Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Morrigan2575]

59 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I don't get why she has to be this "good person" at the expense of the characters/relationships that have been around since S1.

I can only assume that it's for whatever game they're playing with Prometheus. Maybe she has to be "good" because Prometheus corrupts her which shows that Oliver destroys everyone around him, like in 509. Of course that still (and probably nothing ever will) explain why they writer and played the character as shady. 

[Belinea]

6 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

SA replied: "Based off this season so far and what we know, Oliver has been wrong to trust Evelyn. And that's it so far." 

Well, he can add Chase to that list now as well.

[insomniadreams88]

When Oliver has been stupid in the past, at least I could see that he still cared about the others. But now, it seems like once he started "caring" about Susan, he stopped caring about the others. 

Are we to believe he's going to go as crazy as he did last year when Darhk actually took people he cared about now that this reporter has been kidnapped? Who knows how it'll be played out on-screen.

Oliver needs a wake-up call. Maybe it'll come if Susan betrays him, and he rescues her only to find out she was a distraction and Chase has done something else/gone after someone else. 

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Belinea said:

Well, he can add Chase to that list now as well.

I don't even think he was wrong to trust Chase. From what Oliver's seen he's been nothing but trustworthy. 

Susie's given him reason to not trust her. Repeatedly. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Maybe the wake up call will be realizing that he kept close people that will end up betraying him (Chase, reporter) and he drove away people that love him and he loves (Thea, Felicity).

The problem is I could see this idea working well on a movie, not on a show. I can deal with a hour of the lead character being stupid and not thinking about his loved ones, not months and months. It's not worth it.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[insomniadreams88]

I almost wish Susan has been recording all their conversations and the team got their hands on those recordings and just put on repeat her saying she was going to use the information she uncovered since Oliver just ignored it. Sit him down and play it over the intercom in the lair until it gets through to him. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I almost wish Susan has been recording all their conversations and the team got their hands on those recordings and just put on repeat her saying she was going to use the information she uncovered since Oliver just ignored it. Sit him down and play it over the intercom in the lair until it gets through to him. 

I lost any hope when at the beginning of the last episode when she told him she couldn't out him because he trashed her reputation and no one was going to believe her now he apologized and told her he was trying to fix it. LOL

[ComicFan777]

With Oliver not listening to Thea and Felicity, it makes me think of what Felicity said to Oliver in S3: "I just think sometimes...you forget to see that there are people who love you."  It's just another lesson Oliver is going to have to re-learn this season.

[statsgirl]

Seriously, get a neuropsycho consult. With the number of times he has to re=learn lessons, there has to be something worng.

25 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I lost any hope when at the beginning of the last episode when she told him she couldn't out him because he trashed her reputation and no one was going to believe her now he apologized and told her he was trying to fix it.

So he was desperate to fix her reputation so that she would be listened to when she outed him?  LOL indeed.  (See neuropsycho consult above.)

43 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I can only assume that it's for whatever game they're playing with Prometheus. Maybe she has to be "good" because Prometheus corrupts her which shows that Oliver destroys everyone around him, like in 509. Of course that still (and probably nothing ever will) explain why they writer and played the character as shady. 

My guess is that they wanted her to be shady enough that she can be corrupted, unlike Diggle or Felicity, but not so shady that Prometheus wouldn't have to do any work on her.  As has been oft said, this show doesn't do subtle.  The only way in which Susan is good is in Oliver's delusional mind.

Edited March 4, 2017 by statsgirl

[Guest]

If this was another show, I'd almost believe they were dangling Susan as a distraction for Oliver while Felicity falls deeper into Helix. So Oliver's "light" (I hate that light metaphor but he did call her that in his proposal) gets drawn to the darkness and he'll realize too late and have a case of the sads.

But then I remember it's Arrow. LOL.

[theOAfc]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

If this was another show, I'd almost believe they were dangling Susan as a distraction for Oliver while Felicity falls deeper into Helix. So Oliver's "light" (I hate that light metaphor but he did call her that in his proposal) gets drawn to the darkness and he'll realize too late and have a case of the sads.

But then I remember it's Arrow. LOL.

LOL indeed.

[Midnight Lullaby]

9 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

So he was desperate to fix her reputation so that she would be listened to when she outed him?  LOL indeed.  (See neuropsycho consult above.)

 

I imagine the idea of that scene was to show that he wanted to help her because she was just a good reporter doing her job (suuuure, writers) but she kept going on about being mad no one was going to believe her if she told the truth about him to his face..at least if she said she didn't even want to out him I could have said he had a reason to believe she wasn't going to and he wasn't crazy to want to help her but she only looked very determined to write her article to me.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[statsgirl]

But  who can blame Felicity for going deeper into Helix?  She looks so happy in those promo pictures.  This is finally something she loves doing and feels comfortable with after the past year of suck.

Thea's gone, Rory's gone, and it's not like Oliver or Diggle give a damn about her other than to make sure she stays on that "light" pedestal.

[insomniadreams88]

13 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

If this was another show, I'd almost believe they were dangling Susan as a distraction for Oliver while Felicity falls deeper into Helix. So Oliver's "light" (I hate that light metaphor but he did call her that in his proposal) gets drawn to the darkness and he'll realize too late and have a case of the sads.

But then I remember it's Arrow. LOL.

Sadly yes. And the thing is, the way they're writing Felicity and how the others are treating her this year, I don't even care if Helix is evil because they might at least appreciate her. She's happy in the photos and I don't think we've seen her that happy in too long. She deserves that.

At least Rory cared about her. The others seem to see her as tech support and nothing else and someone they tell she has to be good because that's what they need from her. It really seems to be about what others need from her and that's it. Never mind what she needs. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[Guest]

I care that Helix is awful though. Her ending up there is not going to be a good thing because it's a shady organization (and very likely linked to Prometheus). So she's either going to realize what a huge mistake she's made at some point or she's going to need saving. It's not really what I wanted for her tbh. 

It's difficult because on one hand I'm pleased Felicity is getting her own thing to do but at the same time I feel like it's only happening to paint her as being the one in the wrong (same with what happened with Thea). I really do think they want Oliver to be the one who has the moral high ground this season and is always right so I can't help but feel it's gonna be messy.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Guest

[Trisha]

10 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Sadly yes. And the thing is, the way they're writing Felicity and how the others are treating her this year, I don't even care if Helix is evil because they might at least appreciate her. She's happy in the photos and I don't think we've seen her that happy in too long. She deserves that.

At least Rory cared about her. The others seem to see her as tech support and nothing else and someone they tell she has to be good because that's what they need from her. It really seems to be about what others need from her and that's it. Never mind what she needs. 

Exactly. I would love for this supposed "adult conversation" that's coming up to be her justifying joining another team because her current team didn't seem to realize that she was drowning. I want her to bring up that she's been struggling with Havenrock, losing her job, her mom moving, her dad being on the lam again, Billy dying, etc. and through it all no one checked in on her or asked how she was dealing with everything. I doubt it'll happen but it would be nice. (And it would explain her headspace. She was just as much of a pod person in 5a as Oliver.) 

[Mrs. de Winter]

8 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Sadly yes. And the thing is, the way they're writing Felicity and how the others are treating her this year, I don't even care if Helix is evil because they might at least appreciate her. She's happy in the photos and I don't think we've seen her that happy in too long. She deserves that.

This times a million.  And this is why I am against any "mature" conversation with Oliver.  Screw Oliver who only remembers she exists when he wants something from her.  Can't Roy or Rory come back and help her?  It is ridiculous that to find someone who seems to care for Felicity just because she is Felicity I have to hope someone who has left the show comes back.   But I haven't seen any sign that anyone on the current team gives a damn about Felicity.  They care about what she can do for them and that she makes them feel better about themselves, but not about her. 

When I saw that picture of her with Helix I tried to think of another time this year that she has looked that happy and - - nothing.  "Team" Arrow does a million questionable things - so why should I care if she now does questionable things for Helix instead of "team" Arrow? 

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

When I saw that picture of her with Helix I tried to think of another time this year that she has looked that happy and - - nothing.  "Team" Arrow does a million questionable things - so why should I care if she now does questionable things for Helix instead of "team" Arrow? 

Wild guess: Seems like Helix is gonna stongarm her into doing their questionable things, and they probably aren't going to be for the greater good. 

[Mrs. de Winter]

10 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Wild guess: Seems like Helix is gonna stongarm her into doing their questionable things, and they probably aren't going to be for the greater good. 

Oh, no doubt.  Felicity will be show to be dumb and stupid for trusting them and betraying poor, poor Oliver. 

But then again, Oliver has done work for Argus and we have been told they don't always do good things so it will depend on just how questionable the things are that Helix wants her to do.  Right now based on what we have seen on the show I have no reason to want her with Team Arrow, so why not give Helix a try?

And I am guessing my wanting Felicity with Helix is not the writer's intent - but rather another unintended consequence of poor, plot point writing. 

[BkWurm1]

40 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Exactly. I would love for this supposed "adult conversation" that's coming up to be her justifying joining another team because her current team didn't seem to realize that she was drowning. I want her to bring up that she's been struggling with Havenrock, losing her job, her mom moving, her dad being on the lam again, Billy dying, etc. and through it all no one checked in on her or asked how she was dealing with everything. I doubt it'll happen but it would be nice. (And it would explain her headspace. She was just as much of a pod person in 5a as Oliver.) 

A question.  Felicity officially joined Helix.  But nothing I've seen or read suggests she's switching teams, just adding Helix to her bag of tricks.  Is that the general consensus with everyone?  I see posts like this that phrase it as "joining another team" and it makes it sound like she's leaving Team Arrow, but even her explanation for why she was joining Helix was so that she'd be even more helpful in having Team Arrow's back, not distancing herself.  

1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I imagine the idea of that scene was to show that he wanted to help her because she was just a good reporter doing her job (suuuure, writers) but she kept going on about being mad no one was going to believe her if she told the truth about him to his face..at least if she said she didn't even want to out him I could have said he had a reason to believe she wasn't going to and he wasn't crazy to want to help her but she only looked very determined to write her article to me.

You know what frustrates me is why didn't she publish proof that Oliver Queen was in Russia at least part of the time during his five years away?  I was really looking forward to how the show was going to tackled that, instead it wasted what would have been really compelling on it's own and traded up to her finding out his secret identity.  Which by now is repetitive and kinda boring.  

She would have been a much more interesting character if she actually did present the tough questions without the show going so far as having her find out about the mask.  Wouldn't Mayor Queen lying about his time away have been a big enough scandal on it's own?  That would have been a genuinely interesting story and one that I could imagine her setting aside if she developed real feelings...but again we would have needed to see her actually setting aside the story, not double down on digging deeper and then actually getting Mayor Queen on record about the subject.    

Edited March 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[theOAfc]

24 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

They care about what she can do for them and that she makes them feel better about themselves, but not about her. 

This is why i mainly saw Olicity as a one sided relationship. I had hopes that in season 4 they would balance it and while at the start they seemed to be heading that way,showing the mutual love and support, they kinda ruined it eventually by pretty much tainting the dynamic for good. 

Quote

Oh, no doubt.  Felicity will be show to be dumb and stupid for trusting them and betraying poor, poor Oliver. 

100% accurate.

Edited March 4, 2017 by theOAfc

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

Oh, no doubt.  Felicity will be show to be dumb and stupid for trusting them and betraying poor, poor Oliver. 

Nothing else about Helix (so far) has been tied to Oliver, so hopefully if she winds up being wrong for trusting them it's because they're her version of Chase, and setting her up for something.

[Chaser]

I think Felicity is going to initially question but then accept their methods so she can use Helix to go after Prometheus. 

They talked about her finding a purpose outside of the Team, her purpose wouldn't be evil so I'm thinking after Prometheus she is going to takeover Helix and change their methods.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Chaser

[thegirlsleuth]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

If this was another show, I'd almost believe they were dangling Susan as a distraction for Oliver while Felicity falls deeper into Helix. So Oliver's "light" (I hate that light metaphor but he did call her that in his proposal) gets drawn to the darkness and he'll realize too late and have a case of the sads.

But then I remember it's Arrow. LOL.

I so wanted this to be the case. I sort of wondered if she would spend the rest of the season slowly dropping into darkness and has to go with them at the end of the season to try to make it right--everyone else has had their summer away to grapple with their demons, so why not her?  But they aren't going to dedicate any time to this plot so I think that Felicity will sort of compromise herself, but not really because the show really won't try anything truly daring, until Oliver has to step in and save her.   

What I find so strange about the Helix thing is that in the past Felicity would have been able to find all this information on her own, possibly at a slightly slower pace, but usually just as quickly.  So I don't get exactly why she needs them, although I can see her enjoying being a part of something again, since she seems so alienated from the team.  I found it interesting that going to visit Helix is the first time in several episodes that she's stepped foot outside the lair, and for that alone I was cheering her on.  

[leopardprint]

Quote

15 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Wouldn't Mayor Queen lying about his time away have been a big enough scandal on it's own?

 

She's such a good reporter that she is simultaneously in a relationship with the subject of her reporting and also NOT reporting that the mayor is a member of a criminal organization.  She's Pulitzer worthy. 

I will admit it could be kind of interesting to see how the writers get out of the corner they have painted themselves into but they will probably just abandon her there. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by leopardprint
typos

[Mrs. de Winter]

12 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Nothing else about Helix (so far) has been tied to Oliver, so hopefully if she winds up being wrong for trusting them it's because they're her version of Chase, and setting her up for something.

I admire your ability to watch this show and still be hopeful :)

It would be nice and very preferable if it had nothing to do with Oliver.  I wish the show valued Felicity enough to let a story be about her.  But didn't WM say something about Felicity learning what Oliver has been through - or something equally infuriating (I admit I can no longer listen to her directly)?  And the dreaded mature conversation is coming too.  So Oliver is part of it somehow - which, given what they just did with Oliver and Thea, probably doesn't bode well for Felicity. 

[BkWurm1]

The mature conversation I'm sure is just a "hey, just checking in, how ya doing?  I'm here if you need anything cause you're a big girl and I won't tell you what to do even though me finally checking is me saying I think you are making a mistake."

[insomniadreams88]

I'm expecting a "you should have told me from the beginning." "When? When you were busy with mayor stuff, asking me to fix your relationship, etc.? You haven't been around." "You still should have told me. That's on you." 

[way2interested]

30 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

This times a million.  And this is why I am against any "mature" conversation with Oliver.  Screw Oliver who only remembers she exists when he wants something from her.  Can't Roy or Rory come back and help her?  It is ridiculous that to find someone who seems to care for Felicity just because she is Felicity I have to hope someone who has left the show comes back.   But I haven't seen any sign that anyone on the current team gives a damn about Felicity.  They care about what she can do for them and that she makes them feel better about themselves, but not about her. 

When I saw that picture of her with Helix I tried to think of another time this year that she has looked that happy and - - nothing.  "Team" Arrow does a million questionable things - so why should I care if she now does questionable things for Helix instead of "team" Arrow? 

Idk, I think Oliver listening and doing what Felicity asks him to in 501-503, asking her if she's alright in 502, defending her to Rory in 504, confronting her about why she kept her bf a secret in 505, promising her personally that he'll save Billy in 509, being concerned that she was putting herself in danger because of her reaction to Billy's death in 510, seeing something's up with her in 512, etc. as remembering she exits other when he wants something from her. Diggle's talk showed that he was concerned for her. Even if it seems like he was putting her in a "good" box (which I didn't see it that way, but ymmv), I don't necessarily see how it's completely selfish for wanting someone to remain empathetic and not to fight fire with fire? All of the people she listed who decided to embrace that dark side got burned at some point and Diggle doesn't want that for her, which I don't think is him wanting to feel better about himself.

There is a lack of caring for all of the characters, tbh, but I don't see it as an "all or nothing" thing. Not having enough doesn't equal not at all.   

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

It would be nice and very preferable if it had nothing to do with Oliver.  I wish the show valued Felicity enough to let a story be about her.  But didn't WM say something about Felicity learning what Oliver has been through - or something equally infuriating (I admit I can no longer listen to her directly)?  And the dreaded mature conversation is coming too.  So Oliver is part of it somehow - which, given what they just did with Oliver and Thea, probably doesn't bode well for Felicity. 

My recollection about most of what's been said is that this storyline was going to be about her ultimately being willing to do any/everything to go after Prometheus, and that her experience is ultimately going to help her understand Oliver better. My guess about the conversation based solely on the song tease MG did the other day is that it's just going to be Oliver expressing concern and letting her know that he's there for her if she wants to talk to him. And I'm gonna guess she won't, because plot and outside of plot because based on the recent talking points, they might be revisiting the fact that she doesn't really trust him. 

[ComicFan777]

Quote

What I find so strange about the Helix thing is that in the past Felicity would have been able to find all this information on her own, possibly at a slightly slower pace, but usually just as quickly.

I think Helix has been collecting data from everywhere for a long time (ie. I think Kujo mentioned that Helix had downloaded the info from the NSA a month before it was deleted), so it's not really a matter of Felicity's skill level, it's more of a matter of checking if Helix got access to the needed data before it was erased from any accessible online system. 

[Morrigan2575]

26 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I think Felicity is going to initially question but then accept their methods so she can use Helix to go after Prometheus. 

They talked about her finding a purpose outside of the Team, her purpose wouldn't be evil so I'm thinking after Prometheus she is going to takeover Helix and change their methods.

I like that spec, i hope you're right 

[Trisha]

38 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

A question.  Felicity officially joined Helix.  But nothing I've seen or read suggests she's switching teams, just adding Helix to her bag of tricks.  Is that the general consensus with everyone?  I see posts like this that phrase it as "joining another team" and it makes it sound like she's leaving Team Arrow, but even her explanation for why she was joining Helix was so that she'd be even more helpful in having Team Arrow's back, not distancing herself.  

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that's she's leaving Team Arrow, I just think she'll also be in another team at the same time. Pretty much everyone else seems to have a day job now except her, so I can see her working with Helix filling that void for her. Until it all goes horribly wrong of course. I like the theory that she'll end up taking it over and changing it like Lyla with Argus (though I'd much prefer her going back to PT or starting Smoak Tech and getting back to her plan to mass produce her chip - if the writers even remember that).

[Sunshine]

Reaching maybe in hindsight, but here goes.  Chase said he's 10 steps ahead.  This is psychological warfare.  The end game seems to be torturing Oliver, not killing.  Those associated are only pawns and/or collateral damage.  With human pawns you can usually predict how they will react based on prior behavior but never with 100% accuracy.

Not sure why Lance is set up.  It actually resulted in a good result for Lance. I guess it could have gone the other way.

Thea doesn't appear to have been used by Chase.

5.06 called out Oliver as a serial killer. Let the game begin.  It resulted in a newbie defecting and betraying the team eventually.  Providing Chase with information he didn't know previously.

Curtis was targeted just to provide info to Oliver so he could join in on the game.  If Rory or Rene had been there they would have been the target.

Was Christopher Chance/Human Target a pawn or cohort of Prometheus?  Was Susan a Prometheus pawn from the very beginning?  She's a reporter looking for a big story on Oliver Queen.  She is aware of the existence of Christopher Chance/Human Target.  Chance charms Susan Williams as Oliver Queen.  Chance gives Oliver her number and tells him Felicity has moved on.  Could be the move of a buddy.  Could be more.  Susan pursues Oliver.  He finally accepts.  Susan continues to investigate. Susan doesn't out Oliver which was probably the idea.  It doesn't work so Chase manipulates Oliver into throwing Green Arrow under the bus.  Green Arrow has been discredited. Now to use Susan to torture Oliver.  

Prometheus sets up Green Arrow to kill Detective Billy Malone by encouraging a shoot-to-kill order for Prometheus.  Billy was dead anyway when he got too close but maybe the idea is to drive Felicity away.  It didn't work.  Next up Black Siren.  Then Prometheus or Felicity?  Oliver chooses Felicity, even at the expense of the LL doppleganger.   

Diggle is setup to be apprehended.  Chase agrees to defend and drops info about how the the NSA has info on Gen Walker.  Felicity Smoak hacks the NSA.  The info she needs has already been removed from the server. Fangirl Kojo makes contact immediately. Coincidence or another chess move?  Kojo appeals to Felicity's ego. She makes her feel appreciated.  She gives her access to Pandora. Felicity is now getting into bed with Helix for what she considers the greater good.  Based on that :45 second scene she's going into it a little idealistically.  Assuming this is another Prometheus move, if Felicity loses her humanity while Oliver is busy saving Susan, it's another life ruined due to association with Oliver. WM did say Felicity would have a profound understanding of Oliver.  

I'd like to believe Helix is just a coincidence, a way for Felicity to be able to go after Prometheus in her own way, but it looks to me like it's just payoff for another of Chase's chess moves. Doesn't mean it won't give Felicity some development.   If the speculation about Samantha being the girl that went home with Oliver instead of Chase 12 years ago turns out to be true (and Chase really cared about her) the idea of keeping Oliver and Felicity apart might have added appeal to Chase.

IIRC, Felicity is going to discover she had a hand in the origin of Helix.  Not sure if that was from 5.12 scene with Kojo or something else because I thought WM's interview came out after that.  I think if Felicity discovered that she would definitely want to change their methods once Prometheus is dealt with.

His next target is probably Dinah, since he just discovered her connection in 5.15.  Evelyn is probably the manipulator or pawn in 5.18.  

[statsgirl]

If these writers were good, they would tie Felicity joining Helix into the fact that no one on her team seems to care about her (see the ending of 5x09 and Diggle and Oliver patronizing her), and a feeling of helplessness. She always wanted to do good but she lost her job at PT over wanting to make the biochip available to everyone and what she can do from the bunker is not enough.

But the writers aren't that good.

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

I think Felicity is going to initially question but then accept their methods so she can use Helix to go after Prometheus. 

They talked about her finding a purpose outside of the Team, her purpose wouldn't be evil so I'm thinking after Prometheus she is going to takeover Helix and change their methods.

I like the hopefulness of that but I think WM forgot she ever said anything about Felicity going after Prometheus.  Plus if she uses Helix to take down Prometheus after he caused Billy to be killed and Oliver and Diggle chastise her for that, it's going to be the biggest hypocrisy this show has ever done.

Yeah, that's the level that Oliver's been functioning at this year with Thea and Felicity.  There better be a big payoff like a major depression to explain this crap.

2 hours ago, way2interested said:

Idk, I think Oliver listening and doing what Felicity asks him to in 501-503, asking her if she's alright in 502, defending her to Rory in 504, confronting her about why she kept her bf a secret in 505, promising her personally that he'll save Billy in 509, being concerned that she was putting herself in danger because of her reaction to Billy's death in 510, seeing something's up with her in 512, etc. as remembering she exits other when he wants something from her. Diggle's talk showed that he was concerned for her. Even if it seems like he was putting her in a "good" box (which I didn't see it that way, but ymmv), I don't necessarily see how it's completely selfish for wanting someone to remain empathetic and not to fight fire with fire? All of the people she listed who decided to embrace that dark side got burned at some point and Diggle doesn't want that for her, which I don't think is him wanting to feel better about himself.

There is a lack of caring for all of the characters, tbh, but I don't see it as an "all or nothing" thing. Not having enough doesn't equal not at all.   

Once Oliver found out in 505 that Felicity wasn't going to get back with him, he's treated her as a co-worker, someone he doesn't give the amount of concern to that he does to Diggle. Since he's been "romantically" involved with Susan, she doesn't even get that. The last time I saw Oliver actually seeing Felicity as a person was at the end of 5x10.  Since then it's all been because he doesn't want to have to think about her, he wants her frozen in amber as the tech tool he needs.

Diggle's talk showed that he was concerned that Felicity was going to fall off the pedestal they've put her on, not how she feels or why she might fall.  It was all "Yeah, I know you're still upset about Billy but you need to be better than this."  Thanks, Mr. I-killed-my-own-brother.

2 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think Helix has been collecting data from everywhere for a long time (ie. I think Kujo mentioned that Helix had downloaded the info from the NSA a month before it was deleted), so it's not really a matter of Felicity's skill level, it's more of a matter of checking if Helix got access to the needed data before it was erased from any accessible online system. 

Was that a political statement about the EPA data being deleted?  Probably just coincidence.

35 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

IIRC, Felicity is going to discover she had a hand in the origin of Helix.  Not sure if that was from 5.12 scene with Kojo or something else because I thought WM's interview came out after that.

It would be the perfect parallel to Oliver creating Prometheus.  But I don't think these writers are smart enough to realize that any more.

Edited March 4, 2017 by statsgirl

[way2interested]

40 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

Diggle is setup to be apprehended.  Chase agrees to defend and drops info about how the the NSA has info on Gen Walker.  Felicity Smoak hacks the NSA.  The info she needs has already been removed from the server. Fangirl Kojo makes contact immediately. Coincidence or another chess move?  Kojo appeals to Felicity's ego. She makes her feel appreciated.  She gives her access to Pandora. Felicity is now getting into bed with Helix for what she considers the greater good.  Based on that :45 second scene she's going into it a little idealistically.  Assuming this is another Prometheus move, if Felicity loses her humanity while Oliver is busy saving Susan, it's another life ruined due to association with Oliver. WM did say Felicity would have a profound understanding of Oliver.  

I'd like to believe Helix is just a coincidence, a way for Felicity to be able to go after Prometheus in her own way, but it looks to me like it's just payoff for another of Chase's chess moves. Doesn't mean it won't give Felicity some development.   If the speculation about Samantha being the girl that went home with Oliver instead of Chase 12 years ago turns out to be true (and Chase really cared about her) the idea of keeping Oliver and Felicity apart might have added appeal to Chase.

IIRC, Felicity is going to discover she had a hand in the origin of Helix.  Not sure if that was from 5.12 scene with Kojo or something else because I thought WM's interview came out after that.  I think if Felicity discovered that she would definitely want to change their methods once Prometheus is dealt with.

She really wasn't making Felicity feel appreciated though in 511, though.  She actually passively insulted Felicity by basically telling her that her life has been wasted since she quit being a hacktivist, since she doesn't know that Felicity's been working with the GA. Still appealing to her ego, but more in a goading way, like, "you'd be better off if you did things this way," not really in an appreciative way, unless she does things their way. I think it will be more of that. Like, she'll do some things the way they want but the moment she doesn't want to they threaten to take Pandora away, but I basically agree.

44 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Once Oliver found out in 505 that Felicity wasn't going to get back with him, he's treated her as a co-worker, someone he doesn't give the amount of concern to that he does to Diggle. Since he's been "romantically" involved with Susan, she doesn't even get that. The last time I saw Oliver actually seeing Felicity as a person was at the end of 5x10.  Since then it's all been because he doesn't want to have to think about her, he wants her frozen in amber as the tech tool he needs.

 Treating her as a co-worker still doesn't mean "not remembering she exits only when he wants something," which I thought was a somewhat demeaning exaggeration and what I was arguing. One can still argue that his concern for Felicity is less than Diggle, that's a ymmv opinion. Same concept here, you can argue for the extent he cares, and for the lack of execution of that, but do you actually believe that Oliver hasn't seen Felicity as a person since 510? Exaggerations to make a point are one thing, but to make them as facts for arguments are kind of hard for me to take seriously. Again, there's an argument to be made for every character not caring about the other characters in specific instances, so the idea that Oliver doesn't care much about Felicity can still be applied to many different character relationships for this whole season, but I'm not jumping in to say that they all think that each other are tools or less than people.

55 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Diggle's talk showed that he was concerned that Felicity was going to fall off the pedestal they've put her on, not how she feels or why she might fall.  It was all "Yeah, I know you're still upset about Billy but you need to be better than this."  Thanks, Mr. I-killed-my-own-brother.

How is being concerned that she might not be a good person anymore that she always has been putting her on a pedestal? It's like a parent or a family relative telling you "I expected more from you" when you're in trouble. It's not so much that they're putting you on a pedestal as much as reflecting on how bad this instance is compared to how you've normally been. Him making certain remarks is awkward because they never really talked about the fact he killed his brother, but that's still an execution problem, not a "Diggle is being patronizing/selfish/putting Felicity on a pedestal" problem.

[statsgirl]

I'll reply in the Bromance thread since it's not about spoilers.

[LeighAn]

5x10 Oliver directly expressed concern about where her head space is at, her grief over Billy and the fact that she could get hurt making the choices she was making re: BS

5x11 Oliver expressed concern over how Felicity got Diggle out of jail and asked if there was something she wasn't telling him

5x12 Oliver spent the whole episode freaked out over both Felicity and Diggles head space and the fact that they seem to be following down his path. He seemed particularly frustrated that he knew something was wrong with Felicity but not what was going on with her. 

5x13-14-15 were light but that's because Olivers attention has been drawn else where.

I get people wanting the best for Felicity because they love her as a character. But do people realise some the things you are wishing Oliver or the team would do are things Felicity actively doesn't want right now. 

Felicity is the most giving person in terms of emotional empathy and support when it comes to other people. When it comes to her own emotional needs however her characterisation has been consistent in the fact that she doesn't let people close to her pain unless she makes the choice to allow them.

She bottles up, she keeps it in, she puts on a facade or front of being fine and throws herself vigorously into work or some new endeavour. I mean she changed her entire personality after believing her boyfriend had committed sucide. When it comes to her own feelings/pain she's pretty big on compartmentalising. 

Right now she's going down a rabbit hole with Felix and she seems aware that they might be less then savoury but she wants to keep on going down that hole anyway.

The most Oliver and Diggle can do is what have been doing is caution express concern remind her of who she is and let her know that when's she's ready they'll be there for her until Felicity herself is ready for more. 

I do think that Oliver and Diggle need to also accept that Felicity shouldn't and doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal as being their "moral light" that they use to help them feel better about themselves when they do morally questionable things. They need to accept that she has as much right as anyone on this team to be affected by what goes on around her and to be a little dark her self. I do think that it patronises Felicity a little bit that they expect her to be held to a standard they don't hold themselves or others because she is suppose to be the one that's better then them.

However I don't think that undermines the fact that they do care for and want the best  for and from Felicity and can see she's not in a good place even though she insists there's nothing for them to see here. 

I think whatever Helix get Felicity to do and/or keep doing for them that will be the turning point when Felicity will start to crack and Oliver and Diggle will start to try and reach out to her in a more significant way. 

[dtissagirl]

18 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

However I don't think that undermines the fact that they do care for and want the best  for and from Felicity and can see she's not in a good place even though she insists there's nothing for them to see here. 

This isn't the problem for me. The problem imo with Felicity's storyline has less to do with characterization and motivation, and more to do with the narrative structure is fucked up again, because these hacks cannot streamline a storyline to save their lives. She's ready to die in a nuclear explosion in episode 12, for crying out loud oh my god there's your "going dark" main beat... and then there's just busywork in episodes 13 and 14 because they need her joining Helix cliffhanger to be in episode 15. It's legit shit structuring.

And it's the exact same shitty structure that gave Prometheus a vacation for however many episodes he missed, because these writers truly believe it's all right to stop narrative momentum to deal with Black Siren and America's Black Canary and Wild Dong and his phallic gun obsession and Oliver's love life with shady reporter. And it IS the fact that the structure is rotten that makes Oliver look like a moron about Prometheus, and that make him look like he's not paying attention to Felicity going down the rabbit role. Because the momentum keeps getting interrupted and he's like a kid with ADD distracted by a butterfly outside the classroom window.

Edited March 4, 2017 by dtissagirl

[LeighAn]

Just now, dtissagirl said:

This isn't the problem for me. The problem imo with Felicity's storyline has less to do with characterization and motivation, and more to do with the narrative structure is fucked up again, because these hacks cannot streamline a storyline to save their lives. She's ready to die in a nuclear explosion in episode 12, for crying out loud oh my god there's your "going dark" main beat... and then there's just busywork in episodes 13 and 14 because they need her joining Helix cliffhanger to be in episode 15. It's legit shit structuring.

And it's the exact same shitty structure that gave Prometheus a vacation for however the episodes he missed, because these writers truly believe it's all right to stop narrative momentum to deal with Black Siren and America's Black Canary and Wild Dong and his phallic gun obsession and Oliver's love life with shady reporter. And it IS the fact that the structure is rotten that makes Oliver look like a moron about Prometheus, and that make him look like he's not paying attention to Felicity going down the rabbit role. Because the momentum keeps getting interrupted and he's like a kid with add distracted by a butterfly outside the classroom windown.

On pacing the show has always sucked no doubt. They spend too much time on things that don't matter and rush through the things that do.

Thats always been an issue on the show. My point was mainly on how Felicitys characterisation kind of contradicts what others want in terms of emotional support. In that she's not good at wanting emotional support from others around her pain *shrug*

Also I agree that they should have put greater emphasis on Felicity ready to sacrifice her life in 5x12, but her story has played kind of subtly in that it's more seeds planting each Ep then something at the fore front so I'm hoping next ep and finally joining Helix will ramp it up a few hundred notches.

[statsgirl]

9 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

She's ready to die in a nuclear explosion in episode 12, for crying out loud oh my god there's your "going dark" main beat...

But, but, it couldn't have been that bad or Oliver or Diggle would have noticed what a bad state she's in.  Rory certainly did.

Black Siren came before Felicity was willing to die to save people but the gun episode plus two episodes of Shady Susan and Oliver's desperation to get back into her bed is inexcusable.

But I don't think they really do intent to write Felicity a decent Dark Arc. They'll do a few reminders and then pull it out when Oliver needs it for his and Susan's storyline.

[theOAfc]

6 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I get people wanting the best for Felicity because they love her as a character. But do people realise some the things you are wishing Oliver or the team would do are things Felicity actively doesn't want right now. 

Yeah i mean this isnt about what Felicity wants that's the issue. This is about how certain people around her should show more concern/care. I dont think we are supposed to assume that they know her the best and respect her wish to shut down and be all alone untill she feels better. Not only the show didnt bother to imply that at all,but thats not really how people act when it comes to loved ones. Normally people try to be there and have their loved ones open up,or to at least let them know they are there for them and make sure they are not struggling all alone. I mean Felicity is always trying to have oliver open up and share his struggles with her even though he also tends to not talk about it unless asked. 

And its not like Felicity specifically told them to allow her some me time to figure things out alone. That would require for her to actually let them know she is struggling. They never asked more than once anyway. Which is the whole point. And if we are to assume she was asked off screen again and again and refused help,then the show clearly fails to highlight her need to be alone. 

Whatever the writers plans or intentions are,it seems like Dig and Oliver simply dont bother to be there for her,rather than them respecting her or allowing her to be alone like she wants. Its also certain actions that show Oliver doesnt think at all about her emotional state. Like him asking her to give advice over his relationship with Susan,after he was questioning her with a tone in 5x14 asking if she hacked to help Thea. How are viewers supposed to think he cares at all when he is busy manpaining over his relationship with a shady reporter her met like yesterday, when he is literally going to her ,whose boyfriend he killed months ago,for relationship advice? Doesnt he think that maybe she is struggling with all this mess? And if he does,then why is he still more buzy with his own manpain,even going to her expecting to ease his own pain when he knows she is struggling? Making it once again about his personal struggles? Its fucked up. lol

There's respecting someone's wish to be left alone and cope with their own mechanism and then there's putting your own manpain above other's struggles. To me,it seems like the show either fails to show the former or wants to show the latter. But it comes off a certain way.

Its also that most of the times when someone doesnt want people close to them to help them,its because they dont want to bother them with their issues. Those people close to them,should know better and still insist on being there for them when they are silently struggling. Human nature and all...

[Midnight Lullaby]

But the point, at least for me, isn't the fact that Felicity has been written as someone that doesn't like to share her troubles but the fact that her friends don't even ask "are you okay?". And imo that's what people should do when they care about someone and they know they are have been through a lot. Even if they think she is going to turn them down at least ask, to know for sure she knows they are there for her. It's a way of showing support. It's not about Felicity's characterization, it's the other characters' characterization that suffers, because of the plot, if they don't try to be there for her. She needs to be isolated for plot so they need to act as people that don't even try when I think in the past they have showed more empathy.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Sunshine]

I just re-watched 5.15.

For anyone trying to figure out who Vigilante is, Pike was not at the press conference when Vigilante was going to take him out. I read somewhere that he was which ruled him out so I looked closely.

I wonder if the adult conversation between Oliver & Felicity will be one side (Oliver POV) and commercial/next scene.  The Thea/Oliver scene regarding Susan in 5.14 was really Oliver talking/lecturing and then sitting down like a convo was going to take place.  Thea got a POV to say why she was leaving in 5.15.  Oliver (SA's expression) looked like he failed his sister. 

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

But I don't think they really do intent to write Felicity a decent Dark Arc. They'll do a few reminders and then pull it out when Oliver needs it for his and Susan's storyline.

How dark is the arc going to be when she's joining them basically to help people, especially when the team saving Oliver from Vigilante is what appears to have made up her mind?

[dtissagirl]

10 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Thats always been an issue on the show. My point was mainly on how Felicitys characterisation kind of contradicts what others want in terms of emotional support. In that she's not good at wanting emotional support from others around her pain *shrug*

I agree Felicity sucks at letting others help her, but also, any normal human logic show would put this into text in the episodes in-between the plot-driven beats. But Arrow is written in some sort of insane troll logic language, so I do get it when people in the audience think Oliver doesn't care about what Felicity is going through. This isn't a show that needs to be paid attention at deeper levels of subtlety, it's just really really terribly written.

The other characters needed to have been asking her "are you okay?" a lot. And her putting on the "I'm fine" facade. There is a complete *lack* of writing of Felicity's repression of her feelings, which is another structural problem.

Edited March 4, 2017 by dtissagirl

[LeighAn]

They have had Oliver Diggle Curtis and Rory have the "are you okay what's going on Im concerned" conversation with Felicity whether you like how it's written or if it goes far enough is another thing. But it's been there in the show. So it's not non-existent.

And each time Felicity has listened but not really absorbed their advice, concern, opening to talk. Because she's still eager to go full throttle down the Helix path.

[Midnight Lullaby]

What did Oliver and Curtis tell her that I don't even remember?

[Sunshine]

5 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

What did Oliver and Curtis tell her that I don't even remember?

  According to MG it's supposed to happen but I haven't seen either of them mention it yet.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Sunshine

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, did anyone talk to Felicity about her feelings and/or about Pandora and Helix in 13 or 14? I only remember the stuff in 12 and 15. That's the structural problem I'm talking about. 

[wonderwall]

I'm just gonna leave this here...