Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Velocity23]

I am so glad Manu isnt returning. Especially after seeing his bitterness.

[Chaser]

I get the difference between marketing and the show and I'm willing to wait and see before I figure out if House is an appropriate example. I just really hope it isn't. 

[Morrigan2575]

37 minutes ago, tarotx said:

Arrow has had new people on the team every season. And every season people quit the team and have to be brought back in or/and to Star(ling). The only difference this season is Oliver is the only fighter on the team now and the PR people like to show off the action so it's the Noobs who get attention. Though we know very little about them beyond what Felicity says about them in the trailer. They really aren't getting much either. 

For me, the difference would be ther sheer number added at one time. Especially when they're characters we really know nothing about (excluding Curtis).

They went from 3 to 4/5 in S2 and pretty much stayed there. Yes, the parts were different, substitute Thea for Roy and Laurel for Sara but, that to me is very different from what we're seeing in S5 (at least from spoiler/spec perspective). 

Yeah, there's no saying (until it actually airs) how good/bad these additions might be but the overload of noobs doesn't thrill me.

[dtissagirl]

My main worry re: newbies is narrative roles. I'm always willing to accept new characters if they bring something to the story that entertains me. But Arrow has just gotten rid of the dead weight character they didn't know how to properly write and/or make relevant to the narrative. 

We can probably give Curtis the "maker of gadgets"/Cisco narrative role, but what about Artemis/Wild Dog/Ragman? Do they have a thing to add to the team other than muscle? Do they play specific narrative roles in Oliver/Felicity/Diggle's storylines?

It's this potential figher-fighter-fighter-fighter-fighter-fighter-hacker team that gives me nightmares re: the action/mission/villain of the week procedural they're announcing the season's gonna be like. And I didn't even count Thea there.

[Chaser]

They have tied Wild Dog to Diggle and Ragman to Felicity. But how long is that going to be useful? 

Im not sure the point of Artmeis besides adding a girl. I'm assuming that she is going to be BC's legacy. That's going to get old very fast. 

[tarotx]

Oh I get the frustration but we have always had new fighters. Seeing how they fit into the show is something we won't see until the season airs. Though I get the worry, it's just the large post to Steven made me roll my eyes. The season hasn't aired yet and people are dramatic to the cast of the shows. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Fans are dramatic all the time but there's more than a hint of nervousness and anger this time, I think (me I'm annoyed and yes that's without knowing what's going to happen in the premiere but just from seeing the promos) about losing OTA with all these noobs and I definitely can't blame them. It's also not just the promos, but the BTS, the interviews with the showrunners, etc. Add all these together and the picture I'm getting is all noobs all the time. True, it might not be the case when the episodes actually do finally air, but it's annoying as heck. Felicity and Diggle probably have 2 brief shots each in the promos. And they're not in any of the promo stills that came out (then again, the noobs weren't in the stills either). Stephen and Brian Ford Sullivan can tell people can reassure fans all they want but this is not going to stop until the ep airs or a promo comes out of OTA. Even that may not be enough.

Stephen and, to a lesser extent, David are ... I don't want to say to blame, but they kinda started this when Arrow went into hiatus and the first things they said at the cons was "we're going back to basics" and implied that meant focus back on OTA. They said they think the strength of the show lies in OTA, with David specifically saying the show was at its best when it was just Digg and Oliver as the brawn and Felicity as the brains. I understand they probably had no idea WB would dump every IP out there on the show, but they kinda set up this expectation and I'm not surprised fans are lashing out.

[tangerine95]

Yeah for me the ressuring doesn't help much because we've seen what happens when new people are added and they never added this many people at the same time. I mean I really don't get adding 4 people on the team when one of the biggest complains from both fans and critics was that the team was too big and fight scenes were crowded. I get WB probably wanted them to add masks, but Idk how there wasn't a better way to do it than putting them all on the team at the same time to basically serve the same role that didn't even need filling.

I do think SA and DR like the fans thought back to basics meant back to a smaller team so that's why they were talking about that after the season.I just hope they get rid of at least two newbies.None of them look like they're permanent to me tbh.Their costumes alone don't seem like something they would do for anyone they want to keep imo.

I don't think the newbies will sideline regular characters like Digg and Felicity but I do think they'll sideline interactions between them just like adding other people has in the past. 

[Guest]

For me it's not necessarily the promo focusing on masks or newbies. I know exactly why they're doing that. It's the fact that there is a precedent set that whenever they get a shiny new mask they always focus on them, and it's always at the detriment to characters I already care about and enjoying watching. So I understand the concern. It's not as if this fear is unfounded.

I'm not sure what fan post you're all talking about though. I must've missed something.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Guest

[Morrigan2575]

39 minutes ago, tarotx said:

Oh I get the frustration but we have always had new fighters. Seeing how they fit into the show is something we won't see until the season airs. Though I get the worry, it's just the large post to Steven made me roll my eyes. The season hasn't aired yet and people are dramatic to the cast of the shows. 

I know this is just a matter of perspective but to me it's not about they add fighters all the time. Up to now what Arrow has done is simply replace one narrative character/ structure with another.  Basically they didn't add or change the dynamic, they replaced one version of Speedy  (the sidekick) with another (Roy to Thea). The role stayed the same, sidekick/trainee to Oliver's hero/mentor.

The same thing with Sara/Laurel, granted Laurel in no way had the goods to replace Sara's narrative role.  However, they really did just replace one version of Black Canary with another (lesser, IMO) version.

So right now the question becomes, as @dtissagirl said, what narrative function do they serve? Does Oliver really need 4 new sidekicks/trainees? If not how do they fit in? Yes, Ragman is tied to Felicity's HavenRock storyline but that's not enough, IMO to explain his role on the team. Same with Wild Dog and Artemis.  What role do they perform that seems to require them in every single episode?  

This is where I'm having problems. I was initially accepting of the noobs because I honestly thought they'd have a short arc and then pop up here and there. I figured they'd be used as a filler to give Diggle his Army story and let Thea come to terms with her Malcolm issues and become Thea again.

I guess now that I'm faced with all noobs all the time I'm having an issue dealing. 

[Lily-n11]

There's a new short trailer where Oliver tells Felicity (yay! Olicity scene) "It's more than just putting on a mask."

This plays into my hopes for the season. So far everyone who tried to be a vigilante actually became one and made it to team member. I want someone to realize it's not that easy. I want at least one of the newbies to decide (by their own free will; not dying or be run out of town because circumstances) they're not made for this vigilante life.

In the trailer: looks like a scene with Oliver and Diggle skyping. Double yay!

Edited September 27, 2016 by Lily-n11
grrr typo.

[tarotx]

I love the new trailer. Though I actually love the idea of Oliver training new recruits even though he wishes things were how they used to be. Oliver adapts and I want to see that with the team. 

I too want someone to give up Vigilante work. I think that is what they have planned for Thea this season. I love the idea that she will be more like Moira. I still want Evelyn Sharp to decide that going to school and maybe being a lawyer like Laurel is a better fit for her. She's 17-the same age as Thea was in season 1. Though having it be two girls decide it's not for them is-um-annoying though so I don't know. Fingers crossed that the show will have Curtis decide that tech is his calling more than fighting. I also figure one of the noobies will get killed and/or turn bad. 

I think what will help season 5 be better than the last two is to actually "show" the decision making and how the lifestyle is affecting the characters. A lot of the times we see the actions, pep talks and the drama but we don't really get character insight. Nothing is fleshed out well before they move on. Especially with Felicity. Thea also needs to be shown to be her own women. Her being aa pawn by and to Moira, Malcolm and Oliver has already been played to death. We also need organic team dynamics. Laurel's and Diggle's friendship felt forced. And we need Oliver to be THE or at least a focus of the action scenes he's in.

[looptab]

5 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Stephen and Brian Ford Sullivan can tell people can reassure fans all they want but this is not going to stop until the ep airs or a promo comes out of OTA. Even that may not be enough.

Stephen and, to a lesser extent, David are ... I don't want to say to blame, but they kinda started this when Arrow went into hiatus and the first things they said at the cons was "we're going back to basics" and implied that meant focus back on OTA. They said they think the strength of the show lies in OTA, with David specifically saying the show was at its best when it was just Digg and Oliver as the brawn and Felicity as the brains. I understand they probably had no idea WB would dump every IP out there on the show, but they kinda set up this expectation and I'm not surprised fans are lashing out.

The OTA thing is truly a mistery. I really don't understand why

a) the EPs and writers say they do recognize the importance of it, but it never ends up in anything concrete on the show;

b) the promo people don't milk the hell out of it. Fans talk, ask, and beg about it. Would it be that difficult to put together a promo, even if only to throw us a bone? I mean, as much as some so-called entertainment sites like to think that OTA is a thing and a term only used by certain people, it is a thing. The cast use it, the showrunners use it, the media use it. It's not just fandom. I know the promo people suck, but FFS, they can even use shot from previous seasons for this. I'm starting to think that poster with them before the final stretch of episodes last season must have been a mistake.

Finally, another thing I'm thinking is that David and Stephen do milk it. When they talked about the back to basics thing, the OTA thing might have been just something they added - and not necessarily related to that, and fandom draw the wrong conclusion. Basically, it's not so much them creating false expectations, but us deluding ourselves. :/

Edited September 27, 2016 by looptab

[BkWurm1]

That "green" quote about Felicity's boyfriend (ok Oliver's reaction to him) made me wonder if we are talking Hal Jordon.  

[Morrigan2575]

Don't tease, i don't think poor @quarks could handle another Green Lantern fake out.

Of course  now I'm back to feeling like we're being trolled.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

I find it funny that comic sites are like 'Laurel's last words...what could they mean??"

Other sites: fun little tease...who's Laurel again?

[looptab]

7 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

A spoiler, or the writers messing with the fandom again?

Don't they have that poor continuity chick for this? Did she run for the hills? :)

Seriously though,  if there is some joke in there I definitely don't get it.

[quarks]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

That "green" quote about Felicity's boyfriend (ok Oliver's reaction to him) made me wonder if we are talking Hal Jordon.  

If this happens, I forgive Berlanti EVERYTHING.

(ok, maybe not a couple of the set issues. But almost everything.)

[bijoux]

I just thought it was because Oliver's the Green Arrow and he'll be green with jealousy.

[kismet]

I'm not invested enough to go back and look at the actual wording of the green quote about FS's new BF. But I still believe that it will be some type of joke/gag like a green vibrator or a green pet.

If it is a human, it will probably be Barry or Flashpoint related so it won't matter IMO because it will disappear.

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I just thought it was because Oliver's the Green Arrow and he'll be green with jealousy.

Same. 

[dtissagirl]

What's this "green" quote about the boyfriend, I think I missed it.

[bijoux]

It was a tweet from one of the reviewers.

[looptab]

So, the advanced review for the premiere by GATV..let's play "count the digs" :)

Quote

I will be the first to openly admit that I was a bit harsh on Season 4 of Arrow, and I know I was not the only one here on the site who had been. What I might not have realized at the time, after watching the Season 5 premiere “Legacy” which airs on October 5, is that those feelings and responses from the audience might have been intentional.

It’s not a lie or an exaggeration to suggest that opinions on ArrowSeason 4 were very mixed.

[...]As Season 5 begins, Oliver Queen is broken. He’s harsh and deadly, much like he was before there was a Team Arrow, “original” or otherwise.

[...]Interestingly, a lot of the characters remind me of where they were 5 years ago: John Diggle, while not seen much, is the voice of reason. Felicity isn’t the love interest, but she still has the good heart to try and do what’s right, and she may have a better solution for what to do about the new crop of vigilantes than Oliver has. (We haven’t seen, yet, how she’s going to deal with what happened at Havenrock last year, but it’s been promised).

[...](I should point out one of Star City’s former heroes, the Black Canary, is memorialized with a statue. While not as bad as the infamous Lucille Ball “Scary Lucy” statue, it’s not the most flattering likeness, but it’s the thought that counts, right? We do actually see Katie Cassidy’s Laurel in the premiere, by the way, though her final words will surely be up to interpretation.)

[...]Season 5, at least from the premiere, is not a “shipper show.” Yes, Oliver and Felicity interact. Yes, there is the matter of her new boyfriend. But thankfully, that is on the back burner as the new challenges and mission are at hand. Oliver at this moment is too fractured to be with anyone; the notion that he’ll ultimately listen to old friends and family like Thea, Felicity, and Diggle shows that it is at least possible for him to listen and work with others again. Is he afraid to open his heart after all of the loss from last year? Maybe, but that’s part of the journey that we’ll see.

Everybody relax, thankfully it's not a shipper show!

[dtissagirl]

I always 'ship HARDER when there's no apparent romance going on, so sorry to bring back the cooties, Craig, but EVERY SHOW IS A SHIPPER SHOW.

[bijoux]

@dtissagirl, here's the tweet.

Also, I don't even understand the first paragraph of the GATV review. What international response from the audience? And how does the premiere make him aware of it?

[quarks]

Apparently, the Arrow writers didn't INTEND to get mixed reactions from season four. As soon as we start watching season five, we will all understand this. Maybe.

Also, Felicity was openly checking Oliver out in the first season, lightly flirting with him, and admitting that she'd thought of the two of them in "very platonic circumstances." She might not have been the love interest, but she was a love interest. 

[kismet]

I don't trust Tiffany Vogt. I don't think she has the skills/abilities to properly watch, analyze & write about TV shows for a mass audience or legitimate site. I know every reviewer has a bias, but hers blinds her to doing her job at even a basic level.

I have no idea either what that 1st paragraph in the GATV review was supposed to mean. It was more convoluted than usual.

[Morrigan2575]

Well, no one can ever accuse that dude of being passive/aggressive LOL

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Also, I don't even understand the first paragraph of the GATV review. What international response from the audience? And how does the premiere make him aware of it?

Wasn't he the one who wrote something about everyone losing everything in S5 and S5 is the journey of getting it back again? I guess maybe he's saying that TPTB intended for S4 to be awful, because S5 is about making things not awful again. Or something. 

[Chaser]

You forgot a dig. He pointed out Felicity is now not a love interest and says her good heart is central. Once you remove the love interest role, she can be likable and important again! Yay! *eye-roll*

Two screeners tweeted last night. One all in emojis. The last emoji was the angry one. One said the second to last scene made her FURIOUS. I wonder if they were angry about the same thing. 

My guesses: Something happens to Paul or Sara is switched with Connor. 

[looptab]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Wasn't he the one who wrote something about everyone losing everything in S5 and S5 is the journey of getting it back again? I guess maybe he's saying that TPTB intended for S4 to be awful, because S5 is about making things not awful again. Or something. 

Yeah, I think that's what he means. But it is  a truly awfully written paragraph. "What I might not have realized at the time, after watching the Season 5 premiere “Legacy” which airs on October 5, is that those feelings and responses from the audience might have been intentional." I'm sure there are some verbs missing in there.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, looptab said:

Yeah, I think that's what he means. But it is  a truly awfully written paragraph. "What I might not have realized at the time, after watching the Season 5 premiere “Legacy” which airs on October 5, is that those feelings and responses from the audience might have been intentional." I'm sure there are some verbs missing in there.

He probably put all of his energy/words into formulating the shipping paragraph. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

He probably put all of his energy/words into formulating the shipping paragraph. 

Or in figuring out what Laurel's last words really mean.

[Midnight Lullaby]

19 minutes ago, kismet said:

I don't trust Tiffany Vogt. I don't think she has the skills/abilities to properly watch, analyze & write about TV shows for a mass audience or legitimate site. I know every reviewer has a bias, but hers blinds her to doing her job at even a basic level.

I have no idea either what that 1st paragraph in the GATV review was supposed to mean. It was more convoluted than usual.

Why don't you trust her? I remember her saying the morning after scene of episode 3x20 was great but at the end I guess it was a matter of personal taste..also she dismissed the wedding train theory but it's not her fault if that theory was completely wrong. Did she do anything else?

Her tweet says we won't get Oliver's reaction to the boyfriend but she imagines he will be green = jealous about it..it doesn't seem a weird idea to me..of course they could make Oliver not care but that would be weird to me.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[kismet]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Why don't you trust her? I remember her saying the morning after scene of episode 3x20 was great but at the end I guess it was a matter of personal taste..also she dismissed the wedding train theory but it's not her fault if that theory was completely wrong. Did she do anything else?

Her tweet says we won't get Oliver's reaction to the boyfriend but she imagines he will be green = jealous about it..it doesn't seem a weird idea to me..of course they could make Oliver not care but that would be weird to me.

Its from an experience I had with her on another show. She tends to write from her own personal thoughts & feelings as opposed to what is actually happening in the episodes. So everything she reports is colored by her personal feelings. It's not factual reporting. I guess I take her information with a massive grain of salt.

I have found the majority of posters here are far more perceptive & intelligent in their analysis of the shows & spoilers than anything she ever writes. I wish they would send some of us the spoiler disks instead.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Oh okay. Thank you @kismet . I was trying to remember if she did something messy related to Arrow and couldn't.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Why don't you trust her? I remember her saying the morning after scene of episode 3x20 was great but at the end I guess it was a matter of personal taste..also she dismissed the wedding train theory but it's not her fault if that theory was completely wrong. Did she do anything else?

Also the fact that there was no morning after scene in 320. So she lied or embellished, depending on how you view it. 

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Also the fact that there was no morning after scene in 320. So she lied or embellished, depending on how you view it. 

I don't think she was lying or embellishing - I think she probably legit considered the "so that happened..." scene to be a "morning after." 

Edited September 28, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I don't think she was lying or embellishing - I think she probably legit considered the "so that happened..." scene to be a "morning after." 

Yeah, probably. But because of her I was actually expecting them to go to sleep and wake up together. But she drugged him instead. So romantic! LMAO.

So I've learned to take whatever Tiffany says with a pinch of salt tbh.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Yeah, probably. But because of her I was actually expecting them to go to sleep and wake up together. But she drugged him instead. So romantic! LMAO.

To be fair, it was cute before she drugged him, haha. 

[kismet]

I don't think she was lying or embellishing. I just think she is not that good at what she does. So her interpretation of events is like asking people to report on what they saw or heard while wearing a blindfold in a dark room with noise cancelling ear muffs on. She gets an invite to the room, but I don't think he opinion is worth much.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

To be fair, it was cute before she drugged him, haha. 

True. It really was. Then it all went wrong. Haha.

[dtissagirl]

I thought it was cute WHILE she drugged him too. And then HE thought it was cute that she drugged him. Awww.

[bijoux]

It was cute before drugging and awesome during the drugging. Seriously, I burst out laughing.

[Velocity23]

Dont you just love the fragile masculinity.

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I thought it was cute WHILE she drugged him too. And then HE thought it was cute that she drugged him. Awww.

Ultimate OTP status

[RussianRoulette]

9 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I thought it was cute WHILE she drugged him too. And then HE thought it was cute that she drugged him. Awww.

Ain't epic love grand? 

[Guest]

Haha, I guess I'll be the only one who hated the drugging. Maybe hate is a strong word. It doesn't bother me now but at the time I really didn't like it even though I understood why she did it. But I liked the scene afterwards of them trying to escape and Diggle running around with Oliver over his shoulder and Felicity whacking people over the head with things. She has a bit of a pattern there, doesn't she? LOL.

[NumberCruncher]

Still don't care about what Craig has to say.  It's been long established that he's a bit of a jerk and gets offended at the least bit of criticism.  In my mind, when you're a critic, you have to be willing to take criticism since you're getting paid to give it. *shrugs*  The thing I find amusing is that he's assuming that if someone enjoys shipping then they can't possibly enjoy the season premiere since they are clearly unable to appreciate other aspects as well.  I really don't mind that the season premiere is short on relationship talk and more focused on badass Oliver.  Shipping is not why I started watching the show to begin with.  I've always wanted a good balance between fights, drama, and romance, not S4-type melodrama.  My concern with the upcoming season is the loss of focus on the core characters in order to showcase the shiny new toys whom I really have little interest in.  The producers better make me care about them without beating me over the head with their massive screen time.  I do think that The CW is doing a disservice in pushing the newbies so hard.  When you have a loyal audience you need to play to what they love.  I do hope that Stephen is right in saying the promos don't really reflect the reality re: new characters.