Spoiler Discussion Thread

[calliope1975]

I'm still mad no one acknowledged in show that Felicity was supporting Oliver and Team Arrow, and his boneheaded decisions affected Felicity monetarily as well as emotionally. 

[dtissagirl]

6 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm still mad no one acknowledged in show that Felicity was supporting Oliver and Team Arrow, and his boneheaded decisions affected Felicity monetarily as well as emotionally. 

I like to imagine Felicity's financial adviser/accountant right after the breakup. This woman who never ever bought the fibs Felicity gave her to justify the expenses for the Arrow bunker. Then looking at the money Felicity put in the lease of the offices for Oliver's campaign, then bankrolling the actual campaign, then the expenses of the wedding WHILE also dealing with gigantic hospital expenses... and then the woman calling Felicity and saying "girl, I'm so glad you're out."

[apinknightmare]

45 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

his boneheaded decisions affected Felicity monetarily as well as emotionally. 

Can you elaborate on this? It seems like you're talking about this season, and I can't recall a situation where Oliver made a stupid decision that would've hit her in the pocketbook. I mean...maybe tossing cash at his mayoral campaign when he dropped out because of William, but he ended up being mayor anyway, so that's a wash. 

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

This is the part where your very well reasoned response doesn't make sense to me.  Felicity's actions show that she hasn't given up on Oliver, so why would she date someone else?

She admitted to Oliver in the casino that she was too harsh when she broke it off with him (I think he has been trying to show her he's changed).  And then she told him that "no way" was he going to lose her as a partner in the lair.  Neither of those sound like she's given up on Oliver.

I think Felicity is self-aware enough to know that she hasn't given up on Oliver (I wouldn't say that if it were Oliver though) so to not only start dating but to have actually acquired a new relationship just doesn't compute for me. The only way I can understand it is if the episode is Flashpoint affected and Felicity was never with Oliver in that timeline.

Felicity is delicately balancing her life right now.  She never wanted to walk away from any part of her relationship with Oliver but feels that what happened proved she couldn't trust him to treat her like a full romantic partner.  And it broke her heart.  And shattered her faith.  And made hope too painful to even consider.

And yet immediately after walking away from him, she tried to hold onto part of their relationship, the part that had always been there with her believing in and supporting him as a partner in their mission, but she soon realized that she couldn't even have that.  It was too hard.

Things changed enough so that she could find a way to have him back in her life as a partner like before, but I think where she is self aware is of how easy it would be to fall back into their old patterns that would make her desperately want their romantic relationship back again.  But that is the one part of their relationship that I think we have been shown she HAS given up on.  Mostly out of self defense.  His actions forced her to make a clean break. 

She is not hurting as acutely so she is able to see that she was too harsh before in what she said and is now willing to believe that he can change as a person, but it's too big of an emotional risk to pin her hopes on him changing enough.  That kind of trust in him is gone.  And I really think we saw that she wishes it wasn't.  She loves him and she flat out told him she didn't want to lose him but as she said, she was already gone.  The damage was already done.   

Right now she has at least parts of what she needs from Oliver, but putting her life on hold in the hopes that he will get his act together and they then could resume their happy life requires exactly the kind of faith that Oliver shattered.  How can she risk what she's salvaged of their relationship?  What she needs to be happy is having Oliver in her life and right now all she knows is that Oliver couldn't be the man she needed him to be romantically and wishing for something that she doesn't have would only put what she had left at risk.   

That's where I think the boyfriend comes in.  It keeps their relationship (Felicity and Oliver's relationship) in check.  At a safe distance.  Felicity is very strong but it's a double edged sword.  I think we've seen at times her so intent on doing what she thinks she should want that she's pushed herself to go down paths she doesn't really want. Logic over heart. 

Felicity hasn't given up on Oliver the person and the hero and the friend or work partner but she HAS IMO given up hope that she can have that happily ever after with him.  I don't know what it will take for that to change. 

[calliope1975]

38 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Can you elaborate on this? It seems like you're talking about this season, and I can't recall a situation where Oliver made a stupid decision that would've hit her in the pocketbook. I mean...maybe tossing cash at his mayoral campaign when he dropped out because of William, but he ended up being mayor anyway, so that's a wash. 

I should have said "would have." Well, maybe I don't mean would have. I mean more philosophically, that the man she was supposed to marry and was financially supporting, in both his personal and vigilante life, was lying to her about something so huge. If he had decided to keep Spawn in his life, or if BM had come to him for money, conceivably, that money would have come from Felicity. If they had married, presumably her money would become his and any financial responsibilities he would have would become hers. Does this make sense? Of course, that's assuming TPTB would have written anything like this realistically, which we all know they wouldn't. That's why it's more of a philosophical issue than a real one. You're right that there was nothing in show that showed she was losing money on the lie - though I suspect those visits to Central City cost something. 

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Does this make sense? 

Yes! I was just confused by your phrasing, because I thought you were referring to something that had already happened. 

It's tricky, because all those things could've happened, and are valid points for someone in Felicity's position to be concerned about. But I do think with the way things unfolded that it would've taken a level of sensitivity and subtlety that the writers don't have, and time that the show won't spend on personal moments. I mean, can you imagine the absolute RIOT if Felicity had dared mention financial concerns when Oliver had just sent his son away for good? I don't even want to think about it. 

It's something that maybe she could bring up now, considering some time has passed. But it would have to be delicately handled to not make her look selfish and materialistic, and I don't think the writers are capable of doing that, so personally I'd rather it just not be brought up. 

[statsgirl]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

That's where I think the boyfriend comes in.  It keeps their relationship (Felicity and Oliver's relationship) in check.  At a safe distance.  Felicity is very strong but it's a double edged sword.  I think we've seen at times her so intent on doing what she thinks she should want that she's pushed herself to go down paths she doesn't really want. Logic over heart. 

Felicity hasn't given up on Oliver the person and the hero and the friend or work partner but she HAS IMO given up hope that she can have that happily ever after with him.  I don't know what it will take for that to change. 

 

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Her letting a boyfriend into her life solves a few problems for Felicity.  For one, it gives her that buffer between her and Oliver while allowing her to still be completely invested in saving the city.  She's with him so like last time when she was with Ray, she can let some of her guard around Oliver down. 

Allowing a boyfriend into her life and specifically a clueless one also gives her an outlet to live in the moment with someone that doesn't know anything about her troubles and guilt.

If I'm understanding correctly, Felicity still has feelings for Oliver but doesn't think that he can be the romantic partner she wants, so she finds someone else and builds a relationship with him not because she loves him (she loves Oliver) but to keep Oliver at bay.  That doesn't  sound like a nice person because she's essentially using this other guy to keep Oliver at a distance so she doesn't jump the guy she really wants. Unlike with Ray, when she thought that she couldn't have Oliver at all, she's using this new boyfriend to keep herself from wishing and hoping for Oliver rather than being honest in her relationship with him.

10 hours ago, way2interested said:

I'm just curious with how you think that he's been trying to show he that he's changed (not being snarky, I just want to compare povs). I can kind of see it in 416 when he's apologizing and swearing that he'll never lie to her and in 419 when he and Felicity are talking about their grief, but I haven't really seen anything overt that shows Oliver is trying to show that he changed. In 420 he didn't even share with Felicity any of his fears about learning magic until after she confronted him about it, and any other little moment (like in 419 or 423) just seems more reactionary to what just happened to them rather than Oliver actively tying to show that he has changed. I just think that that will be part of the overall s5 relationship to show how closer they become.

I think when he staged the wedding and said his real vows, he was trying to show her that he regretted what he had done and he would change. It was too much, too soon for her but I do think he was trying at that point. After she gave him back the ring and told him to keep it for good this time, I think he gave up.  IIRC, he was surprised that she was going to go with him to the mage Constantine had set him up with.  In fact, part of the problem is that since the fake wedding and double break-up, Felicity has been giving him mixed messages, such as "not a chance" that she wasn't going to keep working on Team Arrow with him even though everyone else had left.

9 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

 But this stupid ass show doesn't let Felicity have conversations about her feelings, nor spends any time with any other character speaking to Felicity about what happened, or making any kind of statement that they're in Felicity's corner during the garbage fire baby mama drama. The narrative takes one single beat to explain it away by that throwaway line from Donna saying Felicity's a pistacchio, but it is also making it clear that the writers will not prioritize Felicity's POV *because they don't want to*. They could if they did.

To be kind to the writing, what they had Oliver do was so incredibly stupid that they have to keep showing his POV.  If they ever showed Felicity's, Oliver would never recover from the Baby Mama Debacle.  Even now he may not.

[dtissagirl]

I disagree. I think Oliver has already more than recovered, and that won't even have to rehash any of it is S5 unless they want to. From the writers room pov, he doesn't need any kind of redemption tour. They've already done it -- he lost the spawn and he lost Felicity as a consequence of his fuckup, BUT he lost the election only to recover it at the last minute. They gave him a textuai recover as the final beat of the season.

[Guest]

Oh yeah, Oliver definitely recovered from the baby mama crap, given how Felicity is the demon woman who shouldn't get a say in his kid's life, or even be told of said kid's existence because they were never married and how dare she overreact like that?! LOL. They made sure the audience was at least sympathetic to Oliver's problem because they had basically every character tell him he did the right thing while Felicity was the lone voice who disagreed. Man, they really crapped all over her there. 

[looptab]

13 hours ago, way2interested said:

The argument in 501 I feel like I'm actually going to be fine with.

Oh, I have no problem with them arguing, it's just that the qualifier "as equals" worries me because often when they put their efforts towards something, it comes off in a very different way. So, the fact that they needed to specify that they are equals - when IMO they've always been -  makes me wary :)

[emarasmoak]

I am reading your very detailed and well-thought comments on Felicity's feelings and her POV and I just wish that you were in the writers' room, as I dread that no one there is going to give her a fair chance to not look like a shallow woman who just got a new boyfriend after dumping the nice hero who lost his son. And the writers and producers are probably convinced that this new season will be great because our hero is going to be "mean" and he will have new masked worshippers. I just think that TPTB are so busy trying to get more comic-dudebros loving the show that they will fail Felicity. Again. I hate this boyfriend storyline. I just hope that it is Barry because of Flashpoint. (I thought that this was "Felicity and Friends" but no... they are clearly not pandering to me)

I have also recently start thinking that Lance (Quentin) is going to die soon. They have a younger cute policeman that can connect the team to the police force, he will have no connection with the female lead if he has indeed broken up with Donna, and also could give Oliver another moment of losing a father figure that would be dramatic and "organic". Also he is one of the few older cast members and this is CW. And also because PB was clearly unhappy in the SDCC. I would like this not to happen as I very much like PB but... Does anyone think that this will happen?

Edited August 16, 2016 by emarasmoak

[BkWurm1]

Quote

If I'm understanding correctly, Felicity still has feelings for Oliver but doesn't think that he can be the romantic partner she wants, so she finds someone else and builds a relationship with him not because she loves him (she loves Oliver) but to keep Oliver at bay.  That doesn't  sound like a nice person because she's essentially using this other guy to keep Oliver at a distance so she doesn't jump the guy she really wants. Unlike with Ray, when she thought that she couldn't have Oliver at all, she's using this new boyfriend to keep herself from wishing and hoping for Oliver rather than being honest in her relationship with him.

I don't think its anywhere near as calculated as that and I actually think it's the same situation as it was with Ray.  She loved Oliver then as well even when she tried to see if she could build something with Ray.  

Yes, Oliver was the one that had their relationship off the table that time, but if she thinks she can't trust Oliver not to behave again in the same unacceptable manner, the relationship is still off the table even if she's the one that has drawn the lines in the sand. She has been honest with Oliver.  She thinks they can't be together like that.  Oliver says he won't do it again but words aren't enough.  You have to trust the one you love won't hurt you like that and while Oliver regrets his actions, has he really done anything to regain that particular kind of trust he shattered? 

Oliver not being the romantic partner that she NEEDS relegates their relationship right now to a romantic impossibility in my opinion, in her opinion (how's that for a brain twister, lol)  She could technically be with Oliver, but only in a manner that she believes would inevitably lead right back to heartbreak and that would be self destructive behavior.  

I also don't think she coldly set out to date someone to be that barrier, but she probably pushed herself to be open to a new relationship when the possibility came alone in the hopes that she could move on, just like she tried with Ray.   

I don't think Felicity expects to ever stop loving Oliver so waiting until she is no longer in love with him to explore other relationships probably isn't realistic (even if it's a lot healthier - but Felicity is traumatized and NOT in a perfectly healthy place IMO) So because she can't be with Oliver, striking up something undemanding with a nice guy that could maybe in her opinion be a possibility down the road isn't the strangest idea.   There's no reason to believe she's made promises to the guy or has been misleading him about the level of her feelings.  

With Ray she was enjoying spending time with him and she cared for him but when he got in too deep and admitted he was in love with her she was forced to face that her feelings couldn't ever match his, that's when their relationship IMO became a farce.  At that point Ray was kind of getting the short end of the stick but so far I haven't heard that the boyfriend is that serious. 

Quote

I have also recently start thinking that Lance (Quentin) is going to die soon. They have a younger cute policeman that can connect the team to the police force, he will have no connection with the female lead if he has indeed broken up with Donna, and also could give Oliver another moment of losing a father figure that would be dramatic and "organic". Also he is one of the few older cast members and this is CW. And also because PB was clearly unhappy in the SDCC. I would like this not to happen as I very much like PB but... Does anyone think that this will happen?

The thought has crossed my mind since I saw his interviews at ComiCon.  I really hope it's not going to happen but right now he has no connection to any of the current cast or storylines at all as far as I can tell.  Worries me.  A lot.     

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Question: Safe to say we’ll see Colton Haynes’ Roy back on Arrow this season? —Jen
Ausiello: It’s actually not safe to say. Mericle tells us that Haynes — who’s currently shooting an arc on Fox’s Scream Queens — is not currently set to return. The key word there being currently. “We would have Roy back in a heartbeat,” she says. “If the right circumstances come up and the right storyline presents itself, absolutely.”

Translation:  We have no current plans to bring him back, but never say never. 

[Morrigan2575]

Didn't CH say on April/May he would be back for several episodes this season? I wonder if something changed? 

[apinknightmare]

From the IGN article I posted in Spoilers Only:

Quote

"There's a very Olicity-heavy scene in [episode] 5. They're adults. At the same time, it feels a little like Season 1," Guggenheim said. "I honestly don't know how many shows have done this where you've gotten two characters engage, broke them up, but still kept them together on the show as partners."

Not sure that's something to brag about, dude. Especially when the conversation about the conclusion of the relationship happens offscreen, lmao. 

Edited August 16, 2016 by apinknightmare

[way2interested]

If anything, that conversation really should have happened in 423, but not having it on screen and having no reference to it so the audience doesn't know where they stand until a supposedly centric episode is cool too.

Other than that, idk I kind of liked the article. There seems to be potential in where they're going.

Edited August 16, 2016 by way2interested

[Belinea]

12 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Not sure that's something to brag about, dude. Especially when the conversation about the conclusion of the relationship happens offscreen

I feel as though they never understand the issue people have with 'only tell-no show'. So are we supposed to understand that they had this conversation based on the fact that she moved on? I also don't like how they described that they are so happy they just made them S1 partners again. I just don't see why they'd want them to be back to square one. I still don't think they'll drop the relationship altogether but I feel as though they won't try to go there for a very long time. I also feel like 5x05 will be Oliver going back to dating himself, trying to change and leaving the past in the past, the way she supposedly has already done.

I am really don't see yet what is going to be exciting about S5... I am waiting and waiting and every time some new info drops, I am getting even more annoyed. Russia isn't enough to make up for that. And if I am completely honest, I don't really care for the crossover. S3/S1 was nice. But after S4/S2, I've had enough. 

[apinknightmare]

Really not sure what 5x05 could even be about. If they had this end of relationship convo over the summer, and the general understanding is that they were moving on and Felicity did, I guess maybe like everything in Oliver's life, he needs to be told more than once to move on? 

[Belinea]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I guess maybe like everything in Oliver's life, he needs to be told more than once to move on? 

Maybe he will go on a date with the reporter but I have yet to understand what people should then get from this big episode/scene? Is Taylor Swifts "We are never getting back together" going to be played in the background for good measure? So that everyone and their mom will get that they are moving on?

If it were a positive episode (which I am more doubtful than ever that it will be) you'd see that there still is something there but I don't know if that is what the producers want this story to be.

[Velocity23]

Um that makes no sense at all. Its obvious the bf thing is minimal going into the season. They not even going to show the important talk of their most popular ship. But they are gonna showcase the relationship of Felicity with random dude, who wasnt even announced?

Episode 5 to me sounds like a good time to turn things around for  Felicity/Oliver honestly. Its sweeps month and they not gonna rehash the situation or things said in season premiere. And i am not saying that the reunion happens then, but first steps will be taken in that direction.

[Morrigan2575]

35 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I kind of liked the article. There seems to be potential in where they're going.

My only complaint is that (as someone who is more of a Felicity Fan than an Olicity fan) I wish they talked about stuff Felicity will go through, not just Olicity.  Talk about Havenrock, Talk about the Chip or PT or something she has.

That's not to say i don't think she has anything, they usually put her stuff in the Back Half of the season but, I'd like to see her have something professional.

[Velocity23]

Quote

My only complaint is that (as someone who is more of a Felicity Fan than an Olicity fan) I wish they talked about stuff Felicity will go through, not just Olicity.  Talk about Havenrock, Talk about the Chip or PT or something she has.

That's not to say i don't think she has anything, they usually put her stuff in the Back Half of the season but, I'd like to see her have something professional.

She is gonna help Curtis ...

[Guest]

Felicity might as well just be a prop. OH WAIT she already is.

And O/F not having a conversation on screen about their relationship just because we're to assume they had it off screen in those 5 missing months is crap. 

[Chaser]

I don't know if I feel its more likely to be a positive or negative episode, but I do find it weird they would be pimping a negative Olicity episode so early. Esp given the status of their relationship, what's the point of talking up an episode that doesn't change anything for them?

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

My only complaint is that (as someone who is more of a Felicity Fan than an Olicity fan) I wish they talked about stuff Felicity will go through, not just Olicity.  Talk about Havenrock, Talk about the Chip or PT or something she has.

That's not to say i don't think she has anything, they usually put her stuff in the Back Half of the season but, I'd like to see her have something professional.

As a huge Olicity fan, but I would have loved her section to be about her.

[Guest]

Why would 505 be a positive Olicity episode though? Yes, it's sweeps which is why they're even having a big Olicity moment but five episodes into the season is way too early for anything good to happen.

I still don't get it. How can O/F be ambiguous if a) they've already had the mature conversation about their relationship and b) Felicity has a new boyfriend. It doesn't get any clearer than that. I'm so confused about the whole thing and less and less interested in even watching it. 

Not to mention that Felicity deserves better than this crap. I was fine with O/F not being together if Felicity was given a proper arc that actually followed through for a change but it sounds like even that's wishful thinking. 

[Velocity23]

Quote

Why would 505 be a positive Olicity episode though? Yes, it's sweeps which is why they're even having a big Olicity moment but five episodes into the season is way too early for anything good to happen.

Not saying a full on reunion, but if they already "moved" on, there isnt a way for their situation to get worse. So i am saying little steps in that episode. Also putting a positive Olicity episode at the begining of sweeps is not a bad thing. I would be more worried if its the episode in the last week of sweeps. They usually put those unexpected cliffies there. 

[Guest]

Just now, Velocity23 said:

Not saying a full on reunion, but if they already "moved" on, there isnt a way for their situation to get worse. So i am saying little steps in that episode. Also putting a positive Olicity episode at the begining of sweeps is not a bad thing. I would be more worried if its the episode in the last week of sweeps. They usually put those unexpected cliffies there. 

I don't know about that. If Oliver is still hanging on and hoping things could go back to the way they were, maybe Felicity tells him outright to move on for good. IDK about you but Felicity telling him she doesn't love him anymore could make their situation worse, IMO. I'm not saying that will happen because even the idea of it sounds crazy and as far as we know Oliver still has her heart (at least according to EBR at the start of filming) but I would put nothing past these writers. Saying it's a big O/F episode to draw in some people and then punching us all in the face is totally something they would do. I'm just saying, be prepared. LOL.

[Velocity23]

And i am just saying that i dont expect the reunion to take place during May sweeps, but either during November or February sweeps. So for them to start taking steps in episode 5 wouldnt be surprising for me.

[dtissagirl]

9 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I still don't get it. How can O/F be ambiguous if a) they've already had the mature conversation about their relationship and b) Felicity has a new boyfriend. It doesn't get any clearer than that. I'm so confused about the whole thing and less and less interested in even watching it.

The "ambiguous" thing has been bugging me as well, so I went back to the interview with Wendy, and I think I just realized she said one thing, the journo mucked it up  --
http://fangirlish.com/arrow-sdcc-2016-interview-executive-producer-wendy-mericle/

Quote

 

While Mericle did say that they’d begin season five in an ambiguous place, the first five episodes of this season will provide some clarity.

“We’ve left them in a very ambiguous place at the end of season four, and I think we’ll get some clarity in the first five episodes, particularly in episode five of season five,” Mericle said. “But really by the same token why the relationship happened is because we were writing to those characters and writing to Stephen [Amell] and Emily [Bett Rickards], and we’re going to do the same thing in season five. We’re going to let the characters tell us where they want to go, and we’ll see where we end up.”

 

So. Wendy did NOT say they'll begin the season in an ambiguous place, that came from the journo. Actually, Wendy said the opposite of that. They were left in an ambiguous place in the last scene of S4, but that is cleared in the first five episodes.

[statsgirl]

I think February sweeps.  May sweeps is too late for it to be a real part of the season.

505 has to be at least in a positive direction for Olicity because it's something the fans enjoy and want.  Why would they bring in a bunch of new characters the audience doesn't give two cents about and then kill Olicity?  Did they learn nothing from Raylicity?  End Olicity for good and they've lost a ton of their audience and even more of their free social media publicity.

40 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

And O/F not having a conversation on screen about their relationship just because we're to assume they had it off screen in those 5 missing months is crap. 

It's because Guggie can't write that conversation and so he's sweeping it under the rug by saying that they had it five months ago.

16 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Oh yeah, Oliver definitely recovered from the baby mama crap, given how Felicity is the demon woman who shouldn't get a say in his kid's life, or even be told of said kid's existence because they were never married and how dare she overreact like that?! LOL. They made sure the audience was at least sympathetic to Oliver's problem because they had basically every character tell him he did the right thing while Felicity was the lone voice who disagreed. Man, they really crapped all over her there. 

That was the point that I was trying to make. They had the audience sympathetic to Oliver by repeatedly having him state his position and characters like Thea and Mari saying he did the right thing because if they had had just one conversation of Felicity telling Lyla how she feels and being supported by her,  Guggie would never have been able to sell Oliver having done the right thing and being rewarded by becoming the mayor.

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver not being the romantic partner that she NEEDS relegates their relationship right now to a romantic impossibility in my opinion, in her opinion (how's that for a brain twister, lol)  She could technically be with Oliver, but only in a manner that she believes would inevitably lead right back to heartbreak and that would be self destructive behavior.  

I also don't think she coldly set out to date someone to be that barrier, but she probably pushed herself to be open to a new relationship when the possibility came alone in the hopes that she could move on, just like she tried with Ray.  

But even with Ray, she tried and failed, and that was before she knew what it was like to be in a relationship with Oliver.

I come from the generation of "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" (thank you, Gloria Steinham).  We know that Felicity has been loved by Oliver, unlike when she was with Ray when she thought it was unthinkable for her to be with Oliver, and we know Felicity still loves him because she believes in him as a vigilante and sticks by him.  You don't do that if you're disillusioned by someone.

Maybe she still thinks that Oliver is a romantic impossibility even though she admitted she was too harsh with him and she's still hanging around him 18/7.  I can see her trying to date other people but it failing because she still has such strong feelings for Oliver.  But Felicity isn't the kind of woman who needs a man or else she doesn't feel validated.  Between her feelings for Oliver, her guilt over Havenrock and he strong sense of self, I can't see her being in a relationship with another man.

Unless they completely ruin her character, which I'm not ruling out.

Edited August 16, 2016 by statsgirl

[Morrigan2575]

I've been saying S5 is the opposite of the other season. Temp relationship early on, Olicity reunion between 513-515. My money has been on February Sweeps since S4 ended and I've seen nothing to contradict it. In fact they've confurmed at least one temp relationship in 501.

[statsgirl]

Temp relationships are such a waste of my time.  Remember Dr. Motorcycle Boy on Castle?  A temp relationship Beckett got into only because Castle was in a temp relationship with his ex-wife.  Beckett would have been a much stronger a character if she didn't feel the need to get into a relationship just because the guy she was hung up on was in one of his own.

[Belinea]

34 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

IDK about you but Felicity telling him she doesn't love him anymore could make their situation worse, IMO.

That would be something they'd write and also they'd hype an episode and then not give you anything positive. I assume the first 5 episodes we get where they are after the summer and in episode 5 something about their current status quo has to change. Push comes to shove and there will be a movement in one way or the other.

So either they will decide that they both are over it and do move on or there will be something that they can't quit. But then again this info comes from the people that came up with BMD and tried to sell it positively. 

Didn't the blog poster that met MG say that she feels he understands where they will take them and she felt good after talking to him? Because after all these very 'exciting' spoilers, I feel less than convinced. I almost feel like I felt after the big meltdown after Alias S2  and you just knew that only things you wouldn't appreciate were to come. Never made the story more compelling for me, just took something away from me, I guess.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Belinea

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Belinea said:

That would be something they'd write and also they'd hype an episode and then not give you anything positive. I assume the first 5 episodes we get where they are after the summer and in episode 5 something about their current status quo has to change. Push comes to shove and there will be a movement in one way or the other.

So either they will decide that they both are over it and do move on or there will be something that they can't quit. But then again this info comes from the people that came up with BMD and tried to sell it positively. 

Didn't the blog poster that met MG say that she feels he understands where they will take them and she felt good after talking to him? Because after all these very 'exciting' spoilers, I feel less than convinced. I almost feel liken I felt after the big meltdown after Alias S2 and you just knew that only thing you wouldn't appreciate were to come. Never made the story more compelling for me, just took something away from me, I guess.

I just want to reiterate that I really don't think Felicity will say anything like that. I may not see 505 as being positive for many reasons but I don't see them ending O/F so blatantly like that, especially when it is essentially already over (in the sense that O/F are not together, not that I think they're over for good or anything). That was purely an example on my part. 

Also, personally speaking, I wouldn't trust that blog poster. She worships the ground MG walks on and thinks he can do no wrong even though there's plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise. I guess it's what works for you tbh. If some take comfort in her interpretations (and that's all that was), then that's cool. But I don't.

[Belinea]

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I guess it's what works for you tbh. If some take comfort in her interpretations (and that's all that was), then that's cool. But I don't.

I didn't either because frankly I don't think he even knows where all of this will go... They will focus on building the crossover and after that they have time to take their own storyline apart. 

And I got what you were saying, I was just saying that they love to write stuff that makes people wonder why they are still watching. BMD, Oliver being on Malcolm's side, 'I don't want to be a woman you love', Ray's entire existence in most episodes of S3, LL and her final words (that nobody needs to hear to be honest.) I already know that them putting her on a pedestal will make me rage...

[calliope1975]

If I continue to lower my expectations, I'll be flat on the ground. 

[apinknightmare]

Not that I believe the ep will be positive by any stretch, but I'm not sure what the point of ending it again/any negativity will be. This article pretty much confirms that they're going to pretend like O&F were never engaged, never almost got married - I wouldn't be surprised if the writers wrote them like they never happened at all. I will never rule out the writers being hacky and stupid, but what would be the point of either one of them addressing their previous relationship when I'm pretty sure they're going to be acting like it never existed in the first place, haha. 

Edited August 16, 2016 by apinknightmare

[thegirlsleuth]

The stupid storytelling inherent in Oliver and Felicity having the conversation over the summer is an appropriate end to the baby mama garbage fire. It was an irredeemable story line from start to finish.  Oliver and Felicity's fight in 4.08 was contrived, and Oliver's motivations for lying made no sense. Once the writers realized that the audience was seeing through the weak "reasons" they had for Oliver lying they did everything they could to make sure that he wasn't viewed as too much of a bad guy, from glossing over the fact that he was leaving his paralyzed girlfriend at home to visit the boy to having every other character validate his actions both before and after Felicity found out.  I even think they switched the focus from "Felicity was mad that Oliver lied" to "Felicity was mad that Oliver cut her out of the decision" because you could argue that he might be in the right.  They took what could have been an interesting storyline about fatherhood--and conflict could have arisen out of Felicity's history with her father and Oliver's decision--and turned it into Oliver lies again.  And I don't think that it is organic that they would settle this over the summer.  Organic would have been having a conversation on screen in the back half of season four--maybe when they thought the world was ending?--even if they didn't get back together.  At the least, I really hope they explicitly state a conversation took place over the summer, because the audience can't assume.  I remember being shocked that Laurel didn't know that they'd thrown Thea in the Lazarus Pit--you'd think Thea would have mentioned it when they lived together--but if the conversation doesn't happen on screen, you can never be sure.

I have seen people suggest that things went downhill when Kreisberg left.  I don't think that he is a storytelling genius, but he does seem to understand real human emotion.

[statsgirl]

I trust Wendy Mericle more than I trust Andrew Kreisburg. The storytelling for female characters on The Flash is non-existent.

[thegirlsleuth]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I trust Wendy Mericle more than I trust Andrew Kreisburg. The storytelling for female characters on The Flash is non-existent.

That is very true, but I feel like Kreisberg can put an character and story arc together and I'm not seeing that on Arrow--Marc Guggenheim doesn't understand long form storytelling, and any good Wendy could do is squashed. Arrow develops their female characters up until the point where they have them act completely out of character.  And while the women on the Flash are consistently underdeveloped, at least they have consistent characterization, which I appreciate is the most backhanded of backhand compliments.

[Velocity23]

Quote

I have seen people suggest that things went downhill when Kreisberg left.  I don't think that he is a storytelling genius, but he does seem to understand real human emotion.

Yes that 1x17 episode of the Flash made it very clear, when he reverted Felicity to s1 Felicity.

[Sunshine]

7 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I trust Wendy Mericle more than I trust Andrew Kreisburg. The storytelling for female characters on The Flash is non-existent.

It sounds like it's headed that way for the 2 females on Arrow in S5.  Felicity as quirky cheerleader in the lair.  Thea as support in mayor's office.  They both sound ripe for DID roles too.  I guess Diggle is B story. Hey Quentin, lets revert you to S1 struggles again.

Other than Quentin working in the mayor's office that IGN article really had no new information in it.  It just reiterates that Arrow is time travelling back to S1 and regressing characters too.  I hated the way Flash wrote Felicity in 1x17.  I don't think I have ever experienced 2nd hand embarrassment before but I certainly did with Felicity and Ray.  So is she going to be behaving that way with Oliver or the new boyfriend?!  I loved S1 Felicity but she's come so far.   I hate that they are going to write her that way again if jbuffyangel is correct.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

If I continue to lower my expectations, I'll be flat on the ground. 

Here, have a shovel and we can go even lower.

[way2interested]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

But even with Ray, she tried and failed, and that was before she knew what it was like to be in a relationship with Oliver.

I come from the generation of "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" (thank you, Gloria Steinham).  We know that Felicity has been loved by Oliver, unlike when she was with Ray when she thought it was unthinkable for her to be with Oliver, and we know Felicity still loves him because she believes in him as a vigilante and sticks by him.  You don't do that if you're disillusioned by someone.

Maybe she still thinks that Oliver is a romantic impossibility even though she admitted she was too harsh with him and she's still hanging around him 18/7.  I can see her trying to date other people but it failing because she still has such strong feelings for Oliver.  But Felicity isn't the kind of woman who needs a man or else she doesn't feel validated.  Between her feelings for Oliver, her guilt over Havenrock and he strong sense of self, I can't see her being in a relationship with another man.

Unless they completely ruin her character, which I'm not ruling out.

Personally not a fan of Steinham or that quote, so I kind of see it differently. I don't see Felicity as being disillusioned by Oliver but by the idea of being in a romantic relationship with him, two separate things. She didn't admit that breaking up or leaving him was harsh (the relationship part) but that attacking his character and his ability to change (Oliver himself) was harsh and out of character for her, both explicitly because she was going through "the worst moment of her life" and implicitly because she's always been the one to defend Oliver as a person who can change and grow for the better. In the end, she believes that Oliver is still a good person to help save the city with and talk to and a good friend, hence the continuing to hang around with him, but the romantic relationship aspect is over in her eyes. If she did believe that breaking up with him was harsh, then they probably would have gotten back together again seeing as Felicity is it for Oliver (at least at this point, potential endings to 505 and potential romantic subplots with the new reporter notwithstanding).

How I see it, Felicity doesn't need a man to be successful or skilled or validated, but she is a person who has a desire/need to love and be loved by someone special in her life. She thought that she could have it with Ray because he appreciated her at times when Oliver was pushing her away emotionally, but she couldn't reciprocate it because of her feelings for Oliver. Then she finally got that relationship with Oliver, but never fully in the way that she wanted or needed, so that ended. Now that desire is still there but unfilled by anyone so now she's trying to move to someone new who could possibly be that special person. She's compartmentalized her feelings for Oliver into a "never going to happen" box again but this time with knowledge and experience of what being with Oliver feels like and leads to as reference so as to not sidetrack her in her search for someone new. Ultimately, this is her moving on because she knows what she wants/needs, and it's not Oliver or being alone. She does have a strong sense of self, but this is also the same woman who months ago fully intended on marrying, and to a lesser extent having children with, a man that she grew to love. She's independent but she also wants a man who can boost her life, and Oliver hasn't necessarily been determined as the all or nothing person for her in her eyes like Felicity is for Oliver in his eyes.

Like I said before, I feel like ending any temp relationship will be coming from the idea of Felicity choosing to take that risk again with Oliver after he does something that shows that he's changed because she will be able to unlock that box of feelings that she has for Oliver after not being able to fully be with this new person.

That's not to say that I want/wanted her to have a bf. I just think that it could make sense without ruining her character or being out of character. My biggest issue comes from how messy this whole thing is, both potentially on screen and off screen.

[statsgirl]

One of the tenets of AA is to not get into a new relationship in the first year of sobriety.   Between her feelings about what happened at Havenrock (thank goodness they haven't dropped it) and giving up on having a life with Oliver, who literally is the love of her life at this point, girl shouldn't be in any kind of romantic relationship.  Add to that the fact that the three big relationships in her life (Cooper, Ray and Oliver) have been men she trusted but all of them let her down (Cooper in faking his death, Ray in not trusting her either about Oliver or to tell her the suit was working, and Oliver about William).  To be willing to trust someone else at this point and get into a relationship with him argues the kind of neediness we see around Donna in fanfic.  That's not the Felicity who is a role model for young women, and so I really hope this boyfriend is a result of Flashpoint.

2 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

That is very true, but I feel like Kreisberg can put an character and story arc together and I'm not seeing that on Arrow--Marc Guggenheim doesn't understand long form storytelling, and any good Wendy could do is squashed. Arrow develops their female characters up until the point where they have them act completely out of character.  And while the women on the Flash are consistently underdeveloped, at least they have consistent characterization, which I appreciate is the most backhanded of backhand compliments.

It's interesting that the first two seasons, when Guggie and Kreisberg were working together, worked much better than since. Or maybe it's because Berlanti was around more.

Without direction, Guggie is all about plot! plot! plot! and the result was season 3 in which people behaved OOC in order to give us Malcolm and Ra's, neither of whom I wanted. I thought season 4 was better because Wendy Mericle added the character touches that made the story make sense, until Gugglie's plot! took over again (e.g. baby mama drama).  He's the senior EP so while she can do something to smooth out the rough edges, he gets the last word.

I used to think that AK could write character and story but having seen what he's done on The Flash, I think he needs someone around who has the authority to say "Stop that, Andrew. Right now."  I no longer care about Barry because it's always the same tween boy issues and he's utterly ruined Cisco for me because he's such a Mary Sue (it's interesting to compare that clip from 1/04 where Felicity is the smartest to season 2 where Cisco can do everything).  I disagree that the women are consistent except that they are consistent in always propping Barry or they have to leave (e.g. Patty) but that's just my opinion.

Arrow does still have the problem that characters will behave OOC in order to advance whatever plot line Guggie wants (e.g. Diggle wanting to kill someone who can be saved) but overall, I prefer Guggie/Mericle to Kreisberg.

[dtissagirl]

I feel really uncomfortable with pre-judging Felicity without us knowing anything about the boyfriend, or the nature of this relationship. I mean, I have negative interest in seeing Felicity dating anyone, and if this crap lasts longer than a couple of episodes, Arrow and I will most likely go through a nasty breakup, but if Felicity needs to work through her issues by having sex with a new dude, then more power to her.

[statsgirl]

Isn't it the quality of the storytelling we're speculating on rather than pre-judging Felicity herself?  i.e. will they ruin Felicity's strengths again as they did in season 3 by having her apology to Ray when he was the one who broke her trust?

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

I feel really uncomfortable with pre-judging Felicity without us knowing anything about the boyfriend, or the nature of this relationship. I mean, I have negative interest in seeing Felicity dating anyone, and if this crap lasts longer than a couple of episodes, Arrow and I will most likely go through a nasty breakup, but if Felicity needs to work through her issues by having sex with a new dude, then more power to her.

Felicity told her father in 412 that she felt broken, felt like something was wrong with her and felt unloved when he left... Maybe because of Havenrock and Oliver, that's how she feels now and wants to feel being loved again? Who knows... But I definitely don't judge Felicity for wanting to feel that closeness with someone when every other single part of her life is being ripped to shreds. 

[dtissagirl]

34 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Isn't it the quality of the storytelling we're speculating on rather than pre-judging Felicity herself?  i.e. will they ruin Felicity's strengths again as they did in season 3 by having her apology to Ray when he was the one who broke her trust?

You  talked about her being a role model to young women, which imo is pretty much THE WORST way for a writers room to think of a female character, so it feels like the discussion IS about Felicity's character. That if she dates a rando then it's automatic damage to her character.

And at lot of it seems to be about preemptively bracing for nasty folk who hate Felicity who are gonna slutshame her anyway. So spec turns away from looking at spoilers to try and figure out what's coming, and veers into speculation that's all about making sure Felicity is ~protected at all times~ --- which, again, if the writers are thinking about her like that, then we have a MUCH BIGGER problem than whether the boyfriend is longterm or short.

[tangerine95]

I wouldn't have a problem with the boyfriend if it actually was used to explore Felicity's issues, if they turn it into character development for her and all that.But Idk that they would do that and that it would be used as anything other than as stall for olicity and a reason  why they didn't get back together during hiatus.