Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

That's what I thought too, when MG went on and on about how they didn't kill LL for Olicity. I didn't expect a full reunion by the end of the season, but I thought they'd at least imply that they would be working on their relationship over the summer. Give fans something to hang on to over hiatus. 

I think that might be what we're getting anyway? There is a 423 scene that was filmed at the graveyard with O/F (based on those bts pictures) so I think they might get an ambiguous but hopeful ending rather than back together and engaged like nothing happened, which wouldn't really be realistic anyway, despite their break-up being contrived as hell. 

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I think that might be what we're getting anyway? There is a 423 scene that was filmed at the graveyard with O/F (based on those bts pictures) so I think they might get an ambiguous but hopeful ending rather than back together and engaged like nothing happened, which wouldn't really be realistic anyway, despite their break-up being contrived as hell. 

that's the impression i got from DR. not together but in a better place then they are now

[Chaser]

I'm good with the impression DR is giving, but I better get a damn kiss. 

[lemotomato]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I'm good with the impression DR is giving, but I better get a damn kiss. 

I think kissing would be decidedly unambiguous about their couple status, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[Chaser]

Not if its an End of The World Kiss.

Their problem isn't a lack of love so I think they could kiss in a moment and still realize their problems are still their problems.

[lemotomato]

That's true. I'm just in "expect the worst" mode now with DR's comments. He's usually the one that puts a positive spin on things. 

[Genki]

I'd prefer together but separated physically, but I guess moving towards a reconciliation, while frustrating could be OK. I just get bummed that everything gets glossed over so quickly, especially since the show just work better when they are not actively contriving to keep Olicity separated for plot-purposes.

[Chaser]

21 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

That's true. I'm just in "expect the worst" mode now with DR's comments. He's usually the one that puts a positive spin on things. 

Perception I guess. I don't get a negative vibe from what DR is saying. It seems the end of S4 is setting up S5, I imagine Olicity falls in that category too. So hopeful Olicity I'm good with. I know DR said the season won't end happy like S2, but I'm thinking Olicity is going to be a bit like S2. Hearts eyes but a question mark.

They still got time to set up the 100th episode Wedding (it's going to happen).

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

I think that might be what we're getting anyway? There is a 423 scene that was filmed at the graveyard with O/F (based on those bts pictures) so I think they might get an ambiguous but hopeful ending rather than back together and engaged like nothing happened, which wouldn't really be realistic anyway, despite their break-up being contrived as hell. 

I guess I don't like the "ambiguous" part. I want to think they'll try dating again (even though we'll miss seeing it, *again*). Something as simple as her asking him out to dinner. I just can't picture them going back to just being friends. 

I'm seriously disappointed that the show is going to drag out the breakup that only happened because of an OOC lie, and ignore all the relationship building conversations in 402, 406, 409, 410, and 411. Like, what was the point of all that, then?

Edited May 14, 2016 by lemotomato

[ComicFan777]

Since we haven't seen Felicity and Oliver work out their issues with each other and Felicity hasn't seen Oliver has changed (proof by action not just words), I can see them not getting back together yet.  They might be a little flirty, skirting on the edge of being friends or more (similar to what we saw in 4.20) because they just love each other so much and naturally gravitate towards each other even if things aren't fixed between them.

At the same time, I can also see them having an invisible barrier between them because Felicity would be scared to make that leap to actually be in a relationship with him again because she hasn't seen him prove that what he says is more than just words.  The leap might feel really huge to her because once she makes that step, she's all in just like Oliver - it wouldn't be about testing the waters with them because they are it for each other.

Given that the next couple of episodes basically happen in a day or so after Felicity had to make that extremely hard decision regarding Havenrock and them having to save the world, there's not room to really do their reconciliation justice.  I don't really like the season ending on a dangling maybe, but given everything happening around them - I guess it makes sense. 

Edited May 14, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I guess I don't like the "ambiguous" part. I want to think they'll try dating again (even though we'll miss seeing it, *again*). Something as simple as her asking him out to dinner. I just can't picture them going back to just being friends. 

I'm seriously disappointed that the show is going to drag out the breakup that only happened because of an OOC lie, and ignore all the relationship building conversations in 402, 406, 409, 410, and 411. Like, what was the point of all that, then?

I totally understand where you're coming from. And I do think it's weird to focus on their relationship and then have it end so ambiguously. I see it from like a writing/narrative perspective where it's a bit like lack of payoff in a way. 

That said, I just don't know if there's enough time in the last two episodes to get a resolution that's fitting with why they broke up in the first place. There's just so much going on and with Laurel dying and the fallout from that, I don't think there's been enough time to explore any real change. Once again I think they lost time in filler episodes and dropped the narrative 'ball' so to speak and ended up with rushed plots near the end of the season.

I guess I'm of two minds about it all tbh. Yeah, as a shipper I'd like my ship back together. Who wouldn't? But I can see why leaving it open might be best for now. IDK. I'm seeing so many conflicting interpretations about what's coming out of this con that I'd rather just wait and see.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Guest

[SmallScreenDiva]

Olicity shipper here and I'm totally OK with them not being back together at the end of the season. But if the show is putting them back together, I'd want more screen time for Oliver & Felicity, hashing out their relationship. I want more interaction, more personal ones during these last 2 episodes. However, I'm pretty much resigned to the show rushing this and the ending for Oliver & Felicity, despite being in a good place, to be unsatisfying as it was back in S3.

[ComicFan777]

It's kinda funny thinking about what would dating entail for Oliver and Felicity.  As friends, they basically act married already.  They go on trips together, they see each other everyday, they save each other all the time, when they are broken up.  It's hard to see the what the middle ground would be.

Edited May 14, 2016 by ComicFan777

[lemotomato]

This morning, in summary:

- OTA and Olicity broken up at the end of the season, with only a minor Diggle/Felicity scene in the upcoming eps
- SA still talking up the BMD storyline and "expecting" the kid to show up again
- SA teasing about the stupid GA goatee 

So annoyed right now.

Edited May 14, 2016 by lemotomato

[calliope1975]

I'm okay with Olicity not getting back together until next year as long as I'm left with some hope at the end of 423. (And I better get my 100th episode wedding with a special appearance by Slade Wilson.)

I'm also okay with Digg taking a break from the team, but he better not leave his family. Hard nope on that. 

[apinknightmare]

Are they broken up still, or is their status "ambiguous"? I've seen people saying both, and one is way better than the other. 

Also, did SA say he thinks William will show up again, or that Oliver will see him again? Because those are two different things.

[Morrigan2575]

During the lounge he said ambiguous but not back together and getting married in S5.  

during his panel he said they're in a better place but not together. said S4 ending will not give the warm fuzzies like S2 beach scene did.

from that i gather that Olicity are not back together but maybe talking it out or open to working on their issues, eventually. 

[jay741982]

I'm thinking the team being fractured at the end of the season is likely Diggle and Thea leaving town. Oliver and Felicity not together romantically but helping with the recovery. Nice ending that makes us so anticipating the next season NOT. 

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Also, did SA say he thinks William will show up again, or that Oliver will see him again? Because those are two different things.

From the tweet posted in the spoilers only thread, SA "expects" to see William again. Which could mean anything, I know, but I'm kind of just like, "Dude. Let it go. No one likes that storyline except you."

[AyChihuahua]

21 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

This morning, in summary:

- OTA and Olicity broken up at the end of the season, with only a minor Diggle/Felicity scene in the upcoming eps
- SA still talking up the BMD storyline and "expecting" the kid to show up again
- SA teasing about the stupid GA goatee 

So annoyed right now.

I'm still fine with them either getting back together or not, bc I'm positive they'll end up back together at some point. I feel like Angel's idea of her asking him to dinner kind of is an ambiguous ending, bc dinner is not reconciliation. Feels a bit weird to be the optimistic one, but I think all that will be more or less fine.

OTOH, they bring the moron spawn back, in any way, and I'm out. For every episode he's in, even if that means the whole season if his horrible lying hag of a mother dies and the kid comes to live with them. NOPE, not doing it, not watching that little moron color and cause problems and get kidnapped and Oliver doing ANYTHING TO SAVE HIS SON OMG. I'm going to hope that's just SA's passive-aggressiveness talking, the same whiny baby personality characteristic he displayed the last time that hideous SL was up and going and he was defending it unto death. I can frankly see him doing it and Guggie doing it, bc they seem to get REALLY stubborn when the audience doesn't like something they think the audience should like, but I'm going to HOPE that Berlanti would nope it hard. They calculated acceptable ratings losses from LL dying and I think they're probably fine with what's happened there, but they surely can't think they could handle a second ratings drop from bringing that hated SL back (and this isn't just my opinion, nearly ERRYBODY hated that shit). Laura Hurley and JustAboutWrite were pretty serious shippers, and they still mention how much that SL permanently lessened their enjoyment of the show, Oliver, and Olicity.

[HighHopes]

He apparently said again how much he liked the baby mama storyline. 

[wonderwall]

Can I just say I love @AyChihuahua's... colorful use of language when talking about the kid? :p

[calliope1975]

7 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

He apparently said again how much he liked the baby mama storyline. 

Well he is wrong and should feel bad about himself. 

I kid but stop punishing me with this stupid story line! 

[lemotomato]

To add fuel to your fire, @AyChihuahua, when asked at his panel about what he would have changed about the BMD storyline, SA answered that he wouldn't have sent the kid away. I'm just, really? Not the part where you lied to your fiancee/partner for months? Ugh.

[Chaser]

I want someone to ask him what about the storyline he likes. Details.

[Morrigan2575]

One thing i took away from DR's lounge was that there are things that they just don't view the same way fandom does. DR was flabergasted that people didn't even like Raylicity, he had no idea that people found Palmer Creepy or a Stalker. 

I guess SA is in the same area, his view of Baby Mama storyline is totally different from fandom's

 he seems to view that storyline as great for Oliver and the show.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

To add fuel to your fire, @AyChihuahua, when asked at his panel about what he would have changed about the BMD storyline, SA answered that he wouldn't have sent the kid away. I'm just, really? Not the part where you lied to your fiancee/partner for months? Ugh.

See, I think he's really, really stubborn and passive-aggressive. I really do. It's frankly EXTREMELY unattractive in a 35-year-old man. That's like 4-year-old behavior, and he should really grow up a bit. Like hey, keep being a beer-drinking frat boy, fine, but stop shitting all over the audience that makes your attendance at cons something you make money from. We all know what the reviewers said about all that shit, so it's not as if it's just pissy Olicity shippers. Basically every segment of the audience hated that storyline, and the fact that he keeps talking it up is unbelievably childish. I really wish someone would challenge him on it at a con.

[AyChihuahua]

11 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Can I just say I love @AyChihuahua's... colorful use of language when talking about the kid? :p

I don't like kids under the best of circumstances. I find them boring and sticky and germy. This particular kid is even worse, bc for whatever reason they portrayed him as shockingly stupid, but otherwise just...a roadblock. I was fairly okay with what I saw of Akio, who was at least kid-version of interesting (snarky and smart). Spawn probably can't even bathe himself, and probably doesn't know enough to wash his hands after he goes to the bathroom, just amping up the usual stickiness and germiness. 

The worst part is that kids always like me. Like, always. I think bc I am as direct with kids as I am with adults...or bc they, like cats, just sense and enjoy flouting dislike.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I guess SA is in the same area, his view of Baby Mama storyline is totally different from fandom's

 he seems to view that storyline as great for Oliver and the show.

Given how he is with his own child, I totally get that this would be an appealing storyline for him IF at any point during it Oliver actually got to be a father. Makes no sense.

[ARLES]

I think Stephen likes the idea of the kid story line. I just wish he admitted how badly it got executed. 

[AyChihuahua]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

One thing i took away from DR's lounge was that there things that they just don't view the same way fandom does. DR was flabergasted that people didn't even like Raylicity, he had no idea that people found Palmer Creepy or a Stalker. 

I guess SA is in the same area, his view of Baby Mama storyline is totally different from fandom's

 he seems to view that storyline as great for Oliver and the show.

Men often can't even comprehend how women view things. They have no point of reference. For example, even otherwise fine men don't understand why women wouldn't like being cat-called, that we find it threatening and scary. I once had my boss come to my hotel room on a business trip while I was in a tank top and pajama pants, and it scared the crap out of me. He didn't try anything, I don't think he even had the thought of trying anything, but I found it quite scary...it's not as if I could just not let him in, he wanted to discuss work and he was my boss. So for a woman, for example, Ray coming to her apartment door in the morning when she wasn't expecting him and probably didn't think he even knew where she lived, is scary. But for a guy, it's just no big deal...he didn't have bad intentions, so who cares? But you can't KNOW the guy doesn't have bad intentions!

[tangerine95]

He's never going to admit how bad that storyline was. I think he is aware he didn't actually get to play a father because how could he not be, he didn't film more than a single scene of interaction with the kid. But he seems to have this headcanon of what that storyline was that we never saw onscreen and imo that's what he loves so much. 

About the kid coming back, I really don't think he ever is. They seem to be pretending he doesn't exist.I think they are aware how badly received that storyline was and I don't think they ever intended it to be more than a roadblock for olicity anyway. The kid got the only storylines a kid can get on Arrow, he caused relationship issues and got kidnapped, he's done now lol.

[AyChihuahua]

I think quarks has said that some of the big affiliates and others can veto particular SLs, not just Guggie and Berlanti, so PLEASE, PLEASE, someone veto it. NOBODY liked it. We had professional reviewer after professional reviewer talk about it sucking. 

So yeah, I'm going to be hopeful that it's just SA being SA, but the kid won't come back or hopefully be any kind of plot point ever again.

It's funny, that whole SL made me like Oliver (and even the show) a lot less, and SA's attitude about it makes me like him a lot less.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think he likes the idea of Oliver being a dad, but that never happened on screen. He will never admit the writers used it as a plot point, he is too stubborn for that and it was an idea he suggested and was eager to play so he would also have to admit he was wrong in suggesting it given the result and saying "I was wrong" seems to be another tning he has troubles doing judging from his history on social media.

I don't think bringing the kid back is something the writers are interested in doing so I don't really care about what SA says. 

[wonderwall]

SA was even talking about how great it would be to see Oliver change diapers and everything...

... And then there EBR is shaking her head at everything in regards to Felicity being pregnant or having a baby lmao

[AyChihuahua]

For me, personally, even without the lying I'd have hated it. A little less, sure, but IMO there's no place on a superhero show for a 9-year-old kid. Basically no show ever has been improved by the late addition of a kid, particularly when the show isn't ABOUT kids. I mean no one ever says "Wow, the best season of Gilmore Girls was the season in which they brought in Luke's random kid!"

Baby Sara's okay bc she's the kid of a supporting character, and she's a baby, and she only appears VERY occasionally (and doesn't talk, and has never been kidnapped, which...yay!).

[Midnight Lullaby]

I share EBR's feelings LMAO. What would they do? Stuck Felicity with a baby the whole day while he goes out fighting crime? No thanks.

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

SA was even talking about how great it would be to see Oliver change diapers and everything...

... And then there EBR is shaking her head at everything in regards to Felicity being pregnant or having a baby lmao

He really needs to think about what kind of show he's on. 

[TwistedandBored]

53 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

He apparently said again how much he liked the baby mama storyline. 

 

I can understand why he likes that story since the show went overboard trying to make Oliver's lie and the whole story look good. 

[nksarmi]

5 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Could this maybe mean a Diggle/Lyla split? Because in 421 they did have that O/D talk where Oliver basically told him not to lie to Lyla because essentially look how that worked out for him with lying to Felicity.

Hmm. 

That's a yucky idea. Him not being able to admit that it wasn't self-defense shouldn't make them break up. Lyla seems practical enough to understand why it would be hard for him to cop to that and she has no problem killing people herself.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Maybe SA should make Code8 a movie about him being a dad so he can get that out of his system because on Arrow that's a big NOPE.

[apinknightmare]

23 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

That's a yucky idea. Him not being able to admit that it wasn't self-defense shouldn't make them break up. Lyla seems practical enough to understand why it would be hard for him to cop to that and she has no problem killing people herself.

Yeah. I actually don't get why this lie is a big deal? It's not like Diggle just up and shot him for no reason - he threatened Lyla and Sara. Lyla would've done the same thing if the tables had been turned, and that doesn't change the truth of what she told him - Andy hadn't been his brother in a long, long time. So, if she understood the lie, then she would've understood the truth, because while the threat wasn't as immediate as a potential GSW, Andy still did threaten him.

Now if Diggle does some other questionable stuff and he continues to act like "the man (she) divorced," then I get it. If it's just the lie that has repercussions...IDK. Seems pretty weak to me.

Edited May 14, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Midnight Lullaby]

Maybe the lie could create a wedge between Lyla and Dig with him acting distant because what he did weights on him and he doesn't want to be truthful with her but she can see something is up. I could see it having repercussions this way.

[Morrigan2575]

According to DR the lie to Lyla and how it affects Diggle should be explored in S5. i say should, he said it would

[looptab]

Re: the kid, to be fair as far as I remember most reviewers hated that it was clear as a day it was used as an Olicity roadblock for drama, but some weren't that opposed to Oliver as a father. Still, I hope they keep that kid and every other kid he might have fathered far, far away from the show.

[ComicFan777]

We've already suffered through the stupid manufactured BMD with Oliver/Felicity...now they are moving on to John/Lyla...  I think that Lyla would understand after she finds out the whole story.  Why are the writers trying to drive a wedge between them?  

I just want something to look forward to...can't we just have more Oliver/Felicity/Diggle/Lyla team-ups in S5 instead?  Pretty please...

Edited May 14, 2016 by ComicFan777

[looptab]

Diggle/Lyla need to be the couple with their head on straight. Please. Throw what you want at them, but have them facing it and get over it.

[Guest]

I'm of two minds about the baby mama crap. On one hand I think SA is a tad passive-aggressive with some things and if fandom dislikes something a lot, he kind of digs his heels in even more? Fandom hated the baby mama stuff in 408 and what does SA do? Post a picture of himself and the actors and raves about how wonderful the storyline is. LOL. On the other hand I think he genuinely wanted to see Oliver as a father because he's a dad himself so I can appreciate why he likes it.

I'd respect it more if he said he liked the storyline but felt it was executed badly. We never even got to see Oliver as a father. It was a plot point and bad one at that.

But I said earlier, I can totally see them bringing William back, particularly if having a family with Felicity is something they want to discuss in the future. You can't start a family with someone and pretend your other son doesn't exist. Felicity would never want that either. So he'll definitely come up somewhere. And I say this as someone who never wants kids on Arrow unless it's a flash forward at the very end. I really don't want pregnant Felicity lumbered with a baby tbh. No thank you!

 

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

That's a yucky idea. Him not being able to admit that it wasn't self-defense shouldn't make them break up. Lyla seems practical enough to understand why it would be hard for him to cop to that and she has no problem killing people herself.

I agree. It's not as if I want them to split. LOL. But I wonder how else Diggle will 'pay' for lying to his wife.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

On the Spawn thing, I think it's unlikely bc what people remember about that storyline is the lying and breaking up. Any mention of that crap or bringing back the kid is going to dredge up those negative feelings. It's just how people react...the audience's immediate reaction will be negative. Also, Berlanti did a similar (unbelievably stupid) storyline on Everwood, and after the kid was born and the immediate storyline ended, it didn't come up again, from what I can remember. I think the baby was adopted out, and that was pretty much that (it's been years, so correct me if I'm wrong). So Berlanti didn't QUITE learn his lesson, but hopefully he at least learned that once the audience reacts badly, LET IT GO. (And so far the kid hasn't come up in any way but as a joke since 15, which is heartening.)

OTOH, Guggie and SA are stubborn asses, so who knows. 

[apinknightmare]

49 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Maybe the lie could create a wedge between Lyla and Dig with him acting distant because what he did weights on him and he doesn't want to be truthful with her but she can see something is up. I could see it having repercussions this way.

Possibly. I guess I just don't see what would be so difficult about telling her the truth? I mean, he lied and said Andy threatened him, when in actuality he threatened Lyla and Sara. Lyla might not have cared if he threatened her, but I think she would've been okay with Digg doing what he had to do to keep Sara safe. It's not like he shot Andy while he wasn't looking, or grossly misrepresented what happened. If he had I could see this tearing him or them up, but that's not what happened. 

But cheap drama from lies is nothing new here, so I guess we're in for more of that.

Edited May 14, 2016 by apinknightmare