Spike: Out. For. A. Walk... Bitch.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I'll answer your question about whether or not Spike should have let Robin kill him with a question: was Robin supposed to thank Spike for hunting his mother down like a dog and killing her? Say what you like about whether or not Wood had the right to exact revenge, but Spike was the one who targeted Nikki, it wasn't the other way around. He wanted to bag himself a Slayer, and he did, taking an *actual* protector out of the field. Was Wood just supposed to shrug and say, "Eh, who cares? She only gave birth to me. What's *really* important is that you have a soul now, so let's be pals." Less sarcastically, the point is that Spike is the one who started that particular war. He's the one who fired the first shot, and if the idea is that I should think Wood was wrong for wanting to kill him over it, then it's a fail on Joss' part.

 

Can you explain why it's a straw man argument to say the suggestion seemed to be that guilt is for sissies? Because a lot of your defense of Spike seems to hinge on the idea that it was necessary for him to "reclaim his darkness" by way of putting the coat back on, and the next logical step after that seems to be that he should *also* rid himself of the guilt that should be attached to the reason he has that coat in the first place. If Spike's ability to be a warrior hinges on the coat, which I don't buy because he'd killed a Slayer years before he took it off of Nikki's dead body, it seems to me that he should look at the coat as a crutch he needed to wean himself away from, not rely on. If you want to go with a metaphor, it seems like the equivalent of an alcoholic just "visiting" the liquor store for old time's sake, and just about as safe. If the soul equals conscience, why would you want the constant reminder of what you used to be around?

 

As for the Dumpster Sex, I think its worth noting that Buffy literally has this "Oh, my God, I wish I was dead again" look on her face wile Spike is getting his cookies, shall we say. We see her looking over his shoulder, but we don't see his expression at all. Because the entire point is that she *doesn't* enjoy what she's doing and that she's only seeking him out because *he's* the one who told her she came back wrong. And when he found out that he could hit her and not have the chip go off, it must have been just like being with Dru again. As I said earlier, if Buffy had had her mind right, Spike is the *last* creature on earth she would get within ten feet of. Is it your opinion that if she hadn't died and come back and been all messed up, Spuffy would have happened at all?

[Wilowy]

Spike killed Nikki pre-Buffy, pre-chip, pre-ensouling, pre-everything. Evil demon.

 

I like what @Dianthus said earlier that he came to be an evolver, responding to the people and situations around him, and modifying his behavior based on those influences. 

[Jazzy24]

Jazzy24: In a sense, it is the same old Spike. He's still a demon. The big difference between him and Angel is that Spike had changed to a point where he wanted his soul. Angelus never wanted it. For him, it was a prison, nothing more. Soon as he was free, he went right back to his old ways.

What's more, he killed the only person who could restore his soul, or so he thought. Nor did he ever do anything, once his soul was restored, to fix it in place. You could argue that he had a moral obligation to do so, once he understood that aspect of the curse.

Spike never changed, he was the same Spike that the audience was introduced to in season 2 just more restrained. Spike's only change was falling for Buffy and wanting her to love him was his motivation for getting his soul he wasn't doing it for anyone but himself and it was all for the wrong reasons.

The big difference between Angel and Spike is that Angel felt guilt for what he did as Angelus(even tho he really shouldn't because him and Angelus are two different peoples sharing a body), I never saw Spike having an ounce of guilt for what he did as well Spike. I just never saw anything significant with Spike having a soul he was the same to me.

Spike killed Nikki pre-Buffy, pre-chip, pre-ensouling, pre-everything. Evil demon.

I like what @Dianthus said earlier that he came to be an evolver, responding to the people and situations around him, and modifying his behavior based on those influences.

I remember reading a quote from JM about Spike and he went on to say that Spike was a poser. He molded himself into a "badass" or whoever he thought the woman he loved wanted at that time. He said Spike was like that even as William before becoming a vampire. I don't have the quote but I will try to look for it and post it.

As for the dumpster sex - Buffy's been dumped, she's down in the dumps, and she will dump Spike. It's a visual metaphor. Also, Spike is shielding Buffy with his body. So you've got the suggestion of Spike as her shield. That scene is the only good part of an otherwise lousy ep.

Spike is not her shield. First off what could he possibly be shielding her from? She's the Slayer with powers she's stronger than him, a better fighter than him so he can't be possibly shielding her from those monsters she fight daily. Is he shielding her from the harshness of life because she faced that reality throughout season 6 and 7. Buffy has never had or needed a shield and it's disgusting if such a violent thing as Spike was hinted at being it. And dumpster sex was a gross depressing thing showing the viewers how far Buffy had fallen from a perky girl who went to college and had a great relationship with her friends to a depressed beaten down shell of a person that has gotten so low that she is having sex with a monster in the ally of a fast food place by a dumpster.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Jack Shaftoe: Spike has already worked with Buffy against a common enemy in s2 and s3. He does the same thing in s4. What's suicidal in that?

 

Spike had no reason whatsoever to think the Initiative guys would turn out to be Buffy's enemies. Or that his chip would work for a significant length of time. He does not age after all, he was in no hurry. A survivor (or anyone not begging for the vampire equivalent for of the Darwin award, really) would not rush to the Slayer for help, especially not so soon. Spike didn't even bother to check if he could still hurt demons and vampires.

Also, even if Spike's information were valuable, Buffy had no reason not to kill Spike once he had spilled the beans. And she couldn't exactly provide a brain surgeon to remove the chip in any case, which made the whole thing all the more contrived.

 

 

He's there again in Family. Not Angel. Not Riley. He's the black sheep of said family, but he's family all the same.

 

Which is precisely the part that makes no sense. In the world of sane people, those who have tried to murder you multiple times are not part of the family, period. The only reason the Scoobies and even Riley tolerated Spike was plot-armour. Hell, even the local "demon community" just threw him out of the bar instead of killing him with extreme prejudice for helping the Slayer.

 

 

Spike isn't the only vampire Buffy doesn't Slay. Dru and Harmony live to guest star another day. She does, however, run Angel thro with a sword to save the world. Spike knows this. That's the Buffy he's expecting.

 

So you are saying Spike managed to forget the 54858 previous times when Buffy had a good reason to dust him but did not, even before their, for lack of a better word, romantic relationship? Sorry, not buying it.

[Wilowy]

This is getting a little contentious and you're speaking directly to each other while denigrating each other's opinions. Dial it back a notch. Thx.

[Dianthus]

Willowy: Yes. Spike killed Nikki as an evil demon. He didn't know at that point what direction his unlife would take. Vampires are very much in the now.

The way I see it, Spike's alignment went from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good over the course of the show.

 

CobaltStargazer: Of course I'm not suggesting Robin should thank him and shrug it off. That's ridiculous. My point is, Buffy and Spike put their trust in him and he betrayed them. There's no reason for them to be gracious about it. They have enough to worry about already without adding sneak attacks by a supposed ally to the list.

[Earl Is Dead]

Although I haven't had much to add, I've enjoyed this conversation.  And this:

 

Spike's alignment went from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good over the course of the show.

 

... is great.  If I had to pick a camp, I would not be in the Spike-Is-Hero one, but I do love that description. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

 

CobaltStargazer: Of course I'm not suggesting Robin should thank him and shrug it off. That's ridiculous.

Of course it's ridiculous. it's so ridiculous that no one who had their mind right would ever agree with it. But I brought it up because that was the impression I got from the episode, that Wood was wrong to care more about his mother being murdered than thinking Spike's existence should be allowed to continue. And then Buffy came onto the scene and reinforced the idea that Robin was wrong for wanting to destroy the animal who killed his mom for thrills. And for her coat, of course. And given that Spike had *just said* that he didn't give a piss about having killed Nikki, that (to me) means that Buffy backed up his uncaring attitude by proxy. Maybe they didn't have to be gracious, and I'll get to the subject of Spike and betrayals in a tick, but was it necessary for them to basically say that Nikki's life was worthless and that Spike was all that mattered?

 

As for going behind Buffy's back, Giles *tried* to talk to her about Spike being a danger because of the trigger, and she more or less stuck her fingers in her ears and said "LA LA LA LA LA! I can't hear you!" Hell, she even refused to keep him chained up because it might have made him uncomfortable. I would think that she would have at least wanted to keep him from trying to kill the potentials she was supposed to be protecting, but I guess she thought the poor woobie's comfort should come first, and I don't know what else I'm supposed to think of that other than I was supposed to be nodding and agreeing with her.

 

Re: betrayal. Considering that Spike betrayed the Scoobies when he sided with Adam, because he thought Adam could help him get the chip taken out, he should have been a pile of ashes way before Wood showed up. And he also told Giles and Xander to their faces that he was going to find a then-homicidal Faith so that he could lead her to them and watch her kill them. That's not a sneak attack, that's an overt threat. The *only* reason he didn't get swatted like the annoying fly he'd become was because of plot-armor. It's no different than him letting Drusilla murder that girl at the Bronze so that he could feed off of her because he couldn't kill her himself IMO.

[Wilowy]

I felt the whole 'Buffy siding with Spike against Wood' thing was exactly what she said it was. Not that she didn't assign any value to Nikki's life, but that she didn't have any time for their blood feud just then. They were putting together a line of defense against Hell and Spike was one of their fiercest warriors. I didn't get any 'woobiness' vibe at all. She was like "Deal with your bullshit later. We've got a world to save."

[buffyjunkie]

Must say I agree with you Willowy.  Refresh my memory, hadn't Buffy also just found out that Giles went behind her back to assist Wood in his endeavor?  And hadn't she already admitted that is she were to face Glory now she would be willing to sacrifice Dawn if need be?  I believe Buffy had gone fairly Machiavellian by this point.

 

 

The big difference between Angel and Spike is that Angel felt guilt for what he did as Angelus(even tho he really shouldn't because him and Angelus are two different peoples sharing a body), I never saw Spike having an ounce of guilt for what he did as well Spike.

I did although Spike certainly manifested it differently than Angel.  Of course, I view Spike's story arc as encompassing his actions on AtS as well. 

 

Of course, I refuse to spend excessive energy wrapping my brain around the second half of S7 any longer.  Than again, I do credit JW that, IMO, he means the dumpster sex to be degrading and human relationships with vampires unhealthy.  YMMV.

[CletusMusashi]

"Out of My Mind" is still the best explanation for the retcon.

The doctor wasn't lying about wrong tools or potential brain damage. (Not to be confused with Potential brain damage, which is a whole 'nother issue.) After the failed chip removal, Spike immediately started dreaming about Buffy and becoming increasingly weird in his behavior.

Angel's flashbacks do not show Spike in any period of time whatsoever as a cuddly sensitive poet. Only brain-damaged Spike "remembers" that.

Human, pre-vamp William may or may not have been as harmless and geeky as brain-damaged Spike remembers. The "effulgent" poem may be a real memory, or it may be a side effect of the brain damage. Since the only person who originally liked it was Drusilla, an argument can be made either way.

Spike wasn't a special magical unicorn vampire who (except for a zany evil phase that just happened to occupy at least three seasons of the show,) ultimately chose to get a soul. Spike was the same completely awesome completely evil bastard who we first met in Season 2. And, yes, he was smart enough to work with those he'd rather kill when it really absolutely suited him to do so, but that certainly didn't mean he wouldn't backstab them later, if he knew he could. S4 put him in a more extended period of vulnerability than he was used to, but he still had no problem with doing what he actually could, aka Yoko-ing. The S5 stuff... that's a different flavor.

I mean, he actually really liked Dawn! In Season Five.

So, it was the chip's conditioning, plus brain damage from botched surgery, that led us to the late-season Spike who actually went out and got himself a shiny new soul. 

Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what this hypothesis does to clarify any issues about late-Spike's responsibility for anything, good or bad.

Sometimes it really is easier just to have a magical unicorn vampire who just isn't all that evil. What's Harmony doing these days, anyway?

Edited June 11, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[DAngelus]

 

[buffy] was like "Deal with your bullshit later. We've got a world to save."

Strange that it came out "You try anything again, he'll kill you.  More importantly, I'll let him.", then.  Buffy isn't praising restraint over emotion; she's justifying Spike's petty, pointless violence (biting Robin) and threatening Robin with more.  "The mission is what matters", but Buffy has no interest in getting Spike and Robin to work together, she's just letting Robin know that she's chosen Spike.

 

Actually, on rereading the transcript, I see Spike lowered the bar to "He even so much as looks at me funny". So I suppose we're lucky the next script didn't include this bit:

CUT TO:

 

Spike snaps Robin's neck, bites him and drinks his blood.  Everyone is shocked.

 

WILLOW:  How could you do that?

SPIKE:  What? He was looking at me funny!

XANDER:  His contact lenses were irritating him! He just sent me upstairs to get some moistener!

SPIKE: Oh, well.  Honest mistake.

 

(silence)

 

SPIKE:  Buffy, they're looking at me…

 

(everybody runs)

 

BUFFY:  My hero!

 

 

(Like that couldn't have happened? Please.)

[Wilowy]

HAHA! Well, I dunno about that. But yeah, she chose Spike over Wood because he was the better, stronger, faster, superhuman, VAMPIRE warrior and they needed that strength on their side. However well-trained Robin was, he was no match for Spike.

 

I daresay she would've said the same to Riley at that point in the game.

[DAngelus]

 

they needed [spike's] strength on their side

Except that the main foe (the First) was immaterial, and if she was concerned about the Ubies, then a battalion of Riley's troops would probably have been far more helpful.  (Also Spike has spent most of the season under the First's mind-control, and the First has bragged about how it intends to use him, again.  Given that even Robin is able to "trigger" Spike here, it doesn't appear that the Prokarite Stone was that much of a cure.)

 

Really, it's amazing how much better the season would have been if it had been revealed that Buffy had a Slayer dream and was protecting Spike because she knew he would have to be an inhuman sacrifice at the season's end.  And all her coddling is just her leading him up the garden path.  But Joss would rather pluck his own eyes out than burn the Spuffy fans that badly.  

[Cobalt Stargazer]

 

Except that the main foe (the First) was immaterial,

Actually, the First was called *incorporeal*, but considering what immaterial also means, that's a good description too. ;-)

 

More seriously, as DAngelus says, Buffy's coddling of Spike came off to me as Joss stringing the Spuffy shippers along, wit one bone being thrown to the Bangel shippers when Angel brings his magical bling over from his network. I would have probably minded it less if he had just made a decision to put them together and have that be that, or (more awesomely) have it turn out that she was just softening him up so he'd sacrifice himself at the end. *That* would have been sticking to the mission at any cost, which was supposedly what she was saying when she told Robin to put his personal stuff on the backburner.

[Wilowy]

Didn't really get that Joss was stringing anyone along by that point. I mean... last episode and all. It did feel like a tip of the hat to both ships, however. Not being overly invested in either side (though as I've said before, if gun to head it would be Bangel), I was delighted to see them both on the front burner, even for just a few minutes. 

 

I wanted more from the Core Four, that small aside as they walk down the hall wasn't enough (though the call-back to Giles' last line in WTTH was wonderful). They could've taken away ALL Kennedy's lines and spent more time on the Scoobs. 

[Wilowy]

Oh! Also wanted to add that the only reason Robin was able to trigger Spike was that he had no idea what was coming. Once he figured it out, all bets were off and he was back in the saddle. Doubtful that would have happened again. 

[Dianthus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, for all the good it will do. Everyone betrays Buffy at some point or another. Most of them have souls when they do it. Some of them more than once (lookin' at you, Giles). Spike's been part of the team far longer than Robin, and they've been through a lot of cr*p together. It didn't surprise me in the least that she sided with him. It's also not the first time she's chosen a souled vampire (Angel) over a human (Faith).

 

This may get me in (more) trouble, but I feel it needs to be said: Seems like some folks around here just don't like Spike, and are PO'd that Robin didn't succeed in dusting him.

 

Earl Is Dead: While we disagree on the Spike as Hero issue, I'm glad that description works for you. It seemed appropriate. You noticed the thru line, yes? Chaotic. You're never quite sure where Spike is gonna fall, and that's part of his appeal to me.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Dianthus

[Earl Is Dead]

Yes, I noticed.  I didn't dislike Spike as a character because, soul or no soul, chaotic, good, or evil, I found him consistently entertaining.  And as I've said elsewhere I have greater issues with S6 than S7, so the events of Lies My Parents Told Me don't really bother me.  Since we're on the topic though, I would not have liked to see Wood dust him (though in my eyes he'd have been justified if he did) because Wood was kind of a boring character to me and that wouldn't have been a very fitting way for Spike to exit the show.  And I took Buffy's, "More importantly, I'll let him." as just a seriously Pissed Off utterance that she wouldn't have ever followed through on in reality.

 

As much as I enjoyed Spike on S5 of AtS, I think that his sacrifice at the end of Chosen was an excellent and fitting way to complete his character's arc. If there were any way to view his journey as a hero's journey, that would have been it.  It seemed like having him show up on AtS was kind of an afterthought.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

 

This may get me in (more) trouble, but I feel it needs to be said: Seems like some folks around here just don't like Spike, and are PO'd that Robin didn't succeed in dusting him.

Since I'm the one who opened fire about it in the first place, I resemble that remark. :-)

 

I loved early Spike. *Loved*. He was a bad-ass who had no time for either the Master's pecking order or Angelus' psychotically over-complicated plans. ("Its a big rock. I can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big.") And I loved the fact he was so devoted to Drusilla, that he could turn on a dime and be screaming at someone one second and then be soft-voiced and gentle when Dru was around. Say what you like about Dru and her 'Daddy' issues, but what could have been more perfect than love's bitch being eternally enthralled by the cracked porcelain doll who made him what he was to begin with? *That's* a love story, and no, I will not examine what this says about me.

 

And then he became popular. Really popular. And it turned him into this weird hybrid of the Bad Boy Woobie, which is a trope that I loathe (Damon Salvatore, Logan Echolls, I'm looking at you) and Poochie, who everyone must talk about even when he's not onscreen. He became Buffy's only confidant while her real friends were totally ineffectual at helping her, and eventually her strongest fighter, even though Angel said in an earlier episode that she was stronger than he was and could beat him up without much trouble. No one character should ever become so important to a show that they're untouchable, whether its Buffy or any other program. I could even knda-sorta-maybe forgive it a little that Joss destroyed his own premise in order to keep Spike around if, at any point, the character had done some actual reflecting on his actions and come to genuinely regret them, *outside of* whether or not it made him look good to the object of his obsession. Being sorry that you did something terrible to someone doesn't cost anything, and to me it's kind of the whole point in changing your behavior in the first place, that you don't want to be that person anymore. If you're not sorry, or "don't give a piss" to quote to poet himself, then that shiny new soul you went to all the trouble to get is either defective or they gave you the wrong one, Spikey.

 

So it isn't just that I wish Robin had dusted him and am PO'ed because he didn't succeed. Hell, I wish Dawn had followed through with her threat to set him on fire. Instead, it came off as a ploy that said, "Poor Spike, he's so sad because the Niblet doesn't like him right now, and all he did was try to rape her sister. Don't you feel sorry for him?" I don't like feeling manipulated to feel one way or the other, *Joss*. If old history like Spike killing Nikki doesn't count because it happened years ago, then what's the statute of limitations after which consequences are no longer a possibility?

Edited June 12, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[taanja]

 

The big difference between Angel and Spike is that Angel felt guilt for what he did as Angelus(even tho he really shouldn't because him and Angelus are two different peoples sharing a body),

 

Different opinion here!

 

Angel and Angelus were the same person. Maybe that's how Angel justified to himself and others that he preferred to be evil and fought each and every time against having his soul restored. When he "lost" his soul (what was it? two? three times at least?) he reveled in the evil of it all. He reveled in his acts of violence. and each and every time he had to have his soul forced back in! He never sought it out.

 

[Dianthus]

Cobalt Stargazer: I don't like being told how to feel, either, so I can relate.

Having said that, I never felt like I was being forced in a direction I wasn't ready to go, either. I wanted to see where Spike's journey would take him. Living it vicariously made it far more immediate/interesting to me than Angel's journey, which was primarily told in flashback (at least 'til he got his own show).

Also, I'll be honest, I was shocked the first time I heard Spike say he "didn't give a piss" about Nikki. But, that's just Spike. He was a vampire, and the Slayer killed his kind. He was a fighter, and the Slayer was a fighter, and he saw defeating her as a challenge.

The first time it's a fluke, the second time it's a coincidence, the third time....That's why he went after Buffy initially.

Un-chipped, un-souled Spike would've killed Robin without a second thought. Leaving him alive, letting him off with just a warning, was progress. Spike was evil for over a century. That's gonna carry over, IMO. Besides, you don't have to be a nice guy to be a Good Guy.

David Fury was never my favorite Buffy writer anyway. He couldn't even get the message of The Hunchback of Notre Dame right for Crush. In Hunchback, Quasimodo is redeemed by his love for Esmeralda, just as Spike will be redeemed by his love for Buffy.

 

Taanja: Exactly! Angel's soul was forced on him, and he never did much of anything with it until Whistler finally dragged him up out of the gutter. Spike did more to fight evil with just a chip in his head and his love for Buffy than Angel did in over a century. I can't help but think what a difference Angel could've made had he joined the fight sooner rather than later.

Angel makes a big show of his guilt, and there's all the brooding, but Spike ain't got time for that sh*t. He's too busy lending a hand!

[Jazzy24]

Different opinion here!

Angel and Angelus were the same person. Maybe that's how Angel justified to himself and others that he preferred to be evil and fought each and every time against having his soul restored. When he "lost" his soul (what was it? two? three times at least?) he reveled in the evil of it all. He reveled in his acts of violence. and each and every time he had to have his soul forced back in! He never sought it out.

It was emphasized on Angel that Angelus and Angel are two different people when they fought each other.

Angel didn't even remember the things Angelus did when he was brought back in Becoming 2. And Angelus was considered pure evil something without humanity he wasn't capable of getting his soul because he didn't want it, he was considered the worst vampire ever, him and Angel are not comparable in any way.

And Angel did not use Angelus as a way to justify anything there was a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference personality wise between Angel and Angelus.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Also, I'll be honest, I was shocked the first time I heard Spike say he "didn't give a piss" about Nikki. But, that's just Spike. He was a vampire, and the Slayer killed his kind. He was a fighter, and the Slayer was a fighter, and he saw defeating her as a challenge.

 

Justifiable homicide, then? Ad no, that's not snark, I'm being serious. It's actually kind of an interesting concept, except for the part where it undercuts the idea that Spike was capable of humanity even before the soul. You might not have to be a nice guy to be a Good Guy, but I would think that regret for snuffing out someone's life, no matter the reason, would be part of being a "normal" human. If it's no different than a soldier killing another soldier in battle, maybe Buffy should have pinned a medal on him and thrown a parade after he regaled her with the story of the glorious time he killed those two other Slayers. (Okay, *that* was a little snarky.)

 

As for Spike being too busy lending a hand to bother with guilt, here's the thing about that. Any idiot can go around beating people up. That was Faith's issue, that she had the power and the strength but the emotional maturity of a ten year old. And no one to teach her any after her first Watcher was killed, since Mrs. Post wasn't really a Watcher and Wesley was...Wesley. And it's worth noting that it was actually Faith *pretending* to be Buffy when Spike heard the "warm champagne" speech at the Bronze, so I guess in some ways Spuffy is Faith's fault. I hate to blame her for it, because I like her, but well...hmm. :-P

 

To bring it back to Spike, if (*big* if) it was justified for him to kill Nikki and the Chinese Slayer, whose name we never learned, what about the murders before and after that? Did he not "give a piss" about them either? We never find out, but I can only presume that he didn't since I have no proof that he did. What's so ironic is that he kind of expresses remorse once he moves over to AtS, but that's only in the aftermath of getting his hands cut off by a lunatic who was empowered with Slayer essence by a spell that was Buffy's "brilliant" idea. Karma? Justice? Payback? You decide.

[DAngelus]

Wrong vampire, but I can't let this pass, and it does pertain (indirectly) to Spike:

It was emphasized on Angel that Angelus and Angel are two different people when they fought each other.

 

The scene in Orpheus is a drug-induced hallucination; I can't see that as "proof" of any sort.  Angel has consistently referred to his actions when soulless as things he did, not some other person.  (From Angel:  "I killed them. I killed their friends and their friends' families…for a hundred years I offered easy death to everyone I met, and I did it with a song in my heart.")  In Innocence, the soulless Angel makes the same point from the other direction; he considers Buffy's interactions with Broody Boy part of his life, not something detached from it.  ("She made me feel like a real human being. That's not something you just forgive.")

 

The use of "Angelus" to indicate the unsouled Angel and treat him like something alien is a bit of fanon the Bangel 'shippers pushed to keep their "precious" (oh, barf!) unsoiled, so they could justify the "come home, all is forgiven" position that Xander rightly tears Buffy a new one for in Becoming, Part 1.  The only character on-screen who attempts this hairsplitting-by-nomenclature is Jenny Calendar in Innocence ("Then…Angelus is back"), and Angel promptly shoots her down during the hallway face-off:

 

JENNY:  He's not Angel any more.

ANGEL: Wrong!  I am Angel!  At last!

 

That demon's been there every second since Darla bit him in the alleyway, soul or no soul; to treat the demon as separate from the soul is wilfull blindness, IMO.  Yes, the Angel writers tried to muddy the waters to whitewash their lead character (who went from killing dozens when soulless in S2 here to absolutely nobody when soulless in S4 there, the fat blowhard) but the examples I cite are a) precedent and b) obviously more relevant to this series, IMO.

 

Angel didn't even remember the things Angelus did when he was brought back in Becoming 2.

 

Becoming, Part 1 showed us that the resouled Angel's amnesia is only temporary; this would have been the case again, had Buffy not spoiled his memory process by distracting him with the sword through his chest.

 

GLOATING GYPSY:  You don't remember? You will.  Soon, and for the rest of your life.

ANGEL (as the memories hit): No, no…

 

But the soul changes Angel; he still has the demonic impulses, but he's repulsed by them.   He can tell right from wrong and tries to do right, not merely being Buffy's Pet Asshole instead of a Free-Range Psychopath.  Devoted-to-Buffy Spike is no more moral than Devoted-to-Drusilla Spike, and does just about as much "good" over the course of the show.

 

(And then he gets stuck with the shittiest soul ever, as he barely changes after his ensoulment.  Still no remorse, still no morality other than "If I kiss Buffy's ass, maybe I'll get to fuck her".  Still an asshole to anyone who isn't currently Buffy.)

 

Seems like some folks around here just don't like Spike, and are PO'd that Robin didn't succeed in dusting him.

 

Spike's an unrepentant mass-murdering demon. So it's not that I "just don't like Spike"; to quote Xander: "I don't need an excuse.  I think that 'lots of dead people' actually qualifies as a reason."  And frankly,  I'm more "PO'd" that nobody had dusted Spike's ass long before 7.17.

 

Inside the plot, Buffy keeping this creep around makes her own ethics look weak and undercuts the moral basis for all of her (and the Scoobs') actions.  If Spikey can be tamed via Buffy's Vagina of Redemption, then why not Adam?  (He's still part human, and I bet he's got some wicked sex-toys in that multipurpose arm of his…)  Why, instead of taking a header off the tower to lick Glory, doesn't she just lick Glory and put her head (and tongue) to better use?  By the time we get to the point where Fucking Andrew can casually say "a lot of Buffy's people are murderers, actually", the rot is overwhelming.  Cause, whacky me, I didn't sign up to watch a show where the "good guys" are the murderers with Hawt Abs.

 

Outside fo the story, having Buffy coddle and date vampire #2 (when vampire #1 had worn out his welcome long ago, IMO) smells of Joss stealing from himself, a descent into hackery motived by a desire to pander to fans of the Anne Rice "sensitive, tortured vampire" trope that the show used to mock.  (Spike himself was put on the show specifically to mock this:  "People still fall for that Anne Rice crap? What a world…")  Angel could get away with being this cliché because there were specific reasons given why he was unique; if a few years later we're giving the same treatment to any anorexic with a bad dye job, well that kind of undercuts the point of the Angel character, and the stories told about him.  And, even though I think Angel probably should have stayed gone after S2 (and by the end of S5 of his own series, I hate Angel far, far more than I could ever hate Spike), I do like the stories told about Angel on this show, and don't really think that having a late-addition comic relief character piss on them is such a good idea.

 

Having said character completely eat the series and sideline the characters I actually liked, not to mention the title character herself, is a whole other ball of wax, but people were making specific Angel v. Spike comparisons, and even on that basis, Spike's "redemption" royally pissed me off.  JMO.

 

ETA:  Cobalt, does your Damon Salvatore reference mean you've actually watched The Vampire Diaries?  Because this series (and the glorification of Spike) have made me resolved to never watch any "Poor Woobie Vampire" series again, and I could tell that's what TVD was going to be, just from the promos. (And don't get me started on True Blood…)  I'm rather surprised you did…although Nina Dobrev is ungodly hot, I grant you.

Edited June 13, 2014 by DAngelus

[Cobalt Stargazer]

DAngelus, not to get crass, but I need a cigarette after your post.

 

And yes, I did subject myself to The Vampire Diaries for a hot second, but I couldn't take it for long. The only thing that separates Damon from being exactly like Spike is that Damon has brown hair. And crazy eyes.

[Jazzy24]

This may get me in (more) trouble, but I feel it needs to be said: Seems like some folks around here just don't like Spike, and are PO'd that Robin didn't succeed in dusting him

I loved Spike season 2 he was fun, entertaining, and badass but he should have stayed gone or been killed a long time ago.

I mean after kidnaping Xander and Willow in season 3 Buffy and Angel just let's him walk away when he should have been dusted. He was completely useless in season 4 and season 5 was when he got pathetic turning into "Buffy's bitch" Season 6 I watched him and the main character of the series abuse each other and him. Season 7 was about Spike and characters got pushed aside for that. I was angry at what was done to such a great villain like Spike.

[CletusMusashi]

S2 = Awesome, snarky, charismatic, chaotic villain, brought in to show us that not all Big Bad vamps were cult members.

Still capable of putting his instincts aside long enough to cooperate with humans briefly, but I wouldn't bet my life on him not killing me afterwards.

 

S3 = Very drunk, and at the tail end of a long drive during which he had nobody to talk to, but presumably the same character, just very drunk and lonely.

 

S4 = Originally the same as S2, but then, with the chip, forced into a longer period of cooperation, at least superficially. At no point in S4 did he have any problem with getting Buffy killed by Adam. All he wanted was to get his chip out so he could kill people again.

 

Hiatus= Summer time. Summer in Sunnydale is like Halloween. Absolutely nothing happens except for a few random red-shirt vamps. I think all the named villains go to Cleveland or something.

 

S5= Spike is, at the beginning, still primarily concerned with regaining his ability to kill people. He doesn't even want to associate with the Scoobies out of boredom, only for money. When Buffy enters his crypt, he is annoyed by the intrusion. He would rather associate with Harmony than Buffy, and we know from future complaints by Harmony that he has been rambling on at great length about Drusilla. Not Buffy. No signs yet of him being anything except Season 2 Spike+The Chip. He's still in Sunnydale because at this point the Scoobies can be manipulated into being more of an asset than a threat, and because whatever is left of The Initiative is his best bet at getting the chip out. So, still thinking pragmatically.

 

Then: His brain is further tinkered with, and we see actual personality changes kicking in. As I've said before I subscribe to the Watsonian hypothesis that there was a physical brain alteration behind this. Even if his brain later on healed, the newly formed neural paths would still be there, affecting newer ones. But even if that's not the case, from a purely Doylist standpoint it still appears that OOMM is the ep where the writers really get excited about unveiling their new and "improved" LuvsBuffE4Eva!Spike.

 

All of a sudden he's having erotic dreams about her, which are obviously a brand new thing, because he is horrified. He is making Harmony dress up as Buffy. Not that I didn't think that was hilarious, but it was new.  And after that, he's crawling through the city dump like a madman, collecting manequin parts and old smelly wigs so that he can build a Buffy doll to talk to. He's having a Buffy sexbot built. He's digging a secret bunker for his Evil Under Lair of Underwear. This is all just a level of desperate crazy prolonged self-inflicted butt-monkiness that I can not fathom even Season 3 or 4 Spike degenerating to. I mean, if he came home one day and Harmony was dressed up like Buffy, or Willow, or perhaps even Angel, he might dig it, but the other stuff is just crazy. I mean, come on. This is a Bad who maintained dignity after pretty much having a piano dropped on him!

 

And it is only in the context of this new OOC batshit Spike that we see things such as, for example, his heroic martyrdom against Glory or his actually caring for Dawn so much that he even continues to look out for her when Buffy was dead. He wasn't even snarking about how "I don't want the bloody Slayer coming back from the grave and staking me for getting her brat sister killed." The acting made it pretty clear that his personality, from early S5 to the S6 pilot, had changed more than it had in all of the seasons previous to that. 

 

In S6, his relationship with Buffy is so flawed and squalid partly because she is hardly herself any more, and when a crazy person is giving another crazy person a lot of confusing mixed signals, what you end up with is a mess. Season 5 never got that bad because

a. Buffy hadn't gone through the big death trauma yet, and

b. They were so busy fighting Glory that, by the time Riley was gone, there simply wasn't time for a relationship.

 

Once Buffy died and came back at least as crazy as Spike ever was, he no longer understood what the best way to deal with her was. It's actually quite possible that he didn't get the soul because he honestly, sincerely just wanted to be "good," enough for her, but because he thought it might act as a sort of decoder ring to help him understand WTF was going on with Buffy's flunctuating emotions. After all: we know from his previous romantic history that "crazy" is not a deal-breaker, as long as he knows how to make it work for him.

 

A lot of people take the "brain damage" hypothesis as"ha ha ha, it's a bad plot change, so Spike must be brain damaged, ROFL!" but vampires heal fast. And when that damaged brain tissue regrows... what imprints does it have? I would honestly be fine with the suggestion that a vampire's demon soul retains memories that it downloads right back into the new vamp-brain, kind of like a computer backup. In a world with ghosts and resurrections, that would actually be my go-to guess. But we've never actually seen, say, a vampire get blasted in the head with a shotgun, grow a new face, and go on with his life. And, honestly, if it was that simply, couldn't Spike simply blow out the chip with a handgun and then heal? The chip is presumably connected to a part of the brain that controls social bahavior. The area around the chip was surgically damaged. Then, that area healed quickly, forming new grooves based on whatever stimuli seemed appropriate. What was happening just then? Buffy beating the crap out of Spike.

Edited June 14, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[KatWay]

What I appreciated about Spike was that the show didn't just gloss over the fact that he was a monster, despite his repositioning as the sort of romantic male lead in S6. That was still supposed to be Buffy's low point, because he was still a soulless vampire who only stopped murdering people because he couldn't do it anymore. I've seen him being compared to Damon Salvatore and that is a huge difference IMO. Spike was always treated warily by the scoobie gang, if he wasn't treated as the harmless comic relief. Sure, his characterisation could be very uneven (S2 Spike was the most consistent character, after that the show kind of alternated between dangerous bad guy, comic relief and morally ambiguous romantic lead), but they never attempted to justify his killings or his nature because he was hot or a woobie or because his feelings had gotten hurt. Human Spike was this pathetic, weak and lovelorn wannabe poet who got turned into a sadistic killer. I never thought he was a special snowflake vampire really, he always did seem a bit more human than most vamps (and based on that episode with the Judge, some vamps are apparently just more in touch with their humanity than others).

 

The fact that he was capable of enjoying TV shows and loving Dru didn't make him any less of a vicious killer though. The whole rehabilitation thing only occurred because of the unique circumstances - I don't think if Spike had never gotten the chip and therefore ended up socialising with the scoobie gang often he would have ever stopped being the villain and a killer. But because all of that happened, I could also buy his misplaced crush on Buffy in S5 (which really was more creepy than anything) and his conflicted feelings for her later on. He loved Dru, desperately, so he clearly was capable of something like that. At that point Spike was really not anything, he couldn't be a normal vampire because of the chip but he also couldn't be an actual person because he had no soul. So it was either this or that and I totally buy Spike going to get a soul, because Spike was always shown as someone who loved obsessively and would do anything for his love (even if she didn't want him to) and I suspect a bit of "You think I'm a monster? I'll show you I can totally be good" with a bit of "and then she'll have to love me" thrown in. I mean, I also preferred the idea that they gave Spike his soul despite him wanting the chip out, but I don't think Spike defiantly and aggressively (that's how he came across when he left) marching off to prove himself was out of character at all. It's not like he wanted a soul because he wanted to be good (how could a soulless vampire want that after all), he wanted a soul so he could get Buffy back (which was delusional but also not really something that would occur to a soulless vampire).

[Dianthus]

Cobalt Stargazer: not justifiable homicide - Honorable combat. A challenge. As a Slayer, Nikki had a fighting chance. How many times do I have to say it? He's not human. He's a demon. He's not thinking/acting like a human here. His latent humanity is just that - latent. There's a tiny, flickering light buried deep down inside him, but it's just a glimmer.

I think Spike really does feel guilty about the innocents he killed who were just that: innocents, incapable of defending themselves against him. OTOH, what makes Robin so special that Spike should throw himself on Robin's mercy? Is Robin supposed to be a stand-in for every one of Spike's victims?

Also, Spike offered to step aside as Buffy's demon fighter. Buffy wanted him to stay.

Neither is Spike just "beating people up." He's helping buffy train the Potentials. Going from killing Slayers to training them? I'd say that's a significant difference.

When he killed Nikki his goal was to make a reputation for himself. Spike was a killer. That's not in dispute. No one's pinning any medals on him.

As for Faith pretending to be Buffy: Yes. As far as Spike knew, Buffy made the first move, and it obviously affected him.

 

DAngelus: A souled vampire is still a vampire. Besides, Angel's had his soul for over a century.

 

KatWay: Unique circumstances. Yes. I've made this point myself, somewhere along the way. Also, "I'll show you!" is totally Spike, IMO.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Dianthus

[Cobalt Stargazer]

 

OTOH, what makes Robin so special that Spike should throw himself on Robin's mercy? Is Robin supposed to be a stand-in for every one of Spike's victims?

Dianthus, here's what I keep picking at - that you seem to be speaking at cross-purposes. In an earlier post, you said that Spike was too busy lending a hand to bother with guilt, but conversely that it was important that he threw himself on Buffy's mercy and awaited her judgment. So let's say I agree with that, that it was a sign of growth. What's ironic (and when I say 'ironic' I mean 'ridiculous') is that Joss expects me to take it seriously that Spike feels bad about what he tried to do to Buffy, but from all visible evidence doesn't give a damn about what he did to Robin. If the point is that an *attempted* rape is worse than a *successful* murder, then fine....I guess. But if that *is* the point, then doesn't that back up what DAngelus was saying abut Spike being a prick to everyone who isn't Buffy? Even latent humanity should IMO come to the fore when you're confronted with the fact that this was someone's mother you killed. At the time, Spike may have seen Nikki as just a Slayer, but isn't his association with Buffy supposed to have shown him that there's actually a person in there as well?

 

And because there's always one more bullet in the chamber, if defeating someone in combat is honorable as long as they have a fighting chance, then shouldn't Angel have tried to recruit Dana after she neatly amputated Spike's hands at the wrists? After all, he was just as strong as she was and she still trounced him soundly. Sure, she was hopelessly insane due to the Slayer-creating spell, but if being a strong fighter is all that counts as opposed to the capacity for empathy or guilt or even common decency, then why Spike and not Dana? Is she less worthy than he is? Or are some threats *too* dangerous/unpredictable, and therefore they should be contained or dispatched without thinking of the possible benefits for the White Hats? Since Souled!Spike is IMO no different than Unsouled!Spike, he probably *would* have killed Wood if the guy had stepped on his shoe by accident after the incident in the garage. He'd have killed him and felt good about it and probably would have cut off his ears as a trophy while Buffy swooned at his heroic manliness (barf) in the background. Because he's just that klassy.

 

As fr whether or not Spike should have thrown himself on Robin's mercy, I think I can be honest and say I'd have preferred that to the gross display I actually got. Because to me it came off that Spike had no *clue* that he had done something he should be ashamed of, and given his own mommy issues that were revealed in the same episode it's particularly nasty to me that he'd take such pleasure in grinding it in that Nikki didn't love her son because she wouldn't give up Slaying. If he meant that,  that Nikki was incapable of loving Robin because she wouldn't stop being a Slayer, he couldn't have actually thought much of Buffy at all, could he?

[Wilowy]

Buffy never had to make that Sophie's Choice, though, @Cobalt Stargazer . I'm not grokking your analogy, there.

[Dianthus]

We really do seem to be talking at cross-purposes here, and, honestly, I'm beginning to find this convo rather tiresome.

Spike is too busy lending a hand to make a big show of his guilt. Plus, he's distancing himself from all the awful things he's done so he can continue to function. That's his coping mechanism. He puts up a big F*ck you front to the world. He's done it for over a century. His alignment has changed, but his personality, his way(s) of coping with the world, haven't. Not entirely.

It's not just about who's the best fighter, either. Maybe I wasn't clear. When I say Spike viewed taking on Nikki as a challenge, that's how he sees it, IMO. That's his POV, not mine. As far as he's concerned, killing Nikki wasn't the same as killing, say, a five year old kid who couldn't fight back.

Also, Dana taking his hands isn't the same thing at all. She drugged him & chained him up. Hard to fight back in that position. He himself refers to Dana as a monster, too. Angel counters that she was an innocent victim. Spike replies that so were they, once.

 

I'm getting tired of feeling like you're putting words in my mouth. What you think I'm saying is not what I'm saying at all. It's very frustrating.

 

As I've said, Buffy had already chosen Spike over Robin when he offered to step aside so Robin could be her new demon fighter. For all they've been through together, some of it not very pretty, Buffy knows Spike. She wants him there. She's not swooning over him. She's forgiven him his trespasses, as he has forgiven hers ("Love. Give. Forgive."). Having forgiven Spike herself, it's not very surprising to me that Buffy is less than patient with Robin's actions. Also, as I've said before, he betrayed the trust she placed in him.

 

This is serious two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right territory for me. Spike has changed. He willing put himself under Robin's supervision, trusting that Robin would only act if necessary. Instead, Robin deliberately triggered him to bring out the demon inside him. Robin doesn't care about who or what Spike might become, or what he's been through to get where he is. All Robin cares about is revenge. 

In that sense, he is a liability.

 

Spike could've killed him, but didn't. He could've lied to Buffy. He didn't. They both gave Robin a pass, as his actions were understandable, however wrong-headed. That doesn't mean there weren't any consequences for his actions. I don't have a problem with that. He still gets to be part of the group.

[Wilowy]

Repeating the same things... repeatedly, doesn't make them more true.

 

Am thinking we need to make some new words and keep moving forward with the discussion instead of circling about, okay everyone? 

[Dianthus]

Just FYI:

Dianthus barbatus is the botanical name for a flowering plant more commonly known as Sweet William.

I'm currently grooving on OUaT's Cap't Hook for many of the same reasons I love Spike.

Han shot first.

[CletusMusashi]

So... any hypotheses about why Dracula owes him  money?

[ShadowHunter]

For me Spike worked best in S2 and the few appearances he made after that but once they had him fall for Buffy that was the end.  I really feel like that ruined him.

The only times I liked him after that would be the flashbacks of him in the past. His character became that of the last person who finally leaves the party when he should have left an hour before.

 

He was only trying to be better for Buffy because he just catered to the girl he was in love with. If Buffy had wanted him to be and act like he did when he was with Dru he would have done that.  He and Dru made sense to me but his feelings for Buffy never did.

[Dianthus]

@CletusMusashi: There's a Spike v. Dracula comic that goes into it.

 

@ShadowHunter: You're not alone in that opinion. But the obsession with Slayers was there, it just got rechanneled. He does mold himself to the woman he loves. Men do stuff to impress women all the time. That's the way of things. What's remarkable here is that Spike is acting against his demonic nature to do what's right or selfless. OTOH, he has plenty of perfectly selfish vampiric reasons for other stuff that he does. It all balances out, for me. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Actually...

 

The one time Spike *doesn't* mold himself into what he thinks a woman wants is when he's with Harmony ("I love syphilis more than I love you"), and if anything he tries to get her to be Buffy for him because he can't have the real Buffy. This disregarding of Harm's 'personhood', for lack of a better word for it, comes to seem more in-character for Spike than his slavish devotion, because he disregards everything about Buffy that doesn't revolve around her being with him. If it isn't directly related to his insistence that she's in love with him, that what they have is a relationship, he isn't interested. Like most stalkers,, Spike only thought that Buffy's feelings mattered when they reflected positively on him, which is why he was so desperate to convince her that there was something wrong with her. If he had cared about her, wanted her to be healthy, he wouldn't have had both hands locked around her ankles trying to drag her into the gutter with him. YMMV.

[Wilowy]

Spike always (even before he was sired) had that slavish devotion to women he deemed 'better than' himself, regardless of if they really were. Cecily/Halfrek - upper class, Dru - better vampire, and Buffy - world savior.

 

I always saw his thing with Harmony like she was easy sex, but he really didn't know what to do with her because she was just so irritatingly besotted with him. Narcissism is virtually always a cover for insecurity and Spike for the life of him couldn't abide someone who actually flung herself at him. Even Dru, the love of his life, wandered off with other creatures when the mood, or the moon, took her. ;) He loved her all the more for it. 

[Dianthus]

Hey CS!

In Intervention, the 'bot recognizes Buffy's friends. Why? Because "Buffy" isn't Buffy otherwise. She thinks she's the Slayer. Why? Because "Buffy" isn't Buffy otherwise. When Giles cries out "Buffy!" (obviously in distress), the 'bot turns away from Spike to go to him instead. Why? Because that's what Buffy would do.

[DAngelus]

But wouldn't that be mostly Warren's work?  Warren knows Buffy, he went to Hellmouth High.  (Not for the full four years, but long enough to make friends and enemies, to learn what the general student body knew about Buffy.)  He's just met her again during I Was Made to Love You; indeed the first thing Buffy does when she shows up at his place is confirm that Warren knows who (and what) she is.

 

Bottie talks like a bad romance novel when she's around Spike; that's more likely Warren's doing, as he's been more exposed to that sort of imagery.  (I doubt Drusilla ever rhapsodized about Spike's "washboard abs"…)  She knows some facts that Warren doesn't (as seen on the viewscreens) and her remarks about Angel are certainly straight from Spike's lips. But that Buffy will protect her friends (or indeed, simply "civilians") in a fight?  Not exactly a super-duper secret, I'm thinking.

 

And really, not to bash Spike, but I can't see him making that a point of emphasis.  That Buffy would do anything for Dawn, yes.  For Giles?  Spike has spent the past year telling Giles that Buffy's over him; I just don't see Spike helping write code about the depths of the B/G bond.  But JMO.

Edited July 3, 2014 by DAngelus

[Cobalt Stargazer]

If nothing else, Real!Buffy would never in a million years have asked Anya how her money is. :-P

 

Even more snarkily, considering what Spike wanted Bottie for, there are several other logistical questions that are perhaps better left unasked. I'm surprised conversational skills were even something he asked Warren to include.

[Dianthus]

DAngelus: It's true that Warren knew Buffy, but he's fulfilling Spike's request, and presumably, following the "specs" Spike gave him.

 

Cobalt Stargazer: There's a progression here, as Spike himself progresses - from the mannequin that bears only a superficial resemblance to Buffy to the 'bot to Buffy herself. My point, and thanks for missing it entirely, is that Spike wants Buffy. The 'bot is his idealized version of her.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

@Dianthus, I didn't miss your point at all. I know Spike wanted Buffy. Joss couldn't have hit me over the head with that any harder  than if he had actually used a brick. And I was actually feeling a tiny bit sorry for him when Giles told him, "There is no way to Buffy" and to leave the Magic Box and not come back. And then he botched it by going to Warren and basically saying, "Make me a femmebot version of her so I can fulfill my fantasy." Which.....ew.

 

Also, when he actually *does* get the real Buffy and not the idealized version of her, he's not happy with that because she isn't bragging to her friends that they're having sex, like that's something she should be proud of. On top of that, he keeps trying to separate her from her friends because they might be able to help her and therefore take her away from him, so did he *really* want the others to know they were doing the dirty? Beyond that, it remains my opinion that a Buffy who was mentally and emotionally well would never in a billion years make the beast with two backs with Spike. All that talk about how he represents her Slayer self doesn't scan for me, since if that was true she'd have been having sex with Angelus, who at least looked like someone she actually*did* love.  When Spike asks her, "Do you even like me?" I'm like, No, you fool, she *doesn't* like you. She doesn't even like herself right now. If she did, she wouldn't be with you.

 

If the show hadn't shot itself in the foot by spoofing the pairing in Something Blue, making it clear how ridiculous the idea of them being together was, it might have worked. MIGHT. With better writing, and less glorification of Spike, I wouldn't have loathed it, but since those two things didn't happen, things are what they are. JMO.

[Jazzy24]

@Dianthus, I didn't miss your point at all. I know Spike wanted Buffy. Joss couldn't have hit me over the head with that any harder than if he had actually used a brick. And I was actually feeling a tiny bit sorry for him when Giles told him, "There is no way to Buffy" and to leave the Magic Box and not come back. And then he botched it by going to Warren and basically saying, "Make me a femmebot version of her so I can fulfill my fantasy." Which.....ew.

Also, when he actually *does* get the real Buffy and not the idealized version of her, he's not happy with that because she isn't bragging to her friends that they're having sex, like that's something she should be proud of. On top of that, he keeps trying to separate her from her friends because they might be able to help her and therefore take her away from him, so did he *really* want the others to know they were doing the dirty? Beyond that, it remains my opinion that a Buffy who was mentally and emotionally well would never in a billion years make the beast with two backs with Spike. All that talk about how he represents her Slayer self doesn't scan for me, since if that was true she'd have been having sex with Angelus, who at least looked like someone she actually*did* love. When Spike asks her, "Do you even like me?" I'm like, No, you fool, she *doesn't* like you. She doesn't even like herself right now. If she did, she wouldn't be with you.

If the show hadn't shot itself in the foot by spoofing the pairing in Something Blue, making it clear how ridiculous the idea of them being together was, it might have worked. MIGHT. With better writing, and less glorification of Spike, I wouldn't have loathed it, but since those two things didn't happen, things are what they are. JMO.

This and so much word.

But Spike NEVER "got" the real Buffy, nobody ever "got" Buffy except Angel and that was when she was a teenager.

[Wilowy]

Well, and Giles. But in an entirely different way.

[Moo]

But Spike NEVER "got" the real Buffy, nobody ever "got" Buffy except Angel and that was when she was a teenager.

I actually always thought it was the other way round. Angel never got the real Buffy, because what he had was the Buffy before life truly kicked the shit out of her. He never saw her down and dirty, at the end of her rope, back against the wall. He saw bubblegum Buffy - the Buffy who cared intensely about school dances and being normal and having a life. He knew kid Buffy - as creepy as that sounds lol. He didn't know her as an adult.

 

Spike, on the other hand, got to see every side of Buffy that there was. He saw the good, the bad, the ugly - it's why his speech to her in Touched actually gets through to me as an audience member. He truly knows the best and worst of her in a way that no-one else ever did.

[Jazzy24]

I actually always thought it was the other way round. Angel never got the real Buffy, because what he had was the Buffy before life truly kicked the shit out of her. He never saw her down and dirty, at the end of her rope, back against the wall. He saw bubblegum Buffy - the Buffy who cared intensely about school dances and being normal and having a life. He knew kid Buffy - as creepy as that sounds lol. He didn't know her as an adult.

Spike, on the other hand, got to see every side of Buffy that there was. He saw the good, the bad, the ugly - it's why his speech to her in Touched actually gets through to me as an audience member. He truly knows the best and worst of her in a way that no-one else ever did.

I didn't mean in that way about knowing the best and worst of her though I do think she shared a lot of that with Angel when they always met up.

But I'm saying that he never got that part of Buffy who shared everything with someone. Yeah she went to him for sex and sometimes talked with him and she did let out her emotions but Buffy always held some part of herself away from Spike even till the end.

But Buffy never held back with Angel she was always telling him things like her worries and fears. Yeah Spike saw the good, bad, and ugly but she would share all of that with Angel. Giles and Angel are the relationships where I think Buffy was her most healthy and where she gave it her all, and up till they ruined the Buffy/Giles relationship they were her best relationships IMO.

[Moo]

I definitely agree that Buffy/Giles was her best relationship - before it was ruined in S7. Most definitely, he was her person more than any other. But still, there were parts of her he either didn't understand - her continued love for Angel, for instance - or simply couldn't accept as true. I always thought Giles never really accepted that Buffy had a darkness in her. He wanted the best for her - the way any father does - and was a little blind to her darker leanings. But yes, I still agree that he was her person in a way no other character on the whole show ever was.

 

With Angel, I do agree that she was open with him in a way she never was again in her later relationships - Riley in particular suffered from that. I think it's because Angel and Buffy were each other's first loves - and that person always has that special place that no-one else can really touch. Leaving aside how damaged the relationship left Buffy in the end, Angel would always be that ever-elusive perfect love that she couldn't have. It's why IMO she felt able to confide in him in ways she couldn't with her friends - in Forever, for example. But do I think the Angel that appeared in Chosen really knew the Buffy that was in Chosen? No, I don't. And vice versa. They were entirely different people by then, shaped by experiences and life in a way they couldn't come back from. It's why even though a part of me will always be a Bangel shipper I did not for even a second think the cookie dough speech was an actual promise from either of them of continuing their relationship in the future. I think it was their way of always leaving the possibility there, the dangling promise of going back to your first love - something that probably feels very familiar and secure, even though it's long past its time. There's a comfort in that I think they both needed. But they didn't know each other any more IMO.