Angel

[Lisin]

Here's your place to talk about this character. If you have a fun name for it let me know in the comments and I can change it.

[Jazzy24]

Angel :-) fangurl moment

I love Angel my all time favorite vampire so dark and brooding.

My favorite moment of his in BTVS is in season 3 the episode "Bad Girls" when that fat vamp screamed at Giles and Wesley about who the name of the guy who had the neckless and Angel walks in all vamped out and says "his name is Angel" I love that episode just for that moment.

[KirkB]

I loved that scene.

I also liked this one.

Giles: There's an... invisible girl terrorizing the school.
Angel: That's not really my area of expertise.
Giles: Nor mine, I'm afraid. Uh, it's fascinating, though. By all accounts it's a, a... a wonderful power to possess.
Angel: Oh, I don't know. Looking in the mirror everyday and seeing nothing there. It's an overrated pleasure.

[Jazzy24]

Another thing about Angel that I loved in BTVS is that he walked away from Buffy to give her what he couldn't as a vampire, like the light and a physical relationship. Also I do think that Angel leaving Sunnydale was not all about Buffy I like to think Angel needed that change for himself too.

Though I don't think Angel leaving had any positive outcomes for Buffy.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Jazzy24

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎10‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 5:57 AM, Jazzy24 said:

Angel :-) fangurl moment

I love Angel my all time favorite vampire so dark and brooding.

My favorite moment of his in BTVS is in season 3 the episode "Bad Girls" when that fat vamp screamed at Giles and Wesley about who the name of the guy who had the neckless and Angel walks in all vamped out and says "his name is Angel" I love that episode just for that moment.

Yeah that's a great moment although not my favourite for Captain Forehead, that has to be

Spoiler

cutting off Lindsey's hand and then the music swells and he tells him 'Don't believe everything you're foretold'. 

 I cheer every time I watch it. 

On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 5:47 PM, KirkB said:

I loved that scene.

I also liked this one.

Giles: There's an... invisible girl terrorizing the school.
Angel: That's not really my area of expertise.
Giles: Nor mine, I'm afraid. Uh, it's fascinating, though. By all accounts it's a, a... a wonderful power to possess.
Angel: Oh, I don't know. Looking in the mirror everyday and seeing nothing there. It's an overrated pleasure.

Yeah and that's why Buffy/Angel is so much better than certain other fictional vampire franchises, all the mystery and seductiveness undercut by humour and a certain cynicism. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 8:04 AM, Jazzy24 said:

Another thing about Angel that I loved in BTVS is that he walked away from Buffy to give her what he couldn't as a vampire, like the light and a physical relationship. Also I do think that Angel leaving Sunnydale was not all about Buffy I like to think Angel needed that change for himself too.

Though I don't think Angel leaving had any positive outcomes for Buffy.

Absolutely, if you love them let them go and that's what he does. I don't think he's thinking of himself at this stage though that will come later, look at him in the first episode of his own show. 

 It did benefit Buffy, it forced her to move on from her first love and grow up. True it may have resulted in the disastrous Spuffy but as a metaphor we all have a partner who is no good for us at some stage.   

[Joe Hellandback]

Why is Angel such a resonant character?

1. DB is a damn good-looking man, the epitome of tall, dark and handsome. 

2. He's far from perfect, he goofs up a lot which is refreshing and makes him more identifiable and likeable. 

3. He's funny in a very deadpan manner, doesn't always take himself too seriously, very different from certain other more 'sparkly' vamps.

4. Over and over again her sacrifices himself for those he loves, he is the definition of a hero.

5. He is tragic, his history and his curse give him this sad melancholy that would befit a gothic poet. 

[Halting Hex]

On 4/9/2014 at 9:57 PM, Jazzy24 said:

My favorite moment of [Angel's] in BTVS is in season 3 the episode "Bad Girls" when that fat vamp screamed at Giles and Wesley

Took me a moment to realize this was about Balthazar; he was a demon, not a vampire.

When I think "fat vamp", I think of the girl minion from The Freshman:  "No, the fact that you're fat makes you look fat.  The shirt just makes you look purple."

Anyway, I enjoy Angel on this series, but I still can never get over Buffy & company letting him back into their lives after Season 2.  "What is this, 'come home, all is forgiven'?"  Exactly my thoughts, Xander.  Exactly.

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

1.) As I get older, I find him less good-looking, but he was the perfectly brooding, dark handsome man for this. And it also helps a lot that he wasn't a known actor when he was cast, because that added to his initial mysteriousness.

 

2.) I find it interesting how even Good Angel becomes a character living far more in the moral greys towards the end of his own show.

 

3.) That only started in his own series before. On Buffy, he was fairly serious for most of his run on the show.

Really? Who's your crush now? Yes you're right and that perhaps makes him all the more 'human' than how he starts out, but that was the whole point, Angel's quest to be a 'real boy'. I think Angel was funny on Buffy, he even remarks "I'm a funny guy" although I'm dammed if I can remember the ep? 

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Took me a moment to realize this was about Balthazar; he was a demon, not a vampire.

When I think "fat vamp", I think of the girl minion from The Freshman:  "No, the fact that you're fat makes you look fat.  The shirt just makes you look purple."

Anyway, I enjoy Angel on this series, but I still can never get over Buffy & company letting him back into their lives after Season 2.  "What is this, 'come home, all is forgiven'?"  Exactly my thoughts, Xander.  Exactly.

I thought exactly the same except I was thinking of the vamp they chase in Bargaining 1, I think we may be confusing him with that character in Blade? You must remember the Scoobs NEED Angel and his abilities, Giles going to him to help cure Buffy in Earshot for instance or saving Willow in Revelations. Plus it's a recurring theme in the series, Tara is the only character who never goes bad and needs to be forgiven at some point.   

7 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Giles never quite forgives him though, does he? There is palpable tension in every scene they share post-season two, even if Giles is not as outspoken as Xander about it.

I think it makes less sense for the Scoobies to keep Spike around, as Angel himself is kind of very much an entirely different person from Angelus, more like Jekyll and Hyde like,  so it's easier to separate Angel from the horrendous things he did in season two, while Spike remains more or less the same person - with or without soul.

But that's kind of a problem with the way they started writing vampires later on, I don't think Joss ever meant for them to be able to develop beyond being evil villains or something to stake through the heart when he first conceived the show. 

True but very much a case of listening to the fans and also falling in love with the character/actor (as with KS/Joyce). But I think it works well, by the end of the series Dru is the only one of the Fang Gang who isn't redeemed, one of the themes of the series. The Scoobs can't kill Spike because he is helpless (much as Buffy doesn't kill Ben) and eventually find him useful, I don't think they ever like him even when Buffy is his pounding mat.  

[Halting Hex]

13 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You must remember the Scoobs NEED Angel and his abilities,

The number of episodes where a vampire is a crucial part of the Scoobies' efforts is very small.  (Remember that Spike rarely actually fights alongside them.)  And of course they just got done with a season where Angel was actively opposed to them.

Yes, he led Xander to the Master's lair in Prophecy Girl and his demon helped save Jenny in The Dark Age.  (Given what he later does to Jenny, I don't think he can be still riding the credit for that one.)  But he wouldn't have needed to save Willow from Gwen Post, for example, if he hadn't let her get the damn Glove in the first place.  ("That's what I love about this town; everybody's so helpful.")

Earshot is a winner for him, yes.  But most of the time, Buffy and company fight just fine without him.  Pass.

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Plus it's a recurring theme in the series, Tara is the only character who never goes bad and needs to be forgiven at some point.  

That only makes this theme even more annoying. "Character X goes bad" becomes a pretty meaningless storyline when you know they will be easily forgiven in the end.

[Halting Hex]

18 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The Scoobs can't kill Spike because he is helpless

Spike's got a hundred years of murder to answer for, and in the here and now, he's only temporarily restrained by an easily-removable piece of technology which Buffy doesn't know how it works or how long it will last.  (As it turns out, barely over three years, which is hardly a blip on Buffy's lifetime, never mind a vampire's.  Faith spends quite nearly as much time in prison as Spike does chipped.)  The episode before Spike comes running to the Scoobs with his "I'm so helpless because of this chip!" pleas, he's able to fight off a squad of trained commandos well enough to escape.

Spike can kill demons.  Guess what Buffy's Big Broody Boyfriend is?  Okay, so Angel kicks his ass every time they meet (until Destiny), but it seems a bit impractical for Buffy to rely on the Sodding Chip™ to keep Captain Forehead safe, no?

Oh, and that Instant Sister the Monks of Mindfuck give Buffy the next year?  Actually a well-disguised green ball of universe-destroying energy; nothing to say Spike couldn't attack Dawn, either. 

(Although, of course, you can't kill energy…darn it.)

[Jazzy24]

On 7/16/2018 at 6:45 PM, nosleepforme said:

Giles never quite forgives him though, does he? There is palpable tension in every scene they share post-season two, even if Giles is not as outspoken as Xander about it.

I think it makes less sense for the Scoobies to keep Spike around, as Angel himself is kind of very much an entirely different person from Angelus, more like Jekyll and Hyde like,  so it's easier to separate Angel from the horrendous things he did in season two, while Spike remains more or less the same person - with or without soul.

But that's kind of a problem with the way they started writing vampires later on, I don't think Joss ever meant for them to be able to develop beyond being evil villains or something to stake through the heart when he first conceived the show. 

I think Giles forgave Angel and the rest of the Scooby gang also, even Xander. 

In season 4 you see Angel in Giles apartment again. You see Giles and Willow asking about Angel and communicating, even helping him after he left Sunnydale throughout the show. Giles even keeps things from Buffy on behalf of Angel. So yes the Scoobies forgave Angel even Xander I like to think. Angel is the one who never forgave himself. 

[Vanessa1214]

On 7/17/2018 at 5:03 AM, Halting Hex said:

The number of episodes where a vampire is a crucial part of the Scoobies' efforts is very small.  (Remember that Spike rarely actually fights alongside them.)  And of course they just got done with a season where Angel was actively opposed to them.

Yes, he led Xander to the Master's lair in Prophecy Girl and his demon helped save Jenny in The Dark Age.  (Given what he later does to Jenny, I don't think he can be still riding the credit for that one.)  But he wouldn't have needed to save Willow from Gwen Post, for example, if he hadn't let her get the damn Glove in the first place.  ("That's what I love about this town; everybody's so helpful.")

Earshot is a winner for him, yes.  But most of the time, Buffy and company fight just fine without him.  Pass.

They also needed Angel in I Only Have Eyes For You, because only he could be "killed" by the ghost but then be resurrected to get the ghost forgiveness and closure. 

[Halting Hex]

Well, you need a vampire to resolve that plot, yes…but it doesn't have to be Angel, per se.  And he's hardly "fighting as a part of the Scoobies" there, given that he's evil and only showed up to kill Buffy.

Now, you can argue that it has to be Angel, because he's the only one that Buffy needs to work out her issues with…but that means that if Angel wasn't around, Buffy wouldn't be having the issues and (presumably) James and Grace would have stayed as quiet as they had been from 1956-1997.  Sucks that the ghosts wouldn't have gotten their closure, but OTOH this means that Ms. Frank would still be alive and George the janitor wouldn't have had his life ruined.  (Even if he doesn't recall the shooting, what does he get?  20-to-life for manslaughter?  Years in a mental hospital until he's "cured' of possession?) Doesn't seem a fair trade, IMO.

As I once wrote, "James the hissy-fit ghost loses me when he tries to kill Willow".  It shows that he has control of his actions, and that therefore the murder of Ms. Frank is on him in ways that his original killing of Grace wasn't.  (Plus, it's Willow!  Hands off the Willow, pal!) So I don't really care all that much about his closure, and can't use that as a reason to justify Angel's presence in Buffy's life.  But JMO.

[Vanessa1214]

Ok, I can see your point. I can't help it though - it's one of my favorite episodes, even if a lot of it doesn't make sense. I love the Angel/Buffy storyline and they way it connects with Grace and James. 

 

I do wonder what happened to the janitor, though. I have to let a lot of nonsensical things on Buffy go in order to enjoy it. It's just a show, I say. ?

[Halting Hex]

Marti does write much better fanfic than Joss, I agree. (I'll take "I loved you with my last breath" over Amends and "Strong is fighting!" any day.)  And she's set a clever puzzle-box of a script (even if it's obvious she had the ending first and was working backwards to get to it) and Sarah and David sell the heck out of it.  There's a reason it's a favorite.  (Included on the S2 tape set, back in the day.)

It's just when you step back and look at the larger issues (the collateral damage, the overall message being sent), that it becomes less appealing.  And thus I have trouble using it to justify Angel as a necessity, as Joe does, above.  An essential part of damn good TV?  Hell, yeah.  (Season 2 being my favorite season of TV, ever.)  A necessity from the Scoobs' p.o.v.?  Not so much, IMO.

9 hours ago, Vanessa1214 said:

I do wonder what happened to the janitor, though.

Well, let's think happy thoughts about old George.  Maybe in the mental hospital, he has some random person teach him an insanely-powerful spell, the way that Jonathan did in therapy.  Only instead of remaking the world so everyone worships him and he gets to rape a set of Swedish-American twins, George simply transforms himself, bending time and space to send himself back to Deadwood, S.D. in the 1890s where he adopts the name of Sol Starr…

Not sure what he can do about Ms. Frank, though.  Ah, win some, lose some, I guess.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 11:52 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

That only makes this theme even more annoying. "Character X goes bad" becomes a pretty meaningless storyline when you know they will be easily forgiven in the end.

Not so easily, I mean look at Willow and Angel, it takes some time. 

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 10:03 AM, Halting Hex said:

The number of episodes where a vampire is a crucial part of the Scoobies' efforts is very small.  (Remember that Spike rarely actually fights alongside them.)  And of course they just got done with a season where Angel was actively opposed to them.

Yes, he led Xander to the Master's lair in Prophecy Girl and his demon helped save Jenny in The Dark Age.  (Given what he later does to Jenny, I don't think he can be still riding the credit for that one.)  But he wouldn't have needed to save Willow from Gwen Post, for example, if he hadn't let her get the damn Glove in the first place.  ("That's what I love about this town; everybody's so helpful.")

Earshot is a winner for him, yes.  But most of the time, Buffy and company fight just fine without him.  Pass.

Come on, he was trying to be helpful with the glove. Also remember he and Buffy hunting together at the beginning of The Prom. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 9:14 PM, nosleepforme said:

None of the Buffy boys, I'm afraid. They were attractive men, but they don't really do it for me anymore, my taste has shifted.

But back then, when I was in fifth grade, I dressed up as David Boreanaz for carnivale and coloured my hair, because I wanted to be him. lol But of course nobody got it.

 

There was a rare occasion of funny Angel on Buffy. But he only really got to shine on his own show, both in dramatic and comedic moments. Even in season three, Boreanaz still appears somewhat stiff in some scenes. It doesn't drag the show down, but it's particularly noticeable in the big climax scene in "Amends".

 

Ben is different from Spike though. Ben is human, Spike still has a demon inside him, occasionally conspiring against Buffy in both season four and season five. Thus, I do think his whole integration in the Scooby Gang in season four makes zero sense, while Angel's integration after Angelus somewhat makes sense, because he's a different personality.

Got a photo of you as DB?

 Spike was useful in s4 if only as a mercenary, you had to be careful he didn't become the 'whacky neighbour' as Magic Jane says. 

On ‎18‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 4:10 AM, Halting Hex said:

Spike's got a hundred years of murder to answer for, and in the here and now, he's only temporarily restrained by an easily-removable piece of technology which Buffy doesn't know how it works or how long it will last.  (As it turns out, barely over three years, which is hardly a blip on Buffy's lifetime, never mind a vampire's.  Faith spends quite nearly as much time in prison as Spike does chipped.)  The episode before Spike comes running to the Scoobs with his "I'm so helpless because of this chip!" pleas, he's able to fight off a squad of trained commandos well enough to escape.

Spike can kill demons.  Guess what Buffy's Big Broody Boyfriend is?  Okay, so Angel kicks his ass every time they meet (until Destiny), but it seems a bit impractical for Buffy to rely on the Sodding Chip™ to keep Captain Forehead safe, no?

Oh, and that Instant Sister the Monks of Mindfuck give Buffy the next year?  Actually a well-disguised green ball of universe-destroying energy; nothing to say Spike couldn't attack Dawn, either. 

(Although, of course, you can't kill energy…darn it.)

I'm not sure about that, we never see Spike try to harm Dawn but I doubt he ever would, he seems to love all the Summer's girls. 

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Marti does write much better fanfic than Joss, I agree. (I'll take "I loved you with my last breath" over Amends and "Strong is fighting!" any day.)  And she's set a clever puzzle-box of a script (even if it's obvious she had the ending first and was working backwards to get to it) and Sarah and David sell the heck out of it.  There's a reason it's a favorite.  (Included on the S2 tape set, back in the day.)

It's just when you step back and look at the larger issues (the collateral damage, the overall message being sent), that it becomes less appealing.  And thus I have trouble using it to justify Angel as a necessity, as Joe does, above.  An essential part of damn good TV?  Hell, yeah.  (Season 2 being my favorite season of TV, ever.)  A necessity from the Scoobs' p.o.v.?  Not so much, IMO.

Well, let's think happy thoughts about old George.  Maybe in the mental hospital, he has some random person teach him an insanely-powerful spell, the way that Jonathan did in therapy.  Only instead of remaking the world so everyone worships him and he gets to rape a set of Swedish-American twins, George simply transforms himself, bending time and space to send himself back to Deadwood, S.D. in the 1890s where he adopts the name of Sol Starr…

Not sure what he can do about Ms. Frank, though.  Ah, win some, lose some, I guess.

Not fair, Jonathon doesn't cast a spell on the Costello twins so he can have sex with them, he casts a spell on himself to make himself better so they desire him. It's the difference between slipping roofies into someone's drink or taking steroids to make yourself more muscular. 

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Not fair, Jonathon doesn't cast a spell on the Costello twins so he can have sex with them, he casts a spell on himself to make himself better so they desire him. It's the difference between slipping roofies into someone's drink or taking steroids to make yourself more muscular. 

I strongly disagree with this. But, I'll wait until Superstar to deliver my epic diatribe.

[Halting Hex]

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

we never see Spike try to harm Dawn but I doubt he ever would, he seems to love all the Summers girls. 

Well, he was a bare second from killing Joyce and he tries to rape Buffy, so I'm not exactly trusting his "love" to protect the Dawnster.  More importantly, I don't see why Buffy should.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

I strongly disagree with this. But, I'll wait until Superstar to deliver my epic diatribe.

Look forward to it. 

14 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, he was a bare second from killing Joyce and he tries to rape Buffy, so I'm not exactly trusting his "love" to protect the Dawnster.  More importantly, I don't see why Buffy should.

I don't think he'd have hurt Joyce, he's just teasing Angel. As for 'that scene' we'll discuss it then, a very twisted love you get from a soulless vampire (and kinky Slayer). Buffy has Spike protect Dawn/Joyce because he's the strongest fighter they have with only Willow eventually surpassing him.  

[Pallas]

I moved several posts discussing Angel on Angel to the Angel topic in the Angel forum. 

[Pallas]

The forum for Angel has been vaulted; a topic for the show will, soon, be created in the "Other A Shows" forum.