Season 6 Speculation WITH Spoilers (UK)

[SusanSunflower]

Why no speculation that the funeral is Thomas Barrow's?  bringing together people who knew him?  I haven't seen the various spoilers  or all the various still photos ... it could provide a dramatic opportunity for an end to his story ... I can hope not ... but it just struck me as possible. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[sark1624]

I also thinks that is Barrow´s funeral, i mean, there is a lot of people complaining about Baxter letter and Coyle business. My guess is that men scapes from prison or another thing like that and go to the Abbey seeking revenge from Baxter, and Thomas dies protecting her, imo for this actions is considered the "tragic hero" and there is a funeral. Even Bates is going to realize the ultimate good action of Barrows. 

[SusanSunflower]

That would be much much nicer than a successful suicide attempt ... I just really don't see Thomas having a credible happy-ever-after ... 

[Brn2bwild]

I read Allen Leech's comments, and they strike me as highly ambiguous.

 

 

“He knows his heart lies with the family, but he also wants his own way outside of the house. Maybe he’ll start to dip his toe into the world of romance again.”

 

It could be that he's talking about romantic love, or about a romantic life of adventure.  I recall back in earlier seasons, Allen Leech and Michelle Dockery were both adamant that Mary and Tom would never get together because they were too different, she would always think herself above him, etc.  So maybe Leech was hoping for another ending where Tom actually gets out of Downton for good and makes something of himself. 

 

Have they filmed the Christmas Special yet?  It's not clear whether he's just referring to Episode 8.  Technically, Series 2 concluded with Matthew declaring that he and Mary could never get together.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[SusanSunflower]

""“He knows his heart lies with the family, but he also wants his own way outside of the house. Maybe he’ll start to dip his toe into the world of romance again.”"" 

 

This really does not sound as if Branson is already pining or in love with anyone .... people in love are not "looking for romance" somewhere else -- they're either romantic towards their beloved or the relationship's priorities lie elsewhere (making a life together) .... It certainly sounds to me as if he ends up alone ... even recently disappointed by someone, but not heartbroken (having just lost the love of his life, the woman of his dreams )... 

Edited November 4, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Andorra]

To me his comment says, that Tom will definitely find love again in the season. Wether it will be an important part of his story or not, he doesn't say (because of course he can't). But "maybe" in Allen's language for his storylines is always "he will", trust me. 

But of course it could be just a few smiles between him and the editor in the CS as well as the big Brary love story. Both is possible. 

[SusanSunflower]

People who have been happily married usually remarry ... they like being married and not having a partner, being "unattached" feels less fulfilled, even incomplete. I've no doubt that Tom Branson will not only marry again but most likely be happily married again. 

[Andorra]

I'm obsessed with this new trailer of episode 8. If I wouldn't know it any better, I'd think Tom is fighting with Mary and if he's fighting with Mary wouldn't that be a complete indication that they would end up together? People who get into such emotional fights always end up together!

 

God, why can't I let go? I'm starting to get hopeful again that Brary is not lost after all. That's pure masochism!!

 

 

I wonder if we will have a repeat of last week. Mary had an emotional phone call with Henry and then she had a so much more emotional conversation with Tom. Will she have a fight with Henry and then have an even more emotional fight with Tom?

Edited November 4, 2015 by Andorra

[Tavry]

Well Andora I am a brary shipper and I am not giving up hope . Especially after seeing this. I have rewatched episode 7 and Miss Edumnds introduction to Tom troubled me. Firstly she is introduced to Tom and Henry together . Why not just Tom and show close up reactions. A poster on another forum said Miss Edmunds and Tom shared " a moment " . No , they just had a normal conversation . Nothing special.

When she is introduced to the family and Henry says during a conversation with Charlie :

" I'm faster , I'm younger , I'm fitter"

Miss Edmunds expression turns from smiling to gawping at him with her mouth open . The camera even focuses on her for this moment.

Later when Henry drags Mary out to the track you can see Miss Edmunds in the background standing next to Tom turn around smiling as the leave.

The actress has clearly been directed to act this way . Why not gawp at Tom ? Why is she distracted from Tom to watch Henry and Mary. It seems to me although Miss Edmunds may be for Tom she will have to get over fangirling over Henry first.Hardly a convincing way to show a possible future romance for Tom .

[sunflower]

Maybe Henry and Miss Edmunds will get together, so Henry doesn't really "lose" Mary to Tom?   I mean she works for Edith and might be around, right?  hope, hope, hope...

[Nellie]

 

 

I wonder if we will have a repeat of last week. Mary had an emotional phone call with Henry and then she had a so much more emotional conversation with Tom. Will she have a fight with Henry and then have an even more emotional fight with Tom?

Ok.. I re watched this episode and the scene between to two of them after her break up phone call was very electric. She was upset because she just broke things off with Henry but Branson was very intense here. He rushes to her, holding his hands between them to comfort her. I mean anyone who walked into that moment of them standing so close like that would have thought something was going on between the two. If I'm being honest, it is such a weird scene for them to have if Mary/Talbot are end game. I made my hubby watch it for his opinion and he said the same thing even though he doesn't watch the show at all. I truly have no idea where they are going with this.

[RedWolf]

I agree. Why would Julian Fellowes start breaking down the relationship between Tom and Mary, which it certainly looks like he's doing (especially if Tom is fighting with Mary in the agents office), if not to change their status quo and build their relationship back up in a different way. This is why I am 95% sure (5% of me is resigned to the fact that Talbot could still end up with Mary, which from a narrative stand point, and from what I think after seeing previews and tv guide articles, would destroy two of the most loved characters and one of the best relationships, because I think we all can agree that their friendship is beautiful whether we ship them or not.) that Brary is endgame. Tom's lines so far about Talbot and Love are either pretty ambiguous or can be turned around later and used for himself. The ground work is already laid out (there are multiple lines of dialogue and scenes that Braries have put forth as evidence throughout series 4 and 5 ) for JF to make it endgame and go ta da this is what I was working towards. We know AL was shown that marriages between in-laws was normal back then "we read a lot of stories of the fact that that did happen back then" from an interview on The Late Late show in Nov 2013. Why would they be shown that unless TPTB either wanted them to be able to answer questions regarding whether Tom and Mary are getting together, or wanted to plant the seeds of the possibility. We know that MD hinted the possibility of more than one suitor when they had a behind the scenes interview with the cast for this series. Who could suitor 2 be other than Tom, because at this point we can cross Evelyn off of the list. It may be crazy but I can't jump ship yet, I will go down with it and regret nothing. It may seem like we hit a giant iceberg but until the CS is over anything can happen. 

 

I think that we will find out what Mary really wants when Granny talks to her, because right now it looks like she can't even talk to her best friend Tom without him going on about Talbot, Love or both.

 

Well Andora I am a brary shipper and I am not giving up hope . Especially after seeing this. I have rewatched episode 7 and Miss Edumnds introduction to Tom troubled me. Firstly she is introduced to Tom and Henry together . Why not just Tom and show close up reactions. A poster on another forum said Miss Edmunds and Tom shared " a moment " . No , they just had a normal conversation . Nothing special.
When she is introduced to the family and Henry says during a conversation with Charlie :
" I'm faster , I'm younger , I'm fitter"
Miss Edmunds expression turns from smiling to gawping at him with her mouth open . The camera even focuses on her for this moment.
Later when Henry drags Mary out to the track you can see Miss Edmunds in the background standing next to Tom turn around smiling as the leave.
The actress has clearly been directed to act this way . Why not gawp at Tom ? Why is she distracted from Tom to watch Henry and Mary. It seems to me although Miss Edmunds may be for Tom she will have to get over fangirling over Henry first.Hardly a convincing way to show a possible future romance for Tom .

I thought so as well concerning Miss. Edmunds. If she was meant for Tom why would they have her gawp at Henry? plus I don't think Tom goes for blondes ;)

 

Maybe Henry and Miss Edmunds will get together, so Henry doesn't really "lose" Mary to Tom?   I mean she works for Edith and might be around, right?  hope, hope, hope...

I hope so.

[Andorra]

Oh, you brave shippers! I love it! 

 

But it's true! The narrative from Season 4 and 5 would all make sense if Tom and Mary are endgame and it doesn't make any sense if they'r not.

 

If they're endgame, we know why Tom had to go through this transformation from socialist to another version of Matthew.  We know why Tom never got a love interest in 3 years, even though it would have benefitted his storyline. We know why he gave Mary that look when she sang Silent Night. We know why he went to America and why he  came back so fast.

 

We know why there were those remarks like "Will there be another Earl's daughter keen to take me on?" or "I can't bear to be without her" "You must bear it. And hopefully one day you'll find someone to bear it with you" 

Why someone to "bear it with you"? Who else but someone who has the same kind of loss would "bear it with" Tom?

 

We would understand why we can interprete every single sentence Tom says to Mary about Henry sounds as if he is talking about himself. We would understand why Mary and Henry lack so much in chemistry and why Tom and Mary warm the screen with their mutual understanding for each other. 

 

We would understand why Tom is such an important man in the house now. He's the one everyone turns to when something happens. Even the Dowager writes to him, because she values him so much. He even is the practical one in the accident situation: He runs, he tries to help, he draggs Henry away, he holds the water hose. 

 

We know why all suitors of Mary looked the same and all very different to Matthew. We know why she was so shallow and restless in season 5,because she had to find herself and to find out what really matters to her.

 

We understand why Tom and Mary had 12 scenes in the episodes 4,5,6 and 7 and Henry and Mary only had 5 (three of them in the last episode). We understand why Tom is so invested in the Henry relationship and we understand why Violet says he is "the most sensible of them" while saying about Talbot "Mary needs more than a handsome face and a hand on a gear stick". And we understand why every scene with Henry is immediately followed by one with Tom and always showing that Tom and Mary are closer to each other and have a more intimate relationship. 

 

It all makes sense.

 

But when it will end with Mary/Talbot and with Tom/editor it doesn't make any sense at all. Except "he wanted to have a nice ending for his leading Lady and he needed Tom to make the audience like Talbot". Season 4 and 5 then seem as a complete waste of time and with no storyarc at all.

 

What will it be?

Edited November 4, 2015 by Andorra

[MissLucas]

If JF sinks Brary we'll end up with something similar (yet on a smaller scale) to what happened with HIMYM. There will be some outrage and then people will just edit their own ending. If JF (or TPTB at ITV) followed that show and what happened afterwards an 'alternate (Brary) ending' would be at hand for the DVD-set - but I doubt it.

[ZoloftBlob]

Well, an alternate ending would be acknowledging that not every word JF wrote was a precious gift so... :)

[MissLucas]

He! Too true! Sadly I do get the occasional HIMYM vibe here. Weird pacing, B- and C-plots that use way too much time and a deeply confused fandom.

[Eolivet]

If JF sinks Brary we'll end up with something similar (yet on a smaller scale) to what happened with HIMYM.

 

I admittedly don't like the relationship, but to me, it's an entirely different situation. Mary and Tom have had a warm and friendly relationship through three seasons. The analogy doesn't work if they're Barney and Robin (whose actual onscreen love story and marriage we saw), so I assume they'd be Ted and Tracy -- except you'd have Henry as Robin, only with Tracy-like recency, with Mary as Ted, and Tom as Tracy, only with Robin-like established character development.

 

But I hate the HIMYM finale with the fire of a thousand burning suns, so I get touchy when it's invoked for other things. Throwing eight years of character development down the drain because one of the creators wanted to be Ted's self-insert and keep an ending from 2006 is an egocentric writing fail so cataclysmic that will never be duplicated, not even by Julian Fellowes.

 

But anyway...

 

The fact that Fellowes has had Mary and Tom have used the words "brother" (or "like a brother") and "sister" to describe each other in dialogue is one of the main indications I cannot see this working. If they were meant to get together, everyone knows the rom-com version of that is "You're my best friend." But I don't see how you get from "you're like my brother" to marriage. Incest (or allusions to incest) is icky.

[MissLucas]

I did not mean similar in structure (except for the weird pacing) but similarly with showrunners not being on the same page as the audience or vice-versa and pushing through a vision for their characters that does not line up with what people (or at least a substantial part of the audience) expect to see in the end.

 

I can see why the continuous use of 'brother' and 'sister' can be read as an indication that this is not where the relationship is going. But it can also be constructed as two people in denial about their feelings and enforcing said denial by using those specific terms.

[Andorra]

It must be a language thing or a cultural thing. I know here in Germany no one considers his brother or sister in law an actual sibling. That's why I always find the "incest" argument so weird. 

[shipperx]

Here is where I get wary: I've seen this phenomenon before in other fandoms. Fans with a lot of time to think and analyze decide that the telegraphed ending is to too rote and too obvious, that surely there will be a 'twist', that what was said in screen was really misdirection, etc.

I love fandom and analyzing stuff. But in my experience more often than not the writers of shows aren't misdirecting by being 'too obvious'. They're telling you what they intend to do.

Edited November 4, 2015 by shipperx

[sark1624]

I dont buy a marriage betwen Mary and Tom, i think that the yelling scene is Tom with Mary. In the press said somewhere that Mary is going to be in a dark place. The dark place of Mary is going to be when she is going to be isolated of the rest of the family about the Marigold bussines, and also i think that is her that she tells Bertie and ruins Edith´s relation with him.

 

If Tom is the persons that trust that secret to Mary he is going to be very angry with her, also angry because she is having troubles with Talbot. IMO the last one is stupid but also Tom said that "he wants the best for everyone" and maybe he fells that Talbot is good for Mary. For that reason i think that is him that reprimends Mary´s last behaviour regarding Edith and Talbot. 

 

In this moment Mary is going to be very lonely and is going to ask some help to Talbot, and in that moment they are going to come back and in the end they are going to be married. This is the part about forgiving herself and move forward. 

 

The E8 is going to be about Mary and Thomas in a rock bottom situation, Mary is going to reach to Talbot and Thomas to Baxter and Andy. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Sark - i know the phenemona of which you speak, and I agree - there may be no twist at all.

 

If thats the case though... then the Mary/Henry pairing has been done pretty horridly and I'm not sure two episodes can get it out of the tailspin.

[Nellie]

It must be a language thing or a cultural thing. I know here in Germany no one considers his brother or sister in law an actual sibling. That's why I always find the "incest" argument so weird.

I also don't understand the incest comments either and I'm from America. To me, if Tom and Mary end up together, it allows for both of them to be with someone who knew and LOVED the other's deceased spouse as well. To me, there would be great comfort in being with someone who allowed me to continue to love and cherish memories of a spouse that had died, because they love and cherish memories of their own of that person. I'll also say, even if JF has no desire of making Mary/Tom endgame... I don't see their relationship as sibling like at all (especially that scene after the break up call.). To me, it appears as more of a best friend relationship.

[sark1624]

I also think that the character of Herny Talbot is badly writed, also Mary in the last two seasons if you ask me. I liked Mary in the 1, 2, half of the 3 season but after that she become  more immature, the line of suitors was stupid also. And i think that Fellowes tried with a handsome, known actor resolve the problem, but didnt work.

 

When the CS of 2014 was aired all the media was impressed with Talbot and the good chemistry that have with Mary. I think that the first enconunter with witty talk could have been enough but they continued doing that and in the end of the show we didnt know nothing about him. In the other hand nobody noticed Bertie and Edith but they decided that he would be the underdog and in the few scenes we know that is humble, that he knows that Robert also thinks that him is not enough for his daughter, he spoke about his cousin, his interests. Talbot like the dashing/handsome/macho alfa we dont know nothing about him apart he likes cars. 

[Nellie]

Sark - i know the phenemona of which you speak, and I agree - there may be no twist at all.

 

If thats the case though... then the Mary/Henry pairing has been done pretty horridly and I'm not sure two episodes can get it out of the tailspin.

Right... I'm not so oblivious that I don't see that it very well may end up with Mary/Talbot. In fact, that's probably what will happen. Most often, everything is exactly as we see it and there is no hidden story.

My issue is that if it is a Mary/Talbot ending then they have written the most unbelievable, half assed love story. They should not have inserted Tom into literally every aspect of the relationship and given him his own storyline which would have allowed us the ability to warm up to Talbot. I was never a "Brary" shipper until this season. I have always enjoyed their scenes together, especially season 4 and 5 but I never have allowed myself to go there because the AL and MD were so adamant that it wouldn't happen. When Tom came back this season and the writers decided to all but surgically attach them together throughout this series... It turned me into a full fledged, card carrying Brary shipper.

[Eolivet]

I also don't understand the incest comments either and I'm from America.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that a brother/sister relationship is the only way Mary and Tom can be viewed. I'm saying the fact that they've said the words "brother" and "sister" to each other, about each other, makes me wary. If Mary and Tom were presented as is, one could read their relationship in many different ways. But the fact that they're saying to each other "you're like my brother"/"you're my sister"...if romance were to follow after that, I feel like that'd be icky.

 

shipperx, I can't agree with you enough. Especially with Julian Fellowes -- who telegraphs romance (and all shocking events) in big, neon letters. I submit the last truly shocking thing he ever wrote that wasn't foreshadowed to within an inch of its life was Cora's miscarriage from a bar of soap in season 1. I follow Occam's Razor for all his plots now.

[Brn2bwild]

It must be a language thing or a cultural thing. I know here in Germany no one considers his brother or sister in law an actual sibling. That's why I always find the "incest" argument so weird.

For a long time in Britain, it was illegal for a widower to marry his wife's sister. I don't know when it was repealed, but probably not long before 1925.

[Andorra]

For a long time in Britain, it was illegal for a widower to marry his wife's sister. I don't know when it was repealed, but probably not long before 1925.

 

It was changed in 1907.

[hafo]

All kinds of shipping is going to happen no matter what a writer does. But it's also true that many writers simply don't have the skill to convey their intention properly to the audience. Or worse, they engage in fan service. I can think of so many examples of ship-spawning relationships that the writers swear aren't meant to be perceived as romantic and yet consistently rely on romantic tropes to show closeness. I'd love to think Fellowes' writing is subtle enough to merit the speculation being offered to justify his narrative choices but like Eolivet, I think we're headed towards a predictable ending.

[Nellie]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that a brother/sister relationship is the only way Mary and Tom can be viewed. I'm saying the fact that they've said the words "brother" and "sister" to each other, about each other, makes me wary. If Mary and Tom were presented as is, one could read their relationship in many different ways. But the fact that they're saying to each other "you're like my brother"/"you're my sister"...if romance were to follow after that, I feel like that'd be icky.

Oh no... I wasn't saying that regarding your comment because it's true, they have thrown the words "brother and sister" around. I was referencing comments that I have seen before in articles or even other threads where some have said that Mary and Tom together would be incestual.

[Andorra]

I agree, that Fellows is probably heading for the predictable ending. But I also think that, if he does,  it will again be proof of his terrible writing.

[hafo]

We've never seen Tom and Mary dance together, right? Imagine Mary sulking in the corner at Edith's grand wedding to a marquess. Tom crosses the dance floor...

 

"Maybe there won't be marriage. Maybe there won't be sex. But by God, there'll be dancing."

 

I could be satisfied with that ending.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, they have referred to each other brother and sister also -- significantly -- they live in the same house and such close proximity such "intimacy" is often a sexual attraction buzz-kill ... of course that doesn't apply to Downton where no one ever talks about such things or anything. 

in "foreign cultures" a widow was often provided for by her husband's brother and was often taken as a second wife ... the ban may have been a left-over of missionary influence of "things god-less foreigners do" 

[MissLucas]

The incest argument - and yes, I've seen a Tom and Mary relationship being called icky because it would be incest - is really weird considering that Mary and Matthew were actually (very distant) cousins. AFAIK many European countries abolished laws banning marriage between in-laws before the UK. I blame Henry VIII.

[ZoloftBlob]

I think when people say its incestual is in part because Mary and Sybil are sisters, Matthew and Tom were friends, Mary and Matthew were married, Tom and Sybil were married, and they all lived in the same house for a period of time before Sybil and Matthew died, and Tom and Mary continue to live in the same house, with her parents and sister, and their kids sharing a bedroom as they are raised together. While it's not real brother sister sex, Tom and Mary are living as brother and sister, and coupled with the dead spouses they are both linked to, it does seem at face value an odd match.

 

And then there's the fact that Tom is so clearly smitten with Henry....

 

eta - and yes, Mary and Matthew were cousins to where my mother always remarked on how white trash it was

Edited November 4, 2015 by ZoloftBlob

[Bean421]

 

But I hate the HIMYM finale with the fire of a thousand burning suns, so I get touchy when it's invoked for other things. Throwing eight years of character development down the drain because one of the creators wanted to be Ted's self-insert and keep an ending from 2006 is an egocentric writing fail so cataclysmic that will never be duplicated, not even by Julian Fellowes.

 

But anyway...

 

This can't be liked or applauded enough...As you were.

[Avaleigh]

I never watched HIMYM but consistently see that and Dexter referred to as the worst finales of all time. I have to read about what happened there one day. 

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that a brother/sister relationship is the only way Mary and Tom can be viewed. I'm saying the fact that they've said the words "brother" and "sister" to each other, about each other, makes me wary. If Mary and Tom were presented as is, one could read their relationship in many different ways. But the fact that they're saying to each other "you're like my brother"/"you're my sister"...if romance were to follow after that, I feel like that'd be icky.

This is what made me try to talk myself out of hoping that Brary will come true because I feel like I'm bound to be disappointed if I start thinking it's going to happen. Each episode I've been waiting for that moment just that hint of sexual tension but everything is being played ambiguously. I was sure that Tom and Mary would have a moment after Robert's ulcer scare but it was perfectly chaste. There have been at least five opportunities for *something* to happen where both characters suddenly realize that there could be something there but JF has so far passed up these moments. 

 

The lines about them thinking of each other as brother and sister sound very deliberate and I can't think why he'd want to put that out there if Tom/Mary are the end game. At some point he should throw the fans a bone if he is indeed going to go in that direction. 

 

If nothing else I'd like another character to wise up to how well suited they could be. Maybe Anna could notice something or even Cora or Robert. I actually think that they'd be fine with it. I think the main people who would be irritated would be Carson and Edith. Maybe Mrs. Hughes wouldn't be thrilled but I feel like most everyone would be on board. I know Rose would be. 

[SusanSunflower]

even some picking lint of the other's lapel or adjusting a stray lock of hair or a milk-moustache can signal "caring" -- because of a heightened sense of caring about the other's presentability and the intimacy of casually touching ... see also gazing at the doorway after someone has left the room... or watching their departure from an upstairs window ... I'm hearing nothing of the kind ... see also concern that the other got enough to eat, had a headache, is coming down with a cold or had a nasty delayed journey... see also concern about the other's child ... IOW, there are many many ways to say "I care" 

[MissLucas]

The HIMYM finale has gone rightly down in tv-history as one of the worst last episodes ever. Not even Mary waking up in bed and finding Matthew in the bathroom taking a shower... ahem... a bath in the last scene ever of DA would make feel as angry as the HIMYM finale did.

[Avaleigh]

even some picking lint of the other's lapel or adjusting a stray lock of hair or a milk-moustache can signal "caring" -- because of a heightened sense of caring about the other's presentability and the intimacy of casually touching ... see also gazing at the doorway after someone has left the room... or watching their departure from an upstairs window ... I'm hearing nothing of the kind ... see also concern that the other got enough to eat, had a headache, is coming down with a cold or had a nasty delayed journey... see also concern about the other's child ... IOW, there are many many ways to say "I care" 

I agree that it would be nice to see something like this. 

 

They're definitely concerned about the other's well being and they always seem to seek each other out in the drawing room and the library. They also seem to get each other and we've seen them sharing laughs and smiles. 

 

Still, it would be nice to see some more of this sort of casual intimacy. I've felt it before though in moments like when Mary sees that Tom is wearing a black tie for dinner and she warns him that Violet is coming. He tells her that he'll change but IIRC she tells him that it's fine and makes him feel comfortable again. That was a small moment and a minor example but to me it showed the familiarity that they have and how both are willing to give a little as far as compromising. 

 

For me, I would have liked one of their conversations while they're walking along the estate to be a chance to make something happen. Like a Freudian slip from one of them or maybe they're in London and someone mistakenly thinks they're a couple. Something to put the idea out there. 

 

If Tom and Mary happens in retrospect I would have liked it if they could have had the pig scene that she and Blake had only for it to happen during the fifth season instead of the fourth. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Not even Mary waking up in bed and finding Matthew in the bathroom taking a shower... ahem... a bath in the last scene ever of DA

 

Is it wrong that now that they're both off the show, that I would love to see SNL or some other comedy show totally parody DA with this exact moment?

[SusanSunflower]

Their realization of THEIR TRUE FEELINGS could so easily be nudged if some stranger assumed they were a married  couple .... That said, I think if they wanted Tom as a romantic partner for Mary, he'd have arrived home in fighting-shape, not pudgy. Before he left for America, I complained they'd made him into Robert's mini-me ... and many women are attracted to father figures ... iow, this could work ... but I just don't see the plump-school-boy look stirring anything in Mary except perhaps an impulse to make sure he gets enough to eat and a second piece of pie with dessert. 

[Andorra]

I agree that it is unlikely at this point that Brary is going to happen, because I also think that there had to be at least SOME sign of attraction by now. I also think that Julian Fellows might be very careful that that doesn't happen, therefore the brother/sister references and for example the zero reaction of Tom when Mary showed off her green dress at the restaurant in London.

 

But the weird thing is: Why is he pushing the relationship between them so hard if he doesn't want them to be endgame? It is so ambiguous. On one side we have Tom and Mary acting perfectly married all the time.There's a scene with Henry and immediately there's a scene with Tom and usually the scene with Tom is more intimate. What is this? Why is Julian Fellows doing this?

 

I've read somewhere that he likes to "play with the expectations" of the viewers and "twist them around". Well he certainly does neither when he pairs Mary with Henry. In the CS of season 5 it seemed crystal clear that he was going to be the next Mr. Mary. And if he now will be the next Mr. Mary there's no twist at all. 

 

BUT he played with our expectations of course. I never expected Tom and Mary to end up together and I would have laughed about the idea, but this season has completely reversed my opinion about it. And now it looks JF was just fooling us, which is not a nice feeling when it comes to your favourite character. Especially when he is the one who's storyline got sacrificed for this cruel joke on my behalf. 

 

I will survive it and not end in desperation, but it will leave a bitter taste and this is sad. It would have been a nicer season for me, if he had just cut all the Brary stuff and let Mary have her romance with Talbot alone. And then he might have had time to build a real relationship for Tom and maybe something interesting for him to do outside Downton Abbey. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Maybe Mary is a feeder? Maybe she's into pudge... Matthew had been getting a lil plump towards the end... Mary likes a well fed man...Another piece of the Brary puzzle?

[hafo]

Poor Henry Talbot. So tall and lean. He never stood a chance.

Edited November 4, 2015 by hafo

[SusanSunflower]

Branson's weight has fluctuated before ... actually most of the male characters got significantly more stout as they got older ... yes, Matthew got the pudge as well. As did Violet ... only to get trim again later ... Coyle got very pudgy which made him look older and diminished his (long-standing) twinkle eyed sex appeal (which goes back decades). I remember it well ... it was either season 2 or 3 when our fiery Irish man began to look very domesticated ... Robert also got heavy and then got trimmer ... Carson was looking half embalmed last episode I saw last year. Violet got very very heavy and creaky two seasons ago (all padding) and then someone decided the character wasn't heading for the glue factory (Maggie Smith in Best Exotic Marigold Hotel was a shock) ... 

Still -- if they wanted Branson as a romantic figure ... I'm positive Allen Leech would have been happy, thrilled to work out and lose weight in preparation for whatever is next. 

[Andorra]

The weird thing is that Allen Leech doesn't look half as "pudgy" in BTS pictures than he does on Downton. He is a bit fuller than he was 5 years ago, but really not like what we see this season on the show? I think they add padding to age him up a bit.

[SusanSunflower]

It might well be padding ... but it's odd. I wondered the same thing in past seasons as Carson became, if not a blimp, a rigid heavy old man -- while the actor playing him was often pictured trim and fit in shorts, an avid bike racer, irrc.  

What I wonder is WHOSE decision was it to age these characters/actors?  It's the last season -- they will be going off to play other roles ... Carmichael has really been allowed to strut her stuff -- finally ... and it would be wonderful for Leech to have him remembered as trim and sexy ... it would be very good for Dockery to have some knock-down dramatic scenes (to show the world what she's capable of) ... See also the actor playing Carson -- unless he really wants to be a poor-man's Jim Broadbent or play butlers for the rest of his life....  Brendan Coyle's Bates is gonna be a daddy which helps make him seem at least potentially "potent" ... 

I was certain Violet was a goner two (or 3) seasons ago when she ballooned and had trouble moving about ... then -- voila -- all gone!!

In short, if it's Fellowes deciding to make Leech look like that ... he's not doing Leech any favors. 

 

eta: When I was a kid, as I recall, actors in a final season were often given episodes centered around their character as a parting gift .... so that they could strut their stuff and impress the audience who was accustomed to only seeing a very limited part of their range. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Eolivet]

I've read somewhere that he likes to "play with the expectations" of the viewers and "twist them around". Well he certainly does neither when he pairs Mary with Henry.

 

I'm afraid that Mr. Fellowes fancies himself as more clever than he actually is if he thinks that's what he's doing. His tropes are classic (to be generous) and predictable (to be less generous).

 

So, Mary and Henry will be shocking, because: He's a race car driver! He's not an aristrocrat! They broke up! They're from totally different worlds! He would never fit in at Downton! And then...surprise, they end up together anyway. Truly shocking...to someone who has never seen any romantic fiction.

 

(And I actually really like Fellowes, but I mean...call a romantic cliche a romantic cliche. He's allergic to surprise twists, surprise couplings, surprise anything. I think it's partly what's made Downton so popular, and why the show irritates all the snobby Hollywood critics who think ~deep and ~dark is commensurate with quality. It's just comfortable, predictable television with outstanding acting. And to me, there's nothing wrong with that.)

[MissLucas]

Oh, Fellows has managed to surprise with unexpected twists and to defy expectations from time to time - it's just not the kind of twists people find exhilarating.  For example Mr Green not being killed by Baxter but by someone we've never seen. Or when Blake was kicked from the pig sty directly into the friends zone. Or when Bates did not have a silent fit of murderous rage when he found the gadget that dares not speak its name.