S03.E11: ...And The Beast From The Sea

[Anela]

This has honestly been a thing since season one. The characters magically teleport up and down the Eastern Seaboard and even out to Minnesota (where I am pretty positive the FBI has a field office) like they're the only law enforcement characters in existence.

 

It got pretty ridiculous for Hannibal himself (The person tree and its planting in a parking lot) but also for the Killers of the Week (totem pole guy, Giant Eye guy); they'd magically conjure up these Murder Etsy Projects without anybody noticing the piles and piles of abandoned cars or dug up graves or whatever.

 

Haha! Murder Etsy Projects. I love it. 

 

i think it's one of the things Will picked up from Hannibal - making homemade gourmet food from scratch.  I find it amusing Hannibal cooks for his friends (and a few enemies) and Will cooks for his dogs. 

I used to feed mine homemade raw food, even though I'd sometimes panic, wondering if I was screwing up in any way. My one remaining dog now gets cooked food, canned, and occasionally kibble (we feed it to the cats, even though I don't like it, and want to get them canned food). I smiled when she said Will makes their food. I'm surprised the vet wasn't more concerned about that, than the canned food, since not all vets are fans of homemade. 

[Crossbow]

Regarding previous discussion of why Dolarhyde went to Hong Kong for his tattoo and teeth:

 

So I'm at that part of the book. In the army he was stationed in Seoul and went to Hong Kong on his leaves. It says, "Hong Kong and Kowloon could satisfy any appetite in 1959." Sounds to me like he probably started killing there. He's based in St. Louis, which didn't really have a Chinatown in 1979, since they razed the old one in 1966 and a new one didn't get a good foothold until 1986 - so he had to travel to have it done in any case. Presumably he chose Hong Kong because he was familiar with it. Oh, and yes it cost him a buttload of money (but not as much as you imagine since he actually only had the tail done, not the whole thing - but that wouldn't impress anyone in 2015) and he was in Hong Kong 3 months, so no, it wasn't done all at once. :D

[Captanne]

Brilliant sleuthing, Crossbow!

 

I just got my copy of Red Dragon (I can't imagine in 30 years of military PCS's and TDY's, and two wars, where my original copy might have drifted off to!)  (I kid.)

 

I haven't started it yet, so -- Well done, you!!  Thanks for the Dolarhyde research!

 

I really need to break down and watch the Red Dragon remake of Manhunter.

 

ETA:  Does it mention Will Graham taking long solo sloop trips across the Atlantic Ocean and sailing up inland rivers to reach cities that have perfectly good international airports?  Again, I kid.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

ETA:  Does it mention Will Graham taking long solo sloop trips across the Atlantic Ocean and sailing up inland rivers to reach cities that have perfectly good international airports?  Again, I kid.

 

Nah, Hannibal goes to Italy in the third book, and Will is only in the first book. There's no magical transport in the books, since in a book you can just tell the reader how much time has passed.

 

Actually there's no mention of Will fishing or sailing so far. I think that's all TV Will.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Crossbow

[John Potts]

Well I thought we had the best depiction of Molly in any version: pissed at Will for bringing the monster into their lives while acknowledging that it's partly her fault and competent in escaping Dolarhyde's attack without suddenly developing ninja skills.

 

Are vets really that snooty in America? She seemed to imply that anyone who didn't spend an hour preparing their pets gourmet meals was neglecting them. Particularly when the dog's probably been deliberately poisoned.

 

Really surprised Will didn't deck somebody (Jack or Alanna presumably, since Hannibal is behind a barrier) when he realised they'd allowed Hannibal to send The Red Dragon after his family.

[Crossbow]

Well I thought we had the best depiction of Molly in any version: pissed at Will for bringing the monster into their lives while acknowledging that it's partly her fault and competent in escaping Dolarhyde's attack without suddenly developing ninja skills.

 

Are vets really that snooty in America? She seemed to imply that anyone who didn't spend an hour preparing their pets gourmet meals was neglecting them. Particularly when the dog's probably been deliberately poisoned.

 

Really surprised Will didn't deck somebody (Jack or Alanna presumably, since Hannibal is behind a barrier) when he realised they'd allowed Hannibal to send The Red Dragon after his family.

 

- She developed the ability to run soundlessly, but otherwise, yeah, that was good.

 

- The vet was asking about diet changes. If you're feeding them home made and then suddenly switch to canned one day, it could be bad. I don't think she was judging Molly for not making homemade but for the abrupt change.

 

- I don't know why Will hasn't decked either of them at any number of points yet. That boy needs to drop-kick Jack Crawford right out of his life for good.

[jeansheridan]

Nah, Hannibal goes to Italy in the third book, and Will is only in the first book. There's no magical transport in the books, since in a book you can just tell the reader how much time has passed.

 

Actually there's no mention of Will fishing or sailing so far. I think that's all TV Will.

In Red Dragon he fixes boat engines, so I think the implication is he knows how to sail a ship.  Or drive a ship of some sort.  They work in a fish and bait shop together (Molly--it's how they meet).

 

Harrison isn't big on descriptions beyond the usual.  Hannibal is small, sleek, maroon eyes, and one hand has six fingers.  But then Hopkins took the role and most of that went away since he's none of those things.  Will is just described as very ordinary in the books and suntanned from Florida and his job.  And I think he has bright blue eyes.  And that's it.  He tells Molly he will be at the back of the pack when it comes time to catch the killer and she contradicts him and tells him would never so we know he's brave. 

 

The overall impression is an ordinary, but scrappy man.  Which is why I do think Norton was ideal casting.  Darcy is very pretty.  I never realized how pretty until this show  but he does his best to downplay it.  He's not ridiculously handsome like Henry Cavil or Idris Elba where it just smacks you in the face.

Edited August 20, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Captanne]

Dancy has a certain vulnerability to him that he can't seem to hide.  I have read that David Tenant had a shot at playing Will Graham.  That might have been interesting, too.

[Crossbow]

In Red Dragon he fixes boat engines, so I think the implication is he knows how to sail a ship.  Or drive a ship of some sort.  They work in a fish and bait shop together (Molly--it's how they meet).

 

Harrison isn't big on descriptions beyond the usual.  Hannibal is small, sleek, maroon eyes, and one hand has six fingers.  But then Hopkins took the role and most of that went away since he's none of those things.  Will is just described as very ordinary in the books and suntanned from Florida and his job.  And I think he has bright blue eyes.  And that's it.  He tells Molly he will be at the back of the pack when it comes time to catch the killer and she contradicts him and tells him would never so we know he's brave. 

 

The overall impression is an ordinary, but scrappy man.  Which is why I do think Norton was ideal casting.  Darcy is very pretty.  I never realized how pretty until this show  but he does his best to downplay it.  He's not ridiculously handsome like Henry Cavil or Idris Elba where it just smacks you in the face.

 

Yes, he has bright blue eyes. "Not handsome but determined-looking," as Dolarhyde puts it. Well, until they're done with him when he has "a face that's hard to look at."

 

Oh, and I think we can assume he fishes if he works in a bait shop, but he definitely can't have fly-fishing as a hobby since there aren't rivers where he lives. We can't assume he sails because that is a completely different skill set from driving a motor boat.

 

Hannibal would be impossible to cast as he's described, since maroon eyes don't really exist except in albinos, and they're not gonna find an actor with the left middle finger duplicated. They also disregard his age - he's 41, but no one that young has ever played him. But there are many, many comments about him being graceful and holding himself like a dancer, so I think Mads was perfect.

Dancy has a certain vulnerability to him that he can't seem to hide.  I have read that David Tenant had a shot at playing Will Graham.  That might have been interesting, too.

 

Tennant was up for the role of Hannibal Lecter. I'm glad it went to Mads! Tennant is over the top.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Crossbow

[Captanne]

Oh, for Hannibal?  No, I'm glad he didn't get it.

[Crossbow]

Yup.

http://metro.co.uk/2014/09/25/hannibal-creator-bryan-fuller-says-hed-love-to-cast-david-tennant-on-the-show-4880186/

[Captanne]

Oh, no.  He's a professional and really talented but you know what would have been interesting?  Giving him the role of Bedelia DuMaurier.  Making Will female would be boring because, really, Clarice Starling already played around with that idea.  If we have to have a  Bedelia character, maybe making her male would have worked better.

 

Freddie Loundes worked out all right -- after they stopped making her quite so cartoonish in series one she got better.  (In series three she's toned down, I think.)

 

I'm just spitballing.

 

Tenant is all kinds of wrong for Hannibal, in my world.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

I'm not a great fan of Tennant. His "Hamlet" was really good, but generally I think he overacts. Chris Eccleston is my Doctor.

[Captanne]

I am old -- my Doctor is Four (Tom Baker.)  I thought Tenant was fine but I didn't actually like his Doctor's plot line, for the most part.  I really didn't like the way he treated Jack Harkness (John Barrowman.)

 

Nine is by FAR the best modern Doctor.  (Eccleston.)  Hands down.  Brilliant.  

 

I haven't seen Tenant's "Hamlet", yet, but we have it here at the house.

 

Tenant is too slight to be Fuller's version of Hannibal.  Mads Mikkelsen is perfect with his large (for a dancer) physique.  He's a big, powerful guy who looks like he's got that dancer's strength -- just the type to hurl Laurence Fishburne around a kitchen and little Hugh Dancy against a wall.  (Oh, wait, that was Armitage who threw Dancy against the elevator wall, wasn't it.  Well, I"m sure Mikkelsen has had his share of opportunities to toss Dancy around.)

Edited August 20, 2015 by Captanne

[Anela]

I've forgotten the name of the Doctor from my childhood. There was more than one, and Tristan from All Creatures Great and Small, was one of them. Peter Davison! 

I have a cat named George. One of the former ferals, brought to me by their mum, two years ago this week. 

[Snookums]

Tenant's Hamlet is well worth it, but Sir Patrick Stewart plays Claudius and just steals the show. He's fucking AMAZING. I'd like to see him as Jack Crawford someday.

[Captanne]

"Tristan" played Five.  Peter Davison -- whose actress daughter is married to David Tenant.  They met on the set of "The Doctor's Daughter" in which she played the daughter and just had their own daughter!!

 

Enough Tangential to Way-Off Topic from me.  :-)  

[Crossbow]

Tenant's Hamlet is well worth it, but Sir Patrick Stewart plays Claudius and just steals the show. He's fucking AMAZING. I'd like to see him as Jack Crawford someday.

 

Agreed! That version of "Hamlet" was about this guy Claudius whose nephew is causing trouble for him. He also played Claudius in the 1980 version and he was good in that but not as good as in the 2009.

I am old -- my Doctor is Four (Tom Baker.)  I thought Tenant was fine but I didn't actually like his Doctor's plot line, for the most part.  I really didn't like the way he treated Jack Harkness (John Barrowman.)

 

Nine is by FAR the best modern Doctor.  (Eccleston.)  Hands down.  Brilliant.  

 

I haven't seen Tenant's "Hamlet", yet, but we have it here at the house.

 

Tenant is too slight to be Fuller's version of Hannibal.  Mads Mikkelsen is perfect with his large (for a dancer) physique.  He's a big, powerful guy who looks like he's got that dancer's strength -- just the type to hurl Laurence Fishburne around a kitchen and little Hugh Dancy against a wall.  (Oh, wait, that was Armitage who threw Dancy against the elevator wall, wasn't it.  Well, I"m sure Mikkelsen has had his share of opportunities to toss Dancy around.)

 

Baker really defined the role because he played it so long. I'm actually old enough to remember except I don't because that show never aired where I lived while I was growing up.

 

Let's be honest, throwing Hugh Dancy around isn't that great a physical challenge...

[Bruinsfan]

At least being smaller he's less likely to be injured by the impact? But yeah, I'd be surprised if he weighed 150 lbs., not a huge challenge for fit guys of 6'+ to manhandle. My money would be on Gillian Anderson in the Brides of Hannibal smackdown.

[Crossbow]

"Brides of Hannibal Smackdown" should be its own spinoff.

[Captanne]

I don't know ... Alana looks like she could hold her own in a fair fight.

[Crossbow]

Clarice Starling could take out all three of 'em.

[Snookums]

Love this! A literary WWE!

[takalotti]

During the Red Dragon / Francis brawl, was I the only one giggling and thinking "I'm kicking my ass! Do you mind?"?

So glad to see so many others scoffing at Francis' comments about Will not being attractive.

Dancy has a certain vulnerability to him that he can't seem to hide.

Did you see him in The Jane Austen Book Club? I think it was in some bonus footage or in the commentary where they said they put Dancy in sunglasses for the beach scene near the end because his eyes just naturally gave away too much. Edited August 24, 2015 by takalotti

[Captanne]

BFF is a Jane Austen fanatic.  I'm not so much.  I'll ask her if she saw it!!  

 

I swear I didn't realize how little he was until he was in the scene nude, blood-covered, in the cold and dark behind the Leeds' house.  It's an odd observation because there was no person to compare him to -- but he was small in proportion to the house and surroundings.  

 

The character has been vulnerable since the very beginning of the show and we met him giving a lecture.  He hardly made eye contact.

[paramitch]

I really need to break down and watch the Red Dragon remake of Manhunter.

For me, as much as I love the actors in "Red Dragon," I can't stand it and find the entire film kind of flat and tired-feeling. I also felt it was a mistake to bring Hopkins back for a prequel -- as superb an actor as he is, he unbalanced the entire story for me. I also disliked the RD take on Reba, who in the book (and in "Manhunter") is refreshingly strong, capable, and not shy or tremulous at all.

 

Which is actually what I like about the show's Reba -- I love the colorbind casting, and while I wish Reba and Francis had more palpable chemistry, I love Rutina Wesley and the calm confidence she has. She looked so lovely in the scene when she's on the couch and lying against him, completely unaware of the terrible things he's looking at.

 

In Red Dragon he fixes boat engines, so I think the implication is he knows how to sail a ship.  Or drive a ship of some sort.  They work in a fish and bait shop together (Molly--it's how they meet).

 

Harrison isn't big on descriptions beyond the usual.  Hannibal is small, sleek, maroon eyes, and one hand has six fingers.  But then Hopkins took the role and most of that went away since he's none of those things.  Will is just described as very ordinary in the books and suntanned from Florida and his job.  And I think he has bright blue eyes.  And that's it.  He tells Molly he will be at the back of the pack when it comes time to catch the killer and she contradicts him and tells him would never so we know he's brave. 

 

The overall impression is an ordinary, but scrappy man.  Which is why I do think Norton was ideal casting.  Darcy is very pretty.  I never realized how pretty until this show  but he does his best to downplay it.  He's not ridiculously handsome like Henry Cavil or Idris Elba where it just smacks you in the face.

 

Nice reminder of Hannibal's descriptions in the original books. I still remember reading the scene in SotL where he holds up a hand to Clarice and she notices that he has six fingers.

 

On Will's casting, we're given so little that all of them work for me (I like Norton even if I hate that "Red Dragon" adaptation). The shows decision to cast Dancy means that we have a Will who is almost always suffering in ways that are visible to us. Dancy is just such a delicate actor, and his performance style means that everything shows on his face. I love that and have really enjoyed him in the role. My all-time favorite is still probably William Petersen in "Manhunter," though, simply because that guy looks and feels like a cop to me. But it's also total apples and oranges anyway.

 

Tenant's Hamlet is well worth it, but Sir Patrick Stewart plays Claudius and just steals the show. He's fucking AMAZING. I'd like to see him as Jack Crawford someday.

 

This! Patrick Stewart's Claudius is so freaking amazing that I went around talking about his role in that for weeks. His final scene as Claudius is so absolutely brilliant, and weird, and beautiful, that I've never forgotten it. His choices were so strange and yet so wonderful and believable.

[jeansheridan]

Yikes.  I never made it to Claudius!  I watched the first act and then couldn't push through.  In my defense I had just watched The Broken Crown so I might have been Shakespeared out for a bit.  Tenant didn't feel right to me at all.  Has he played MacBeth yet?  That I could see even if he's very skinny (I think of MacBeth as a brute of a man--all blood and action).  I will rent it again though since you said Stewart is worth the wait.  I hated the black and white stage too.  The whole thing felt off to me.  I think I liked the Mel Gibson version mostly for the staging and set.    I didn't mind the Ethan Hawke version which shocked me because I hate Ethan Hawke too (I'm a hater this week).  But he was a least a young Hamlet.  I want a young Hamlet which is why I'm wary of Cumberbatch. 

 

 

She looked so lovely in the scene when she's on the couch and lying against him, completely unaware of the terrible things he's looking at.

 

That for me was their one true moment of chemistry.  The way she sunk into him, totally relaxed and happy and he let her.  And he does have a very snuggable torso.  Not that he looked especially happy.  But he's not the most joyful of actors.  Even in interviews, smiling looks painful for him.  At ComicCon they made him put on a flower headpiece (all the actors wore them and Dancy seemed especially giggly about it) and he wore it with the same expression he wears staring at the home video.

 

And if there was a smackdown, I've got to say I think Freddie is darn scrappy.  I know she isn't a "bride" (too darn smart, that one), but can't she play?

[Crossbow]

I think even Will could take down Freddie, she's so skinny.

[paramitch]

I forgot to add how beautiful I found a lot of the dialogue in this episode. The PTV recap spotlights the 'duality' subtext really beautifully, and I loved all the show's usual understated poetry (especially the Faust references, which are beyond perfect for this show, of course). 

 

I also found the sequence of Molly's escape with her son extremely tense and well-done. I was on the edge of my seat even though I was pretty sure they'd be safe (but still, this is Fuller, so all bets are off). I did fell terrible for the guy who stopped for them. 

Yikes.  I never made it to Claudius!  I watched the first act and then couldn't push through.  In my defense I had just watched The Broken Crown so I might have been Shakespeared out for a bit.  Tenant didn't feel right to me at all.  Has he played MacBeth yet?  That I could see even if he's very skinny (I think of MacBeth as a brute of a man--all blood and action).  I will rent it again though since you said Stewart is worth the wait.  I hated the black and white stage too.  The whole thing felt off to me.  I think I liked the Mel Gibson version mostly for the staging and set.    I didn't mind the Ethan Hawke version which shocked me because I hate Ethan Hawke too (I'm a hater this week).  But he was a least a young Hamlet.  I want a young Hamlet which is why I'm wary of Cumberbatch. 

 

 

That for me was their one true moment of chemistry.  The way she sunk into him, totally relaxed and happy and he let her.  And he does have a very snuggable torso.  Not that he looked especially happy.  But he's not the most joyful of actors.  Even in interviews, smiling looks painful for him.  At ComicCon they made him put on a flower headpiece (all the actors wore them and Dancy seemed especially giggly about it) and he wore it with the same expression he wears staring at the home video.

 

And if there was a smackdown, I've got to say I think Freddie is darn scrappy.  I know she isn't a "bride" (too darn smart, that one), but can't she play?

 

Jeansheridan, please do try to get through that "Hamlet" just for Stewart! I promise you that the last 25 minutes are worth it, even if it isn't your cup of tea overall (I do think Tennant is a surprisingly remote Hamlet who only gets approachable in Act II). But yeah, Stewart, man. I have just... I've never seen Claudius interpreted the way Stewart does and I found it brilliant, moving and exhilarating. So unexpected.

 

FWIW, I love many of the other Hamlets you mention as well -- I love Gibson's turn in Zefferelli's version (I think it's some of the best work he has ever done and he's quite good, although Glenn Close was just transplendent), and am with you on liking that Ethan Hawke version (I thought it was a beautiful modern interpretation, and I loved Julia Stiles as Ophelia, and Maclachlan as Claudius).

 

I also agree on the chemistry between Reba and Francis in that final scene on the couch. Reba's body language is wonderful -- she sinks in against him, then drapes her arm over his inner thigh very casually, and runs her hand down his leg in this kind of brief, familiar way. It's something only a lover would do.

 

I'm trying to imagine the entire cast wearing crowns of flowers and just failing totally. Antlers? Yeah, I could see it. But I love the idea of the flowers. You just know Mads would have worn them like the crown jewels, with total aplomb.

[MisterGlass]

Oh, no need to imagine them in flower crowns - there's video.  Though Mads isn't present, which is too bad :-)

[Crossbow]

Ah, I'm glad I'm not the only person on the planet who liked the Mel Gibson Hamlet. Glenn Close knocked it out of the park.