Rumplestiltskin: Apparently He's Part of Every Fairy Tale Ever

[profdanglais]

The American network television system means that popular shows become victims of their own success. They get dragged on forever, with the only goal being to hold on to what made them popular in the first place. This results in llittle progress for character or plot arcs, and retcons/inconsistencies piling up. They stagnate. One of the things I like about living in the UK is the shorter, more focused television seasons. It can be frustrating when so much time passes between seasons (looking at you, Sherlock!) but overall I think it results in tighter storytelling. 

 

As far as Rumple goes, I completely agree that Belle holds his character back and should have been a one-off. Any redemption for Rumple was always going to be a struggle because he chose to go dark and he continues to choose it. Redemptions work better when the character spirals into darkness due to a combination of circumstance and his/her own personal failings, then slowly works to address the failings and deal with the circumstances until they become the best version of themselves. Rumple thinks that the darkness makes him the best version of himself, so what incentive does he have for redemption? Finding Bae might have been enough if that had been handled well, but Belle is never going to be enough. Honestly, I don't see Rumple redeeming, and that's fine. It could be great. Rumple is always best as a villain. How much better would it have been if he'd been straight up evil throughout the series instead of weaving in and out of half-assed "redemption"? 

[Curio]

How much better would it have been if he'd been straight up evil throughout the series instead of weaving in and out of half-assed "redemption"? 

 

That's why I'm advocating for him to go straight up evil now that Belle is under the sleeping curse. He'd be a lot more fun and entertaining and wouldn't have to worry about Belle's conscience getting in his way. There could potentially be a few more years left of this show, so they might as well hit the reset button on his character now rather than later.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Curio

[tri4335]

One of the biggest missed opportunities in this show was taking Belle from flashbacks. If they left her in flashbacks and made it that Rumple was working towards freeing her from whatever "magical" suspension then they could have had him always trying to live up to that man that Belle wanted but when he failed, she wasn't around to witness it. The series could've ended with him finally freeing her and become the man she wanted.

[Camera One]

Even when Rumple is pretty much a full-out villain (eg. 4A+4B), they insist on giving him soft moments and sad face time.  They think this is writing a complex character.  So they will never make him the "ultimate ultimate ultimate big bad" because we will always be expected to feel for him on some level.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

In the other thread, there was hope that Hook and everyone will find out that Rumple pushed Milah into the river of lost souls.  

 

But I was wondering what the point is anymore.  If these "heroes" can just shrug off Rumple channeling all the Dark One powers back into himself while Hook dies, or scheming to trap Emma in a Hat forever, or letting everyone die in the Shattered Sight Curse or trapped in a book, all during the last year, why would learning about Milah be the straw that breaks their eternal tolerance for such a backstabbing and despicable monster?

[Rumsy4]

I agree Camera One. It's a similar situation as Graham and Regina. It won't make any difference at this point if Emma finds out that Regina killed him. 

[KingOfHearts]

Well no one found out Rumple killed Zelena, so...

[Rumsy4]

In this episode did anything, it made it clear to me that Rumple is definitely getting redeemed. If Cora didn't face lasting consequences for her actions, why would Rumple? And if Zelena was able to forgive her mother, why wouldn't Belle? 

[KingOfHearts]

 

In this episode did anything, it made it clear to me that Rumple is definitely getting redeemed. If Cora didn't face lasting consequences for her actions, why would Rumple? And if Zelena was able to forgive her mother, why wouldn't Belle?

I think it depends on where A&E plan to take him. Is he going to be the final Big Bad of the series, or will he redeem himself at the last second? (Or both?)

Edited April 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I think Rumple will continue to behave like this. Pretend to be quiescent, and then betray someone or the other when their attention is focussed elsewhere. He will most likely sacrifice himself to save his second born at the end of the series, and that will be his Darth Vaderesque redeeming moment. I just don't see A&E leaving Rumple an unredeemed villain at the end of the series.

[Camera One]

The Writers made sure to include another bedside talk where he expressed he *wishes* he could be the man Belle wants him to be, but he *needs* to do this to save their child.  It felt like a sympathetic treatment... though nothing we haven't seen before.

[KingOfHearts]

Rumple is so irrelevant now. His plot occasionally intersects with the main story, but he's mostly just relegated to Rumpbelle angst. It's as if he and Belle were on a different show. Before, he was very relevant because he put his hands in everyone's backstories. He was the puppet master. Now he's just a coward desperate for power in a bad relationship.

Edited April 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Just read the script-tease from a few days ago with the scene in "Sisters".

 

INT. MR. GOLD'S SHOP

 

ON BELLE, eyes closed, looking peaceful... Gold sits, a multitude of emotions on his face.

 

--

 

I love the specific directions... Multitude of emotions indeed.  Can't be any more ambiguous than that.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Just read the script-tease from a few days ago with the scene in "Sisters".

INT. MR. GOLD'S SHOP

ON BELLE, eyes closed, looking peaceful... Gold sits, a multitude of emotions on his face.

--

I love the specific directions... Multitude of emotions indeed. Can't be any more ambiguous than that.

It basically describes half of the Rumpbelle scenes in S4. Belle is asleep and Rumple is pensive.

[Mathius]

On 4/26/2016 at 0:49 AM, KingOfHearts said:

Rumple is so irrelevant now. His plot occasionally intersects with the main story, but he's mostly just relegated to Rumpbelle angst. It's as if he and Belle were on a different show. Before, he was very relevant because he put his hands in everyone's backstories. He was the puppet master. Now he's just a coward desperate for power in a bad relationship.

I agree, S5 really is Rumple at his most worn out.  He was relevant in every prior season, but now he really isn't. 

I really hope they're planning on shelving him at the end of the season as spoilers indicate.

[Rumsy4]

Between Rumple and Belle, they've managed to kill the same people twice over: Milah, Gaston, and Pan. Amazing, really. 

[KingOfHearts]

15 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Between Rumple and Belle, they've managed to kill the same people twice over: Milah, Gaston, and Pan. Amazing, really. 

To quote Clue:
Col. Mustard: "That's what we call overkill."
Prof. Plum: "That's what we call psychotic."

Edited May 4, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Half the time Rumple has scenes with Belle, she is unconscious. But having multiple conversations with a box must have challenged Robbie Carlyle to a whole new level. lol

[Mathius]

I wonder what someone who had no clue as to what was going on in this show tuned in when he was speaking to the box.  They'd think he's just a lunatic who's named his little box "Belle".  XD  

Though this is confirmation at long last that Belle's part could be played by an inanimate object and nothing much would actually change. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Mathius

[Mari]

I had that same thought, Mathius, while I was watching.

[orza]

21 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Half the time Rumple has scenes with Belle, she is unconscious. But having multiple conversations with a box must have challenged Robbie Carlyle to a whole new level. lol

I don't follow. Doing soliloquies with props is a basic acting skill he would have learned at drama school. It was probably not much different from when he was holding forth to a green tennis ball representing the Blue Fairy in The Return.

[Mathius]

True.  I think it'd even be easier, since the box isn't talking back so it's not like he has to hold a full conversation with it.

[orza]

The tennis ball was not talking back, either. In the scene in The Return he was talking to a green ball suspended in the air and the Blue Fairy was added in post-production  Actors do this all the time. Think of every scene of someone talking on the phone. There is no one on the other end.

[Delphi]

Or they have someone standing off the camera reading the tennis balls lines so that after post production the conversation doesn't seem off.

[orza]

I'm just going off what RC said in an interview.

[Mathius]

I've gone back and rewatched Mr. Gold throughout the years, and I cannot help but notice a dramatic change in the way Robert plays him...or rather, voices him.  In Season 1 through 3A, and then again in 4A, he usually spoke in a very clear tone, very suave and semi-Scottish (it's actually much less so than Robert's natural speaking voice).  But in 3B, then again in 4B through currently, he pretty much always speaks much lower and softer, his voice sounding raspier and hissier. Now, I could excuse that in 3B since Gold was being broken and tortured through it, so that was probably Robert keeping in line with how the character would sound in this situation.  But with 4B up to now, it makes no sense other than Robert is just not putting in the effort he used to and is going on auto-pilot acting.  He seems to lost his passion for the character (Gold, that is...he still appears to have it for Imp Rumple), and is just continuing to play him for the paycheck.  Even many of the emotional moments are off nowadays.  When he let Baelfire go through a portal, his acting afterward could make you cry.  When he let Belle-in-a-box go through a portal, his acting was laughter-inducing.  Robert is still a fantastic actor overall, but it looks like even he has a point where he just stops giving a fuck. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Mathius

[Joanh23]

Well his character was so interesting in S1-S3, and now he's just a caricature villain.  One of my favourite things about the flashbacks in S1 was learning that Rumple was literally behind everything - he was the ultimate puppet master, and the fact that he was doing everything to find his son made him sympathetic. And RC played the hell out of Rumple in S1-3, he really was the best actor on the show in the early days.  I love Imp Rumple and I loved how they used him in 5A, but I haven't liked Gold since S4.

One of my favourite things about RC is that in interviews he doesn't try to justify Rumple - he knows he's a villain and he's said several times that he doesn't think Rumple should get a happy ending, so I'm sure RC must find the endless back and forth between Rumple and Belle as annoying as the rest of us!

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think anyone can blame RC if he checked out on the whole Mr. Gold persona, or doesn't feel challenged in the least. I still love the show for some reason, but this is the show where creativity goes to die.

I loved Rumple in seasons 1 through 3. Even in 4A, he was enjoyable still. I liked that he got to interact with different characters. But this season has been painful.

Edited May 19, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

I've noticed Robert's gradual "phoning-in" as well. And I put "phoning-in" in quotations because even when he doesn't give a performance his all, he's still one of the best actors on the show. It's just that at some point, he must have noticed how his character isn't being given much to do, and he seems very intelligent and able to recognize good writing, so I don't blame him for not being totally passionate when he plays Gold. 

[YaddaYadda]

Robert said before that a character like Rumple should be used in small dozes, which the writers didn't really do. I don't think it would have to do with him not having much to do. Quality vs quantity does matter. If you give him tons of stuff to do, but he keeps repeating over and over "when the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky..." It's find it insulting for an actor of his caliber. 

They gave him that baby plot in 5B which made very little sense, and then they were like Hades tears up the contract. So that went nowhere fast. I still don't understand why they wrote in a pregnancy for Belle to begin with, especially since Emilie is no longer pregnant.

Mind blown. Not in a good way.

I thought Robert's best work this season was in episode 5x14. 

[Curio]

I don't understand the point of no one knowing about Milah's death in the Underworld. Wouldn't it create really good drama with Rumple and give Robert something interesting to work with if Hook confronted him about shoving Milah into the River of Lost Souls?

[Mathius]

Quote

and the fact that he was doing everything to find his son made him sympathetic.

I liked that they also flipped that on its head to in the S1 finale....he wasn't doing everything just to find his son, his plan revolved around finding his son AND being able to keep his power, the very reason he lost his son to begin with, showing that he hadn't learned a damn thing.

Quote

I loved Rumple in seasons 1 through 3. Even in 4A, he was enjoyable still. 

As I said, Robert Carlyle was still actually trying during 4A and was enjoying himself, particularly since he had to act opposite Elizabeth Mitchell and Colin O'Donoghue for most of it.  He relished playing a full-on villain in that arc because they gave him good villainous material (like ripping out Hook's heart and gloating to him about it).  They completely backburnered  him in 4B despite him being the supposed Big Bad in favor of the Queens of Darkness, Isaac, and freaking Zelena.  The best he was in that arc was in the finale when he got to play "Light One" Rumple.  And then there's the Gold we have currently, where they refuse to let him go full-on villain and he's just kind of there.  I notice that the rare times he DOES get to do something villainous (turning on Milah, force-choking Gaston, turning on Pan, force-choking Hyde), there's some passion in his acting that isn't there otherwise.  They really need to just cut him loose and let him be evil, like with Imp Rumple.  Robert has fun with that.

Quote

and now he's just a caricature villain.  

Again, that's not so much the problem: it's more like he's a caricature villain who they're still not using as a full-on villain.

They need to cut him off from Belle and any semblance of being "family", and let him be a goddamn Big Bad.

Quote

If you give him tons of stuff to do, but he keeps repeating over and over "when the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky..." It's find it insulting for an actor of his caliber. 

Funny thing is he actually sold that repeated speech better than he did a lot of stuff afterward.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The Dark One with Rumple being all powerful is a writing crutch and I think there are multitudes of other angles they could have pursued, from Rumple struggling to be completely without magic, or Rumple trying to make do with limited magical powers and objects, to Rumple actually having a progressive redemption arc if they're going for Rumbelle.  Do we really need to see someone controlling Rumple with the Dagger yet again? 

Rumple is more interesting when he's trying to do something that he's not powerful enough to do. He was most conniving in S1, when he was manipulating events behind the scenes in Storybrooke. He didn't have magic, but everything was still wrapped around his finger. In flashbacks he was hellbent on getting the Bae, something he couldn't do just by throwing some potions together. He had to get Snowing together and Regina into the darkest place possible. The Hat, the baby contract, and the Olympian Crystal plots are all similar in nature, but the formula is tired. They're not challenging for Rumple because they're all done with over a few episodes. It's repetitious.

He used to have his hands in everyone's business, which made him intriguing. Now he's always shipped off into his own plot with Belle/The Box until the climax. He's almost always at least partially responsible for the mayhem that thrusts the show into the next arc. But other than that, he's in his own world and no one seems to care that the darkest evil lives down the street. He's largely irrelevant to whatever else is going on besides activating plot devices. Actually, I'd argue he's the biggest plot device on the entire show.

Edited May 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I find it deeply disturbing that A&E actually thought the "Make Rumple the Purest of Heart Hero!" arc was a good idea, or considered it "character development".  I've never seen such a ridiculous and ultimately pointless arc.  What was the point?  The purest hero crap completely contradicts his evil actions at the end of 5A.  If the evil was inside, why would he be able to pull out Excalibur?  How does doing one thing to protect the woman he loves demonstrate that he's a hero pure of heart?  That's why I have zero confidence in the whole Good Regina/Evil Queen separation they are planning for 6A, because they haven't thought through any of this.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

It would be interesting if Rumple teamed up with the Evil Queen next season. The "Core Four" characters on this show has evolved into Emma, Hook, Rumple, and Regina, and those four at odds with each other could potentially make for some really interesting drama... which of course means they won't do anything with it. The Evil Queen hates Emma, Rumple hates Hook, normal Regina also seems to hate Hook, so why not have a Emma/Hook vs. Rumple/Regina showdown? Rumple did drop that line in the finale about how the queen was his best student, so hopefully we'll see those two team up together and cause some evil shenanigans. Rumple teaming with the Evil Queen and secretly manipulating Regina at the same time would be infinitely more interesting than watching Robert monologue to a box for half a season.

[Camera One]

Rumple saying Regina was his best student seemed strange, because Zelena and Cora were much stronger.  Rumple only dropped Zelena because he was the thing she loved the most, and to enact the Curse, Rumple needed a loose cannon like Regina. Rumple and Regina did not have an equal relationship, since he was constantly playing her like a violin, whereas Cora outwitted Rumple and broke his heart, while Zelena foiled Rumple's plans more than once.  And let's not forget, apparently, Ursula, Maleficent and Cruella were Rumple's students as well (groan).

[Shanna Marie]

And wasn't there that letter Regina had thought was about her that was really about Zelena and how she was the most gifted student Rumple had found, or something like that?

[Camera One]

Totally forgot about that... apparently, so did A&E.  

[Shanna Marie]

I suppose Rumple could have been playing her, since he knew she was playing him at the time. Neither of them were being sincere, but they were playing along.

[Curio]

I could buy that. He's basically buttering her up in hopes of being able to use her as his puppet again, which I am totally game to watch next season.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I find it deeply disturbing that A&E actually thought the "Make Rumple the Purest of Heart Hero!" arc was a good idea, or considered it "character development".  I've never seen such a ridiculous and ultimately pointless arc.  What was the point?  The purest hero crap completely contradicts his evil actions at the end of 5A.

I guess they wanted to show that Rumple will always choose to do the wrong thing, even if he is given a clean slate (as opposed the Emma and Hook who were able to ultimately defeat the Darkness while they were Dark Ones). It would have been more impactful if Rumple's "clean slate" had lasted for more than half a minute, with Rumple slowly realizing that he prefered being an asshole after all. As it is, it was whiplash inducing. However, even when he was being the hero, his craving for power started to come through after he pulled Excalibur out. He immediately challenged Emam pridefully that he would be the one to defeat her, and he was his typical crocodile-self when he fought Dark Hook. Hook called him out on it in their scene after the fight at night.

Quote

 If the evil was inside, why would he be able to pull out Excalibur?  How does doing one thing to protect the woman he loves demonstrate that he's a hero pure of heart?  

If your heart is a blank slate, I suppose one heroic deed is enough, as there is nothing negative to balance the scale on the other side. But I agree that it was poorly done. Besides, he used magic to defeat "Bearida". It's not like he displayed great valour. Trying to protect your wife from being eaten by a bear is the decent thing to do. Now, if he had done it protect someone like Hook... 

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

And wasn't there that letter Regina had thought was about her that was really about Zelena and how she was the most gifted student Rumple had found, or something like that?

I'm pretty sure that letter was sent while Zelena was his student, when Regina was still a novice at magic. Regina didn't start becoming skilled until after Frankenstein "failed" at reviving Daniel. Even though Zelena was his best at the time she was being tutored, Regina might have surpassed her in Rumple's eyes after she went full-on Evil Queen. "Best student" may not be just about raw skill, but also the relationship between the teacher and the pupil.

Edited May 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I've been reading an advance copy of a book by an author acquaintance, and I realized near the end that the main character is basically Once Rumple. I'm not going to out the author or book because I think you'd have to know her to catch it. It's pretty subtle until you start really looking at it. It's definitely not fan fiction with the serial numbers filed off. I'd say it's more a case of a character inspired by things that intrigue her about Rumple (and maybe that she's frustrated about the show not delving into) who is played by a slightly younger version of Robert Carlyle in her head (the character is described as being around 40). He's Scottish, has straight, longish hair and is described as looking like a 1970s hippie, and he's immortal, though due to something involving alchemy, not stabbing someone with a magic dagger. He runs an antique bookshop rather than a pawn shop. And he's not evil, but this isn't a Draco in Leather Pants thing where he's still doing the same things but we're seeing it from his perspective with his bad deeds rationalized or excused away because all the other characters are just so mean to him. In that respect, he really is a different character. I was going to say that the other characters from Once don't show up at all, but the love interest is a brainy, bookish brunette, and there's another character with some parallels to Hook, in that because he's also immortal, he's the only one left that the main character knew back in the day, and there's a part of the story in which this person is angry and blaming the main character (unfairly) for the death of his wife, and while he's refusing to have anything to do with him, that unintentionally allows something bad to happen, but I think you would really have to squint to say that this is Hook. Besides, he's sort of a secondary hero and the main character's best friend, so that's definitely not the kind of treatment Hook would get in a Rumple in Leather Pants story.

But the book did deal with the immortality in a way that the series hasn't yet acknowledged, which is that people will age and die around him. We haven't seen any relationships between Milah and Cora. Did he get close to anyone in that time and lose them? In all his chasing after Bae, he doesn't seem to have considered that he might not be aging and dying, but his son was mortal. With Belle, he's been constantly seeking ways to maintain his power and immortality without apparently considering that she's going to grow old and die while he remains the same, and now there's baby Damien, who might also grow up, grow old, and die (unless there's something funky going on with his genes, since his father was the Dark One). At this show's glacial pace, there's no real way of dealing with that in the present, and there's that pesky problem of mortal actors, so both of them are aging at the same pace, but that is one story the flashbacks would allow them to cover, as in one episode they could zoom through a lifetime and show the other character aging and then dying. But then I suppose that would require Rumple to care about someone other than himself, and they've made such a big deal out of how different his love for Belle is that it would look like a retcon if he had any other love in the past.

[orza]

So how is that not Rumple fan fiction? Making superficial changes to the story or setting doesn't make it an original work when the characters and backstory are all pilfered.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, orza said:

So how is that not Rumple fan fiction? Making superficial changes to the story or setting doesn't make it an original work when the characters and backstory are all pilfered.

The backstory is entirely different. The character's immortal, but he had that happen in a very different way, for a very different reason. He isn't searching for a long-lost son who tried to escape him, his wife didn't leave him for a pirate, he didn't con anyone into casting a curse. The story is entirely different. The only similarity is a few traits and the physical description of the main character and possibly a few very vague details involving other characters. It's dealing with different mythology in a different setting, with different themes. I don't think anyone who hadn't had the particular conversations I had with the author would even have spotted it, even if they were very familiar with the series, and I only got it because of something the author tweeted right when I was reading a certain part of the book. If it took me that long to figure it out, even with the inside info I have and my knowledge of the series, then I think it can be considered original fiction. There was nothing in what I described previously that even suggested that the changes were only superficial. If anything, the similarities are what's superficial. It's more a case of a writer being inspired by aspects of a character she likes to create another character.

[orza]

What you describe is not entirely different. It is very similar with some details changed. It sounds very much like all the Storybrook High School and Pretty Woman fan fiction floating around the internet. It's still taking someone else's intellectual property, changing it just enough to avoid legal issues and passing it off as one's own original work. This sounds like someone who has the hots for Robert Carlyle as he was in his prime and used his current work as a basis for a self-indulgent fan fiction.

[Camera One]

"50 Shades of Grey" was inspired by and originally very based on characters in "Twilight", and we all know how successful that ultimately became. 

[orza]

From what I understand both are awful, truly cringe-worthy. People have no taste.

[Curio]

And yet we all watch this show...

[Mari]

We watch OUaT.

I don't think we have any standing to judge.  (Not that I've read 50 Shades.  I deliberately have not.)

 

Jinx, @Curio!

Edited July 1, 2016 by Mari
Minds, thinking alike.