The Taylor Swift Topic: Teen Country Sensation to World-Dominating Pop Star

[UYI]

[GaT]

3 hours ago, UYI said:

"ME!" dropped out of the top 10 after only a few weeks, so they're clearly moving on to single #2 very quickly. 

It should have never been in the top 10 to begin with, that song seriously sucks, as does the video.

[Cranberry]

She also clearly wanted this one out during Pride month, for obvious reasons!

I don't like that kind of talk/singing thing she does in "You Need To Calm Down" all that much, but the song has a great message and I'm imagining thousands of fans screaming, "Shade never made anybody less gay" at a concert and it's heartwarming, so I'm gonna say I like it. Still looking forward to the more singer-songwriter-y stuff on the album, though.

[truthaboutluv]

9 hours ago, UYI said:

This sounds like another version of This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things, mixed with a slowed down version of ME. It's starting to feel like she's just releasing the same damn song over and over. And that she took the worse of Reputation and duplicated that for this album. 

[Neko]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

This sounds like another version of This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things, mixed with a slowed down version of ME. It's starting to feel like she's just releasing the same damn song over and over. And that she took the worse of Reputation and duplicated that for this album. 

I agree.  I've been trying to give Taylor a fair chance with this new album (no, really, I have!), but her sound has become repetitive.

I do like the message of the song, though.

[UYI]

I am genuinely curious if this song is the beginning of her coming out. People have been suspecting that she might be a closeted lesbian for YEARS (and not just because of Karlie Kloss, either), and that the guys could have been a way to hide it--and given how she started in country, I could definitely see that being possible (and I'm genuinely sad for her and the pressure she must have felt if that's true). Obviously, it could be that she just wants to be a very effective LGBTQ+ ally, but some of it just seems to be hinting at something specifically about herself. I guess we'll see. 

[truthaboutluv]

59 minutes ago, UYI said:

I am genuinely curious if this song is the beginning of her coming out. People have been suspecting that she might be a closeted lesbian for YEARS (and not just because of Karlie Kloss, either), and that the guys could have been a way to hide it--and given how she started in country, I could definitely see that being possible (and I'm genuinely sad for her and the pressure she must have felt if that's true). Obviously, it could be that she just wants to be a very effective LGBTQ+ ally, but some of it just seems to be hinting at something specifically about herself. I guess we'll see. 

Well unless she'll also admit that her relationship with Joe Alwyn, which is more than two years at this point, is completely fake, as was her fling with Hiddleston and everyone else, she'd be coming out as bisexual, not a lesbian. 

Personally I doubt it. I think this, much like her sudden political declarations is a combination of she feels comfortable enough in her status in the industry to "risk" showing support for the LGBTQ community and speaking out about other political issues. And, on the cynical side, she considers the "risk" worth it for the praise and newer fans she'll get for now being seen as an ally and speaking out about women's rights and 'oh look how bold and outspoken she's being". 

And just to be clear, I'm not saying she's being inauthentic and isn't supportive of the LGBTQ community and doesn't truly believe in the political causes she's gotten behind. Just that I've always considered Taylor a very shrewd person (and that's not a criticism, just a general observation) and so I don't think she does anything without weighing how it will work for her. 

Edited June 14, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[Neko]

29 minutes ago, UYI said:

I am genuinely curious if this song is the beginning of her coming out. People have been suspecting that she might be a closeted lesbian for YEARS (and not just because of Karlie Kloss, either), and that the guys could have been a way to hide it--and given how she started in country, I could definitely see that being possible (and I'm genuinely sad for her and the pressure she must have felt if that's true). Obviously, it could be that she just wants to be a very effective LGBTQ+ ally, but some of it just seems to be hinting at something specifically about herself. I guess we'll see. 

I wondered the same thing, since ME! also makes a "rainbow" reference.  I'm probably reading WAY too much into it, though.

Re-listened to reputation this morning, thanks to this thread.  I liked it a lot better than I did on first listen, especially when I plugged in the Seeb remix for Delicate, and the BloodPop remix for ...Ready For It?, which I think are much better than the original versions.  I actually liked End Game and I Did Something Bad, quite a bit.  But, I still hate Look What You Made Me Do.  That will always be a terrible song, IMO.

I'm intrigued by what she might be doing with her newest album.  It looks like she is going for a more lighthearted aesthetic and sound than reputation, which is probably a good move, but the first single doesn't pack much of a punch.  It sounds like Blank Space, the sequel.  Brendon Urie is a bigger presence than Taylor, on that song.

[Cranberry]

I don't think you're reading too much into it. I've thought the woman was not-straight for at least three years now, and she's really been ramping it up over the past couple months with rainbows everywhere (clothing, social media, filters over photos), the Pride pin on the EW cover, her likes on Tumblr (she's liking posts about being a walking Pride flag and the like), all of her LGBT donations and advocacy (her letters and speeches also include inclusive language that make it sound like she considers herself part of the community), and this song, among other things. She mentions easter eggs, especially clothing-related ones, constantly. She's also never once said she was straight or called herself an ally. I wouldn't be shocked if she comes out (probably as bi or unlabeled) sometime soon, but I wouldn't be shocked if she doesn't, either. Like truthaboutluv said, she's shrewd. This stuff could be testing the waters to see how many fans she'd lose. I think Monday's music video reveal and (presumably) GMA interview will give us a better idea of where she stands.

Edit: She just performed at the Stonewall Inn, but she also wrote this ambiguously-worded Tumblr post in which she may be calling herself an ally or she may be including herself in the LGBT community with the "our gowns" bit, so I'm still not ready to make any predictions here.

[UYI]

[BuyMoreAndSave]

On 6/14/2019 at 1:23 PM, UYI said:

I am genuinely curious if this song is the beginning of her coming out. People have been suspecting that she might be a closeted lesbian for YEARS (and not just because of Karlie Kloss, either), and that the guys could have been a way to hide it--and given how she started in country, I could definitely see that being possible (and I'm genuinely sad for her and the pressure she must have felt if that's true). Obviously, it could be that she just wants to be a very effective LGBTQ+ ally, but some of it just seems to be hinting at something specifically about herself. I guess we'll see. 

There were rumors on the "Kaylor" (Karlie+Taylor) blogs for the past few months, including clues from an anonymous source, that she was going to come out with this album. I go back and forth on whether it might be true...I guess time will tell.

On 6/14/2019 at 1:37 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Well unless she'll also admit that her relationship with Joe Alwyn, which is more than two years at this point, is completely fake, as was her fling with Hiddleston and everyone else, she'd be coming out as bisexual, not a lesbian. 

Personally I doubt it. I think this, much like her sudden political declarations is a combination of she feels comfortable enough in her status in the industry to "risk" showing support for the LGBTQ community and speaking out about other political issues. And, on the cynical side, she considers the "risk" worth it for the praise and newer fans she'll get for now being seen as an ally and speaking out about women's rights and 'oh look how bold and outspoken she's being". 

And just to be clear, I'm not saying she's being inauthentic and isn't supportive of the LGBTQ community and doesn't truly believe in the political causes she's gotten behind. Just that I've always considered Taylor a very shrewd person (and that's not a criticism, just a general observation) and so I don't think she does anything without weighing how it will work for her. 

There were rumors of Joe Alwyn being gay (or at least attracted to men) when he was a student, but nothing substantiated...maybe both of them are bi! Plus all the rumors about Hiddleswift being fake when it was going on.

I definitely believe her previous record deal probably had something in it about not making political statements, because she immediately ramped up the politics right after her contract ended after being silent about it for years. Some people are saying that she's exploiting the LGBT community for record sales, but I feel like in a sense she can't win with everyone. When she's silent people call her out for not speaking out on issues. When she speaks out people call her out for being a privileged straight white woman making money off a song about the LGBT community, or for not wording the message perfectly.

Anyway, I hated "ME!" and I like the message of YNTCD but I'm not really a huge fan of that style of pop. Still holding out hope for the rest of the album because it sounds like it will have a varied sound.

Edited June 18, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

[UYI]

What I'm most looking forward to is whether or not she will have a song with the Dixie Chicks, which has been rumored since a painting of them appeared in the video for "ME!" ("there's a lot of cool chicks out there"). If she uses the opportunity to not only send a single to country radio again, but also uses her clout, and her power, to force many of these stations to play DCX for the first time since 2003...well, that's a plan I can get behind 100 percent.

(There ARE still country stations that play them--it was a de facto ban, not an official one--but many to this day still won't touch their songs at all.) 

Edited June 18, 2019 by UYI

[truthaboutluv]

8 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

ome people are saying that she's exploiting the LGBT community for record sales, but I feel like in a sense she can't win with everyone. When she's silent people call her out for not speaking out on issues. When she speaks out people call her out for being a privileged straight white woman making money off a song about the LGBT community, or for not wording the message perfectly.

Yes, often celebrities can't win because there will always be the cynical to assume the worse about them. That said, I will say in Taylor's case, some are especially wary as they remember her "feminism" period that included her seemingly collecting female friends, all while she was singing songs like Bad Blood which was aimed at Katy Perry.

The whole thing was less feminism and women empowerment and more mean girl/"you can't sit with us" vibe. And it didn't help when it was more or less confirmed that most of these "friendships" was for show. Zendaya definitely put that shit on blast. So yeah, some are understandably side-eying and feeling like "oh is this another version of social justice warrior Taylor"?

In other words, to some it's all very performative wokeness with her versus being genuine. Now just to be clear, I'm not saying I for sure think that is what she's doing. But just that I do understand why some are wary and suspicious. 

[aradia22]

Quote

I am genuinely curious if this song is the beginning of her coming out. People have been suspecting that she might be a closeted lesbian for YEARS (and not just because of Karlie Kloss, either), and that the guys could have been a way to hide it--and given how she started in country, I could definitely see that being possible (and I'm genuinely sad for her and the pressure she must have felt if that's true). Obviously, it could be that she just wants to be a very effective LGBTQ+ ally, but some of it just seems to be hinting at something specifically about herself. I guess we'll see. 

I am getting suspicious. I mean, it doesn't have to be one or the other. She could be bisexual (or identify in any number of ways that isn't entirely straight or gay). I don't think anyone should be pushed out of the closet. If she isn't straight, she can come out in her own time. I may be too cynical but I feel like even if she isn't straight, she won't be coming out anytime soon.

RE: Me! Reading through this thread, I was trying to sing the song to myself to see if it was memorable or not. I do still think it's okay but all my brain came up with was Hailee Steinfeld's Love Myself.

[Cranberry]

Interesting music video. Taylor (literally) burns down her old life, moves into a gay community, ignores homophobic protesters who are screaming at her and her friends, then finds her perfect match -- the burger to her fries -- at a party. Meanwhile, Ryan Reynolds is living outside the trailer park, watching its residents while painting the Stonewall Inn -- basically, being a good ally by observing and learning about gay culture while not involving himself in it.

Here's Taylor's explanation of the Katy Perry bit.

Ryan painting the Stonewall Inn.

Loved that Cher quote at the beginning, too. "My mom said to me, 'You know, sweetheart, one day you should settle down and marry a rich man.' I said, 'Mom, I am a rich man.'"

[UYI]

I will say that I love the irony of her including a trailer park in one of her videos way AFTER she left country music! (And I'm a huge fan of country music, so I don't mean that in a derogatory way at all--I hate the stereotypes surrounding the genre and its fans. But even at her countriest, she still largely stood out in terms of her image in that genre--she wasn't Gretchen Wilson or Miranda Lambert--hell, Carrie Underwood isn't, either, but she projects the tried and true image of a stereotypical "country lady"--someone like Faith Hill, for example.) 

[BuyMoreAndSave]

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yes, often celebrities can't win because there will always be the cynical to assume the worse about them. That said, I will say in Taylor's case, some are especially wary as they remember her "feminism" period that included her seemingly collecting female friends, all while she was singing songs like Bad Blood which was aimed at Katy Perry.

The whole thing was less feminism and women empowerment and more mean girl/"you can't sit with us" vibe. And it didn't help when it was more or less confirmed that most of these "friendships" was for show. Zendaya definitely put that shit on blast. So yeah, some are understandably side-eying and feeling like "oh is this another version of social justice warrior Taylor"?

In other words, to some it's all very performative wokeness with her versus being genuine. Now just to be clear, I'm not saying I for sure think that is what she's doing. But just that I do understand why some are wary and suspicious. 

She actually addressed the "squad" in an interview recently (it was the one with a list of 30 things, I forgot what magazine). They were/are really her friends and the friendships themselves were not for show. But she said that she was so excited to have so many female friends after being bullied in school that she wanted to "shout it from the rooftops" which is why she paraded it around so much. Then later she realized that it probably was coming off as "you can't sit with us" and that people who were bullied or isolated might feel even worse after seeing that, so that was one reason why she made her social life more private (the pre-Reputation drama being another reason). But just because she doesn't show off her friendships as much doesn't mean she isn't friends with those people anymore.

Also I don't think having a public feud with one specific woman makes someone not a feminist, as that has nothing to do with women having equal rights and opportunities. I think these rich people feuds are so dumb/hilarious though because it's like they have no real problems so they have to invent problems..."Kim, there's people that are dying!"

[truthaboutluv]

4 minutes ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

But she said that she was so excited to have so many female friends after being bullied in school that she wanted to "shout it from the rooftops" which is why she paraded it around so much.

Well except the bullied in school has always been questionable as many former classmates of hers posted online during her early years, when she first broke out and kept talking about this bullying she went through, to say that in fact Taylor had many friends but more importantly, she was barely ever at the school since she was working on her career. 

4 minutes ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

Also I don't think having a public feud with one specific woman makes someone not a feminist, as that has nothing to do with women having equal rights and opportunities.

One, I feel like feminism is often one of the most misunderstood constructs. Equal rights and opportunities isn't solely just about the political arena, though of course that's very important because change happens through policy changes. But change also happens with social awareness and changing mindsets.

Point being, it is feminism when you don't seek to pit a woman against each other, or attack another one to make yourself look or feel better. And it wasn't one public feud. My issue with Taylor's brand of feminism wasn't even specifically about the Katy Perry situation since I think Katy is plenty problematic herself at times.

No, it was her essentially writing a slut shaming song about another woman simply because she was dumped by a guy for said girl. And she's never apologized, EVER.  The most she said was that she was young. That's not an apology. Her fans will say she stopped performing it but it continues to exist in the public sphere. Not to mention she probably only doesn't perform it because it doesn't fit her recent tour themes, not because she's seen the error of her ways. 

And by the way, yes I am speaking about Better Than Revenge, which she clearly wrote about Camilla Belle. See to me, even if we accept the she was young excuse. In my opinion, when she began her big feminism kick, complete with parade of female best friends, she should have taken the moment to address it and actually truly apologize. She didn't and she likely never will because Taylor's never apologized for anything.

Edited June 18, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[UYI]

48 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Well except the bullied in school has always been questionable as many former classmates of hers posted online during her early years, when she first broke out and kept talking about this bullying she went through, to say that in fact Taylor had many friends but more importantly, she was barely ever at the school since she was working on her career. 

One, I feel like feminism is often one of the most misunderstood constructs. Equal rights and opportunities isn't solely just about the political arena, though of course that's very important because change happens through policy changes. But change also happens with social awareness and changing mindsets.

Point being, it is feminism when you don't seek to pit a woman against each other, or attack another one to make yourself look or feel better. And it wasn't one public feud. My issue with Taylor's brand of feminism wasn't even specifically about the Katy Perry situation since I think Katy is plenty problematic herself at times.

No, it was her essentially writing a slut shaming song about another woman simply because she was dumped by a guy for said girl. And she's never apologized, EVER.  The most she said was that she was young. That's not an apology. Her fans will say she stopped performing it but it continues to exist in the public sphere. Not to mention she probably only doesn't perform it because it doesn't fit her recent tour themes, not because she's seen the error of her ways. 

And by the way, yes I am speaking about Better Than Revenge, which she clearly wrote about Camilla Belle. See to me, even if we accept the she was young excuse. In my opinion, when she began her big feminism kick, complete with parade of female best friends, she should have taken the moment to address it and actually truly apologize. She didn't and she likely never will because Taylor's never apologized for anything.

Technically, she did apologize for butting into the rant Nicki Minaj went on in 2015 about the VMAs and the advantage she felt white women have over black women, but the hole she dug for herself on Twitter was so big--and she was so clearly in the wrong, whether or not Nicki was indirectly talking about her, she hadn't been tagged or addressed directly and she STILL responded like she had been--that I suppose it could be looked at as necessary PR damage control. There's a possibility she WASN'T sorry (personally I think she was, even if it wasn't necessarily for the right reasons), but she had been backed into a corner that she couldn't escape without an apology. 

She also recently acknowledged regret for saying on Ellen's show in 2008 that Joe Jonas had broken up with her on the phone in less than 30 seconds, which I guess sort of counts as an apology (not that I care much about that one, but still). 

Edited June 18, 2019 by UYI

[GaT]

48 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

No, it was her essentially writing a slut shaming song about another woman simply because she was dumped by a guy for said girl. And she's never apologized, EVER.  The most she said was that she was young. That's not an apology. Her fans will say she stopped performing it but it continues to exist in the public sphere. Not to mention she probably only doesn't perform it because it doesn't fit her recent tour themes, not because she's seen the error of her ways. 

And by the way, yes I am speaking about Better Than Revenge, which she clearly wrote about Camilla Belle. See to me, even if we accept the she was young excuse. In my opinion, when she began her big feminism kick, complete with parade of female best friends, she should have taken the moment to address it and actually truly apologize. She didn't and she likely never will because Taylor's never apologized for anything.

Full disclosure, I don't like Camilla Belle, so this may color my opinion, but I think that if someone comes along & breaks up your relationship, then you can say what you want about them. I was watching "Nightly Pop" last night & they were talking about somebody's reaction to something & Nina Parker said "You don't get to say how I use the hurt you gave me", which is one of the truest statements I've ever heard. If Camilla Belle didn't want Taylor to talk trash about her, she should have stayed away from Joe Jonas (who I do not hold blameless). I don't think Taylor owes her an apology for anything, & it has absolutely nothing to do with feminism, in fact, I think that saying Taylor should apologize is anti-feminism.

Every time I hear the phrase "There is a special place in hell for women who don't support other women" I have to grit my teeth to stop from screaming. Just because we're both members of the vagina club does not mean I'm going to support you. You want my support & respect? EARN THEM, the same as a man. Saying that Taylor should apologize to Camilla is no different than all the people who think the US women's soccer team should apologize for celebrating after beating Thailand 13-0. Girls should be nice, they shouldn't cause trouble, they shouldn't say what they think because it may be rude. The hell with that.

[truthaboutluv]

6 minutes ago, GaT said:

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

No, it was her essentially writing a slut shaming song about another woman simply because she was dumped by a guy for said girl. And she's never apologized, EVER.  The most she said was that she was young. That's not an apology. Her fans will say she stopped performing it but it continues to exist in the public sphere. Not to mention she probably only doesn't perform it because it doesn't fit her recent tour themes, not because she's seen the error of her ways. 

And by the way, yes I am speaking about Better Than Revenge, which she clearly wrote about Camilla Belle. See to me, even if we accept the she was young excuse. In my opinion, when she began her big feminism kick, complete with parade of female best friends, she should have taken the moment to address it and actually truly apologize. She didn't and she likely never will because Taylor's never apologized for anything.

Read more  

Full disclosure, I don't like Camilla Belle, so this may color my opinion, but I think that if someone comes along & breaks up your relationship, then you can say what you want about them.

Is this still because she supposedly hated Twilight because funny, I think that makes her brilliant since I think Twilight everything sucked - books and movies, YMMV. That aside, Camilla didn't "come along and break up" Taylor's millisecond relationship with Joe. Joe has spoken about all this mess over the years. 

Joe had a public crush on Camilla. There was some interview he and his brothers did where he called her his celebrity crush, that if he ever met her he would tell how much he loved her, etc. This was before his millisecond relationship with Taylor.

Later on Camilla ends up being cast in the Jonas Brothers' Love Bug video where lo and behold, Joe got to be in direct contact with his celebrity crush. And so he did what most 19 (he might have been younger actually at that time) year old boys would do, who wasn't in some committed relationship. HE pursued HER.

But more importantly, as he tells it, he broke up with Taylor before fully pursuing things with Camilla. That was the infamous 19 second call according to her. Except as Joe always told it, essentially once Taylor saw where the conversation was going and she didn't like it, she hung up on him versus his calling and just saying "bye" and dumping her in 18 seconds as she claimed.

But more importantly, what makes Better Than Revenge slut shaming wasn't just Taylor's saying, "oh you stole my boyfriend". It was lines about Camilla being better known for what she does on a mattress, talking about how she had no class and dignity, etc. Girl went full psycho mean girl on this person. And the craziest part, according to Joe, Camilla like him was a virgin at that time and they didn't sleep together. He lost his virginity to Ashley Greene. 

YMMV but in my opinion, that whole situation was the epitome of Taylor's narcissistic white girl privilege. How dare he pick and like some other girl over her? And so very much like a Regina George, she went after said girl with every bit of her petty venom. And years later, while some of her stans by the way still throw around words like whore about Camilla, she gets to say "oh I was young" and if you call her out on any of her crap, "you're a hater, you're anti-feminist, etc. etc."

[UYI]

2 hours ago, GaT said:

Every time I hear the phrase "There is a special place in hell for women who don't support other women" I have to grit my teeth to stop from screaming. 

Funny, I can think of someone who once said that herself:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2013/04/taylor-swift-cover-story

Quote

When asked by Access Hollywood a week later if she was afraid that Swift would write a song about her, Fey said, “I hope so. I would love it!” And maybe she will. When we were discussing that moment at the Golden Globes, and mean girls in general, Swift just smiled and said, “You know, Katie Couric is one of my favorite people because she said to me she had heard a quote that she loved”—from former secretary of state Madeleine Albright—“that said, ‘There’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help other women.’ ”

[GaT]

1 hour ago, UYI said:

Funny, I can think of someone who once said that herself:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2013/04/taylor-swift-cover-story

I know, I've heard her say it a number of times.

[Neko]

I'm just waiting for Taylor to do something awful to Katy Perry, now that they've buried the hatchet...

Edited June 19, 2019 by Shakma

[BuyMoreAndSave]

On 6/18/2019 at 1:28 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Well except the bullied in school has always been questionable as many former classmates of hers posted online during her early years, when she first broke out and kept talking about this bullying she went through, to say that in fact Taylor had many friends but more importantly, she was barely ever at the school since she was working on her career. 

One, I feel like feminism is often one of the most misunderstood constructs. Equal rights and opportunities isn't solely just about the political arena, though of course that's very important because change happens through policy changes. But change also happens with social awareness and changing mindsets.

Point being, it is feminism when you don't seek to pit a woman against each other, or attack another one to make yourself look or feel better. And it wasn't one public feud. My issue with Taylor's brand of feminism wasn't even specifically about the Katy Perry situation since I think Katy is plenty problematic herself at times.

No, it was her essentially writing a slut shaming song about another woman simply because she was dumped by a guy for said girl. And she's never apologized, EVER.  The most she said was that she was young. That's not an apology. Her fans will say she stopped performing it but it continues to exist in the public sphere. Not to mention she probably only doesn't perform it because it doesn't fit her recent tour themes, not because she's seen the error of her ways. 

And by the way, yes I am speaking about Better Than Revenge, which she clearly wrote about Camilla Belle. See to me, even if we accept the she was young excuse. In my opinion, when she began her big feminism kick, complete with parade of female best friends, she should have taken the moment to address it and actually truly apologize. She didn't and she likely never will because Taylor's never apologized for anything.

From what I've heard the bullying happened in 8th-10th grade before she was working on the record. She wasn't a social outcast in school (in fact she is still friends with some of her high school friends) but basically she was in one of the popular cliques and then the popular clique ostracized her, is what I read. And there was a while where her mom was basically her only friend. I feel like pretty much everyone gets bullied or excluded in middle school though and a lot of people in high school too. It didn't sound like what happened to her was all that bad to still be affected by it 15 years later...but what do I know.

I mean for example Elon Musk was bullied so much in school that he literally ended up hospitalized after getting beaten up one time...now that is bad bullying...and I think that explains a lot of his behavior today. But maybe for someone like Taylor who hasn't had many real problems in her life (besides her parents' cancer plus she has made comments indicating she had an eating disorder in the 1989 era), that was traumatizing for her.

I agree she should have apologized for the song like how Hayley Williams apologized for Misery Business. She was high school age at the time when she wrote it and apparently was under the impression that Camilla Belle "stole" her boyfriend and that they "emotionally cheated" before actually getting together. But it seems like she later realized that wasn't what happened since she said in an interview "I was 18 when I wrote that. That's the age you are when you think someone can actually take your boyfriend. Then you grow up and realize no one can take someone from you if they don't want to leave." Yet she still stopped short of actually apologizing.

But that being said I will always disagree with the premise that feminism means "never say anything bad about another woman ever, purely because they are female." Taylor has trash talked and had feuds with a lot of guys too as we all know, so she is adhering to the definition of feminism by treating individual men and women with equal contempt, LOL. And I don't agree with her favorite quote about women who don't help other women either. Like, sorry, but it's biased to treat someone differently because of what gender they are, full stop. A lot of people co-opt feminism and other things like that for their own personal agendas and Taylor was no different when she said that.

[UYI]

The story that I have always heard is that the worst (or maybe only) bullying Taylor ever received was when she was still in middle school in Pennsylvania, apparently because of her unusual love of country music (oh the IRONY, given her ultimate career arc, huh?), but once she moved to Tennessee for her career and started high school, she had a few more friends because more people shared her interests.

I will say that there were rumors in the early days that SHE was the one bullying others at school, rather than the other way around (I think suggesting that she would berate someone, then when a teacher asked what was going on, she turned on the waterworks and acted like the injured party), but who knows at this point? 

Edited June 21, 2019 by UYI

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

But that being said I will always disagree with the premise that feminism means "never say anything bad about another woman ever, purely because they are female."

And we agree because I've certainly never said that. What I said and stand by is that I could never take seriously someone talking about female empowerment and feminism when they wrote an entire song slut shaming another woman, essentially invited their fans to do the same to said individual and never apologized for it.

It's like my issue with Beyonce talking about feminism in her song Flawless and yet the song is riddled with "Bow Down Bitches", as in bow down to her greatness. Like yeah I'm sorry, I can't take a person seriously when talking about female empowerment while referring to other women as bitches.

And don't get me wrong I like Beyonce. I just think much like Taylor, sometimes their brand of female empowerment and feminism is a tad problematic. 

[UYI]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

And we agree because I've certainly never said that. What I said and stand by is that I could never take seriously someone talking about female empowerment and feminism when they wrote an entire song slut shaming another woman, essentially invited their fans to do the same to said individual and never apologized for it.

It's like my issue with Beyonce talking about feminism in her song Flawless and yet the song is riddled with "Bow Down Bitches", as in bow down to her greatness. Like yeah I'm sorry, I can't take a person seriously when talking about female empowerment while referring to other women as bitches.

And don't get me wrong I like Beyonce. I just think much like Taylor, sometimes their brand of female empowerment and feminism is a tad problematic. 

It's funny you mention that, because after all the issues Taylor supposedly had with being referred to as a "bitch" by Kanye in "Famous", it became very popular for her to lead her fans on a "1-2-3, LET'S GO BITCH!" chant as she launched into "Delicate" on the Reputation Tour. 

[Cranberry]

She didn't come up with that, though. A fan randomly did it one day and it went viral and became a thing at all her shows. She went along with it and at this point just seems amused by it. There were enough Swift fans at Wango Tango and the Ally Coalition show that they even did it there!

[GaT]

4 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

I agree she should have apologized for the song like how Hayley Williams apologized for Misery Business. She was high school age at the time when she wrote it and apparently was under the impression that Camilla Belle "stole" her boyfriend and that they "emotionally cheated" before actually getting together. But it seems like she later realized that wasn't what happened since she said in an interview "I was 18 when I wrote that. That's the age you are when you think someone can actually take your boyfriend. Then you grow up and realize no one can take someone from you if they don't want to leave." Yet she still stopped short of actually apologizing.

This is the first I have ever heard about Misery Business being about Camilla Belle, so at least 2 girls/women have written songs about her cheating with their boyfriends? 

[UYI]

54 minutes ago, GaT said:

This is the first I have ever heard about Misery Business being about Camilla Belle, so at least 2 girls/women have written songs about her cheating with their boyfriends? 

No, it's not about her. But it's clearly written in the same vein and BTR was pretty obviously inspired by it, both lyrically and instrumentation-wise. And given that Hayley and Taylor have known each other since nearly the very beginning of their careers (Hayley grew up in Nashville), it actually makes more sense than one might initially think. 

[BuyMoreAndSave]

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

And we agree because I've certainly never said that. What I said and stand by is that I could never take seriously someone talking about female empowerment and feminism when they wrote an entire song slut shaming another woman, essentially invited their fans to do the same to said individual and never apologized for it.

It's like my issue with Beyonce talking about feminism in her song Flawless and yet the song is riddled with "Bow Down Bitches", as in bow down to her greatness. Like yeah I'm sorry, I can't take a person seriously when talking about female empowerment while referring to other women as bitches.

And don't get me wrong I like Beyonce. I just think much like Taylor, sometimes their brand of female empowerment and feminism is a tad problematic. 

Isn't that just gatekeeping though? Like "you have to be 100% perfectly feminist at all times or you can't sit with us"?

I think it's more about the overall balance of actions and opinions. Also I don't think using the word "bitch" automatically excludes someone from the feminism club, especially because it can have a positive context (there is even a feminist magazine called Bitch).

1 hour ago, UYI said:

It's funny you mention that, because after all the issues Taylor supposedly had with being referred to as a "bitch" by Kanye in "Famous", it became very popular for her to lead her fans on a "1-2-3, LET'S GO BITCH!" chant as she launched into "Delicate" on the Reputation Tour. 

Those are linguistically distinct usages of the word "bitch" with different connotations behind them.

1 hour ago, GaT said:

This is the first I have ever heard about Misery Business being about Camilla Belle, so at least 2 girls/women have written songs about her cheating with their boyfriends? 

Misery Business wasn't about her. It was just a similar song and was retired from performance because Hayley said she had grown up and didn't agree with the message anymore.

Edited June 21, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

[UYI]

2 minutes ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

Those are linguistically distinct usages of the word "bitch" with different connotations behind them.

Yes they are, I was just surprised, because she made it sound like she had a problem with the word period, regardless of context.

Now that I know a fan came up with it, it makes more sense. And I did wonder if she used it as a way to own something she felt had harmed her, which is clearly what happened with the snake stuff, too--claiming it as her own after it was used against her. IDK. 

[27bored]

These last two singles haven’t been it. “Me!” could’ve worked as a lead single for a film. As a lead off single, it’s just LAME! Not only that but the big video underlines the song. A lyric video would’ve sufficed, but it’s clear this was meant to work. Eh.

“You Need To Calm Down” is...yeah. I’ve heard the gay rumors about Taylor and I’ve mostly not cared, nor have I believed them, but I will say I hope if Taylor is going to reveal something about her sexuality at this stage in the game, I hope it’s followed up by something we can see. Meaning, if Taylor’s not gay but is kind of into girls, I’m sorry but she can keep that. That’s not an announcement. That’s not really news. That doesn’t make her queer and an outcast. If anything, it just seems like The Gay Rollout that we’ve seen before. I always wonder when I hear female celebrities claim to be bisexual or pansexual or whatever how many serious, committed relationships they have had or would have with a woman. If you just like to get drunk/high and make out with chicks sometimes, that’s your business, but it’s not really a revelation. And if the extent of your being pro-LGBT or part of that group is having Todrick Hall and other dudes prance around in heels in your music video, that just comes off shallow and self-serving because at the end of the day you’re trying to sell a product.

It’s always interesting to me when pop stars, especially female pop stars, don’t seem to realize when the savviest move they can make is to Do Less/Do What We Liked You For In The First Place. As a minor, fair weather fan, I bet there are so many people who wish Taylor would just pick up the guitar again and make another Country record. They would be perfectly fine. But Taylor wants to Grand Marshal the Pride parade, so...

We’ll see how this works out for Tay Tay, but I’m thinking it might have some quickly diminishing returns.

Edited June 24, 2019 by 27bored

[Kromm]

On 6/14/2019 at 1:25 AM, Cranberry said:

She also clearly wanted this one out during Pride month, for obvious reasons!

I don't like that kind of talk/singing thing she does in "You Need To Calm Down" all that much, but the song has a great message and I'm imagining thousands of fans screaming, "Shade never made anybody less gay" at a concert and it's heartwarming, so I'm gonna say I like it. Still looking forward to the more singer-songwriter-y stuff on the album, though.

While "Me!" was just awful in almost every way, "You Need To Calm Down" in my opinion is actually good. Yes, I'd agree she's not even singing for most of it, it's really kind of like white girl rapping, but it actually works. And that's before we even get to the lyrics, which even aside from how great the message is, are clever. 

I will say that watching a bunch of YouTube reaction videos of people viewing this, I did wind up thinking though that Taylor is kind of snowing everybody with her making-up storyline with Katy Perry, and people are actually buying it. It didn't escape my notice that Taylor generically thanked all the guest stars in the video and hasn't mentioned Perry by name at all, at least in the publicity I've seen. I'm betting that story isn't over, even if the two of them keep any remaining beef off the Internet. 

[truthaboutluv]

On 6/21/2019 at 1:17 AM, BuyMoreAndSave said:

Isn't that just gatekeeping though? Like "you have to be 100% perfectly feminist at all times or you can't sit with us"?

No, one doesn't have to be perfect because after all, it is through mistakes we sometimes get growth. But the growth usually comes when we acknowledge the mistakes. Has she? Because I didn't notice.

Saying you were young and back then didn't realize that no one can take anyone from you is not an acknowledgement and apology of, "I was guilty of slut shaming another woman. It was wrong, unfair and disrespectful to her, etc."

So YMMV, you will excuse me then for rolling my eyes and thinking that some display of feminism that essentially equated to parading her cool, famous girlfriends, was bullshit and the definition of performative wokeness.

On 6/21/2019 at 1:17 AM, BuyMoreAndSave said:

I think it's more about the overall balance of actions and opinions. Also I don't think using the word "bitch" automatically excludes someone from the feminism club, especially because it can have a positive context (there is even a feminist magazine called Bitch).

Yes, I am well aware of the various usage of the word bitch. And so yes, when Beyonce says lines like, "You know you're that bitch when you cause all that conversation" and is clearly referring to herself, hey more power to her. 

But when she has a song that the first half quotes a feminism thesis that refers to the fact that women are taught to compete and essentially put each other down as a result of patriarchy and then in the other half of the song, she essentially tells "bitches" to bow down to her greatness, the message becomes a bit muddled. 

For the record, this is not a dislike of Taylor or Beyonce. Hell I'd be lying I said I didn't jam to Flawless a number of times, all the while feeling very guilty doing so.  

It's not a sweeping judgement against their efforts in addressing these social issues. And yes, I don't expect them to be absolutely perfect. But I don't think it's unfair on my part to point out the problematic aspects of some of these messages. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[BuyMoreAndSave]

3 hours ago, 27bored said:

I’ve heard the gay rumors about Taylor and I’ve mostly not cared, nor have I believed them, but I will say I hope if Taylor is going to reveal something about her sexuality at this stage in the game, I hope it’s followed up by something we can see. Meaning, if Taylor’s not gay but is kind of into girls, I’m sorry but she can keep that. That’s not an announcement. That’s not really news. That doesn’t make her queer and an outcast. If anything, it just seems like The Gay Rollout that we’ve seen before. I always wonder when I hear female celebrities claim to be bisexual or pansexual or whatever how many serious, committed relationships they have had or would have with a woman. If you just like to get drunk/high and make out with chicks sometimes, that’s your business, but it’s not really a revelation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_erasure

16 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

No, one doesn't have to be perfect because after all, it is through mistakes we sometimes get growth. But the growth usually comes when we acknowledge the mistakes. Has she? Because I didn't notice.

Saying you were young and back then didn't realize that no one can take anyone from you is not an acknowledgement and apology of, "I was guilty of slut shaming another woman. It was wrong, unfair and disrespectful to her, etc."

So YMMV, you will excuse me then for rolling my eyes and thinking that some display of feminism that essentially equated to parading her cool, famous girlfriends, was bullshit and the definition of performative wokeness.

Yes, I am well aware of the various usage of the word bitch. And so yes, when Beyonce says lines like, "You know you're that bitch when you cause all that conversation" and is clearly referring to herself, hey more power to her. 

But when she has a song that the first half quotes a feminism thesis that refers to the fact that women are taught to compete and essentially put each other down as a result of patriarchy and then in the other half of the song, she essentially tells "bitches" to bow down to her greatness, the message becomes a bit muddled. 

For the record, this is not a dislike of Taylor or Beyonce. Hell I'd be lying I said I didn't jam to Flawless a number of times, all the while feeling very guilty doing so.  

It's not a sweeping judgement against their efforts in addressing these social issues. And yes, I don't expect them to be absolutely perfect. But I don't think it's unfair on my part to point out the problematic aspects of some of these messages. 

Basically it boils down to, I have less of a problem with Better than Revenge or "bitch" than with some of the statements made in the guise of feminism. And I don't think one needs to be perfect at gender relations to consider themselves a feminist or make contributions to gender equality.

[27bored]

6 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_erasure

That’s not what I’m talking about. I understand bisexuality exists; I’m talking about how it tends to work as an arc in a public figure’s narrative. It’s usually less about living one’s truth and more about upping the ante on their sex appeal or a play for the gay audience. These days there’s typically a third reason, which is to incubate oneself with convenient political rhetoric so the next time somebody says something sideways about you, you have a built-in audience who will rush to your defense...even if they’re not really into what you’re doing, either.

With Taylor, I also feel like this is yet another example of her playing the victim. You Need To Calm Down has a scene in the video where a bunch of rednecks are yelling about...something. Taylor, people have been “calm” on you for a minute. That’s why your last few singles came and went. That’s why you’re hinting at bisexuality and making up with Katy Perry.

[Halting Hex]

On 6/18/2019 at 3:13 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Joe had a public crush on Camilla. There was some interview he and his brothers did where he called her his celebrity crush, that if he ever met her he would tell how much he loved her, etc. This was before his millisecond relationship with Taylor.

Later on Camilla ends up being cast in the Jonas Brothers' Love Bug video where lo and behold, Joe got to be in direct contact with his celebrity crush. And so he did what most 19 (he might have been younger actually at that time) year old boys would do, who wasn't in some committed relationship. HE pursued HER.

But more importantly, as he tells it, he broke up with Taylor before fully pursuing things with Camilla. That was the infamous 19 second call according to her. Except as Joe always told it, essentially once Taylor saw where the conversation was going and she didn't like it, she hung up on him versus his calling and just saying "bye" and dumping her in 18 seconds as she claimed.

Joe's gay.  (So are Kevin and Nick.) The whole "romance" was arranged by management to help promote his and Taylor's careers.  However, in the fall of '08, people started noticing how Camilla and Maria Sharapova were pretty much attached at the hip, and the lesbian rumors for the two of them moved past the usual hideaways (gay & lesbian forums, celebrity gossip sites) and started appearing on mainstream tennis forums.  At which point, somebody coughed discreetly about how Maria had $35,000,000 in endorsement deals and how Russia was not exactly fond of the gays, and maybe it would be better if she and Camilla weren't doing an impression of Siamese twins any more.  So it behooved the girls to grab "boyfriends" as quickly as possible and all of a sudden Masha was "dating" the LA Lakers' Sasha Vujacic (they got "engaged" for a while, and then she quietly dumped him when his career fizzled and he was playing in the media backwater that is Turkey, instead of LA), while Camilla suddenly found the star of the music video she was appearing in very appealing.  And Joe thought a "movie star" was a distinct trade-up from "minor country singer with only one album under her belt", hence the phone call.

Taylor was not pleased, given that Fearless was coming out soon and the last thing she needed was to be seen as a loser who'd been dumped and to be without a "boyfriend" to distract people from the fact that she was much more interested in spending time with Selena Gomez than with Joe (even when they were out "together", there was usually a considerable amount of distance between Joe and her, just there would be between Joe and Camilla; PDAs were not exactly a thing).  I mean, it's not as if journalists would be asking "so, why did Emily Poe leave the band, anyway?" right off the top, but Taylor was hardly a big star at this point, and she apparently already felt so badly about letting management cough discreetly in her direction about Emily that she'd written a song about it…which she's never been able to play live.  Not even once.  (The song is "Breathe", the one with all the "I'm sorry" lyrics in the chorus.  In the two-part "making of" video, Taylor tells Colbie Caillat that "It sounds like a break-up song, but it's really about losing a friend."  Don't worry, Taylor, you'll make new "friends"…)  Remember, Taylor was the featured act on a fledgling label; the pressure on her to perform (in every sense of the word) was considerable, no doubt.  So she resented Camilla for throwing the spanner in the works.  Was "Better than Revenge" a high point in her feminist writings?  No, but I understand the reasons for it.

(Camilla eventually "dated" Tim Tebow.  [Stop laughing!!] Their "romance" consisted of one trip to the Met Gala together, where they practically stood on opposite sides of the red carpet and if they made eye contact, the cameras missed it. [This was after Taylor and Tebow's mutual agent, Thor Bradwell, tried to promote "love triangle" rumors about the two of them and another client, Dianna Agron.  Taylor and Dianna were so uninterested in this idea that they started being seen together in public, and soon Jimmy Kimmel was asking Dianna if she was dating Taylor.  Which, well…we've got two albums' worth of discussion for that. Although IMO "Treacherous" is all you need…])

Well, before you start saying I "fell down the rabbit hole" (name of Dianna's Tumblr, referenced in the "Wonderland" lyrics), let me get back to why I actually came here.  Does anyone know how the Billboard 100 works?  I mean, the current chart, which doesn't include "You Need to Come Out Calm Down" is dated "June 22nd", but the song was released on June 14th.  (A "birthday present" for the not-exactly-an-ally President Trump, some theorize.)  How come it's not listed yet?  (It's certainly going to debut very high up, possibly at #1.)  I assume next week, but why the lag time?  I'm confused.

Thanks in advance.

(I believe the phone call lasted 27 seconds, actually.  At least that's what Taylor claims in the vlog where she berates the Joe Jonas doll, IIRC.)

19 hours ago, 27bored said:

That’s why your last few singles came and went.

Taylor's last two American singles were "Delicate" (a #1 on three different charts, #12 on the main one, and Taylor's longest-charting single ever) and "ME!" (debuted at #2, blocked only by a song that's been #1 for 11 consecutive weeks and counting).  I think it's safe to say that pretty much every artist on the planet would want their singles to "come and go" like that.  But JMO.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Halting Hex
It would be nice if "Auto-correct" wouldn't "fix" Dianna's surname, wouldn't it? Sigh.

[Neko]

None of these people really care about feminism.  They just want people to kiss their asses, and cater to them.

[27bored]

19 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Taylor's last two American singles were "Delicate" (a #1 on three different charts, #12 on the main one, and Taylor's longest-charting single ever) and "ME!" (debuted at #2, blocked only by a song that's been #1 for 11 consecutive weeks and counting).  I think it's safe to say that pretty much every artist on the planet would want their singles to "come and go" like that.  But JMO.

Taylor’s not just some random artist. Her track record is impressive in comparison to most artists, past or present, but there has been a fall off. There’s the natural fall off that happens when artists stop chasing the fame and success — like Kelly Clarkson, for example — and then there’s the fall off that happens when your shtick gets old and people start getting tired of you.

I just saw this video of I Knew You Were Trouble from the 1989 tour:

One: Taylor looks like an egret when she does her pop star strut. Second: you don’t have to be a great dancer to be able to take inventory of choreography. Choreography doesn’t work if the Star seems disconnected from it. This could’ve worked better with just band and vocals and maybe let the dancers come in the middle or something. Third: while I like this arrangement, this sounds a bit like if Halsey did I Knew You Were Trouble. And finally, this arrangement really makes me wish Taylor could really sing. There’s a lot of space for her to ad-lib and riff and run and match the energy a bit. But Taylor seems swallowed up by the whole thing. 

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, 27bored said:

then there’s the fall off that happens when your shtick gets old and people start getting tired of you.

Except that Taylor just broke her own record for most-successful female North American tour.  So clearly that ain't happening.

Quote

Following the tour's 29th show in North America at Hard Rock Stadium in Miami, it had grossed $202.3 million in the continent ($191.1 million in the United States and $11.1 million in Canada) thus breaking Swift's own record of the highest grossing North American tour by a female artist, previously held by The 1989 World Tour, with fewer dates.

As your critique is from the 1989 tour, clearly the "fall off" did not affect the subsequent tour.

Something I didn't know until yesterday:  All five North American singles from reputation reached the Top 20.  ("Look What You Made Me Do" was #1, "…ready for it?" was #4, "How Did This Crap Ever Make the Album?"…er, I mean, "End Game" was #18, "Gorgeous" #15, and as mentioned, "Delicate" #12, plus topping three radio charts and hitting #4 on a fourth.)  This was the first time any album had spawned five Top 20 hits since…1989, three years earlier.  Again, no "fall off" in sight.  

(And I think it's pretty safe to say that once "You Need to Calm Down" hits the charts, Taylor will have already banked a pair of Top 20 Top 10 hits from Lover and likely a pair of Top 5s.  So again, no sign of decline, so far.  And if "YNtCD" hits #1, then she's ahead of her previous album's pace.  Just saying.)

Yes, people will vocally dislike Taylor.  Such people have always existed, and they've always been vocal.  But they certainly haven't affected Taylor's commercial success and there's no indication any sort of "tipping point" is even in sight, much less has been reached.  (And, personally, I'm just overjoyed that she's free of Max Martin.  2.5 albums was more than enough, much though I loved RED and 1989.)  But JMO.

The haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate

[She's] just gonna shake it off

[UYI]

The Dixie Chicks officially confirmed yesterday that they have a new album on the way, and now I'm wondering if Taylor is featured on it, or they'll be on Lover, or hell, even both.

And I know this will get me murdered in some circles, but I really do prefer Country!Taylor, or at least Folk!Taylor. I feel like her songwriting has largely taken a MAJOR dive in creativity since she officially went pop. There's definitely an art to a good pop song, but I feel like she's just better in a more folk vein, with maybe a few country leanings. I hate the idea that people see her doing an album again in that lane is seen as something you can ONLY do once you're not seen as commercially viable anymore. I mean, Emmylou Harris was pressured to go more pop after her first few country rock albums, but instead she became even MORE traditional country, and even did a BLUEGRASS album. That's just where her heart was, and those albums still sold very well. 

Again, though, that's just me. I KNOW how unpopular that is. The truth is, I have become a bigger country fan as I have gotten older, so I like getting the chance to hear stuff like that, even if it makes dreadfully uncool. 🙂 

[Neko]

12 hours ago, UYI said:

Again, though, that's just me. I KNOW how unpopular that is. The truth is, I have become a bigger country fan as I have gotten older, so I like getting the chance to hear stuff like that, even if it makes dreadfully uncool. 🙂 

Are you saying you were country when country wasn't cool? 😉

Anyway, I definitely prefer pop Taylor, because I think her personality is better suited to pop music, than country music.  Granted, I don't know much about country music, but I think pop gives Taylor the chance to play with her image in a way country probably wouldn't.  Whether or not she comes up with good ideas and songs consistently is up for debate, but I would rather take hit-or-miss pop Taylor over one-note country Taylor.  That's just me.

[UYI]

10 minutes ago, Neko said:

Are you saying you were country when country wasn't cool? 😉

I guess so. The irony is that that particular song--even with George Jones--isn't the most traditionally country song either. 😛

I can understand on some level why she's better off in pop music--even if, personally, I feel her songwriting has suffered to an extent since 1989--but it is sometimes sad to think that there were people who were only willing to really give her a chance once it was clear she was leaving country behind, that the idea of liking someone who is primarily a country artist is considered a dirty secret, in a way. Even Kacey Musgraves, I would argue, suffers from that a bit, despite her following now, and the "yee haw" stuff feels a bit like people are mocking her sometimes, even though she's clearly embraced it.

Edited June 27, 2019 by UYI

[Cranberry]

Scooter Braun now owns all of Taylor's masters.

Her response. Good for her. 

[UYI]

I wonder if there is a legal way for her to fight back and get those masters for herself. I assume there must be, and that she and her legal team are discussing it right now. 

[Neko]

Who is this guy, and why is Taylor saying Justin Bieber and Kanye West are "bullying" her?

[truthaboutluv]

22 minutes ago, Neko said:

Who is this guy, and why is Taylor saying Justin Bieber and Kanye West are "bullying" her?

Scooter Braun is one of the top managers in the music business. He discovered (along with Usher) and still manages to this day, Justin Bieber. And in recent years he's started managing Ariana Grande and word is Demi Lovato will be working with him too.

There's long been rumors of his being an asshole and manipulative. And people use Justin's being an emotional mess as proof of Scooter being this evil, awful manager, though I disagree with that because I think a lot of Bieber's shitty actions are on him. 

There's also been a lot of talk about how Scooter's forcing Ariana to do her current tour when it's clear she's emotionally not fit for it, with her still dealing with Mac Miller's death, the relationship saga with Pete Davidson, etc.

Personally I think Scooter sounds like every dickish manager who cares more about the money and sales than the well being of their artists. Sadly however, that doesn't make him unique in the entertainment industry. And it doesn't mean he's at fault for every dumb thing Justin Bieber has done. Artists have to be held accountable for their actions too. 

As for this latest saga with Taylor, sounds to me like who Taylor's beef is really with is Borcheta. I saw many comments on social media in response to the story with some wondering how is it with all her wealth and power, Taylor left her Masters with Borcheta. But clearly people don't read all the way through since she addresses this and states that essentially Borchetta threatened to hold her hostage in that she would only be able to buy one Master back at a time and in exchange for a new one. In other words, she would still have to make music for him. So she chose to walk away from them. And then he sold them to Scooter. 

Again, her issue here is with Borchetta because whatever he may be, I cannot fault Scooter for buying these Masters if he had the means to. That's just smart business. I think we can all well imagine just how valuable those Masters will end up being in years to come. I do understand Taylor's hurt over seeing something she created be sold away to someone she apparently doesn't really like. But again, her beef here is not with Scooter who only did what most business people would do. 

By the way, Justin Bieber posted a response to her on his Instagram and Scooter's wife did as well and the wife went in, stating much what many have said in the past of her playing victim and always accusing others of bullying her when she's one of the biggest bullies, etc.

I will say what most surprises me about all of this is that I was always under the impression that Taylor's parents, particularly her father. were fairly on their game in the deal they let her sign with Big Machine. Because I may be wrong but I think her dad works in Finance or something.

I know he works or worked for Merrill Lynch in a pretty high paying position. And I know being good in Finance doesn't make one a lawyer but I would think it'd still make him smart enough to understand the percentages and numbers and fine details.

And they were clearly wise enough to get her a percentage in the label itself and yet they didn't cover her for her Masters so that in the end Borcheta could push such a bullshit option at her that she chose to walk away from her Masters entirely? That's very surprising. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[Neko]

8 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Scooter Braun is one of the top managers in the music business. He discovered (along with Usher) and still manages to this day, Justin Bieber. And in recent years he's started managing Ariana Grande and word is Demi Lovato will be working with him too.

There's long been rumors of his being an asshole and manipulative and people use Justin's being an emotional mess as proof of Scooter being an awful person, though I disagree with that.  There's also been a lot of talk about how he's forcing Ariana to do her current tour when it's clear she's emotionally not fit for it, with her still dealing with Mac Miller's death, the relationship saga with Pete Davidson, etc.

Personally I think Scooter sounds like every dickish manager who cares more about the money and sales than the well being of their artists but sadly that doesn't make him unique in the entertainment industry. And it doesn't mean he's at fault for every dumb thing Justin Bieber has done. Artists have to be held accountable for their actions too. 

As for this latest saga with Taylor, sounds to me like who Taylor's beef is really with is Borcheta. I saw many comments on social media in response to the story with some wondering how is it with all her wealth and power, Taylor left her Masters with Borchetta. But clearly people don't read all the way through since she addresses this and states that essentially Borchetta threatened to hold her hostage in that she would only be able to buy one Master back at a time and in exchange for a new one. In other words, she would still have to make music for him. So she chose to walk away from them. And then he sold them to Scooter. 

Again, her issue here is with Borchetta because whatever he may be, I cannot fault Scooter for buying these Masters if he had the means to. That's just smart business. I think we can all well imagine just how valuable those Masters will end up being in years to come. I do understand Taylor's hurt over seeing something she created be sold away to someone she apparently doesn't really like. But again, her beef here is not with Scooter who only did what most business people would do. 

By the way, Justin Bieber posted a response to her on his Instagram and Scooter's wife did as well and the wife went in, stating much what many have said in the past of her playing victim and always accusing others of bullying her when she's one of the biggest bullies, etc.

I will say what most surprises me about all of this is that I was always under the impression that Taylor's parents, particularly her father. was fairly on their game in the deal they let her sign with Big Machine. Because I may be wrong but I think her dad works in Finance or something.

I know he works or worked for Merrill Lynch, in a pretty high paying position. And I know being good in Finance doesn't make one a lawyer but I would think it'd still make him smart enough to understand the percentages and numbers and fine details. And they were clearly wise enough to get her a percentage in the label itself and yet they didn't cover her for her Masters so that in the end Borcheta could push such a bullshit option at her that she chose to walk away from her Masters entirely? That's very surprising. 

Thanks for the explanation.  I admit, I saw Taylor's name, and the word "bullying", and my mind went blank, because there have been too many damn headlines with those words, and I just didn't care WHO was "bullying" her, now.  That situation sucks, but I'm sure she'll find a way out of it.  And then she'll write some scathing songs about the big meanie-heads who bought her catalog.  The world keeps spinning. 😜

Edited July 1, 2019 by Neko