Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

Ah yes, the scene before.  You'll be unsurprised to know I never rewatched that episode.  

 

 

 

In regards to the locusts, just consider who they were originally intended for. It might not be so weird after all when you consider the implications there.

 

So they were poisoned, I wondered and I wondered further still if Hizdahr was actually the one trying to have her poisoned, because he was urging her to eat them.  

 

Locusts in stories are usually never the stuff of good tidings, you know?  They tend be portents of destruction and doom.  

 

I thought Barristan was a goner for sure when he tried to attract Drogon's fire.  I also got a kick out of Dany deciding he sounded like someone's fussy grandfather when he was talking about the fighter needing a spear....and then she's gored because...she needed a spear.  

 

Season five

I could remember not really giving a shit about that scene, and it's because of post-Shireen-trauma which, in case no one has noticed, tends to manifest itself in me as white hot, flames-on-the-side-of-everyone's-faces rage, but in the show they include something that would only make sense if Jorah also believed that Dany was immune to all disease:  In the show he has gray scale and knows it.  He very purposefully takes her hand, so there's even a confusing moment of "Wait, did Jorah just decide to kill Dany there?!?"  There's almost no real way around this, but even more than usual, the show was just really hard on women in season five. Poor Sophie Turner.  About the only decent thing the show did for Sansa is that she won't give up trying to ...get...someone to save her.  Oy.  Argh.  

 

Thank you for the further casting info.  I'm currently sailing the WTF seas on that one. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

My assumption for season 6 re: that bit of casting (spoilered for speculation on season 6)

I'm betting they're going to have Sam make a stopover at home on his way to the Citadel

This is my favorite analysis of book vs show Dany flies off on Drogon: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/120985002501/why-what-you-just-watched-with-dany-was-totally

Totally safe to click on shimpy, I checked :) Only covers events that you have read.

Okay but Delta I have to ask you: do you really think season 5 of the show was good television? Sincerely asking, not trying to be snarky! Completely setting the books aside, so much of the season was just weak, I'm at a loss to understand what you liked about it. Can you talk a little bit about what scenes or storylines worked for you? (Again, independent of how they changed from the books.)

Spoilers for season 5:

"You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy." ::CRINGE:: Who on earth authorized that ?!

Erm, what exactly is that in response to? Edited January 25, 2016 by Delta1212

[Andeleisha]

Sorry Delta I think I might have extrapolated your last comment "the show is different, but I don't think it's necessarily any better or worse than what is in the books" to apply to the whole show, when in context maybe you were only referring to Daznek's Pit?

[Delta1212]

Yeah, that was in response to shimpy's comment about Daznak's Pit.

[ImpinAintEasy]

There was no way I could enjoy Daznak's Pit in the show the first time I saw the episode. I don't know how anyone could, considering what preceded it. I only rewatched the episode once(which is unusual for me) and I skipped over the scene that shall not be named. The show's Daznak was very underwhelming in how obvious and formulaic it played out. (Season 5)

The bad guys attack, Drogon saves the day, Dany rides a dragon for the first time. End credits. I'm still unsure how Tyrion/Jorah/Missandei/Daario weren't killed once Dany flew away. And yes, the CGI of the dragon riding was not very good, but I can forgive that given the budget and time constraints the show has. Overall, I'd give the scene a 5/10 compared to the book. For an episode 9 big moment, it fell flat for me, but I know many people still enjoyed it.

 

I'd also just have to echo everyone's frustrations with the whole Northern plot in season 5. It is by far the best material in the last two books,IMO, and so of course they decided to gut it.

It's clear the only thing D&D took from the Winterfell storyline in the books was Theon saving Jeyne, and they thought they'd ramp it up and have him save an actual Stark. Both of them claim that Theon is their favorite character, so it was a surprise to see them take away his POV and whole story arc in season 5 and only preserve the big moment. But I think that is all the writers seem to care about anymore. Just get to the big moment and skip over the meat of the story.

Edited January 26, 2016 by ImpinAintEasy

[Dev F]

That they choose to expand on certain characters in the show is baffling.

 

Well, at this point it's a little harder to assume that they're just inventing shit to waste time, since it's entirely possible that they're dramatizing material from the unreleased book 6. They'll have to start doing some of that next season, after all.

[nksarmi]

I'm so glad you are at the point where it makes total sense to start wondering if Hizzy boy is actually evil.  Season five

Seeing this guy cower in the jail cell as she (tiny little thing that she is) walks around him making him think she's going to feed him to a dragon only to let him off by just becoming her husband.  I know it wasn't the total deviation that Winterfell and Dorne were but it still very much earned a WTF from me.

Edited January 26, 2016 by nksarmi

[bobbybuilderton]

On the question of if season 5 was good or not: friend who has not read the books described it as simultaneously too slow and too fast. Let that mean whatever you want it to mean, but even show only viewers who pay attention picked up on the pacing issues caused from never bothering to plan ahead and clearly not giving more than five seconds of thought to any piece of dialogue. (I'm still more than a little upset about how Dave Hill got to write an episode)

[bobbybuilderton]

I had a post written about why I find the show's version of the pit much less entertaining than the book's, but accidentally deleted it. Here are bullet points:

 

Drogon rescues Daenerys=/=Daenerys tames Drogon. One has Daenerys as the object acted upon, the other has her as the one taking action. 

Drogon's presence==>Daenerys's connection to her identity as a Targaryen. 

I was in awe reading the scene, even as someone who kinda hates Daenerys (FFS, yes I'm sure you're immune to disease....)

Emilia Clarke legitimately looked half asleep to me.(Season 5 image spoilered for size)

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by bobbybuilderton

[Avaleigh]

Season 5 spoilers

 

I actually like the changes made to the character of Hizdahr. I thought the show made his motives seem more complex and I appreciated a man being in the position that a woman in Westeros is usually in when it comes to cementing an alliance.

[Alayne Stone]

Oh there's no doubt that show Hizzy and book Hizdar are two separate characters. One has questionable motives, the other genuinely cares about preserving some semblance of culture and protecting his people. I didn't mind the changes to show Hizdar. He, oddly enough, became sort of a character I was actually rooting for. They made him far more sympathetic.

 

Season 5 spoilers and also book 5 spoilers not safe for Shimpy:

Remember when everyone was sure Hizdar would be revealed as the Harpy? And were surprised when he saved Dany and half expected him to turn on her? And then BAM. He's dead. Dead as a doornail. Another missed opportunity there. It would have been fun having Saint Tyrion try to politik with a Harpy Hizdar thwarting his efforts.

 

It's weird because the CGI with Drogon on the ground look amazing, but once he took to the air with Dany on his back it was just ... ugh. I don't know. Emilia's deadpan expression might be part of it.

 

Some of the casting for Season 6 has me cautiously optimistic like (and these will all be season 6 casting spoilers):

Arthur Dayne

 

Some of them have me simultaneously excited and wary:

Crow's Eye. With the debacle that was Dorne last season, I'm wary about the upcoming Ironborn storyline returning to the forefront. Seems kind of late to be (re)introducing a major player.

 

And some of them just have me baffled and annoyed like the

Tarlys. Like ... just, why? Unless they somehow end up in King's Landing, I don't see what the point is. Just have Sam's storyline focus on Oldtown.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[ImpinAintEasy]

Season 6 casting(and possible plot) spoilers

I think the Tarly stuff has the potential to be Sand Snakes level bad, particularly with Dickon. I can just see him being used for comedy relief, similar to Mace and even Loras. I also am nervous about what they do with Euron. I am very intrigued by the actor they cast, even if he looks nothing like I imagined Euron. He looks eerily similar to Alfie, so he has that going for him. I just hope he is involved in Dany's story eventually, and not just some foil for Yarasha and possibly Theon. And yes, I am insanely excited about seeing Arthur Dayne and the Tower Of Joy.

Edited January 26, 2016 by ImpinAintEasy

[WindyNights]

They're so going to use (Season 6 casting and speculation)

Dickon to act douchey and hit on Gilly to try to sleep with her so we could see Sam becoming more of a macho man. : l

[Terra Nova]

I was baffled to how passive Dany was in the series: she and Missandei take turns being saved by the manly men.
(I think the focus on Dany taking Jorah's hand was a parallel when she banished him and backed away from him when he tried to touch her.)
In the series (season 5)

the Harpies are a force you cannot appease: after all that Dany and Hizzy tried to do they just kept on attacking them at every turn. Peace is impossible no matter what Dany does. She has no merit or fault and, in the end, no weiht in her own political arc.

In the book there is peace, a difficult one that leaves both parties unhappy (Jon says it's a good thing), something Dany fought for, but now she is sick and tired of this city of savages and whores and these are not her children! Then she 'abandons' them by choosing to save her other scaly child. And there is no magical connection, no Drogon in awe at his mom like some puppy: he tries to kill her and roast her. And she answers with equal violence,she tames this feral dragon and saves him despite Drogon being less than cooperative. She is an active player in her own story, not to talk about the symbolism!

 

I understand the difficulties of internal arcs on a visual medium and so on, but of Daenery's increasing loneliness and intolerance to Meereen nothing survives; in all her scenes she just drones on and on, with some occasional spewing of 'badass' lines like "I'm a Queen, not a politician!" and some abusing of poor Hizdahr zo Sansa (show!Hizzy is a precious young man who suffered at the hand of Dany and still tries his best to make everything work, so of course it had to end the way it did). What was her arc? To stop making mistakes and start listening to Tyrion?

And what's with Dany's expression in the show? She looked half-bored! 'Dragonriding... meh!' Compare that to the frankly a little bit disturbing (I put down the book just thinking 'am I reading what I'm reading?') "Yes yes do it do it take me take me!"

Edited January 26, 2016 by Terra Nova

[DigitalCount]

Season 5

I don't know. Daenerys' facial expression on the dragon didn't read as bored to me, it read as Emilia Clarke's enchanted expression. I feel like she had something similar when she was watching Drogo give his speech about going full Conan on Westeros. I guess the best word would be enraptured?

 

Also, I can't help but think that she should have been squinting tightly just because of how fast they must have been moving. No facial protection as they soar through the air? She shouldn't have been able to open her eyes.

Edited January 26, 2016 by DigitalCount

[Ashara Payne]

On the question of if season 5 was good or not: friend who has not read the books described it as simultaneously too slow and too fast. Let that mean whatever you want it to mean, but even show only viewers who pay attention picked up on the pacing issues caused from never bothering to plan ahead and clearly not giving more than five seconds of thought to any piece of dialogue. (I'm still more than a little upset about how Dave Hill got to write an episode)

I've described it that way to people too (too slow and yet too fast). I think the plot moves slowly but then things happen that don't make sense because there hasn't been the right buildup.

[Terra Nova]

@DigitalCount:

 

I guess you are right, but I always lamented the way Emilia Clarke has been directed since Season 2. In their effort to depict her as a badass they ended up making her completely impassive. It becomes difficult even to understand what emotions she is conveying.

Sometimes I rewatch Season 1 scenes and I'm always startled at seeing how much livelier that Daenerys was, and it's not the actress' fault. I like the burning eyes she has in 1x10 after the 'I swear to you that those who would harm you will die screaming'. The last we saw of that was probably the stare she has when she throws away the whip after the slaughter in Astapor. From then onwards it's just deadpan. As someone upthreads said, the finest acting is with the dragons.

[Mya Stone]

We have Season 6 threads for speculation and casting. If it doesn't refer directly to what shimpy's reading, please don't post it here.

[Haleth]

The more I read here and am reminded of season 5, the more I realize how much it sucked.  I'm this [] close to skipping the show until the books catch up.

[mac123x]

On the question of if season 5 was good or not: friend who has not read the books described it as simultaneously too slow and too fast. Let that mean whatever you want it to mean, but even show only viewers who pay attention picked up on the pacing issues caused from never bothering to plan ahead and clearly not giving more than five seconds of thought to any piece of dialogue. (I'm still more than a little upset about how Dave Hill got to write an episode)

 

I think part of that is their unnecessary pattern of "must have big stuff happen in episode 9".  It was really evident in season 4 with the endless meandering of the wildlings south of the wall, but season 5 had a lot of it too.  It just seems really weird to me that they'd stick with something so formulaic, considering they were willing to violate it with the Purple Wedding being episode 2.  Even in the DVD commentary for that episode, someone mentions that it was a nice change-up, because people wouldn't be expecting something so momentous that early in the season.  Well, yes, it was a nice change up, so do it again.

 

I'm torn on the differences between book!Meereen and show!Meereen.  On the one hand, the show cut all the political intrigue and danger from outside forces (Yunkai, Tolos, New Ghis) and made Dany into a simple conqueror of Slaver's Bay.  No fall-out from that besides the Sons of the Harpy insurrection.  Nothing about how the peace after conquest was a lot harder than the conquest itself.  Also, Dany never had any self-doubts.  She'd conquered Slaver's Bay but "this is not my home." 

 

On the other hand, I thought most of Meereen was boring as hell in the books, so I'm glad they didn't try to translate it to screen.  It would have made the pacing problems that much worse.

[SeanC]

I think part of that is their unnecessary pattern of "must have big stuff happen in episode 9".  It was really evident in season 4 with the endless meandering of the wildlings south of the wall, but season 5 had a lot of it too.  It just seems really weird to me that they'd stick with something so formulaic, considering they were willing to violate it with the Purple Wedding being episode 2.  Even in the DVD commentary for that episode, someone mentions that it was a nice change-up, because people wouldn't be expecting something so momentous that early in the season.  Well, yes, it was a nice change up, so do it again.

The delaying of the Battle of Castle Black is the only real instance I can think of where I thought the "episode 9" thinking really altered the story's pacing.  In pretty much all other respects, the timing of stories is largely like in the books (assuming that said arc has begun).  402 was different because they were adapting one book over two seasons, which necessitated changes.  I can't think of anything in Season 5 that I thought, from a pacing POV, should have been in a noticeably different location.

Edited January 26, 2016 by SeanC

[vibeology]

I would have preferred more space between (season 5 spoilers ahead) 

Shireen's death and Dany's big moment and I think Stannis' story needed another beat to better show the audience how Stannis makes that awful choice. But I also feel like the solution to that problem would have been to slow the Stannis story down and not get there yet rather than shuffle it earlier. Either way, I do think the writers weren't driven by "its episode nine, lets do something shocking" so much as they were getting close to the end of the story, didn't want Shireen's death taking up space in the finale and didn't want to put off the conclusion of the storyline for the first few episodes of the next season, because that sort of thing creates strange pacing too, ties up actors for longer and costs money.

[netlyon2]

The more I read here and am reminded of season 5, the more I realize how much it sucked.  I'm this [] close to skipping the show until the books catch up.

*waves to Haleth from the Shores of Showblivion* Come, join us!

Seriously, though, I stopped watching after Season 4 when I realized that I ended every episode irritated and frustrated. I don't need that from a TV show; I teach teenagers for a living!

[Terra Nova]

It's sometimes easy for the showrunners to make fit some big events for episode nine through some 'cheating': with the battle at Castle Black delayed for a whole season, we got a large chunk of ASoS storyline pushed back to season 5; since the election of the Lord Commander couldn't be completely skipped, they rushed through it and then, in order to fit the roasting for Episode 9 so to be done with Stannis this past season, they just removed 85% of his Dance storyline and boom! We're perfectly in time again.

 

And the effects of that Castle Black episode affected badly also that incredibly crammed Season 4 finale, which was reduced to 'and now let's jump from one character to the other for their crowning SHOCKING scene!'

 

The same happened with Daenerys: they, I believe, felt something uplifting was needed after the Red Wedding, so we got the unintentional 'white savior acclaimed by the brown people' scene. Then, after deciding for whatever reason to shorten the siege in Meereen, they were forced to start using already Dance material in Season 4, while other storylines were firmly stuck in Storm territory. Then we got another whole season of Dany in Meereen, but with so much of the plot cut out that her arc stretched really thin. All to keep the Daznak's Pit scene in Episode 9. As a result we got 16 episodes of Meereen with, what? A fourth of the original material?

 

The other trick they love to use is the space-and-time bending: Littlefinger's Tardis or his jetpack are pretty known jokes in the fandom. This way is pretty easy to rush through some storyline and then slow down again according to what plot points you want to hit and when, but it's far from a smooth pace.

 

My opinion on this is that Feast and Dance should have never been combined in a single season (either you start with them at the end of Season 4 already, or you let most of the arcs continue in Season 6). You can do it, of course, but you have to chop huge chunks of plot, ending with some bare list of plot points to be hit. The they pick the most shocking ones and push them at the end of the season, and then work backwards to fill the blank spaces from episode 2 to episode 6. That's why this last series felt so dragged and so rushed at the same time. And now we see from Season 6 casting spoilers that a lot of the cut material is 'coming back through the window' anyway. Wouldn't it have been better to have it in its intended place, if you're going to include it anyway (the time costraint used as excuse for all the cutting last season being now clearly a lie)?

Edited January 27, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

And now we see from Season 6 casting spoilers that a lot of the cut material is 'coming back through the window' anyway. Wouldn't it have been better to have it in its intended place, if you're going to include it anyway (the time costraint used as excuse for all the cutting last season being now clearly a lie)?

 

I think this is due to D&D being given an 8th season, which they didn't know until last summer?  Suddenly they had 10 more hours and needed some of the cut characters and storylines to fill the time.

(Is that a spoiler?)  As bad as seasons 4 and 5 were, going back to fill in the blanks sounds like a bad idea.  Remember Nikki and Paulo?

[Ashara Payne]

I think time is a factor in that they haven't enough time to clearly think up how best to tell the story.

[Delta1212]

I don't think the estimated number of seasons they're planning on doing really counts as a spoiler. I also don't think they were "given" an extra season. I think they revised their estimate of how many seasons they needed after all.

They've had the same rough estimate for years, well past any number HBO had guaranteed them, and what non-binding statements HBO had made put them squarely in the "You keep making them, we'll keep paying for them" camp once it was apparent how big of a hit the show was.

I think D&D plotted out how many seasons they roughly thought they'd need and built the show around that, and then once the deadline started closin in, they realized they needed an extra season beyond that estimate, which certainly may have contributed to a few things being unbalanced timing wise.

[Delta1212]

I think time is a factor in that they haven't enough time to clearly think up how best to tell the story.

This is a big thing, I think, and why I tend not to be as critical of the showrunners' abilities even when I'm critical of the end result. This show is not a typical show. The production is a monster.

They're filming dozens of characters in a variety of countries across multiple continents generally with 3-4 units filming simultaneously, and even with that, they're usually still polishing the visual effects for the later episodes when the season premieres. And then they have to turn around and start writing the scripts almost immediately, and cast the roles for the new season, because filming has to start a bare couple of months after the season ends in order to have the next season ready for the premiere date. It's the reason they've given for why they can't do more than ten episodes in a season, and I don't doubt that the tight schedule really interferes with plotting out the show properly. Sometimes they get lucky and nail something on the first pass, and sometimes they probably needed an extra month to mull over some decisions before going forward, except that would have stalled the machinery of this giant engine they've built.

Even without certain comments that indicate it is probably the case, I'd have been shocked if either of them had had time to read any of the books cover to cover in the last couple of years.

And I think that contributes to the major disconnect between the book and the show, which goes back a bit to "the show is the version of the story that everyone talks about having read, rather than the one that's actually on the page." There is a fair bit of A Song of Ice and Fire that is character driven, and while there is some occasional bending of a character's actions for the sake of plot, a lot of the events fall out naturally from prior characterization. The show, it seems tries to plot out the season around the big plot events they need to hit, and then fill in the characterization around that, and this can leave some of it a little threadbare at times, or lead to inconsistencies when something is changed or the foundation hadn't been properly laid for it.

I think some of the slowness of Martin's writing as he continues is figuring out how to get his characters where he needs them in a way that is consistent with those characters and who and where they are and where they've come from previously, and the more history he builds up, the more there is to deal with in tackling that goal.

The show has had some of the same problems, I think, but can't take three or four years between seasons to figure it out, and they're more willing to sacrifice the character stuff than the plot points, which I suppose does make some sense from a "we need to get to the end point" perspective even if it makes a lot of things that should be really cool turn out hollow for want of proper emotional investment and pay off.

[WSmith84]

@ Terra Nova

 

I think that the decision to leave the battle for Castle Black till episode 9 is actually one of the worst decisions that the show ever made. Jon's escape from the Wildlings was rendered pointless, the NW looked like idiots for not sending people to the villages south to bring them to the Wall, Sam looked like a moron for taking Gilly to Moles Town, Stannis story was put on brakes to wait for the Wall to be ready.... And there was the god-awful filler they created for Jon to do (which they dragged Bran and co. into as well). Having the battle early in the season would have solved much of that, and given Stannis' and Jon's season 5 stuff more room to breathe as some of it (like Jon's election) could have been slotted into season 4.

 

I kind of feel the same as the Arya/Hound scenes in season 4. Don't get me wrong, I love those two characters together, but I don't really think most of their scenes added much character development (and definitely no plot development); having the Hound get wounded in the tavern fight in episode 1 and 'die' soon after, with Arya heading to Braavos, might have been a better choice in terms of pacing.

[stillshimpy]

So next up is an incredibly long Jon chapter, that I admit to stalling on reading.  I do find Jon fairly interesting, but very frequently I've been finding that when Martin's chapters run quite that long, that he's often just gotten carried away with descriptions and unnecessary detailing and that he has a tendency to be very repetitive in what he is noting.  It's rarely an action-oriented reason for why a chapter runs quite that long.  

 

Sorry guys, that's the hold up.  Every time I pick up the book and contemplate diving in I see the page and character count on that chapter and just want to do almost anything else.  Seriously, yesterday I chose painting prep over that looming beast of a chapter.  

 

I truly get the irony of someone as prone to going on and on as I am saying this, but the man is a complete stranger to brevity.  

 

My working theory is not that D&D lacked the necessary time to read the books and just kept reaching for summaries: because realistically that's going to be someone's job.  An assistant, a coordinator, etc.  will read the books and summarize plot progression.  I know on BSG they had a person who was in charge of continuity and a lot of show do, for as much as they are mocked for it.  Usually those people are superfans within a genre, so most shows have a good track record with getting someone who will break down overly wordy material into bullet points.  

 

The problem becomes that Martin's material still won't lend itself to that in some instances and I've noticed, that aspect of the stories has gone haywire in the last two books.  The first book is a relatively tight tale.  By the time Feast rolls around Martin is well into creating detail for the sake of creating an entire world vs. creating detail to support character actions.  

 

Dude is making Dickens look like a short story teller.  

 

Sam looked like a moron for taking Gilly to Moles Town

 

To this day one of the more infuriating things the show did.  "Go be a washerwoman in a brothel filled with escapees from Tim Burton's rendering of Sleepy Hollow, what could go wrong?"  Argh.  

Edited January 27, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Trisan]

Edited cause I misunderstood, thinking Shimpy had read the chapter.

So, spoilers from that Jon chapter !

Actually, there's one tidbit I found interesting in that one :

Val (and so Wildling's culture's) warnings about Greyscale... who knows if extreme cold doesnt "wake" the disease or kill some of Shireen's natural defenses (that she would have developed surviving it when a child), rendering her contagious again... They really dont need that up there ! ^^

Edited January 27, 2016 by Trisan

[Terra Nova]

When they made clear they were aiming for seven season, i.e. immediately after Season 4, it seemed they were given no choice. Some time later some big boss at HBO publicly stated they would have liked ten seasons or more. Then the they re-settled for eight season. The 'lie' is that at first they implied it wasn't their choice, which we know now is not the case. I also have problems believing they knew from the beginning that they were going for seven seasons: the choice to adapt Storm in two seasons would be baffling otherwise. They were going for one book one season up to the end of Storm, and they never truly planned ahead. Had they thought of seven seasons, they would have started cutting much earlier. In this case Renly could have been cut, the Ironborn too, Dorne too (and this was the plan until Oberyn became a fan favorite), Slaver Bay may have been reduced to two cities and so on. It's not a mistery their goal was to film the Red Wedding and they were unsure the show would have even reached that point.

I understand perfectly how they cannot film more than ten episodes per season, and I recognize the schedule is incredibly tight, but most of this stems from their decision to turn the show into their creature and their alone. I said so several pages ago, opposed to the first seasons they are now directing and writing most episodes, apart from casting and production. No one is forcing them to do so. They wanted to carve a name for themselves from the show and of course this requires time and dedication. But when you realize the show is getting bigger, that's the time to hire more people and start delegating micro-managing to someone else, not to put your hands in everything from start to finish. 

@Triskan:
I think Shimpy has not read that chapter yet ^^'

Edited January 27, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

To this day one of the more infuriating things the show did.  "Go be a washerwoman in a brothel filled with escapees from Tim Burton's rendering of Sleepy Hollow, what could go wrong?"  Argh.  

 

Not to mention that Sam knew that there were Wildlings south of the Wall that were attacking villages. And leaving Gilly, a woman who, until she fled with Sam, had probably never left Craster's Keep before, in a strange village with strange people with whom she has nothing in common? What on Earth was anyone thinking when they greenlit that particular plot point?

[Terra Nova]

To make my point clearer:

 

Let's assume that some of the most changed storyline of the past season were altered because of time constraint (in the sense that 'we have 30 episodes left, there's no time to properly adapt everything from the book' - that's what I meant this morning with my comment -): the results are... meh, but understandable, you have to start chopping mercilessly at some point - see Aegon -.

New season's spoilers start to leak and surprise! That story arc that was so altered is now coming back.

My question is: why? Because now you still have 30 episodes left, having gained one season but having already filmed one. Clearly the time constraint wasn't the true reason.

 

I'm making a spoiler free example even if it's not the most apt: Sam was steadily parked at the Wall with a, I think we can all agree, pretty thin and boring storyline. We all concluded that Oldtown had been excised, and I was fine with that: you don't introduce a whole new location for a single second-tier character with only three seasons left. And what happens at the end of Season 5? (S5 spoiler)

Sam backs away from his duty to the Watch in favor of protecting Gilly - nevermind he made the opposite choice in 'The Watchers on the Wall' - and goes to effing Oldtown! In a way that's completely opposite from his book counterpart! He even adds that he's going to bang all the way to the Reach and beyond!

And when this was scripted, the plan was still seven seasons. So yeah, they could've sent Sam away after Jon's election and let him reappear next season, thus leaving precious screen time for other storylines that really needed it.

 

And now we have (S6 spoilers: broad strokes of the story arcs):

 

the Ironborn, Euron, Asha, the Kingsmoot, the Riverlands, the siege at Riverrun, Edmure and Blackfish I think, the Northern Lords or at least Karstarks and Umber (this means the whole Karstark's betrayal may be transposed, an arc that would take I would say at least three episodes!), Jon taking over the military campaign of Stannis, the 'true' Battle of Ice included, Jaime and probably Brienne in said Riverlands, the Brotherhood without Banners, the Elderly Brother, Randyll Tarly with a bunch of invented characters, the female boob-showing counterpart of Moquorro/Benerro, Shae haunting Tyrion... wth?

 

All things straight from past books that were dropped. in some case, since Season 3...

Edited January 27, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Delta1212]

Oh, I never thought Oldtown was excised. (Season 5 discussion)

They made reference to the Citadel library and had a whole scene between Sam and Stannis that served no purpose except to name-check Randall Tarly.

Just from things they were bringing up in the season, I was pretty confident we were going to get Oldtown, meet Sam's father and get R+L=J in season 6, and that was while the episodes were still airing and before any production news had started filtering out. Season 5 had a lot of scenes and pieces of dialogue that were clearly references to what's coming on the show, so none of that is going to surprise me.

Also, yes, they gained a season but already filmed a season, true, but they've also moved trough a bunch of content in season 5. They may be circling back around to do some things that it looked like they've cut, but it might seem to them that if they're going an extra season, they'll have more time for some of that where getting through that content and getting through the pieces they got through in season 5. It's not like they're starting from the exact same place they were starting from at the end of season 4 and still only have 30 episodes left. They may not currently have more episodes left right now than they thought they had at the end of last season, but they're further along in the story which mean less stuff to cram into those 30 episodes they have left in order to get to the end point.

That being the case, maybe they felt there was room to include a few things they might have left out otherwise after all.

[SeanC]

I don't think they really "gained" a season.  There is no way that Season 5 was written with a seven-season show in contemplation.  It seems more like the stuff that they moved around was to allow those stories to flow into their TWOW-and-afterwards points.

[Delta1212]

I don't think they really "gained" a season. There is no way that Season 5 was written with a seven-season show in contemplation. It seems more like the stuff that they moved around was to allow those stories to flow into their TWOW-and-afterwards points.

Which I kind of agree on. I think they hit the "we need eight seasons" point while writing season 5. It has a lot more end-game set up than pretty much any of the other seasons, and I think in setting that stuff up is about when they must have realized that they needed another season beyond what they'd been anticipating in order to pull it off.

[Terra Nova]

March 2014: Season 4 just started, script for Season 5 are already in an advanced state:

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2014/03/11/game-of-thrones-7-seasons
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2014/03/game-of-thrones-breaking-bad

 

March 2015: D&D still dead set on seven seasons, Season 5 is airing and pre-production for Season 6 is already at full speed. HBO president is pushing for more - clearly going public about this to force their hand -:

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/03/11/game-thrones-end

 

Eight seasons are announced around July of last year. So pick what you like: either D&D lie to the press or they play the shy maid to get more money. Keep in mind that Lombardo wouldn't have given such interviews if they already had a deal for an 8th season.

 

ETA: and let's be clear, I for one considered the seven-season-plan a folly, and I still mantain that eight seasons will cause some storyline to be incredibly hacked/rushed, but the show is lost on me since Season 4 finale and Season 5 was the perfect validation of all my fears.

 

I'm sorry if this is OT - I fear it is ^^' -.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Andeleisha]

This is a big thing, I think, and why I tend not to be as critical of the showrunners' abilities even when I'm critical of the end result. This show is not a typical show. The production is a monster.

They're filming dozens of characters in a variety of countries across multiple continents generally with 3-4 units filming simultaneously, and even with that, they're usually still polishing the visual effects for the later episodes when the season premieres. And then they have to turn around and start writing the scripts almost immediately, and cast the roles for the new season, because filming has to start a bare couple of months after the season ends in order to have the next season ready for the premiere date. It's the reason they've given for why they can't do more than ten episodes in a season, and I don't doubt that the tight schedule really interferes with plotting out the show properly. Sometimes they get lucky and nail something on the first pass, and sometimes they probably needed an extra month to mull over some decisions before going forward, except that would have stalled the machinery of this giant engine they've built.

 

But like..."it's complicated" is actually not a reason or an excuse when the thing is "your job." (Not that I think you are suggesting this, but they certainly do from time to time.) Especially now that the show is so popular, it has essentially an unlimited budget, they could hire as many people as they need to get things done correctly. All of the the things that go into filming (location scouting, sets, casting, costuming, etc) get done, and, they get done well. Almost everything we see on screen is an absolute masterpiece, the casting on this show is some of the best I've ever seen, the actors are wonderful even with silly lines. It's just the writing that is bad. And I'm not denying that writing (which drives all of the above things) is a more involved process, but that is all the more reason for them to get their shit together. They have not lowered their standards when it comes to all the other things that makes GoT such a high production value show.  

 

And the thing that makes the writing so bad usually is not the dialogue of the scenes themselves. It almost always comes back to the logic: why did they slow down one plot, or speed up another, or send a character to a totally different place. And it just BOGGLES MY MIND that they apparently don't think these things through. Like have they never heard of a story board? MY KINGDOM FOR SOME POST IT NOTES! I would give ANYTHING to facilitate the meeting in the writers room when they are outlining the season. 

 

We are reverse engineering their intentions and decisions from what we see on screen and their interviews. It always comes back to: either they are genuinely clueless, or they just don't care that much. Those are both bad, and they both mean that this adaptation is less wonderful than it might have been. That's the tragedy of it all. I can't speak for everyone else but I know that is where my anger and frustration with this show come from :( 

[Audreythe2nd]

And the thing that makes the writing so bad usually is not the dialogue of the scenes themselves. It almost always comes back to the logic: why did they slow down one plot, or speed up another, or send a character to a totally different place.

 

I realize this isn't a show thread, so I'm going to try to connect it back to the books. AFFC and ADwD present a challenge because half the characters in one aren't in the other and vice versa. Showrunners obviously had to come up with creative ways to prioritize, re-order, shorten and consolidate storylines because of this. I mean, if GRRM himself had to split up his own damn books by geography because it was getting so long, then obviously a TV show (that can't really do this) is going to have to find other ways to re-organize. For instance:

Daenerys, Jon, Cersei, Tyrion have all had their AFFC and ADwD stories. Jaime, Brienne, Bran, and the Ironborn have not. Next season, based on filming spoilers, it looks like they are going to reverse it: the characters who didn't have their book-counterpart AFFC/ADwD stories will have them, and they will push into whatever resolutions can be found in Winds. The characters who are already caught up will have slowed down, reversed, or fabricated arcs (for example, I kind of doubt Tyrion ruling in Meereen is a thing that happens in the books, and Dany is probably slowed down if they have her spending the entire season with the Dothraki). Why did they do this? Probably lack of airtime to do justice to each character's story. I have little doubt that they actually wanted to combine all AFFC and ADwD arcs into one season but it probably proved impossible with the amount of time they had available.

 

And it just BOGGLES MY MIND that they apparently don't think these things through. Like have they never heard of a story board? MY KINGDOM FOR SOME POST IT NOTES! I would give ANYTHING to facilitate the meeting in the writers room when they are outlining the season.

 

 

I distinctly remember reading an interview or hearing a commentary where either David or Dan talked about the storyboards they had in their office for each character, and that they had run out of different coloured post-it notes and had to go to polka-dot to distinguish them because there are so many distinct character arcs. So yeah, it sounds specifically like they've been story boarding, meticulously.

 

I mean, I'm not saying anyone has to like the quality of the lines written, but criticizing their long term planning isn't really something I'm willing to do at this point considering:

a) We haven't seen Season 6

b) We haven't seen Season 7

c) We haven't seen Season 8

d) We haven't read Winds

e) We haven't read a Dream of Spring

f) We don't technically know what those last two books are supposed to contain in terms of story, and at this point there's only like 3-4 people in the world who actually know

Edited January 28, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so that was actually a chapter with a lot of merit when it comes to story action:  

 

1. Jon's bargain with Tormund, to allow 4000 wildlings through the gate is a pretty massive undertaking. 

2. Stannis being willing to accept the Wildlings into the realm is the reason that Jon is willing to recognize him as kind, which wildly problematic (understatement) 

3. Val calling Shireen That Dead Girl, was very, very startling.  So the Grey Scale is just dormant within her?  More and more problematic.  

season five

although it actually explains why Martin is said to have signed off on burning Shireen in the series, because as soon as that little detail was added, it was clear she wouldn't be allowed to live

 

4.  The Freaking Weeper is among them?  The person who's been cutting the eyes out of Rangers.  Oh...Jebus, Jon.  Since I do know roughly where this story is heading, it's becoming easier and easier to understand the POV of the Brothers who turn on him so completely.  

 

It's actually really difficult to read that and completely understand why there is such a pushback form every man on the Wall.  The inclusion of The Weeper even made me flinch.   It's still more difficult to read Jon knowing that it might all be headed in that direction, as he recalls Melisandre's warning. 

 

It was nice to see that Val is as attached to Monster as she clearly is.  It's actually a lot easier to like some of the Wildlings than it is the people of the Kingdoms (Seylse).  Also, the suggestion that Shireen is actually in some sort of Death Stasis makes Patchface's constant attendance of her that much creepier, since that guy gives every indication of being a reanimated dead thing with an agenda. 

 

Onwards to Cersei, I guess.  

[Delta1212]

Yeah, Patchface is creepy and there are plenty of theories about him, up to and including him secretly being The Great Other.

I also think greyscale is going to wind up being significant later in the story. Season 5 saw a lot of end-game stuff getting name checked and more set up for future seasons than has been typical of the show. The fact that grey scale suddenly became a thing, and not strictly in a way that was directly following the events of the books makes me think that it's being set up to play a larger role in the plot, and I won't be surprised if there's a grey plague in Winds.

[Ashara Payne]

Patchface discussion:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/66847-patchface-prophesies/

[bobbybuilderton]

The grey death sleeps, only to wake again... the maesters are sometimes referred to as grey sheep... greyscale is a disease manufactured to get rid of dragons that ended up in humans, confirmed.

[WindyNights]

You know for a guy who doesn't inspire much in the way of goodwill and loyalty, Stannis has got two of the most heroic characters on his team and actively rooting for him.

Anyways there was a mention on Reddit that there is a lot of references between Stannis and stone.

Stan means stone and Is means Ice. Shireen has a stone disease. Stannis has a cold and stony personality.

Also Jon literally "He is stone and she is flame" and he's literally supposed to wake a stone dragon

Edited January 28, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

Just a nitpick: Martin has no say in how they adapt the series. He himself said he doesn't have the contractual power to do so and that they could even end up the series with an alien invasion, he cannot oppose them (spoiler: we can bar spaceships from ASoIaF, dammit). So I wouldn't rely on some character's death to infer how, or even if, said character will die in the books.

I am quite skeptical about taking what Val says at face value: this is a culture where they don't name children in fear they will die and they are not the most tender of people. So I can see them killing the sick on the spot out of self-preservation. I also somewhat tend to give credit to the opinion of the rest of Westeros, the one with written records. Greyscale is quite common on the Iron Islands and other damp places, if children are still contagious someone would have noticed. There is another adult character with the disease heading straight to Westeros, he's much more likely to be the patient Zero of an epidemic. Because that's clearly what Westeros needs at this point - and aliens from outer space of course -.

Everything that comes out from Patchface ends up being prophetic, so I get worried as soon as he enters the scene... creepy bugger.

 

But the scariest thing for me in this chapter was Tormund's mention that his son died and reanimated in the span of few hours: this seems to be the first time in the books that dead people rise again so quickly. So yeah, I'm truly disturbed at the thought of going to bed in a tent you share with someone else with the risk your pal develops a pair of blue torchlights overnight. It's just a tiny less creepy than (not for Shimpy)

dead things in the woods, dead things in the water

Edited January 28, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Delta1212]

Terra Nova,

I've been skipping around a bit based on what I was interested in reading, so I may have missed it, but doesn't JonCon's greyscale not get revealed until his chapter that shimpy hasn't gotten to yet?

[Terra Nova]

@ Delta,

 

No, the greyscale is revealed at the end of his first chapter, after the Golden Company declares for Aegon; "then Lord Connington would die content", or something like that. In the next chapter of his, when they take the Griffin's Roost, it is shown that he bathes regularly with sour wine but the black is spreading veryquickly. But it's good that people check, it's easy to spoil something now that we are almost at the end :)

Edited January 28, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

I wonder how a child north of the Wall (or an adult for that matter) could even contract greyscale.  I suppose a trader from Essos might bring it on a ship, but the likelihood of coming in contact with a carrier would be awfully small.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Haleth

[mac123x]

Val calling Shireen That Dead Girl, was very, very startling.  So the Grey Scale is just dormant within her?  More and more problematic.

I really don't want Val to be right, because it plays in to the irritating trope of "science [the maesters] is wrong and superstition is right.“

 

 

The Freaking Weeper is among them?  The person who's been cutting the eyes out of Rangers.  Oh...Jebus, Jon.  Since I do know roughly where this story is heading, it's becoming easier and easier to understand the POV of the Brothers who turn on him so completely. 

 

The Weeper isn’t in Tormund’s group.  Jon was answering the hypothetical question “would you let even the Weeper through too?”  His answer of “yes, if he agrees to defend the wall; we can’t pick and choose” was morally correct but practically unworkable.  He might let the Weeper through, and the Weeper might even agree to defend the wall, but it wouldn’t be long before someone shanked him, making the tensions between the NW and the Wildlings all that much worse.

Edited January 28, 2016 by mac123x