Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Delta1212]

And "Kill his men" was my third, final (and by far weakest) "Wow, this is depressing" reaction to the books. Beyond this point, I was committed and stopped questioning my choice to read this series, even when (obviously) worse stuff happened.

[Avaleigh]

Well, Ned's been ambushed and even though it turns out Jaime did not do the thing that so cemented my dislike of him -- Skewering Jory through the eye -- he somehow managed to make it worse.  In the series at least Jaime is willing to risk his own neck and doesn't just saunter away with a casual "Kill his men" .  

 

It's funny though, my attachment to Jory is primarily because of the way the actor played him, although he is rendered well on the page, there was just such an earnest quality to Jory that I found really sweet.  He just did not get sarcasm, at all, on the screen and it both cracked me up and won me over.  Plus, I do have to hand it to the show runners, that was a vicious detail to add in to the scene -- the information about nearly losing an eye and then having Jaime stab him to death through it.  

It's really difficult in a medium that depicts so many violent acts to make one death matter on an emotional level. I think we're all pretty desensitized to depictions of death or murder, so managing to elicit a "Nooooo!" in a scene that is clearly a set up for slaughter was a challenge. 

 

But book Jaime actually seems slimier in that moment and that really surprised me.  I never thought I'd come to the point where I could view Jaime's actions in the street as being closer to honorable than some of his alternatives.  It just wasn't going to occur to me that he freaking left the scene, swanned off, stage left and tossed off a "Kill his men" as he departed.  Ew.  

I'm one of those insane people who even has some sympathy for book Cersei so I'm curious to know what you think once you get a better look. I also like the changes that the show made to her character. Both versions fascinate me for different reasons. Book Cersei is funnier though to me no doubt about it.

 

I'm in pain. I want to talk about Jaime with you but have to patiently wait. ;-)

[ambi76]

Interesting to know that book Cersei just remains pure villain from start to finish.

 

She doesn't stay the same throughout. She gets worse and worse. Just the starting point is already different in the books, I would say. Cersei had always a great fan following despite/because of her villainy, but it went too over the top for many fans later, and they found that boring/unrealistic like you say, while I for my part was cackling with horror/glee.

 

I don't know if I'd have found Book Dany interesting without having seen Screen Dany.  I'm guessing not until subsequent re-reads.

 

Heh. I'm still not very interested in Dragon lady myself. Took some supplemental material from GRRM to get me even slightly interested in the "Targaryens" as a dynasty at all.

 

Jaime is a piece of art erm ... I mean shit and really a bit of a background character in AGOT.

 

I'm in pain. I want to talk about Jaime with you but have to patiently wait. ;-)

 

Feels Avaleigh's pain.

Edited June 26, 2015 by ambi76

[Avaleigh]

One thing I will say about Jory and Jaime on the show--

 

I remember reading a post once where the poster compared Jaime to the popular high school quarterback who could actually be really cool if you were talking to him one on one but then would turn into kind of a dick when he was around his head cheerleader girlfriend and that's what I'm reminded of in the scene where Jaime and Jory are getting along when they're reminiscing about a battle they were in together with Thoros of Myr. It's a moment where Jaime and Jory are able to bond over the fact that they were on the same side at one point and that they both understand each other in a way that only other warriors can. I love that we get these glimpses of what Jaime can sometimes be when he's not caught up with his family issues.

 

I find the Targaryens interesting and love the nuggets that are dropped about various ancestors of Dany's.

 

I go back and forth with Dany. Sometimes I think her character is totally compelling and other times she both bores and annoys me. It's the same on the show. I don't have issues with Emilia Clarke's acting though the way it seems like many people do. I think she's mostly going with the direction she's being given.

[benteen]

I also enjoyed the Show-only scene between Jaime and Jon Snow in the second episode of Season 1.  Jaime is being a dick to Jon but the advice he offers him is realistic and it could be interpreted as helpful.

Edited June 26, 2015 by benteen

[nksarmi]

I think you all are being so cute about patiently waiting to talk about Jamie because if I had to answer the question of "name a character that grew on you" question it would be Jamie. 

 

Now I have had some characters who I liked a lot at the start, have some of their shine wear off over time.  I would say Dany falls into that category for me.  I loved her prior to Meereen and I am still interested in her, but that interest in waning. 

[Protar]

Interesting to know that book Cersei just remains pure villain from start to finish.  I guess I'll see what there is to be seen about that, but I can't say the concept appeals to me.  Villains with no shading tend to be boring, but if so many liked her, I guess that can't be the case.  

 

Well there's only so much I can say at this point, but there is depth to Cersei. But depth =/= sympathetic. There's the odd sympathetic moment for her, but if you're looking for Show!Cersei here you won't find her. You wouldn't be the first to prefer show!Cersei, a lot of people consider that one of the areas the show improves upon the book. I'm not one of them, I love her as a villain, but I can see where you and others are coming from.

[magdalene]

Book Cersei is  a horrible human being and narcissist.  And the more I learn about her the more I loathe her. Getting into her head is making me loathe her more.  There have been characters in the books that I really liked in the beginning and that have  disappointed me over time.  GRRM is very good at doing this. He is also really good at eliciting the opposite reaction. I remember how I hated Jaime in the first book. I thought this guy is such a villain.  GRRM is  a tricksy writer who plays with perception so well.

[Triskan]

Shimpy, a little question : if I say Dolorous Edd, do you know (in the show) who I'm referring too ? 

 

He's quite a minor character, and it's highly probable that he's been lost to many on screen, but I cant wait till you meet him in the books !

 

(I hope that's not considered as a spoiler, I mean it more in a teasing way, but if it would be better to hide it, just let me know !)

Edited June 26, 2015 by Triskan

[stillshimpy]

I think you guys are being so incredibly patient and careful and I really appreciate it.  

 

I don't consider a heads up about a character to look forward to a spoiler at all, but I don't have any idea who Dolores Edd is, Triskan.  

 

So I referred to this a little while back, but from a couple of added scenes -- like Cersei going to Ned's office in the Tower of the Hand -- I got the impression that Cersei didn't hate Ned on any personal level.  Perhaps she even admired his dogged devotion to honor, but she had plans...blah blah blah.  That was back in the first season and I got a PM from someone that wasn't horrible or anything, but did basically tell me I had no idea what I was talking about...and Lena Headey was not playing Cersei correctly.  The poster put that down to Headey not choosing to read the books.  

 

Did she decide to not read the books altogether?  Or did she eventually read the books and the show took her in a different direction?  Whichever it is, I can sort of understand the decision, specifically because it's clear from how many comments people have made about changing their mind about, or growing to like Jaime, that they do expand upon and give Jaime layers.   I get that you're all also saying that she's an entertaining villain, but I can see the wisdom behind making that story call. 

 

For one thing, the series ends up being a bit villain heavy in later seasons.  For another, whatever development they've give Book Jaime, it hasn't translated onto the screen as much at it might have otherwise...although even I felt for the guy when his freaking daughter died in front of his face, right after she said, "I'm glad I'm your daughter."  and then proceeds to have brain bleed and die.  Prior to that, I didn't really think they'd improved him....or rather...added much insight into him.   Plus, they had him do at least one thing that isn't really the stuff of any kind of redemption.  

 

But beyond that, HBO can get more than a little bit exploitative of women.  There's also a lot of violence against women.  Plus, I already know where Lysa Arryn is heading, I also know what will happen to Cat.  Marg is depicted as being sexually manipulative.  Just saying that onscreen depicting Cersei as pure villain might have tipped the balance of the show into "That's kind feeling anti-women, guys. "   Cersie is villainous enough, but at least she has reasons that aren't just "I'm evil.  I've always been evil.  Evil is fun." 

 

On the screen, you lose so much background, so many things, it seems like it was probably a good call to add more depth or layers wherever possible. 

 

Someone asked what lands I'm looking forward to reading about in the books:  Dorne!! Braavos and Qarth, absolutely.  Small details that I loved learning about already were things like the hot springs underneath Winterfell.  I enjoyed Vaes Dothrak's description a lot too.   Boy, Kahl Drogo is barely a character in this book though.   

 

I'm in Bran's chapters and I think on the cusp of finding out that I was wrong, Osha is a real character, not a show construct?  Cool.  I actually liked Osha, but she seemed like what Ros turned out to be:  a character added so that other characters could talk to her and tell her things contained in the books.  Or she could share things in the book (like information about the Zombonis).  

[Delta1212]

Interesting fact, Martin has said Natalie Tena's portrayal of Osha is the only one that caused him to look at one of his characters in a new light.

[Protar]

Interesting fact, Martin has said Natalie Tena's portrayal of Osha is the only one that caused him to look at one of his characters in a new light.

 

I'll be honest I'm not really seeing why. I mean Natalie Tena is fine as Osha but I don't know that she really brings anything amazing to the role. But if Martin likes her than that's good enough for me. :)

[Protar]

But beyond that, HBO can get more than a little bit exploitative of women.  There's also a lot of violence against women.  Plus, I already know where Lysa Arryn is heading, I also know what will happen to Cat.  Marg is depicted as being sexually manipulative.  Just saying that onscreen depicting Cersei as pure villain might have tipped the balance of the show into "That's kind feeling anti-women, guys. " 

 

As usual I don't want to say anything explicit about what happens in future books/chapters, but I really think that the show fails hard in it's depiction of women. Especially given I actually consider the source material to be a feminist series (because it has great female characters and the setting allows a lot of exploration on how women deal with, challenge and work within the patriarchy). One trend in particular I have noticed is that a lot of female characters are changed to be more "badass" i.e violent and/or sexually manipulative. And there's nothing wrong with that archetype, but those characters which already fit that mould tend to be favouritised and those which cannot be changed without significantly impacting the plot get the short shrift. D+D just don't know how to write softer, more feminine women. Or don't like to. And I think it's important for there to be a range of different female characters, rather than just a couple of idealised, badass stereotypes.

 

Anyway, I'm going off on one. It's a real problem with the show imo.

[Triskan]

 

I don't consider a heads up about a character to look forward to a spoiler at all, but I don't have any idea who Dolores Edd is, Triskan.  

 

Jon Snow's dour friend in the Watch, the one that always have a pessimist look on life.

 

I'd say he's my favourite minor character in the books ! Looking forward to you meeting him ! ;)

[ambi76]

But beyond that, HBO can get more than a little bit exploitative of women.  There's also a lot of violence against women.  Plus, I already know where Lysa Arryn is heading, I also know what will happen to Cat. Marg is depicted as being sexually manipulative.  Just saying that onscreen depicting Cersei as pure villain might have tipped the balance of the show into "That's kind feeling anti-women, guys. "   Cersie is villainous enough, but at least she has reasons that aren't just "I'm evil.  I've always been evil.  Evil is fun."

 

You're hitting the nail on the head here I think (especially with show!Marg being a bit too much like book!Cersei in some respects*), and D&D definitely wanted to avoid the nutty sexually manipulative shrew fantasy villain trope for once, I guess. While GRRM is somewhat building that trope up very slowly over the story with Cersei. It could be especially grating since Jaime (the male "evil" twin) takes the other direction in the narrative.

 

*Casting speculation from my side: Has IMHO something to do with Dormer auditioning for the role of Cersei at first, being rejected, and then offered the role of Margaery instead.

Edited June 26, 2015 by ambi76

[Avaleigh]

Did she decide to not read the books altogether?  Or did she eventually read the books and the show took her in a different direction?  Whichever it is, I can sort of understand the decision, specifically because it's clear from how many comments people have made about changing their mind about, or growing to like Jaime, that they do expand upon and give Jaime layers.   I get that you're all also saying that she's an entertaining villain, but I can see the wisdom behind making that story call. 

 

For one thing, the series ends up being a bit villain heavy in later seasons.  For another, whatever development they've give Book Jaime, it hasn't translated onto the screen as much at it might have otherwise...although even I felt for the guy when his freaking daughter died in front of his face, right after she said, "I'm glad I'm your daughter."  and then proceeds to have brain bleed and die.  Prior to that, I didn't really think they'd improved him....or rather...added much insight into him.   Plus, they had him do at least one thing that isn't really the stuff of any kind of redemption.  

 

But beyond that, HBO can get more than a little bit exploitative of women.  There's also a lot of violence against women.  Plus, I already know where Lysa Arryn is heading, I also know what will happen to Cat.  Marg is depicted as being sexually manipulative.  Just saying that onscreen depicting Cersei as pure villain might have tipped the balance of the show into "That's kind feeling anti-women, guys. "   Cersie is villainous enough, but at least she has reasons that aren't just "I'm evil.  I've always been evil.  Evil is fun." 

 

On the screen, you lose so much background, so many things, it seems like it was probably a good call to add more depth or layers wherever possible. 

There are so many things that I take for granted that the Unsullied will pick up on. It didn't even occur to me that Dolorous Edd's name hadn't really been put out there that much. I love getting little tidbits like this to see where it would have been helpful for the showrunners to be more explicit when giving basic info. 

 

Re the quote in bold--

I personally think it was the right choice. I love almost all of the changes that they've made with show Cersei. Just to be clear I'm mostly talking about changes as opposed to full on eliminations although sometimes I'm fine with those too. (Minor spoiler for minor character name who hasn't appeared on the show.)

Taena being gone is fine to me even though she's fairly prominent AFFC. I think keeping her out makes perfect sense.

 

There are absolutely some book things about Cersei that are disappointing in terms of plot/character development. With show!Cersei they're there too but really there are all sort of complications about this that we can't quite get into yet.

 

I thought the show did a good job in her brief moment at the tourney conveying the contempt she has for Robert when we consider that she's had to deal with his obnoxious bullshit almost every day for some fifteen plus years and that this was just the tiniest glimpse inside of what it would have to be like to interact with a powerful drunk like that. 

 

Also, just to clarify, I might have sympathy for both book and show Cersei but that doesn't mean that I don't recognize that she's supposed to be a horrible person. I enjoy what she brings to the table and think she makes the story more exciting. Ramsay...I don't enjoy hating him I just want him to die. Any time now.

[Delta1212]

I don't think they ever called him Dolorous Edd in the show. Just Edd.

[Triskan]

Yeah, he was named only three times in the show : first during the final scene of season 2 (Sam called him and Grenn out), then during the Battle at Castle Black ("Edd, you have the Wall !") and lastly, during the latest finale ("There's always Edd" - Sam). It's sad his full nickname has never been spelled out, it's a glorious one ! ^^

Edited June 26, 2015 by Triskan

[Lady S.]

So I referred to this a little while back, but from a couple of added scenes -- like Cersei going to Ned's office in the Tower of the Hand -- I got the impression that Cersei didn't hate Ned on any personal level.  Perhaps she even admired his dogged devotion to honor, but she had plans...blah blah blah.  That was back in the first season and I got a PM from someone that wasn't horrible or anything, but did basically tell me I had no idea what I was talking about...and Lena Headey was not playing Cersei correctly.  The poster put that down to Headey not choosing to read the books.  

 

Did she decide to not read the books altogether?  Or did she eventually read the books and the show took her in a different direction?  Whichever it is, I can sort of understand the decision, specifically because it's clear from how many comments people have made about changing their mind about, or growing to like Jaime, that they do expand upon and give Jaime layers.   I get that you're all also saying that she's an entertaining villain, but I can see the wisdom behind making that story call.

Since you asked, Lena's mother reads the books and talks about them with her, but she made the decision not to read them at all herself just yet, so she can interpret Cersei based on the scripts. There are also actors who only read their own characters' PoV chapters or the chapters their characters appear in, and still others who read one or two books and then gave up, but I won't name names there.

 

Yes, I think Jaime's cold killing of Ned's men as an afterthought is a lot shittier in the book, and that's one instance where the show actually did him a favor. 

 

 

I also enjoyed the Show-only scene between Jaime and Jon Snow in the second episode of Season 1.  Jaime is being a dick to Jon but the advice he offers him is realistic and it could be interpreted as helpful.

Yeah, I liked that because there's a definite parallel between the Night's Watch and the Kingsguard, and it's almost like Jaime is trying to be helpful in his own dickish way. (Book Tyrion's life advice to Jon in Tyrion II is also pretty dickish, hence Ghost attacking him when Jon is on the verge of tears.)

ETA:

ETA:  By the way, for all that I'm kvetching about "obvious budgetary decisions" I take it GoT actually did pretty well with the budge they had.  A terrible, terrible....it cannot be stressed enough....terrible show called Camelot, or Arthur or some such "Knights of the Round Table, Whee!" production aired on Starz after GoT's first season...actually got high enough ratings to warrant renewal, but it was so bad, the cast apparently wanted the fuck out (Joseph Fiennes dignity may never recover) so they couldn't resolve "scheduling conflicts" for the actors (which is the flashing "Wow, the cast thought this was so bad, that at least one of principal players wanted out so much they were taking a pass on a paycheck? Wow." sign of "everyone involved was fleeing something")...and it looked cheaper than hell on top of everything else.  The women were dressed in stretch velvet....no shit.  

Fun fact about that show: Jamie Campbell Bower, the actor who played King Arthur was originally cast as Waymar Royce in GoT's unaired pilot but dropped out by the time they re-shot the pilot, to do Camelot instead.

 

Count me as another Ros supporter, but then I was a show fan first. Bianco definitely wasn't fired for being too demanding, since it doesn't make any sense that some lady hired originally to just be naked while other characters developed would have the kind of clout to force D&D into a corner, where they either had to give her more screentime or kill her off. (She didn't appear nude in all of s3, but that doesn't mean that was the reason she was let go either.)

Though I am sure that's who Oona Chaplin was referring to, since Emilia had one last tit shot in 3.08 after Chaplin did that interview, so it can't have been her.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Lady S.

[Shanna Marie]

I just found this thread and am finding it interesting because I didn't start reading the books until after the first season -- well, sort of.

 

I actually got an advance copy of the first book a couple of months before the official publication date. They passed them out at a professional conference for the romance genre. It was still a few weeks before official publication when I decided to read it. I had one of those rare weekends when I got off early on Friday and had absolutely nothing on the agenda all weekend, perfect for falling into a Big Fat Fantasy. Except, since I got the book at a romance conference, I had very different expectations for it. I knew it wasn't a genre romance, but I figured that if they were passing it out to romance writers, editors, etc., in order to generate word of mouth, it probably was kind of a romantic fantasy, in the sense that there would be a romantic lead and a love story that was at least part of a subplot. That was what I was in the mood for, so that's why I picked that book to read that weekend. And then I was hopelessly lost because I kept trying to mold what I was reading into that expectation. The guy who seemed like he'd be the hero was already married. The potential rising heroes were fourteen. The dashing knight was sleeping with his twin sister. I think they were still in Winterfell when I put the book down. I don't think I made a conscious decision to stop reading, but when I had another reading session, I picked something else up. I really don't know what they were thinking by handing that book out to romance writers. I never was really hardcore on that subject and have since come to the realization that while I like a good love story I don't actually like romance novels, but a good chunk of the romance crowd is really, really adamant on a happy ending -- all the main characters need to be alive at the end and the hero and heroine must be paired off in a way that looks like it will be forever. Also, a lot of readers have been known to boycott a writer's future books if an animal or child dies in a book. I'm surprised there weren't more torches and pitchforks coming from this, unless maybe most of those readers never got to the end because they couldn't find the romance at all.

 

Anyway, I pretty much remained oblivious to the series and had heard nothing more about it. When they were making the TV series, I remember seeing some of the magazine covers and going, "oh, it's that thing, isn't it?" I wasn't unspoiled because it didn't even occur to me to avoid spoilers, so I'd seen all the reaction to Ned's death, all the memes relating to it. Then one weekend when the first season had ended, I got bored and thought I'd watch the first episode OnDemand to see what the fuss was about. And ended up marathoning the entire season that weekend. I kept the book beside me, mostly to look at the maps and lists of characters at the back, but sometimes to clarify something from a scene in the book. I didn't actually start reading the book until they put season one back up OnDemand in preparation for season two. I'd rewatch an episode, then read up to that point in the book, then watch another episode. I got the second book from the library and started doing that as season two aired, but ended up just reading straight through and went on to get the rest of the books, so I'd read the whole series before the second season ended.

 

I don't know if it was having different expectations the second try or if the show helped me to get a better grip on the characters, or maybe if it was that I was a lot older and looking for something different than I was on my earlier attempt that made the difference between my initial lack of interest and my later plowing through the books. I do think that the HBO aging up of the kid characters helped. I just couldn't process these fourteen year olds being in the kinds of situations Robb and Jon were in, and I found it harder to latch on to those characters until I was able to mentally adjust my vision of them to be closer to 18. I have vague memories of my mental images of what I read vs. what I saw in my head after seeing the show. One real shift was that I thought of Ned as so old on my first read since he was (gasp!) over 30. Then I saw the much older TV Ned, and then it seemed like book Ned was ridiculously young.

[magdalene]

I really liked the actor they got to play Dany's brother in the first season and I hope - futilely I am sure - that the show will cast him as another character. HBO did that on Deadwood with Garret Dillahunt and it was awesome.

[nksarmi]

I have to say that I am really glad I watched a couple of seasons (two I think) of the show before I read the books.  I don't think I could have connected with the story as well without the age up of the characters.  So now with the seasons lasting for years, I have just concluded that years work differently in this world too.  That way 13 is more like our 20 and so on.  Leave me alone, I need this to make some of this stuff work lol.

[ambi76]

Would have worked out anyway if GRRM actually had jumped the story from 300 AL to 305 AL after ASOS like planned. Voila everybody is closer to 20 now: Dany 21 (16), Sansa 18/19 (13/14), Ayra 16 (11), Bran 15 (10), Loras 23 (18),

Jon 22 (17), Tommen 14 (9) etc.

Edited June 28, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

It's been too long without a Stillshimpy post :P. I'm really interested to see her reaction to

the Tower of Joy.

[stillshimpy]

Hehe, sorry Protar, on the weekends we end up working on the house a lot.  We bought a house with a lot of condition issues and the only way to ever turn that into any kind of profit (I must be part Lannister, as dismaying a thought as that is) is to do most of the rehab work ourselves.  

 

So I did cram in a few more chapters, but there hasn't been anything particularly startling.  Ned's nearing the end of his days and I was interested by his dream, because apparently Jory was not Ser Rodrik's son or grandson and even the vague memories of Ned's dream once again pointed to Lyanna having given birth to Rhaegar's son, I take it.  After all, I don't know why three sworn Kingsguards would stand guard over Lyanna Stark if that wasn't the case.  

 

I'm really of two minds about that.  The show really wasn't that clear about it in the first season.  All it had was "You may not have my name, but you do have my blood" and then Robert raging about what Rhaegar had done to Lyanna.  Removed from all the really pretty obvious underlining of Ned's memories, it's not quite as obvious that "Oh, okay.  So Jon is not Ned's son, he's Lyanna's son.  Okay."   So mostly that's been confirmation that we had a lot of readers in among us for a long time, which is mostly just sort of depressing.  

 

It's not that absolutely no one could guess from the show, it's that it would be far less likely considering we didn't actually know the circumstance of Lyanna's death or thing like the fact that she was apparently guarded by three Kingsguard.  Also the whole "Bed of blood" thing also makes it pretty obvious.  We didn't even know she hadn't died of an illness.  

 

So that's just sort of grim confirmation of what started to seem most likely after a while.  It was like that guy "guessing" that Ned would take the black, before we had any reason to believe he could and more reasons to believe that wasn't a possibility.   I'm sure it was more fun back in the day to be sort this out rather a grim march of confirming something I'd suspected for a while in a completely other kind of speculation.  

 

It also sort of sucks because there would be bound to be people who might have guessed that had the conversation just sort of naturally evolved, instead we had people insisting, "Oh, I know! What if...." and then spilling really detailed levels of plot that I'm just now finding out were the actual freaking plot...right down to things like "But what if there weren't any surviving witnesses?" which is the detail that just seems the bridge too far.  

 

But anyway, enough about that, it's just taking away any natural enjoyment of learning "oh, so they were spilling the whole plot that the book actually outlines.  Okay. "   which is a fairly joyless discovery.  Instead of getting to think that it was sort of neatly and intricately constructed setup, which it was, but  guessing some of that would be very unlikely.  

 

Catelyn  at the Eyrie baffles me just as much as she did in the series and that surprises me.  I'm glad Tyrion's line about the soup was an add-in for the show.  I never liked it much, it was just that hair too antagonistic to believe.  But why she let her crazy sister proceed is still baffling me.  After getting a load of the games at the Eyrie taking place right in front of her face, it doesn't occur to Catelyn to start questioning what Lysa might be up to on a larger scale, or and this makes a lot more sense if she was sane enough to be relied upon in the first place even if she wasn't lying.  

 

The scene between Robert and Ned played out much better in the series, by the way.  I liked that Robert had to make a clear and clear-headed decision to just save Ned's neck and he knew there would be high hell to pay.  I think Martin's chief weakness as a writer might be in that he doesn't add enough balance to some characters.  Robert of old is too lost to sight to believe that he was truly possible, although I felt that on the page Martin really made clear the level of loss and confusion Robert had about his role, he came off as a bit too weak.  

 

So I'm not sure what it is that you're all anticipating seeing me react to, but I'm sorry, I have to go help remove and install two windows now :-)   If that were metaphorical, I'd have some keen insight to share upon my return, but since it is literal, I'm far more likely to have good shim advice to give.  

 

More later, thanks for making me perk up at the thought of something interesting to come.  

Edited June 28, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

You are allowed to have a life, Shimpy. The book can wait.

[Protar]

No! No life! :P

 

Anyway, we were looking forward to you reacting to Ned's Dream sequence. It's pretty much the biggest scene in Season 1 that was left out of the books, and is a cornerstone of the "Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son theory" (Which for future reference is referred to as R+L=J). 

[Triskan]

Well, your take on the Tower of Joy was the moment from the first book I (and others) was most looking forward for you to reach. Let's say that the show cutting the dreams of characters will allow you to discover and read some great moments that never appeared on screen ! 

 

EDIT : Well, 

thanks for making me perk up at the thought of something interesting to come.

 

That was the Tower of Joy moment, so you can safely click on Protar's spoiler ! ^^

 

It's an iconic moment, the most obvious clue to Jon parentage there is and, in my mind, a truly beautifuly written moment.

 

For me, the next big moment I'm looking forward for her to reach (and that's a spoiler from the second book, dont look shimpy !) :

the earlier than in the show introduction of Ramsay and the Reeds - but especially Ramsay).

Edited June 28, 2015 by Triskan

[stillshimpy]

Ha, thank you, Haleth , I have a nice life, aside from when I'm helping to pull windows and paint anything that isn't moving, or chasing down something called tack cloth.  So, thanks to you too, Protar, for telling me "No, get back to reading!" as a means of rescuing me.  

 

Aha, so that's what you guys were waiting to see how I'd react to?  Got it.  Well, it's well done, it's written quite well, but it does make it very obvious that Lyanna died giving birth to a child.  I think I'd have had more of "Oh my god, holy shit!" type of reaction if it hadn't just been confirmation of a dozen or so bookwalkers through the years ;-/  So it was less "Wow! Fun!! Who knew?"  and more "man, what does someone get out of that?"  ....but it had happened so frequently that for about the last year, I figured it had to be in the books somewhere.  

 

I have long, long (and I do mean LONG) argued against that as a plot point "Jon: The secret love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna" because....I just find it sort of treacly.  I didn't think this story did much with tropes.  But the hidden child of royalty, concealed as being someone without worth, that's not a particularly fresh concept.  I've liked the book so far, because it is doing unexpected things.  Now it's sort of doing Star Wars things.    

 

That said, I did like that a) it turns out Cat can't have known.  In her POV she thinks of Jon as Ned's son.  b) horribly it really does mean that every moment of Ned's dreary life he was serving some form of honor or another and never was in love with anyone other than Cat -- who I like less with each passing encounter on the page -- but you know the c) of it that really irks me?  That almost certainly means Jon didn't actually die and I bawled all over my dog for no reason.  

 

I hate that sort of reset button.  

 

Also, as I read that chapter I had to wonder "uh....who the hell is left to even tell Jon who he is?"  and I realized, to my utter and complete horror:  Littlefinger.  I don't know how he'll know, but he'll freaking know.  

 

That might actually be a fun scene :-)  

 

Wow, there's just not even any ambiguity to it, is there?  Three Kingsguard, ready to die, knowing Aerys is dead, knowing Rhaegar was dead.  Apparently having sworn to stay and protect Lyanna in the "Tower of Joy"  (hey, earlier I was talking about how one of my favorite books is The House of Mirth, right?  so really, I had a more amusing reaction to The Tower of Joy....because...yeah....so it's good to know Martin not only studied the same areas of history, apparently he almost certainly likes at least one of my favorite books too).  

 

You know what else?  All far outside of the "it made me sort of sad to realize how many people had been book walking us for a really long time" ....I know that Ned will soon die.  I know that one of the last dreams he had in his life was about keeping his promise to his sister, who apparently died screaming out his name and exacted promises that he'd keep until his actual dying day.  

 

And Jon will never actually get to have a conversation with him that would make him realize, "Wow, not only was I loved from the second I was born....you treated me as being more important than you were for the entirety of your remaining life."  

 

It made me sad to know that Ned will die and not one person will have said, "Wow, I know what you did.  That was amazing and good, kind...a new definition of honorable and loving too....THANK YOU."   Nope.  Poor friggin' Ned.  Poor friggin Jon.  Possibly poor friggin' Lyanna, but if this book so heavily hinted at Jon's parentage, I'm assuming I'm going to have to put up with Lyanna and Rhaegar having been in love and blah blah blah....cannot stand that kind of notion of love.  "Sure, we wrecked the whole world so that we could bone, but man, we were in love.  Sure, Rhaegar's actual wife met a dude named the Mountain...and boy, would that ever not end well for her and her baby..."  
 

I've particularly enjoyed repeated reading about how one of her poor children died at the Mountain's hands, so that's been special too.  So it is even more depressing, the thought that "Oh good, so Ned really subjected himself to a truckload of fun for you two...and I think your poor brother likely was choked to actual death for you two...." then Lyanna died making Ned promise to take on this life long burden of what to him seemed shame.  That would cause his wife to act hatefully and others to sneer behind their hands at how the might Ned Stark had fallen.  Splendid.  So my reaction was that I think Lyanna Stark was sort of an ass.  I mean, unless it turns out she really was just a victim, she and Rhaegar wrecked the world, got her relatives killed (at which point...yeah...you leave that guy, chica ) ...and died extracting promises that would burden at least one of the remaining members of her family.   What a lovely person. Wish we could do lunch.  

 

I guess the trope breaker here is that they were jackasses? But then Heathcliff and Cathy were really not splendid folks either.  Boy could I ever go on from there, but the point being that love turning two people into selfish monsters who ruined the lives of others on behalf of their overheated bits and parts is not exactly trope breaking either.  

 

But I did like the writing in that passage.  Particularly that the people of his past were wraiths in his memory.  Knowing that Ned is thisclose to dying made that a gorgeously poignant word choice.  

Edited June 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

I think the R+L=J stuff is a lot more subtle if you're just reading the books without any prior knowledge to be honest. Maybe I'm just defending myself for not picking up at first, but then I know a lot of people who didn't. Once you've been watching the same general story for years, and the theory has been bought up many times before, I guess all these hints and things seem really obvious. I would like to see the reaction to the Tower of Joy from a show watcher not caught on to R+L=J. To just plonk this mysterious lost scene in front of them. I can get the disappointment about R+L=J not being super trope breaking. I mean it doesn't bother me. I can't expect Martin to break every trope, and there's more stuff about Robert's Rebellion to come and a lot of theories about exactly what this means for Jon and the series as a whole. 

 

On an unrelated note, rather interested to see that you're growing to dislike Cat a lot. She's very divisive so it's interesting to see where you're falling on the topic, and more interesting to find that it isn't just her treatment of Jon that you dislike. Because often when people don't like Cat the impression I get is that they - understandably - disliked "It should have been you", and then that completely colours their whole perception of her. 

 

I can't say I'm a huge Cat fan myself, mainly because her POV can be quite harrowing to read. But she has a lot of depth and she's one of Martin's best characters. She's morally ambiguous on a more human level than many characters. You compare her to someone like Jaime who goes from pushing kids out of windows to rescuing Brienne from being raped and eaten by a bear, and Cat's on a much flatter, more ordinary level. Her good deeds are less grandiose, her bad deeds smaller and perhaps more petty. 

[Haleth]

Also, as I read that chapter I had to wonder "uh....who the hell is left to even tell Jon who he is?"  

 

Ned wasn't the only one to walk away from the Tower of Joy.  (Not a spoiler, just a point of fact.)

 

Not to defend Lyanna, but she was an impulsive teenager.  She is often compared to Arya but I could see Sansa's "dreamy, knight in shining armor" thing in her too with regard to Rhaegar.  (That is, assuming it was an elopement.)  She probably had no forethought of what her behavior could cost her family and the 7 kingdoms, just as Sansa's crush on Joff caused a few problems for them too.  Yes, selfish, but Rhaegar, the adult and the prince, is most accountable.

[Delta1212]

Honestly? When everyone was getting upset at the lack of the Tower of Joy on the show, I had no idea what that even was. There is a lot of stuff in these books that gets throw out there with no context and, lacking context, you sort of gloss over it, but once you've twigged to what's going on, it becomes super obvious what is being referenced.

[stillshimpy]

He was married, had children and a war started over the whole thing so that's a lot of "she was a teenager" slack to cut.  See, that's where the "might have been a dreamy/dreamy/fanciful teenager who just got caught up in being the crown prince's fancy' falls to pieces. Believing in fairytales or mushy romances don't allow for the leaving existent wives with tiny babies.  But what it really, really doesn't allow for is "and his family killed your brother and father too, how princey looking now?" 

 

You may be right, Protar, but I think that would also depend on something else:  Not being focused on Ned in the story because truly, it's pretty hammer and tongs.   I think Tyrion is just as easy and compelling a figure for people to focus upon in this story.  So is Bran.  Ned isn't all that interesting unless you're like me, which is drawn to the bullheaded and good people in a story, always:  See my years long defense of Helo on BSG.  Just saying, I'd have been focused on that and there's another problem with the thing that is missing from Ned's POV: he never once thinks about this great love of his life, but he sure has a bug up his butt about his kid sister and the Kingsguard thing really gives it away.  "Wait, Rhaegar's dead, the Kingsguard just referred to the Trident, there's no reason for them to....oh." 

Add that to Cat's "Still obsessed with who Ned screwed, all these years later" POV and that makes the "...and entirely missing from Ned's train of thought is anything having to do with this woman....and we have access to his internal dialogue."   Add that to the whole "...and Jon kind of does go on about how being a bastard SUCKS in that land...." and there's one more thing that would have caught my attention there:  That is not something that Martin is drawing from history.  So for me, that's actually the book detail that would have made me go "Huh? Why did he do that?"  because, just to pick on randomly from history, Henry Fitzroy was made a damned duke and the acknowledged "natural" son of Henry VIII.  Knowing that the whole "Bastards, we spit on you culturally, systemically" thing is something Martin inserted into this story would have caught my attention.  The acknowledged bastards of highborn people were not treated as Martin has people in this world doing.  

 

So I absolutely believe that you know people who didn't pick up on it, but I think that might have more to do with which character that person was focused upon, because I'll bet the united factor was "Yeah, Ned didn't interest me as much as _______"  Bed of blood.  Kingsguard to a dead king, not defending a king?  Oh....yeah, okay.  It's not subtle , it just might not have been drawing focus because Ned would bore on awful lot of people, I think.  Compared to Tyrion, in particular.  Doggedly honorable is not the most charismatic characteristic on a page.  I also don't think it is evidence of anyone being dim, but I can say with a lot of confidence, I'd have noticed, because that "shit upon the acknowledged natural children of highborn men" is not how it goes down throughout history.   

The above is why, I promise you, I'd have noticed.   Now, the thing I'm equally sure I wouldn't have caught on to and would never have occurred to me?  That it was supposed to indicate a romance.  Yeah, that's even with all the "Lyanna, was willful.  So headstrong.  The one memory Ned has about how she felt about Robert reflects deep ambivalence about being engaged to him and believing he'd never be faithful (which I'd have noticed that had value to her, I think...maybe....that I'm not sure about because that's not an eye-catcher of a detail) ..."  it would not have ever naturally occurred to me that it was a romance unless spelled out.  

 

But anyway, thanks Haleth, I made the assumption that the other survivor is just plain-old dead now.  That part of what allowed Ned to keep Jon a secret had to do with "....wow, was other knight I've never heard of wearing  a red shirt, by any chance?  'cause...." 

 

 

 

On an unrelated note, rather interested to see that you're growing to dislike Cat a lot.

 

I don't dislike her a lot,  I like her less , which is not the same thing.  The thing with Jon is bad, it's pretty freaking bad, but I also think it is a really stupid to ask the wife to raise an illegitimate child.  So I'd have bene less likely to focus on that.   Mostly, I don't like when it's considered such a sin for a woman to not be a great mom to random children.  I find the whole "defining women via their maternal instinct, or damning them for lacking it" thing to have roots in very, very icky societal and gender roles that really were designed to hold women back.  

It's about the worst characteristic to write into a female character, because nothing seemingly invites the censure of the world like not being maternal.  So I tend dig my heels in on that.  It is considered such a sin in our world, never to be spoken of, or admitted, that I always feel the knee-jerk reaction to add this:  I was a pretty good mom.  I mean, I never had to give my son a kidney or anything, but I would.  That position of mine is not rooted in "I'm not maternal" ...I'm pretty damned maternal, even though I only have one child.   We still get along famously and are texting about the latest scifi show he's watching right now.  So this is not about me, but it is about how the primary role of women tends to STILL be defined by other women.  So I'd have dug my heels in at the invitation to dislike her for deciding that she didn't have an obligation to mother Jon.  It wouldn't have made me like her, but there are specific reasons why I take a pass on disliking anyone based on "not motherly towards a child"...unless, you know, it's terrible and without question horrible.   That one was bad.  Unforgivably bad.  

I don't know, that one might have gone either way.  That was how bad it was.   It's just occurred to me why that might have transcended my long policy of "It's fine for a woman not to be motherly towards children, hers, other peoples...it's sort of like fat-shaming...it's womb shaming or something"  ....because that has nothing to do with being maternal, that has to do with human decency.  That was abusive and the kind of shit  you don't say to someone who hasn't just stabbed you with an actual knife.  It's out of bounds to say to someone, but it is really, really out of bounds to say to a developing person and beyond that?  The only age a person can get away with saying something that callous, that cruel and not realizing "Holy shit, that was way out of bounds, no matter what..." is when that person is a teenager or child themselves and lacks the necessary emotional development to get WHY it is so bad.  

 

ETA:   By the way, look for the prefix "Fitz" throughout history and chances are good, it will trace back to an acknowledge illegitimate son.  Fitz means "son of".  

 

ETA2:  also, hi Shanna Marie :-) 

Edited June 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

The other survivor has actually been mentioned on the show so is it a spoiler to jog your memory?

Howland Reed, the father of Meera and Jojen.

[Avaleigh]

Re: the selfishness of Rhaegar and Lyanna--I haven't made up my mind about this yet and am still expecting us to learn more details. I'm not entirely convinced though that Lyanna didn't leave word that she was going willingly and that somehow her note or raven never reached her family. I agree though that if she just took off and ran leaving her family to think the worst then she's easily one of the most selfish individuals in the Seven Kingdoms who could even give Cersei a run for her money when it comes to being totally self centered. 

Ha, thank you, Haleth , I have a nice life, aside from when I'm helping to pull windows and paint anything that isn't moving, or chasing down something called tack cloth.  So, thanks to you too, Protar, for telling me "No, get back to reading!" as a means of rescuing me.  

 

Aha, so that's what you guys were waiting to see how I'd react to?  Got it.  Well, it's well done, it's written quite well, but it does make it very obvious that Lyanna died giving birth to a child.  I think I'd have had more of "Oh my god, holy shit!" type of reaction if it hadn't just been confirmation of a dozen or so bookwalkers through the years ;-/  So it was less "Wow! Fun!! Who knew?"  and more "man, what does someone get out of that?"  ....but it had happened so frequently that for about the last year, I figured it had to be in the books somewhere.  

 

I have long, long (and I do mean LONG) argued against that as a plot point "Jon: The secret love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna" because....I just find it sort of treacly.  I didn't think this story did much with tropes.  But the hidden child of royalty, concealed as being someone without worth, that's not a particularly fresh concept.  I've liked the book so far, because it is doing unexpected things.  Now it's sort of doing Star Wars things.    

 

That said, I did like that a) it turns out Cat can't have known.  In her POV she thinks of Jon as Ned's son.  b) horribly it really does mean that every moment of Ned's dreary life he was serving some form of honor or another and never was in love with anyone other than Cat -- who I like less with each passing encounter on the page -- but you know the c) of it that really irks me?  That almost certainly means Jon didn't actually die and I bawled all over my dog for no reason.  

 

I hate that sort of reset button.  

 

Also, as I read that chapter I had to wonder "uh....who the hell is left to even tell Jon who he is?"  and I realized, to my utter and complete horror:  Littlefinger.  I don't know how he'll know, but he'll freaking know.  

 

That might actually be a fun scene :-)  

 

Wow, there's just not even any ambiguity to it, is there?  Three Kingsguard, ready to die, knowing Aerys is dead, knowing Rhaegar was dead.  Apparently having sworn to stay and protect Lyanna in the "Tower of Joy"  (hey, earlier I was talking about how one of my favorite books is The House of Mirth, right?  so really, I had a more amusing reaction to The Tower of Joy....because...yeah....so it's good to know Martin not only studied the same areas of history, apparently he almost certainly likes at least one of my favorite books too).  

Shimpy, you would be surprised at the level of vitriol that this theory has caused in certain parts of the fandom. I can't tell you how many posts that I've read over the years from people who claim that RLJ turning out to be true will "ruin" the series for them and there are all sorts of reasons given. Some people think it's too obvious and want to be shocked by a surprise they weren't expecting. Some people think that it supposedly once again makes the Targaryens too special. Some people think that Jon already has too much--Jon gets the biggest direwolf, super brief speculation on my part but I'm spoiler tagging just in case--

he'll probably ride a dragon

, if RLJ is true then marriage will likely be in the cards for him at some point and this alone makes some people feel stabby because for whatever reason some people still think that Jon should continue to live out his days like a celibate monk on the Wall as if he somehow still owes the Night's Watch anything after what they did to him. Some people even think that this could take away from Dany's story as opposed to adding to it. 

 

I've always thought the theory to be so straightforward that I've just been waiting for it to happen and for other characters to find out about it. Even though I feel confident that RLJ is true it doesn't kill the excitement for me because I'm mainly looking forward to all of the various character reactions not to mention how Jon ends up finally finding out about it all. 

Edited June 29, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Protar]

I think the biggest theory for how R+L=J is trope breaking is that it will end up not mattering. Jon will just outright reject his Targaryen heritage - hopefully after some conflict. I'm not really a fan of that because it would feel like being trolled. Personally I'm hoping for the "power resides where men believe it resides" route: Targ or not, Jon will be a great leader with a huge part to play fighting the Others. But people, not the gods, not magic, not anything else - but people - will assign importance to his Targaryen heritage. 

[stillshimpy]

Oh my God, that's who the other survivor was, Protar??? And no, joggng my memory for a show mention is absolutely not out of bounds for me.  Please do.  I was never good with names.  Details.  Character details I'm good with, but names are not my strong suit here or in life either.  Jog away.  Bludgeon when necessary.  I'm bad with names.  

 

Holy crap, now that just made an audible click and made the whole thing with the Reeds really a fun detail for the show!  We had all these theories about how they were possibly EVIL or dead.  Or sinister...or dead.  Or sinister and dead.   Ha! 

 

Okay, so I'm going to ask that no one answer definitively right now, but if it is still debated then I'm going to guess that it still isn't confirmed that Lyanna went willingly. I'll just cling to plausible deniability on that for a while longer and hope.  

 

For one thing, here's something that -- I'm not sure it would be a story ruiner for me -- but it really, really and I do mean REALLY bothers me that a family that was so about honor and devotion to one another that Lyanna could extract a lifelong promise from Ned on a subject rather dear to his heart, would be extracted by someone whose hormones and lack of sound judgment because of them, got her father and brother killed.  Now, it was really as bad as it could get when I thought Brandon had been burned alive (apparently he was strangled) and I don't yet know how Pater Stark kicks it....but it would take some goddamned NERVE on Lyanna's part to be all "Sorry I ruined the world and got dad and Bran hideously killed, but he was really, really the bestest ever, Ned.  I was in lurve ...true lurve....now just murder what remains of your honor to protect my son for the rest of his life....make that sacrifice RIGHT NOW....and I'm completely leveraging our family connection to you to extract that promise.  Even though I got Dad and Bran killed because I have tragic taste in men.  

 

I'm doing this because I suck and you likely know it, but there's still some life in my "bed of blood is associated with childbirth, yo" body and I'm going to use my ebbing life force to suck a little more.  Gods forbid you just handed the kid over to a blacksmith or said, THIS KID IS BRANDON STARK's like a normal person....have I mentioned that I suck?  Promise me!"  

Edited June 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Shimpy, as much as I cant refute your arguments on Lyanna's terrible deadly impulses that caused the ruin of her family, I'd say you do not dispose as of yet of all the elements concerning Rhaegar's state of mind on the subject (and I'd say we dont know enough yet to judge Lyanna)... 

 

You'll get some more clues in one of the most memorable scene from the second book that has been completely changed in the books (although I totally understand why).

Edited June 29, 2015 by Triskan

[Haleth]

There is something else in the second book that I most look forward to Shimpy reading.

 

Anyway, regarding Lyanna and Rhaegar, there are lots of things powerful (and married) men say to sheltered girls to seduce them.  It happens in RL all the time.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Haleth

[Protar]

There's a lot of things I'm looking forward to Shimpy reacting to in CoK. The absence of a certain someone especially. 

[stillshimpy]

The absence of a certain someone especially.

 

Huh, okay that has me wondering, but I'm not sure a) was CoK stands for "Crows" is in one of the book titles though.  Anyway, I'm super glad that you guys are looking forward to me freaking out :-)  That doesn't make me nervous at all or anything.  Yikes.  

 

Note how: It's this story.  There is no way on Earth I jumped to the conclusion: "Oh, I bet that it is something GOOD that happens, because that's how this story rolls"  .  I'm not sure which season would be CoK, and please don't tell me, because that will make me guess who isn't there.  Already I've gone down a list: Daario?  Yeah, I wouldn't really care there.  Qarth is not really my gig, so Ducksauce isn't going to matter much if he's made up.  Who else?  Shae?  If Shae is made up that would be weird, but someone already mentioned that Roz might have been a composite for prostitutes in the books, but that didn't hold water because Shae was the only developed one...

 

So I know Shae is really in the books.  Jaqen?  Now that would be a huge freaking one.   Sadly, I already know fucking Ramsay is in the books, because someone told me he has his fans.  After I took a TUMS and an Advil, I felt better after that one.  

 

Oberyn?  They could NOT have just invented Oberyn?  

 

I'm now going to quit speculating before I eliminate every damned character ever. 

 

Anyway, regarding Lyanna and Rhaegar, there are lots of things powerful (and married) men say to sheltered girls to seduce them.  It happens in RL all the time.

 

Sure, but it doesn't mean those girls don't actually kind of suck and the deal breaker remains:  Then the world went to war and my dad and brother got KILLED and unless he had her tied up or imprisoned, that ought to break anyone's spell.  No one's schlong is that magical.  

Edited June 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

I think, for me personally, thinking back to when I first read about the ToJ and thought I came up with R+L=J all by myself (hahaha), I was enamoured with the idea of a secret love. I was 19, I was still on a soulmate kick. It wasn't until I was older that I thought to myself...this shit? It's a little bit selfish. And based on information we get at different points, I understand it more, I do - I can't without certainly say Elia wasn't in on this. To this day.

After I first had Mav (my eldest), I started to feel REALLY crappy about Elia, and how she got cast aside. But...this wasn't based on anything I read in the books. It was just my knee jerk reaction.

What I'm saying, Shimpy, is there's still more information to come. After years of thinking about this, I don't think there's ANY innocent party. I don't think that's a spoiler. It's merely my thoughts on it. (And I've had a lot of time to mull it over, lol.)

[Triskan]

Huh, okay that has me wondering, but I'm not sure a) was CoK stands for "Crows" is in one of the book titles though.

 

 

Here you have the list of the book titles and how they are commonly refered to in the fandom :

 

1 - A Game of Thrones. Aka. AGoT. Aka. Game.

2 - A Clash of Kings. Aka. ACoK. Aka. Clash.

3 - A Storm of Swords. Aka. ASoS. Aka. Storm.

4 - A Feast for Crows. Aka. AFfC. Aka. Feast.

5 - A Dance with Dragons. Aka. ADwD. Aka. Dance.

 

 

:)

Edited June 29, 2015 by Triskan

[Protar]

Huh, okay that has me wondering, but I'm not sure a) was CoK stands for "Crows" is in one of the book titles though.  Anyway, I'm super glad that you guys are looking forward to me freaking out :-)  That doesn't make me nervous at all or anything.  Yikes.  

 

Note how: It's this story.  There is no way on Earth I jumped to the conclusion: "Oh, I bet that it is something GOOD that happens, because that's how this story rolls"  .  I'm not sure which season would be CoK, and please don't tell me, because that will make me guess who isn't there.  Already I've gone down a list: Daario?  Yeah, I wouldn't really care there.  Qarth is not really my gig, so Ducksauce isn't going to matter much if he's made up.  Who else?  Shae?  If Shae is made up that would be weird, but someone already mentioned that Roz might have been a composite for prostitutes in the books, but that didn't hold water because Shae was the only developed one...

 

So I know Shae is really in the books.  Jaqen?  Now that would be a huge freaking one.   Sadly, I already know fucking Ramsay is in the books, because someone told me he has his fans.  After I took a TUMS and an Advil, I felt better after that one.  

 

Oberyn?  They could NOT have just invented Oberyn?  

 

I'm now going to quit speculating before I eliminate every damned character ever.

 

None of those characters exist. Everyone dies at the end of the second book and the other three are just poetic descriptions of the wind blowing over the graves. 

[Avaleigh]

Holy crap, now that just made an audible click and made the whole thing with the Reeds really a fun detail for the show!  We had all these theories about how they were possibly EVIL or dead.  Or sinister...or dead.  Or sinister and dead.   Ha! 

Aww, this makes me happy. :)

 

Brief spoiler not for Shimpy

I'm super excited to know what she thinks of the Jaime/Catelyn conversation and how she thinks it stacks up to the show because to me the book conversation is miles and miles better.

 

 

Huh, okay that has me wondering, but I'm not sure a) was CoK stands for "Crows" is in one of the book titles though.  Anyway, I'm super glad that you guys are looking forward to me freaking out :-)  That doesn't make me nervous at all or anything.  Yikes.  

 

Note how: It's this story.  There is no way on Earth I jumped to the conclusion: "Oh, I bet that it is something GOOD that happens, because that's how this story rolls"  .  I'm not sure which season would be CoK, and please don't tell me, because that will make me guess who isn't there.  Already I've gone down a list: Daario?  Yeah, I wouldn't really care there.  Qarth is not really my gig, so Ducksauce isn't going to matter much if he's made up.  Who else?  Shae?  If Shae is made up that would be weird, but someone already mentioned that Roz might have been a composite for prostitutes in the books, but that didn't hold water because Shae was the only developed one...

I feel stupid for having no idea who this is. I'm guessing Xaro Xoan Daxos? Obviously it can't be--super brief minor spoiler--

Duck...

[stillshimpy]

None of those characters exist. Everyone dies at the end of the second book and the other three are just poetic descriptions of the wind blowing over the graves.

 

Cool.  Then someone can show up and write about the Body Electric (if only we had electricity, so it's the Body Pulley and Windmill, with winch and trolley) and then there will be  second coming of some dude, everybody will rise up and get a pony, in a castle, for eternity.  

 

It will be fun and everything will sparkle.  

 

 

 

After years of thinking about this, I don't think there's ANY innocent party. I don't think that's a spoiler. It's merely my thoughts on it.

 

Except for just confirming that Lyanna went willingly....no, no spoilers there ;-p  (which...yeah, don't worry about that one...I didn't somehow convince myself that people were still hotly debating an abduction and rape victim's actions...because those are pretty freaking cut and dried in where anyone with a lick of sense would land in terms of debating...it would start, and pretty much end with "She'd already been through hell, of course she asked Ned to claim her son and he honored the promise because she'd been through hell."  ) 

Edited June 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Athena]

Except for just confirming that Lyanna went willingly....no, no spoilers there ;-p  (which...yeah, don't worry about that one...I didn't somehow convince myself that people were still hotly debating an abduction and rape victim's actions...because those are pretty freaking cut and dried in where anyone with a lick of sense would land in terms of debating...it would start, and pretty much end with "She'd already been through hell, of course she asked Ned to claim her son and he honored the promise because she'd been through hell."  ) 

 

OP did not confirm it. It really is still speculation about Lyanna.

[Protar]

Seriously though, seeing you trying to guess who is an invented character for the show is really fun. *Cackles maniacally*. To my recollection there are

9

recurring invented characters on the show.

 

ETA: And the odd one off, like a generic soldier given lines. And quite a few of the prostitute extras are recurring. Like they'll name them behind the scenes and they'll appear in multiple episodes, but they're not really fleshed out characters.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Protar

[Avaleigh]

To my recollection there are

8

recurring invented characters on the show.

Now I want to see if I can come up with the

8 on my own. Heh, I'm suddenly reminded of Robert telling Renly about making the 8.

 

[Mya Stone]

Oh no no, Shimpy, I'm super careful about how I word things to you!

It's still a matter of debate, the exact details of Lyanna and Rhaegar. I've just put a lot of thought into it over the last 15 years. ;)