Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[mac123x]

The moon tea evidence is hard to explain, but since the Tyrells have their own maesters and Marg is not a complete idiot, I find it hard to believe she'd go to obvious Lannister lackey Pycelle for her birth control needs.

 

That's a very good point!  After Loras was injured, Marge said she was sending her own maester to look after him, so she definitely didn't need Pycelle's tea-brewing services before that.  However, Lady Merryweather said that Pycelle was a regular visitor at Marge's court before that.  Hmm.

 

I know there are some fan theories that Lady Merryweather is a double agent and that Marge has indeed been plotting to get rid of Cercei.  Now I'm wondering if that is true and Pycelle was part of the conspiracy.

[Lady S.]

I'm not a believer in any Grand Tyrell Conspiracy post-PW, but Lady Merryweater is definitely shady and not truly Cersei's friend or someone whose words I would trust--the fact that Cersei trusts her and Cersei is always wrong is evidence enough. But if she were a Tyrell loyalist, why encourage Cersei's plotting against Marg? I don't think Marg or any of the other Tyrells would want Cersei removed from power at the cost of Marg being arrested for adultery. Maybe both Cersei and the Tyrells believed Taena was theirs, but most likely she was one of those schemers only loyal to her own interests. If she was anyone's true agent, I'd say maybe Doran or

Varys,

, someone who would want the Lannister/Tyrell alliance to collapse with neither side in a position of strength.

[Haleth]

Yeah, I think the Merryweathers are social climbers on a par with the Westerlings. I love how Taena keeps coming up with excuses for not bringing her son to court to be a friend to Tommen. And of course

they blow town as soon as Cersei's regency begins to topple.

As for the moon tea, I always assumed Pycelle was just telling Cersei what she wanted to hear since her tone in recent conversations has been blatantly threatening. Olena's granddaughter can't be so dumb as to screw around right under Cersei's nose.

[chandraReborn]

On the mention of Catherine of Aragon, I always got the feeling she held out so long for her daughter's sake. An annulment would have meant declaring Mary a bastard, thereby ruining her marriage prospects and her future. So while Catherine may have lived out her days in relative comfort, she chose to sacrifice that (and really ruined her health) for the well-being of her daughter. She was also a devoted Catholic who likely believed that agreeing to an annulment would be sinful. 

 

She and Catelyn Tully could have some good conversations...

[stillshimpy]

Yes, that's why Catherine fought the annulment so much.  For one thing, I think it can be easy to forget that people in the time period likely believed in a both literal and heaven and hell.  So Catherine being so devout meant a bunch of things and to allow for the annulment, she would have to say she consummated her first marriage, which would mean that she had lied  -- to a bunch of priests, no less,  and that (under the laws of the Catholic church) Mary wasn't just a bastard: she'd be a product of what the Catholic church would consider an incestuous relationship. 

 

So she wanted to keep her daughter's legitimacy and also, being accused of lying in the first place wasn't exactly going to sit well with the lady.  Plus, it's not like she really can be compared to Anne of Cleves.  Anne of Cleves advisors and the woman herself all knew about about a dead Catherine and headless Boleyn.  Catherine of Aragon had almost no real reason to believe she would fail.  She's a vexing person to contemplate, because she could have made her life much easier.   However, from her perspective, she was a devout and faithful woman.  Royalty was believed to be second only to God and ordained by God. 

 

So there's that a sticky problem too.  She likely would have literally believed that having her daughter wrongfully declared a bastard and a product incest would have been thwarting the will of God.  Actual God.  Meaning actual eternal damnation to a true believer in the sixteenth century. 

 

She's kind of a pain in the butt to contemplate, but it's not like I blame her for stubbornly and desperately clinging to that marriage. 

 

Back to the book: 

 

 

 

Arianne chapter: I'm not sure that Arianne wouldn't have been able to keep the secret: in her first POV chapter we saw how each one of her friends only knew a small part of the plan. That's also why I don't believe any of them was the bean-spiller.

 

Yes, but that person -- according to her own recollections -- is formed over time.  She never stops to question why her father is throwing every gummy, toothless, flaccid fool in the Kingdoms at her, because she's a kid when it starts.  She just feels hurt by her father.  Frankly, trying to whisk away Myrcella with the Sand Snakes was stupid as ever living hell.  Plus, her choice of co-conspirators was not the brightest either.  I thought for absolute sure it would be revealed that Arys Oakheart had not been in love with her, he was just happy to be getting some.  

 

Arianne is a great character, but she doesn't stop to suspect people's motives, even as she's planning a coup.  

 

So I disagree that the person who at 23 kind-of, sort-of if you tilt-your-head-just-right nearly pulled off a coup would have been a good choice to confide a long con plan to.  She's so arrogant and full of herself (which is the same thing as saying, "She's a 23 year old princess.") and what her rights are that when she's initially busted, she doesn't even get that her father won't be coming to call on her in that tower any time soon.  She is still trying to rebel and show him, like the very late adolescent she is.  She initially dresses to show ever inch of skin she can, so that her father can't treat her like a child.  All the while, she's acting a child.   She still doesn't get the enormity of what she's done.  She'd gotten a princess from the ruling family permanently maimed.  She's gotten a member of the Kingsguard to break his vows, gotten him killed and gotten herself thrown in a tower for punishment and she still sits there scheming to get another innocent person to join her in some fool scheme. 

 

I like Arianne's character a great deal, but her plan was pretty stupid for many of the reasons that Doran named and several that he didn't.  Including that they could declare Myrcella queen of the moon, stars and four leaf clovers as well as the Seven Kingdoms, but they'd have about as much luck getting the moon, stars and four leaf clovers to recognize that and pay any attention to it as they would with the Kingdoms.  

 

She was very focused on what Dorne's laws would allow and didn't have the necessary maturity to take the longer view of "....and what are the chances that she ever could rule over the Kingdoms?"  She didn't understand actual numbers and military rights.  She was a hurt young woman, who felt slighted by her father and whereas he escape plan wasn't too actively terrible, it was not exactly a master stroke when viewed as a whole. When it all goes wrong on a truly deathly scale, it still takes what sounds like weeks to sink in that she's fucked.the.dog on this one.  She still thinks she's kind of in control.  She still thinks this is about her relationship to her father and how he's hurt her.  The ever living fucking hell? 

 

That's not a person I think could have been trusted to go along with a long, patient, and carefully crafted plan at an even younger age. 

 

Even if she'd gotten Myrcella where she wanted her to be, there was a whole universe of "....and how exactly do you make the rest of that happen?  You think you know what will follow, but you've no actual reasons to believe it really will and next to no life experience to help you figure it out."  It didn't take me long to wonder what in the world Doran could possibly be thinking offering her every Oldster to Geeze up the Joint, but I did know he had to be up to something....because she was given the right to refuse all of them. 

 

Contrast to Tywin Lannister.  She didn't have the life experience or maturity to figure out: "Why does he keep setting me up with men he has to know I will reject?? What...why? There has to be a reason to go with that, since he has to no I'm going to turn down Lord Gummy of the Flaccid Lands."  

 

She's an interesting character and spirited one, but she's no born chess player. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

Well, her plan's real purpose was to raise Dorne to war so that once Quentyn would have landed with the Golden Company no one would have flocked to him. It would have been difficult for him to convince a country, in time of peace, to forsake the primogeniture inheritance law - especially because the same rule applies for Lords and Ladies in Dorne -: but to convince a country in the process of going to war against the Lannister to avenge their beloved Prince, while at the same time installing a Queen according to the same laws he would like to overthrow... well, good luck with that Quent.

 

And of course her plan wasn't the best one, but on the other hand no one ever instructed her in strategy and warfare and such things one should expect in a heiress to Dorne: Doran saw to that with her (lack of) education. So in a way she got the tools and the trappings of power - her birth, her charms, a net of friends she developed in and out the court, a posse of spirited cousins -, but not the shrewdness or the foresight for honing her plan. Her main goal in the mid-term was to raise Dorne, and I think she would have succedeed. Prospect of Dorne winning a war? Pretty slim, considering Arianne relied on a number of soldiers that is pure propaganda. But Dorne wasn't conquered with dragons either, so maybe a truce or a peace with favorable terms would have been accomplished. And Arianne would have ruled Dorne, with Quentyn counteracted.

 

As for the old suitors, we as readers, knowing it's a novel, can easily say 'ooooh, that's suspicious! It must be important later on!', but Arianne saw the letter (which said exactly what she assumed it to say) and that shaped her later thought processing: the granpas? If not to spite her, to make sure she would have never got any child, so to avoid any civil war a generation later against Quentyn's spawn. And also, even with Dorne being more 'modern' than the rest of Westeros, I suppose an older husband would expect his wife to obey him (think about Spotted Sylva's fate: it's quite clearly meant as a punishment), especially a girl freshly discarded from succession and probably shipped away from court, to remove her from any source of power or chance to plot something.

 

Her father gave her the chance to refuse them, but how long until he started to be more forceful? We also have seen daughters almost dragged to the altar, like Lysa shipped to a man who could have been her grandfather, or the same Catelyn who got relocated to the younger brother after her intended got that little choking problem. Or even Sansa, with Joffrey acting as some legal tutor (yeeew!): her marriage was a pretty heinous move even for Lannisters, yet no one could have done a thing to prevent it. Heck, even the prospect of no marriage at all would have worked in favor of Doran's plan to discard her!

 

I know this post seems too much against Doran, but I also understand him (also, in Westeros taking into account the will of someone's children is not really the main priority of a parent); I also haven't suggestions whether there was really a way for him to let her know while at the same time being dead-sure it would have still been a secret. Without her reading the letter their relationship wouldn't have gotten that sour, for sure, so maybe it would have still been manageable.

 

 

 

ETA: yes, she's no born chess player, but I think her to be smarter than average; the lack of proper education makes it difficult though truly judge her brains. She's good enough to play the game, but not (yet) to win it :)

Edited December 8, 2015 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Further proof that she was too young to be trusted?  She assumed she knew what the letter meant, well into her adult years. 

 

Like many a soap opera problem: Have you tried having a conversation as a starting point?  She just ran with assumptions and never asked "HEY DAD, WHY THE OLD FARTS?" 

 

Instead she plotted revenge.  It's childish. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

To be fair, revenge was only a small part of it. She was mostly trying to secure her own position as heiress, with the rest just as a bonus. I still think Doran made a massive mistake in not giving her the education of an heir; even for a Queen with no real power, it would be useful.

[Terra Nova]

But the letter meant what she assumed: Quentyn would have ruled Dorne in her stead, and Doran seemed dead sure about it; what should Arianne have done? Gone to him and ask about the letter and tell him what she knew, à la Ned with Cersei? 'Dad, why the old suitors? Does it mayhaps have something to do with your secret plan to enthrone Quentyn in Sunspear?'

 

Also, I would argue it was revenge, since she thinks about how no harm must come to Doran and Quentyn; she just wanted her birthright, that she perceived was being taken away from her.

 

GoTgifsandmusings on tumblr had a nice breakdown of her Queenmaker plan, which after a quick read I think contains some spoiler from ADwD, but I'm quoting an excerpt that summarizes my views on the topic (gah, it's long!):

 

Was she wrong about her birthright being threatened? Yes. Was it still a logical conclusion for her? Yes.

- At 14 she read a leader intended for Quentyn where Doran said “one day you will sit where I sit and rule all of Dorne.” There is no other way to interpret that letter, because Doran did indeed intent for Quentyn to become the Ruling Prince. How could Arianne have possibly known “oh I bet it’s because he’s secretly planning to make me queen.”
- Over the years, Arianne has never been presented with a proper suitor, potentially demonstrating that not only does Doran not particularly care about her political future, but he also doesn’t care about her happiness.
Doran relegated Arianne to the Party Planner of Dorne, putting her in charge of feasts and frolics and the entertainment of noble guests, indicating that he didn’t value her and had no intent to shape her for rule. Though this may have been a good role for the future Queen of Westeros to have, it’s an inappropriate position for the heir to Dorne.
- Following the above point, Doran sent for Oberyn twice a fortnight, yet only asked Arianne to visit him at the Water Gardens twice a year, further demonstrating his disinterest.

Keep in mind, supplanting Arianne not only deprives her of her own birthright, but has MARKED cultural implications for the rest of Dorne. Arianne talks about Anders Yronwood being “Criston Cole” reborn, because she is under the impression that Doran (backed by Yronwood) is going to replace her with Quentyn by changing the system to be that of Westerosi inheritance. So this isn’t really the kind of thing we should expect her to sit back and just blindly accept.

 

Now, here’s where I’m going to more fully defend the Queenmaker (QM) plot:

 

The QM plot was well thought-out. For starters, Arianne knew about the threat to her birthright for NINE YEARS before the events of AFFC. She played the long game. Around 16, we see her formulating plans herself, whether trying to seduce Renly, or setting out with Tyene to sneak into the Reach to meet Willas. She was never going to be contented to sit back and accept what she (very reasonably) assumed to be her fate.

 

Arianne’s plan is unique in that the first few years of it, she was still trying to figure out where she fell and if she was correct in her concerns. It’s clear that at as time elapsed, Arianne became more and more sure of her father’s intentions to set her aside. Yet she didn’t act. Even two years prior to the events of AFFC, when Doran left for the Water Gardens and her official charge was feasts and frolics, she did nothing.

 

In fact, her first proactive move in the QM plot-proper (rather than Operation Sneak Into Highgarden) came when Myrcella and Arys were sent to Dorne, much in advance of Oberyn and Joffrey’s deaths. Arianne worked to get Ser Arys in her pocket: (“Her seduction of Ser Arys had required half a year”).

This post from the reread (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118148-trial-by-folly-the-arianne-martell-reread-project-twow-arianne-i-spoilers/?p=6303292) suggests that the start of Arianne’s seduction coincided with her receiving news about Quentyn’s departure. Even if the seduction was slightly before the Planky Town report, Arianne seeing the potential value in Arys for her own cause shows incredibly foresight and resourcefulness.

 

Joffrey’s death allowed for the political ambiguity of inheritance, given Myrcella’s presence in Dorne. Myrcella inheriting over Tommen is a concept that we first hear Oberyn float to Tyrion.

 

Arianne doesn’t set out to crown Myrcella right after Joffrey’s death, or even after Oberyn’s, which results in an inflamed Dorne that is ready for a fight:

 

The Red Viper’s death had inflamed the Dornish even more, though the streets had quieted a bit since Prince Doran had confined the Sand Snakes to a tower.
__
“The prince is dead!” a woman shrilled behind him.
“To spears!” a man bellowed from a balcony.
“Doran!” called some highborn voice. “To the spears!”
Hotah gave up looking for the speakers; the press was too thick, and a third of them were shouting. “To spears! Vengeance for the Viper!” By the time they reached the third gate, the guards were shoving people aside to clear a path for the prince’s litter, and the crowd was throwing things. One ragged boy darted past the spearmen with a half-rotten pomegranate in one hand, but when he saw Areo Hotah in his path, with longaxe at the ready, he let the fruit fall unthrown and beat a quick retreat. Others farther back let fly with lemons, limes, and oranges, crying “War! War! To the spears!” One of the guards was hit in the eye with a lemon, and the captain himself had an orange splatter off his foot.

 

No, despite things Arianne does not act until two more very specific things happened:

- The Sand Snakes were imprisoned, demonstrating Doran’s willingness to lock-up family members who dare oppose him
- Doran tells Arys (who then passes it along to Arianne) about his plans to take Myrcella and Arys back to the Water Gardens in a fortnight, taking away any leverage Arianne might have had.

 

If it were not for those two events, as well as Oberyn’s death inciting Dorne and Quentyn sneaking to Essos, which Arianne interprets as the beginning of the campaign to remove her, she would not have set out to crown Myrcella. So not only do we see Arianne strategizing for 9 years, but even once a very good opportunity presents itself (Myrcella in Dorne after Joffrey’s death), Arianne is careful and reluctant to act until she feels she has to. Her use of Dorne’s newly revived bellicosity also demonstrates her resourcefulness.I also want to make the quick point that the outcome of crowning Myrcella may not have been as disastrous as Doran (or Illyrio) felt.

 

source: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/120775174422/dorne-was-awful-in-the-books-anyway-it-was-too

Edited December 8, 2015 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

That's a fair point, WSmith, but she's still showing a lot of immaturity in the aftermath.  She still thinks everything she has done is really about her conflict with her dad.  The manner in which she dresses, that she sits down to wait, again ready to just show him he's not the boss of her.  Those are the actions of a young person. 

 

 

 

But the letter meant what she assumed: Quentyn would have ruled Dorne in her stead, and Doran seemed dead sure about it; what should Arianne have done?

 

Ask him why and prove to him why he's wrong? Not being easily thwarted or fooled is part of being a strong leader.  Everything she does proves that she's too immature, still.   

 

I'm not misunderstanding her plan, by the way, I'm just saying her motives prove her immaturity.  Her inability to see past her conflict with her father, even after it goes spectacularly to shit in a manner that could very negatively impact the people of Dorne further prove her immaturity.  She's a petulant young woman, who has to be locked up, and deprived of any audience for her own drama before she can see past the end of her nose. 

 

ETA: One of the things I actually like about her is how realistically bratty she is.  She's a well drawn character, but she's still showing how green and self-involved she is and she's one of Martin's more vivid characterizations.  Even after people are maimed and dead, she still has trouble letting go of the fact that ....kid, this ain't about you and your daddy issues. 

 

ETA2:  I mean, good gods, the girl takes serious steps towards deposing her father without benefit of an adult conversation to prove her own mettle.  Going off half-cocked and ill-informed -- military strength and numbers is a big one, as is not figuring out maybe her father was actually doing something that wasn't about her with that parade of grandpas -- she's just lucky that someone told.  

 

Even not knowing that the Lannisters would just go full-on batshit "gods alone can save you now" crazy over Myrcella's abduction. 

 

But mostly it's her entire thought process and actions when she's locked up in that tower and still lacks the insight to get that her father has about a zillion other things to do, specifically because of the shit she just pulled, but also in general. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

A lot of your description could apply to Arya, who is (less than) half Arianne's age.

[stillshimpy]

A lot of your description could apply to Arya, who is (less than) half Arianne's age.

 

She does everything short of holding her breath until such time as she turns blue while locked in that tower.  She hangs out a window and practically screams, "Pay attention to me, Daddy!!!!"  She's a neat character, but the lass is a bit spoiled and yeah, I've seen Sansa Stark practically eviscerated for defying her dad at the age of eleven.  I don't agree with that because she was a child. 

 

Arianne isn't, but she tried to overthrow hers to stage a coup, overthrow her father and steal a princess of royal blood. All while toting along "I think we should kill her" McGee.   It's a bit of balls up, you know? 

 

Then after practically getting Myrcella murdered, she tries to exploit her relationship with a maid (because god knows that's likely to go well for her if discovered in most courts), because apparently she wasn't quite done trying to exploit the trust of younger people?  That was my favorite chapter.  It was a lot of fun, but it was also amusing (and clearly meant to be so when she's hanging out the damned windows screaming for the Sand Snakes) and at no point did I think "Wow that girl really has game!"  as much as "Wow, her dad has the patience of a saint."  

 

"Let me get this straight, while snooping through my personal papers, you discovered something that deeply upset you?  I'm ....sorry? that snooping hurting your feelings like that.  Did you never think to talk to me about....okay, I can see that's a 'no' , fair enough.  Apparently you never wondered why the letter was sitting around, instead of sent.  Or why I was rolling out the geezers like it was time to form a buffet line in the Catskills.  Gotcha, gotcha.  Also you have done everything but lie in the middle of this floor and drum your heels and you've gone out of your way to put a negative spin on absolutely everything rather than ask me a single question about why.  But yes, yes, you're very grown up and I am sorry for the manner in which I've...insulted...you." 

Edited December 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ImpinAintEasy]

LOL! Oh, Shimpy, I can't tell you how much I agree with you about Arianne. Not only did she never bring the letter up to Doran, but she somehow convinced herself that her brother had hired the most famous sellsword company to oppose her! She's not simply immature and foolish, she is delusional as well. She is a combination of Cersei and Arya, with a little Sansa thrown in. I don't think she is a bad person, but she is really hard to like in AFFC. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[Terra Nova]

We agree to disagree, but it really escapes me how bringing up the letter to Doran was even an option! Again, Ned vs. Cersei in the gardens, and that turned out so well! Go spill the beans to your opponent and in the process throwing away whatever advantage you may have on him, what could possibly go wrong? Being imprisoned, exiled, married off, or maybe you unfortunately trip to your death on the stairs of those high, high towers?

ETA: also, but this is another can of worms that I don't really want to open, Doran's masterplan consisted of doing nothing and ignoring the Targs he was pinning all his hopes on (he managed to have the secret marriage pact, I do not doubt he could have sent them some help through the Archon), neglecting the education of the future King and let him live like a beggar, and when he dies Doran just change which child of his has to marry the Targ (so now he one groomed to rule Dorne will be the useless King consort, the vapid brat gets Dorne). And even in case of a marriage, we have a Targ pretender with Dorne meager spears against the united seven Kingdoms (since Doran could not predict nor had a hand in the WotFK... heck, he was complaining that Tywin was already dead, so clearly in his mind he wanted him to live and fight only to be defeated)?
Wow, such plan, much mastermind. It's even worse than Arianne's military strategy.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

We agree to disagree, but it really escapes me how bringing up the letter to Doran was even an option! Again, Ned vs. Cersei in the gardens, and that turned out so well!

 

He's her father.  Not her opponent.  Asking him was always an option, she just didn't exercise it.  He wasn't going to have her killed.  Hell, she tried to have him deposed and she ....got...grounded.  It was always an option to treat him like her father, because he was thinking of her as his daughter, vs. his opponent. 

 

Actually, we met Viserys so Arianne is actually quite lucky that that plan was ruined by Drogo.  It isn't so much that I think it was a brilliant plan that would have worked seamlessly, because it clearly would not have.  Viserys was the very damaged, half-crazed version of a Targaryen and he couldn't inspire a lemming to follow him to the sea.  However, that Prince Doran had never intended to just let the murder of his sister and her children go was what impressed me.  That when one plan went awry, he had another. 

 

But I think it's ludicrous to suggest that she couldn't have asked her father why he was disinheriting her because she had something worse than that to fear from him.  She also very clearly knows that her life isn't in danger, even when she's brought back home to the tower.  She doesn't think she's going to be flogged.  She doesn't think she's going to be killed.  She barely thinks she's going to be scolded, for goodness sake.  

 

Even after committing a truly heinous act, getting people injured and killed, Arianne wasn't in fear for her life, or of her father.   The only reason in the entire world not to simply ask her father what the damn deal was would be if she feared him.  She doesn't live in fear of him.  Hell, she's ready to finally have the conversation when it all goes to hell and beyond that?  She's incensed that he is not attending her on her schedule!  Arianne did not fear her father.  Her feelings were hurt, but she didn't fear for her neck.  Hell, she and everyone else in Dorne thinks he's not blood thirsty enough and is appalled that he's done so little to answer the murder of his brother. 

 

So....that's why talking to him was always an option.  This is not some ogre or feared man.  He's someone considered soft and weak by his people and apparently he's known for being somewhat permissive of children.   Arianne's actions in that tower clearly bespeak someone who was not living in fear of this man.  She's engaging in personal theater (throwing food dramatically out of windows when she isn't wailing out of them).  The girl was not worried that some terrible punishment was about to befall her.  

 

ETA: Now if her daddy was Roose Bolton? I'd agree: Yikes, it's not like you could question him....although Arya did and lived to tell the tale, she was also made immediately aware that he was not to be questioned in such a manner. 

 

But the proof is in her actions in that tower, where she assumes he's going to immediately show up and what is she doing?  Is she praying to various and sundry gods to guide her immortal soul through the afterlife after he father  has his mammoth axe-wielding guard cleave her in two?  Nope.  She's doing the Dorne version of putting on a halter top and miniskirt because you can't tell me what to wear, dad, I'm a grown woman!.  She's hardly trembling in fear of the man.  

 

I could just keep going on about how she isn't afraid of her dad, but really very obviously, she was not. 

 

ETA2: Beside all that?  We saw exactly what happened when she got around to actually telling him "I saw that letter and my feelings were hurt...like...whoa!"  He's distressed that she saw the letter, and he explains what it meant.   

 

It was an option. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Also, I'm very clearly having more than a little bit of fun mocking this character, partially because she is one of Martin's better drawn female characters and for as much as I recognized the logic of a spoiled, very late adolescent in much of that, I like her.  I think she's clearly got the makings of someone very interesting within this story.  She's no coward and part of the reason she is so hurt by what Doran has done, is that she does love him. 

 

The fact that she does not in anyway fear for her actual life, or really even a particularly severe punishment, really seems to indicate that she loves and trusts him.  That must have compounded the hurt a great deal.  

 

Doran also made really key mistakes:  If you've got a plan and your exceptionally bright young daughter is key to it, take her into your confidence in stages.  That's an area where he is comparable to Ned Stark.  Ned picked the worst time in the damned world to share a partial plan and the reasons for it (with his eleven and nine year old, but in that case, either tell or don't...but half measure lead to really bad things). 

 

Doran takes it as read that his daughter will know he loves her and wants her happiness.  He's remiss for not telling her precisely that.  He's also remiss for not sitting her down over the years and talking to her.   He clearly treasures the concepts of childhood, freedom from responsibilities.  He was trying to inhabit the role of permissive papa so much that he completely took a pass on telling her things that she had a right to know. 

 

It would have spared him grief and saved Myrcella's face.  Arianne is so hurt because she loves her family and her father so much.  Doran actually should have trusted that much, much sooner. 

[mac123x]

She had other options besides bringing up the letter.  Simply talking to Doran about a) why do you keep sending these greybeards to me when you know I'll reject them? and b) I'm your heir, I'm eventually going to be sitting in your chair, so I'd like some responsibilities besides party-planner so I can learn to be an effective ruler.  She complained that Doran only sent for her twice a year, but there's really no reason she couldn't visit him whenever she wanted; the Water Garden's are only a couple of hours away by horseback.  Show some interest in the responsibilities she's going to inherit.  (It's a little like Stannis, who had to be reminded that a King has responsibilities to his subjects)

 

However, that Prince Doran had never intended to just let the murder of his sister and her children go was what impressed me.  That when one plan went awry, he had another.

 

A nice contrast with Arianne, who had no contingencies in case part of her plan failed.  She just assumed that she could raise her banners and people would flock to her because they were riled up about Oberyn's death and wanted war.  Maybe some would, but given how closely Doran works with the other lords in Dorne (several of them help him delay Balon Swann, for example), that's hardly a sure thing.

 

Doran's masterplan consisted of doing nothing and ignoring the Targs he was pinning all his hopes on (he managed to have the secret marriage pact, I do not doubt he could have sent them some help through the Archon), neglecting the education of the future King and let him live like a beggar, and when he dies Doran just change which child of his has to marry the Targ (so now he one groomed to rule Dorne will be the useless King consort, the vapid brat gets Dorne). And even in case of a marriage, we have a Targ pretender with Dorne meager spears against the united seven Kingdoms

 

It is odd that he wasn't providing surreptitious support for Viserys and Dany (though maybe he was since they always stayed ahead of Robert's knives).  At this point, it seems like Doran is in cahoots with Illyrio Mopatis, and would support Viserys after he got backing from the Dothraki.  40,000 Dothraki screamers plus the support of Dorne would make Viserys a formidable force against the Iron Throne.

 

Book 5 spoiler: 

At least that's the way I pictured it until finding out about Illyrio's plot with Varys and Griff.  Now it seems like Illyrio and friends intended to use Viserys and the Dothraki to overthrow Robert, then were going to get rid of Viserys and put Aegon on the throne.  I don't see how is would mesh with the secret marriage pact.

[stillshimpy]

She had other options besides bringing up the letter.  Simply talking to Doran about a) why do you keep sending these greybeards to me when you know I'll reject them? and b) I'm your heir, I'm eventually going to be sitting in your chair, so I'd like some responsibilities besides party-planner so I can learn to be an effective ruler.

 

Precisely.  She always had the option of addressing that letter and if she was afraid to do so directly -- although again his reaction to "Uh, you read my private papers, for real?"  didn't exactly shake the world with fury, or even much surprise, just distress that she was hurt by something that wasn't even really the case -- there are about a million indirect ways to address it.  

 

Including stealing a foreign princess and trying to stage a coup.  It's just that one is probably best considered after the thousand or so other and better options. 

[Terra Nova]

Oh, that Arianne is much less mature than she should be at her age is quite clear, just compare her to Catelyn, who at twenty and something years was already a mother and the Lady in charge of Winterfell. I think, in part like Jaime with his Kingslayer shtick, she reacted acting exactly how her father viewed her in her mind: 'You think I'm a silly girl good for nithing but partying? Than that's exactly what I'm gonna do!' 'ahr ahr Dad, I've convinced the knight to help me with the power of my vajaja! Wasn't it what you expected? I hope this makes you unconfortable!'

 

But most of her hurt does indeed come from her love and the perception she's been betrayed: the evidence is her attempts to elicit a response from Doran with her snapping at him at the beginning of the speech: something, anything different from Doran's apparent apathy. Even his fury would have been welcomed, it would at least proved that he somehow cares about her.

Also, when she starts to break down she asks 'what have I done for you to hate me so?', which is clearly something a daughter who loves his father would ask. She may not truly fear for her life (at this point, after years of Doran doing nothing, and months after Oberyn's death), but she may fear what Doran could have told her ('I don't love you'). And in fact her first reaction to the letter was crying to sleep.

And then there's also Doran's attempt to recall her childhood time at the Water Gardens, that she first rebuffs, and then later, when they start to reconcile, she likes to relive with him: in this occasion we see how she would have run to him, and not to her mother, everytime she got hurt. So I guess reading the letter must have crushed her.

Also, clearly it's difficult to completely separate the father-daughter dynamics from the Prince-heiress one, so I can't really fault any of them for the shortsightedness or for not being that rational.

 

@max123x:

 

yeah, problem being though that the Dothraki screamers would have been only 10'000, as we see in Dany's POVs. Which is still roughly the amount of spears Dorne can raise, but a cavalry that doesn't even know how to flank infantry wouldn't have been that successful in a Westerosi campaign (there are a lot of very good topics on the Dothraki warfare on Westeros.org, and all of them point to the Dothraki faring less than spectacularly in Westeros).

 

Also, I don't think the 'knives' ever existed apart than in Viserys mind: there's no mention of them in the text prior the botched poisoning attempt, nor from Robert nor Varys, and I don't think Jon Arryn capable of that. Even Daenerys in AGoT questions Viserys' tales on the subject; it's only in later books that she starts repeating that story and believing it (and that's pretty telling in itself, I would add).

 

Maybe Varys&Co didn't even want for the Dothraki to be successful, just a way to let the realms bleed before the main invading force landed. It's still pretty up in the air, maybe they didn't even really needed Viserys to die, they could have made him swallow Aegon and end up supporting him. When I wrote my first comment about the utter lack of education of Vis&Dany I wasn't specifically thinking on fAegon, but yes, you see how well groomed he is: geometry, languages, history, a septa for the Faith, a knight for the manly martial prowess. All in all, the marriage pact was so secret that I doubt Varys knew about it. Nor I think his plan to involve Vis&Dany, even though as just pawns, was hatched before the death of ser Darry and the two of them being being reduced to almost begging

[WSmith84]

@ Terra Nova

 

I seem to recall Renly saying that they never bothered killing the Targaryen children because Robert 'made the mistake of listening to Jon Arryn.' So I would agree that the 'knives' likely just existed in Viserys' mind.

[Terra Nova]

Yes, Thanks WSmith, I was sure there was some quote making it clear but I couldn't remember precisely. The quote you provided is in Eddard VIII:

 

 

Lord Renly shrugged: "The matter seems simple enough to me. We ought to have had Viserys and his sister killed years ago, but His Grace my brother made the mistake of listening to Jon Arryn."

Edited December 9, 2015 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

That moment with Renly saying that was a nice case of retro-layering.  Robert Baratheon's rage towards all things Targaryen seems to be something that increases with proximity.  His reaction, in the books, to Elia's murdered children is disgusting.  Truly, it's reprehensible, but it also didn't explain a couple of key things:  Why does Ned Stark loves this guy like a brother?  Also, why aren't the remaining Targaryen children dead if they were such beggars that they had to wander around, looking for shelter?  

 

On the Ned thing, it's clear from the first moments that he has genuine affection for Robert, when he is grateful to/feels love towards Robert for wanting to go directly to Lyanna's tomb to pay his respects.  On the Targaryen children, it also made sense because it's one thing to shed no tears over the murdered children of the man who stole away his intended, although Robert took it steps further and practically spiked a football on their dead bodies, while doing a victory dance, but at least knowing that he could be persuaded to see reason (as he was on his death bed also) at least hinted at there being more to the man as a whole.  

 

Arianne and Doran's relationship not being included on the show was such a poor choice, I think.  In part because the show has very few healthy, loving relationships.  It's not a family drama, but you know, it's actually unrealistic how few emotional attachments of anything other than a poisonous nature the characters on the show have.  So it was desperately needed to add some narrative balance. 

 

I know I've made this comparison before, but reaching back to BSG's Black Market. In BSG there's an attempted genocide that wipes out all but about 50k of the human race and they flee the Cylons, in the reimagined series there's an episode about a Black Market ship, that among other things, seemingly has a thriving child pornography and prostitution ring.  It's widely considered one of the worst, if not the worst episode of that series, because among many other things: If there are only fifty thousand people in the human race left, and there are enough pedophiles in amongst that number to keep that ring going strong?  Why exactly am I not supposed to immediately join Team Cylon: Kill 'em All 'cause They All Suck?  

 

Sometimes the TV series suffers from that kind of thing too.   Jon Snow's love of all things Wall and his attachment to his "brothers" always makes me wonder how terrible is his judgment?  Out of the entire group there are six people who don't actively make you want to puke on a regular basis and might even be considered good guys (on the show, book is a different story).  I could just go on and on there, but the show really has done strange things like ask a viewer to give a shit that Ramsay got his heart's desire, when pretty much to a man, the people in the audience just want him to die, disappear, or spontaneously turn into a pile of actual dog shit. 

 

So instead of a rather touching scene of someone finding out that, no her father had tremendous faith in and love for her but they've been their own worst enemies...and bonus! It doesn't appear as if either is being too actively shadowed by a terrible fate that will punish them for being softies in that harsh, harsh world. we go the season five

regrettable choice of trying to sell a sweet, ill-fated romance with Tyrstan and Myrcella and then the almost laughable "I'm glad you're my father, as well as my uncle and I've always known and I think it's  *dies* " thing.  The show almost immediately punishes anyone for loving someone in anything resembling a healthy manner.

 

It gets old, but worse still it really does challenge a viewer's ability to actually care about what happens to these primarily awful people.  Flawed characters are more interesting because they are more relatable and human.  But having a world of stampeding jackasses and sadists poses it's own problems in the "Okay, that's not actually realistic.  Real people have more shading than that."  It stops being off-putting, becomes unbelievable and impossible to relate to and then it veers into boring with a side of gross.  

 

Eventually it leads to "Declare me team White Walker.  Or, we could sell everyone to that Black Market barge, except all of those butt munches died of dysentery or exposure anyway.  On purpose, pretty much, so that one is out".  

 

I liked the chapter because it was clever, it had a clear and logical plot.  It was funny, it was fascinating, but it also contained reasons to give a shit about these characters.  Arianne -- for as much as I am mocking her about being a spoiled kid -- is a hurt young woman, who actually loves her father tremendously and by the end of the chapter, she learns that far from judging her as unfit, he loved her dearly all along.  

 

It was nice.  It's what makes getting attached to characters worthwhile, instead of season five

doing shit like having Stannis tell Shireen he loved her and always had, and whereas because it's this show it seemed clear that someone in that scene was going to die, it actually was just  a setup so that when the show kicked the viewer's in the stomach as hard as it humanly could, they've be far more likely to actually hurl, vs. simply wanting to.

 

Even though I'm no fool, I get that that Doran is a likely goner, at least Arianne got to understand that, if anything, he loved her best of all. 

[mac123x]

Good point about Viserys's fear of assassination being all in his head.  That does make it weird that Doran didn't do anything to support them, though I guess it's in keeping with his "two can keep a secret if one of them is dead" approach to things -- he didn't help them out to minimize the chances that someone would find out.  It makes me wonder if he had some other schemes cooking that didn't involve the Targ kids.  He said that he's been working at Tywin's downfall ever since Elia died; surely that consisted of more than just signing a secret marriage pact 12 years ago and leaving it at that.

 

Doran is one of my favorite non-POV characters, mainly because he comes across as so different from the impulsive, non-strategic thinkers that litter these books.  I hope he actually is a player in the Game, and not just someone who stares at children playing in the water park and fantasizes about how he'll get his revenge. 

[bobbybuilderton]

The lack of hope/positive moments in the show is a point that many a book reader has made. Welcome to the club lol. Between stoneheart, arianne and Doran, and some moments coming up, there are so few thing in the show that make you think there is even a chance of assholes getting what's coming to them. Darkness induced apathy, indeed

[ImpinAintEasy]

The lack of hope/positive moments in the show is a point that many a book reader has made. Welcome to the club lol. Between stoneheart, arianne and Doran, and some moments coming up, there are so few thing in the show that make you think there is even a chance of assholes getting what's coming to them. Darkness induced apathy, indeed

 

You see Stoneheart as being hopeful? She orders Brienne and Pod to be hanged. She is trying to kill Jaime. Yes, she is trying to kill as many Freys and Boltons as possible, but the collateral damage could be even more significant. There is nothing hopeful about that character, IMO.

 

[nksarmi]

Okay, so that made up for every word of Cersei's dull exploration of palace intrigue in trying to get her daugher-in-law done in and hideously maiming lute players in the process.  What does George R. R. Martin have against musicians, I wonder?  They all meet hideous ends or are terrible human beings.  This is the second one that has been whittled in the process of being made to lie to suit someone's plan. 

 

So I like Prince Doran in the show and so far I like him best of any of the lead male characters.  He's smart, he's patient and he's actually good at all of this.  If he'd filled Arianne in on his plans it might have saved him a lot of grief, but he's also right, she wouldn't have had the sense to keep the secret, because she wouldn't understand the stakes.  He also couldn't really be seen to be instructing her too often either.  

 

Smart move on presenting her with every doddering fool on the edge of his dotage as a possible match. 

 

She was engaged to Viserys (dodged a bullet there) and now Quentyn is off to try and propose to Daenerys?  That is entirely wonderful.  Poor Doran, surrounded by hot-heads and only unable to trust his daughter with everything because she wouldn't think to distrust enough people and someone always tells.  

 

The Dorne material has proved fascinating and is some of my favorite stuff from this book.  

 

There haven't been many times when I've been livid at the changes from book to show - but Dorne takes the cake for me.  When they cast AS to play Doran I was so excited and then season five happened.  I have NO words.

[John Potts]

I don't think the assassins were entirely in Viserys' head - even if Bobby only intermittently cared about eliminating the last Targaryens, there would always be folks around who thought that eliminating Visy & Dany would earn them the King's favour. So assassination was a real possibility throughout their exile, even if there was nobody throwing money around to make it happen.

 

As for Doran - yeah, I get that "Two can keep a secret - If one of them is dead," but there's a gulf between "Tell your plan to the naïve teen and expect her not to spill it" and "Tell her nothing." Arianne is believable as a teenager, though (just like Sansa Stark is in Book 1).

[vibeology]

There haven't been many times when I've been livid at the changes from book to show - but Dorne takes the cake for me.  When they cast AS to play Doran I was so excited and then season five happened.  I have NO words.

 

This. As crushed as I was to lose Arianne, I figured they'd be morphing the sand snakes into her and at least Doran would still be awesome. AS is such a good actor, how could his big scene go wrong? Season 5 Dorne was when I decided that I could watch the show out of curiosity but it was never going to be must-see TV for me again.

[nksarmi]

This. As crushed as I was to lose Arianne, I figured they'd be morphing the sand snakes into her and at least Doran would still be awesome. AS is such a good actor, how could his big scene go wrong? Season 5 Dorne was when I decided that I could watch the show out of curiosity but it was never going to be must-see TV for me again.

I was so convinced we would get something that immediately after the season five finale aired,

I insisted that "bad pussy" sandsnake slipped a vial of antidote into Bron's pocket and he is going to save Myrcella and we will still get the damn queen making plot next season. My denial has since lifted lol.

On the show, I can't bring myself to even care if Dany ever crosses the narrow seas anymore. I was getting there in the books as well, but Doran made me interested in her again. I can't help but be disappointed that AS didn't get to make the speech and I feel like Dorne has been robbed of all it's book glory.

But the absence of any plots related to the fact that women can inherit and rule in Dorne bugs me on a whole other level. Everything about book four seems to center around can women come into power and rule. Can Yara lead the Iron Islands? Can

LF use Sansa (eventually) to take power in the North?

Can Cersei or Marg rule through Tommen? Can Arianna led Dorne? Can Dorne take the Iron Throne away from Tommen through Myrcella? Can Dany rule and eventually conquer Westerous? Can Stoneheart bring justice for the wrongs done to her family? And so on and so on. In a male-dominated world - book four is all about the women and Dorne is a central part of that. I hate, hate, hate that they dropped it.

[Delta1212]

I've got to say, I'd forgotten just how good this final string of chapters is. For all the flak this book takes, it really does have a very strong finish.

[bobbybuilderton]

You see Stoneheart as being hopeful? She orders Brienne and Pod to be hanged. She is trying to kill Jaime. Yes, she is trying to kill as many Freys and Boltons as possible, but the collateral damage could be even more significant. There is nothing hopeful about that character, IMO.

no, the character isn't hopeful. What she represents purely from a storytelling point of view is some kind of punishment for the people who have hurt characters we like and care about. The character is an asshole but as far as the reader goes she's still a possible source of positive feelings that the show sort of lacks apart from savoir figures like dany or jon, or jokes about tyrion's penis

[magdalene]

I have never felt that Stoneheart is a heroic figure and worth rooting or cheering for. More of a cautionary tale and horror story. And that's not Cat, it's an abomination.  I think it speaks volumes that GRRM 

has given Stoneheart no POV.

[Triskan]

I've got to say, I'd forgotten just how good this final string of chapters is. For all the flak this book takes, it really does have a very strong finish.

 

Totally ! 

 

From Brienne VII (the fight at the inn), it's one hell of a ride to the end ! 

Except maybe the next chapter coming for shimpy, which is good, but maybe less intense than the rest of them.

[Delta1212]

Totally !

From Brienne VII (the fight at the inn), it's one hell of a ride to the end !

Except maybe the next chapter coming for shimpy, which is good, but maybe less intense than the rest of them.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's still one of my favorite chapters. Although, even if it isn't the one I'm thinking of, almost all of the remaining chapters are among my favorite.

[WindyNights]

@nksarmi Spoiler that info about Sansa in your post. Shimpy' not there yet.

[Mya Stone]

@nksarmi Spoiler that info about Sansa in your post. Shimpy' not there yet.

I did it.

[nksarmi]

Mya, thanks - I tried to phrase it such a way that it sounded like I was talking about the season five plot (thought I remained unsure if I should spoiler it for that reason).  Let me just say that not spoiling people for the show's season five is almost harder than not spoiling for the books!!!!

Edited December 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[Haleth]

Why are we using spoiler tags for season 5 of the show? Haven't we all seen it?

[WindyNights]

For the people who haven't that are lurking

[Delta1212]

Why are we using spoiler tags for season 5 of the show? Haven't we all seen it?

This was sort of covered early in the thread. There are people reading/participating in the thread who haven't seen season 5 because they've quit the series until after the books are finished because the show has now inches passed where the books ended in a couple of plot lines and they don't want the show to spoil the books for them.

[Alayne Stone]

Regarding Stoneheart, guys ...

Maybe even keep the fact that Stoneheart is a cautionary tale under a spoiler tag from here on out. Shimpy hasn't gotten to the extent of Stoneheart's single-minded vengeance scheme yet.

 

Shimpy, you've essentially hit on the nail why so many people love the Dorne storyline and the true value of it being that it is a story about a father and daughter who love each other deeply but both have the same tragic flaw of simply not communicating with the other. I feel like the creators just saw Dorne as being this "exotic" and "other" place that was sexually liberated and had scrappy fighters and just ... that's it. That's all they drew from the story. Yet it obviously goes much deeper than that. Cutting out the main protagonist was a huge mistake. I honestly wish they hadn't have even gone there at this point.

 

My feeling is that ... as the books progress they simply have less of a grasp on the themes and that's in part because they are so busy with writing the show now. We criticize them (rightfully, IMO) for basically just writing down a bullet point list of plot points they need to hit and who cares how they actually get there, but when you consider the fact that book 5 hadn't even come out until after season 1 aired ... is it really any surprise? They simply don't have the time to sit down and analyze each chapter the way we do. And now they are so deep into it and we know that they literally only get the bullet proofed outline from GRRM with the stuff going forward. It's not an excuse though. They could have easily hired a consultant for the books but they simply chose not to go that route.

 

The result is the nihilistic, everything is just so downright depressing and all these people are horrible and not even worth saving, let the mother fing wall down already and let the purge begin because the white walkers are officially the only faction worth rooting for anymore crap we got on the show last season.

 

Funny you should also mention how weird it was that they presented Ramsay to us as someone we should sympathize. Gotgifsandmusings/theculturalvacuum have done some amazing retrospectives on the plot points from season 5 ... attempting to make sense of them as entities outside of the books to figure out what story the show was trying to tell/who the protagonist was and when it comes to the Winterfell storyline, season 5 spoilers ...

 

They determine Ramsay is actually the protagonist. He's the one with a fully fleshed out arc. He's the one given a really twisted and perverse "love triangle." He's the one seeking acceptance from his father and actually given an opportunity to prove that he's worthy of it. They even observe that the music playing in the background of the Roose/Ramsay scene where they talk about Walda's pregnancy is sweeping and uplifting ... the kind you would play for a hero in a scene that is meant to show his determination and what have you. It's so very, very bizarre.

 

The show really took the whole "Anyone can die" thing with this series and just ... ran with it. Somewhere along the line they forgot that their audience is supposed to care about what happens to the protagonists.

[stillshimpy]

Right, there are actually people reading the thread who haven't seen season five, but are interested in the discussion. 

 

Okay, Sansa and Brienne's chapters are both behind me.  For Sansa's I was mainly distressed by things that were revealed.  One being that poor (book) Mya Stone was indeed abandoned by the man she loved, as he had to undertake a more prudent match.  Ugh.  I know it is a realistic depiction of a world where marriages were used as ways to form alliances and band families together, but it still just sucks because it almost always the women who suffer terribly from that in all directions.  If a woman is high born, then she is sold like a goat in almost all instances.  If she's not, she's used and cast aside.  Points to Martin for also including what warped Petyr beyond the telling of it:  being judged and found wanting by that punishing standard.  

Still it was one of the sadder notes in the book, because of it was realistic.  Notes like Riverrun having yielded were expected, but again, just kind of sad.  The poor Tullys are as good as gone from the face of that Earth.  

 

Also, it was with tremendous dismay that I read of Sansa's betrothal to Harry Whatshisbucket. Season five

so I take it that this guy is likely going to be ever bit the same amount of giddy fun Ramsay has been to Sansa?  So Sansa will end up horribly mistreated anyway.  Great.  Fuckadoodledoo.  

 

Although I admit, I prefer the book's version of dealing with poor Little Robert, everyone around him knows the kid is a goner and are making plans accordingly. It's sad, but again, it's realistic that Petyr would attempt to use her as a sort of Lady Jane Grey figure.  I have a feeling Sansa's going to be atoning for her perceived misdeeds in much the same way that poor girl did.  

 

Brienne's chapter was primarily troubling and grotesque.  I guess I don't really understand Lady Stoneheart at all.  She seems to have no real relationship to Catelyn Stark and the whole "Lord Beric kissed her and passed on the spark of light" made me wonder afresh what the hell the Lord of Light can possibly be, because whatever it is, it sounds more demonic than anything else. 

 

I have to admit I was more annoyed by the "yet another cliffhanger" style ending where Brienne is left in peril and you lot had to sit around try to puzzle out what the one word was for something like five years.   This has not been a particularly satisfying read and I didn't wait half a decade for it.  That's only if the next book actually answers those questions.  So my reaction to the "she screamed one word" was mostly, "Fuck off."  

[Haleth]

That's two words. ;)

[Delta1212]

That's two words. ;)

I know it's mixing works, but perhaps she took a page from Foul Ol Ron and said "Buggrit!"

[WindyNights]

@shimpy Don't worry about Sansa. Season 5 is so different from what GRRM is writing that you can't really take what happens in season 5 as an indiciation of what'll happen in the books. Even the fates of characters are different.

And GRRM has confirmed that he's not interested in writing a POV character getting raped so yeah. (I think)

You can actually figure out what Brienne's fate is in the chapter. It's just that GRRM likes to keep you thinking. Brienne screamed a word is actually the clue.

Big hint : earlier in the chapter

LS asks Brienne to pick between the "sword" or the "noose"

About Lady Stoneheart, GRRM said this:

"Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.”

Continues Martin: “I’ve talked about Gandalf [in The Lord of the Rings], and how the impact of his death was enormous. When I was a 12-year-old kid reading The Fellowship of the Ring and ‘Fly, you fools!’ and he goes into the chasm … it was ‘Holy shit! [J.R.R. Tolkien] killed the wizard! That’s the guy who knew everything. How are they going to destroy the ring without him?’ And now the ‘kids’ have to grow up because their ‘daddy’ is dead. If Gandalf could die, anybody could die. And then just a few chapters later Boromir goes down. Those two deaths created in me the ‘anyone could die’ thing. At that point I was expecting [Tolkien] to pick off the whole Fellowship one by one. And then we also think in The Two Towers that Frodo is dead, since Shelob stung him and wrapped him up. I really bought it because he set me up with those other deaths. But then, of course, he brings Gandalf back. He’s a little strange at first, but then he’s basically the same old Gandalf. I liked the impact we got from him being gone.”

Martin’s explanation initially sounds like an argument against including Lady Stoneheart, but Martin then noted: “Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on.”

Edited December 10, 2015 by WindyNights

[Constantinople]

GoT UO: BookDorne is largely a boring time suck and the only significant question is which Martell/Sand is the stupidest and/or the most thinly characterized. This isn't to say that TVDorne is any good because I would have happily skipped every scene in TVDorne to date (other than, perhaps, for the scenery). But I was tremendously disappointed when I actually read the books after hearing about how awesome Dorne was! I hope BookDorne seriously ups its game, but given the liberties D&D felt free to take with TVDorne, I fear BookDorne may not.

 

Why are we using spoiler tags for season 5 of the show? Haven't we all seen it?

 

This was sort of covered early in the thread. There are people reading/participating in the thread who haven't seen season 5 because they've quit the series until after the books are finished because the show has now inches passed where the books ended in a couple of plot lines and they don't want the show to spoil the books for them.

Why?

This is a GoT thread on previously.tv, not previously.book.

The GoT spoiler rules are complicated enough without having to worry about spoiling people who choose not to watch the show, and to keep track of rules that aren't listed in Mya's note at the top of every page. Are there other rules that aren't in May's note? And what happens when some people choose to watch Season 5 but not 6? Where does it end?

Besides, if some people choose not to watch a season of GoT, there are Book Talk threads in the Past Seasons section. If they want to limit it to one thread, rather than 40 for those 40 episodes, perhaps there can be a single Book Talk thread in the S04 section of Past Seasons for Seasons 1-4.

[WindyNights]

@Constantinople I'm sorry you feel that way. I liked Book Dorne myself. Arianne and Doran are pretty fleshed out. The SS are only in one chapter but they get plenty of character for that one chapter they show up in. And Dorne is probably one of the best place to live in the Seven Kingdoms.

Although I do admit that I'm an outlier as I actually like the Ironborn plot a lot and find them more intriguing than the Dornish. They make nice parallels to each other too.

Euron is like the Big Bad Kraken who aims to make an alliance with Dany in comparison to Doran's peace-loving good guy who aims to do the same.

Edited December 10, 2015 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

This is a GoT thread on previously.tv, not previously.book.

 

Because this isn't actually a general book thread, Constantinople. 

 

Besides, if some people choose not to watch a season of GoT, there are Book Talk threads in the Past Seasons section. If they want to limit it to one thread, rather than 40 for those 40 episodes, perhaps there can be a single Book Talk thread in the S04 section of Past Seasons for Seasons 1-4.

 

There are threads where you can discuss the TV series with book talk in the show forum. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

They aren't rules, per se, but they ARE niceties I like to extend to our non-show watching readers.

Yes, this may be a thread on a television site, but this sub forum is specifically for the books, and there are quite a few book readers that didn't watch S5.

[Delta1212]

GoT UO: BookDorne is largely a boring time suck and the only significant question is which Martell/Sand is the stupidest and/or the most thinly characterized. This isn't to say that TVDorne is any good because I would have happily skipped every scene in TVDorne to date (other than, perhaps, for the scenery). But I was tremendously disappointed when I actually read the books after hearing about how awesome Dorne was! I hope BookDorne seriously ups its game, but given the liberties D&D felt free to take with TVDorne, I fear BookDorne may not.

Why?

This is a GoT thread on previously.tv, not previously.book.

The GoT spoiler rules are complicated enough without having to worry about spoiling people who choose not to watch the show, and to keep track of rules that aren't listed in Mya's note at the top of every page. Are there other rules that aren't in May's note? And what happens when some people choose to watch Season 5 but not 6? Where does it end?

Besides, if some people choose not to watch a season of GoT, there are Book Talk threads in the Past Seasons section. If they want to limit it to one thread, rather than 40 for those 40 episodes, perhaps there can be a single Book Talk thread in the S04 section of Past Seasons for Seasons 1-4.

Because it's a special sort of thread as it pertains to spoilers and we're all mostly ok with putting in some minimal effort to be accommodating to people who've asked for it?