Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[ImpinAintEasy]

I thought NCW was so funny when, asked if he'd read the books, he replied "Like Maisie, my mum read them....". He seems fun.

LOL! Nicolaj has said that he knew about Jaime's arc through the third book before he got the role, and it was a main selling point for him. He hasn't read the books, but he has done everything short of that, including spending time reading fan sites and message boards about the books/show. I always found his insight on the character during interviews to be very in line with the book version, unlike Lena Headey, who has definitely created a separate character from the books(not that I'm complaining).

[Alayne Stone]

It's never confirmed that the grave digger is Sandor, but that's the general assumption amongst the fan base.

 

And yes, from all the commentaries I've heard with NCW, it seems like he had a pretty solid grasp of Jaime through the first three seasons. They just ... dropped the ball after that. The Sept scene was poorly executed but I think it was the decision to not include the revelation of Tysha that did his character in. After that his characterization just fell into this neverending free fall. I understand they wanted to keep the actor of Bronn along for comic relief but the decision to include Jaime in all of that just made his character suffer more. Jaime's character is not there for comic relief. He has a far greater significance.

 

And I'm right there with you Shimpy with the whole Meryn Trant gorefest just being all ... ugh. Arya's crime is deliberately morally grey in the books. They took that away with black hatter Meryn Trant. But what can I say. I don't get the changes any more than you do.

 

I feel like you're going to be feeling more of the ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we all kind of feel as you progress through the rest of book 4 and book 5.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Drunken Grumkin]

LOL! Nicolaj has said that he knew about Jaime's arc through the third book before he got the role, and it was a main selling point for him. He hasn't read the books, but he has done everything short of that, including spending time reading fan sites and message boards about the books/show.

 

Nikolaj has said he read book three, in an interview from before season three's filming:

 

http://www.avclub.com/article/nikolaj-coster-waldau-aka-jaime-lannister-talks-hi-98673

[Terra Nova]

By now Shimpy has grasped how foreshadowing works in these books, so having Stranger not gelded and quite unhappy about that prospect is proof enough to me that Sandor won't spend his days praying on the Isle.

I alsolike how the Elder Brother story really resembles Sandor's (angry, drinking, a lady above his station, a fondness for his own horse).

NCW is actually the only Lannister sibling to have read the books, so Lena Headey unconventional views on Cersei all come from what the writers told her, hence the completely different take on the character. That said, show!Cersei is at least a very consistent character in itself, something that can't really be said for others.

 

ETA: Also, Shimpy may recall now that the first time Arya entered the House of Black and White she spotted a blind novice who let the warmth of the candles help him find them and snuff them. A 'real' blind person, or someone like Arya?

of course, blindness seems pretty much a step in the training, not a mere punishment

Edited December 1, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ImpinAintEasy]

Meryn Trant didn't necessarily replace Daeron, (Book 6 sample chapter spoiler)

he replaced Raff The Sweetling, who Arya kills in her 'Mercy' chapter. All the way down to Raff having a thing for young girls.

I missed the subtlety of her killing the Nights Watch deserter, and being punished not for a revenge kill, but for doing what her father would do. The show, as always, wanted to use a known character in the role, but instead of say, having Arya slice his femoral artery, as Yoren taught her in season 2

and how she makes her kill in book 6

, they decided to go with gore. 

[Terra Nova]

Meryn Trant didn't necessarily replace Daeron, (Book 6 sample chapter spoiler)

Yes, but (book 6 spoiler)

Raff the Sweetling was already worked in, in some way, Season 4, in the brawl at the Inn, not just as one of the names on Arya's list, but also because of the way she killed him, by re-enacting Lommy's death. And shots of Season 6 seem to confirm Arya's going to the Mummers, so basically the single Mercy chapter has been used at least three times by now. And the gorish, frenzied kill was already moved from the Inn (books) to the unnamed Frey soldier Arya killed in 3x10. So the almost all the single elements of her killings are in the series, just shifted around.

[Haleth]

Sandor Clegane has unfinished business.  I've no doubt that he's the grave digger in the Quiet Isle... for now.

[mac123x]

Really getting into the meat of the "why people like Jaime" chapters.  His confrontation with Lancel was, for me, the point where I could really see his character growth.  Old Jaime probably would have just killed Lancel on the spot for boinking Cercei.  Now, he essentially forgives Lancel and puts the blame where it really lies, with Cercei.  His subconscious has been trying to tell him something (hence the "...Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy..." mantra), and now that he's gotten confirmation that Cercei has been lying to him, he can't avoid it any more.

 

Also, I love the peripheral Lannisters we get to meet.  Daven just seems so normal, and Gemma is a delight.  It's a nice contrast with how damaged Tywin's children are because of him.  Gemma has one of my favorite lines too:  "Jaime, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year"

 

Sandor Clegane has unfinished business.  I've no doubt that he's the grave digger in the Quiet Isle... for now.

 

The part that convinced me is that somehow they got his vicious warhorse across the "Path of Faith" mudflats.  I can't picture anyone but Sandor being able to lead horse through that tortuous path without getting kicked in the head.

[Eegah]

The Elder Brother is now the popular choice for the role that Ian McShane is playing, after his vague hint about it. I was hoping for Randyll Tarly myself, but I can also see this.

[Delta1212]

And this starts to get into why I think "rock bottom" for Jaime as an "addict" is Tyrion telling him that Cersei has been sleeping around behind his back, rather than getting his hand chopped off.

To be sure, that's a big moment. Jaime's fighting prowess is a huge part of his identity and losing his ability to be the 'man of action' (or at least having it severely curtailed) forces him to be a bit more introspective than he probably has been up to now, and take a hard look at his life and choices up to that point.

But the other lynchpin of his identity is his relationship to Cersei, and he clings to that as hard as ever. He's like an alcoholic who finally begins to recognize the damage he's been doing and wants to make up for it, but at the same time decides to drown his guilt in a bottle.

It's not until Tyrion strikes a blow at Jaime's illusions about Cersei and his belief that she sees their relationship the same way he does that the fantasy in his mind start to slowly unravel and he has an opportunity to break out of some of the patterns of behavior (mostly revolving around Cersei) that have been the root cause of most of the grief that he has caused.

Until he finally manages that, he's still an addict who maybe wants to improve his behavior but doesn't want to give up his drug.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Delta1212

[nksarmi]

Given that I love Jon and Tyrion in the books, four is not my favorite of the novels, but since I read them after the show began - I at least did not have to wait years for book five!  But within book four, I believe Jamie's journey is an absolute gem to read.  I would have never thought that I'd enjoy reading the PoV of the character who threw Bran from a window to protect that fact that he was bonking his sister, but I did enjoy getting in Jamie's head.  While the show gave Jamie one delightful scene with

his daughter

in season five - it outright slashed everything that MATTERED about Jamie in book four and took his story to book spoiler just in case shimpy hasn't already figured this out and also season five spoiler 

a place where it never, ever goes in the books!!!!! And on top of everything else - in the show, he moves closer to acceptance of his love for Cersei and their offspring rather than away from Cersei like he's doing in the books.  I do NOT understand what the show is doing with Jamie - not. at. all.

.

 

But yea, Jamie in the Riverlands is one of my favorite pieces of character development that GRRM does.

 

Oh and I want to echo that even though Ayra is on a fairly similar path in the books and show - unlike what the show did, I believe her killing of the NW deserter shows that she is Stark though and through - no matter how much she tries to become "no one."  The show went for gore instead of the identity crisis Arya is really having - which very much parallel's Sansa's.

Edited December 1, 2015 by nksarmi

[WSmith84]

@ nksarmi

 

I confess,

I detest that scene with Myrcella. Why would she be happy to find out she's actually a bastard born of incest, and that the war people have been fighting to remove her, Joffrey and Tommen was legitimate? Why would she be happy deceiving her future husband, who thinks he's marrying a trueborn Lannister/Baratheon, but is instead getting an 'abomination in the sight of Gods and men'? Incest goes against everything their religion and culture stands for, even if the Targs managed to get away with it. Plus, it's not like Jaime has been any more of a father to her than Robert was. I think the only reason they had her reacting so gladly to it was to up the shock value when she keeled over.

[Andeleisha]

New person here! I've mostly been a lurker on this site, and the Unsullied threads were always such fun to read! I had noped out on them for the second half of season 5, so I was thrilled when I checked in a few days ago and saw that shimpy was going to read the books! It's been unbelievably entertaining to read shimpy's reactions to the books having seen the show first, and also very cool how everyone has been giving her basically a guided tour of all the fan theories out there. (Man, that merling theory?) And in case anyone was wondering how long it takes to read 60 pages of forum posts the answer is 2 days...and one very late night :)

I'm so glad to catch up at just this point, because these Jaime chapters are some of the most beautiful in the entire series. It's like he's growing up on the page right in front of you. I agree with what everyone else has been saying that this is when they really fell in love with Jaime as a character, and I think that leads to this larger conversation about "What does it mean to be good?" We, as readers, were set up to capital-h-Hate Jaime at the beginning of this story. But then we got to know him in earlier chapters, and now we are seeing him actively try to do good things and be a better person. As readers, we have to try to reconcile these contradictory things we know about Jaime, which really amplifies the emotional impact of what Jaime himself is going through.

One of the great things about Martin's writing, in my opinion, is that while his character and world building is incredibly rich, he still leaves a lot of things open to the interpretation of the reader (See: conversations in this thread about Lyanna, Jeyne Westerling). I think that goes back to some of his earliest ideas about the books, where he wanted to subvert and deconstruct various character types and tropes. Even when he isn't doing that, he's deliberately leaving enough space for people to have a debate about what is going on and why, which I think deepens the readers engagement with the themes and arcs he has created.

Bringing this back to Jaime: we all absolutely love Jaime as a character. But do we just love...Jaime? Should we love him? Do we forgive him for pushing Bran out a window? Is forgiveness or repentance even possible? Can we still like him and think he is a good person, even though he has done bad things in the past, and if so, at what point does he cross that line? Is forgiveness or repentance of some kind necessary for Jaime not to be a "problematic fave"?

I don't know where Martin comes down on these questions, but I love that he has gotten so many people talking about this. I don't think the show has done that.

Shimpy, have you read the next Arianne chapter yet? If so this is safe to read.

Fire and Blood!

I remember reading this chapter for the first time, and my mouth went absolutely dry when Doran told Arianne how her betrothed had died. That was the moment when I realized that shit was about to get real.

Also shimpy, this, back on page 41?

True story: Two or three days beforehand, David Cole asked if we cared if the episode titles were posted beforehand and I blithely replied: "Hey, as long as the episode title isn't "Joffrey dies at long freaking last" I can't imagine it would be a problem."

And...basically the one time I guessed entirely right, I was trying to be ironic. This is essentially the story of my entire life.

That is why I still remembered you almost two years later :)

Edited December 2, 2015 by Andeleisha

[WSmith84]

I do think Jaime's chapters in King's Landing err on the side of dull, but once he leaves, they're some of my favourite in the series. I think there's some great character development, great characters and some truly great scenes. I was so looking forward to seeing

the Jaime/Blackfish meeting

on the show.

[Haleth]

Welcome, Andeleisha. I completely agree with you about the next Arianne chapter. I got chills. The show missed a great opportunity to show how complex this story is by ignoring the subtleties of Dorne.

[Delta1212]

I do think Jaime's chapters in King's Landing err on the side of dull, but once he leaves, they're some of my favourite in the series. I think there's some great character development, great characters and some truly great scenes. I was so looking forward to seeing

the Jaime/Blackfish meeting

on the show.

Well, season 6

It looks like we're getting the Riverlands and siege of Riverrun after all

[magdalene]

Well, season 6

It looks like we're getting the Riverlands and siege of Riverrun after all

And I am dreading it thinking of all the new ways these writers can screw Jaime over as a character.

 

Look, wasn't it Weiss who stated that Jaime is a cold-blooded sociopath? And didn't all the writers supposedly read the fourth book?  These guys either haven't read the Jaime POVs or they are lacking in basic reading comprehension.

 

I am not saying that Jaime isn't a very flawed and troubled human being who has done very bad things, mostly to protect his horrid sister and his family, but if you spend any time at all in his head you are bound to realize that Jaime isn't a sociopath. Or a sadist. Or a rapist.  So none of those things he has been twisted as on the TV show.

[glowbug]

And I am dreading it thinking of all the new ways these writers can screw Jaime over as a character.

 

I can see it now.

Jamie and Bronn's merry adventures through the Riverlands

. I hate how the show turned Jamie into a comic relief character. While he is witty (a trait I like in part because it shows how he and Tyrion are truly brothers even though they're very different in a lot of ways) he is not supposed to be comical anymore than Tyrion is. They both serve a greater purpose in the narrative.

 

@ nksarmi

 

I confess,

I detest that scene with Myrcella. Why would she be happy to find out she's actually a bastard born of incest, and that the war people have been fighting to remove her, Joffrey and Tommen was legitimate? Why would she be happy deceiving her future husband, who thinks he's marrying a trueborn Lannister/Baratheon, but is instead getting an 'abomination in the sight of Gods and men'? Incest goes against everything their religion and culture stands for, even if the Targs managed to get away with it. Plus, it's not like Jaime has been any more of a father to her than Robert was. I think the only reason they had her reacting so gladly to it was to up the shock value when she keeled over.

 

I completely agree.

Myrcella being happy about Jamie being her father made absolutely no sense and Jamie telling her made even less sense. The only reason that scene even happened was to make her death more dramatic and sad. It was so cliché. I felt the same way about the show writers making Talisa pregnant before killing her off.

[Terra Nova]

@Magdalene
Yes, in the Behind the Scene of the episode where Jaime kills his cousin, Benioff says that we shouldn't be fooled by Jaime's superficial charms, deep down he is a monster (!) who likes to kill (!!). I 'like' how they made him the kinslaying rapist brother, while erasing the same traits in Tyrion.
I have no idea what happened after Season 3, they just dropped the character like he was garbage. They always said their goal was to reach the Red Wedding. I fear they never planned what to do after that (Season 4 got all those shocking! endings so it was still interesting enough to them).

Edited December 2, 2015 by Terra Nova

[DigitalCount]

if you spend any time at all in his head you are bound to realize that Jaime isn't...a rapist

Not to quibble, but while Cersei eventually gets around to giving her consent in book, Jaime should have stopped long before that. The problem with the book-show transition is that we hear everything Cersei says on TV, but in the book only her consent is shown in a quote. Before that, we have essentially a description of a scene where Jaime's taking all of Cersei's protests as background noise. That is to say, he's aware of all the reasons why she's saying no--punctuated by her punches, no less--but he doesn't care. The fact that none of her reasons are "I don't want to have intercourse with you" doesn't really change that they still operate as a clear "no" that he ignores. "Yes, under different circumstances" = "no." That's a deliberate choice I think Martin made to show what Jaime wants to hear and what he doesn't want to hear. From Jaime's point of view, Cersei is silenced until she says the magic words.

 

I know the show has made many missteps regarding the portrayal of Jaime. However, I think there's also a culture around bookreaders that fosters this type of mistake. The books can do no wrong (apart from some agreed-upon punchlines like Darkstar and unsexy sex) and the show can do no right unless it sticks with the source material. I'm not accusing you of saying this, but I think it's a pervasive paradigm that needs to be examined. It makes it easier to just assume that the show took a more twisted option when in truth, Jaime raped Cersei in the show and the book. In fairness, most readers haven't read the books in years. Look at this valonqar fiasco as demonstrated here. If my pet theory wasn't my pet theory I probably wouldn't realize how it was set up in the story (and on an unrelated note, that's actually part of the reason for the theory), but that's because before this year I hadn't read the book since 2007 at the latest, and I haven't read Storm in almost 10 years.

 

There's probably a better place to say this, so I'll stop here.

[Drunken Grumkin]

Not to quibble, but while Cersei eventually gets around to giving her consent in book, Jaime should have stopped long before that. The problem with the book-show transition is that we hear everything Cersei says on TV, but in the book only her consent is shown in a quote. Before that, we have essentially a description of a scene where Jaime's taking all of Cersei's protests as background noise. That is to say, he's aware of all the reasons why she's saying no--punctuated by her punches, no less--but he doesn't care. The fact that none of her reasons are "I don't want to have intercourse with you" doesn't really change that they still operate as a clear "no" that he ignores. "Yes, under different circumstances" = "no." That's a deliberate choice I think Martin made to show what Jaime wants to hear and what he doesn't want to hear. From Jaime's point of view, Cersei is silenced until she says the magic words.

 

Another consequence of not having Cersei's POV in that scene is that we don't know how genuine her eventual "consent" was, as opposed to concluding that going along with it, and trying to get him to finish quickly, would reduce the likelihood of getting caught.

[ImpinAintEasy]

@Magdalene

Yes, in the Behind the Scene of the episode where Jaime kills his cousin, Benioff says that we shouldn't be fooled by Jaime's superficial charms, deep down he is a monster (!) who likes to kill (!!). I 'like' how they made him the kinslaying rapist brother, while erasing the same traits in Tyrion.

I have no idea what happened after Season 3, they just dropped the character like he was garbage. They always said their goal was to reach the Red Wedding. I fear they never planned what to do after that (Season 4 got all those shocking! endings so it was still interesting enough to them).

 

 

Jaime is probably my favorite character in the books. I hated him killing his cousin in the show and don't feel that he is a monster. However, Jaime does like to kill. There is no mistaking that part, at least. And to many people, that fact would make him a monster. Since this happened in season 2, the audience is expected to think of him as a monster, just as most book readers still thought he was prior to getting his POV. It's possible Weiss meant the comment to reflect how viewers should feel at that point in the story. I'd say Jaime's portrayal post-season 3 has been over the top the other way. He has become the snarky good guy, with no real complexity. I doubt Weiss would describe him as a monster now. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[Terra Nova]

Jaime does like to kill. There is no mistaking that part, at least.

Can you provide a direct quote for this? Because I always thought that, while he likes to fight and yes, the implication that in the fighting his opponents could/would die doesn't really unsettles him, he never thought/said something along the lines of 'killing is the sweetest thing there is'. Maybe I'm just misremembering, though. But Jaime biggest ambition was to become a gallant knight, not so that he could kill at will, but because it embodies the summa of what an ideal man should be in Westeros (of course, it's also a boos for his ego, but Jaime never really searched power for the sake of power, more the respect and admiration of his peers thanks to his skills). Otherwise he wouldn't have ever been that crushed by his experience in the Kingsguard and what these 'knights' truly are (dignified killers, basically).

Edited December 2, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ImpinAintEasy]

Quotes like "My hand is hungry for a sword, I need to kill someone" suggest to me that he has a desire to kill, just for the sake of it. He's no Brienne, that's for sure. He is quite like Robert. Even though a couple of scenes from season 1 were show only(I think), they describe what I feel to be their(Jaime and Robert's) thoughts on killing. I speak of the Jaime,Robert, and Barristan scene where they are reminiscing about their first kills and the one where Robert makes a comment that "killing clears my head." It is sport to them. So while they don't go around looking to slaughter innocents, they welcome the opportunity to fight and kill, as that is what they trained for. I don't think Ned describing Jaime as having a "blood lust" is incorrect, even though it comes from a biased perspective. 

 

This in no way makes sense of the show having Jaime murder his cousin, no matter how they try to sell it as him doing anything to escape and get back to Cersei. Killing an innocent,unarmed, and unsuspecting relative, who poses no threat to him is not something book Jaime would do. Though I do remember him thinking that his old self would have probably killed Lancel, so perhaps I am wrong. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[Terra Nova]

I would say more than Jaime has a very impulsive streak and tends (well, tended) to resort to violence if there's some problem, see attacking Ned after the Catnapping. But in my opinion has less to do with the pure lust for a kill, and more with some recklessness - which the reader should consider a fault in a grown man 35 years old - and falling back to 'his province', a.k.a. swordfight, which he's very talented at. So I would consider your quote more as a sign of frustration (in no small part because of the recent maiming) and some amped-up 'I need to beat something!', but I understand how the mileage may vary.

 

Arya too has come to the conclusion that life is cheap and has no qualms about killing left right and center, if she needs to, and physical violence is her default answer, too. But I would never go so far as to say that Arya likes to kill: she may like the water dancing, but not the ugly implications of it. She even wants to hear that the Faceless Men kill 'evil' people, just to make the all thing more acceptable to her (book five spoiler)

also, the way she says the insurance man has a mean look or something like that, so to prepare herself to murder him

.

 

As for poor Alton, the most jarring part of it is the complete senselessness of all: Jaime could have simply asked him to lay down and pretend to be unconscious, or just knock him out, if he really wanted it to look real. His cousin would have been more than glad to help him escape. It was incredibly contrived and awkward.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Terra Nova

[magdalene]

 

Jaime does like to kill. There is no mistaking that part, at least.

I do disagree with this.  I never got the sense from any of his POVS that he enjoys the act of killing and inflicting pain the way someone like Ramsay Bolton does.

 

Before he loses his sword hand he does love to fight and he loves to battle and he does so without fear.  It's a thrill to him and he is proud of the skill he has as a sword fighter.  The show never makes it clear how good he is at sword fighting but the books do show that he is one of the best sword fighters. A good sword fighter has to be strong - those swords are heavy - and agile and quick thinking. You have to be able to make split second decisions. So this is a skill that suits Jaime's impulsive streak. 

 

But enjoying being good at sword fighting and hacking away at your enemy in the heat of battle and even killing multiple men during combat does not automatically mean to me that someone enjoys cold blooded killing and causing harm to a human being. I think there is a big gulf between someone like Jaime and Roose Bolton, etc.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I did not compare Jaime to the likes of Ramsey. I think I pointed out that I believe Jaime enjoys the 'sport' of deadly combat. Not that he goes around looking to inflict pain on innocent people. He's a warrior. A soldier. The quote I posted is just one instance where he thinks to himself that he needs to kill someone, anyone. It's what makes him who he is, or at least was. His whole identity was his ability as a warrior. In that context, he is very much like Robert, which is why I used the "killing helps clear my head" quote from season 1. The problem was the context that Weiss used to describe how Jaime enjoyed killing, which made him seem on a level with Ramsey or The Mountain. I clearly disagree with that.

[feverfew]

We, as readers, were set up to capital-h-Hate Jaime at the beginning of this story. But then we got to know him in earlier chapters, and now we are seeing him actively try to do good things and be a better person. As readers, we have to try to reconcile these contradictory things we know about Jaime, which really amplifies the emotional impact of what Jaime himself is going through.

One of the great things about Martin's writing, in my opinion, is that while his character and world building is incredibly rich, he still leaves a lot of things open to the interpretation of the reader (See: conversations in this thread about Lyanna, Jeyne Westerling). I think that goes back to some of his earliest ideas about the books, where he wanted to subvert and deconstruct various character types and tropes. Even when he isn't doing that, he's deliberately leaving enough space for people to have a debate about what is going on and why, which I think deepens the readers engagement with the themes and arcs he has created.

Bringing this back to Jaime: we all absolutely love Jaime as a character. But do we just love...Jaime? Should we love him? Do we forgive him for pushing Bran out a window? Is forgiveness or repentance even possible? Can we still like him and think he is a good person, even though he has done bad things in the past, and if so, at what point does he cross that line? Is forgiveness or repentance of some kind necessary for Jaime not to be a "problematic fave"?

I think you put it beautifully here, and while I'm not the biggest fan of Feast/Dance, I love the fact that Martin lets us readers decide what to think of the characters - at least when it comes to certain point-of-view characters (I do believe he's forcefeeding us when it comes to villains like Ramsay, and he has already confessed that fans reacted way more negatively to Sansa in GOT than he anticipated). However, that also means that fan-favoured interpretations of character arcs might not be alike across the board. I never had a problem with Weiss stating that Jaime was a sociopath (or, as I interpreted that comment, had some sociopathic tendencies), because despite his evolution throughout the books, I never forgave him for pushing a small child out of a window to save his own skin. There is nothing in his nature, nothing in his dreams of being a perfect knight, nothing in Brienne's (romantic) reminiscences on Jaime, that'll make me forget what he did. I love Jaime in the books, I love his dry wit, but I loved Don Draper too. And I thought he, too, was a sociopath.

 

Can Jaime come back from what he did? Maybe, but he has to learn the why's of what he did wrong first. And not just hinge his hopes on another person (Brienne, as the case may be) seeing him as a shinning knight. Jaime is rudderless without Cersei, and I don't think making Brienne the new moral compass (while healthier for both him and the people around him) makes him good. Makes him a damn good character, though :)

Edited December 3, 2015 by feverfew

[Hecate7]

Sometimes I wonder why Ned didn't step in. Possibly to keep Jon's parentage under wraps as possible?

 

 

Yeah, I've always considered that a tell. Maybe she tones it down in front of Ned.

[Hecate7]

I did not compare Jaime to the likes of Ramsey. I think I pointed out that I believe Jaime enjoys the 'sport' of deadly combat. Not that he goes around looking to inflict pain on innocent people. He's a warrior. A soldier. The quote I posted is just one instance where he thinks to himself that he needs to kill someone, anyone. It's what makes him who he is, or at least was. His whole identity was his ability as a warrior. In that context, he is very much like Robert, which is why I used the "killing helps clear my head" quote from season 1. The problem was the context that Weiss used to describe how Jaime enjoyed killing, which made him seem on a level with Ramsey or The Mountain. I clearly disagree with that.

 

 

Good point! Brienne, Jaime, Robert, Ned, Jorah, Barristan, The Hound, and Oberyn are all people who enjoy killing. They enjoy it as a skill, a sport. And it's in that context that Jaime means it. He doesn't enjoy inflicting pain, and I think either Weiss did a deliberate misdirect, or he doesn't really know what a sociopath is.

 

Ramsey, Joffrey, and The Mountain are sociopaths, and also sadists. They don't feel guilt or empathy, and they do enjoy inflicting pain on others. They like making others feel helpless, and they like hurting someone simply for the sake of it. It's not about the sport or the skill, and they cannot lose gracefully.

 

I get the feeling Littlefinger, Arya, and Melisande are sociopaths, too, or they would not be able to do what they do.

 

I think it's easy to forget that Jaime isn't just saving his own skin when he pushes Bran. He's saving Cersei and their three children. Ned Stark himself thinks he might have done the same.

[Hecate7]

Another consequence of not having Cersei's POV in that scene is that we don't know how genuine her eventual "consent" was, as opposed to concluding that going along with it, and trying to get him to finish quickly, would reduce the likelihood of getting caught.

 

In the book he did not penetrate her until she said yes. So it's not rape in the book. And he did not say "I don't care" to anything except "we'll get caught." Her consent was loud, enthusiastic, and unambiguous in the book. I think we'd have seen something in her POV later, if there had been anything else to her thoughts on the matter.

"It's only been good with Jaime," is our main clue from her POV about how she feels. I don't think she'd feel that way if he tended to ignore her feelings.

[WindyNights]

I never forgave him for pushing a small child out of a window to save his own skin. There is nothing in his nature, nothing in his dreams of being a perfect knight, nothing in Brienne's (romantic) reminiscences on Jaime, that'll make me forget what he did. I love Jaime in the books, I love his dry wit, but I loved Don Draper too. And I thought he, too, was a sociopath.

Eeeeeh, that's not why he did that. GRRM kinda hits us with a mallet over it. He even has Ned Stark and Cat think it over whether they would've done the same thing in his shoes and would rather not think about it because the truth is they probably would.

GRRM also says it later in an interview that Jaime did it to save his skin, Cersei's skin and their children's lives.

Arya, and Melisandre

I completely disagree that these two are sociopaths. The word starts losing all meaning when you apply it that way.

Arya mostly only kills bad guys out of empathy for the victims. She even has to come up with reasons to kill that

one dude she doesn't know.

Plus if she was a sociopath she wouldn't care about the butcher'a boy and Lommy.

Mel isn't a sociopath just fanatically religious. She even has some empathy for

Davos which is why she keeps Devan close to her as she believes Davos has lost too much already.

Edited December 3, 2015 by WindyNights

[John Potts]

I'm no psychiatrist, but I'm pretty sure the world isn't divided into "Sociopaths" and "Non-Sociopaths", but that it's a scale. I would definitely describe Mel as a sociopath - that doesn't mean she can't have moments of feeling for others. Hitler loved his dog (and a few people, too), but he was definitely a sociopath. In fact (as I understand it) it's a pretty common characteristic of fanatics of any stripe - the cause is important (possibly even a "Good" cause) but individuals are disposable in pursuit if that - but they can still care for their husband/children/neighbour.

 

stillshimpy But the Sparrows did burst in on the election process and demand Big Bird's elevation

 

Sorry every time I read this I think "Big Bird? Is Mr Snuffleupagus showing up next?" - which would make for a VERY different show!

[WindyNights]

sociopath- a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or "social" conscience.

social conscience- a sense of responsibility or concern for the problems and injustices of society.

Arya has a social conscience and a sense of moral responsibility removing her from the equation. And some of what can be perceived as sociopathic tendencies is really just PTSD. A couple symptoms overlap.

Melisandre is harder to judge but GRRM has called Melisandre his most misunderstood character and popular opinion seems to be that she's a crazy fanatic sociopath so yeah.

[Terra Nova]

Maybe instead of framing fictional character as socio-/psychopaths (I've seen threads arguing for Sansa to be one of them!) we should just limit to the shade of grays? ^^ And Martin himself said that the only black characters are Ramsey, Gregor Clegane and Joffrey. He also spelled out who is the grayest of the gray, and surely he's not Jaime, nor Melisandre, nor Arya (name under spoiler)

It's Tyrion

[Lady S.]

I think you put it beautifully here, and while I'm not the biggest fan of Feast/Dance, I love the fact that Martin lets us readers decide what to think of the characters - at least when it comes to certain point-of-view characters (I do believe he's forcefeeding us when it comes to villains like Ramsay, and he has already confessed that fans reacted way more negatively to Sansa in GOT than he anticipated). However, that also means that fan-favoured interpretations of character arcs might not be alike across the board. I never had a problem with Weiss stating that Jaime was a sociopath (or, as I interpreted that comment, had some sociopathic tendencies), because despite his evolution throughout the books, I never forgave him for pushing a small child out of a window to save his own skin. There is nothing in his nature, nothing in his dreams of being a perfect knight, nothing in Brienne's (romantic) reminiscences on Jaime, that'll make me forget what he did. I love Jaime in the books, I love his dry wit, but I loved Don Draper too. And I thought he, too, was a sociopath.

Just a small correction here, the controversial quote was from Benioff, not Weiss, and what's more the word sociopath was never used. Benioff did call him a monster who loves to kill, but I think it's possible he meant it in the sense of Jaime being a monster because he was fearsome and lethal as a foe and he got an adrenaline rush from violence.

None of their other comments about Jaime have ever sounded like D&D think he was an inhuman sadist like Ramsay or the Mountain.

 

And while they definitely fucked up the sept scene, I don't think they were deliberately trying to "make" Jaime a rapist. All of the subsequent scenes show Jaime as more sympathetic than Cersei, and the s4 finale has them briefly getting back together, with the act initiated by Cersei, none of which makes sense to me if we were supposed to hate Jaime as Cersei's rapist. I think D&D's thoughts on the scene probably aligned with Alex Graves's, that Jaime forced himself on Cersei, but that was okay because Cersei didn't really mean "no", which is pretty gross but also a completely separate problem from ruining Jaime just because they hate the character. And s5, imo Jaime's worst-written story by far, didn't present him as a bad guy at all really.

The rapist was used as comedy relief with Bronn! The rapist tried to rescue and protect his niece-daughter! The rapist had a heartwarming moment with his niece-daughter before she died in his arms! I really don't see how any of that supports the idea that D&D think Jaime is a sociopathic raping sadistic monster and want the audience to hate him as much as they do. 

[WindyNights]

I think there is a line that separates the characters that D&D don't understand and the characters they changed to fit their vision.

I can only think of two in the former category right now and that's Renly and Stannis.

[Constantinople]

As for poor Alton, the most jarring part of it is the complete senselessness of all: Jaime could have simply asked him to lay down and pretend to be unconscious, or just knock him out, if he really wanted it to look real. His cousin would have been more than glad to help him escape. It was incredibly contrived and awkward.

Knocking Alton out is tricky. It would be hard to know how long Alton would stay out. Plus, the guard might not notice and, if he walks by afterwards, might think Alton was asleep. It was all the commotion Jaime made while killing Alton that led to the guard rushing over to the cage. Then the guard opened the door after seeing Alton's twitching body.

Jaime could ask Alton to help, but if Alton agrees he's just as dead as if Jaime kills him. The only difference is that Alton would be executed for killing the guard as Jaime's co-conspirator.

IMO, The problem with Jaime's failed escape attempt in the show is that by changing it from the books, a little more whitewash, or perhaps a lot more, is thrown on Tyrion.

[WSmith84]

Knocking Alton out is tricky. It would be hard to know how long Alton would stay out. Plus, the guard might not notice and, if he walks by afterwards, might think Alton was asleep. It was all the commotion Jaime made while killing Alton that led to the guard rushing over to the cage. Then the guard opened the door after seeing Alton's twitching body.

Jaime could ask Alton to help, but if Alton agrees he's just as dead as if Jaime kills him. The only difference is that Alton would be executed for killing the guard as Jaime's co-conspirator.

IMO, The problem with Jaime's failed escape attempt in the show is that by changing it from the books, a little more whitewash, or perhaps a lot more, is thrown on Tyrion.

 

If it's the commotion that attracts the guard, he could have just attacked the kid but not done any serious damage. Honestly though, his plan relied on some really stupid guardsmen. A guardsman stupid enough to think a man just randomly murdered his cousin with nothing but chains, and then turn his back to said man.

[Terra Nova]

There was no need for an escape attempt in the first place, since even in the books is unsuccessful and accomplish nothing - apart from showing how Tyrion is more than willing to breach guest right -. They needed something to ramp up the tension so to urge Catelyn into releasing Jaime, but that's a corner they wrote themselves into, since in the series Catelyn never knows for certain that Bran and Rickon are 'dead' (again, something the showrunners brought on themselves, by having the ravens in Winterfell killed in a departure from the books).

Also, this way they make Jaime a kinslayer, which at least in Westeros is a huge deal; even without that, killing a disarmed relative that was just fawning over him is pretty scumbaggy.

 

And I don't think all the changes in Jaime characterization were done with the secret agenda of turning him into a villain (that was Stannis, oopsie!), like the rape/non-rape sept scene: the end result was abismal anyway. Let's also remember of Bryan Cogman, the third screenwriter and the one book fans held in high esteem because of his book knowledge, before the hot mess of Season 5 and his troublesome comments about some adaptational choices. I'm pretty sure he was the one responsible for Jaime's arc in Season 3 (so yeah, I'm sure Benioff truly regards Jaime as a beast (sic)).

Edited December 3, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Constantinople]

If it's the commotion that attracts the guard, he could have just attacked the kid but not done any serious damage. Honestly though, his plan relied on some really stupid guardsmen. A guardsman stupid enough to think a man just randomly murdered his cousin with nothing but chains, and then turn his back to said man.

Attracting the guard and the guard opening the door are two different things. If Jaime just attacks Alton and the guard comes by, the guard may likely tell Jaime to knock it off, or do nothing or bring other guards to make him knock it off. Moreover, Jaime was pretending to be asleep by the time the guard got to the cage. He couldn't very well attack Alton without doing serious damage and then pretend to be asleep. Who knows what kind of WTF reaction Alton would have.

The guard was foolish for opening the door, but that's tunnel vision for you when you see someone who looks as if he's having a seizure or dying of the who knows what camp disease.  Of course, Jaime's plan may well have failed if the guard didn't open the door, but Jaime wouldn't be any worse off.

 

[glowbug]

I'm no psychiatrist, but I'm pretty sure the world isn't divided into "Sociopaths" and "Non-Sociopaths", but that it's a scale. I would definitely describe Mel as a sociopath - that doesn't mean she can't have moments of feeling for others. Hitler loved his dog (and a few people, too), but he was definitely a sociopath. In fact (as I understand it) it's a pretty common characteristic of fanatics of any stripe - the cause is important (possibly even a "Good" cause) but individuals are disposable in pursuit if that - but they can still care for their husband/children/neighbour.

 

I'm not a psychiatrist or a licensed psychologist either, but I did do my honors thesis on psychopaths so I've done quite a bit of academic research on the topic and I will say that the one defining characteristic of a psychopath is that they lack empathy. They can care for others in their own way but their version of caring is very limited. There are evil people who are not psychopaths. It's possible to have the ability to empathize with others and still do very bad things. And you're right that many theorists believe that there is a psychopathy scale that we all fall on, but there are still some people who are so far on the extreme that they would be labeled a psychopath. Note that I don't say diagnosed because psychopathy isn't a diagnosis. It does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that psychologists and psychiatrists in the United States use to diagnose patients. There is a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder but it is more behaviorally based than psychopathy.

 

And for the record, sociopath is an outdated term for psychopath that is now used informally to describe a certain subtype of psychopaths, namely the low level/unintelligent/blue collar subtype (the type that often ends up in prison) as opposed to the high level/intelligent/white collar subtype (e.g. politicians, businessmen, etc.). There have also been other proposed subtypes beyond the class/intelligence distinction including the sadist type (those that derive pleasure from pain like Joffrey, The Mountain and Ramsey). Other subtypes typically don't derive pleasure from pain but they will harm anyone who gets in their way and they're willing to harm others in order to get ahead. Roose Bolton seems to fit this subtype.

 

I definitely don't think Arya would be considered a psychopath using most definitions and I don't think we know enough about Melisandre to say.

We haven't had enough POV chapters from her and the ones we've had don't really give us enough relevant information.

I would say Viserys (Dany's brother) is a psychopath by most definitions (I certainly didn't see any empathy from him), and Littlefinger is likely one

although without any POV chapters it's hard to say for sure.

. The Mad King, too, sounds like he was a psychopath but because he also suffered from the Westerosi version of paranoid schizophrenia it sort of muddles things a bit. 

 

Sorry for the long post on psychopathy but it's clearly a subject that fascinates me. 

[Constantinople]

There was no need for an escape attempt in the first place, since even in the books is unsuccessful and accomplish nothing - apart from showing how Tyrion is more than willing to breach guest right.

I think there's a need for it in the book in that we get a good insight into the kind of person Tyrion is. I wish the show followed the book. It wouldn't have been difficult through a couple of short scenes..

 

Also, this way they make Jaime a kinslayer, which at least in Westeros is a huge deal

So is screwing your sister if your last name isn't Targaryen.

Besides, it's not as if Jaime's reputation can get much worse. If you're a member of the Kingsguard and you kill one king and abandon another, offing some distant relative whom you barely remember, if in fact Jaime did remember and he wasn't just bullshitting, is pretty small beer. In any case, by that point in his life, Jaime didn't strike me as someone who's actions were motivated by social taboos.

Also, sometimes I wonder just how much people really care about kinslaying. Given how interrelated the nobility are, it can be difficult to avoid kinslaying on the battlefield or even during tournaments. During one of the civil wars, didn't two brothers in opposing Kingsguards kill one another? No one gets on their case for kinslaying. No one really got on Robb's case for kinslaying either when he executed Karstark. They got on his case because executing him was a political and military fiasco. So sometimes I think kinslaying is one of those things they hold against you if they already hate you; otherwise, "they" will find some excuse to justify it.

 

even without that, killing a disarmed relative that was just fawning over him is pretty scumbaggy.

Nobody's perfect.

[feverfew]

Eeeeeh, that's not why he did that. GRRM kinda hits us with a mallet over it. He even has Ned Stark and Cat think it over whether they would've done the same thing in his shoes and would rather not think about it because the truth is they probably would.

GRRM also says it later in an interview that Jaime did it to save his skin, Cersei's skin and their children's lives.

But I thought we were talking about whether Jaime is (or is becoming) a good man? Killing a child to protect yourself and yours does not a good man make - it makes for a deeply selfish one. One that is lacking in empathy for others. "Sociopath" is obviously too strong a word for a grey hat like Jaime, but I do think fandom has a tendency to overlook his more questionable behaviors because he - like Tyrion - is funny, and everybody loves a redemption arc (even if I'm not entirely sure that's where Martin is going with Jaime's storyline). Is his actions easier to understand after we get his pov? Absolutely - but I also think Martin backtracked a bit with Jaime.

 

For me, the problem is that Jaime never dwells on what he did to Bran. He has plenty of thoughts on how unfair it is that the world will never know how he saved King's Landing from Arys, and I believe he wants to become a knight like Arthur Dayne, but I cannot justify his earlier actions with "oh, he just wanted to protect his family" when said family was the result of high treason -  which he knew carried a death sentence. It's not that he and Cersei was unfairly persecuted for their love - it was bloody treason.

 

But you guys are right - sociopath was too strong a word. I won't take it back in regards to Don Draper, though  :)

[WSmith84]

Also, sometimes I wonder just how much people really care about kinslaying. Given how interrelated the nobility are, it can be difficult to avoid kinslaying on the battlefield or even during tournaments. During one of the civil wars, didn't two brothers in opposing Kingsguards kill one another? No one gets on their case for kinslaying. No one really got on Robb's case for kinslaying either when he executed Karstark. They got on his case because executing him was a political and military fiasco. So sometimes I think kinslaying is one of those things they hold against you if they already hate you; otherwise, "they" will find some excuse to justify it.

 

Kinslaying is very frowned upon, but you're right that the kinslaying curse has some limits. Nobody called Robb a kinslayer (except Karstark) because they were about as related as you and I. They shared some distant ancestry, that was all. As for those Kingdsguard brothers (Aryk and Eryk, I think), well, they both died at each other's hands. I don't think that people really felt it necessary to dub them kinslayers, when it's self-evident and they seem to have suffered for it already.

 

The other thing about that Jaime scene: why was a Karstark guarding Jaime? Why was a highborn on guard duty? Isn't that a job for grunts? And why just one guard, for a man as dangerous as Jaime Lannister? Wouldn't you have a bunch guarding him, in case he, I don't know, tried to escape?

[John Potts]

Thanks for the insight on psychopathy, glowbug. All my knowledge on sociopaths comes from... watching Dexter, so I'm sure I'm misusing terms all over the place!

 

Terra Nova Also, this way they make Jaime a kinslayer, which at least in Westeros is a huge deal; even without that, killing a disarmed relative that was just fawning over him is pretty scumbaggy.

 

 

It does seem very vague exactly what counts as "Kinslaying". It seemed odd that Robb was accused of kinslaying for executing Lord Karstark (admittedly, by the guy himself, so scarcely an impartial judge!)  but even Robert's opponents don't call him a kinslayer (and the Karstarks split off about 1000 years previously - the Baratheons are descended from Orys Baratheon, supposedly bastard offspring of the Targaryens about 300 years back).

[WindyNights]

But I thought we were talking about whether Jaime is (or is becoming) a good man? Killing a child to protect yourself and yours does not a good man make - it makes for a deeply selfish one. One that is lacking in empathy for others. "Sociopath" is obviously too strong a word for a grey hat like Jaime, but I do think fandom has a tendency to overlook his more questionable behaviors because he - like Tyrion - is funny, and everybody loves a redemption arc (even if I'm not entirely sure that's where Martin is going with Jaime's storyline). Is his actions easier to understand after we get his pov? Absolutely - but I also think Martin backtracked a bit with Jaime.

For me, the problem is that Jaime never dwells on what he did to Bran. He has plenty of thoughts on how unfair it is that the world will never know how he saved King's Landing from Arys, and I believe he wants to become a knight like Arthur Dayne, but I cannot justify his earlier actions with "oh, he just wanted to protect his family" when said family was the result of high treason - which he knew carried a death sentence. It's not that he and Cersei was unfairly persecuted for their love - it was bloody treason.

But you guys are right - sociopath was too strong a word. I won't take it back in regards to Don Draper, though :)

It just makes Jaime stupidly careless. It doesn't make him evil. Put Cat Stark in the same situation and I guarantee you she would kill a child to save her own and Ned and same with Ned.

He obviously didn't like sound what he did as he did say his last line to Bran with self-loathing in his voice something I don't think he would feel if he was without empathy.

I feel like what he did to Bran is overblown whereas if you bring up that he was going

to kill Arya because Cersei told him to

then that has actual meat.

Anyways yeah I disagree that GRRM is going for a redemption arc although he's definitely flirting with it.

Rather he's going through a recovery arc.

GRRM really likes that type of arc.

[stillshimpy]

That is why I still remembered you almost two years later :)

 

Welcome aboard, Andeleisha.  Heh, well I at least I'm memorable.  I take some comfort in that and take it as a sign that I should not turn to a life of crime.  

 

Okay, Aemon has gone to meet the great Dragon in the sky, after lingering around for most of the book  Cute to see him all jazzed about Dany.  I much prefer the book's reason for Sam and Gilly getting their stinky, leaky freak on.  I have no patience for vows of celibacy, in this world or fictional ones.  I find them silly and puritanical.  Nothing like shaming people for having bodies that work and all that.  Go, take a vow of not sneezing, it's really about as practical.  I think they're psychologically warping things, is my point.  Don't get me wrong, people can be very happy being celibate and sex isn't the only fun thing in life, but vows that are centered around shaming yourself and others suck.  

 

In the bad way. 

 

So I did appreciate the reason they were having some fun on the Love Boat much more than season five

Gilly and Sam getting it on, hot on the heels of an attempted gang rape, when among every other horrid thing, Sam is so beat to all things pulpy, it was impossible to believe he wouldn't just yodel throughout for all the wrong reasons

 

 

Finally, after many false starts and mentions, Maggy (Maegi, or lord, Cersei....kicking awake a Maegi?  Daft woman) has croaked out her tale and now I know why you all wondered if we would speculate about it.  In the books, that is why Cersei decides Margaery has to die? Cersei Lannister: Medaling in Paranoia and the Long Jump of Idiocy in the Westerosi Olympics.  Oy.  

 

Loras has been burned by boiling oil and cut to near ribbons? It didn't occur to me that he would be so horribly hurt, although I sort of assumed he was going to die.  

 

Cersei is often entertaining, but in recent chapters, she's been just vile.  Having a lesbian affair so that she can try to derive some sadistic pleasure out of it, vs. sexual.  Forcing Tommen to beat a whipping boy until he's bleeding (I really hope that this all soon blows up in her face, it's a bad idea to make the King hate you, Cersei) , taking such malicious pleasure in telling Margaery about how terribly Loras was injured (he'd be in horrific pain too) , and now planning to frame Margaery in such a Tudoresque manner has just made her less fun.  I truly hope that the plan soon blows up in her face, kind of the way the Big Bird (edited to make John Potts look for cute things)  is blowing her off entirely.  I take that as further evidence that he has plans of his own.  

 

Finally something to look forward to on some level comes with a season five

oh here's hoping he has her arrested for incest and treason and all the things she's trying to frame Margaery for in this story, as he did in the series.

 

ETA:  

Sorry every time I read this I think "Big Bird? Is Mr Snuffleupagus showing up next?" - which would make for a VERY different show!

 

You do realize that will just encourage me to use it more frequently, right?  In fact....an editing I will go.  My husband swears up and down the easiest way to get me to do something is to tell me I can't, by the way.  Big Bird, Big Big. BIG...BIRD.  

 

I'm sure this also explains my opinion of vows of celibacy.  "Shimpy take a vow of celibacy!" would pretty much guarantee I'd go train as a Courtesan, at the very least. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Ah, so you've gotten to one of the more infamous sex scenes in the books. Fat Pink Mast is not one of George's best euphemisms, and that is saying something.

[bobbybuilderton]

I still say valonqar will be one of cerseis own children and no one can change my mind