Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Protar]

Not very to be honest. Obviously it was much smaller in scale but I think we'd all come to accept that. As much as people talk about how fanatical us book purists can be, when there is genuinely something that the show can't do I think that we're pretty forgiving. And we were never going to get the book version of Blackwater. What they managed to deliver was one of the largest battles in television history (to my knowledge) and still the best battle on the show as well. Written by Mister Martin himself as well, so the characterisations are mostly spot on. Book Cersei got a spot in the limelight.

 

Side note - I'm pretty sure Tyrion says the "your joy will turn to ashes" line in the show as well. Cersei repeats it at his trial for killing Joffrey, which may be what you are remembering. 

[ambi76]

But people, what the fuck?  Lancel is given House Darry's lands and Loras is in the Kingsguard?!?

 

Well yeah, the Kingsguard is a bit more than just Meryn Trant and Jaime in the books. The showmakers have so far shown no interest in that institution of ASOIAF and since they also decided for some reason that they couldn't do/afford Garlan and Willas, Loras became the sole son of House Tyrell and could not join Joffrey's Kingsguard for that reason (never mind that he was already the LC of Renly's). I don't like it at all but I'm biased.

 

I also think where Lancel's story goes in the books (with him "finding faith" and the Darry stuff) is more interesting/fleshed out there, but that's for AFFC (and maybe some of it will be on the show next season).

Edited September 5, 2015 by ambi76

[Brn2bwild]

It had been several months between my reading of the Battle and my watching it on the show, so I couldn't remember all of the details.  I do remember being disappointed by the Sansa/Hound scene, though, because it made her seem like a moron for not going with him.  In the book, as you noted, she didn't want to go with him because he was crazed and about to rape her.  In the show, it seemed like: "Oh, you're a nice guy and all, but your face is all scarred and I'm safer here with the homicidal boy king and his psychopathic mother."

[Protar]

The Whitewashing of the Hound was one of my main complaints, because as Brn2bwild says, it makes Sansa look really dumb for not going with him. That said, the Hound mostly got a good showing in Blackwater where previously he had just be a spear carrier for the most part (especially with important scenes like him telling Sansa the story of his scars being missing). 

 

All in all, Blackwater is my favourite episode of the show. 

[Delta1212]

Yeah, Blackwater is actually fantastically popular.

And they had to go to HBO and ask for more money specifically to do it (I think it was an extra 5-10 million for that episode, but that's mostly from inferences about budget estimates; they don't exactly give detailed breakdowns about how much they spend and in what), and until they got the green light, they had been trying to write around it with a back up plan where, basically, the whole thing would be in the Red Keep with Lancel running in and giving updates like "The Imp has set the Blackwater on fire!" And the like.

So in light of that, Blackwater really includes amazingly more than we could have gotten if HBO was a little less generous with the purse strings.

And yeah, Tyrion did have that line on the show, but I think you're right that there was less Stimmen threatening.

And yes, even though the show Blackwater is quite popular, even with some of the strictest book purists, the book really is much, much bigger and better both.

I think it's a case of managed expectations. How much people like or dislike a lot of the show's portrayal often has less to do with exactly how lose the got and more with how close the individual thinks the show could or should have gotten to the book.

In this case, I think they got about as close as they could have with the budget they had to work with, especially since this was following season 1 which, while quite popular, had not quite reached the status of the pop culture juggernaut that the show has acheived since. Especially based on the battle at the Wall, which I think was bigger and technically sharper but lacked the stronger character and plot beats of Blackwater, I think they probably could have pulled off a bigger Blackwater if they did it now.

But for that point in the show's lifetime, I think it was actually better than most people were expecting. Keep in mind, all the previous battles from the book, they skipped over or had take place off screen, so getting Blackwater on screen at all felt kind of amazing.

[SeanC]

I agree, I was quite impressed with what they did with the Battle of the Blackwater on the show.  It remains their best episode.

 

The stuff with Theon threatening Beth Cassel also almost made me ill.  I know he's in a desperate panic, but ....man.  No one could ever deserve what happens to Theon in the show and I'm assuming it still will, because Ramsay has him now, but Theon is actually currently more difficult to pity, so I am impressed with what Alfie Allen did with that role.  

The bit with Beth Cassel also makes an important point, namely, that what Theon is doing with her is really not any different from what was done to him.  Rodrik angrily insists they're different, but he's wrong.

 

The chapters for the Blackwater were amazing, although Sansa having to stop the Hound from pretty clearly being about set to rape her by singing was just heart-breaking on multiple levels.   I think the show did a more touching job with that and I'm glad they made the choices they did.

There, I don't agree.  The shows changes to that scene just render it nonsensical.  Sansa doesn't go with the Hound in the book because (1) he's angry and violent, (2) he never actually gives her that option, since immediately after his berserk fit he flees before she can say anything else and (3) she already has her own escape plan.  In the show, the Hound is never anything more than this gruff guy who occasionally rescues her for no obvious reason (given that most of their important interactions are cut, including the Hound's backstory and the foundational conversation), and despite Sophie Turner arguing that Sansa didn't go with the Hound because she doesn't trust him, the scene is a big buildup to Sansa confidently saying that the Hound won't hurt her.  And she has no escape plan of her own. So...why doesn't she go with him?  The show tosses in this random line about how Stannis' army won't hurt her, even though the entire rest of the episode is built around everybody proclaiming that Stannis' men are going to wreak havoc on the whole city, which just makes her look naive.

 

All the same, apart from that scene, that episode is probably the high point of Sansa's character in the show, despite the many adaptation issues in Season 2.  But then we get into Season 3 and, ooh boy, it's a long way downhill from there.

Edited September 5, 2015 by SeanC

[Delta1212]

I have to agree about the Sansa/Hound scene if for no other reason than the fact that so many people who hadn't read the books thought that Sansa had clearly left with the Hound until the next episode aired and it became apparent that she hadn't.

I'm not as invested in their 'relationship' as many people, but I do think that scene was kind of confusingly staged on the show.

[Protar]

One other scene I didn't like in the show version was the brothel scene, not written by Martin if I remember correctly. Aside from the gratuitous nudity (and the Director Neil Marshall has admitted that one of the producers encouraged him to focus more on the prostitute then he wanted) it also really served no purpose. It set up this weird rivalry between Bronn and the Hound and then very little, if anything comes of it and then the two never meet again. But this is all minor quibbles.

[nksarmi]

The Hound is one of those characters that is just SO different from book to show.  I can't stand him in the books, but I kind of like him on the show.  I always thought it was the actor (kind of like Stannis) but maybe it's also how he is written.  There is a scene for him later that is in keeping with the books, but somehow where in the books it made sense, on the show, it felt totally out of character.

 

Anyway, Loras, Loras, Loras.  He is the same character from book to show in name only.  I had actually forgotten he was a King's Guard until recently when I was reminded by a conversation in one of the book threads.

 

PS Shimpy, not to rush you or anything because I'm sure we all want to hear your detailed thoughts on the end of Clash of Kings - but I am curious as to if you will go straight into the third book or take a break.  I am very curious to hear your thoughts on a lot of book three.

Edited September 5, 2015 by nksarmi

[Holmbo]

In the show Cersei says that, not Tyrion...and he certainly doesn't threaten to do horrible things to Tommen in the show either (and I'm sure they were just threats, but good lord). 

Actually Tyrion says this in the show too. When Cersei threatens to harm Ross because she thinks she's his. Though you are half right since Cersei too says this line. She quotes Tyrion very accurately at his regicide trial.

The tommen threats are nowhere to be seen though. I agree he didn't plan to actually do it Though IIRC he has one moment where he's like "If I don't follow through with it Cersei wins". The problem with threatening things you're not prepared to do.

[ambi76]

Anyway, Loras, Loras, Loras.  He is the same character from book to show in name only.

 

And from season 3 on it's the wrong name to boot.

 

Curious about what Finn said about season 6 though:

I would love me some darth!Loras on the show but then I think of what happened with darth!Sansa and shudder. I swear to all seven gods if he gets his injuries via the Faith Militant (instead of storming a castle) I will be so utterly pissed .... argh!

Edited September 5, 2015 by ambi76

[Delta1212]

And from season 3 on it's the wrong name to boot.

Curious about what Finn said about season 6 though:

I would love me some darth!Loras on the show but then I think of what happened with darth!Sansa and shudder. I swear to all seven gods if he gets his injuries via the Faith Militant (instead of storming a castle) I will be so utterly pissed .... argh!

Honestly? He's such a different character at this point that I don't think I'd care much if they did decide to do that.

[ambi76]

Yeah. That's why for a hardcore book!Loras fangirl like me a different name like Orys or Willbur would (have) greatly help(ed) with not popping an aneurysm, Delta.

Edited September 5, 2015 by ambi76

[Haleth]

The other change that I liked In show Blackwater was the more active role Stannis took, leading the siege and having to be dragged away, rather than watching event unfold from a safe distance.

[nksarmi]

Honestly? He's such a different character at this point that I don't think I'd care much if they did decide to do that.

 

While at this point, I fully expect the hidden spoiler to happen - I am not even a fan of Loras, but I will be pissed on his behalf if the show makes that change.

[stillshimpy]

Guys?  Am I on a lot of drugs without knowing it?  (not very likely, but not impossible, I suppose)

 

 

 

Actually Tyrion says this in the show too. When Cersei threatens to harm Ross because she thinks she's his. Though you are half right since Cersei too says this line. She quotes Tyrion very accurately at his regicide trial.

 

In the show, when Myrcella is sent off to Dorne, Cersei says that line to Tyrion.  As she's being rowed away.  Doesn't she?   

 

When does Tryion ever say that to Cersei in the show? He certainly doesn't say it when Cersei has a hold of Roz.   At least, unless he does and someone drugged me (or I've forgotten...?) 

 

Cersei says the line that line to Tyrion not because she's repeating it back to him, but because she believes it is evidence that Tyrion killed Joffrey as retribution.   Have I just lost my entire mind?  (possible).  I can totally look stuff up on Youtube, so I'll check. 

 

I am going to go on through to the next book straight away, by the way :-)  

 

By the way, the show eventually rendered Sansa not going with the Hound nonsensical, but it wasn't in the show.  Sansa turns down multiple opportunities to go home, including Tyrion's "Do you want to get out of this engagement?"   and Petyr saying he will get her back to her mother in favor of being engaged to Loras and going to High Garden. 

 

We're led to believe that Sansa actively doesn't want to go home and left to guess as to why, but the assumption was that it was because she felt guilty about what had happened to her father.  

 

So it was rendered nonsensical to people who knew what was supposed to happened, but actually fit with Sansa's weird arc of not leaping at chances to go.the.fuck.home.   Plus, she says, "but you'd never hurt me" ....and it's seems pretty clear that it's an ironic statement, because The Hound practically spat in her face saying that he LIKED to kill people and hurt people...and so did her father, and so did her brother...and so did all men. 

 

She drops the doll her father gave her down by her side as The Hound's leaving....it really wasn't all that baffling....guilt, not trusting the Hound (because she never hears his backstory) and he's proven pretty freaking unpredictable to her already in the show .  He's dead center watching (and never says a word about that being enough) when Sansa is being stripped and beaten. 

 

I get why someone who knows what the scene was supposed to contain might say "it was rendered nonsensical" but....no, it made sense even if it was infuriating.  She'd been forced to write a letter to her family, calling her father a traitor, etc.   The show gave reasons why she wouldn't feel like she could go home, and was unsafe with the Hound. 

 

I say it was more touching, because as a viewer, in the Show it is completely believable when he says that he would never hurt her.  In the Book?  Yeah, he clearly was thinking about just that....even RIGHT after he told her to come with him and he wouldn't let anyone hurt her (and was clearly offering to have her with him in a different way).  

 

Also, oddly enough, The Blackwater didn't make a metric-ton of sense in the show.  "Oh, okay, so that's the wildfire....so who's on the shores fighting...?  What the....Stannis got throw that and is headed to the Throne Room? The hell?  That was a lot of fire for anyone to survive....and now someone is dragging him away as he does the standard..."Nooooooooooo!" of action flicks.    It was visually impressive from a "that's a lot of CGI" standpoint, but until I read that, i didn't really know what had happened.  

 

ETA:  Well, apparently I've been drugged or have a concussion, or was just plain-old wrong (<----spoiler, it's that one) 

Edited September 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[SeanC]

Sansa turns down multiple opportunities to go home, including Tyrion's "Do you want to get out of this engagement?"   and Petyr saying he will get her back to her mother in favor of being engaged to Loras and going to High Garden. 

 

We're led to believe that Sansa actively doesn't want to go home and left to guess as to why, but the assumption was that it was because she felt guilty about what had happened to her father.  

 

So it was rendered nonsensical to people who knew what was supposed to happened, but actually fit with Sansa's weird arc of not leaping at chances to go.the.fuck.home.   Plus, she says, "but you'd never hurt me" ....and it's seems pretty clear that it's an ironic statement, because The Hound practically spat in her face saying that he LIKED to kill people and hurt people...and so did her father, and so did her brother...and so did all men. 

Tyrion offering to end the engagement wasn't an offer to send her home, it was just an offer to halt her engagement to Joffrey; she would still have been a hostage.

 

That's an interesting alternative interpretation of the show character, though not what the writers were going for.  But I really don't see how the "You won't hurt me" line is meant to be ironic; it's meant to be a climactic moment of mutual understanding (which is why it makes little sense as to why she doesn't leave with him).

[stillshimpy]

Tyrion offering to end the engagement wasn't an offer to send her home, it was just an offer to halt her engagement to Joffrey; she would still have been a hostage.

 

The show does not actually say that one way or another.  So it looks like Sansa's ditching a chance to get home.  That was the one where it was a case of "GAWD!! NO!! He'll actually help you!!! SAY SOMETHING, SANSA!"   and then she ACTIVELY turns down Petyr and then trusts him enough to tell him "Thanks, but no thanks" and that's what gets her married to Tyrion rather than Loras.  

 

 

 

But I really don't see how the "You won't hurt me" line is meant to be ironic; it's meant to be a climactic moment of mutual understanding (which is why it makes little sense as to why she doesn't leave with him).

 

Dude, seriously.  When she tries to thank The Hound for helping her, he snarls at her that all men like to kill, even her father and that he likes to...and he's good at it....and she needs to be glad that he is because he's the only thing standing between her and her precious Joffrey ....

 

And then he's standing there looking dead ahead of him as she's being beaten with the flat of a sword and he literally doesn't do a thing or say a word. .    So yeah, there wasn't any "clearly a mutual understanding".....he's said he likes to hurt people and he has a 50/50 track record on helping her....and that could be put down to saving her for Joffrey.   He never reveals any moment of weakness to her. 

 

When Sansa said, "But you'd never hurt me?"  he answer, "No, I'd never hurt you" ....and she doesn't actually have a whole bunch of reasons to believe him or to believe that he would protect her from all harm, for that matter.  

Edited September 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[magdalene]

stillshimpy, would you have been certain without the TV show that Cat was letting Jaime go in that chapter? I read this book years before there was a TV show and as unspoiled as fresh snow, and  after Jaime had goaded Cat into killing him during their entire conversation I was not at all certain he was going to live another minute after she raised that sword at him.

 

I am glad I can also finally state here how much it has pissed me off how they changed the Jaime imprisonment for the show - the cage instead of the dungeon, cutting out a lot of the important dialogue - and most of all inventing a Lannister cousin for Jaime to murder on the show. I was just furious at that one.

[Protar]

The Jaime/Catelyn conversation is one of my favourite conversations in the entire series. The back and forth between them is just beautifully crafted. I think Catelyn's motivation makes slightly more sense in the books, as she got the news of Bran and Rickon which doesn't happen in the show.

 

Shimpy I do hope you'll give a couple more thoughts on the conclusion of CoK before going in depth into SOS. :)

[Avaleigh]

stillshimpy, would you have been certain without the TV show that Cat was letting Jaime go in that chapter? I read this book years before there was a TV show and as unspoiled as fresh snow, and  after Jaime had goaded Cat into killing him during their entire conversation I was not at all certain he was going to live another minute after she raised that sword at him.

 

I am glad I can also finally state here how much it has pissed me off how they changed the Jaime imprisonment for the show - the cage instead of the dungeon, cutting out a lot of the important dialogue - and most of all inventing a Lannister cousin for Jaime to murder on the show. I was just furious at that one.

I have more comments to make about the Jaime/Catelyn chapter but just want to say a great loud YES to all of the above. 

 

I definitely remember being worried that Jaime would be killed just as he seemed to be getting interesting. 

[magdalene]

I have more comments to make about the Jaime/Catelyn chapter but just want to say a great loud YES to all of the above. 

 

I definitely remember being worried that Jaime would be killed just as he seemed to be getting interesting. 

Yes! I thought that too. There were only the first two books out at the time and I totally remember thinking, "What!!?? You make this bastard fascinating with one conversation just before he gets his head chopped off....."

[stillshimpy]

stillshimpy, would you have been certain without the TV show that Cat was letting Jaime go in that chapter?

 

The answer to that was "HELL NO, I wouldn't have understood she was releasing him!!"  All and sundry gods and their attendant weirdness, if I didn't know -- because various people have referred to Jaime becoming their favorite character -- that he lived through that moment, I would have assumed "Oh hell, she killed him!!"  

 

 

 

Shimpy I do hope you'll give a couple more thoughts on the conclusion of CoK before going in depth into SOS. :)

 

I am absolutely waiting for at least a week until I start the next book.  It wasn't difficult to pick up on the fact that the third book must be some kind of damned game changer on multiple levels, even before we started here.  So I wanted to get my thoughts all sorted out on what went down in this book, before starting the next.   I'm assuming the natural progression was Book 1....wait....book 2....wait for 1 year, book three is released.  That sort of thing.  So fans of the books series had plenty of time to mull over things and try to figure out what would happen next before the next installment. 

 

ETA:

I am glad I can also finally state here how much it has pissed me off how they changed the Jaime imprisonment for the show - the cage instead of the dungeon, cutting out a lot of the important dialogue - and most of all inventing a Lannister cousin for Jaime to murder on the show. I was just furious at that one.

 

Yeah, I'm so glad he was held in a cell vs. a damned cage.  It pissed me off in the show that they showed him tied to a damned post, wallowing in his own crap because just....no.  That wouldn't be how such a valuable prisoner was treated.  The thing with the cousin was just HORRIFYING.  Particularly the tale the boy tells him beforehand, about how it was the best day of his life, squiring for Jaime.  Normally they sat with the unimportant Lannisters....and how special he felt. 

 

Jaime listens to all of that and murders him.  

 

And we ALWAYS had people who just clearly adored Jaime (which was actually yet another "there be a bookwalker" sign) and it made it very clear that Book Jaime and Show Jaime had only sort of met, once or twice.  I'm also at least a little convinced that the actor did NOT read the books and doesn't really get the character.  I like the actor, but yeah, the guy he was playing in those scenes in the cage  vs. Jaime in the cell, truly believing himself to be more honorable than Ned Stark....they didn't have a lot in common.  

 

Although, I have to give it up for Michelle Fairley (Farley?) for some astounding work when Jaime says he pushed Bran.  Her "Why?" had so much pain, so many layers and so much anger mixed with complete confusion -- her emotional agony actually led to about the best moment from the actor playing Jaime, in believing he'd ever have a chance for redemption. 

 

So it's not like he completely missed the boat.  It's just that his Jaime is too constantly glib and smirking.  

Edited September 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

So, what are your thoughts on Qarth in the book vs Qarth on the show, now that book two is done?

Dany's storyline is probably the most altered of any in season 2 from what's on the page.

[glowbug]

I'm glad you're waiting a week to digest book two because we'll get to hear more of your thoughts on this one (and there's so much more to say), but I'm also really excited to hear your thoughts on book three. It's my favorite book by far and I don't think seasons three or four did it justice at all. 

 

The show completely botches Jamie as a character. I understand why people think the show runners hate him. At the very least they misunderstood him or they thought there weren't enough bad (as in evil, not poorly written) characters on the show so they decided to make him less complex and less likable. While watching seasons one and two of the show (and reading books one and two, which I read after seeing the first two seasons of the show) I hated Jamie with the passion of a thousand fiery suns, and then I got to Catelyn's last chapter in ACoK. With one conversation he became so much more interesting and a little less hateful, and by the end of book three I was no longer angry with Catelyn for letting him go even though it was still strategically the wrong decision to make. 

 

What I love about GRRM is that he is able to write truly gray characters (as opposed to black or white). There are those I start off hating and end up liking, and others that I continue to hate and like all at the same time throughout the series (the Hound is an example of this). So many authors aren't able to do this so I really appreciate it when I find an author who can. 

[Avaleigh]

I'm glad you're waiting a week to digest book two because we'll get to hear more of your thoughts on this one (and there's so much more to say), but I'm also really excited to hear your thoughts on book three. It's my favorite book by far and I don't think seasons three or four did it justice at all. 

 

The show completely botches Jamie as a character. I understand why people think the show runners hate him. At the very least they misunderstood him or they thought there weren't enough bad (as in evil, not poorly written) characters on the show so they decided to make him less complex and less likable. While watching seasons one and two of the show (and reading books one and two, which I read after seeing the first two seasons of the show) I hated Jamie with the passion of a thousand fiery suns, and then I got to Catelyn's last chapter in ACoK. With one conversation he became so much more interesting and a little less hateful, and by the end of book three I was no longer angry with Catelyn for letting him go even though it was still strategically the wrong decision to make. 

 

What I love about GRRM is that he is able to write truly gray characters (as opposed to black or white). There are those I start off hating and end up liking, and others that I continue to hate and like all at the same time throughout the series (the Hound is an example of this). So many authors aren't able to do this so I really appreciate it when I find an author who can. 

If I could like this a thousand times...

 

But yeah, I basically *heart* this post. 

[Lavignac]

I want to point out that the Season 2 DVDs had an extended "Sansa & the Hound" deleted scene before the Hound left King's Landing. Asking the Bird's song, etc. It's easy to find on Youtube.

Your opinion may vary on whether it would have helped detail the characters and the SanSan ship.

[Eegah]

Even worse about the addition of Alton Lannister (whose presence I did understand at first, as it saved them desperately needed screentime of explaining why Cleos Frey was helping the Lannisters after the previous season made such a big deal of the Freys now being on Robb's side) is that it makes Jaime a kinslayer, considered the second-most horrible crime in Westeros after kingslaying. And yet it seems no one cares at all and it's never once been brought up afterwards.

[nksarmi]

Well I started to watch GoT when it first premiered and at that time my significant other wasn't really interested so I ended up not watching beyond the first episode or two (Not that I couldn't watch without him, I just ended up busy on Sunday nights - he later got hooked right along with me so Sundays at 9pm became sacred - thank goodness!).

 

But anyway, at some point I binged season one and two.  I can't remember if I watched season three straight through and then read the books or if I read the books between two and three, but I definitely had pre-formed opinions from the show when I read the books.

 

And I must say that given where I started reading - Jamie is the character from the books who I felt was most improved over his show counterpart.  I don't know if shimpy will feel the same way because she didn't care that much for Jon on the show (I liked him from the start) and his book counterpart is definitely more interesting.  I can think of one or two characters in seasons four/five that are better in the books - the ones under the spoiler tag in particular 

Doran and all of Dorne in particular are way more interesting in the books.

.

 

But when it comes to Jamie and Cersei in particular - D&D don't seem to have the same vision of the twins that most books fans have.  They seem to see Cersei in a much more generous light than we do and they seem to see Jamie more harshly.

Edited September 6, 2015 by nksarmi

[Haleth]

I can think of one or two characters in seasons four/five that are better in the books - the ones under the spoiler tag in particular  

Doran and all of Dorne in particular are way more interesting in the books..

 

 

^Ain't that the truth?

 

Shimpy, I'm curious about your thoughts on Arstan and Strong Belwas.  Of course the show couldn't hide from the audience who the old man was, but I sort of regret not getting to meet Belwas.  (An unpopular opinion.)

Edited September 6, 2015 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

The bit with Beth Cassel also makes an important point, namely, that what Theon is doing with her is really not any different from what was done to him.  Rodrik angrily insists they're different, but he's wrong.

 

I think Rodrik is right and it is entirely different.  Eddard Stark took Theon as a ward, not just to keep his father in check, but to allow Greyjoy to retain a male heir.  I don't know how likely it is that Ned understood that Balon Greyjoy would essentially disown any son not raised as an Ironborn person, but chances are good it was more about keeping Greyjoy's heir alive than securing Greyjoy's continued good behavior.  He was defeated, and if the nature of the Iron Islanders is known outside of the Islands at all, then he likely suspected that Theon wouldn't ever be welcomed back. 

 

Basically Ned took Theon as a ward because he couldn't kill a child and that was the only other alternative to leaving him there.  Yara/Asha even explains why having Theon there was not the same thing....the Iron Islanders would not fight that far inland.  They couldn't.  They weren't trained to.  Theon was not Winterfell's friggin' human shield, Theon was just justifying his entirely deplorable behavior.  

 

Even his freaking men understood that threatening to hang a young girl was the work of a damned coward and not comparable to Theon's life being spared and brought to Winterfell, to be clothed in the finest silks (where do think that stuff came from, if not the Starks?)  and educated, taught to fight <--- the part that makes it quite obvious that it's not the same thing at all.  

 

You don't teach your bloody hostage how to swing a sword.  Good gravy.  I get that that was what Theon believed , or had at least convinced himself was the truth of the matter, but it doesn't make him right.  He was taught to fight at Winterfell.  You don't teach your captives to fight and shoot long range weapons either.  

 

Theon was in the wrong there and the only great part about much of that is that he knew it on so, so many levels.  He'd just committed to what he had done so thoroughly and he was confusing being Formidably Stalwart and Courageous with "I'll do any fucking thing to save face and probably my neck right now."   He knew it wouldn't even work, he just seemed to take the stance that he was in for a truly damned penny and a perdition pound.   

 

Shimpy, I'm curious about your thoughts on Arstan and Strong Belwas.  Of course the show couldn't hide from the audience who the old man was, but I sort of regret not getting to meet Belwas.  (An unpopular opinion.)

 

I would not have guessed that was Barristan, if I didn't know, "Hey, that's Selmy!!" because of the show.  The changes to the Qarth storyline made it much less interesting in the show.   In the show Dany spends a lot of time trying to convince people to back her by running around yelling, "I will take what is mine, with fire and blood and ....etc. etc.....I just need to find a...a....well, a backer to be able to do the thing I can absolutely totally otherwise get done!" 

 

I really appreciated knowing that Daxos "marry me" stuff was about the Qarthian "you have to give him one thing" wedding rule.  I liked the city turning against her and I particularly appreciated the Sorrowful Men "I am so sorry" the Apologetic Assassins being behind that manticore.  

 

I confess, I spent kind of a lot of time trying to figure out if Belwas was meant to be Varys, but I take it he was not?  So....with no offense meant to the show...Qarth sucked.  

 

Also, the seemingly eight thousand years the show spent with the Night's Watch being at Craster's on the show could have been used to flesh out Qhorin's plan...which again, in the show is nearly ridiculous in the truest sense of the word: worthy of ridicule.   But in the book, it's deeply moving and poor freaking Jon.  

 

Also, how the hell are they going to deal with never revealing Jon's a Warg in the show, because....what happens to the guy trapped in the Eagle would make it clear, "Jon's only sort of dead....because unless they have killed Ghost too....he'd be in Ghost at a bare minimum."  

 

I see again why Martin says only Osha's actor brought more to the character.  Osha in the book is just sort of there, stoic, occasionally funny "I pissed on King's Foot last night"  and oddly honorable.  The last chapter at Winterfell (Now Winterpile) made me cry.  

 

Also, I've gotten to the point where I now have read the thing I've known for three years:  Tyrion lost his nose in that battle.  Poor Tyrion.  I don't often feel a lot of pity for him (in the Show he spends so much of his time pitying his own lot in life, which is sooooo much better than so many) , but I felt for him more in the book than I did in the show.  

 

But words really can't express how vulgar and unappealing a character Shae is in the books.  If nothing else, at least the show convinced me that Shae loved Tyrion, no matter what.  Here she's just most raunchy instead of spirited.  

 

Circling back to Sansa again, I really am surprised by how little of the story they actually portrayed with Sansa.  That stuff with Dontos goes on forever.  I take it the infamous necklace is actually a snood in the books?  Okay, well I guess they did that because they assumed that most people wouldn't be overly familiar with the term "snood".   The Accessory that Done the Dirty Deed makes the scene quite promptly, it seems.  However, Sansa's such a spectator in her own story on the show, in the books, she understands that Dontos is sort of useless and unlikely to be of much use and the only thing he's likely to slay in her name is a cask of wine.  

 

There are several characters who really suffer from the loss of their POV.  Jon, in particular, who is a different character than in the books.  Sansa for all the "loss of agency" discuss.  Arya too, but they still managed to bring her across quite well.  Weirdly, Theon is apparently the only character who benefited from a loss of POV and that's a change that I think was wise to make.  To at least make him mostly fond of the Starks and more than anything, the victim of out of control impulsiveness combined with a snowballing of things going ....North, I guess.  

[SeanC]

I think Rodrik is right and it is entirely different.  Eddard Stark took Theon as a ward, not just to keep his father in check, but to allow Greyjoy to retain a male heir.  I don't know how likely it is that Ned understood that Balon Greyjoy would essentially disown any son not raised as an Ironborn person, but chances are good it was more about keeping Greyjoy's heir alive than securing Greyjoy's continued good behavior.  He was defeated, and if the nature of the Iron Islanders is known outside of the Islands at all, then he likely suspected that Theon wouldn't ever be welcomed back. 

 

Basically Ned took Theon as a ward because he couldn't kill a child and that was the only other alternative to leaving him there.  Yara/Asha even explains why having Theon there was not the same thing....the Iron Islanders would not fight that far inland.  They couldn't.  They weren't trained to.  Theon was not Winterfell's friggin' human shield, Theon was just justifying his entirely deplorable behavior.  

 

Even his freaking men understood that threatening to hang a young girl was the work of a damned coward and not comparable to Theon's life being spared and brought to Winterfell, to be clothed in the finest silks (where do think that stuff came from, if not the Starks?)  and educated, taught to fight <--- the part that makes it quite obvious that it's not the same thing at all.  

 

You don't teach your bloody hostage how to swing a sword.  Good gravy.  I get that that was what Theon believed , or had at least convinced himself was the truth of the matter, but it doesn't make him right.  He was taught to fight at Winterfell.  You don't teach your captives to fight and shoot long range weapons either.  

 

Theon was in the wrong there and the only great part about much of that is that he knew it on so, so many levels.  He'd just committed to what he had done so thoroughly and he was confusing being Formidably Stalwart and Courageous with "I'll do any fucking thing to save face and probably my neck right now."   He knew it wouldn't even work, he just seemed to take the stance that he was in for a truly damned penny and a perdition pound.    

Theon was a hostage.  He was there to ensure his father's good behaviour, and had his father rebelled again, he would have been executed.  Ned himself refers to him as "hostage and ward" in his first POV chapter.  Likewise, this exchange between Catelyn and Robb in her first chapter in ACOK:

 

C: "You'll have [the Ironborn] sooner if you keep his son as a hostage."

R: "He's been a hostage half his life."

C: "For good reason.  Balon Greyjoy is not a man to be trusted.  He wore a crown himself, remember, if only for a season.  He may aspire to wear one again."

 

Ned trained Theon, etc., because the idea was that he would eventually go home and become lord (though given his age, it seems like they were going to wait until Balon died.  That's what you do with noble hostages of that sort, in peacetime conditions.  Theon was a well-treated hostage, but he was a hostage nonetheless.

Edited September 6, 2015 by SeanC

[stillshimpy]

I'm sorry, Sean, but we will simply never agree on that one.  Theon was not held as a human shield to protect Winterfell in the literal sense that Theon used Beth Cassel....a helpless girl....directly to hide his hide behind. 

 

He was a ward, he was considered a hostage to guarantee...nothing actually, because his father rejected Theon out-oh-hand and enough went into fleshing out what the Iron Islanders would believe to make it difficult to swallow that Ned truly believed Theon being at Winterfell secured much of anything.  Although, maybe, since Ned would literally give up anything and everything -- including his honor -- to protect his children, since he loved them so much.  So maybe he just couldn't really believe that Theon would cease to matter to Balon. 

 

But here's something that makes all of that kind of a crock anyway: Nothing in the world would stop Balon Grejoy from simply marrying again and making as many spare heirs as he cared.  Catelyn later talks about Balon Grejoy to Robb in manner that suggests she knows more than enough about him to know he's...not to put too fine a point on it....an ice-cold and dangerous man.   

 

So regardless of the first chapter where Catelyn and Ned perform the exposition dump of massive proportions to introduce everyone, the rest of the story doesn't bear that one out. 

 

Plus this:

 

Theon was a well-treated hostage, but he was a hostage nonetheless.

 

is why it's not a comparable thing.   Also, Theon's entire inner monologue throughout that shows all the cracks in his own rationalization.  He notes the looks of contempt that his own men given him when he tells them to get Beth.  He actually is dealing with a man who brought him up and taught him to fight and he is threatening a child....all the while knowing that Rodrik has to fight anyway because he's sworn to do so.  

 

Throughout Theon's POV he's aware that he's turned into a worm of a man.  He sees how people look at him.  He's just desperate enough to scramble for any hold to save the tatters of his pride and what remains (which isn't much at that stage) of his sanity.   

 

Really, I'm trying to imagine Ned Stark, or Catelyn Stark...hoisting up a little girl to hide behind and the only person that's comparable to is freaking Ramsay Bolton's playbook of sinister and low moves.   For any of the Starks, it's actually laughable to compare "This is what the Starks did to me."  Oh sure.  Righty-o. 

 

Besides all of that, here's the other thing, Theon was taken captive as a ward, a well-treated, honored hostage , a forced guest, however we might like to put it to keep Balon Grejoy for waging wars to conquer lands not rightfully his.  Not to protect Ned Stark's personal ass. 

 

So man alive, it's the very antithesis.  Theon's using a child a human shied to protect his hide in the castle he stole and set about murdering the inhabitants.   

Edited September 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[SeanC]

It's true that Balon basically gave up on Theon, but nobody on the mainland understood that.  Indeed, Theon himself didn't.  They all thought his presence in Winterfell was guaranteeing the peace, which is why Catelyn objected to sending him back.

[stillshimpy]

Keeping the peace, Sean C.  Not acting as the Human Shield behind which any one person was hiding....which is what Theon was doing there.  He knew it. His men knew it.  Rodrik knew it and somewhere in the great beyond Ned Stark knew it too. 

[Delta1212]

Yeah, Sansa's whole King's Landing storyline in the books pretty much got tossed, and I think the character wound up weaker for it.

She really has a much bumpier character arc on the show than in the books. It still feels like the arc of a little girl being disabused of all of the fairytale notions of her childhood and learning to operate in the much bleaker world that she actually inhabits, but I think her progression as a character keeps getting dialed forward and back depending on what the show needs her to be doing at any particular moment, like she very quickly learns lessons that it's not entirely clear when she learned them, and then later forgets some of those lessons.

I think that's an issue with the show in general. Not a huge one (at least in my opinion; others disagree), but still present. Characters are often allowed to go off in one direction because it is interesting or the actor is especially good or whatever the reason, but then they eventually need to reel them back in order for actions that they have to take to still make sense, and they don't always find ways to organically get the character back to that place, and the result can be a minor case of characterization whiplash.

It's a result of the conflict between doing a faithful adaptation (which I still consider this to be a great example of TV-wise, even with the changes that have been made) and the needs of a television production. Some people do a better job of managing that conflict than the writers of this show, but plenty of people do much, much worse with it.

Some people don't even have the excuse of doing an adapted storyline. Dexter was even worse about this (much, much worse) and they didn't even retain anything from the book series past season 1 so they were free to do whatever they wanted. And what they wanted was apparently for Pinocchio to discover that he was a real boy after all. Every. Single. Season.

I think after that, I may be more forgiving of these things because I've never seen a show that was as bad about nonsensical characterization as that one got after the first couple seasons when they ran out of ideas and just kept repeating the exact same bit of character growth over and over again as if it had never happened before.

[nksarmi]

The Selmy reveal was one of my favorite moments of the books - I did NOT see that coming.  Of course, there is no real way the show could pull that off, but I still think it might have been the coolest surprise moment for me.

 

Shimpy, you have hit upon one of the ways people have speculated Jon survives - in Ghost.  I'm not a fan of that possibility and I am assuming that since the show has not focused on his warging abilities, that is not where GRRM is going with it.  But I still wish the show had revealed he's a warg.  I think it's a nice nod to the fact that rather or not L+R equals Jon - Jon is a Stark, blood of the first men.  I still think that part of who he is will matter more than his possible Targ connection.  So unless I am wrong, I really don't know why the show cut it.

[Haleth]

I think the best insight into Theon's own view of his captivity is when we first see him. Swaggering, arrogant, thinking highly of himself while sneering at servants and children. I don't think he considered himself a victim at all until he went back to the Iron Islands and was either ignored or mocked for being soft and weak. That's when he decided to blame the Starks for his horrible treatment.  (They made him wear velvet.  Oh, the humanity!)  I also don't think he seriously considered betraying his foster family until his own family refused to respect him. Everything that happened at Winterfell resulted from a bruised ego and a sense of pique.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Haleth

[Holmbo]

I think that's an issue with the show in general. Not a huge one (at least in my opinion; others disagree), but still present. Characters are often allowed to go off in one direction because it is interesting or the actor is especially good or whatever the reason, but then they eventually need to reel them back in order for actions that they have to take to still make sense, and they don't always find ways to organically get the character back to that place, and the result can be a minor case of characterization whiplash.

I think a lot of shows have this issue. Not specifically having to reel in the character to the book plot since most shows seems to go off book pretty quickly (are there any other tv adaptations which has stayed close to the book material as long as GoT?) Instead it's the problem of giving people character growth but then having to take it away because they need the conflict. One example of this is when the Tywin-guy (lot of series has one) grows emotionally or has some important hearth to hearth with his son (who he of course has been neglectful and abusive towards) to then just snap back to normal ashole guy because the story needs him to be.

 

To say something on topic... I agree Sansa story suffers from the removal of plot from the book. I think the Dontos story would have been difficult to adapt because it goes on for such a long time, it would be two whole seasons of them planning her escape. But I feel like they could have made some kind of excuse for why it took so long. Maybe have Joffrey hurt Dontos or something so he's gone for a while.

[Eegah]

I'd love if it turns out Martin just straight up lied to the showrunners about some of the things he was planning to do after seeing them burn and pillage so much of his story already. "Yeah, go ahead, burn Shireen. Who are people going to get mad at? Not me!"

[stillshimpy]

So I was chatting with Mya on FB last night and one of things we ended up discussing gladdened my heart so much -- which I suspect she knew it would, which is why it was brought up at all -- was that I am not going to have to read long descriptions of Theon being tortured endlessly.  Thank you, oh literary gods and the saints of pages!  

 

Whew.  

 

I was trying to think of the most important things I learned from book two and strangely one of them was that HBO knows how to rob a story of its dramatic momentum and focus on the worst possible things.  Jon's entire story in the North ends up being far, far more interesting than what the show did in season two, where they orbit Craster's Camp of Creepiness and Poor Parenting forever, while ditching the vast majority of Qhorin's development.   

 

For whatever reason HBO seems to have struggled the most with the material at The Wall, because it isn't just Qhorin in that storyline who gets short shrift, it's all of the characters.  In the show pretty much the only heroic, or admirable men at the Wall are either Jon, Jon's Friends or Cannon Fodder, thy name is Honor.   Basically, if someone behaves even close to honorably onscreen and is from the Night's Watch, they will die.  Usually because another member of the Night's Watch killed them.  Mormont, Qhorin anyone that had a speaking part that wasn't limited to threatening someone horribly.   

It's just a shame that they lost so much of the "Wow, there are brave and admirable men at the Wall!"  because it always makes Jon look sort of dim or dreary for always being focused on "This is who I am! I am a man of the Night's Watch!"  and he seemingly doesn't notice that he's the only person actually taking that oath seriously.  That feeling was underlined at the end of the fifth season where....seriously....they suck.  

 

Losing so much of the supporting material for Jon's story is just baffling me at present.  

 

In the Qarthian story, I  suppose I can understand why so much of it was changed.  It had a lot of broad hints for what Robb's story would contain.  Presumably Daxos is not heard from again (because boy did they ever kill him dead in the series) and they dealt with "everyone in Qarth wants Dany to get gone, by having Daxos murder the 13 in a power play."  Sort of strange choices, that make Daxos more overtly a villain than the book's opportunistic sleaze ball.  

 

But when Mya and I were talking about "No, you actually won't have to sit through a full book's worth of Theon torture" I started to get part of what happened.  Certain characters leave and re-enter the story, but for the purposes of retaining a cast, that can be difficult.  

 

Also, I either missed it or it wasn't mentioned, but the book doesn't tell me what Stannis did to Edric Storm.   I see Qhorin got this installment of the curse of the "next time we meet, we'll have that conversation" *dies* .   I'm starting to hope it's a running gag on purpose. 

 

I also don't think he seriously considered betraying his foster family until his own family refused to respect him. Everything that happened at Winterfell resulted from a bruised ego and a sense of pique.

 

I agree, nothing about Theon in the first book suggests that he thinks himself ill-done-to on any level.  He just ends up blaming the Starks for the way his family treats him upon his return to the Iron Islands, rather than blaming them.   They stick him in a moldy room, for goodness sake, and nothing the Starks did, or didn't do, made any of his family members suck that much.  Who the hell would blame a child for being taken as a hostage/ward/guarantee of good behavior?  Apparently absolutely everyone on that wretched island.  

 

Most of Theon's story seems to be about a desperate scramble to try and win approval from people who truly just suck. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Yeah, I think the show may have slightly improved on Theon's character leading up to the Winterfell sack, in large part because Alfie Allen did a really good job with the role, but they seriously dropped the ball on the post-Winterfell stuff.

I think partially because of the way the show is structured vs the books, partially because Alfie Allen was so good that they wanted to give him more to do, partially because they gave Ramsay's role in book/season 2 to Dagmer and wanted to reinsert some of that "surprise, it was Ramsay all along!" dynamic back into Theon's relationship and partially because of logistical and cast retention issues.

Of course, then you have an overload of interactions between Theon and Ramsay that should make it abundantly clear that the Boltons are not really playing for Team Stark, so they had to turn every Theon/Ramsay scene into a season-long guessing game into who was holding Theon, which got very tiresome very quickly.

I think with half the screen time, that plotline might have been ok. But it didn't and wasn't.

[stillshimpy]

Well, I also suspect that Ramsay's role was expanded so much because of the actor they cast to play him.   I've never personally seen The Misfits, but I take it he plays the sweetest, most adorable character in that show.  So HBO seemed to be hoping that they'd have a major "gotcha!" on their hands for the audience.  

 

They just majorly overplayed that hand and then, with no offense to the actor, the role doesn't actually play to his personal strengths. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by stillshimpy

[chandraReborn]

Actually, his character on The Misfits is a total creep--but more of in a "I am so confused by the norms of human interactions that I *Misfits Spoilers* 

hang out with the frozen corpse of a hot woman

"  

[nksarmi]

I had to look it up (because there has been a ton of debate about book Stannis vs show Stannis and their varying characterizations so I don't want to say anything about Edric prematurely).  But according to what I could find, at this point Edric Storm is alive and well in Dragonstone spending time with Shireen.

Edited September 7, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

Oh my freaking gawd, really??? We had people going on and on about how adorable he was in The Misfits.  

 

ETA:  Oh great, so ....yeah.  That answers my question about what Stannis does with him though.  If he's at Dragonstone and Stannis just lost the Blackwater.  Sorry about your impending sacrifice there, Edric.  Gah. 

 

Oh, by the way, there was one more thing in the book that went towards better illustrating how "I know this was dirty pool" Stannis murder of Reny was -- he apparently tells know one he was responsible and then specifically doesn't take Melisandre with him to the battle, because he's convinced that if he wins, it will be put down to her sorcery, which he doesn't want. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

We touched on most of this along the way, but now that book 2 is done and you're taking some time to reflect on it, a few "book club" questions:

What was your favorite part of Clash of Kings? Least favorite?

In a similar vein: What was the best change the show made in your opinion? The worst?

Was there anything you are particularly disappointed that got left out of the show, be it characters, lines, events or information?

And leading into book 3:

What are you interested in finding out more about?

Are there any story lines from seasons 3+ that you expect are likely to be different on the page than on the show? (Since I know how often you'd talk about how some must be different in the books than on the show for one reason or other).

[Holmbo]

Oh my freaking gawd, really??? We had people going on and on about how adorable he was in The Misfits.

Well.. he learns. :D

I read the actor tried out for Jon Snow as well.

[Protar]

I actually think that Rheon was a pretty good cast for Ramsay, he's just poorly written (that's often the case actually). They don't seem to know whether they want to write Ramsay as genuinely scary or as a black comedy character, so he just comes across as cartoonish on the show. Doesn't fit with the tone at all. Or I guess he does nowadays. 

[stillshimpy]

What was your favorite part of Clash of Kings?

 

Gosh, I guess I must have really enjoyed this one because I'm stuck for an answer on that one between three things that I genuinely liked a lot:

 

First of all, again, despite having been exposed to the Jon Snow is the Best sentiment for so long, and clearly not getting it -- which I submit to you truly is on the show rather than the character or actor, they really made less of his story -- I would have to sort of sheepishly say that I think my favorite stuff is a dead-tie between learning more about Jon, the story beyond The Wall (sans Craster) finding out that there's more to Jon Snow as a character than rocking the Old School Emo look...and then everything about Tyrion's preparation in King's Landing, which is so extensive and really explains so much about what the show does with the character.  That was incredibly detailed and well thought out.  

 

 

 

Least favorite?

 

The treatment of the entire story with Lolly and just Shae's character in general.  You know the book Gone Girl? It's as much a commentary on the ridiculous roles women are asked to play throughout their lives as almost anything else and Amy is sort of the character that would result if "What if one of those actors was fed-the-hell-up with it...and psycho to boot?" ?  Shae's like one of the people Amy pretends to be.  She does't read as a person.  She's just a perpetually DTF (which makes sense for her profession) construct, who is so uninteresting in any other capacity, that it's actually a little baffling that Tyrion is so besotted by her.  

 

At least Show Shae has a personality, even if it is an overwhelmingly annoying one.   Book Shae is just The Girl Who Really Liked Sex (for a Price and  Jewelry always a bonus for exuberance!).   

 

Then the thing that I most came to appreciate about the second season of the TV Show, after having read the book, is what the actor who plays Theon does with all that stuff.  Alfie Allen shows how emotionally vulnerable Theon is, that he really does have this thing where he's just trying to win someone's love.  It could have been Roz, it could have been the Starks had Robb been more spirited in his "You are my brother now and always!"  and it ends up being about a terrible and destructive attempt to win his family's love because they're the freaking people who are supposed to love him without him having to earn it.   

So  I never thought I'd say that, but well done to the show for a more subtle and emotionally persuasive rendering on that one.  It's all there in the books, but Allen really made it work and a lesser actor might not have.  

 

 

 

Was there anything you are particularly disappointed that got left out of the show, be it characters, lines, events or information?

 

Jon being a Warg rates pretty freaking high.  How self-directed Sansa and Arya are.  I get the urge to utilize Charles Dance more because....Charles Dance.  However, Arya's story is much better if she's a cup-bearer for Bolton, who has sort of ushered him into the castle by killing off everyone with "Weasel Soup"  that's got some heart-rending connotations for what happens to her poor family.  I also loved the dark-humor touch of underlining what a cold-blood piece of crap Bolton is by having him be a fan of being leeched.  That was a fun addition, oddly enough.  Bloodless, ice-hearted piece of dung that he is. 

 

But it's also important that its Arya who gets the gang out of freaking Harrenhal.  I wish they had found a way to include that little moments she takes to try and figure out what to do. 

 

It's always partially that the stuff the Show decides to include and focus on (The Tickler Torture is another one they just lingered over FOREVER) is usually gratuitous and vaguely insulting, while they ditch really interesting things to feature more sensationalized and dwelled upon gore and violence.  It's a little insulting the audience's intelligence.  

 

So many stupid things were changed that just...it wouldn't even have taken more time.  Have Jon let Ygritte go.  It would have explained why she trusts him instead of basically being hot for the aforementioned Emo Rocking.   More emphasis on the "Magic is on the Rise" because Pyatt Pree just did not work as a character.  He looks like Gonzo, it's impossible to take his "the power courses through my veins" stuff seriously when he's done in by something so silly even Rocky and Bullwinkle could have seen that coming.  

 

 

 

And leading into book 3:

What are you interested in finding out more about?

 

Let me think about that for a few minutes and get back to you :-) 

 

ETA:  

 

he's just poorly written (that's often the case actually).

 

That's possible, but I genuinely feel that the actor struggles to bring across how smart the character would have to be.  Instead he's a food-fixated Sadist and ...I just, I'm sorry, I really don't think it's just the writing, it's in some of the actors choices.  Or, it is quite possible, in the directors. 

 

Plus, the show is obsessed with trying to win Daddy's love as a theme for far too many characters. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by stillshimpy