Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[SeanC]

I've wonderered why four and not five.  Was Renly already dead?  Or had Balon not declared?  Or was Joff not represented because he was already on the throne?

Renly was dead by that point.

[Seerow]

I've wonderered why four and not five.  Was Renly already dead?  Or had Balon not declared?  Or was Joff not represented because he was already on the throne?

 

I believe Renly died several chapters earlier, and it's usually easiest (if not always accurate) to assume the chapters happen in vaguely chronological order. So yes, I would expect that Renly is dead at the time.

 

That said, I believe I remember a quote from the books where one character remarks that the "War of Five Kings" was a misnomer because there was never 5 kings on the field all at once. Couldn't give a citation though, it's actually been a few years since my last read

[John Potts]

I agree that the way the show presented the House of the Undying was understandable: yes, there's a whole lot of symbology/foreshadowing that has been altered/omitted, but most of it would require building a whole load of new sets and D&D decided not to break the bank for a couple of weird scenes that might not pay off for 5 Seasons.

 

SeanC How does that fit at all?

 

The Rat Cook is cursed (and turned into a rat) for eating his own children, which is what the Freys are (inadvertently) doing. The Freys are numerous, live on a river and are internecine: properties commonly attributed to rats. As I say, I could be completely wrong, but the fact that there are only FOUR rats in Dany's vision makes me doubt they're the FIVE Kings (OK Renly was dead by this point but since when did visions take strict chronology into account? And shouldn't the rats be eating each other too?

[SeanC]

The Rat Cook is cursed (and turned into a rat) for eating his own children, which is what the Freys are (inadvertently) doing. The Freys are numerous, live on a river and are internecine: properties commonly attributed to rats. As I say, I could be completely wrong, but the fact that there are only FOUR rats in Dany's vision makes me doubt they're the FIVE Kings (OK Renly was dead by this point but since when did visions take strict chronology into account? And shouldn't the rats be eating each other too?

Renly was dead at that point, so there's no reason to discount it on that point.  Sure, it could have had five rats, but it had four, and that fits too.  There's no reason for there to be four if it's the Freys, by comparison.  And what does the woman represent, in the Frey version?

[Avaleigh]

I actually like how simplified Dany's vision is on the show because to me they boiled it down to the info that was most important. I've only ever had one interpretation of the scene simply based on what we know on the show and in the two books up to that point. Based on that alone the scene to me very much seems like it's saying that that Dany's heart's desire is currently on the Wall. I can't see why else she'd see the man she loved and their unborn child, warm, safe and happy at the freaking Wall of all places.

[stillshimpy]

The general assumption is that the woman is Westeros and the four rat-men are the four kings waging war at the time Dany is in the House of the Undying.

 

That's an interesting take and perhaps I will understand it more as I read more of the books, but at this particular time, I don't think it fits particularly well.  For one thing, comparing Westeros to a beautiful woman being multiply violated seems quite odd.  I guess if you're willing to go with the whole "Mother Earth" type of symbolism...but then the four rats don't make a lot of sense.  There's Robb, there's Balon Greyjoy, there's Stannis, there's Mance Raydar ....all alive an participants, but what they are doing doesn't make a lot of sense. One is essentially devouring her breast, and that doesn't particularly fit with anyone and then the other is meant to be having sex with her and again, doesn't really fit with anything.  Plus, it's the Seven Kingdoms and that's poorly represented by a naked woman.  So I don't know. 

 

I guess I'll see how I feel about that one as time goes on, but the mere fact that the woman was referred to as being beautiful doesn't quite fit with a warn torn and frequently troubled anyway, land.   We'll see though.  

 

Dev F, I did notice the Slaves embrace Dany as their savior moment in the Palace of Dust visions.   That was a problematic scene in the show because of how it was shot also, but the series had really struggled from jump with depictions that could easily be deemed racist when it came to Dany.  The Dothraki wedding was one people had been freaking out over for years and honestly, it seems like they should have perhaps put a bit more effort into being conscious of how some of Dany's scenes might represent on screen.   

 

I can also understand being very disappointed in the show's depiction of Qarth.  Some things can never be properly depicted without a massive budget, because it's not like CGI that is worth a darn is cheap either.  So some details will get lost.  I do wish that they had managed to keep in one detail ...the Fire Mage's increase in power and the strengthening of magic.   It would have helped to know that Dany -- and the world around her on that side of the sea -- was aware that magic powers seemed to be strengthening.  

 

So much of what goes on in the series, as it pertains to King's Landing ignoring the bejeebers out of and completely dismissing out-of-hand the shit-storm that is brewing in the North has to do with their ability to entirely poo-poo the uptick in magical happenings.   

 

It would have helped to know that someone in the land had their fingers on the pulse of this all.  

 

There is one character I'm looking forward to meeting and the only case of the "Thank GOD they recast that part" and that is Daario.  The first actor they cast as Daario was just horrifying.  He was like the embodiment of sleaze and it just made Dany look sort of dim for even considering him attractive.   Maybe the actor is absolutely fabulous in a different part, but he was repellant as Daario.  However, the recast was very successful.  They used an actor who frequently plays borderline-sleazy guys...and yet, is frequently liked just because he has a personal charisma.  I've seen him in three different shows and each time he's played someone that is borderline icky...but easily liked. 

 

So I am looking forward to meeting him.   

 

As for the crutch of world-building, I enjoy it because it is early days in the story.  It's a fun detail to have and I like that Dany will have such a varied experience.  On the show, Qarth just comes across as a little bit lame.  The Empty Geraldo Rivera Vault of Revenge was more than a little horrifying, but it also didn't make any sense.   

 

Plus, the House of the Undying being comprised of precisely one dude was wildly unimpressive.  

 

ETA:  

 

I can't see why else she'd see the man she loved and their unborn child, warm, safe and happy at the freaking Wall of all places.

 

That's actually not an interpretation that I've ever seen before, Avaleigh.  It's possible I just skimmed it back in the day.  Dany was the character we had the most problems with for people romping in with speculation that clearly wasn't just speculation (that damned witch misquote that marked a bookwalker from space)  so season two was the "Uh oh, someone we don't know very well is speculating about Dany....read with extra caution or just skip it entirely" season...but I actually remember that scene was Dany seeing Drogo and her son in a tent ....not at The Wall.  

It's been a long time since I watched that though. 

 

Plus, most of you guys have been doing this part for years, so I'm assuming that there's going to be more to the "it is believed that represents Westeros" interpretation than I currently know. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

They were in a tent that was in the snow beyond the Wall, although it kind of seemed to stop being there once she went inside.

[stillshimpy]

I knew it was snowing where the tent was, Delta, but I assumed that was because Winter had actually gotten the hell there at long last.  It was snowing in the Throne room too. 

[Delta1212]

To the best of my recollection, she walked out of the throne room and came out the front gate of the Wall, and then trudged through the snow to a tent where she found Drogo and Rhaegal.

And that was actually a surprise to everyone because they somehow managed to keep the fact that Jason Momoa returned to film that scene under wraps, so even those of us who follow the production between seasons had no idea that was coming.

[Avaleigh]

It's been awhile since I've seen it too but IIRC the tent is on the Wall. My question is why would it be there and I think the answer could be that it's a set up for another song of ice and fire. Assuming I even know what the song of ice and fire is. I have no idea of course, this is all speculation on my part. The book was a lot less straightforward, I thought, and the only reference that I can recall of the Wall during the House of the Undying had to do with the blue rose (or maybe there were several roses) growing out of a chunk of ice.

[stillshimpy]

Aha!  Okay, now I understand what you're talking about, but I guess I just interpret that as the greatest desire of Dany's heart being at the wall, but rather "Yes, but isn't that where the dead walk?"  So...that's why I thought she saw Drogo.  Not that he was a Zomboni, but rather that he was there, in the land of "Yes, but the Dead are Risen there".  

 

Thanks, guys!  

 

How incredibly cool that no one even knew that was going to happen.  Jason Momoa did a LOT with that role that was not on the page.  He made Drogo an actual character, where he's a bit of a walk-on in Dany's story, truthfully, despite all the "Moons and stars..." stuff in the book.  In the book, he has very little actual characterization other than, apparently, nearly always being DTF. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

That's an interesting take and perhaps I will understand it more as I read more of the books, but at this particular time, I don't think it fits particularly well.  For one thing, comparing Westeros to a beautiful woman being multiply violated seems quite odd.  I guess if you're willing to go with the whole "Mother Earth" type of symbolism...but then the four rats don't make a lot of sense.  There's Robb, there's Balon Greyjoy, there's Stannis, there's Mance Raydar ....all alive an participants, but what they are doing doesn't make a lot of sense. One is essentially devouring her breast, and that doesn't particularly fit with anyone and then the other is meant to be having sex with her and again, doesn't really fit with anything.  Plus, it's the Seven Kingdoms and that's poorly represented by a naked woman.  So I don't know.

 

I attribute the Westeros = naked woman to, well, Martin and boobs!  As for the 4 rats devouring/raping/despoiling her, the general opinion is that they are Joff, Robb, Stannis, and Balon, the kings who are actively at war over her.  (Thanks Sean and Seerow for the clarification.)  Mance wasn't actively at war at this point.

[stillshimpy]

I attribute the Westeros = naked woman to, well, Martin and boobs!  As for the 4 rats devouring/raping/despoiling her, the general opinion is that they are Joff, Robb, Stannis, and Balon, the kings who are actively at war over her.  (Thanks Sean and Seerow for the clarification.)  Mance wasn't actively at war at this point.

 

But that's only if the timeline of Dany in Qarth matches up with what is going on in Westeros at the exact same time as the chapters in the books ....and the room is ...for whatever reason...depicting the present, so I am sorry, just don't personally see it unless something happens in the future that will make it more clearly depicted.  

 

I can't count Joffrey, because he doesn't do shit himself.  That's all Team Lannister while he tortures cats.   

[Dev F]

I can also understand being very disappointed in the show's depiction of Qarth.  Some things can never be properly depicted without a massive budget, because it's not like CGI that is worth a darn is cheap either.  So some details will get lost.  I do wish that they had managed to keep in one detail ...the Fire Mage's increase in power and the strengthening of magic.   It would have helped to know that Dany -- and the world around her on that side of the sea -- was aware that magic powers seemed to be strengthening. 

 

It's actually fairly bizarre that this point doesn't come across in the show better than it does, because the writers made a big point of emphasizing it. First, they do Quaithe's speech linking the dragons to the rebirth of magic almost verbatim ("They shall come day and night to see the wonder born into the world again . . ."). And then they actually turn that link into an incredibly on-the-nose plot point, when the warlocks reveal why they kidnapped the dragons: "When your dragons were born, our magic was born again. It is strongest in their presence. And they are strongest in yours."

 

I think the reason it doesn't play is because the producers never manage to sell the "before the return of magic" scenario. The show's version of the warlocks are such over-the-top fantasy villains that it's impossible to imagine them as sad old weirdos who sat around in their dusty clubhouse tripping on hallucinogens until their magic started to reawaken. Heck, how did their doorless, windowless tower even work before they had the power to magically teleport people inside of it?

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I just finished what was easily my favorite Tyrion chapter ever, but first: 

 

 

 

The show's version of the warlocks are such over-the-top fantasy villains that it's impossible to imagine them as sad old weirdos who sat around in their dusty clubhouse tripping on hallucinogens until their magic started to reawaken. Heck, how did their doorless, windowless tower even work before they had the power to magically teleport people inside of it?

 

Because they also made the mistake of not introducing Tile-Face-Lady as an actual character.  Dany's approach to the city isn't "we came and got your from the city of bones and ghosts" ....she wanders up to the damned gate and is practically greeted by a dusty version of a guy looking for a Horse of a Different color.  The only reason she gets in, in her nomadic-beggar state is that Ducksauce is all "I vouch for you and ask you into the greatest city that ever was, or ever will be"  ....so she just seems to be Xaxos pawn.     

 

So when Tile-Face speaks to Jorah the focus was on "Who the hell is that and why is her face covered?  Why is Jorah listening to her?  Do they know each other?  What is with the guy they are painting?" rather than what.she.says.  

 

It's the biggest case of "We lacked establishing backstory and then had a circus sideshow's worth of freaky shit going on in the scene to distract from what is said."  I mean, someone is being written on in the background, with ink or blood contained within half a skull.  She's impossible to take seriously because it's nigh-on-impossible to pay attention to what she's saying since The Weirdest Shit Ever Seen on the Show is happening simultaneously.  

 

The Warlock's are represented by one guy, who has a name that seems like an escapee from a Monty Python skit and who was mostly reminiscent of Gonzo from the damned muppet show and truly, you don't get a sense that there are warlocks....you get sense that there's Pree, who has some sort of House-of-Mirrors power and he's so pathetically short-sighted that it took the wits of Pippy Longstocking to defeat him.  

 

I mean, damn.  Pree was ridiculous and aldo defeated so easily, it was hilarious.   Then exactly once he showed up as a kid and a killer crab and that was it.  

 

So it was hard to take the "The magic, it is strengthening" stuff seriously, when Old Blue Lips McGee flapped his mighty chicken wings once and was skewered into seeming oblivion by Selmy, never to be heard from again.  Doesn't exactly scream "Beware the magical potency."  

Edited August 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Autarch]

The general assumption is that the woman is Westeros and the four rat-men are the four kings waging war at the time Dany is in the House of the Undying.

Another possibility is that it's Cersei.

The dwarfs represent Tyrion and how he torments her; she has reason to believe he's going to kill her, after all.

 

 

It's one of the first places where GRRM starts to lean on his crutch of putting world-building ahead of storytelling: When you don't have something interesting for your characters to do, just have them wander somewhere and spend several pages describing the setting! I get the point of it all -- Dany realizing that royalty is more than making a good appearance and demanding that people follow you -- but certainly there was a better way to dramatize that than having her tromp from place to place looking for powerful friends until one of the prospects tries to kill her.

 

Dany's Clash chapters lean more towards characterization than world building, of which there's no more than any other setting received, and in each instance serves said characterization, informing Dany's decisions and foreshadowing her path -- I'm not taking into account the House of the Undying either; there's an implicit message in her progression from Red Waste, City of Bones, to the splendor of Qarth. And she only has the five chapters, half of what she had in Game; any less and her chapters might have seemed an afterthought, which might've been more jarring to the pace of the story than her five.

It certainly seemed that way in Dance for a few of the characters, where it felt like he just shoved the bare amount of chapters in there for character x because they had to go somewhere

.

[nksarmi]

I really need to reread the House of the Undying stuff because at this point, I don't even know what happened in the book vs the show (I forgot that the stuff with Drogo was show only). 

 

Of course, it's almost painful trying to figure out which prophesies, visions, etc... are going to end up mattering and if GRRM is really giving us clues to how the series will end or just giving us a bunch of red herrings to chase around while we wait for another book to be published.

 

shimpy, your thoughts on Daario are fascinating because I must admit that the first casting was exactly how I pictured him in the books. The current actor embodies his attitude to me, but I pictures him looking more like the first.

[John Potts]

stllshimpy I am sorry, just don't personally see it unless something happens in the future that will make it more clearly depicted.

 

 

Ha! Shimpy agrees with me! I'm not mad! (Or we're both mad, but... let's not pursue that line of thinking!) But analysing prophecies beyond a certain point is rather pointless since (unless you're GRRM) it's all a question of interpretation.

 

Incidentally, totally agree on Daario too - he struck me as merely a pretty boy that for some reason Danny was completely smitten by. Well, OK, she's entitled to be smitten with whomever she pleases (and hey, one advantage of infertility is she can screw around as much she likes without risking pregnancy) that doesn't mean she has to trust him!

Edited August 23, 2015 by John Potts

[chandraReborn]

I can't wait until 

Book Daario appears. That man is the king of sleeze.

[Delta1212]

Figuring out prophecies in this series is immensely entertaining not least because GRRM purposely puts in half a dozen red herrings for each one, with events in several different plotlines all very intentionally fulfilling the same aspect of one prophecy or another in subtle ways so that it's difficult to tell which the prophecy is really referring to and which is just "coincidence" or if they are all just coincidences and prospecies aren't actually real at all.

[Holmbo]

I actually like how simplified Dany's vision is on the show because to me they boiled it down to the info that was most important. I've only ever had one interpretation of the scene simply based on what we know on the show and in the two books up to that point. Based on that alone the scene to me very much seems like it's saying that that Dany's heart's desire is currently on the Wall. I can't see why else she'd see the man she loved and their unborn child, warm, safe and happy at the freaking Wall of all places.

My theory is that she comes to the throne room where everything is destroyed because of whitewalkers and winter. She has the opportunity to claim the throne but instead she goes beyond the wall to fight the others and there she dies, thereby being reunited with Drogo and their child.

Anyways, back to the book

Which was Tyrion chapter that you claim as your favorite Shimpy?

Also when speaking of favorites, do you have a favorite character here in the book, or a favorite pov?

[Mya Stone]

Am I the only one who wants to know what Tyrion chapter you just read? ;)

[glowbug]

shimpy, your thoughts on Daario are fascinating because I must admit that the first casting was exactly how I pictured him in the books.

I agree. The first actor was much closer to my image of book Daario and I actually preferred him in the role, but I might feel differently if I hadn't read the books first.

The current actor embodies his attitude to me, but I pictures him looking more like the first.

I think book Daario and show Daario are completely different characters. Book Daario really isn't charming and he's not likable to anyone but Dany, who only seems to like him because she thinks he's hot.

Edited August 23, 2015 by glowbug

[nksarmi]

I agree. The first actor was much closer to my image of book Daario and I actually preferred him in the role, but I might feel differently if I hadn't read the books first.

I think book Daario and show Daario are completely different characters. Book Daario really isn't charming and he's not likable to anyone but Dany, who only seems to like him because she thinks he's hot.

That's an interesting point.  It really has been awhile since I read the books and I fully admit to being so frustrated when she decided to stay in Meereen that I might have lost some of the finer plot points in my "why doesn't she just go to Westerous and make a claim for the Iron Throne already!" head rants. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering about the Tyrion chapter.  I started to ask about it, but then I figured everyone else probably knows what chapter she is referring to as I think I'm the only one who has forgotten more from the books than I remember.  I swear I'm starting to feel like I'm not even a book reader at all - I totally need to reread.

[Haleth]

The next couple of Tyrion chapters are preparing for the battle.

[Skywarpgold]

My assumption is that it's the one directly following Dany's House of the Undying chapter.

I've been following along on the AWOIAF site, to get quick synopses as she's going along:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Chapter_49

[nksarmi]

Skywarpgold - that synopsis was very handy and I am starting to remember why shimpy is saying that Tyrion was shown as being a really proficient Hand in the books where the series just tells you he is. 

Just in case that wasn't the chapter shimpy was referring to:

I totally forgot that wildfire was connected to dragons in a magical way as opposed to just being a method to replicate what dragons could do. GRRM really does have a lot more magic in his books than the show keeps and at times, I think that is a real shame.

[stillshimpy]

Sorry guys, I get distracted easily sometimes :-)   

 

It was the chapter where Tyrion is preparing the city for battle.  He's just got so many things going on at once.  He's circulating anti-Stannis propaganda and prepping the shores to make more difficult to assail.  Then there's a detail (or seven) in there that the series lost that were just interesting to know about.  The Antler-Men including Gendry's old employer (and I felt sorry for him people willing to be loyal in this story generally have sad ends) .  

 

I loved the way the dialogue for the alchemist/chief wildfire-maker was written.  "Sure, we can make wildfire without dragons, and we always say these spells, but they never really seemed to do anything....and it's weird but hmmm....ummmm....hmmmm well, it's almost as if they are working and we are making wildfire hand-over-fist and hmmmm....ummmmm....don't feed me to Joffrey but .....why it's almost as if, I'd hate to speak out of turn, but one might think....hmmmmm....not necessarily me, that there were dragons somewhere."  

 

It's this wonderfully funny contrast.  This poor guy is practically crapping his pants -- and I've officially reached the point where I've found out that the Pig Shit thing is not in the books, so that was pretty heartening too because if you could have been in our household for the night that Bronn talked about Pig Shit it was the strangest "Wait, was that actually in the books?  How freaking weird is that?"  -- and Tyrion thinks he's trying to sell him a bridge across the Narrow Sea or swamplands by The Twins, or Harrenhall, the Hot Potato of Holdfasts -- and the poor man is just telling him the truth.  

 

That just struck me as hilarious:  First of all, wildfire is tied to magic, which it wasn't before, this poor stammering guy is suspected of being  a snake oil salesmen and instead, he's apparently one of the only people in King's Landing who has realized, "Strangest thing.  Magic is working.  Quite Odd.  Dragons?"  So I was dying laughing through most of that.  

 

But it is mostly that whereas other people who have read the books might not like the St. Tyrion treatment on the show, I have to tell you, that's not how he comes off to me without benefit of further characterization.  I'd never have thought, "Tryion, what a nice guy" except for two instances.   Mostly he just seemed very petulant and prone to whining to me.   They finally started clearing that up when Oberyn made the scene and Tywin was just so poisonous to him.   But here's how Show Tyrion seemed to me:  

 

It was clear that fandom loved the guy and it was a little bit puzzling, because I assumed it had to do with the actor, since there actually isn't much to Tyrion onscreen other than really, really wanting to drink and then whereas book Tyrion is besotted with Shae, we meet him for the first time mid-drunken-orgy on the show.  He's more comparable to Robert than any other character, except that rather than constantly wanting to stage tournaments, he throws his family's money around like crazy and the thing the show did (understandably) really tone down, is any actual reaction to Tyrion being a dwarf that is negative.   The show makes such a big deal of people calling him The Imp and whereas in the book, all the other surrounding treatment makes it obvious, "Oh....in the fantasy genre sense of the word....goblin, got it."  The word Imp doesn't actually have a negative meaning.  It's just means a mischievous kid.  Doesn't really make a person say, "Oh...burn!"  

 

And he acts like a spoiled child in the show a lot.  The way he behaved when he had to marry Sansa was ....dude, the fourteen-year-old was far outpacing him in terms of maturity.  By miles and miles.  Leagues.  He asked her once, "Do you want to go through with this engagement to Joffrey?"  , she answers him in a manner that he clearly picks up as the "line I have learned to recite so as to not be killed" ....and that's all we ever hear about that.  "Clearly you don't and fear for your life.  Pity.  Where's Shae?"  

 

The one, "Gosh, that was nice and fairly saintly" thing that he did involves stopping a roomful of men from stripping a teenager naked and beating her with the flat of the sword for the King's entertainment.  Then he takes her clearly bullshit answer as some evidence that she can take care of herself and promptly forgets about it.    Show Tryion's just not that great of a guy and he's always getting other people into all kinds of trouble because -- again minus all but one memorable scene of Tywin being so cruel to him it was breathtaking -- he feels so sorry for himself for being a dwarf, while essentially, all-around him people just treat him as a Lannister.  

 

He also really isn't above using that to his advantage by asking for a trial by combat fairly consistently, and getting some other poor sod killed.  Then I just don't even want to talk about the babysitting act that poor Varys had to do as Tryion whined endlessly about needing to get out of the caravan....so he could go to a brothel, practically tell all and sundry who he was ....and to get drunk. 

 

Show Tyrion isn't a Saint, although I agree, they lost a lot of his edgier, meaner stuff....he's nice when it suits him, but mostly he's kind of a drunk who gets told, "you're sooooooo good at all manner of governance" and here's what we see of that:  Three things, one of which involves giving a rousing "Let's go kill them!" speech to a bunch of men who respect him enough to listen (thereby negating the "everyone treats me so poorly because I'm a dwarf" some more).  

 

Reading here the other day that they'd made him saintly....well, okay, if you know what his full characterization was supposed to be, that's what is most noticeable.  But Show Tyrion is missing a lot more than his edge.  If it wasn't for Varys constantly telling him how good and special he was, I'd have never guessed it.  He waits until the last possible second to send Shae away because he's incredibly selfish and then has the nerve to look so hurt when she turns on him on the stand....the show handled that one just terribly.   He sends those two prostitutes to Joffrey and the results are just ridiculously sadistic and then Tyrion's reaction to whatever happened to that poor other girl we never see again is sort of "Pity Joffs isn't more interested in getting laid."  

 

Show Tyrion doesn't do anything like send Tommen away, install Bywater, make the shore safer, root out corruption and deftly manipulated Cersie (let alone poison her into being unable to interfere when it suits him). All he does is figure out who Cersei's spy is, he shores up the wildfire and he yells about killing brave men when it come to his prowess as The Hand....and then Varys informs us that "We're not going to forget how you saved us all" .  

 

????

 

All of that is very clear in the book, but show Tyrion hasn't been sanitized and made saintly, from my perspective, he's been made baffling....and all of the "You're so good at this stuff" (which Tyrion even says himself) isn't supported, so it seems like he's flattered in the manner of a Lannister rather than living a life of being poorly treated.  Except for that wedding to Sansa, where she's an actual child and he's supposed to come off as some saintly dude for refusing to rape her.   That's the only time anyone openly jeers at or laughs at him and the reaction from people in our thread was mostly, "how dare Sansa not think of Tyrion's humiliation and think to kneel down so that the crowd wouldn't laugh at him?"  which gobsmacked me so much I can't even describe it.  Sansa was literally being blamed for not having eyes in the back of her head....?  So the one time that they made it obvious that Tryion was victimized, the over-the-top Sansa hatred entirely distracted from it for me. 

 

Sorry to go off, but it has to be clear by now:  I don't like Show Tyrion most of the time.  Much ado about very little there.  

 

I really like Book Tyrion, but it isn't that the very slight tendency towards malice and self-involvement has been removed, because really, only the malice has been removed....it's that Book Tryion is actually good at the stuff the series just tells me he's so good at.  

 

Show Tryion is often closer to Bratdom than Saintdom.  

[nksarmi]

I think Show Tyrion got to have some great moments early on that cemented my love for him.  He immediately caught my attention in season one at the Wall.  He had a positive impact on Jon and some great interactions with Mormont.  Yes, his outward persona is a bit of a sarcastic, rich pompous kid but it's all too clear in little lines here and there that he knows being a Lannister (particularly Tywin's son) is the only thing that has spared him a life of ridicule and permitted him the ability to be well-learned.  Yet, there is also this constant struggle in him that he wants his father's approval while knowing he will never get it solely because he is a dwarf.

 

When he travels south and offers to help make Bran a saddle so that he can still ride even though he is a cripple, he won me forever.  Oddly enough, his interactions with Shae never made much impression on me.  Sure, Peter D has perfect facial expressions in that scene where she takes the stand to indicate his heart break, but it's all of his stuff that had nothing to do with Shae that impressed me more.  While some people like how LF has clawed his way up the ladder, I don't much care for him - at all.  But I do love how the show has tried to keep some of Tyrion's quick wit and how it isn't just his access to Lannister gold, but also his ability to read people and appeal to what will matter most to them that allows him to survive/thrive. 

 

Tyrion on the show does seem to get a little full of himself at times though and make enemies where he could have tried to keep things more even keel. And of course, they do drop some of his more interesting developments in KL. I do wonder if the show has managed to convey one of my favorite things about Tyrion - the fact that he is likely every bit the book worm/academic as Sam is and as they showed Shireen to be before she died.  That scene where he gives Geoffrey the book for his wedding and the idiot boy promptly destroys it so captures the heart of who Tyrion is, but I'm sure it would have been easy to miss just how rare and valuable that book was the way the scene played out.

Edited August 24, 2015 by nksarmi

[Delta1212]

Yeah, I'm pretty confident that Bronn's pig shit line was directly quoting you. The showrunners demonstrated quite a few times that they were paying attention to the fan reaction online and especially to the show only viewers in those places where they could be found. I pretty much guarantee they slipped that in after reading the TWoP thread which was a big enough deal that they definitely would have found it if they were looking for such things, which I know they were because they'd occasionally make comments about doing it and even sent a goody-bag of stuff to a particularly popular Unsullied YouTube reviewer after season 1.

I hadn't thought about it much as regards Tyrion, but you're right. His competence is much more directly on display in the books than on the show.

And I think that applies to a lot of people, actually. Varys, Littlefinger, all the schemers that are supposed to be good at it come across as, well, much better at scheming than their show counter-parts. Even Renly was doing more in the book and he didn't have all that much time on the page. I think Tywin comes across the best in terms of competence on the screen, and I still think the book version is smarter.

If you put all of the major schemers from the book together, I could give you a fairly good run down of their strengths and weaknesses and what level they are playing the "game" on. The show versions? Hell if I know.

[magdalene]

I like book Tyrion because he is a snarker and he has a lot of common sense. Same with his brother.  But ever since I started reading these books I have been told that Tyrion is Martins favorite so I never worry about the character because he has so much author privilege. Just as it's clear watching the TV series that Tyrion is the main character.

[Delta1212]

While some people like how LF has clawed his way up the ladder, I don't much care for him - at all.

Littlefinger in the book reminds me of a used car salesman. He's slimey and obviously untrustworthy, but everyone assumes that because they know they can't trust him and they think they know what he wants, that there is no way he could get one over on them and thus he can be safely used to whatever ends the people around him want to make use of him for.

Only he's a lot more dangerous and ambitious than any of them realize.

Littlefinger on the show, by contrast, is practically a mustache twirling villain that no one in their right mind would trust even in a "I trust you to be predictably untrustworthy" sense. I still sort of enjoy his character, but he doesn't come across as nearly as slick.

[nksarmi]

Littlefinger in the book reminds me of a used car salesman. He's slimey and obviously untrustworthy, but everyone assumes that because they know they can't trust him and they think they know what he wants, that there is no way he could get one over on them and thus he can be safely used to whatever ends the people around him want to make use of him for.

Only he's a lot more dangerous and ambitious than any of them realize.

Littlefinger on the show, by contrast, is practically a mustache twirling villain that no one in their right mind would trust even in a "I trust you to be predictably untrustworthy" sense. I still sort of enjoy his character, but he doesn't come across as nearly as slick.

 

Which sadly did Ned and Catelyn's characters NO favors since he was by in large their downfall and he is practically broadcasting - I want to destroy all things Stark - from the moment you meet him.  I think it's also why some of us bang our heads against the wall when it comes to his relationship with Sansa.

[Holmbo]

Very interesting to read your comparison of book and show Tyrion Shimpy. I think you have a lot of good points.

I think I just bought show Tyrion as a good at ruling because he was good at manipulating people. In tv logic that is the essentials to politics. Of course I read the book at about the same time so maybe I just filled in the gaps for the tv character.

[The Mormegil]

I can't comment on everything else in your post Shimpy (I know I'd get into spoiler territory in order to address certain things) but you do bring up an interesting point that I hadn't considered about fire priests in that I'm curious to know if male fire priests are capable of producing shadow assassins with the average woman. e.g. would Thoros of Myr be able to make a shadowbaby with Dany or is this a trick that is exclusive to fire priestesses like Mel?

 

Mel is a Red Priestess and a Shadowbinder.

 

I've always assumed it's the 2nd of these that give her the power to create Shadowbabies.

 

It's possible that all Red Priests/Priestesses are Shadowbinders but we know it's not a power exclusive to them (Quaithe is one as well, plus

Marwyn also studied Shadowbinding

).

Edited August 24, 2015 by The Mormegil

[magdalene]

 

Which sadly did Ned and Catelyn's characters NO favors since he was by in large their downfall and he is practically broadcasting - I want to destroy all things Stark - from the moment you meet him.  I think it's also why some of us bang our heads against the wall when it comes to his relationship with Sansa.

That's one of the reasons I could never manage to warm up to either Ned or Cat, they are both such easily manipulated dumbasses and self-righteous goody-two-shoes.  Ironically, the one big flaw Cat always gets slammed for by fandom - her unkindness towards Jon - I can totally understand that - I don't know how much kindness I could show if I believed my husband had forced me to raise the product of his unfaithfulness.

[nksarmi]

That's one of the reasons I could never manage to warm up to either Ned or Cat, they are both such easily manipulated dumbasses and self-righteous goody-two-shoes.  Ironically, the one big flaw Cat always gets slammed for by fandom - her unkindness towards Jon - I can totally understand that - I don't know how much kindness I could show if I believed my husband had forced me to raise the product of his unfaithfulness.

I would have less issue with Cat's overwhelming bitterness toward Jon if it were also applied to Ned.  But rather than being merely impartial to Jon (I never asked her to love him - just not be so hateful for goodness sake) and aiming some of that resentfulness at Ned - she by all counts seems to love her husband a great deal.  I think that was the part that left me scratching my head at Cat and her attitude toward Jon. 

 

I've only recently found myself being critical of Ned - since coming here and really thinking about his actions.  Previously, I always considered the moment he went to Cersei to warn her to be his dumbest moment, but I later think that pales in comparison to him trusting Littlefinger and listening to him about anything.  Even if I can forgive Cat for not realizing that LF was a man scorned by her and certainly does NOT have any interest in helping her husband - I would have to believe that Ned should have been smart enough to realize that the boy who was so infatuated with Catelyn that he foolishly challenged his older brother to a duel for her hand only to be rejected by her again when said brother was dead is not the man to entrust with his (and his daughter's) lives AFTER he tells him specifically NOT to trust him.

 

I mean really, the more you think about everything that led to Ned's death and he ends up just being one big damn honorable fool.  I still don't like Catelyn, but I have come to realize that I might have been overly harsh on her by putting all the blame of her family's downfall on her shoulders.  Ned certainly helped.

[magdalene]

I would have less issue with Cat's overwhelming bitterness toward Jon if it were also applied to Ned.  But rather than being merely impartial to Jon (I never asked her to love him - just not be so hateful for goodness sake) and aiming some of that resentfulness at Ned - she by all counts seems to love her husband a great deal.  I think that was the part that left me scratching my head at Cat and her attitude toward Jon. 

 

I've only recently found myself being critical of Ned - since coming here and really thinking about his actions.  Previously, I always considered the moment he went to Cersei to warn her to be his dumbest moment, but I later think that pales in comparison to him trusting Littlefinger and listening to him about anything.  Even if I can forgive Cat for not realizing that LF was a man scorned by her and certainly does NOT have any interest in helping her husband - I would have to believe that Ned should have been smart enough to realize that the boy who was so infatuated with Catelyn that he foolishly challenged his older brother to a duel for her hand only to be rejected by her again when said brother was dead is not the man to entrust with his (and his daughter's) lives AFTER he tells him specifically NOT to trust him.

 

I mean really, the more you think about everything that led to Ned's death and he ends up just being one big damn honorable fool.  I still don't like Catelyn, but I have come to realize that I might have been overly harsh on her by putting all the blame of her family's downfall on her shoulders.  Ned certainly helped.

You make an excellent point - Cat should have reserved some of her resentment towards Jon for Ned. Human nature being what it is realistically she should have resented the hell out of cheating spouse and Jon. But I guess that would have not fitted into the story Martin was trying to tell of what kind of marriage Ned and Cat had.

Ned and Cat helped him a lot but the one I blame the most for their downfall is Littlefinger himself - what a talent for destruction that man has.

[Holmbo]

I think it's perhaps a coping mechanism by Cat. She's been told it's her duty to love and obey this man. She knows she'll have to spend her whole life with him. So since she was so hurt by his inconsideration of bringing his bastard to live with them yet couldn't really do anything about it she probably just tried to ignore those feelings. She loved Ned apart from this one betrayal and she resented Jon for reminding her about this one hurt she has no way to retaliate against. I think if it was modern times she probably would have divorced Ned. Or at least the knowledge that she could would have made it easier for her to deal with it.

This is just my speculations about Cat's feelings at the time. I also imagine that Ned handled the whole thing awfully. He probably resented having to lie and most likely did not act at all as he would if he had actually fathered a bastard. If he had I imagine he'd beg Cat for her forgiveness and be extremely regretful. But now he was probably just grumpy about it being all: here is my bastard. I don't want to talk about it or answer any questions. This disconnect from how Ned really would have acted might have made it easier for Cat to separate her feelings about his unfaithfulness from him.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Holmbo

[Delta1212]

I don't know. Cat's not in on the secret, so as far as she knows, that is how Ned would act in that situation. It's not like there are other examples of him fathering bastards for her to compare against and think "Well, the way he's behaving with this one is just totally out of character. My Ned wouldn't act like this."

And it happened so early in their marriage, after what must have been a very quick courtship and a very long separation for the war, this would have been one of their earliest interactions, so it's not like Cat would have had years of prior experience telling her that Ned wasn't himself.

On the contrary, this would have been early enough and big enough to color her perception of what his personality is from the start. Even if, over time, she got to know him much better, it's hard to shake first impressions, especially when they keep being reinforced by Ned apparently continuing the behavior throughout their marriage as regards the subject of his bastard.

[stillshimpy]

I would have less issue with Cat's overwhelming bitterness toward Jon if it were also applied to Ned.  But rather than being merely impartial to Jon (I never asked her to love him - just not be so hateful for goodness sake) and aiming some of that resentfulness at Ned - she by all counts seems to love her husband a great deal.  I think that was the part that left me scratching my head at Cat and her attitude toward Jon.

 

I think that Catelyn's  irrational resentment of Jon is actually about Ned.  That she just displaces all the fury she feels over Ned's dishonoring her because that's what it's about, it's not about him having had a "baseborn" son, it's about bringing the kid home to be raised under their roof.   At different points in the story it becomes clearer that they didn't even know each other when they got married. 

 

That she did her duty -- Catelyn thinks about this as her father is dying -- and did as she was told, but that Ned was a stranger to her when they got married. What a giddy wedding night that must have been, eek where all participants are -- if not lying back and thinking about England -- more of the "let's get this part over with and cement our familial alliance.  The only one likely having a worse night was poor friggin' Crazypants Lysa because talk about getting the short end of the stick. 

 

I guess I never realized that Lysa was meant to have been quite lovely in her own right when they were younger.  What a bitter disappointment that would be in a world where beauty and fortune was supposed to secure a good match.   Getting married off to a twice-widowed guy old enough to be your grandfather was historically the lot of the otherwise unwanted.  

 

But from Cat's perspective, she marries overly solemn Ned, does her duty and apparently doesn't even really resent the whole "had a bastard son" because she's grown up her whole life knowing that men do that.  Particularly men at war.   She resents him bringing the kid home and expecting to acknowledge to all and sundry "Yes, my husband is raising this bastard in our home, alongside our son."   Then he won't even speak of the woman he's alleged to have boffed, leaving her forever wondering who she was and apparently believing that this woman was the great love of Ned's life.  

 

So it's that he not only dishonors her -- but in a way she sort of knows is commonplace enough -- it's that he totally rubs it in her face by refusing to even be contrite. 

 

Now NONE of that excuses treating a small child unkindly.  For one thing, they are people of tremendous means.  If Cat had truly wanted to, she could have simply assigned Jon his own nurse, ignored him and just gone about her business.  But Ned does nothing to alleviate Catelyn's fears, insecurities and outright anger that she lives in a world where he'd basically get to publicly flog her and turn her out into the streets, set her aside, whatever, if she had done something even vaguely similar.  

 

The way Catelyn treats Jon has almost nothing to do with Jon.  He's like her whipping boy (not a literal one, I think she was verbally and emotionally abusive) for every gender inequality issue and as far as I can tell, Ned picked the worst possible way to actual show how guilty he felt about deceiving Catelyn/dishonoring her/going against everything in his nature -- he didn't stop her.  He did not shut that shit down.  As near as I can tell he just lets it go on, specifically because he does know he's doing something grossly unfair to her, because he's insisting that whole damned world know "this is my son" and the person he won't tell anything more than that, is the one person who -- not unjustly -- feels like she's the one who has been most wronged.  

 

So it doesn't speak well of Catelyn that she takes all that out on Jon, at all, but it isn't even specifically about Jon and then Ned lets it continue (when he shouldn't have) because he does feel so guilty for the manner in which he is publicly and daily shaming his wife.   It wasn't unusual in our own past history for illegitimate children to be acknowledged and even sometimes very well provided for by the natural parents.  But bringing one home to be raised alongside your spouse's real children was almost unheard of in our world.  

 

Then I think the whole thing is sort of compounded by the fact that Cat knows she's being incredibly unfair to the most blameless party in all of this, but he's quite literally the physical embodiment of the gender inequality in their world, because if Catelyn had done what Ned did -- allegedly sought comfort and love from another in the very early days of their marriage when they were almost perfect strangers and a thousand miles from each other -- Ned would practically legally be allowed to kill her for it and if he was a King, there'd be no "practically" about it, it would be actually. 

 

In a weird way all three of them are victims of this bizarre system, but Jon gets the most sympathy because he was the person young enough to have ZERO understanding of why that all was, and was entirely blameless for existing.  

 

There's also this really hairy, thorny problem with the entire "...and furthermore, Jon might be Lyanna's son by Rhaegar Targaryen" ....in that Ned truly did dishonor Catelyn by not trusting her with that.  

 

Even after even I started to catch on that if we could barely go four episodes without someone speculating about Jon not being Ned's son -- which was from season one on -- that there was likely something to it, the show did something the series did not....they very carefully constructed Catelyn's every line about Jon to indicate that if that was the case?  She likely knew Jon wasn't Ned's son.  "Came home with another woman's child" "Couldn't forgive him for who his mother was"  absolutely every line Catelyn ever has about Jon in the show neatly sidesteps her EVER calling Jon Ned's bastard son "poor motherless child" and when she talks to Talisa about praying, she says "give him the Stark name"  and still manages to not in anyway indicate that he would then be Ned's legitimate son...just a legitimate Stark.  

 

But the books make it clear, she really, really thinks that Jon is Ned's son and weirdly, it makes Catelyn in the series look actually worse because of it.  Her poor treatment of Jon is toned down a lot in the show, but because her dialogue dances around it enough to make it seem like, "Wait, she seems to know what the gig is on some level....so why in the world would she be that unkind to him?"   ....and weirdly the only thing that would make that understandable is that he's supposed to be Rhaegar's son and she has a blinding hatred of all things Targ....because she loved Brandon so much.  

 

It's a funny kind of dance that the book vs. show performs and no matter how you look at it, it was insanely unfair to Jon.  Apparently Edric Storm was raised where he was conceived, and cared enough about that Cortnay Penrose was literally willing to die rather than surrender him to Stannis, because he's known to be the son of the King, even if he is a bastard, he's a higher born bastard.  

 

I really wish I liked Jon more than I do, but I don't dislike him.  I do feel sorry for him because Ned made just about every mistake he could in the world about him, even if it was born of loving him so much.  

Edited August 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

I can't understand why Ned didn't trust Cat with the secret, except that it keeps readers in the dark too.  I try to justify it by thinking, yeah, Ned comes home from war with an infant and he really didn't know Cat very well.  His intention was to tell her later but somehow never got around to it.  Maybe he thought she'd be angry at him for not telling her right away.  Maybe she groused enough about Targs that he decided it was better to keep pretending Jon was his.  The whole plotline is kind of clunky and, despite Martin's reputation for breaking the mold, it is cliched: the hidden prince who finds his destiny and saves the world.  

 

Ned was really kind of a jerk. 

[nksarmi]

Shesh when you dissect it on that level, more blame should be put on Ned's shoulders for Jon feeling unloved that I originally realized.  I think on the surface what we get is a bastard boy raised as almost an equal (kind of like Theon is a captive who is almost a member of the family) with siblings who love him (they really do a considerable job to show - at least - Jon having a good relationship with Robb, Bran, and Ayra) and a father who does as well (though he never legitimized him). 

 

In a way, it actually should have been odd to anyone and everyone who observed the situation that Ned never legitimized Jon - he certainly had a close enough relationship with Robert B to do so (if it even requires a king to do it - I can't remember).  All Ned would have had to do is ask and it would have been done.  Ned certainly seems to love Jon as much as his other children and it isn't as if legitimizing him would have messed with the line of succession (he still would have been below all of Catelyn's sons).  The only reasonable explanation to not do it is because it would offend Catelyn, but how could it offend her more than he is already doing by raising him in his home.

 

Now fandom's explanation all revolves around rather or not Rhaegar is Jon's true father and whatever the hell "promise me Ned" ends up meaning.  But no one in the story has that information.  It's a shame GRRM didn't give us more hints from Ned's POV before he died.

 

So we end up with Ned not doing all he could to shut down Catelyn's rage against Jon, not sharing his secrets (which I have said before that given her personality and what we saw of her actions in regards to Jamie - it's probably a good idea that he doesn't trust her with that info, but that isn't the point at the moment), and in a way, letting Jon taking the abuse in his stead (which makes him look far weaker than I first imagined). 

 

But there are some questions as to rather or not Ned was really a good ruler.  He certainly seems that way initially since he is a father whose children love him and a man who people would go to war and die for.  However, as many have pointed out, the Boltons certainly seem to be running amok under his rule and I believe at some point, we do get from his POV that he wasn't raised to rule - his older brother was.  He is strong enough to butt heads with Robert B, but not good enough to rule for him as John A must have done before he died (and even HE couldn't stop the kingdom from going into major debt - I think that was originally LF's diabolical plan - bankrupt the kingdom while getting personally rich).  Then there is the debate about rather or not Ned was wise enough to discern between the letter of the law and the essence of right and wrong - we get those snippets with the guy he executes early on as a deserter and Jorrah who he exiles for slaving.  So while Ned dies before he can really break down as a character - detailed reflection does make you wonder how good he really was.

[stillshimpy]

I can't understand why Ned didn't trust Cat with the secret, except that it keeps readers in the dark too.  I try to justify it by thinking, yeah, Ned comes home from war with an infant and he really didn't know Cat very well.  His intention was to tell her later but somehow never got around to it.  Maybe he thought she'd be angry at him for not telling her right away.  Maybe she groused enough about Targs that he decided it was better to keep pretending Jon was his.

 

Or maybe that it's that what the series sort of hints at -- that whatever the gig with Jon was, Catelyn was in on it but hated Jon nonetheless -- is supposed to also be the truth of the matter:  That Ned fears that Catelyn would hate Jon even more if she knew that he was Rhaegar's son because she did love Brandon.   The TV series makes it clear that she was supposed to be pretty smitten with him, at least as far Littlefinger can be believed. 

 

So Catelyn hates the boogers out of this poor kid, because he's the embodiment of all that isn't fair to women in their world, but also indicates that Ned had someone he loved so dearly he never stopped loving her.   

 

That Ned was afraid to tell Catelyn, because she loved Brandon and Ned assumed she wouldn't keep Jon's secret.  Again, if he's suppose to be Rhaegar's son and ....the whole bed of blood, guarded by the remaining Kingsguard even though Rhaegar is known to be dead makes it seem sort of obvious "Well, if that kid is Lyanna's then he's Lyanna's son by Rhaegar, even if Lyanna was just Rhaegar's captive.  

 

The reason I disilke the plot is that, basically, it's just sort of silly.  It would be far less of "oh for god's sake" and more "yeah, human nature is tough one" Ned had just been enough of a human being to have screwed up in a normal way, rather than convoluting the definition of honor to "I have to keep my promise to my sister, must keep her son at hand because he is my blood and I love him, will sacrifice my family's reputation for honor by being the one alleged adulterer in the bunch, shame and hurt my wife.....but that's the more honorable thing."  

 

I mean, it really does make him a fairly dim Dudley Do-right type and takes honor to an absurd level.  It's a goofy flaw to give someone:  His flaw is that he is far, far too honorable and self-sacrificing.  

 

Combine that with "....and Jon's totes the special, magical and hidden spawn!"  and it just gets...silly.   

 

 

 

n a way, it actually should have been odd to anyone and everyone who observed the situation that Ned never legitimized Jon - he certainly had a close enough relationship with Robert B to do so (if it even requires a king to do it - I can't remember).  All Ned would have had to do is ask and it would have been done.  Ned certainly seems to love Jon as much as his other children and it isn't as if legitimizing him would have messed with the line of succession (he still would have been below all of Catelyn's sons).  The only reasonable explanation to not do it is because it would offend Catelyn, but how could it offend her more than he is already doing by raising him in his home.

 

Right?  It's clearly not about "I couldn't do that to my wife!" since, for starters, Robb's older and right after that is the "hard to claim, I couldn't do that to my wife" when he's forcing her to raise his bastard son in their midst, kind of grinding in the "you're powerless to stop me"  of it all.  

 

So it would seem really quite weird and it's even weirder if Ned's reasoning is "I couldn't take lying to that level....I couldn't give him the Stark name....when it's the father's name that should be his...."  because...oh for fuck's sake!  That's just goofy. 

Edited August 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I've been thinking about that, and honestly? I think Ned was right not to trust Book Cat at least.

There are a lot of layers to this particular secret and each one makes it more dangerous. To start, Jon is the son of the woman that the King most loved and the man he most hated. That alone is not going to endear him to Robert, and getting on the bad side of a king, especially a king with a wrath the size of Robert's is plenty dangerous.

But he's also more than that. He's also the former Crown Prince, who Robert killed. That's doubly dangerous. On the one hand, if Jon ever found out who he was, whose to say he wouldn't come looking for vengeance? Personally, I doubt he would, but that wouldn't be an unrealistic fear on Robert's part.

And more than that, Jon becomes a potential focal point for resistance to his reign. The disaster that followed Robert's death shows just how unstable his rule really was. Taking the throne by force isn't exactly conducive to an orderly, lawful succession, especially when you don't pay much attention to shoring up support for your dynasty once you've established it.

Be they Targaryen loyalists, or people who just want to use Jon to advance their own positions, Rheagar's son would be a huge potential banner to rally around against the Baratheon royalty.

That makes everything Ned is doing basically the highest treason imaginable short of actually trying to kill Robert. Book Catelyn especially, who is very aware of and concerned with the political risks of everything to her family, moreso than the show version, would have been keenly aware of just how dangerous having Jon around would have been to her own children.

And I don't see a fondness for Ned or his dead doing much to blunt that risk in her eyes. She might have stood by Ned... Or she might not have. And that would have been a gamble he couldn't take back that could easily cost Jon's life.

I can totally see why he did it, even if it wasn't fair to anyone involved.

[stillshimpy]

Delta all of that (again, if it's true) is precisely why bringing Jon home to raise as his son was the dumbest damned thing he could do.   

 

He should have sent him home with Howland Reed and if later there was legend of a Snow or Sand or Leaf or whatever the bastards of Reed's land were called that looked one hell of a lot of like a Stark...."Looks like Brandon sowed a wild oat"  "Karstark blood will out"  "So Benjen Stark fathered a bastard by some town's woman and sent the boy to live with the Reeds."   

 

The ONLY thing that puts Jon in danger of being found out as Lyanna's son, if he is (and let's face it, he's not Ned's)  ...is that freaking Ned dragged him home and raised him as a Higher born bastard rather than giving him to a blacksmith's family through Reed and paying for his keep. 

 

Oh and by the way?  Reed would have known.  So that blows all the "can't tell a flippin' soul without tremendous danger" out of the water and makes it an even dumber idea to take him back to Winterfell, should Reed prove untrustworthy.  So he had to trust with every fiber of his being that Reed would keep the secret and not tell anyone exactly where to find the boy, but he couldn't tell his wife? 

Edited August 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Skywarpgold]

 

Oops, nevermind, shimpy beat me to it :-)

Edited August 25, 2015 by Skywarpgold

[stillshimpy]

By the way, I'm sure that all of this is covered under the "Whatever Hyper-Specific details on the overly intricate promise that Lyanna Stark extracted from Ned as she was dying" whatever that might have contained, but oh.my.gawd would that ever make Lyanna Stark the most annoying human being that ever lived.  "Promise me, Ned! Promise me you will raise him as your own, but never, ever tell a soul who he is, for fear that Robert will get all Baratheon on his infant-ass! Promise me!"  

 

"Technically, Lyanna, Howland Reed is going to sort of know if I exit this room with a babe....what am I to say?  One of the Kingsguard had it? I can't kill Reed, you know."  

 

"Well, aside from Reed, promise me that you will raise him as your own blood and kin....tell the world that he is your son....but otherwise conceal the truth lest the worst happen..." 

 

"Uh...." 

 

"I'm bleeding out here, Ned, time is of the essence, promise me, Ned." 

 

"Can I tell Catelyn?"  

"No one must ever know!" 

"But....Reed?"  

 

"No one but you and Reed must ever know...."  

"Can I send him to foster...."

"Absolutely fucking not.  I'll only feel as if he is safe if he's in the most obvious place in the damned world for someone to look for him, lest someone noticed I was pregnant these past nine months..."  

 

"What a good plan.  I promise."  

Edited August 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Holmbo]

By the way, I'm sure that all of this is covered under the "Whatever Hyper-Specific details on the overly intricate promise that Lyanna Stark extracted from Ned as she was dying"

You beat me to it Shimpy :)

 

Howland seeing the baby wouldn't technically be Ned telling him so I think he'd be fine as long as he didn't admit to it.

"So what are you going to do with her child"

"It's not her child, it's mine. I fathered it at the start of the war."

"Dude I went into the tower with you. I saw Lyanna giving birth."

"This is my bastard son."

[ambi76]

Speaking of Ned's general dumbassery, I always found it insanely dumb how he reacted to Jaime when confronted with the news of Cat's abduction of Tyrion. Instead of being all: "Oh my, seems my wife has gone too far, I will rectify this immediately, never fear." He is all: "She totally did this on my order. Let's have a big fight!" Aaargh.

 

As for the "Tower of Joy" (right), Lynna's last wishes might turn out to have been tiny little bit over the top, yeah.

Edited August 25, 2015 by ambi76