Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

Alayne Stone · April 26, 2016

For what it's worth, Shimpy, GRRM has already stated that the show would have absolutely no bearing on the future books he writes. He doesn't consider it in the slightest, so I don't see him going out of his way to deliberately write the plots differently for the sake of it all being new. He's just going to keep doing what he does, completely ignoring show cannon.

That said, I don't think it would even matter. There are so many circumstances that exist in the show that simply are impossible to occur in the books because of several characters being dead where they are still alive in the one, and several characters existing in one where they don't at all in the other. I've never felt so confident about the show not spoiling the books in the least as I was after the episode last night.

stillshimpy · April 26, 2016

Hehe, no I just think the video is adorable :-)

glowbug · April 26, 2016

Dany eventually did tell Jorah that her dragons were the only children she would ever have though, so the show did get around to having Dany seemingly believe it. Not from anything Mirri Muraz (or whatever) said though.

Plus, yeah we actually had more than one get caught that way. Including a woman over on TWoP who claimed she was taking her med school finals, while pregnant and had just checked her dvd copies and reported that yes, MM had said it. Only....she hadn't. Come to think of it, I've no real reason to believe that that poster was actually a woman, I just found it to have a lot of flourish....not merely a medical student, conversant with wombs, but a pregnant one, no less.

I guess she/he believed a good con was in the details :-)

ETA: I also admit to revisiting this thread repeatedly throughout the day so as to play Terra's video over and over :-)

I wonder why Dany believes she's infertile since it wasn't part of the prophesy. Even stranger she believes the prophesy has to be fulfilled for her to be fertile again. If Mirri didn't tell her how did she come to that conclusion?

OhOkayWhat · April 26, 2016

@ OhOkayWhat

Well, Gulltown is also discussed in the HBO Viewers guide for season 1 and 2. There it is described as the largest city and port of the Vale. But even if we pretend it doesn't exist, assuming the Vale, the region closest to the continent of Essos, has ships is a fairly safe bet. As for Stannis, yes he had ships transport an army from Essos to the Wall (without much of a problem, it would seem) but we don't know what happened with those ships afterwards (they are never mentioned again). However, assuming that they are still available to him, there is nothing they can do to stop ships from the Vale unless they have prior knowledge that the ships are leaving. If they knew in advance, sure, Stannis' fleet could attempt to meet the Vale ships as they move North, although it would be sailors and pirates on Stannis' side vs sailors and soldiers on the Vale's side. And why would they have knowledge of this fleet anyway? If they don't know it's coming, there's nothing that Stannis' fleet can do to stop the Vale ships. The Northern coastline is enormous and there are way too many landing points for Stannis' fleet to stop the Vale's fleet.

As for weather... Well yes, weather is an important detail, and travelling by sea in late Autumn/early winter could be tricky. But as we've seen from Stannis, travelling by foot in the North is just as dangerous, maybe even more so. Littlefinger is planning to invade the North during, at best, late autumn and, at worst, early winter. What are his plans if the weather turns bad and he ends up trapped, just like Stannis' army was? And why would Roose allow a Vale army past Moat Cailin anyway, now that he has already defeated Stannis? He may believe himself to be allied with LF, but that doesn't mean that he's going to allow a foreign army into his lands when there is no reason. That's another advantage of using ships: there's nothing Roose can do to stop it.

Roose can't know that Cersei is going to wreck the Tyrell alliance. He barely knows the woman and even if he believes her to be incompetent, he can't expect her to destroy it so completely in such a short amount of time. In the books, even LF is surprised at how quickly Cersei is destroying it. So I can't see why Roose is expecting no reprisals if Sansa is discovered. Again, just because the Lannisters might not invade the North, that doesn't mean they won't do anything else. I've already listed possibilities, but here they are again: hire assassins, cut off food and other supplies from the North, find Northern Lords prepared to betray Roose (not difficult) etc. Roose can't expect Cersei to ignore so blatant a treason as marrying Sansa Stark, and indeed she doesn't. Nor can he guarantee that he won't be rumbled.

Sansa has no plan. And LF didn't give her one. The goal of her being in Winterfell isn't even obvious; some vague notion of revenge isn't enough. Is she to kill Roose? Make allies? Have heirs and prepare them to rule the North? No idea. Sansa has no plan, long or short, that would allow her to do anything. She can't meet other Northern Lords, because they aren't going to be at the wedding and travelling during winter is more than a tad difficult. So building alliances is out of the question. She has no escape plan if things turn bad, no allies to turn to in a pinch, no resources to make use of and no advice from LF to use. In fact, the only advice she receives from him is wholeheartedly ignored. She appears stupid, and if the TV audience believe Sansa is a complete moron I can't blame them. Do you think most TV audience members looked at Sansa's decision to accept the marriage and thought 'well, she must have some kind of plan here' or 'you bloody idiot, what the hell are you doing?!'?

As for LF... Well, he could lie and say Sansa was kidnapped. Of course, he has to guarantee the silence of the Vale soldiers who escorted them there and anyone in the Riverlands/North/Vale who saw them head to Winterfell. All it would take is one loose-lipped guard and Yohn Royce will have LF's head on a spear. Is LF going to murder every guard who travelled with them? How will he explain how the kidnapper got Sansa out of the Vale, through the Riverlands, past Moat Cailin and all the way to Winterfell? And in all that time, why did LF not tell Royce and the others? Did LF not send out rescue parties to bring her back? Etc. etc. That's a lot of questions that LF has to answer correctly or he'd dead. Royce and the others will not hesitate to kill him if they suspect him of treachery. And it's not like they need him to lead them North. And what happens if they get North, rescue Sansa and she says 'LF married me to Ramsey Bolton'? How's LF going to talk his way out of that one? Because there is no way he can guarantee Sansa being on his side after the marriage. If she requests LF's head on a nice, shiny platter, you think Royce and the others will refuse? And again, LF is planning to invade the North during winter. What are his plans for that?

And yeah, Ramsey was the main character in this story. Where was Theon's transformation from Reek to Theon? It didn't happen. Where was Sansa actually doing something for once? Nowhere. Sassy remarks and refusing toasts don't mean that you're a pro-active character. Ramsey got a girlfriend (with a completely pointless arc of her own), daddy issues, and probably the most screentime of the three (definitely more than Theon, anyway).

Sansa is still a victim in the books, I agree. But that isn't all she is. She makes decisions, takes pro-active choices and risks her life to free herself from King's Landing. In the show, all she is is a victim. Nothing else. And that makes her a weak character.

WSmith84, (season 5 spoilers)

About Littlefinger:

We need to analyze his plan with the facts he knew at the moment tha he made the plan. He knew:

1) Weather was changing

2)Stannis had troops, ships in the North

3)Stannis was trying to get the Houses of the North at his side.

The 3rd is very important because if Stannis get the people of a strategic coast area, then all the Petyr sea plans could fail. Widows Watch port, is an example.

So Weather+Stannis+strategical allies in the coast of the North= invasion using ships is not a good plan.

Also, of course, going on foot is risky too, but look at it from Littlefinger POV:A single storm in the sea and he can lose all the troops in a single moment.In the other hand,it seems like the weather is changing from the North towards the South, it gives him two places to rest and check the weather. The Twins ( because of that, it is important to convince Cercei) and Moat Cailin (because of that, it is important to convince Roose.

About the Vale Knights telling the truth, I think he said he paid them. And I suspect he thinks Sansa trust him and she see the both of them as a team.

About Roose:

He talks about Cercei with Littlefinger. Also he could know about the old Tyrell ambitions about the Iron Throne. And he know about Margaery wedding, that gives Cercei enough to deal. Also Petyr and Roose talk about how the Lannister house is falling after the death of Tywin. It is kinds clear that is what Roose believes, and the thing is he was not wrong about judging the politics skills of Cercei.

And that is the reason to have a long term plan: to have a Bolton-Stark heir and keep the marriage secret at the moment.That will make Cercei oblivious about the marriage and it will give her enough time to ruin her own house. The fact Petyr is surprised about how fast she does that does not mean that it is the same in the show. In fact he and Roose seems pretty sure that will happen after Tywin death. The death of Tywin changed the whole thing for both of them.

About Sansa:

In narrative, you do not need to show everything. Correct me if I am wrong but they never show Varys and Oleanna talking about what exactly they will do about Sansa. We only know they are plotting and after that we see the plan in motion or at least it seems like it is the plan in motion. But we know who they are before, so we know they made a plan with details included.

The same happens with Petyr and Sansa: they do not talk about the details, but two things are clear: she will marry Ramsay and the plan includes she becoming Wardeness. But we know more stuff too: we know about a guy who faked being an ally, betrayed a family and killed the young king under the noses of everyone and nobody blames him. We also know that the same guy told all of that to a girl. We also know the same guy and the same girl now are plotting to fake an alliance. It does not need too much to imagine this plan will include elements of the previous one.

It is a narrative decision to make the characters talk about stuff or let the audience fill the gaps. And about Sansa not being able to do a lot in Winterfell, well, I think that is the one of the points of Sansa in Winterfell plot: to show the terrible teacher Petyr is. To show he manipulated her, thinking in his own benefit.

Edited April 26, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

stillshimpy · April 28, 2016

Okay, so part of the reason that I can just sally forth, unfazed by whatever weirdness the show perpetrates has to do with a couple of things you guys are talking about for season five.

I wonder why Dany believes she's infertile since it wasn't part of the prophesy. Even stranger she believes the prophesy has to be fulfilled for her to be fertile again. If Mirri didn't tell her how did she come to that conclusion?

Maybe it is because she knows she gave dead to a worm-filled, scaly monster instead of a child? Even he was dead on arrival. Even if she convinced herself that Rhago's life was traded for Drogo's there will still be the whole "scaled, not human, had wings" thing with which to contend.

Although I guess the simplest answer would be the most likely: she doesn't menstruate any longer, or she was telling Jorah that she never planned on marrying again? Not sure.

As to the season five

knowing that Sansa at Winterfell was not something that Martin wrote is actually a huge relief on multiple levels. Sure he still had something hideous and unforgivable happen to Jeyne Poole, but at least it made some damned sense as a plan for the Bolton's to undertake. It really developed Theon's arc , it was horrible but it served a purpose. The problem with what happened with the show was it felt gratuitous. It was still about Theon's development, which is insulting, and then beyond that? It made no sense as a plan.

I could grab a hold of a lot of the things that the show has changed and most of my outrage has stemmed from the "horrible!" and has been fed continuously by the "makes no fucking sense!!!"

Also, knowing that there are bright spots in the narrative the show just decided to ditch helps. What also helps? Knowing that Martin is focusing on a wealth of characters instead of a select few that are all unlikeable.

I just don't have a level of anger with the show now because I didn't anticipate an adaptation for years. Reading the books has been -- all dog fuckwittery aside, because that shit is not okay -- a giant relief. This isn't just a callous, dark tale told in unrelenting grimness where only the truly disgusting ever catch a break. Having the books serve as my antidote to my show rage has weirdly engendered a feeling of "Huh, I wonder what absolute bizarreness they'll pull now?"

Season five

although I take it I am going to subjected to the burning of Shireen in this coming book, in season five that really was just the last fucking straw on top of a full camel's worth of "Why am I even doing this to myself??"

Haleth · April 28, 2016

Huh. That just reminded me that yes, in the book Dany does begin to menstruate again (or maybe miscarries) as she walks away from the mountain but they haven't shown that (yet) in the show. It's kind of an important point.

glowbug · April 29, 2016

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Huh. That just reminded me that yes, in the book Dany does begin to menstruate again (or maybe miscarries) as she walks away from the mountain but they haven't shown that (yet) in the show. It's kind of an important point.

The prophecy has been fulfilled in the books but not the show. Since there is no Quentyn Martell (the sun who rises in the west and sets in the east),

and they killed off Trystane

they're going to need another sun to fulfill the prophecy.

OhOkayWhat · April 29, 2016

@stillshimpy (season 5 spoilers)

Spoiler

In my opinion, one of the big problems with the show is that I think the art has a responsibility to society, and Game of Thrones fails on that. But the Winterfell plot makes (mostly) sense. Of course we should not forget the whole plot involves manipulation and in the case of Sansa it is very clear she is being manipulated.

Edited April 29, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

Haleth · April 29, 2016

Incidentally, Jack Gleeson (Joffrey) is in town (Indy) for Comic Con this weekend. (They are also filming American Ninja Warriors just around the corner from the convention center so that should be an interesting mix of visitors.)

Edited April 29, 2016 by Haleth

WindyNights · April 29, 2016

18 hours ago, glowbug said:

The prophecy has been fulfilled in the books but not the show. Since there is no Quentyn Martell (the sun who rises in the west and sets in the east),

Hide contents

and they killed off Trystane

they're going to need another sun to fulfill the prophecy.

This doesn't make any sense to me because the prophecy isn't fulfilled.

The point of the prophecy is to tell her when Drogo will return to her not when she'll bear a living child.

If you want to count Drogon returning to her as Drogo returning to her then I have to say the prophecy was false.

First she has to bear a living child for Drogo to return to her.

glowbug · April 29, 2016

Just now, WindyNights said:

This doesn't make any sense to me because the prophecy isn't fulfilled.

The point of the prophecy is to tell her when Drogo will return to her not when she'll bear a living child.

If you want to count Drogon returning to her as Drogo returning to her then I have to say the prophecy was false.

First she has to bear a living child for Drogo to return to her.

You're right. I should have phrased that differently. Her womb quickening is part of the prophecy, not a fulfillment of it. I may be fanwanking here but I sort of assumed that each part of the prophecy had to be fulfilled in order to fulfill the next part. Her womb wouldn't quicken again until the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and the seas dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves. Now that her womb has quickened she can bear a living child and once that happens Drogo will return to her. Seems like it may be hinting that she'll die in childbirth or shortly after but who knows.

Alayne Stone · April 30, 2016

Sansa's also one of my favorite characters (obv, judging by the user name) ... but one of my biggest gripes with the show is that it completely eliminates character agency, specifically their female characters. We saw that with Sansa last season and I've already noticed it again in the first episode of this season with both Daenerys and Arya.

Dany is obviously going to Vaes Dothrak in the books under different circumstances. I don't see her going as a slave and she has always known on some level she would be returning there because she saw the crones bowing to her under the big mountain. The significance of the Dothraki finding her standing next to her "mount" (that mount being a dragon, no less - which obviously trumps all horses) has been completely undermined in the show where the Dothraki don't even seem to recognize the former uniquely white haired khaleesi, despite her Khal being very well known amongst their people. All of Dany's agency is gone in the show.

Similarily, Arya in the books voluntarily drank a potion every night she knew would perpetuate her blindness. She was told every day she could have her eyes back if she only asked, but then she would have to leave the House of Black and White. She always had a choice. That choice was taken from the show. Whether or not the blindness is a "punishment" in the books is still kind of left up in the air as there is no denying the significance of an assassin acolyte having one sense dulled so that she or he might further develop the other four.

In the show there is no doubt left to the viewer that her blindness is a punishment. So that's one choice taken away. We don't know if this is still intended to be part of her training. We don't even know if she's with the House of Black and White anymore. We don't know anything because the show never clarified this issue. All we have to go on are Maise's facial expressions and the immense pity we are supposed to feel for her leads me to suspect that she has indeed been kicked out of the House of Black and White. So that's a second choice taken from her. And a third if she is quite literally begging on the streets for no other purpose than to ... well, beg.

OhOkayWhat · May 1, 2016

@Alayne Stone (Season 5 spoilers)

Spoiler

Character A decides to do X. Character A decides to do Z. Character A is kidnapped. In other words, Character A has agency. Character A has agency. Agency is stolen from character A. This event is part of the character tribulations.

Daenerys kidnapping and Arya blindness are part of their own stories, their own narratives (the show narratives) . It could be a problem if those events in their lives contradicted their own story, but this is not the case.

They also are ongoing stories, that means we know some stuff from them and some stuff we do not know yet.

Edited May 1, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

stillshimpy · May 1, 2016

Quote

Dany is obviously going to Vaes Dothrak in the books under different circumstances. I don't see her going as a slave and she has always known on some level she would be returning there because she saw the crones bowing to her under the big mountain. The significance of the Dothraki finding her standing next to her "mount" (that mount being a dragon, no less - which obviously trumps all horses) has been completely undermined in the show where the Dothraki don't even seem to recognize the former uniquely white haired khaleesi, despite her Khal being very well known amongst their people. All of Dany's agency is gone in the show.

Similarily, Arya in the books voluntarily drank a potion every night she knew would perpetuate her blindness. She was told every day she could have her eyes back if she only asked, but then she would have to leave the House of Black and White. She always had a choice. That choice was taken from the show. Whether or not the blindness is a "punishment" in the books is still kind of left up in the air as there is no denying the significance of an assassin acolyte having one sense dulled so that she or he might further develop the other four.

Season five and season six speculation and

That aspect of Arya's blindness in the show is bugging the hell out of me. First of all, the Waif showing up to just kick her ass ups the victimization aspect even more and makes it even more baffling.

In the book Arya's offered her sight back daily, but understands that it means she will then have to leave. Her blindness is atonement, not simple punishment. She's a much younger character in the books -- at this stage -- but she is making an informed choice.

Season six

in the show so far it looks like Arya will have to earn her sight back through some kind of Daredevil training, it's very odd so far.

In the book the Kindly Man shows up to kick her ass on a regular basis, but if anything I got the impression that Arya's sight was restored when she stopped accepting her blindness as some kind of hair-shirt of atonement. When she fought back with anger about how he had been treating her, not merely with agency, but with something that seemed to be rooted in her respect for her own personhood -- the very fact that rendering her blind was not enough atonement, or punishment, outraged Arya and she busted ye olde Kindly Man.

When it comes to Sansa, in the books she's also left to fight with her wits in a completely different manner. Both Arya and Sansa are left in terribly dangerous situations and called upon to be able to use their judgment and abilities to survive them. Sure, Sansa gets help from a variety of figures (so does Arya) but she is a participant in her own fate, vs. constantly having yet another terribly dire postage label slapped on her ass and being shipped off to an even worse fate.

Also, good points on what MM's prophecy means and what it portends. I sort of assumed that the stuff in the books is actually about how long it will take Dany to live the span of her years and meet him again in their afterlife/heaven/continued existence past death. Not that "House Martell will totally rise! The grass sea will....you'll have a kid! Then hey presto: have your deceased hubby back." More like "You'll do a lot of things and then eventually you'll die and see him again, 'kay?" Although Dany didn't take it that way.

Edited May 1, 2016 by stillshimpy

WSmith84 · May 3, 2016

So I've caved and started watching. And, oh look, Roose

expects them to face a Lannister army for marrying Ramsey to Sansa. So that justification was quickly jettisoned out the window then.

OhOkayWhat · May 3, 2016

11 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

So I've caved and started watching. And, oh look, Roose

Reveal hidden contents

expects them to face a Lannister army for marrying Ramsey to Sansa. So that justification was quickly jettisoned out the window then.

WSmith84, if I understood your commentary correctly (Season 5 and Season 6 spoilers) :

Spoiler

He says that after Sansa escaped from Winterfell. Perhaps he is expecting that, precisely because she ran away and now she will be able to tell a lot of people about the marriage (and all the horrors too), and therefore the Lannister will find about it before Cercei was able to ruin her House. As I said in one of my previous commentaries about Roose and the plan:

"....And that is the reason to have a long term plan: to have a Bolton-Stark heir and keep the marriage secret at the moment.That will make Cercei oblivious about the marriage and it will give her enough time to ruin her own house...."

So, even if there was a chance that the Lannister was able to attack the North, the plan included the very important element of the secrecy to avoid that. Ramsay ruined that and now lots of people (including Kings Landing) will find about the marriage before Cercei was able to ruin her own House. Therefore now Roose fears a Lannister attack.

Edited May 3, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

WSmith84 · May 3, 2016

OhOkayWhat
(season 5 & 6)

Why would Roose be expecting a Lannister army unless it was about Sansa? Littlefinger tells him that the Lannisters will never send an army North, but Roose has no reason to expect one unless they discover Sansa. That was part of the rationale behind the decision; if they got caught, the Lannisters couldn't or wouldn't invade. But now Roose fears exactly that.

Let's say his plan was to keep Sansa secret until after winter, when he woud (hopefully) have the entire North behind him. He's still going to have to deal with a Lannister-Tyrell army (at least) and Roose has no reason to expect the Lannister-Tyrell alliance to fall apart. Basing a future military campaign on the hope that the Lannisters will foolishly and completely wreck their alliance is a dumb move, even if it has actually happened. Based on the information Roose had, he should have expected the Lannisters and the Tyrells to secure their hold on the throne and be much better prepared for a Spring campaign than the North ever would be.

And Sansa. Yeah, if she and Littlefinger had some kind of plan, however vague, the show needed to tell the audience. Because her decision makes her look stupid. Utterly stupid, in fact. Her plan as it stands is 'Step 1: Marry Ramsey, Step 2:...?, Step 3: Revenge.' There's a very important Step 2 that we were never told about.

Mind you, after episode 2, maybe Roose is just that stupid.

My God, Dorne was like putting down a dying animal, wasn't it?

OhOkayWhat · May 3, 2016

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

OhOkayWhat
(season 5 & 6)

Reveal hidden contents

Why would Roose be expecting a Lannister army unless it was about Sansa? Littlefinger tells him that the Lannisters will never send an army North, but Roose has no reason to expect one unless they discover Sansa. That was part of the rationale behind the decision; if they got caught, the Lannisters couldn't or wouldn't invade. But now Roose fears exactly that.

Let's say his plan was to keep Sansa secret until after winter, when he woud (hopefully) have the entire North behind him. He's still going to have to deal with a Lannister-Tyrell army (at least) and Roose has no reason to expect the Lannister-Tyrell alliance to fall apart. Basing a future military campaign on the hope that the Lannisters will foolishly and completely wreck their alliance is a dumb move, even if it has actually happened. Based on the information Roose had, he should have expected the Lannisters and the Tyrells to secure their hold on the throne and be much better prepared for a Spring campaign than the North ever would be.

And Sansa. Yeah, if she and Littlefinger had some kind of plan, however vague, the show needed to tell the audience. Because her decision makes her look stupid. Utterly stupid, in fact. Her plan as it stands is 'Step 1: Marry Ramsey, Step 2:...?, Step 3: Revenge.' There's a very important Step 2 that we were never told about.

Mind you, after episode 2, maybe Roose is just that stupid.

My God, Dorne was like putting down a dying animal, wasn't it?

WSmith84 (Season 5 and Season 6 spoilers) :

Spoiler

"Why would Roose be expecting a Lannister army unless it was about Sansa?...."

Exactly! That is my point. That is the reason the plan needs the element of secrecy.

"....Roose has no reason to expect the Lannister-Tyrell alliance to fall apart....."

Yes, he has. Remember the Littlefinger-Roose conversation in the season 5, we can see from that conversation that Roose has the information to think the power of the Lannister will fall and the Tyrell power will rise, and that the union of both houses will have problems. Petyr is feeding him information, and this gives the audience the chance to wonder: what else Littlefinger is telling Roose?. Also even if there is not an old Tyrell ambition to get the Throne (I doubt that is the case), current times tell him that now maybe the Tyrells have their own plans, after all they first allied with Renly and later they allied with the Lannisters. Petyr also tells Roose about the friendship between Margaery and Sansa and that is an important element to include, because the new Queen power is rising and Cercei power is falling. Also, again, there is the Cercei factor: she is no Tywin, and Roose probably made the political analysis that she could not handle all this changing political environment, and if he did, he was right as we can see. Therefore if he was able to keep the marriage a secret, he had a reason to think he could avoid an attack because he also had reasons to imagine a broken Lannister-Tyrell alliance when Kings Landing finally finds about the marriage.

About Sansa, as I said before, it is a narrative decision. The plan in Sansa mind (Littlefinger is manipulating her and he has his own plan) probably works like this:

-What is the plan objective?

Revenge

-What is the first step?

Marriage

-Why?

To become Wardeness

-When?

When Roose dies.

-How he will die?

This is the point open to the audience to fill. And we should ask ourselves: do we really think Sansa was thinking on to wait until Roose dies as an very old man, happy in his own bed? or we know that Sansa knows the secrets of the Purple wedding?

As I said before, it is a narrative decision to fill the gaps or leave it to the audience to do it.

And about Dorne, I am sad about the deaths, but the foreshadowing of the events in season 6 are already present in season 5, even if the rest of Dorne part in season 5 was not good.

Edited May 3, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

stillshimpy · May 6, 2016

Season five and six.

Presumably someone in the writer's room pointed out that marrying Sansa off to Ramsay would have consequences, not just because "she was married to Tyrion Lannister" but because Cersei wanted her dead. So that little detail must have finally settled in to the "Oh yeah, that's right, if the marriage to Sansa is known in King's Landing....that's sort of going to out me as a traitor, isn't it? Oopsies!

So i think they are just trying to untie the knot of idiocy they concocted when someone, presumably, thought that the audience wouldn't be able to invest in Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya, so they'd better use their favorite punching bag, Sansa! Except that she was already involved in like, four other plots that would mean that the Lannisters would be hunting her down if they ever heard of her continued existence.

It's the Duct-tape will fix anything sort of approach to plotting.

OhOkayWhat · May 7, 2016

12 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Season five and six.

Reveal hidden contents

Presumably someone in the writer's room pointed out that marrying Sansa off to Ramsay would have consequences, not just because "she was married to Tyrion Lannister" but because Cersei wanted her dead. So that little detail must have finally settled in to the "Oh yeah, that's right, if the marriage to Sansa is known in King's Landing....that's sort of going to out me as a traitor, isn't it? Oopsies!

Reveal hidden contents

So i think they are just trying to untie the knot of idiocy they concocted when someone, presumably, thought that the audience wouldn't be able to invest in Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya, so they'd better use their favorite punching bag, Sansa! Except that she was already involved in like, four other plots that would mean that the Lannisters would be hunting her down if they ever heard of her continued existence.

It's the Duct-tape will fix anything sort of approach to plotting.

Shimpy (Season 5 and Season 6 spoilers)

Spoiler

If I understood well and you are saying they forgot the fact that Cercei wants to find Sansa and a retaliation (if she finds about the wedding) is possible and only included the Lannister threat after noticing this missing thing between Season 5 and Season 6, then we need to check Season 5 (episode 5x03) to notice it is not the case:

Roose: It's her name I need, not her virtue.
Petyr: I have delivered everything I've promised.
Roose: And you prepared for the consequences. When the Lannisters hear I've wed Sansa Stark to Ramsay.
Petyr: The Lannister name doesn't mean what it once did. Tywin is dead. He kept his house in power through sheer will. Without him, Jaime has one hand and no allies, Tommen is a soft boy, not a king to fear.
Roose: The Queen will be enraged.
Petyr: Queen Margaery adores Sansa. Cersei is Queen Mother, a title whose importance wanes with each passing day.

This is just a part of the conversation but as you can see, Roose mentions that he is worried about Cercei. And even more, in the same conversation he shows that he intercepted a letter from Cercei to Petyr. So, this is proof that Cercei's retaliation was something present in Roose's mind, and of course, something present in the mind of the writers in Season 5.

Why then, if he was worried about it, Roose decided to continue with the wedding plan?

In brief: because he has a long term problem with the Northern Houses and it seems he thinks that Cercei will not move a finger to help him to solve the problem but she will move more than a finger to get Sansa or to attack the Boltons if she finds about the marriage (and his analysis of Cercei is right). At the same time the Lannister power is fading. And if the wedding is secret (episode 5x06) he thinks that he can solve his problem in the North and at the same time he can avoid Cercei vengeance. Of course, after Sansa-Theon escape in 5x10, the secrecy is lost. And that is the reason he mention the Lannister threat to Ramsay in 6x01.

As you can see, it is not the case of one of the writers noticing something between seasons. The Cercei-Lannister issue is already part of the plot in Season 5.

WSmith84 · May 10, 2016

So, I don't know if you're still watching shimpy but I presume you hated episode 3 because of

Shaggydog's death? I know I did. I had to pause the bloody thing, swear incessantly for a few minutes before having a cuddle and cry with my dog. If Shaggy dies in the books, it better be for a good effing reason George. I suspect that, if that really was Shaggy, it was mostly to save on the costs of animating a direwolf.

By the way, were they trying to get us to think Ned Stark was the bad guy? The way they framed the backstabbing and Bran's outrage looked like an attempt to make Ned look like a dick.

Also, I know armour is about as effective as tissue paper in this show but why do they never have any noble wearing it? A seven vs two loss looks slightly better (or worse, depending on your viewpoint) if none of the seven wear armour.

Oh well, at least Olly's dead.

mac123x · May 13, 2016

Taken from a spoiler tagged comment but not spoilerish itself:

Also, I know armour is about as effective as tissue paper in this show but why do they never have any noble wearing it?

The usual excuse is that it allows the audience to see the actor. Not sure what the excuse was this time because we didn't have any previously identified actors in that scene.

In the GRRM commentary track on S02E09 Blackwater, he had quite a good rant about it. He included an anecdote from his previous TV work where a stuntman lost part of his nose because he wasn't wearing a helmet during a fight scene. IIRC that was the inspiration for Tyrion getting his nose chopped off.

WSmith84 · May 13, 2016

@mac123x

I remember that anecdote. Man I used to love this show. But that was helmet specific; none of Ned's men were wearing any armour at all. So the excuse about seeing an actors face doesn't really work. That's actually one of my big pet peeves in TV and cinema; not wearing armour or armour being basically pointless.

I think that if the character put their helmet on just before a fight or battle, that would strike a happy medium between realism and being able to see the actor's face. Not that seeing an actor's face is always necessary; we didn't need to see Darth Vader's face to understand his thoughts and feelings. In RotJ (before Lucas went and added a bunch of unnecessary crap) all he does is look back and forth between the Emperor and Luke and we understand.

stillshimpy · May 16, 2016

I can't tag anything at the moment, so my general non-spoilery response is: I am still clinging to willful denial about that, WSmith. The unsullied holdover applies:La!La! I don't believe it until I have to!!

Hecate7 · May 22, 2016

On 4/28/2016 at 5:19 PM, stillshimpy said:

Okay, so part of the reason that I can just sally forth, unfazed by whatever weirdness the show perpetrates has to do with a couple of things you guys are talking about for season five.

Maybe it is because she knows she gave dead to a worm-filled, scaly monster instead of a child? Even he was dead on arrival. Even if she convinced herself that Rhago's life was traded for Drogo's there will still be the whole "scaled, not human, had wings" thing with which to contend.

Although I guess the simplest answer would be the most likely: she doesn't menstruate any longer, or she was telling Jorah that she never planned on marrying again? Not sure.

Nobody in the books or on the show ever said that she wasn't menstruating anymore. I think she probably is, actually. There is no reason to think otherwise, except a few random speculations by fans who seem to have confused menstruation with pregnancy or fertility. Now, if her uterus is simply gone, then no, she's not menstruating any longer, but that would mean she has no womb at all. Not sure how or why that would change.

However, in the books there's Mirri Muz Dur's curse, and Dany's pregnancy resulting in a non-human creature, and the three eggs hatching probably because Drogo, Rheago, and MMD herself were traded for them. (Unless of course Viserys counts even though he wasn't in the pyre).

It could be as simple on the show as her having a psychic link with Drogon from the time Viserys was killed, and Drogon telling her things in her head, such as "fire can't kill a dragon," how to hatch the eggs (which was quite the elaborate little spell), and that now that she has dragon babies she won't have any other kind. That could be why she's unburnt, too.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Hecate7

Alayne Stone · May 31, 2016

GRRM just read a new Winds chapter yesterday that has never been read before and BOY IS IT A DOOZY.

Probably the most "action" filled chapter yet.

The POV is:

Damphair.

And we find out exactly what Euron's been up to. And it involves HOTU vision type shenanigans and confirmation that Euron is going to make Ramsay look like a poodle in comparison.

WindyNights · May 31, 2016

Here's the new Aeron chapter in case anyone wants to read it:

https://angrygotfan.com/2016/05/29/the-winds-of-winter-the-damphair-part-1/

it's not just a summary. Real deal and it's amazingly good

Gertrude · June 28, 2016

So, Shimpy - how did you feel watching this season chock full of book knowledge and spoilers?

stillshimpy · June 28, 2016

You know, I was actually just thinking about what a difference a season makes. I'm not sure if it is knowing that so much of the stuff that upset the living hell out of me last season, wasn't in the books, or if is knowing there is simply more to the tale and that helps balance it out.

There's just a world of difference in how I feel about the TV series now vs. last year. I'm not sure if that as to do with what just went down in the most reason season -- because I don't think there was anything on that same "Oh my FLIPPING GODS AND MONSTERS NOOOOOOOOOOO!! No, I say!! And again with oh-fuck-all-y'all-show!" sort of upsetting level this season.

But for the first time since the end of season one I felt good about the entire season, instead of wildly demoralized. Spent part of yesterday looking up ways that the whole "girl with purple snakes in her hair will kill the ice giant" thing is interpreted. I'd never associated it with Littlefinger before, so that was interesting.

I think that really just helps with all of it. Sure, upsetting stuff goes down but it seems less "we've designed this specifically to torture the audience, wheeee!" and honestly, the structure of season six had good momentum too. I think the show runners just did a better job now that they aren't stalling to try and wait for Martin's next installment and have just moved well past the point of the books.

So the answer is, I feel a metric fuckton better, thanks for asking :-) This time last year I was just freaking miserable about a show I pay to watch and this season ender was more of "Cool, nice. Good progress. Aw shit, that had to happen? Okay, fine let's see where you take it" vs. last year's "Oh fuck this, that and the other thing. Especially the other thing. I'm gonna heave my TV off an overpass, become a Luddite and practice making vegan cheez or something equally hippie-crunchy-granola, where are my rope sandals?"

Happier and without having to wear super hideous footwear as a protest :-)

I'm kind of assuming book fans just feel better overall, do you think?

Triskan · June 28, 2016

Well, the ranting topics at Westeros.org are always hilarious to read (or infuriating, but better have some distance on that front !), but in the end, for me, it was a damn amazing season !

Sure, I have my complaints here or there, but all in all, it was really well built, exploiting the well-established character dynamics to the fullest, visually stunning and damn entertaining !

Shanna Marie · June 28, 2016

I was actually kind of worried at the end of last season because I'd been pretty sure from reading the books that Jon would be revived somehow, and then there were all the interviews at the end of the season saying quite firmly that Jon was really dead, dead for good, left the show, they gave Kit a farewell party, etc., etc., and I started getting truly upset. Now that Jon's back, I can relax a bit because I seriously doubt that this is going to be different from the books. It's so major that I can't imagine Jon living onscreen and staying dead in the books. In a way, it's nice being spoiled a bit by the series because I can relax about the major things. There are characters with different outcomes, but I'm betting that the major plot stuff with the core characters isn't going to differ on dead vs. alive. I'm a little less certain on the fate of Jaime and Brienne, since their plots veered so much from the books that their continued ability to draw breath means very little, and neither did anything truly substantial this season that seemed to seriously affect any plots that still parallel the books. Most of Jaime's stuff was reaching back into the books rather than ahead, and Brienne's not even in the same universe. So they could both still be toast in the books. We're up to, what, a decade or so on that cliffhanger, if you read the books when they were published? I'm so very glad that I didn't read my pre-publication copy of the first book when I first got it. Then I'd have been waiting even longer to have the story resolved.

Gertrude · June 29, 2016

9 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

I'm kind of assuming book fans just feel better overall, do you think?

I think that depends on a few things :p.

Of course there are the book purists, a large contingent (as noted) of whom are at Westeros.org. Not that I blame them, that is a book site first and foremost. You should expect that there will be a large contingent of unsatisfied people there. I was never a book purist, but I guess I am a book snob. While I sympathize with some of the complaints, I don't get bogged down in every detail. If you did, there is no way you could enjoy the show.

There are also book readers who just want to know what happens at this point. They are tired of waiting and salty towards George. Again, I can't blame them, but I am more interested in the journey, not the bullet point plot points. I will wait for the books and would have preferred to read the story rather than see it on screen first, but this is how it's playing out, so I will accept it. These people are probably enjoying the crap out of the show because the show focus more on hitting the big moments rather than lingering on the journey.

I'm in the middle of both. I am impatient for the story. I flirted with waiting for the books, but decided that it's too big to avoid and I'd rather see it than hear about it and get spoiled third hand rather than just second hand, I really, really love the show at some times, and am really frustrated with it at some points. It's not even about what they decide to show, it's the way they show it. I followed LOST in the day and the thing that drove me nuts was not the story they told, but how they told it. The writing was sloppy and they introduced things - knowing it would never pay off - just because it was cool. It wasn't fun for me when this became clear to me, it just felt insulting. They were attempting to distract me with jingly keys when I started asking 'but why ...'. I feel the Show is doing a lot of that too, but damn, when they jingle the shiny keys at me, they are reeeaaalllly shiny!

So sometimes book knowledge consoles me when I can spackle over events or character moments that don't ring quite true, or are eliminated because of the differences in medium. OK, fine, I get it. The show has limited time/resources/structure. Other times it frustrates me to no end because I don't see why something was changed and it nearly ruins things for me, leaving a very sour taste in my mouth. Dorne being the most obvious example, but not the only one by far. I think book knowledge makes it more obvious when plot holes or insufficient character motivation happens. I might just gloss over it if I didn't have a pocket guide to refer to.

So I don't know if book readers generally feel better about the show or not. We have expectations and pet theories that get confirmed or broken. A lot of crackpot stuff took heavy hits this year. If you were a book fan and really invested in the High Sparrow being Howland Reed, you're probably not super hyped about the finale. (but not giving up hope because show =/= book, obviously) Most people are over the moon about the R+L=J reveal, but not everyone. It's always a mixed bag. My love for and my expectations of the Jaime character have made me more frustrated with the show than happy concerning his story. It took me a long time to turn around on Cersei. I actually prefer her show character now and just wish it wasn't at the expense of others around her (*ahem* Jaime). I can't even speak for myself. Would I feel better or worse about the show if I had never read the books? Absolutely zero clue.

WindyNights · June 29, 2016

I'm cool with it.

I dont think I felt very spoiled this season besides the last episode.

Maybe because I was already 100% sure that many of the things that happened this season would happen like Daenerys gathering the Dothraki, Jon being revived and R + L = J and that he would become King in the North. GRRM's been setting that up since book one.

The only o felt truly spoiled on was that Hodor scene.

mac123x · July 1, 2016

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 10:00 AM, stillshimpy said:

I'm kind of assuming book fans just feel better overall, do you think?

I liked a lot of this season, certainly better than last season, mainly because it feels like they're moving towards a conclusion of some sort. Danaerys's fleet finally headed west after all these years of wheel spinning was enough on its own to move this into a positive, especially considering some rumor mongering about Book 6 has Dany's Dothraki Sea, Revisited saga going on for a substantial part of the book. Arya returning to Westeros also was the cherry on top. It left me with hope that next season there won't be any more "stuck in a detatched plotline" stories any more.

One minor irritation was the repurposing "cool and/or shocking events" from the books, but making them nonsensical. For example, a friend who hasn't read the books asked my why the little kids killed Pycelle. I had to explain how that went down in the books, and it made me think that D&D included that just as pandering to the book fans. It really wasn't necessary -- if Pycelle needed to die, just have him killed in the Sept explosion. Same thing with Arya serving the Frey pies.

On the plus side, they've about exhausted written material, so I don't expect to see any more of those "something in the book that doesn't make much sense how we used it in the show" scenes.

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 10:00 AM, stillshimpy said:

Spent part of yesterday looking up ways that the whole "girl with purple snakes in her hair will kill the ice giant" thing is interpreted. I'd never associated it with Littlefinger before, so that was interesting.

That particular vision from the Ghost of High Heart always reminded me of "The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch" from Good Omens. Her prophecies are always 100% true, but since she was a 17th century witch, she lacked context to understand a lot of what she saw, e.g., "Don't buye Betamacks". I thought GoHH's vision of a maiden slaying a giant in a castle made of snow was fulfilled when Sansa tore Robin's rag doll, and had no other significance.

Chris24601 · July 3, 2016

On 6/28/2016 at 11:00 AM, stillshimpy said:

You know, I was actually just thinking about what a difference a season makes. I'm not sure if it is knowing that so much of the stuff that upset the living hell out of me last season, wasn't in the books, or if is knowing there is simply more to the tale and that helps balance it out.

I think this is something that can't be overlooked. In traditional storytelling there is always a nadir point for the heroes... that moment where all is lost and it looks hopeless. Usually that's right around two-thirds of the way through the story before the twist that gives the heroes one last shot comes into play and they pull out a win in the last third.

Structurally, for a story that's about 73 episodes long that would put the nadir point right around episodes 49-50... i.e. episodes 509 (the burning of Shireen) and 510 (Stannis dying, Dany captured by Dothraki, Arya blinded, Sansa jumping to her 'death' with Theon, Jon stabbed to death).

The soul-crushing problem was that this was the end of season with nearly a year until the resolution. But now that we HAVE that resolution and see where it all leads season five becomes much more bearable (in general, I'm still in no hurry to rewatch poor Shireen's end)... particularly since things are looking up for everyone who'd been at their nadir last season... Dany is en route to Westeros, Arya is back in Westeros seeking vengeance against those who wronged her family, Jon becomes King in the North with Sansa at his side.

Sure, there are dark days ahead... Queen Cersei is basically holding King's Landing hostage, Euron's building his own fleet (and still has the bulk of the Ironborn ships), Littlefinger will be up to no good and there's the Army of the Dead just waiting for the Wall to come down... but there's HOPE now that these things can be overcome.

More than even Jon's resurrection, I think in the full view of the entire series the turning point where hope came back is going to be 504 and the first honest-to-God Stark reunion since the series began. I might even have a tinge of pity for the Night King when Bran and Arya make it back to Winterfell because once that happens any bad guys left standing are well and truly ******! Nothing defeats the power of narrative and the Starks reunited and restored at Winterfell simply does not allow for a "and then they all died" ending to that narrative.

stillshimpy · July 4, 2016

Okay, so some season six material ahoy. Don't look under the bars unless you want to know, that sort of thing.

Episode 9 in season six

whereas episode 9 attempted the usual "oh shit!" type of material with the crap about lobbing out Shaggy's head -- a moment of dramatic excess that existed just to fuck with the audience and get us het up, which is also sort of a cheap shot in storytelling -- and then making Rickon participate in the worst fucking game of Red Rover ever, it just didn't have the same amount of horror to it that Shireen's death did. Rickon barely ever registered as a character and the young actor is now taller than the guy who plays Ramsay, so whereas Rickon is a child, it wasn't as tortuous a death, we barely knew Rickon as a character and then visually he read as a teenager.

More on that

and it wasn't just that, it's that the show didn't lay the same groundwork on that one. Ramsay was so awful that it was sort of obvious he'd kill Rickon. We never actually got to understand the reason that the Umbers betrayed Rickon and marched him to his actual death without any kind of qualm. So on top of everything else, the damned North once again looked like it was populated by such jackasses as a whole that 90k people join the Facebook Group Team Let the Whitewalkers have the lot of you. Fuckers. Then there's still more on that same sort of subject. It was a perilous episode, it tried its damnedest to bring on the misery and pain, but mostly it was just an incredible battle scene and the losses were relatively minor, the other dastardly dude in the form of Umber was a baddie with almost no development other than to enter stage right, betray his loyalties and sacrifice a child. So there was a sense of "Oh good, that fucktard's dead. Whee." but that was about it from the "this year, in the child murder annals of GoT".

Then in the season finale

not only is there forward motion in the tale and much less dreary hopelessness and grief , but the things they attempted also were a tiny bit hollow in terms of "holy shit". Davos finally gets around to confronting Mel, but they left it for so long and took such a giant pass on having Davos experience anything other than rage -- dude should have also been fucking racked by guilt and self-recrimination for a) not asking for specifics prior to that b) leaving Shireen there in the first place c) having to confront the not exactly above board stuff he has also done to try and land Stannis that throne. So they had the moment and then just took a hard pass on going for the emotionally devastating stuff. Instead Mel gets dismissed in a way that just lets you know we're not done with her yet.

Still more on the attempts in the finale

Tommen's death was -- and I'm genuinely not happy about having had this reaction, but nonetheless I did -- was unintentionally funny to me. Partially because I'd already been noting a lack of earned emotional developments in the story, so I laughed out loud when -- completely sans exposition or dialogue -- Tommen, another underdeveloped character who was wildly uneven in the way he was presented, marched out of the room and then 180'd his way to his doom, complete with a Foley artist effect that sounded like someone from the River Dance editing team was on the job. When you haven't emotionally developed anything let the tap shoes do the talking, I guess.

So there's a difference in the emotional tone also. A lot of what went down had a darkly comedic ring to it, due to a lack of emotional investment from the show. They did stuff to do it and have it done, but they didn't lay the groundwork in the same way.

Case in point

Ramsay's death and the manner of it had been telegraphed pretty hard, but it also had an inherent problem: Nothing was ever going to be bad enough for the guy. It was just an "oh thank god he's gone" and it's sort of the same deal with Walder Frey's end. Yay, Arya killed the guy at long last. That was both satisfying and overdue also.

So I do agree with you that the tale has regained narrative momentum, in part because it is no longer stalling to try and let Martin catch up to them. One of the coolest things about reading the books was discovering that the author does have a sense of humor, something the show seldom reflects. So it was at least a little bit funny, for me at least, that several of the emotional developments just kind of read as darkly funny to me.

Edited July 4, 2016 by stillshimpy

WindyNights · July 6, 2016

I agree with Shimpy.

Although I want to note that the whole season consisted of major stalling especially the KL story so stuff could finally happen in the last episode.

I could feel Aegon's removal from the story at King's Landing.

OhOkayWhat · July 6, 2016

47 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Okay, so some season six material ahoy. Don't look under the bars unless you want to know, that sort of thing.

Episode 9 in season six

Reveal hidden contents

whereas episode 9 attempted the usual "oh shit!" type of material with the crap about lobbing out Shaggy's head -- a moment of dramatic excess that existed just to fuck with the audience and get us het up, which is also sort of a cheap shot in storytelling -- and then making Rickon participate in the worst fucking game of Red Rover ever, it just didn't have the same amount of horror to it that Shireen's death did. Rickon barely ever registered as a character and the young actor is now taller than the guy who plays Ramsay, so whereas Rickon is a child, it wasn't as tortuous a death, we barely knew Rickon as a character and then visually he read as a teenager.

More on that

Reveal hidden contents

and it wasn't just that, it's that the show didn't lay the same groundwork on that one. Ramsay was so awful that it was sort of obvious he'd kill Rickon. We never actually got to understand the reason that the Umbers betrayed Rickon and marched him to his actual death without any kind of qualm. So on top of everything else, the damned North once again looked like it was populated by such jackasses as a whole that 90k people join the Facebook Group Team Let the Whitewalkers have the lot of you. Fuckers. Then there's still more on that same sort of subject. It was a perilous episode, it tried its damnedest to bring on the misery and pain, but mostly it was just an incredible battle scene and the losses were relatively minor, the other dastardly dude in the form of Umber was a baddie with almost no development other than to enter stage right, betray his loyalties and sacrifice a child. So there was a sense of "Oh good, that fucktard's dead. Whee." but that was about it from the "this year, in the child murder annals of GoT".

Then in the season finale

Reveal hidden contents

not only is there forward motion in the tale and much less dreary hopelessness and grief , but the things they attempted also were a tiny bit hollow in terms of "holy shit". Davos finally gets around to confronting Mel, but they left it for so long and took such a giant pass on having Davos experience anything other than rage -- dude should have also been fucking racked by guilt and self-recrimination for a) not asking for specifics prior to that b) leaving Shireen there in the first place c) having to confront the not exactly above board stuff he has also done to try and land Stannis that throne. So they had the moment and then just took a hard pass on going for the emotionally devastating stuff. Instead Mel gets dismissed in a way that just lets you know we're not done with her yet.

Still more on the attempts in the finale

Reveal hidden contents

Tommen's death was -- and I'm genuinely not happy about having had this reaction, but nonetheless I did -- was unintentionally funny to me. Partially because I'd already been noting a lack of earned emotional developments in the story, so I laughed out loud when -- completely sans exposition or dialogue -- Tommen, another underdeveloped character who was wildly uneven in the way he was presented, marched out of the room and then 180'd his way to his doom, complete with a Foley artist effect that sounded like someone from the River Dance editing team was on the job. When you haven't emotionally developed anything let the tap shoes do the talking, I guess.

So there's a difference in the emotional tone also. A lot of what went down had a darkly comedic ring to it, due to a lack of emotional investment from the show. They did stuff to do it and have it done, but they didn't lay the groundwork in the same way.

Case in point

Reveal hidden contents

Ramsay's death and the manner of it had been telegraphed pretty hard, but it also had an inherent problem: Nothing was ever going to be bad enough for the guy. It was just an "oh thank god he's gone" and it's sort of the same deal with Walder Frey's end. Yay, Arya killed the guy at long last. That was both satisfying and overdue also.

So I do agree with you that the tale has regained narrative momentum, in part because it is no longer stalling to try and let Martin catch up to them. One of the coolest things about reading the books was discovering that the author does have a sense of humor, something the show seldom reflects. So it was at least a little bit funny, for me at least, that several of the emotional developments just kind of read as darkly funny to me.

Season 6 spoilers:

Spoiler

I wish the scene played different, and I think maybe there was a way to do that differently, but including Shaggy's head in that scene (episode 9) had a purpose. The purpose being included in the Sansa-Jon conversation the same night.

Lord Umber is a villain, and he made clear why he did what he did, of course, we do not agree with him, he did something terrible, but the narrative makes sense as makes sense any narrative about a villain. It was a horrible tragic mistake and very disgusting thing to do. A terrible crime. But even in the middle of the battle it is again clear why Lord Umber did that. His whole arc made him a villain in the eyes of the audience.

Ramsay and Frey demise goes beyond themselves: it gives us information about the mental state of Sansa and Arya. We must remember that even if they have few or a lot of minutes of screentime, they are secondary characters. Their purpose is to serve to develop main characters.

Davos behaves in a very human way: many times people "knows" that some awful stuff is possible very deep in their minds. And they do not want to ask and to confront the truth. They delay it the most they can, until it is inevitable to face the things. Davos did that.

stillshimpy · July 6, 2016

Aha. Essentially we agree on nothing.

Water is wet.

There, we likely agree on that.

OhOkayWhat · July 7, 2016

11 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Water is wet.

Well, now that I think about that..........LOL, kidding!

Maybe we do not agree sometimes, but I find that reading your comments is great, they gave me lots of interesting stuff to think and that is awesome.

stillshimpy · July 7, 2016

Well, now that I think about that..........LOL, kidding!

I swear to Strangers, Mothers and Smiths, I figured you'd say, "Not if it is frozen, like ice! Or evaporated via any kind of dispersal, like a humidifier!"

I have a lot of fun reading everyone's comments too, OhOkayWhat, disagreement is often fun.

Avaleigh · July 7, 2016

S6

I felt like I understood Lord Umber's motivations, I just didn't agree with him. Consider what the guy told Ramsay about his own father. The Greatjon and the Smalljon clearly weren't on the same page and the Smalljon full on calls his father a cunt and essentially equates him with that other "cunt" Roose Bolton. Supporting the Starks brought them grief and frustration, and Ramsay is the only one who shares his feelings on the danger of the wildlings. The Umbers have only had negative encounters with wildlings so it isn't surprising or hard for me to believe that this was Umber's primary motive in supporting House Bolton.

As for Shaggydog's head that made sense to me because it forced Sansa to have to acknowledge the truth that Rickon's fate was basically sealed. It served as a sharp reminder of what kind of guy they were dealing with and that made sense to me.

As for Tommen's death, I was really disappointed that the show didn't seize the perfect opportunity to have a scene that sort of mirrors the scene between Jaime and Myrcella right before she dies. In that case we had Myrcella and Jaime truly bond over the truth and then Myrcella is cruelly taken just as they're being honest and having a sweet moment. With Cersei amd Tommen, I would have liked for it to have gone something like this:

Have Cersei confront Tommen with the truth about who his father really is but have Tommen not know the way thay Myrcella instinctively knew. Since he's now emotionally converted to the Faith, have him feel overwhelmed with disgust by his status as an abomination and have Cersei watch as he jumps to his death. Have her see for herself that her words and actions were what pushed her son over the edge. To me that would have been a lot more satisfyimg narratively and emotionally.

As for Davos, his delay made sense to me. It's similar to why he left Shireen in the first place even though he didn't feel right about it and had a sense that something bad would happen. Plus, to be fair to him, honest Brienne confirmed Melisandre's story so Davos was dealing with the fresh pain of knowing that she was dead. I can see him wanting to put off the pain of knowing further details when the implication was that the asshole Boltons were responsible for her death. There wasn't anything he could do about it, he was already working to avenge her and her family by teaming up with Jon and co. and I can see him initially not wanting to torture himself with grisly details so that he can play it in his head over and over. I thought I felt his pain and think that we'll get into his feelings of guilt next season.

As for Melisandre, I want her to die a painful death but am glad thay we aren't done with her yet because she clearly knows a few things and I'm hoping we get some info on Asshai and the White Walkers from her. I'll be interested too to see if she ever hooks up with Dany.

stillshimpy · July 7, 2016

Okay, so here we go: Umber

Yes, I'm aware that the show had him spout an almost primarily senseless motivation. And here's why it is primarily senseless in my estimation, and particularly so for anyone who hasn't read the books: No matter what the Starks did or didn't do. No matter having bad encounters with Wildlings and have an extreme hatred of them: The Boltons are not trustworthy. <---This is the reason it needs more development. Ramsay has killed his father, just recently, once again proving that they are dishonest and untrustworthy to an extreme degree that makes trying to curry favor with them, or side with them, nothing short of baffling. Now that's partially the show's fault because they turned Ramsay into someone so unrealistically awful, no one would try to join his team.

It isn't just that though because in the books part of what Bolton did was drop flaming tents on the men that were his allies. Who believed they were his allies. <--- again, rather important in the "Huh, you're going out of your way to get in good with the Bolton's , but now that Pa Bolton has been a victim of Patricide, you want to climb into a tent with Ramsay? They must grow AMAZING weed in the North, man. Brain shortcircuiting weed.

Umber not caring about the Starks makes some sense, given what happened with Karstark and Robb. However, what doesn't add up is the "therefore, I will go and try to make friendless with this entirely untrustworthy psychopath" that's a daft plan.

On trolling the audience, yes, two closeup scenes of Shaggy's head is trolling the audience. It's something done to upset people and elicit the desire emotional response that is not necessary to the story. Sansa, who has believed all along that Rickon was with Ramsay and even used that as motivation with Jon, didn't need to see Shaggy's head to confirm Rickon's likely fate, or to believe that Ramsay had him. They have Rickon who is presumably not illiterate and again so maybe ask for proof before you ride across the entire North, for starters, mustering forces as you go. Sansa believed that Ramsay had him. They toss out the head solely to elicit an emotional response from the audience even if it doesn't actually fit that moment. Out of nowhere, Sansa asks something, despite having multiple lines about Ramsay having Rickon as her animating force. When a head can be lobbed, she asks for proof of something she has previously believed to be ture. That's what trolling the audience is and in this case, they are more than aware that the audience has not reacted well to the use of the Direwolves and they've done it before with showing Greywind's head attached to Robb's body.

But mostly Umber's very thin characterization on the show contains reasoning that only gets you half way to anything. "Fuck the Starks" okay, harsh, but there's been material in the show that would support that. Show up with all your men and a gift to try and curry favor with the Lord of Peeling and Flaming Tents? That's demonstrably not possible as the bastard has just killed his father, the man who legitimized him. Also? Senseless, because "Robb Stark didn't show enough loyalty to Karstark and killed him." is sort of belied by "Admittedly, you and your father have done incredibly duplicitous things to people who believed you were loyal to them....and you, Sir Peelsalot...have just murdered your brother, father, and stepmother, respecting no loyalties, oaths or any other rule that would lead me to think that I could trust you in an alliance. I wanna join up!" is not believable. When it first happened, I assumed there was going to be something more. Umber was either tricking Ramsay and loyal to the Starks, or Umber was tricking Ramsay and intended to take that dangerous, volatile, psychopath, prone-to-peeling-people fucker out." Instead of having Umber: Wants to Kill Jon. If they wanted to sell Umbers backstabbing of the Starks, it would have been better to have him fail at killing Ramsay and die trying. Trying to join Ramsay is not something that logically computes with what we have been shown of him.

So

having tried to sell this set of circumstances, they underdeveloped anything having to do with Umber and he's a Cardboard Kevin, Sinister Division: Nothing much to make him a believable person. A speaking prop, there to sell a plot development, and that's all. It's a characterization so thin, it could pass as an Xray. I watch every week with one of the few truly Unsullied people around, my husband, who reads Market Watch when online and is never going to catch spoilers there and he asked me to explain what the hell was going on with Umber specifically because "who would trust that guy?". Umber only makes sense as a character if he's there to kill Ramsay himself, or to seize power, because Ramsay is not trustworthy as an ally. He's not fucking trustworthy as a blood relative. Ramsay isn't running some highly persuasive cult, he's overpowering and killing where he can. The dude who stayed the hell home made sense as a character. "I opt out of this bullshit" makes sense. "I go to the psycho, with something that he wants and needs right now" makes sense if there's more going on. "I go to the psycho with something that he wants, to secure an actual alliance with him....despite everything I know about him....because I'm just that pissed at the Starks" does not. Why? Easier ways to get that job done.

Like kill Rickon and Osha himself, dispatch Direwolves with impunity. If Jon and Sansa show up wanting to ask him to join the cause? Wow, pretty easy to kill them, if he's so inclined, or if he's feeling super honorable, simply tell them to go get fucked. But trying to join forces with Ramsay doesn't make sense when he has to go out of his way to do it given everything we know about Ramsay. Even "I hate Wildlings and Snow has Wildlings. Grrrr. We must join together to protect us all" would make sense...if it was anyone other than Ramsay "I kill my allies and actual family members....Trust me!" Bolton. Because of the development they have given Ramsay and the Boltons that becomes unbelievable as a reason.

I personally found it so lacking in anything resembling sense that I was convinced there had to be more to it. Umber ambles in and presents his character motivations in an exposition dump and....oh....okay, that's all there was to it? That's not a characterization that has anything behind it. Now normally does it matter if a characterization is that thin for a supporting player? Nope. It does not. Unless his actions are the plot catalyst for absolutely everything else that happens with the Northern story. Then it matters to me.

Avaleigh · July 7, 2016

I think the key area where we disagree is over the idea that Umber somehow actually trusted Ramsay. I never got the impression that he trusted him at all and thought he was simply teaming up with the person who is likely to fight the wildlings whether or not he has the support of the Umbers. His contempt for Ramsay was clear and in no way do I think he wasn't sleeping with one eye open so to speak. He knew perfectly well what Ramsay was and I think he thought he could hold his own against the little shit if it ever came down to it. His refusal to bow down also suggests to me that he didn't see it as a long term alliance.

Haleth · July 8, 2016

On 6/28/2016 at 11:00 AM, stillshimpy said:

I'm kind of assuming book fans just feel better overall, do you think?

I'm pretty happy with the way the season went, particularly in the last couple of episodes. It felt as if the show was expediting some of Martin's inevitable leisurely stroll to the end by slashing storylines. For example

Spoiler

it's highly unlikely 9yo Tommen will kill himself in the book if Margaery dies, but we know that somehow he will end up dead so the show just cut out a big ol' chunk of wasted time. Having everyone (including Loras) blown up at the same time probably gets us to the same place eventually in the book, but at a quicker pace. Same thing with replacing Victarion with Yara and getting her to Dany. I hate what the show did to Dorne, how Manderly was underused, and how it eliminated the Aegon storyline, but I do appreciate that cutting plots finally got us some forward movement.

Spoiler

I'd been spoiled by the start of the season that Rickon would die and it broke my heart. I wasn't sure I'd even watch since it made me so angry. Yet when it came to be I wasn't so emotional about it. It made sense for the story and then I got caught up in the battle scene and the good guys' victory and forgot about little Rickon. Sorry, kid, you were a plot device in the way of the hero being named King of the North.

So all in all, season 6 was much better than 5. It gives me hope that the overall story will wrap up after a couple more seasons in a way that Martin more or less intends (but will never get to himself). Suck it, George.

On 6/28/2016 at 8:49 PM, Gertrude said:

the High Sparrow being Howland Reed

Is that really a thing?

On 7/1/2016 at 3:54 PM, mac123x said:

One minor irritation was the repurposing "cool and/or shocking events" from the books, but making them nonsensical. For example, a friend who hasn't read the books asked my why the little kids killed Pycelle. I had to explain how that went down in the books, and it made me think that D&D included that just as pandering to the book fans. It really wasn't necessary -- if Pycelle needed to die, just have him killed in the Sept explosion. Same thing with Arya serving the Frey pies.

I so agree! But I'm also glad they left these things in. ;)

mac123x · July 8, 2016

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

Is that [HS =HR] really a thing?

It's one of the multitude of crackpot theories. Alt-Shift-X has a short video on YouTube explaining it. The idea is that Howland Reed is posing as the High Sparrow in order to undermine the current regime as revenge for Ned, and in order to be in a position of power to reveal his knowledge of Jon's birth.

The evidence supporting it is pretty scant, and basically relies on the fact that they've each been described similarly: short, brown hair.

The evidence against it is more convincing (IMHO): Howland Reed is a northerner, so he worships the Old Gods. HS spent years as an itinerant septon, roaming the countryside before coming to Kings Landing. There really isn't enough time for Reed to have lived the life the HS lived unless he started this deception before the events of the first book.

Hecate7 · July 9, 2016

On 7/4/2015 at 2:53 PM, Protar said:

Well that instance is I think actually part of Cat's character. She's a character with quite a bit of internalised misogyny and there are a few occasions where she very notably judges other women based on their appearances (and the fertility implied by their appearance).

It's not that odd for a woman to take note of what other women look like, and in a setting where women are judged by their appearance and compete on that level, changes to her sister's figure, apparent age, etc...are things Cat would notice immediately. The two sisters were compared to each other from the time they were old enough to socialize, and so Cat would continue to note the comparisons. I actually found Cat's observations about Lyssa's figure, and Jeyne's, very convincing, as I've heard women say very similar things IRL.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Hecate7

Independent George · July 12, 2016

One hundred and twelve pages. I just finished reading every single post in One Hundred And Twelve fookin' pages, and loved every minute of it!

Hi, some of you bookwalkers might remember me from the Unsullied-watcher threads on Westeros, or the bookwalker threads here and from TWOP. (I also was a semi-regular on the BSG discussions there, but I doubt I left much impression). This is the first time I've looked up the show discussions in over a year, and was shocked and thrilled to discover Shimpy's watch had ended. I stopped participating for largely the same reasons she gave up on the show - S5 was such a trainwreck and I soon realized I was only watching out of obligation rather than enjoyment.

I remember having such high hopes that S5 would actually improve on the books by supplying the much-needed editing job for FFC/DWD; instead, they managed to make it even worse. That was... demoralizing, to say the least. It's weird clicking on my profile and looking up my old comments; I wonder what it means that my very last GOT post was an Arrested Development joke.

Anyway, I've been a huge fan of the Unsullied thread since S2, and loved hearing your unfiltered opinions. I loved your fan nicknames (I still chortle at "Zombonies on Zomponies" and "Milk of the Puppy"), and your analysis was always spot on even when it veered off into crazy tangents. I absolutely loved reading your comments as you made your way through the books.

Anyway, I'll have more to add to the discussion in a bit, but I'm actually quite exhausted from spending the last five days reading through this entire thread. I just wanted to say "Thank You" to Shimpy taking the time to write all these years. You were always entertaining and informative, and I'm glad I can finally talk with you freely. Actually, since I never read the Dunk & Egg stories, you're now better informed than I am. Cheers!

Independent George · July 13, 2016

I really wish I had participated here from the beginning, because a lot of the things I want to talk about now are things you've all discussed to death ages ago. So please forgive me my ramblings, I've got a lot to get off my chest (partly because I can no longer access the Westeros.org forums on my mobile, so this is my last outlet).

Anyway, first of all, the thing that really struck me most about the bookwalker invasions is just how incompetent they were. Maybe it's just because Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is one of my favorite books ever (a significant portion of the story is about an Allied counter-intelligence operation in WW2), but it really shouldn't have been that hard to fool an Unsullied. The most basic precaution should have been to only mention stuff that was actually on the show. How hard is it to keep the dang show on your DVR and verify that what you want to discuss was actually included on the show?

If I wanted to pass as an Unsullied, my first order of business would have been to establish credibility by purposely advocating a completely incorrect speculation early in the game which I was certain had to be revealed soon enough (for example: "I think Drogo is going to kill Jorah", or "I think Littlefinger is going to kill Varys and help Ned escape"). I'd consistently and repeatedly (but politely) argue that point, just to establish it in your memory. Finally, at some point, I'd voluntarily drop out of the discussion on occasion with a declaration of, "I'm sorry, guys, but I think I just got spoiled on something while in the office; I overheard something that I can't unhear, and I don't want to accidentally do the same to you. I'm going to have to lie low for a while until it happens, or proves incorrect". I'd have stayed away for two weeks, then come back after Ned's death with a "I can't believe those jerks spoiled me on that. When Ned confessed, I was sure they were wrong, but then it happened, and my reaction was ruined because I was angrier at the people who spoiled it than I was at Joffrey."

This would have served quadruple-duty by: (1) establishing that I was spoiled on such a large point, thereby implying that I am unspoiled on everything else, (2) establishing that I was trustworthy and honorable enough to come clean about being spoiled, and voluntarily quitting the discussion to protect you, (3) gaining your sympathy over being spoiled about such a large plot point, thereby ingratiating myself inside your circle of trust, and (4) protecting myself in the future in case I messed up and introduced something not on the show.

I guess this goes to the motivations of the bookwalkers. By and large, they seemed to fall into two camps: (1) people who wanted to seem really smart and perceptive by proving to you how much they could predict, and (2) people who wanted to shape you into having the same opinions they did about the characters/story. The first just seems really sad; I can't ever see myself trying something like that. I have to admit the second would have been rather tempting; fandom is all about being passionate about a particular work, and I completely get the impulse to try and bring people around to your point of view. As a Stannis fan, it was particularly frustrating to see your reactions to the obviously evil show version, but I completely understood it.

I think what stopped me was the fact that I was as much a fan of the Unsullied thread as I was of the books; it would have meant destroying something I had grown to love.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Independent George

Haleth · July 21, 2016

I'm really sorry we won't have a diversion like this to keep us talking until the new season starts. I'm already bored with the season 7 speculation threads.

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