Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[ImpinAintEasy]

Yeah it always annoys me when people hate people who like the books, just because I'm like THEY'RE SO MUCH BETTER YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND #NOONEUNDERSTAAANDS

LOL, I had a feeling you may have been AngryGOTFan. I used to enjoy reading your posts when I thought they were in good fun. Somewhere in season 4 I think the sarcasm was lost. Or was it never sarcasm? Anyway, one of my favorite lines was "Aemon grew up in Summerhall, not Kings Landing! NOONEUNDERSTAAANDS!!!"  

[Avaleigh]

Theon's chapters are beautifully written and incredibly atmospheric, really goosebumps-inducing (the only other point where I get those is with

dead things in the woods, dead things in the water

, like, I'm typing and my skin's already crawling XD)

 

Oh man,

dead things in the water

did it for me fear wise. I was like, 'Yikes, this shit is serious!"

[Ashara Payne]

I love OzzieManReviews on YouTube, amongst others. His are succinct and funny. Many others are interesting and insightful and great for bedtime when you're too tired to read.

[WindyNights]

Agreed about the Meereenese blot essays. I've heard George has expressed a positive opinion about them as well, although that could be rumour or speculation, I've not seen evidence.

As for The Princess and the Queen, I know it was published after The Rogue Prince, but wouldn't it be preferable to read it after? I've only listened to the audiobooks (on YouTube), but The Princess and the Queen is complicated enough to follow even without the prior knowledge of The Rogue Prince. This may just be my bias, having falling asleep listening to it over a dozen times before I finally finished it!

I'd definitely recommend those two before exploring online blogs/discussions. And of course, there's TWOIAF, too, although many people won't buy that on the principle of not lining Lindaaa's pockets. Surely the artists get a cut, though? Or would they have been paid a flat fee?

Yeo, In a Q+A, GRRM said Adam Feldman, the writer of those essays,  got it right.

 

Now he didn't say what he got right. It's either the whole thing or this in particular:

 

So, what was the point of Dany’s sojourn in Meereen? Many just dismiss it as wholly filler, without any real purpose at all except to pad out the books. Others think that Dany as a character “regressed,” returning to a state of incompetence, naivete, and passivity. Others think the point was about giving Dany “practice” ruling, so she could make mistakes, and eventually become a better ruler when she reaches Westeros.

Here’s why all these interpretations miss the point: “The human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about.” –George R. R. Martin

Martin has paraphrased this quote from William Faulkner time and time again in interviews, yet many readers haven’t fully internalized it. It means Martin is not interested in merely showing characters “leveling up,” like a video game, progressing from incompetent naif to awesome badass. His main interest is in exploring his characters’ values. And throughout the series, he creates drama by forcing characters to choose between their core values — love vs. duty, honor vs. pragmatism, vows vs. innocent life.

With that in mind, a closer look reveals that Dany’s plotline in Meereen has been very cleverly designed as a series of tests of her values, and one value in particular. Each test is designed to ask — how far will Dany go to make peace and protect innocent life? With nearly every new chapter, Dany is asked to give up something else she wants or desires, for the good of the Meereenese people. The use of her dragons. A share of power in Meereen. Some of her anti-slavery reforms. Her desire for vengeance. Her desire to right every wrong she sees. Her distaste for cultural practices she finds abhorrent. Her sexual autonomy. Her happiness. Her pride. Her chance at Westeros.

Dany’s arc is revealed in how she responds to these tests, and how she tries to balance her moral ideals against her own darker impulses and desires. Part of Dany genuinely does want peace, and wants to sacrifice a great deal to protect innocent life. But another part of her would rather she take what she wants, through fire and blood.

The main drama of the Meereen plotline lies in Dany’s mind and in her choices. On the surface she is struggling with the Meereenese — but her most crucial struggle is with herself. And the outcome of this struggle will have momentous consequences for Westeros.

[bobbybuilderton]

Lol I am not angrygotfan. I just realized what it sounded like when I wrote that. But really, aren't we all angry game of thrones fans?

Edited December 13, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Delta1212]

I'm not particularly angry.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Jon's and Theon's POV chapters are my favorite in ADWD too. In Theon's case, it took me totally by surprise. I love how he first appears in the book. Unfortunately, since Shimpy has watched the show, she won't be able to experience Theon's reappearance in the books the same way.

I honestly didn't know which character's POV I was reading for several pages.

 

[feverfew]

Yeo, In a Q+A, GRRM said Adam Feldman, the writer of those essays,  got it right.

 

Now he didn't say what he got right. It's either the whole thing or this in particular:

 

So, what was the point of Dany’s sojourn in Meereen? Many just dismiss it as wholly filler, without any real purpose at all except to pad out the books. Others think that Dany as a character “regressed,” returning to a state of incompetence, naivete, and passivity. Others think the point was about giving Dany “practice” ruling, so she could make mistakes, and eventually become a better ruler when she reaches Westeros.

Here’s why all these interpretations miss the point: “The human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about.” –George R. R. Martin

Martin has paraphrased this quote from William Faulkner time and time again in interviews, yet many readers haven’t fully internalized it. It means Martin is not interested in merely showing characters “leveling up,” like a video game, progressing from incompetent naif to awesome badass. His main interest is in exploring his characters’ values. And throughout the series, he creates drama by forcing characters to choose between their core values — love vs. duty, honor vs. pragmatism, vows vs. innocent life.

With that in mind, a closer look reveals that Dany’s plotline in Meereen has been very cleverly designed as a series of tests of her values, and one value in particular. Each test is designed to ask — how far will Dany go to make peace and protect innocent life? With nearly every new chapter, Dany is asked to give up something else she wants or desires, for the good of the Meereenese people. The use of her dragons. A share of power in Meereen. Some of her anti-slavery reforms. Her desire for vengeance. Her desire to right every wrong she sees. Her distaste for cultural practices she finds abhorrent. Her sexual autonomy. Her happiness. Her pride. Her chance at Westeros.

Dany’s arc is revealed in how she responds to these tests, and how she tries to balance her moral ideals against her own darker impulses and desires. Part of Dany genuinely does want peace, and wants to sacrifice a great deal to protect innocent life. But another part of her would rather she take what she wants, through fire and blood.

The main drama of the Meereen plotline lies in Dany’s mind and in her choices. On the surface she is struggling with the Meereenese — but her most crucial struggle is with herself. And the outcome of this struggle will have momentous consequences for Westeros.

See, I love this interepretation of Dany's arc in Dance - the only problem is that, for me, it's all conjuring and massively reading between the lines. Because, what I read, was nothing like a Faulkneresque rumination on the human heart; rather it was, at times, more like petty philosophy mixed with a petty teenager. Dany doesn't want to deal with boring stuff like day-to-day-rule; she'd much rather play hide the sausage with Daario. Which is understandable in a teenage girl, but doesn't make any profound statement on statescraft.

 

It's no secret that Dany's far from my favourite character, and Dance magnified all of her character flaws - or rather, Martin's tendency to pontificate on stuff I find fairly basic. I also don't find his tendency to wander around in his own narrative either endearing or profound. Just because you can use 10.000 words to describe a scene, doesn't mean it's better than using a 100. I understood it when it was Dickens (paid per page) but Martin is no Dickens, and it reads like self indulgence. To me, of course. I understand not all people like the same stuff as I do.

 

Lol I am not angrygotfan. I just realized what it sounded like when I wrote that. But really, aren't we all angry game of thrones fans?

I'm happy you're not. His brand of sarcasm has veered into disturbing territory for me. But as Delta1212 said, I'm not particulary angry either. I guess I lost a lot of reverence for ASoIaF after Dance especially, and GOT is just a tv-show for me. I like the show, I like the books, but I have no deep, emotional attachment to either. Weirdly enough I enjoy the discussions on both more at the moment...

Edited December 14, 2015 by feverfew

[WindyNights]

See, I love this interepretation of Dany's arc in Dance - the only problem is that, for me, it's all conjuring and massively reading between the lines. Because, what I read, was nothing like a Faulkneresque rumination on the human heart; rather it was, at times, more like petty philosophy mixed with a petty teenager. Dany doesn't want to deal with boring stuff like day-to-day-rule; she'd much rather play hide the sausage with Daario. Which is understandable in a teenage girl, but doesn't make any profound statement on statescraft.

 

It's no secret that Dany's far from my favourite character, and Dance magnified all of her character flaws - or rather, Martin's tendency to pontificate on stuff I find fairly basic. I also don't find his tendency to wander around in his own narrative either endearing or profound. Just because you can use 10.000 words to describe a scene, doesn't mean it's better than using a 100. I understood it when it was Dickens (paid per page) but Martin is no Dickens, and it reads like self indulgence. To me, of course. I understand not all people like the same stuff as I do.

Meereen. The mere word probably makes you groan. It’s considered to be the weakest, most frustrating plotline in ADWD, and perhaps in in the whole series. It’s thought to be where GRRM lost the plot and spent endless chapters on pointless filler. The solutions seem so obvious, the villains seem obviously evil one-dimensional caricatures. And many fans see it as the plotline that ruined Dany’s character, revealing her to be a naive, incompetent, lovesick girl.I used to agree with all of those criticisms — but I’ve come to believe that they’re all actually quite wrong. In these essays I’ll debunk them. After a reread (or several), and much productive discussion on various forums, I now firmly believe that ADWD is the smartest, most complex, and most thought-provoking book in the series. It is very carefully constructed, yet quite subtle and therefore rewarding of rereads, close analysis, and an effort to engage. In particular, the Meereen plotline is quite ingeniously constructed by Martin to mislead fans in certain ways. Often, the truth there is the opposite of what it appears on the surface.

 

I’ll be delving deep into Dany’s decisions, her character development, Meereenese politics, the overall themes Martin intends with the Meereen plotline, and how it’s all setting up the future of the series. But I’ll start near the end of the book, with one neat little case study that doesn’t involve Dany at all, but shows there’s more than meets the eye in Meereen.

 

Here's the link to his first essays:

 https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-i-who-poisoned-the-locusts/

 

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-ii-the-peace-was-real/

 

 

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iii-danys-struggle-with-herself/

 

 https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/05/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iv-a-darker-daenerys/

 

 https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-v-hizdahr-and-peace-or-daario-and-war/

 

Parts 2,3,4 and 5 were the most interesting to me.

 

 

I think people read Daenerys' arc and only make a superficial analysis of what was going on there. Things only get into perspective when you see what GRRM was trying to do with Daenerys and some of the symbolism he was including.

 

For example,

what Daario represents.

He represents the same thing

Darkstar represents to Arianne that being the attractiveness of war.

 

 

I actually think Daenerys' and Jon's arc in ADWD are ingenious character studies by GRRM.

Edited December 14, 2015 by WindyNights

[Constantinople]

Yeo, In a Q+A, GRRM said Adam Feldman, the writer of those essays,  got it right.

 

Now he didn't say what he got right. It's either the whole thing or this in particular:

 

So, what was the point of Dany’s sojourn in Meereen? Many just dismiss it as wholly filler, without any real purpose at all except to pad out the books. Others think that Dany as a character “regressed,” returning to a state of incompetence, naivete, and passivity. Others think the point was about giving Dany “practice” ruling, so she could make mistakes, and eventually become a better ruler when she reaches Westeros.

Here’s why all these interpretations miss the point: “The human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about.” –George R. R. Martin

Martin has paraphrased this quote from William Faulkner time and time again in interviews, yet many readers haven’t fully internalized it. It means Martin is not interested in merely showing characters “leveling up,” like a video game, progressing from incompetent naif to awesome badass. His main interest is in exploring his characters’ values. And throughout the series, he creates drama by forcing characters to choose between their core values — love vs. duty, honor vs. pragmatism, vows vs. innocent life.

With that in mind, a closer look reveals that Dany’s plotline in Meereen has been very cleverly designed as a series of tests of her values, and one value in particular. Each test is designed to ask — how far will Dany go to make peace and protect innocent life? With nearly every new chapter, Dany is asked to give up something else she wants or desires, for the good of the Meereenese people. The use of her dragons. A share of power in Meereen. Some of her anti-slavery reforms. Her desire for vengeance. Her desire to right every wrong she sees. Her distaste for cultural practices she finds abhorrent. Her sexual autonomy. Her happiness. Her pride. Her chance at Westeros.

Dany’s arc is revealed in how she responds to these tests, and how she tries to balance her moral ideals against her own darker impulses and desires. Part of Dany genuinely does want peace, and wants to sacrifice a great deal to protect innocent life. But another part of her would rather she take what she wants, through fire and blood.

The main drama of the Meereen plotline lies in Dany’s mind and in her choices. On the surface she is struggling with the Meereenese — but her most crucial struggle is with herself. And the outcome of this struggle will have momentous consequences for Westeros.

 

 

See, I love this interepretation of Dany's arc in Dance - the only problem is that, for me, it's all conjuring and massively reading between the lines. Because, what I read, was nothing like a Faulkneresque rumination on the human heart; rather it was, at times, more like petty philosophy mixed with a petty teenager. Dany doesn't want to deal with boring stuff like day-to-day-rule; she'd much rather play hide the sausage with Daario. Which is understandable in a teenage girl, but doesn't make any profound statement on statescraft.

 

It's no secret that Dany's far from my favourite character, and Dance magnified all of her character flaws - or rather, Martin's tendency to pontificate on stuff I find fairly basic. I also don't find his tendency to wander around in his own narrative either endearing or profound. Just because you can use 10.000 words to describe a scene, doesn't mean it's better than using a 100. I understood it when it was Dickens (paid per page) but Martin is no Dickens, and it reads like self indulgence. To me, of course. I understand not all people like the same stuff as I do.

I agree about the length.

Oddly enough, A Dance with Dragons

Barristan's coup was the most interesting part of the Mereen storyline to me.

I suppose that's an indirect criticism of how GRRM handled Dany's storyline in Mereen.  It often seems as if she lurches from one crisis to another, in part because she makes one ad hoc decision after another with little thought for the future.  She may be learning, albeit slowly that politics requires compromise, even from her, and that you can't upend a culture that is thousands of years old.  But both ideas are, as you say, fairly basic and don't require that much elaboration.

I also haven't seen any growth in Daenerys about her alleged ultimate goal of sitting on the Iron Throne other than that's something that Targaryens do and she is the last Targaryen.

 

TV Season 5

Too bad that Barristan's coup will never happen given that he and Hizdahr are both dead and the Shavepate doesn't exist in the TV show.

[feverfew]

Edit: Spoiler tags is so not working for me right now.

Actually; quoting doesn't work me either. Sorry. This was a reply to WindyNights

 

I have actually read The Meereenes Blot. And while I find his musings/theories interesting from a fannish point of view, it does read like a first year student of Comparative Literature. It's fair; you think there's more substance to Dany's arc than I do, but I don't think it has anything to do with how "critically" I read Dance. I have no problems with reaching the some of the same conclusions you/Blot-guy did; I just don't think Martin went about it in any sort of genius way.

 

As for the comparison between 

Hizdahr and Daario

, I'll let another poster on The Meereenes Blot answer for me:

 

I’m not sure this dynamic is as subtle as you seem to imply. I found the Hizdahr-and-Daario-represents-the-two-paths-of-Dany to be obvious and overwrought. Again, a fine way to express the conflict within Dany but much too repetitive both within the arc itself and when taken with the other internal conflict storylines in the series. (JBP November 11, 2013 at 7:49 pm)

Edited December 14, 2015 by feverfew

[WindyNights]

 

 

I agree about the length.

Oddly enough, A Dance with Dragons

Barristan's coup was the most interesting part of the Mereen storyline to me.

I suppose that's an indirect criticism of how GRRM handled Dany's storyline in Mereen.  It often seems as if she lurches from one crisis to another, in part because she makes one ad hoc decision after another with little thought for the future.  She may be learning, albeit slowly that politics requires compromise, even from her, and that you can't upend a culture that is thousands of years old.  But both ideas are, as you say, fairly basic and don't require that much elaboration.

I also haven't seen any growth in Daenerys about her alleged ultimate goal of sitting on the Iron Throne other than that's something that Targaryens do and she is the last Targaryen.

 

TV Season 5

Too bad that Barristan's coup will never happen given that he and Hizdahr are both dead and the Shavepate doesn't exist in the TV show.

 

 

Wait, what? That's actually the entire opposite of what Daenerys learned.

 

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

 

She learned she's not going to

compromise for a peace. She's going to have it her way with  Fire and Blood if need be even if innocents die. That's what her entire last chapter on ADWD focuses on.  She even admits that Meereen isn't her home. Westeros is and that she should've gone to Westeros instead of stay and linger. And that Meereen is a bunch of freaks and strangers.

 

The stream will take me to the river, and the river will take me home.

Except it wouldn’t, not truly.

Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy’s city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.

Never, said the grass, in the gruff tones of Jorah Mormont. You were warned, Your Grace. Let this city be, I said. Your war is in Westeros, I told you.

 

Sometimes the lessons she learns might not be the lessons you or I agree with or expect. 

Edited December 14, 2015 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

 

As for the comparison between 

Hizdahr and Daario

, I'll let another poster on The Meereenes Blot answer for me:

 

I’m not sure this dynamic is as subtle as you seem to imply. I found the Hizdahr-and-Daario-represents-the-two-paths-of-Dany to be obvious and overwrought. Again, a fine way to express the conflict within Dany but much too repetitive both within the arc itself and when taken with the other internal conflict storylines in the series. (JBP November 11, 2013 at 7:49 pm)

Her whole arc

and identity resolved around it. Complaining about its repetition is like complaining about how ASOIAF deals too much with finding your identity. I think it's worth exploring with the character . Anyways, I think the fact that most readers missed it kinda tells me it was subtle to the point where I wonder if we had to have Daenery muse about Daario and War and Hizdahr and Peace.

 

I do maintain that using

Daario as a stand in for war was a good idea as we find him repelling just as we should find war.

Edited December 14, 2015 by WindyNights

[Seerow]

I must say, it was rather annoying reading Sam's (fairly tedious) chapters only for them to end just before this really juicy, interesting story starts.

 

This was how I felt about most of AFFC

and ADWD

.

[bobbybuilderton]

I just realized how much I look forward to shimpy

probably assuming satin takes the role of olly in the wall plot for book 5

Edited December 14, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Haleth]

I just realized how much I look forward to shimpy

probably assuming satin takes the role of olly in the wall plot for book 5

Except for stabbing Jon.

The first "wait, what?" moment could be finding out Mance is alive.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Haleth

[Terra Nova]

I'm still hoping that Shimpy

somehow buys that Davos may indeed die in Dance; I didn't really consider it possible the first time I read the book, but the chapters in White Harbor are really good (go Wylla!)

[Delta1212]

Except for stabbing Jon.

The first "wait, what?" moment could be finding out Mance is alive.

Ha, I forgot about that. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be abel to get anything else done when there is so much fun stuff coming up to look forward to. It's almost like Christmas is coming.

You know, figuratively, as well.

[feverfew]

Wait, what? That's actually the entire opposite of what Daenerys learned.

 

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

 

She learned she's not going to

compromise for a peace. She's going to have it her way with  Fire and Blood if need be even if innocents die. That's what her entire last chapter on ADWD focuses on.  She even admits that Meereen isn't her home. Westeros is and that she should've gone to Westeros instead of stay and linger. And that Meereen is a bunch of freaks and strangers.

 

[...]

 

Sometimes the lessons she learns might not be the lessons you or I agree with or expect. 

 

But if that is the case, Martin really did spoil himself on the Meereenes plot. She "learned" a lesson her brother had already internalized years and years ago - a lesson every conqueror use to justify their actions. If what you write was Martin's intention with Meereen, then there's only one options for Dany's further path in the story: That she'll turn out to be the Big Bad of the series. And I still maintain that if that's what we're supposed to get out of her arc in Dance, Martin really did blunder around in the narrative; that lesson could have been learned so much quicker - she was already on her way in book 2.  Also, since I don't actually believe Martin is going to have Dany as the villain to Jon's hero, I simply have to reject that interpretation. YMMV, of course.

 

Her whole arc

and identity resolved around it. Complaining about its repetition is like complaining about how ASOIAF deals too much with finding your identity. I think it's worth exploring with the character . Anyways, I think the fact that most readers missed it kinda tells me it was subtle to the point where I wonder if we had to have Daenery muse about Daario and War and Hizdahr and Peace.

 

I do maintain that using

Daario as a stand in for war was a good idea as we find him repelling just as we should find war.

 

Of course it's worth exploring. The problem is, Martin didn't really go about it in an interesting way. Hizdahr as Peace/Daario as War is just so basic. I also don't think readers missed it; I think non-casual readers dismissed that simplistic reading of the arc as too easy and casual readers just went "yeah, sure". There's nothing much worth exploring in that dictotomy - it's too juvenile. Hell, Suzanne Collins did it better with Gale and Peeta.

 

As for your last part,

does that mean in your opinion, that we should find Dany repellent too?

Edited December 14, 2015 by feverfew

[bobbybuilderton]

The book readers remember...

[stillshimpy]

Mole!! Mole!! Mollllllllllleeeee! 

 

Sorry, I have nothing to contribute today.  I've fried all my available brain cells in a desperate hunt for a grievously wounded mole after a tense negotiation with my 92 pound dog Oscar.  He relinquished the hostage and was escorted from the scene.  I then had to hunt over a full acre looking for the darned thing which was still alive when last seen.  

 

And I can't find it!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! 

 

My backyard is an acre and I just had to creep across the entirety of it with a shovel held at the ready -- I point out here that I've never actually killed a creature in my life, and was just planning on bravely heaving it over my fence and into a field behind our fence -- and it couldn't be found.  Why gods, why??? 

 

So I'll be back tomorrow, because I need to go and faint now. 

 

ETA:  I now return you to your regularly scheduled tags.  I just figured you'd wonder what the heck was taking me so long and to put it mildly, I'm having a bit of time over here (not limited to attempted body disposal). 

Edited December 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Chris24601]

But if that is the case, Martin really did spoil himself on the Meereenes plot. She "learned" a lesson her brother had already internalized years and years ago - a lesson every conqueror use to justify their actions. If what you write was Martin's intention with Meereen, then there's only one options for Dany's further path in the story: That she'll turn out to be the Big Bad of the series. And I still maintain that if that's what we're supposed to get out of her arc in Dance, Martin really did blunder around in the narrative; that lesson could have been learned so much quicker - she was already on her way in book 2.  Also, since I don't actually believe Martin is going to have Dany as the villain to Jon's hero, I simply have to reject that interpretation. YMMV, of course.

I wouldn't so much say Big Bad as "Equal and Opposite Force to the Others." Ascribing simple labels of "good" and "evil" to characters in ASOIAF really forgets who the author is. GRRM has stated that he really doesn't like to write pure evil villains and I think that we'll learn that includes the Others as well. Similarly, with all the story's focus on the horrors endured by the common man in wartime I just can't see Martin planning an ending that is resolved by a massive battle between "good and evil" with "good" defeating "evil" forever in an all out war. That's far too base and banal for the message I think he's presenting and while such a a battle might happen, I suspect that it will be shown as a "fail state" and not what will ultimately solve anything.

 

My guess is that neither Fire nor Ice can be allowed to win due to the consequences to the rest of the world (eternal fire or eternal ice) and that the resolution will NOT be war, but a peace found in a restoration of balance between the two. Given GRRM's other penchant of 'political marriages are better for the realm than love matches' I'm also wondering if the solution might not be some type of metaphysical wedding/union of opposites between Dany and the leader of the Others that elevates them both to some spiritual realm while Jon (as the balance between Ice and Fire) is left to rule mortal men in a world where balance is now restored.

[WindyNights]

But if that is the case, Martin really did spoil himself on the Meereenes plot. She "learned" a lesson her brother had already internalized years and years ago - a lesson every conqueror use to justify their actions. If what you write was Martin's intention with Meereen, then there's only one options for Dany's further path in the story: That she'll turn out to be the Big Bad of the series. And I still maintain that if that's what we're supposed to get out of her arc in Dance, Martin really did blunder around in the narrative; that lesson could have been learned so much quicker - she was already on her way in book 2.  Also, since I don't actually believe Martin is going to have Dany as the villain to Jon's hero, I simply have to reject that interpretation. YMMV, of course.

 

 

Of course it's worth exploring. The problem is, Martin didn't really go about it in an interesting way. Hizdahr as Peace/Daario as War is just so basic. I also don't think readers missed it; I think non-casual readers dismissed that simplistic reading of the arc as too easy and casual readers just went "yeah, sure". There's nothing much worth exploring in that dictotomy - it's too juvenile. Hell, Suzanne Collins did it better with Gale and Peeta.

 

As for your last part,

does that mean in your opinion, that we should find Dany repellent too?

And that's exactly who Daenerys

is becoming. Another conqueror. And not necessarily the Big Bad. You take the fact that she's turning into a darker character as signs that she'll be the villain. But I'm saying she'll become a ruthless person not a villain. Even ruthless people aren't necessarily villains(Stannis). She's on a route to a darker shade of gray.

 

I mean there are already signs of it.

She felt an anger in her belly at one point and had some guy's daughter tortured in front of him even though she was innocent and he probably was too. And she massacred a whole city's nobility. 12 and above. That's scary to think about.

 

I don't think Jon

is going to remain lily-white either. He's definitely going to become a lot darker as well what with staying in Ghost for so long, Melisandre's growing influence over him and resurrection tending to have you focus on your last actions and thoughts which were in his case, oath-breaking and killing the Boltons. I can see Jon coming back as someone that cares little for oaths and will try any trick in the book to win. I'm mostly thinking shadow-babies. There's already foreshadowing for it when Melisandre mentions that any shadow she casts from the Wall will be especially strong and already trying to seduce Jon once wanting to couple with him for the shadowbabies.

 

And more like we

should find Dany's choice repellant. That was definitely intentional. Which we do of course but some of us turned into Daenerys haters as a result. [

]

Edited December 14, 2015 by WindyNights

[magdalene]

For me the only thing interesting about Dany is her dragons. I find her boring and an annoying special little snow flake.  I would be upset if Drogon died though. One thing that would make Dany interesting for me if she had inherited daddy's craziness and went off the rails at some point -  maybe to be killed off by a more interesting character?

[John Potts]

For me the lesson of Mereen would be

"Good intentions aren't enough for good results". Dany may (initially, at any rate) have been the "nicest" claimant for the iron Throne, but that doesn't make her the best ruler (any more than being a great warrior made Robert a good King). It takes a certain cool detachment and even ruthlessness to rule effectively: compare Tyrion's "rule" as Hand to Dany's rule in Essos. Her principles are entirely noble (you can't really complain about her wanting to free the slaves): you get the impression Tyrion is only interested in ruling to prove he can do as well as his father (and outwit his sister). One reason why I want the two to meet sooner rather than later (as in the show and was gutted to learn they won't meet until the end of Winds).

[stillshimpy]

For you keeping up with the chronicles of my nearly constant face-planting this autumn,  I found the moles escape hatch.  Apparently I got to that sucker before he was too wounded to recover and at least get underground to die.  I've no love for moles, but I'll take it.  Also, when I say "I found" his escape hatch, I mean Oscar did and I wresteld with him as he kept repeatedly diving into the earth in front of me.  I eventually won.  If you want to call it that. 

 

I'm halfway through The Mystery Knight and will finish it later today.  One thing that happened was the mention of the Smallwoods and for a moment I was honestly stuck, trying to remember:  Smallwood.  Smallwood.  Rings a bell, where do I know that one....... Then I remembered.  Only fingerless gloves will do, tragic victim of Ramsay, so that had to be her grandfather (or great grandfather)  in that passage.  

 

I really enjoyed finding out that there are more dragon's eggs out there.  That intrigued me, particularly since there's been at least one other dragon (in the skies over winterfell, the wolves saw it) , so maybe some of the other egg occupants will make an appearance at some point.  I still haven't figured out who the Fiddler is though, but there are a couple of stray observations and they are both just rather cute things: 

 

Duncan saying, "Aye and if all the other knights in the Kingdom were dead, I'd be the captain of the kingsguard" or something very like that.  Cute, considering he's Aegon the Unlikely's Captain of the Kingsguard.  But I do think that sort of settles the question for me -- at least at this juncture -- as to whether or not Arlan truly knighted Duncan.   Maybe I'm just wrong, but if he wasn't actually knighted -- or didn't believe that was what Arlan was trying to do (which is the one I suspect, that Arlan rather creatively and feverishly knighted him...with a bunch of nonsense words....) -- I don't think those are the kinds of jokes he'd make. 

 

Also, even back in time the Freys were gross and I suppose I've just met Walder, who is running around, whacking people with a pig's bladder at a wedding.  Heh.  Okay, grim but funny.  Charming description of him and it does sort of amuse me how far out of his way Martin goes to stick with a theme of your house determining who you are. 

 

I still can't figure out why anyone would think Duncan is one of Brienne's ancestors though, he's still a virgin at this point, thinking about Tanselle, etc.  

 

There was one sort of "Huh, but ....guys know that....so....huh."  thing when Duncan overhears Peake.   The story says that Duncan quits taking a leak for long enough for them to pass.  So we have just discovered our first significant "Westerosi people are slightly different from humans" because ....allegedly guys can stop once they've started.  Women can, but it's sort of well known...or at least well rumored, perhaps without foundation....that once men unleash the torrent, there is no stopping the stream until they're done. 

 

I've never actually asked any guy other than my husband, and he has told me "Nope, we can't."  so....that was ...strange. 

 

Oh and then the other running theme in the story that I've found amusing is how often Duncan threatens Egg with a clout in the ear, etc.  and never actually strikes him. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

I still can't figure out why anyone would think Duncan is one of Brienne's ancestors though

 

Because, among other major clues, Martin confirmed that in Feast one of his descendant would have gotten a POV.

Once you'll get to Dance, we'll tell you how some of the most attentive fans managed to guess plot twists years in advance

Aegon and Bloodraven being the Three Eyed Crow (actually Shimpy should be already able to recognize him, since the 'I've watched you with a thousand eyes and one' line was kept in the show, but shhhh, no one draw attention on that ^^)

 

I found worth of mention how it is rumored that carrion crows spy for Bloodraven and that packs of wolves hunt his opponents.

 

ETA: I also love how Dunk daydreams of running over Ser Peake while throwing badass lines for the sake of Ser Arlan :)

Edited December 15, 2015 by Terra Nova

[bobbybuilderton]

Your husband is wrong. Maybe HE can't stop once he starts but it's fairly common for males to be able to. I used to do it for fun as a kid.

..........

I didn't get out much

[stillshimpy]

You should try googling that, bobby, I just did and the jury is very much divided on whether or not grown men can.  

 

I found worth of mention how it is rumored that carrion crows spy for Bloodraven and that packs of wolves hunt his opponents.

 

I did notice that and have been waiting to see what, if any payoff there will be on these many mentions of how many eyes Bloodraven is said to have.  

[mac123x]

Hmm, grown man here, I can confirm that it's possible to stop. 

[Delta1212]

You should try googling that, bobby, I just did and the jury is very much divided on whether or not grown men can.

I did notice that and have been waiting to see what, if any payoff there will be on these many mentions of how many eyes Bloodraven is said to have.

This might be one of the weirder things I've done, but since I had to go to the bathroom anyway:

Yes, guys can absolutely stop long enough to overhear a conversation.

[stillshimpy]

Hahahahaha!!!  

 

Must be one of those Urban Urine Legends then :-) 

[Haleth]

I foresee some interesting dinner conversations tonight. "How was your day, dear? By the way, can you stop peeing once you start?" Lol

Incidentally, I don't think the wolves saw a dragon. I think they only saw the comet and misunderstood. I could be wrong but I'd be very surprised if there were any dragons in the world beside Dany's.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Haleth

[Delta1212]

So, I think I figured out who(ish) the Fiddler is, but I'm open to being wrong on that count still.

Also, shimpy, are you thinking of Lady Hornwood?

[Lady S.]

I'm halfway through The Mystery Knight and will finish it later today.  One thing that happened was the mention of the Smallwoods and for a moment I was honestly stuck, trying to remember:  Smallwood.  Smallwood.  Rings a bell, where do I know that one....... Then I remembered.  Only fingerless gloves will do, tragic victim of Ramsay, so that had to be her grandfather (or great grandfather)  in that passage.  

 

No, you're thinking of Lady Hornwood. Lady Smallwood was a friend to the BwB in the riverlands and put Arya in an acorn dress when they stayed at her place. Lady Smallwood was her married name, though, so it was her husband who could be that guy's grandson or great-grandson.

[bobbybuilderton]

I foresee some interesting dinner conversations tonight. "How was your day, dear? By the way, can you stop peeing once you start?" Lol

Incidentally, I don't think the wolves saw a dragon. I think they only saw the comet and misunderstood. I could be wrong but I'd be very surprised if there were any dragons in the world beside Dany's.

I have no basis for this, but I like to think that there is a place of origin for dragons somewhere east, near asshai, and the dragons are just staying there for now. They were wiped out everywhere else. 

[Ashara Payne]

I also was under the impression that dragons are from the Asshai area, so there probably is a basis for that thought.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Ashara Payne

[stillshimpy]

I think the passage described seeing wings though. 

 

Thank you! I couldn't for the life of me figure out where I'd seen the name Smallwood. 

 

I foresee some interesting dinner conversations tonight. "How was your day, dear? By the way, can you stop peeing once you start?" Lol

 

Talk to your doctor today about the weirdness pill :-) Side effects include but may not be limited to talking about fantastical beasts.  Stop taking Weirdness immediately if symptoms persist, or you start wondering about Dragon Pee. 

[Delta1212]

I also was under the impression that dragons are from the Asshai area, so there probably is a basis for that thought.

I believe Illyrio told Dany that the three dragon eggs he gave her were from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai.

[Delta1212]

Ok, so I finished, and yeah, I figured out what was going on pretty quickly. Surprisingly, not because of background knowledge of Westerosi history so much as because of something I dismissed that I shouldn't have in The Hedge Knight.

Safe if you've finished the Mystery Knight:

My Targaryen bell starts ringing whenever people start talking about their dreams coming true. I ignored that at the beginning of the Hedge Knight. I listened to it this time, and everything else clicked together very quickly at that point.

[stillshimpy]

See I wasn't ever going to be able to (I guess I should go ahead and spoiler tag this stuff) Mystery Knight

to guess who the Fiddler was, because I didn't realize there were any Blackfyre heirs running around. It's a case of being inundated with too many names of the same sort, they all just start to blend together.  I probably should have started paying more attention when the Fiddler was supposed to be seated on the Dias, meaning he had to at least be from a ruling family.

 

However, I found the dastardly nature of those who surrounded Daemon to be so distracting, I assumed he was going to turn out to be a rather pitiful victim of theirs, vs. guessing he was being put forth as the next Black Dragon.  I felt foolish as soon as it was revealed, because it was a note Martin was revisiting over and over, who fought for the red, who fought for the black and he even emphasized that it was a traitor's tournament.  So that was just daft of me.

 

But truthfully, I had a bit of difficulty fully engaging with this one.  It was as cute as the other ones and I've been surprised by how much I enjoyed Egg, but the actual story was a bit less engaging than the second or the first one.  Also one last thing to

I rather wish that Martin wasn't quite so found of having some "who the hell would ever choose that?" type of standard/shield crest.  A hanged man?  A Black Bat?  I spent about half the story just wanting him to get his bloody shield back in order, because no one would ever willingly be riding around with an "I'm doomed!" avatar like a hanged man.

 

Again, it's a nice relatively frothy sort of tale while still managing to incorporate some darkness. 

[Terra Nova]

The Black Bat on the yellow field is a nice nod to Batman ;) there are others in the text, I remember the Blue Beetle and the Smiling Knight being possibly the Joker.

I always thought anyway that this Blackfyre in particular was just a tool

completely besotted with Dunk and the cause of the hilarious love triangle, with Dunk being '?' all the time

.

Also, let's talk about Maynard Plumm, who said "maybe were're all Aegon's bastards". Who was this guy?

Edited December 16, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Delta1212]

The Black Bat on the yellow field is a nice nod to Batman ;) there are others in the text, I remember the Blue Beetle and the Smiling Knight being possibly the Joker.

I always thought anyway that this Blackfyre in particular was just a tool

completely besotted with Dunk and the cause of the hilarious love triangle, with Dunk being '?' all the time

.

Also, let's talk about Maynard Plumm, who said "maybe were're all Aegon's bastards". Who was this guy?

I kind of figured he was

Bloodraven. And that's having forgotten that line about the bastards. It was the line about Bloodraven knowing "quite a lot" and then his features being I distinct when Dunk tried to focus on him (which I suppose could have been Dunk's injuries, but I think not).

[Delta1212]

See I wasn't ever going to be able to (I guess I should go ahead and spoiler tag this stuff) Mystery Knight

to guess who the Fiddler was, because I didn't realize there were any Blackfyre heirs running around. It's a case of being inundated with too many names of the same sort, they all just start to blend together. I probably should have started paying more attention when the Fiddler was supposed to be seated on the Dias, meaning he had to at least be from a ruling family.

However, I found the dastardly nature of those who surrounded Daemon to be so distracting, I assumed he was going to turn out to be a rather pitiful victim of theirs, vs. guessing he was being put forth as the next Black Dragon. I felt foolish as soon as it was revealed, because it was a note Martin was revisiting over and over, who fought for the red, who fought for the black and he even emphasized that it was a traitor's tournament. So that was just daft of me.

But truthfully, I had a bit of difficulty fully engaging with this one. It was as cute as the other ones and I've been surprised by how much I enjoyed Egg, but the actual story was a bit less engaging than the second or the first one. Also one last thing to

I rather wish that Martin wasn't quite so found of having some "who the hell would ever choose that?" type of standard/shield crest. A hanged man? A Black Bat? I spent about half the story just wanting him to get his bloody shield back in order, because no one would ever willingly be riding around with an "I'm doomed!" avatar like a hanged man.

Again, it's a nice relatively frothy sort of tale while still managing to incorporate some darkness.

Mystery Knight

Once he started talking about his dreams, I was thinking Targ, but we knew who all the legitimate Targaryens were, and Egg certainly would have. And then Dunk overheard them talking about whether "he is his father's son" which I figured definitely wasn't about Fireball's bastard even as they said it, and then as soon as Dunk had the thought that it might be him, it confirmed it wasn't.

So once I was thinking the Fiddler was a Targaryen of unknown provenance, and remembered those people talking about someone being his father's son, well, who is liable to be the father of a young Targaryen man traveling about the countryside incognito 16 years after the Blackfyre rebellion that a bunch of slightly treasonous seeming group of men would hope acted like said father?

[mac123x]

Mystery Knight spoiler:

The Fiddler's prophetic dream about a dragon hatching from an egg turned out to be metaphorical (Egg becoming Aegon), and was rather ham-handedly explained to the readers rather than letting us figure it out.  I took this as a big ol' clue about other prophecies, particularly Melisandre's vague "use king's blood to hatch dragons from stone".

 

Book 5 spoiler:

I'm guessing the "dragon" she'll hatch is Jon Snowgaryen when she resurrects him.  Shireen has the king's blood, and maybe her greyscale is the "stone" though that's starting to edge into "there is no way any of the characters in the book could have correctly interpreted that" territory

[Delta1212]

Mystery Knight spoiler:

The Fiddler's prophetic dream about a dragon hatching from an egg turned out to be metaphorical (Egg becoming Aegon), and was rather ham-handedly explained to the readers rather than letting us figure it out. I took this as a big ol' clue about other prophecies, particularly Melisandre's vague "use king's blood to hatch dragons from stone".

Book 5 spoiler:

I'm guessing the "dragon" she'll hatch is Jon Snowgaryen when she resurrects him. Shireen has the king's blood, and maybe her greyscale is the "stone" though that's starting to edge into "there is no way any of the characters in the book could have correctly interpreted that" territory

Yeah, as soon as (Mystery Knight)

he said he saw a dragon hatch from an egg, my immediate thought was "Well, that's obviously Egg. Guess he's going to be having a coming out party." Although it would up being a little anti-climactic in that respect. I agree that the overt explanation might have been a little much, but then I actually do miss a lot of the stuff that GRRM doesn't explicitly spell out even if I caught quite a lot in this particular story, so maybe it was necessary for some people.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so that was  a moment in the story that I was just frustrated by Mystery Knight

when Maynard Plumm's features are indiscernible it was a case of "oh jeez, there's more to this?  This is a fairly knotted tale already" and all I could think was that it was a Faceless Man and I wondered why in the hell a Faceless Man was there.  Then there was seemingly no payoff to that and Bloodraven was at the bloody gate the next thing I knew.

 

One thing though is that I recognize that Martin constructed the tale to have things to mull over and savor.  That since it was put out between books, that sort of "Jeez, you're being awful cutesy here, aren't you?"  and then it came to me that if he was releasing this story in between books -- and not just in between books, for readers who are used to 700 * 800 pages worth of book -- then Martin was being pretty deliberate by seeding clues throughout.  Although I appreciate the effort, because that kind of thing isn't easy to write, I think that might have added to the frustration of his audience while waiting for another book

 

Realistically even story tellers need to emerge from their made-up worlds for long periods of time.  To sort of stretch out their mental muscle and do things gladly rather than as an obligation.  It is one of the perils of telling a serialized story.  As expectations rise, so does outside pressure, none of which is conducive to "I'm going to write a fabulous, fantastical tale."  So I get why Martin took these kind of breaks.  A way to get away from it all, while still creating and having fun within his own world.  I do wonder what the overall reception was and judging by how many people here haven't read them, I think the answer is safe to guess as being: mixed. 

 

Back to the Mystery Knight

so I'm really torn on Daemon for a couple of reasons, one being that he was exhibiting signs of being too self-indulgently whimsical throughout, and when it was revealed that he was a Targ, it did seem a case of "wrong side of the coin Targ?" but you know, as someone who is just reading these books the whole "oh prophetic dreams!" thing didn't mark him as a Targ, at all.  If I start listing the characters who have had prophetic dreams, I might never stop, but the Starks come to mind much more easily for me.  After that is the Lannisters because I was just up to my butt in Jaime and Cersei dreams and it isn't as if Tyrion failed to drop a couple also/ After that? Brienne, actually.   It's cracking me up that you all thought "A Targ!" when the dreams were mentioned because here's what I thought: Oh...so not a Targ.  Stark?  Huh doesn't seem likely.  Lannister?  Really not likely either.  Who the hell could this be?  Dreams don't mark Targs as automatically for me as they did for you guys, which leads me to believe:  Oh, is it a Dance thing?  Because thus far, in the story I've read, it isn't the mark of a Targaryen.   Sure,  Dany has said, "I'm Daenery's Targaryen, my dreams come true within the series, but....again, if you have a name containing letters in this story, chances area you'll have had a prophetic dream.

 

One more thing and it is something that Martin has once drawn from real history, but if you know history, it gets a little bit "Move on to something else, would you?  You're awfully fond of this particularly note."  

The Regent who likes to pass himself off as a musician.  I can think of three cases where this happened and there are actually more, they just happen to be super well known ones:  One is Henry VIII in meeting Anne of Cleves.  In an equally labored attempt at whimsy -- because part of what is frustrating about The Fiddler is that it is obvious throughout that no one is even pretending that they buy his act, they are just very clearly indulging him and it got annoying because it became a case of "So Dunk, Egg and I are the only participants at this point who aren't clued into this guy's identity.  Spill the fucking beans already."  -- Henry insisted upon meeting Anne of Cleves dressed as a minstrel/jesters (accounts vary) and then was very put off when she was simply cold and put-off by this random guy hitting on her.  It was a thing that it was considered romantic for the bride to be infatuated by this random dude, and so everyone knew it was him.  It was an indulged practice in some courts...and the only problem was the poor Anne of Cleves didn't get the memo and was functioning in something like her fourth language.  So it went over like a fart in church.

 

Martin clearly was very taken by this as a behavior, because he has had Rhaegar, who he might as well have named McDreamy as every female character who met him got weak-kneed and without spine, also liked to do the Walk Among the Common People thing.  So when it became super obvious, which it was from the second he showed up and intentionally so that The Fiddler was no such thing, part of the reason I dismissed the Targ possibility was that I didn't think Martin would re-use that story point again.   Now, it is kind of an interesting thing in history -- it was present in some members of the French court also -- that the royal families were so indulged that they could get away with this farce and everyone, including the person playing the game, knew the score -- it's very much a case of The Emperor Having No Clothes, only everyone knows the guy is naked, up to and including the Emperor.  Instead it's a case of "Let's all pretend you don't see my penis!"

 

Once again I have to leave off to walk my dogs before there is a rebellion. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

With the benefit of hindsight (or is it foresight?), I do think there were a few details in the Mystery Knight that are clearly set up for Dance, that said (Mystery Knight, not really Dance)

the dream thing wasn't a Dance thing. I know plenty of other people have prophetic dreams in the series, but that's one of those traits that has been mentioned to run in the Targaryen line at various points, so when a mysterious character starts talking about his dreams, especially someone in the Southern areas of Westeros where there isn't as much First Men blood running around with greenseers and wargs and the like, my first thought goes to Targaryen. It's not fool proof, of course, but it's what I think of.

[stillshimpy]

I know what you're referring to, Delta, but it sort of fits with the old story saw "Show.  Don't tell."  Mystery Knight

I've been told that Targs have prophetic dreams.  I've been shown a rather varied cast of characters having prophetic dreams.  Now that can be put down to "but magic just sort of woke up again in this world" and that's true.  However, that's only something I'd reach for after trying to figure out why someone is marked as a Targ by having prophetic dreams.  In my story experience, basically all it takes to have prophetic dreams is to be from a family who is one of the lead characters and gets a POV.  Hell, Sam's had them too.  So my answer still wouldn't be "There be a Targ!!" on that.

 

The Dunk and Egg stories aren't seemingly designed for the casual fan though, you know?  Those are for people who want to be in this world.  People who want to have a fleshed out "I could pass a Seven Kingdoms History Test!" immersion.  So your point is also valid in that, that is a detail that likely means more for people who really study the nitty-gritty.  Mystery Knight

for others on a first read?  Yeah, it's such a common thing in the stories. I mean, it's super common.  For all I know Hot Pie is over there Magic Eight Ball Dreaming his butt off, and I don't know because he hasn't had a POV, but it's just not a mark of anything unusual.  Being a warg tends to be, but I don't even have any reason to primarily associate that with Southern people.

Edited December 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I know what you're referring to, Delta, but it sort of fits with the old story saw "Show. Don't tell." Mystery Knight

I've been told that Targs have prophetic dreams. I've been shown a rather varied cast of characters having prophetic dreams. Now that can be put down to "but magic just sort of woke up again in this world" and that's true. However, that's only something I'd reach for after trying to figure out why someone is marked as a Targ by having prophetic dreams. In my story experience, basically all it takes to have prophetic dreams is to be from a family who is one of the lead characters and gets a POV. Hell, Sam's had them too. So my answer still wouldn't be "There be a Targ!!" on that.

The Dunk and Egg stories aren't seemingly designed for the casual fan though, you know? Those are for people who want to be in this world. People who want to have a fleshed out "I could pass a Seven Kingdoms History Test!" immersion. So your point is also valid in that, that is a detail that likely means more for people who really study the nitty-gritty. Mystery Knight

for others on a first read? Yeah, it's such a common thing in the stories. I mean, it's super common. For all I know Hot Pie is over there Magic Eight Ball Dreaming his butt off, and I don't know because he hasn't had a POV, but it's just not a mark of anything unusual. Being a warg tends to be, but I don't even have any reason to primarily associate that with Southern people.

My point was more that green dreams and warging seem more associated with th North and the First Men. There are more Northern houses that seem to display these abilities, and they seem even more common among the Wildlings where the blood of the First Men runs even deeper. So if someone who doesn't seem to be a Northerner displays those traits (Mystery Knight)

My first thought is Targaryen. Granted, that's not the only possible explanation, but it arouses my suspicions, especially with how very Targaryen-heavy the Dunk and Egg stories have been thematically.