S01.E12: I Can't Leave Her

[Chaos Theory]

That's funny -- I almost didn't watch because of JMS.  (I tried a few episodes of the second season of B5 -- everyone said not to watch the first) and just couldn't get into it.)

 

Bi...   Hmmmmm...  Yeah, no definitely bi characters yet.  Nomi and Neeta are possibles but doubtful. So probably no B's. [sad face]

 

 

Bisexual characters are the hardest to write.  I honestly don't think I have seen a television show that has written them well. It is way too easy to pick a gender preference and then one sweeps week have them date the other gender before finally going back to their preferred gender just so the show can put on the bi label.    Just because you say bisexual doesn't mean they are.  

 

As for the first season in general I heard that it was a origin story.  There is supposedly 5 seasons in the works.  Whether or not Netflix does all five seasons is up for debate but I loved every minute of season 1 and I  seeing how each of the 8 began.  

Edited August 21, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[myril]

Bisexual characters are the hardest to write.  I honestly don't think I have seen a television show that has written them well. It is way too easy to pick a gender preference and then one sweeps week have them date the other gender before finally going back to their preferred gender just so the show can put on the bi label.    Just because you say bisexual doesn't mean they are.  

 

Don't quite agree with that. It's not that hard, it's like writing for any other character. What might be hard is to make their bisexuality or pansexuality visible to the audience. Think many might find it harder to write about it because many people have a hard time to wrap their heads around it anyway. Thing is in real life people identify themselves as bisexual because they know they are attracted to more than one gender, but that doesn't always mean they've dated or been in any relationship with people of more than one gender. Even if fictional characters though are shown in relationships with people of different gender, plenty of people will do the same that happens in real life to bisexuals: It's assumed it's just a phase, or a tease, the person is called one week straight the other week gay/lesbian - and no ones cares to ask the person themselves to clear it up, and even if they do often enough they don't accept your answer. Admittedly in writing often is said, show don't tell, so that makes that a bit of a challenge.

 

And, well, while I think it is save to assume Amanita might not be dating guys, and seems to define herself as lesbian, I think she could be quite well seen as acting pansexual. While I and many define bisexual as attracted romantically and/or physically to more than one gender, I know some people see it a bit narrower and the term is criticised for being too stuck in the binaries. So some identify as pansexual, indicating that their attraction is not bound to any binary model, but including attraction to people not fitting into it, transgender, nonbinary and more. Remember the flashback in the first episode to Nominita's first pride together? One of Amanita's friends is reacting quite strongly and hostile to Nomi as being what she perceives as no "real" woman. Sadly these kind of distinctions and discriminations do happen. Amanita takes Nomi the way she is. She is acting pansexual.

 

It's not always the writing, I think it's as much our perception.

Edited August 22, 2015 by myril

[romantic idiot]

I have to say I dislike the idea of cutting down the locations, especially consolidating them in the US. For me a large part of the attraction of this series is the multi-cultural aspect of it, which IMO would be lost if we moved folks to America. I can see Will and Riley ending up in SF, and Wolfgang moving somewhere because his story in Germany seems to be mostly done, but apart fro that, the rest of the characters are rooted in their cultures and I'd like to have those stories drawn to a close before we uproot them. 

[jhlipton]

I have to say I dislike the idea of cutting down the locations, especially consolidating them in the US.

 I can see this as a cost-cutting measure, but I don't like it, either.  The landscapes and cityscapes have been an integral part of the story.

[possibilities]

Maybe Felix can be taken care of wherever they keep Will unconscious. I feel like unless they kill Whispers, they've really got a problem. Will being unconscious would be okay with me for a while, but after a certain point, cutting to scenes in the ward, where Felix and Will are sleeping, is going to get boring. Felix, of course, could recover, though. So then it's just Will being comatose to bore us.

 

Has anyone read the story "More than Human"? It's a sci-fi novel about a group of people who together for a whole functioning organism. I kept thinking about it while watching Sense8.

 

I also have been thinking about parallels to Orphan Black, in that there's a conspiracy, and a deeply connected group of people fighting it as a collective. On OB they don't share thoughts, but they do stand in for each other at times.

[kieyra]

I just re watched the back half. On the one hand, I have a terrible attention span and I almost didn't make it past episode three the first time around, on the other hand this show is a very slow burn and it really pays off with the action scenes and the emotional wallops. It also rewards rewatch--some of the transitions make a lot more sense the second time around, whereas when you're still figuring out what's going on you might not stop to think about why one member ends up with another during a specific scene. (Sometimes it's spelled out, but not always.)

I also highly recommend watching the "making of" featurette at the end of the episode run on Netflix. It's really interesting watching Lana work.

Finally, this was asked upthread but I don't think was answered: was the heart attack victim supposed to remain a mystery? The first time through, I was having to FF through a few scenes--I can only take so much of the Riley wreck stuff, it's just too brutal--and assumed I missed it, but this time I'm not sure they ever say who it was. I was thinking maybe Yrsa.

[Isazouzi]

2) Riley saying "Not these mountains on the Road to Nowhere -- as Nomi put it -- made me wunder where the heck she, Magnus and Luke were driving from and to, anyway?  Why were they in such a remote location?

 

 

 Why on Earth were she and her husband driving through a secluded mountain road at nighttime during a snowstorm? Because it gives the scene a foreshadow-y dreadful tone and effectively weaponizes Icelandic weather and land, feeding Riley's fear of returning there (like the beach and cave scenes).

 

 

I thought Riley was in labor and they were driving to the hospital? That's why they were driving at night in the middle of a snowstorm. 

 

 

But why were they on top of a mountain in the middle of nowhere?

 

 

I also question why they were on that lonely road. The evil organization seems to be only a few minutes drive from where the accident occurred. So Riley was living that closely to that isolated secret government complex? That's weird.

 

I thought someone from Iceland was going to come and answer these questions, but since no one has, here goes: because it's Iceland! When you know the country, there's nothing weird about those scenes.

Iceland is covered in mountains, volcanoes and glaciers, so there are very few roads. Also there are only 300,000 inhabitants or so in the whole country, and almost 3/4 of them live in Reykjavik, which means that everyone else lives literally in the middle of nowhere. What seems like a secluded mountain road is actually a normal road there. So yes, Magnus was probably taking Riley to the hospital in Reykjavik, since they were near the the secret government facility which is actually a geothermic power plant 20 minutes outside of Reykjavik.

[jhlipton]

I thought someone from Iceland was going to come and answer these questions, but since no one has, here goes: because it's Iceland! 

 

Thanks for the explanation!

[Boundary]

That explanation makes a lot of practical sense. As viewers, we've been conditioned to overthink these things on a mystery show like this. Still, it doesn't mean the Ws can't mine this for some intriguing background info on Riley! 

[Holmbo]

On 2015-06-10 at 2:33 PM, SoothingDave said:

I think it was an interesting series, if a bit hacky in places.  I would have liked to have seen the "power" used for more than fighting and blowing stuff up.  Especially after Jonas gave a dissertation about how regular humans are so good at killing because they can't feel.

 

Guess what?  Machete ninja fighting and killing your uncle's entire squad of henchmen is not some new, gentler humanity. 

Totally agree. It seems so far that the violent characters are the most useful and violence is the go to solution to most of their problems. It would be nice if the overall arc of the show was for them to turn away from this into more peaceful, thought out methods. Perhaps then characters like Kala and Riley could be of more use too.

On 2015-07-09 at 4:09 AM, Enero said:

Lito still has to deal with being exposed to the Mexican film industry as gay(whenever that happens), but I also wonder what Hernando and Dani will think of his sensate abilities or if he'll even tell them? I find it refreshing, yet strange that Dani is so willing to live her life being the third wheel, for lack of a better term, in Lito/Hernando's relationship. Doesn't she want a relationship of her own? A life outside of watching them be in love. I'm sure it's completely a long shot, because I do think she's absolutely genuine, but I do wonder if she has a nefarious agenda.

I think what they have with Dani is more than regular friendship. Not romantic or sexual but she does fill a role and she seems satisfied, for the moment. We'll see what happens in the long run. She has weird family baggage too so we'll see when that comes up.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Considering all of the crazy stuff we have seen on this show, it was even sadder to see that Magnus and Luna died in such an ordinary way (it reminded me of when Buffy's mom died of natural causes rather than anything supernatural).

I have always had this paranoia about being trapped inside a car and seeing Riley punch the frozen car window until her hand was bloody only confirmed that my paranoia is not unjustified. A few years ago, there were a bunch of season finale episodes that involved similar situations (Elena trapped in a car that went off a bridge on The Vampire Diaries, the pilot of a crashed plane trapped by his seat belt on Grey's Anatomy, and one other that escapes my memory at the moment) all within the span of a week which only amped up my paranoia. I ended up buying a Lifehammer and a ResQme keychain the next week because I was so freaked out.

How did Will manage to bring a gun to Iceland?

Part of me was cringing during Wolfgang's big shootout because I hated seeing that beautiful staircase shot up. I was yelling at Wolfgang to stop wasting bullets. Then I was yelling at him to stop wasting time by talking to his uncle. Shoot him and get the fuck out of there! Man, I give him a lot of credit for killing his own father when he was still so young. He was so tiny compared to his dad.

Why are the other sensates so obsessed with getting this cluster to kill themselves? First Yrsa tried to get Riley to kill herself and then Jonas tried to get Will to kill himself.

One part of the mythology they never explained is what activates a cluster into becoming aware of each other. It can't be strictly an age thing since Will saw Sarah when he was still a kid. Jonas mentioned that when the sensates begin sensating, they get an intense headache (which Riley mentioned several times in the first episode or two) but he never explained when or why they start visiting and sharing.

Edited August 6, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[paramitch]

Just a wave that I just fell into this show over the past week and I'm so, so in love. I tried watching a year or so back but wasn't grabbed, and stupidly stopped after two episodes. But this time, I fell head over heels. It's one of the most beautiful shows I've seen about individuality and inclusiveness. But most of all, it's about loneliness and the search for connection.

Episode 4 of Season 1 ends on one of the most transcendent moments I've seen on TV. Seriously, just a lovely, lovely show. And I loved Season 1 (which I just finished) and all its sweet, messy, humanistic characters in the cluster.

On 8/21/2015 at 4:56 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Bisexual characters are the hardest to write.  I honestly don't think I have seen a television show that has written them well. It is way too easy to pick a gender preference and then one sweeps week have them date the other gender before finally going back to their preferred gender just so the show can put on the bi label.    Just because you say bisexual doesn't mean they are.  

As for the first season in general I heard that it was a origin story.  There is supposedly 5 seasons in the works.  Whether or not Netflix does all five seasons is up for debate but I loved every minute of season 1 and I  seeing how each of the 8 began.  

 

I would agree that bisexual characters can be challenging, but I do think it's been done well on occasion -- I'd point to Joe (Lee Pace), the lead character on the gorgeous and underrated HALT AND CATCH FIRE as a great example of a bi character done well (especially in seasons 2-4). I'd also point to Darryl on CRAZY EX-GIRLFRIEND, Captain Jack as a seriously fantastic and groundbreaking pansexual on DOCTOR WHO and TORCHWOOD, and Alana Bloom on HANNIBAL.

Meanwhile, in interviews, Lana has said point-blank that she thinks all of the Sense8 core cluster characters are pansexual. Which makes sense to me -- they may all fall on varying places on the Kinsey scale from gay to straight, but I think the Sense8 experience has blurred some of those boundaries enough that every one of them is able to find gender meaningless when it comes to a sensual connection, especially in a sexual moment. Which is why I think the orgy scene in episode 7 was so gorgeous and necessary -- it wasn't just pretty to look at, it was a core turning point for almost all of the characters (and for our awareness of them).

On 3/25/2017 at 4:22 PM, Holmbo said:

Totally agree. It seems so far that the violent characters are the most useful and violence is the go to solution to most of their problems. It would be nice if the overall arc of the show was for them to turn away from this into more peaceful, thought out methods. Perhaps then characters like Kala and Riley could be of more use too.

I think what they have with Dani is more than regular friendship. Not romantic or sexual but she does fill a role and she seems satisfied, for the moment. We'll see what happens in the long run. She has weird family baggage too so we'll see when that comes up.

I definitely get some of the violence complaints, but at the same time, I think the show (while enormously complex on human nature and human sexuality) isn't that complex in its villains. In almost every situation where a Sense8 committed murders and multiple murders, they were situations of one 'good' Sense8 facing down a bunch of evil men, impossible choices, and no other way out. I did think Capheus's massacre was oddly tone-deaf for such a sweet character, but it was the only way out of a terrible situation.

I guess I feel like every one of the bad guys killed so far has shown themselves to be vile and willing to kill indiscriminately, and that they then put the Sense8 character into a situation in which they had no choice but to kill them all. Even Wolfgang, I would argue, faced a similar situation with his uncle after being forced to kill his cousin and his men. His uncle was an organized crime head who was going to come after him (and who, we saw, had actively condoned the attack on his friend and his own torture and abuse for years at the hands of his father).

I thought Wolfgang's killing of his uncle was the most disturbing moment of violence so far, but I also thought the show knew that, showed it in a way that was disturbing and ugly, and even moments later, Kala is still in tears over it while helping Riley wake up. I do think the show recognizes when the violence is cartoonish action-stuff and when it is more than that.

With that said, I hope they tone that down in Season 2. Watching gentle Capheus kill a roomful of people really wasn't the way to show that Sense8s are more evolved and empathetic, feeling, caring people.

Meanwhile, as far as Dani, I actually think Dani's relationship with Lito and Hernando would qualify as poly, in an odd way, because of the way they have unselfconsciously allowed her repeatedly into the bedroom and into their bed. I thought it was poignant and apparent that when Lito went to rescue her, he was rescuing a friend, but also a family member or partner (which was also why I felt Hernando was so upset over Lito sacrificing her initially). I do think Dani is a core part now of Hernando and Lito's romance in some unspoken and intrinsic way -- maybe not 24/7, but I think she is part of their inner family now, part of their household.

On 8/5/2017 at 6:06 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Considering all of the crazy stuff we have seen on this show, it was even sadder to see that Magnus and Luna died in such an ordinary way (it reminded me of when Buffy's mom died of natural causes rather than anything supernatural).

Why are the other sensates so obsessed with getting this cluster to kill themselves? First Yrsa tried to get Riley to kill herself and then Jonas tried to get Will to kill himself.

One part of the mythology they never explained is what activates a cluster into becoming aware of each other. It can't be strictly an age thing since Will saw Sarah when he was still a kid. Jonas mentioned that when the sensates begin sensating, they get an intense headache (which Riley mentioned several times in the first episode or two) but he never explained when or why they start visiting and sharing.

 

Watching poor Riley lose her husband, give birth after a traumatic car crash, joyfully hold her tiny baby, and then watch her freeze to death? One of the most brutal things I have ever seen on television. Poor Riley. No wonder she kept simply trying to numb herself. (On a side note: I cannot believe Tuppence, her actress, was just 18 when she filmed the show -- she's a lovely girl but I definitely thought she, like the other Sense8s, was more in her mid-to-late twenties. But she's an absolutely wonderful actress.)

I think the suicide option is brought up whenever there's imminent danger of a single Sense8 posing an active danger to the cluster and discovery via Whispers -- once he has one of them, he has all of them. So Jonas tried to get Will (and Riley) to kill themselves once Whispers had seen Will, and it's also why Yrsa wanted Riley to kill herself (also, I deeply dislike Yrsa and think she's simply a cold-hearted ass).

My take on your last question is that the cluster awareness only dawned when the Sense8s were "born" to Angelica. Will's awareness of Sarah was similar to Riley's awareness of Yrsa -- other Sense8s can visit each other once aware, but they cannot sense/live as each other the way the cluster can. So Will felt no awareness of the rest of his cluster until their 'birth' -- he was simply visited by Sarah because he was a fellow Sense8 in proximity (and it seems like they actually saw each other once? Or maybe the connection was just through his father's investigation -- I'm not sure). 

Thanks for the great discussions about Season 1. I love this show, and found it ultimately a really emotional exploration of loneliness, love and connectedness. The world feels very disconnected right now, so watching these people find each other and become a family has been very moving for me.

Edited June 27, 2018 by paramitch