Show Analysis: Dr Huang Will See You Now

[Xeliou66]

I watched several early season episodes this week and it’s really something to compare the quality of the show then to the current quality - this show was so great in the early seasons - great cases with a variety of subjects and good twists and suspense without going overboard, and not nearly as much personal drama and no over-focus on one character. I think season 2 is the best season of SVU - so many great episodes, at least half of them are great, classic episodes.  
I really wish the show was still high quality - the show dropped off some starting in about season 9 and had its highs and lows over the next few years, but it’s devolved into a total shitshow since season 15, with a few exceptions. 

[MarylandGirl]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:43 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I watched several early season episodes this week and it’s really something to compare the quality of the show then to the current quality - this show was so great in the early seasons - great cases with a variety of subjects and good twists and suspense without going overboard, and not nearly as much personal drama and no over-focus on one character. I think season 2 is the best season of SVU - so many great episodes, at least half of them are great, classic episodes.  
I really wish the show was still high quality - the show dropped off some starting in about season 9 and had its highs and lows over the next few years, but it’s devolved into a total shitshow since season 15, with a few exceptions. 

i've also been watching some earlier episodes lately and agree with you. I think part of it also is that having Huang and Warner helped balance it out some--it would be good if they could have a regular psychiatrist and ME again. I think another issue is that so many of the later cases started to be about rich white people and he-said, she-said sort of cases. There are some good ones in there, but the quality in general was so much higher the first, say, 7 or so seasons. Really up through when Stabler left, for the most part, so through season 12. Some good stuff at times after, just much less consistent. Definitely a big dropoff after 15, like you said.

Edited March 13, 2023 by MarylandGirl

[Xeliou66]

31 minutes ago, MarylandGirl said:

i've also been watching some earlier episodes lately and agree with you. I think part of it also is that having Huang and Warner helped balance it out some--it would be good if they could have a regular psychiatrist and ME again. I think another issue is that so many of the later cases started to be about rich white people and he-said, she-said sort of cases. There are some good ones in there, but the quality in general was so much higher the first, say, 7 or so seasons. Really up through when Stabler left, for the most part, so through season 12. Some good stuff at times after, just much less consistent. Definitely a big dropoff after 15, like you said.

Yep having more people involved such as Huang and Warner helped the show, as did having a slew of recurring characters. I think the main factor is the variety of cases, they had cases that dealt with all kinds of crimes and issues and that’s what made the show so good. Now as you said they do a ton of he said/she said rape cases involving rich white people, frequently we know exactly who the perp is and what they are guilty of from the start of the episode, so there’s no suspense. I blame Mariska for this - since those types of episodes became way more common when she got more control over the show, I think she loves the theme of “Benson taking on a powerful predator” and the “believe all women” themes of the he said/she said episodes, and it allows for a lot of scenes of Benson to preach to the victims and people involved and give lectures and try to look heroic and saintly. The show is best when having a variety of cases and storylines, but instead they’ve opted to go for a ton of the same storylines over and over and care more about making Benson look good than about the quality of the show. 

[wknt3]

On 3/13/2023 at 7:11 PM, MarylandGirl said:

i've also been watching some earlier episodes lately and agree with you. I think part of it also is that having Huang and Warner helped balance it out some--it would be good if they could have a regular psychiatrist and ME again. I think another issue is that so many of the later cases started to be about rich white people and he-said, she-said sort of cases. There are some good ones in there, but the quality in general was so much higher the first, say, 7 or so seasons. Really up through when Stabler left, for the most part, so through season 12. Some good stuff at times after, just much less consistent. Definitely a big dropoff after 15, like you said.

 

On 3/13/2023 at 7:54 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yep having more people involved such as Huang and Warner helped the show, as did having a slew of recurring characters. I think the main factor is the variety of cases, they had cases that dealt with all kinds of crimes and issues and that’s what made the show so good. Now as you said they do a ton of he said/she said rape cases involving rich white people, frequently we know exactly who the perp is and what they are guilty of from the start of the episode, so there’s no suspense. I blame Mariska for this - since those types of episodes became way more common when she got more control over the show, I think she loves the theme of “Benson taking on a powerful predator” and the “believe all women” themes of the he said/she said episodes, and it allows for a lot of scenes of Benson to preach to the victims and people involved and give lectures and try to look heroic and saintly. The show is best when having a variety of cases and storylines, but instead they’ve opted to go for a ton of the same storylines over and over and care more about making Benson look good than about the quality of the show. 

To be fair they have realized they were overdoing the he said, she said cases with wealthy white victims and perps and given us more variety in the past few years. And yes this is an area where Mariska's influence is a primary cause - when her influence is strongest we get more (i.e Season 18) and when there is a stronger showrunner counterweight we get more types of crimes. I think it's not just about her ego - her work with her foundation exposed her to a lot of advocates and experts who pointed out that the vast majority of sexual assaults involve victims and perps who know each other and a smaller majority involve a power dynamic. And I suspect the focus on wealthy young white women as victims is more about target demographics. As far as fewer recurring characters and showing the crime I would bet that this is all about the budget. You can show the crime in cheesy, poorly edited montage and use actors who you are already paying for the later acts and avoid paying recurring guest star money for the MEs, CSU techs, etc. needed when you are doing whodunnits every week. Of course Mariska plays a role there as she is getting a larger slice of a smaller pie, but I can't entirely blame her for using her leverage and the ultimate blame lies with Dick Wolf and NBC.

[Spartan Girl]

The ending to “Vanity’s Bonfire” still irks me to this day. Not just that Liv and Amaro helped the terminally ill mom take the rap for her daughter, but it was all so unnecessary. Liv was right in the first place: a jury would understand and sympathize that a teenage girl with a sick mom snapped after Delia had the audacity to show her the sex tape with her father. Very few people would have compassion for an unstable, selfish woman that harassed her married boyfriend’s dying wife and the adopted parents of her baby. Factor in the daughter’s age, and she could have gotten a pretty good plea deal, not go away for life.

Also I’m gonna have to side-eye the daughter hard for letting her mom go to jail instead of telling the truth. Yeah, the mom told her to keep quiet but kids defy their parents all the time. I would never let my mom take the fall for me, especially if she had cancer.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The ending to “Vanity’s Bonfire” still irks me to this day. Not just that Liv and Amaro helped the terminally ill mom take the rap for her daughter, but it was all so unnecessary. Liv was right in the first place: a jury would understand and sympathize that a teenage girl with a sick mom snapped after Delia had the audacity to show her the sex tape with her father. Very few people would have compassion for an unstable, selfish woman that harassed her married boyfriend’s dying wife and the adopted parents of her baby. Factor in the daughter’s age, and she could have gotten a pretty good plea deal, not go away for life.

Also I’m gonna have to side-eye the daughter hard for letting her mom go to jail instead of telling the truth. Yeah, the mom told her to keep quiet but kids defy their parents all the time. I would never let my mom take the fall for me, especially if she what cancer.

Yep - Vanity’s Bonfire is one of SVU’s worst episodes ever because of that awful ending, and frankly I found it unbelievable even for Benson’s standards that she would let the mom cover for the daughter in that case. Epically stupid. 

[Xeliou66]

I never did post my overall thoughts on season 24, so I’ll do that now on this thread 

It was a mixed bag - the best thing about the season was having a full squadroom again in a lot of episodes, it was really nice to see that there were more than just a couple of detectives in Manhattan SVU. The detectives themselves were again a mixed bag ( I love Bruno, Churlish is growing on me, Muncy was awful), but it was nice to see a full squad.

Worst things about the season were the usual Benson crap and worship of her, and while there were no horrendous episodes that made me want to break my tv, there were a lot of forgettable, unoriginal, mediocre episodes, particularly in the first half of the season. The show seemed to lack direction at times. The 3 episode arc about Benson in the Bronx wasn’t good. And there was no reason for the Velasco subplot that implied he was shady, and Benson’s attitude towards him was really condescending and extremely hypocritical, fortunately they got Velasco back on track by seasons end. And Muncy was an awful addition, she was totally unbelievable as a detective and came off as juvenile, I really wish they knew how to write female characters better, hopefully they’ll do it better with Churlish as they got a much better handle on her by seasons end and she may become a solid character. And having Rollins last episode as a regular be more about St Olivia/Noah than Rollins was pathetic. 

Fin and Carisi were standouts as always, Fin is the anchor of the show, and Carisi had his best season yet as ADA, they knocked off the “trash the DA’s office” bullshit and let Carisi do his job. He’s just as good in the ADA role as in the detective role. Bruno is great as well, best new character since Carisi.

Best episode of the season was definitely Dutch Tears, great Fin centric storyline with nice stuff for Bruno and Carisi as well, and none of the stuff that annoys me about modern day SVU, plus a Munch update! There was no glaring worst episode of the season, but more than a few completely forgettable episodes.

It’s nice that we have a few recurring characters as well now, such as ME Truman and Lorraine Maxwell. But get rid of McGrath ASAP, every time he’s on screen I long for Dodds/Garland. 

So while season 24 lacked direction at times, it seems like the show found better footing at the end of the season and hopefully will be better going forward - I hope they bump Bruno and Churlish up to regulars, and it will be interesting to see if they bring back Rollins on a full time or part time basis. The cases towards the end of the season were more original and better done than in the first half of the season, so maybe the writers are starting to figure things out. 

[Mislav]

I still remember how badly written the episode "Harm" was. The worker at the refugee center, mostly dealing with Muslims, is murdered. One of the suspects is a girl who made a controversial song/music video about Islamic terrorism and how Quran tells men it's OK to beat their wives. Her aunt was killed in 9/11 terrorist attacks. The girl is a suspect because the girl tried to tank her college application. When the girl points out that Quran really does teach such things, the writers have Fun respond by saying that the Bible says men shouldn't let women teach or talk to them.

The scene is beyond stupid and heavy handed for several reasons. First, Fin doesn't even try to refute what the girl saud about the Quran, because he can't. He just uses whataboutism. Second of all, that same logic can be used against him. "If that Bible verse is problematic, what does that say about the Quran?" Because the Quran does contain even worse passages, like the girl said. Thirdly, the SVU doesn't even know that the girl and her family are even Christians, so they basically assume "against Islam=Christian". Lastly, they are acting like this was some stereotypical skinhead/neo-Nazi radicalized by Stormfront and shock jocks, and not somebody whose family member was actually killed on 9/11. Didn't you show more sympathy to the perpetrator in "Branded", even though she sexually assaulted two people?

Also, there is no way the SVU would have responded with the same vitriol to somebody who made such a song about Christians, or burned a bunch of Bibles in public, or anything.

But the SVU's selective morality really takes the cake. Remember the lawyer from "True Believers"? He, in all likelihood, knew that his client (on trial for rape) was guilty. But he still tried to convince the jury that the racist cops framed him. He shamed and victim-blamed the victim while cross-examining her. And the jury bought it. And after that episode, Olivia and the SVU still cooperate and even semi-befriend that same lawyer, apparently believing his heart was in the right place. Where was their outrage then? Just ew. I wished somebody would shoot that worthless scum to death in front of the courthouse (and his client too), but of course that didn't happen.

They also act like the victim trying to tank the girl's college application was a good thing. Ironically, the victim worked at a refugee center, and she more than likely would have gladly helped completely undocumented immigrants get into the country, totally believing their sympathetic stories with no way of knowing anything of their true identities or intentions. Then, a few years later, when something like the Berlin truck attack or London bridge stabbing happens on American soil, I'm sure everyone would act surprised. "Who could have possibly seen this coming?" Once again, ew.

 

I get what the writers were going for: bigotry is never OK and the War on Terror was a mistake (something that many Americans have realized by 2007, but many were probably still on the fence about it too). But seriously, get it together. Equating free speech with torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and hate crimes (even indirectly) is the worst kind of virtue signaling and wanton ignorance.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mislav

[Xeliou66]

Harm was indeed poorly written - it was very clunky and heavy handed. Season 9 was around the time the show’s writing started to deteriorate and become very inconsistent, Harm was one of the worst from season 9. While I agree with the stance that torture is always wrong and illegal, I thought that episode did a poor job of dealing with the subject matter. And yeah SVU can be all over the map in later seasons with regards to how sympathetic characters are to suspects/victims - very inconsistent, and I think Benson in particular can be very hypocritical when she will condemn others for actions that she herself has done, and it drives me nuts how Benson seems to think that women who’ve been assaulted have the right to take the law into their own hands. 

[Spartan Girl]

I hate “Harm” because the corporation basically helped the murderer and his family escape the country, so then the whole thing was redirected to the doctor that helped the killer torture people, then then she wound up getting off Scott free (other than suspending her license). So nobody is held accountable for any of it. Ugh.

I honestly can’t believe the killer’s wife would willingly have gone with him. And even if she didn’t know what he did, ten bucks says that nutcase killed her and the kids in the future.

On 8/23/2023 at 2:02 PM, Mislav said:

But the SVU's selective morality really takes the cake. Remember the lawyer from "True Believers"? He, in all likelihood, knew that his client (on trial for rape) was guilty. But he still tried to convince the jury that the racist cops framed him. He shamed and victim-blamed the victim while cross-examining her. And the jury bought it. And after that episode, Olivia and the SVU still cooperate and even semi-befriend that same lawyer, apparently believing his heart was in the right place. Where was their outrage then? Just ew. I wished somebody would shoot that worthless scum to death in front of the courthouse (and his client too), but of course that didn't happen.

Agree with everything, but I wouldn’t wish that on Ellis. I didn’t hate him as much as that PIG Buchanan, who actually enjoyed slut-shaming victims, then had the nerve to mention his own daughter and how she “likes to party” in one case.

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I hate “Harm” because the corporation basically helped the murderer and his family escape the country, so then the whole thing was redirected to the doctor that helped the killer torture people, then then she wound up getting off Scott free (other than suspending her license). So nobody is held accountable for any of it. Ugh.

I honestly can’t believe the killer’s wife would willingly have gone with him. And even if she didn’t know what he did, ten bucks says that nutcase killed her and the kids in the future.

Agree with everything, but I wouldn’t wish that on Ellis. I didn’t hate him as much as that PIG Buchanan, who actually enjoyed slut-shaming victims, then had the nerve to mention his own daughter and how she “likes to party” in one case.

Buchanan is one of the best adversaries on SVU, yeah he seems to enjoy representing rich scumbags and trying to get them off by victim blaming and he does seem to take pleasure in tormenting victims. He’s a smug bastard with a punchable face - he’s loathsome but his episodes are always entertaining.

[Mislav]

Happy Halloween!

[Mislav]

Merry Christmas!

[kathyk2]

I watched an old episode of SVU Rotten where Fin and Olivia were partners. They were so good together. I would have kept them as partners and paired Munch and Stabler. The show would avoid the Elliott and Olivia soap opera. I agree that SVU would benefit from having more characters especially a psychiatrist.

[Xeliou66]

54 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

I watched an old episode of SVU Rotten where Fin and Olivia were partners. They were so good together. I would have kept them as partners and paired Munch and Stabler. The show would avoid the Elliott and Olivia soap opera. I agree that SVU would benefit from having more characters especially a psychiatrist.

Yeah a psych expert is sorely missed, as are a lot of the recurring characters. It’s crazy to me how SVU now only has 4 main characters, it’s absurd how the show has become so centered around St Olivia to the point where everyone else is just a side character. I’m sick of the nonstop Olivia worship - this show has just become a vehicle for MH to promote herself.

[kathyk2]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah a psych expert is sorely missed, as are a lot of the recurring characters. It’s crazy to me how SVU now only has 4 main characters, it’s absurd how the show has become so centered around St Olivia to the point where everyone else is just a side character. I’m sick of the nonstop Olivia worship - this show has just become a vehicle for MH to promote herself.

I don't think the show worships Olivia she's been through too much trauma. Mariska has been with the show from the beginning it makes sense the show revolves around her. 

[Xeliou66]

19 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

I don't think the show worships Olivia she's been through too much trauma. Mariska has been with the show from the beginning it makes sense the show revolves around her. 

It makes sense that she’s the main character but the show does revolve around her too much, at the expense of other characters. And yes the show does worship Olivia - she’s never wrong about anything, other characters are constantly talking about how she’s the greatest, no one is allowed to question her and so on. Benson is treated like a fucking superhero. I really miss the days before MH became a producer and hijacked the show, when the cases were front and center, not Olivia drama, when other characters got screen time, and when Benson wasn’t always 100% right about everything and was portrayed as a normal character and not a saint and an all knowing beacon of light. 

[wknt3]

On 1/10/2024 at 7:42 PM, kathyk2 said:

I don't think the show worships Olivia she's been through too much trauma. Mariska has been with the show from the beginning it makes sense the show revolves around her. 

 

On 1/10/2024 at 8:06 PM, Xeliou66 said:

It makes sense that she’s the main character but the show does revolve around her too much, at the expense of other characters. And yes the show does worship Olivia - she’s never wrong about anything, other characters are constantly talking about how she’s the greatest, no one is allowed to question her and so on. Benson is treated like a fucking superhero. I really miss the days before MH became a producer and hijacked the show, when the cases were front and center, not Olivia drama, when other characters got screen time, and when Benson wasn’t always 100% right about everything and was portrayed as a normal character and not a saint and an all knowing beacon of light. 

Well said. There is a difference between the show being centered on a star, and the show building up the lead by shoving anyone else down. Criminal Intent vs. SVU. Heck even Organized Crime which was designed as a Meloni vehicle from the start and lacks any other reason to exist has done more to have an actual ensemble, with the shedding of characters and cast having more to do with a lack of sustained coherent vision and characters having natural endpoints to their story. They even kept the original male co-lead who took focus from the lead around loooong past the natural endpoint to his story...

Edited January 13 by wknt3
fix typos

[Xeliou66]

I was watching some of the SVU Saturday marathon on ION today, and I’ll say again - season 15 is when SVU started to go downhill into the 100% St Olivia circle jerk that it’s become today - particularly Cragen and Munch leaving is the start of what sent the show downhill. And it could’ve still been good after their departures, even with Benson as squad leader, if they had actually let Benson grow as a character and become more objective and aware of her biases and work on her adjusting them to be a good squad leader. But Mariska’s ego wouldn’t allow it - instead Benson became MORE biased and used her position as squad leader to engage in activism and agenda pushing, and it was also the start of portraying Benson as a beacon of light and wisdom, with countless people thanking Olivia for speaking out for them and telling her how great she was - that rarely happened before season 15. And of course Benson wasn’t allowed to be wrong about anything anymore. Mariska becoming a producer is what ruined the show - it stopped being SVU and became the St Olivia hour. 
Some people say that the show went downhill when Stabler left, I disagree, seasons 13-14 were much getter than the last 3 or 4 Stabler years actually, it was season 15, when Mariska became a producer and Munch/Cragen retired, that the show started going downhill.

And it’s a travesty what they did to Barba, SVU’s best ever ADA, I was watching episodes like Military Justice and Jersey Breakdown where he was so good, and it’s shameful how they castrated him, had his character go off the rails and then just become lovesick for Benson. Disgusting. 

[wknt3]

Moving this over from the episode thread as it's really more general discussion -

 

On 3/29/2024 at 5:50 PM, dttruman said:

I have so many question, but I think we may never get answers to some of them. Has Wolf given Hargitay the keys to the SVU show? If not, how much clout does she have or what is she guaranteed? Does she have to bring in each show under budget to keep her character as the main one each week? Can the Benson character take two weeks off to see how it effects the ratings or does it need to be a whole month?

 

On 3/30/2024 at 10:13 AM, Zaffy said:

I didn't really have a problem with "Saint Olivia", but now she has become insufferable. The writing is really bad and the acting as well. And I do not get it, I know Mariska can act well.
Maybe they have market research we do not know about and follow what "the audience wants",  dunno, it is just bad.

Yes they do have market research. There is a certain percentage of the viewers that have stuck around to see how Benson's story turns out. I know it has been mentioned in past articles. We also know that it is out there because NBC execs have previously said publicly that they were waiting to sign a contract before renewing the series. And because Dick Wolf does not let any actor get so much money and become bigger than the show without some hard evidence that it is needed.

As far as the extent of her power and influence it does have limits. NBC is only willing to spend so much on the show, even if it is the number 1 scripted drama on NBC and Peacock (yes, yes bar so low it's on the ground etc.) and they did realize after Season 18 that they needed to provide a variety of plots even if Mariska had a certain focus on particular types of sexual abuse and power dynamics that she wanted to portray almost exclusively. The biggest limit on her creative influence is the showrunner and the budgetary constraints. Chernuchin and especially Leight have strong track records and influence on their own and pushed back a bit. Without that we find that it's all Benson all the time. As far as budget is concerned - budgets are not really her concern and don't seem to interest her except in being the highest paid actress on network television. Which is why it is one of the few real limits to her influence - budgets get tighter and her salary keeps rising which meant for example KG had to go even if Mariska wanted her to stay. And that they can't do too much to make Benson into an action hero. Dick Wolf is not going to spend his own money to keep Mariska happy. And money is the reason that no matter what we will not see a significant decrease in her screen time. She simply gets paid too much to sit on the bench (insert Mets joke here) and they don't really have any alternative unless Meloni ends up free...

Edited April 2 by wknt3

[dttruman]

3 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Moving this over from the episode thread as it's really more general discussion -

 

 

Yes they do have market research. There is a certain percentage of the viewers that have stuck around to see how Benson's story turns out. I know it has been mentioned in past articles. We also know that it is out there because NBC execs have previously said publicly that they were waiting to sign a contract before renewing the series. And because Dick Wolf does not let any actor get so much money and become bigger than the show without some hard evidence that it is needed.

As far as the extent of her power and influence it does have limits. NBC is only willing to spend so much on the show, even if it is the number 1 scripted drama on NBC and Peacock (yes, yes tallest m***** etc.) and they did realize after Season 18 that they needed to provide a variety of plots even if Mariska had a certain focus on particular types of sexual abuse and power dynamics that she wanted to portray almost exclusively. The biggest limit on her creative influence is the showrunner. Chernuchin and especially Leight have strong track records and influence on their own and pushed back a bit. Without that we find that it's all Benson all the time. As far as budget is concerned - budgets are not really her concern and don't seem to interest her except in being the highest paid actress on network television. Which is one of the few real limits to her influence - budgets get tighter and her salary keeps rising which meant for example KG had to go even if Mariska wanted her to stay.  Dick Wolf is not going to spend his own money to keep Mariska happy. Which is one reason that no matter what we will not see a significant decrease in her screen time. She simply gets paid too much to sit on the bench (insert Mets joke here) and they don't really have any alternative unless Meloni ends up free...

Very good analysis!!

[Olis93]

Up to season 15 of my rewatch and I still maintain the William Lewis arc has some of the best acting to come out of the series. Pablo Schreiber and Mariska Hargitay give it their all and work incredibly well together. One of the few highlights of an otherwise mediocre season 15. 

[Xeliou66]

26 minutes ago, Olis93 said:

Up to season 15 of my rewatch and I still maintain the William Lewis arc has some of the best acting to come out of the series. Pablo Schreiber and Mariska Hargitay give it their all and work incredibly well together. One of the few highlights of an otherwise mediocre season 15. 

It was well acted I agree - I’m usually very critical of Mariska but she acted well in those scenes - she used to be a lot better IMO, it seems like her acting went downhill when they started portraying Benson as a holy figure, now she just makes the same over dramatic facial expressions and speaks in the same intense whisper. She used to be a lot better IMO, I don’t know if she just got complacent or her ego got too big or what.   
I could’ve done without Lewis escaping the final time - it would’ve been a better arc if they had just put him in prison, his final escape sort of made him a super villain and those characters annoy me. Lewis was compelling up until then and the actor played him well.
I don’t dislike the storyline as much as others do, but I feel like season 15 is when the show went downhill - MH became a producer around then, and Cragen and Munch left, and we started getting the all Benson all the time soap opera, with a side dose of Amaro and Rollins drama. I thought about quitting the show the end of season 15 was so bad, Carisi’s introduction at the start of season 16 gave the show some life and an interesting new character and him along with Barba and Fin are why I kept watching, and seasons 16 and particularly 17 were actually improvements over season 15 although they had plenty of flaws. Season 18 is when the show really went down the crapper into nonstop Benson worship, and while there have been good moments and episodes in the seasons since then, the St O worship has kept the show down. This season the worship of Benson seems to be at an all time high - it’s making the show damn near unbearable now, which is a shame as they have a strong supporting cast beyond Benson - Fin is still the anchor of the show, Bruno is awesome, Velasco is good, Sykes and Curry have potential even if it’s ridiculous they made lateral moves to work for St O, and Carisi is just as good of a prosecutor as he was a detective. However the characters not named Benson get very little focus - Mariska’s ego and her hogging the spotlight is sinking the show. 

[Olis93]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

It was well acted I agree - I’m usually very critical of Mariska but she acted well in those scenes - she used to be a lot better IMO, it seems like her acting went downhill when they started portraying Benson as a holy figure, now she just makes the same over dramatic facial expressions and speaks in the same intense whisper. She used to be a lot better IMO, I don’t know if she just got complacent or her ego got too big or what.   
I could’ve done without Lewis escaping the final time - it would’ve been a better arc if they had just put him in prison, his final escape sort of made him a super villain and those characters annoy me. Lewis was compelling up until then and the actor played him well.
I don’t dislike the storyline as much as others do, but I feel like season 15 is when the show went downhill - MH became a producer around then, and Cragen and Munch left, and we started getting the all Benson all the time soap opera, with a side dose of Amaro and Rollins drama. I thought about quitting the show the end of season 15 was so bad, Carisi’s introduction at the start of season 16 gave the show some life and an interesting new character and him along with Barba and Fin are why I kept watching, and seasons 16 and particularly 17 were actually improvements over season 15 although they had plenty of flaws. Season 18 is when the show really went down the crapper into nonstop Benson worship, and while there have been good moments and episodes in the seasons since then, the St O worship has kept the show down. This season the worship of Benson seems to be at an all time high - it’s making the show damn near unbearable now, which is a shame as they have a strong supporting cast beyond Benson - Fin is still the anchor of the show, Bruno is awesome, Velasco is good, Sykes and Curry have potential even if it’s ridiculous they made lateral moves to work for St O, and Carisi is just as good of a prosecutor as he was a detective. However the characters not named Benson get very little focus - Mariska’s ego and her hogging the spotlight is sinking the show. 

The Lewis arc in hindsight was the start of Benson taking over the show and it really hurt her character.

The show progressively declined after the Stabler years. Seasons 13-17 we're more hit and miss but still had some great episodes and storylines. Season 18 was pretty rough and I tend to skip most of those episodes on rewatch. I do enjoy season 19 though and think it's the last decent season before it really goes down the crapper in season 20 and beyond. The show is not even a shell of its former self anymore.  

[Xeliou66]

On 4/23/2024 at 6:58 AM, Olis93 said:

The Lewis arc in hindsight was the start of Benson taking over the show and it really hurt her character.

The show progressively declined after the Stabler years. Seasons 13-17 we're more hit and miss but still had some great episodes and storylines. Season 18 was pretty rough and I tend to skip most of those episodes on rewatch. I do enjoy season 19 though and think it's the last decent season before it really goes down the crapper in season 20 and beyond. The show is not even a shell of its former self anymore.  

I have the unpopular opinion that seasons 13-14 were actually better than most of the last 2-3 Stabler years - the last 2-3 Stabler years were all about ridiculous over the top plots and having a ton of twists in the episode, and Stabler/Benson were basically the only characters - Munch barely appeared and Fin, Cragen and everyone else had reduced roles.  
In season 13, the show had much improved plots for the most part, less over the top ridiculous crap and more balanced screen time for everyone - I thought season 13 was kind of a bounce back season, 14 was mostly good as well, and then the show went downhill when Cragen/Munch left in season 15 and it became all about Benson. The second half of season 15 was pretty dismal, and if it wasn’t for Carisi adding a spark when he joined in 16 I might’ve quit watching. Season 17 was actually pretty good - there were a lot of interesting cases and while Benson was front and center she was more tolerable and the rest of the cast was good - wish they hadn’t killed off Dodds Jr, he was interesting and should’ve been kept alive so they could possibly bring him back. Season 18 was the beginning of the complete downfall of SVU - a season of mostly St O worship and weak cases. Seasons 19-20 were somewhat better but not that good, then again season 18 was dismal so it’s hard not to be, and bringing Peter Stone in was a good move as it was refreshing to see another “good guy” call out some of Benson’s crap without being made into a monster for it, too bad they castrated him at the end of season 20 just like they castrated Barba before him.  
Season 21 was a disaster, the squad was empty, Carisi became ADA but acted more like a cop still, the DAs office was crapped on constantly, and it was all Benson with a side dose of Rollins drama. Season 22’s first half was actually pretty good, and then the second half was mostly lousy with a lot of Benson worship and melodrama. The starts of season 23 and 24 were both dreadful with the seasons improving in the second half some, and this season has just taken the St O worship to such an all time high that it’s almost unwatchable.

Right now is the closest I’ve come to quitting - I’m not sure if I’ll even watch next season, it’s basically just a hate watch now and I think Mariska’s ego has turned the show into shit. It’s a shame that the writing is so bad and so St O focused now because the supporting characters are actually good but they have no idea how to use them - I mean they use everyone in nothing more than glorified cameos in the last episode but have one or more people missing during more intense cases that would require everyone. Carisi is basically being wasted now as they have no use for legal writing unless it’s to give St O more focus, it’s absurd that an IAB captain and an FBI agent would accept demotions to work for Benson, Velasco gets almost nothing, Fin and Bruno are great but I’m not sure if they’re enough to keep me watching. 

This was a long winded post but yeah the show has gone down the crapper now and the St Olivia worship is so cringe inducing that I don’t know if I can continue. The show only appeals to the die hard Mariska fans now, everyone else can see it’s crapola. The Mothership revival gets a lot of criticism, some of it warranted and it isn’t at the same level of the Mothership’s original run, but even with its flaws it’s a billion times better than SVU, I enjoy most of the Mothership episodes, whereas SVU has become so poorly written this season I almost can’t watch it. I don’t have any interest in OC really, it doesn’t even feel like an L&O show and its storylines are very limited and frequently ridiculous and with it going to Peacock next season I won’t even watch it.

I’m contemplating quitting SVU and just watching the Mothership, the past 2 SVU’s have been so horrible and cringe inducing I almost couldn’t finish them, and if the rest of the season stays that way I’m probably out. 

Edited April 29 by Xeliou66

[Xeliou66]

With Season 25 over I thought it’s time for me to give some analysis of the season

Overall SVU is pretty dismal right now - The Olivia worship reached an all time high this season and has made the show almost unwatchable. 
Really the only positives about this season I can think of are a few of the cases were interesting and had solid investigations (the episodes where Benson wasn’t hogging all of the screentime), the squad room was full, which while it was absurd to have 2 females take demotions to work for St Olivia it was still better than having an empty squad room like they did for a while, and finally Bruno is awesome, best new character since Carisi and pretty much the only character breathing life into the show.  
The negatives outweigh the positives unfortunately - starting with the Benson worship that dominated the season, and the Maddie storyline, which was so awful it almost felt like a parody of modern day SVU.  
Fin is still the anchor of SVU but he didn’t get any focus until the last episode and he was acting way OOC in that one. He is usually the only one who can make Benson scenes tolerable though. 
Velasco is just kind of there, he’s decent but he didn’t get much to do this season. 
They don’t seem to know how to utilize the characters properly, for example they put every character in the episode about Maddie’s kidnapper’s trial, but one or more people are missing in episodes where all hands on deck are needed. 
They especially don’t know how to utilize Carisi, and at the end they seemed to be slipping back into the old cliche of having Carisi act as more cop than lawyer and be caught between SVU and a political hack boss. Ugh. They don’t seem to have any interest in writing legal scenes so they just go with tired cliches for Carisi - very disappointing.

I’m honestly not sure at this point if I’ll even watch it next season - I may just stick with the Mothership and abandon SVU. I don’t know what the cast lineup will look like next season but like I said Bruno is about the only one adding life to this stale show, if Bruno isn’t back then I’m not either, I like Fin and Carisi a lot also but they don’t really know how to use either of them. SVU has clearly run out of steam at the moment and MH’s gigantic ego is preventing the show from improving. 

[Spartan Girl]

Made the mistake of watching the end of “Smoked.” Isn’t funny how Liv took herself to the woodshed over Maddie and certain other cases, but when it came to poor Jenna Fox, Liv doesn’t feel a smidgen of guilt?

Because that time, it really was all her fault.

You’d think the patron saint of all victims would have made sure an emotionally traumatized and grieving teenager was being taken care of or immediately sent her to some kind of counseling, instead of keeping her detailed on every aspect of the case and thinking it was somehow a good idea to let her see all her mother’s killers in lockup. Even if Jenna didn’t get that gun, anyone with half a brain would have seen that it wasn’t a good idea or going to give Jenna any kind of closure.

Liv created the situation that led to the shooting, and Sister Peg and Jenna’s deaths. But come next season, Liv just dismisses Jenna’s death as a good shooting, no guilt on her part whatsoever.

I would have loved if it the writers had made that the reason why Stabler had ghosted her for all those years: because he blamed her for it as much as he blamed himself. It would have been a great slap-in-the-face for St. Olivia after she sanctimoniously made Stabler’s leaving all about how abandoned she felt. Never mind all the guilt and trauma he was going through for being forced to shoot an armed child.

Edited June 2 by Spartan Girl

[balmz]

 

this basically sums up how stabler handled questioning/interrogating  people especially in later seasons

[Rodney]

Seems the mods combined the "Worst Children," "Perps You Sympathized With," "Victims You Had No Sympathy For," and other threads together.  So in light of that, I have a perp with whom I sympathized . . . a little.  I've been bingeing the series on Peacock over the last few weeks, starting with season four, and am currently on season twelve.  (Time really flies!)

Anyway, I just finished watching "Flight," and I felt at least somewhat sorry for Dahlia Jessup, the "on-and-off girlfriend" of the perp, Jordan Hayes.  It was clear that she was brainwashed into bringing more and more victims into his massage room after initially being one of his victims herself.  That said, it's probably because of how she acted toward Elliot and Olivia, but my sympathy only stopped at her background and circumstances.

I don't know whether or not we were supposed to feel for her basically being abandoned by Jordan at the end of the episode, what with the implication that she was facing at least eighty years for all of the girls that she helped him rape while it sounded like he was essentially going to a federal minimum security prison.  I felt like I should've felt sympathy for her when the realization of what Olivia was trying to tell her finally hit her, but for some reason, I felt less than I should have.  I don't know.

I know that this thread hasn't been picked up for a long time, but I thought that I might as well bite and see who remembers any of the older episodes.

[Rodney]

On 5/9/2020 at 7:15 PM, Xeliou66 said:

For the most part, Stuckey was beyond irritating and I didn’t think SVU treated him unfairly, he was an obnoxious douche, the only time I felt that he was treated unfairly was when Stabler assaulted him in his final appearance, and Cragen dismissed it - Stabler was an asshole who bullied almost everyone by that point in the show and Cragen should’ve reprimanded him and I found it OOC on Cragen’s part not to reprimand Stabler. Stabler had become totally unlikable by that point, he was okay in the earlier seasons when there was more depth to the character but by this point he had become just a ball of rage and a self righteous dick, it’s why I’m not excited to see the character return, and I don’t get why some people love the character so much (I think it’s because a lot of female viewers find Stabler attractive so they ignore his bad behavior).

It’s been a long time since I’ve seen those episodes because I hated that storyline, it’s probably my least favorite storyline in SVU history, it was so ridiculous and comical, Stuckey was just cringeworthy and they killed off O’Halloran who was an awesome character. So I usually skip those episodes.

On 5/9/2020 at 6:06 PM, balmz said:

from a thread on reddit, people were asking if svu were bullies or jerks to the dale stucky character, your personal feelings about the character aside, do you think they were unfair to him?

 

also from tv tropes about the character

 

Though he could be annoying and ultimately became a spree killer, Dale Stuckey did have moments when the abuse heaped on him seemed greatly disproportionate such as when he explained how a teen used spoofing to threaten another girl only for O'Halloran to dismiss it as Stuckey wasting their time or in his final appearance when Stabler physically assaulted him, Stuckey demanded that Cragen write Stabler up for it, and Cragen outright told him that Stuckey's completely valid complaint which would have gotten a real life detective fired or even brought up on charges wasn't worth the trouble.

Stuckey who, despite his tendency to annoy everyone, at times seemed to be a bullying target for the entire SVU department. Quite a few fans were cheering for him when he attempted to torture and kill Stabler, especially since Stabler had physically assaulted him earlier in the episode.

On 5/10/2020 at 7:04 AM, Route66 said:

The thing is, everyone in adulthood has coworkers they don't like. You don't get to just behave in an obnoxious and unprofessional manner towards them. If they believed Stuckey was incompetent, there were channels for it.

I watched season ten some time ago, and my take on Stuckey was that while he could be a bit much -- okay, a lot -- at least he was glad to be there and eager to do his job.  And I did feel for him in season ten's finale, because the whole squad, practically, treated him like he made a real crime against humanity.  Like none of them had ever made mistakes?  Only Olivia seemed to remember that he was a person and treated him as such by reassuring him that it wasn't the end of the world because he made a mistake.  That was why he didn't want her harmed in the end.

Also, I was among the ones who was a least a little bit pleased to see him torture Elliot, because someone was finally giving back to him what he'd dished out to others, if only for a moment.

And while I did like O'Halloran, I can't really feel too bad for him since he was the other main reason that Stuckey snapped.  You chastise someone enough that they snap, you can't get much sympathy when they retaliate.  He kind of created his own monster there.

On 7/21/2021 at 11:48 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Pornstar’s Requiem today and this episode is one of the most infuriating in SVU’s history - Judge Briggs is a ***********, he threw out the verdict just because he didn’t like that the victim had starred in porn videos and because the rapist was a clean cut, privileged “good kid”, he had no legal basis for throwing out the guilty verdict, he’s just a sack of crap - unfortunately there are a lot of power hungry, biased judges out there like him. Barba was right to yell at him and if I were in Barba’s place I think I would’ve gotten held in contempt.

There's another such judge like that -- Judge Tate or Taft in season five's "Poison."  Let off a mother who was clearly poisoning her children to death just because she came from a good home and family, while letting another mother rot in prison for ten years for a poisoning that she didn't commit because she came from nothing.  It's a good Casey-centric episode if you liked her.  Diane Neal was excellent in it.

But yeah, I've hoped for years that that case would be picked back up, even ten seasons later.  If there's anything that should get a good sense of closure, "Pornstar's Requiem" is it.

Edited November 15 by Rodney

[Xeliou66]

Oh yes that judge was rotten in Poison in season 5, a total asshat with a major bias, at least he faced some consequences at the end for his atrocious rulings. Judge Briggs in Pornstar’s Requiem didn’t. I’m not sure how they could bring the case back unless the rapist who got away with it raped again - which is definitely a strong possibility given that he got away with his first rape and was sadistic and smug. Maybe if he got in legal trouble again after committing another assault there would be enough backlash against Briggs for setting him free to force Briggs off the bench. That episode’s ending was downright infuriating.

As for Stuckey, that storyline was just stupid and ridiculous, it was right at the end of SVU being a ridiculous show (same season as the infamous “so ridiculous it’s good” monkeys in basketballs episode). Stuckey was massively annoying and made the show hard to watch, and I hated how they didn’t even address O’Halloran’s death, it would’ve been nice just to have a single line from someone either in that episode or the next one mourning him.  
But I also kind of enjoyed seeing Stuckey give Stabler a dose of his own medicine since Stabler repeatedly roughed people up - I really dislike Stabler much of the time, he’s just not mentally fit to be a cop, and the only thing that makes Stabler more bearable than modern day St Olivia is that people don’t act like Stabler is perfect and he does get called out for his flaws. But back before Benson gained Sainthood status, when she was a detective, I liked her better than Stabler usually, Stabler was just hard to stomach, and I hate that the show brought Stabler back just to have him inevitably hook up with St O, this show shouldn’t be a romance show or a soap opera, so shame on the writers for bowing to the “shippers” who are loud online but are not the majority of the fans. 

[Rodney]

Since this thread absorbed the "Perps You Felt Sorry For" thread (I don't get why all of those threads got condensed into one thread like that when they were all better off being left alone), I'm going to say that I felt so terrible for Andrew Hingham in "Conned."  Among the sexual abuse that he suffered from Dr. Stanton, his own shrink, getting committed to get him away from his girlfriend, Mallory, because said shrink was jealous of her, the drugs that he'd been getting shoveled down his throat, and nearly being raped by his supposed "friend," Jack Robinson, the poor kid was a ticking time bomb that finally exploded.

On the flip side, Dr. Stanton was one of the sickest doctors I'd ever seen on SVU.  Like . . . seriously.  Ally Walker really sold how creepily unstable even she was by the end.

Edited December 14 by Rodney

[Xeliou66]

43 minutes ago, Rodney said:

Since this thread absorbed the "Perps You Felt Sorry For" thread (I don't get why all of those threads got condensed into one thread like that when they were all better off being left alone), I'm going to say that I felt so terrible for Andrew Bingham in "Conned."  Among the sexual abuse that he suffered from Dr. Stanton, his own shrink, getting committed to get him away from his girlfriend, Mallory, because said shrink was jealous of her, the drugs that he'd been getting shoveled down his throat, and nearly being raped by his supposed "friend," Jack Robinson, the poor kid was a ticking time bomb that finally exploded.

On the flip side, Dr. Stanton was one of the sickest doctors I'd ever seen on SVU.  Like . . . seriously.  Ally Walker really sold how creepily unstable even she was by the end.

Oh yes Andrew was extremely sympathetic, but he wasn’t a perp really, he killed in self defense and the shrink framed him for rape and then had him institutionalized so she could continue to have sex with him. He was a victim of his shrink. That shrink was such a sicko creep. I was very glad she got a lengthy prison sentence. 
That’s a good episode, one of the best from the later Stabler seasons when everything felt over the top and ridiculous, but that’s a strong episode, maybe because Stabler/Benson took a backseat to Fin/Munch/Cragen/Huang. 

[Rodney]

1 minute ago, Xeliou66 said:

That shrink was such a sicko creep. I was very glad she got a lengthy prison sentence. 
That’s a good episode, one of the best from the later Stabler seasons when everything felt over the top and ridiculous, but that’s a strong episode, maybe because Stabler/Benson took a backseat to Fin/Munch/Cragen/Huang. 

"Andrew is a man.  He's my soulmate."  Just the very delivery of that made me cringe.  God, what a sicko.  But twenty years wasn't nearly enough for me.  With five years per count, I'm shocked that it implied that they'd only had sex four times.  Andrew made it sound like more.

I was still confused as to how Elliot and Olivia got thrown off that case, though, when the mixup wasn't even their fault.  But yeah, I was glad to see the rest of the cast get their time to shine in that episode.  Though Olivia did pop back up again in the final act, though in that case, her presence was needed to get through to Andrew that he was being molested in a way that I doubt that Fin would've been able to.

[Xeliou66]

3 minutes ago, Rodney said:

"Andrew is a man.  He's my soulmate."  Just the very delivery of that made me cringe.  God, what a sicko.  But twenty years wasn't nearly enough for me.  With five years per count, I'm shocked that it implied that they'd only had sex four times.  Andrew made it sound like more.

I was still confused as to how Elliot and Olivia got thrown off that case, though, when the mixup wasn't even their fault.  But yeah, I was glad to see the rest of the cast get their time to shine in that episode.  Though Olivia did pop back up again in the final act, though in that case, her presence was needed to get through to Andrew that he was being molested in a way that I doubt that Fin would've been able to.

Yeah she was an extremely sick perp, very creepy. 
Yeah the mixup wasn’t SVUs fault, the detectives really didn’t do anything wrong here, but I I was glad to get an episode where the others got more screen time - in the last few Stabler seasons it was almost all Elliot and Olivia, all the time, and the others didn’t get a chance to shine much. 

[Rodney]

36 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah she was an extremely sick perp, very creepy.

Not to dwell on her, but the first red flag that something was off with her was her reaction to Mallory showing up at the station and talking to Cragen.  Like . . . why would she care about Andrew's girlfriend being there?  I can see how the characters would've missed that, but as a viewer, that really stuck out as odd.  Huang figuring out that Stanton was the one who'd (falsely) reported Andrew for rape should've been his red flag, for as intelligent as he generally is.  That sure was for me.  Finding out that she'd moved Andrew in with her after bailing him out was the big "oh, shit!" moment for me.

. . . And then, the baby cried, and I literally said, "Oh, dear God, no!" even before Fin brought up the possibility of Andrew being the dad.

But yes.  Very well-crafted episode.  Kept me on my toes.  Slowly becoming my favorite of season eleven, actually.

Edited December 14 by Rodney

[Xeliou66]

18 minutes ago, Rodney said:

Not to dwell on her, but the first red flag that something was off with her was her reaction to Mallory showing up at the station and talking to Cragen.  Like . . . why would she care about Andrew's girlfriend being there?  I can see how the characters would've missed that, but as a viewer, that really stuck out as odd.  Huang figuring out that Stanton was the one who'd (falsely) reported Andrew for rape should've been his red flag, for as intelligent as he generally is.  That sure was for me.  Finding out that she'd move Andrew in with her after bailing him out was the big "oh, shit!" moment for me.

. . . And then, the baby cried, and I literally said, "Oh, dear God, no!" even before Fin brought up the possibility of Andrew being the dad.

But yes.  Very well-crafted episode.  Kept me on my toes.  Slowly becoming my favorite of season eleven, actually.

It might be my favorite of season 11 as well, because like I say I don’t care for a lot of episodes from seasons 9-12, and some of the ones I find entertaining just because they are so over the top (such as the monkey in basketball case). Conned is an example of an actual strong case that played out well. And yeah there were red flags for the shrink all around, good points you make.