Online Dating: Swiping Right Or Left?

[aradia22]

Update on the week...

Started talking with someone last night. We've got a date set up tomorrow night. First he suggested a very divey/kitschy looking place all the way out in Queens. Then he switched to a pub in midtown. I'm not expecting much but we'll see.

Wednesday date (who was very cute) cancelled on me because of work. Hopefully we'll reschedule but I don't have very high hopes with the way things have gone in the past.

Saturday museum date with the nerdy guy still on as far as I know though we haven't been talking. He just cancelled. 

I will also be seeing Mr. Lawyer Saturday night to see a show. 

Side note... a lot of lawyers lately. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by aradia22

[aradia22]

Date report... I haven't been feeling so great today so I thought about cancelling. (Like, legitimate illness.) But I left it too late to where I'd actually be standing him up so I forced myself to get dressed and slap on some makeup and run out the door. As I said, I wasn't expecting much when he suggested two bars but it ended up being totally nice and normal. Though the bar was a little loud for having a conversation in your normal speaking voice. It was a sports bar that seemed to be an after work hangout and while we were a table booth, the bar was very close so we picked up all that noise. I didn't stay for long, which is atypical for me but I wanted to catch the train. It was about an hour and a half counting the walk to the train. 

I shall call him The Soldier. I give guys nicknames based on my impression after the date. He brought up his Army service a lot... which made sense later into the date when he told me he'd just come back from Afghanistan a year ago. Right now he's a lawyer. There's not a lot to get into since the date was kind of short. We got on this long digression about politics that I kept trying to get away from. But he seems relatively liberal so that's good. He's anti-Trump, didn't balk when I brought up my gay friend or thinking about volunteering with Planned Parenthood, etc. Very early into the date he told me I was smart. I think maybe he was surprised at the way I talk. Later he told me I was his first okc date. He likes jazz. He's a writer. Plenty of things to latch onto and admire. 

For a first date, it went well and I'd see him again. OK, here's the issue. He's 7 years older than I am. Which is the top cut off range for me but not a dealbreaker. The thing is... he's an adult. And I'm not. I don't mean in the way Mr. Makeout wanted to be physically intimate very quickly. He gave me a perfectly respectable hug hello and quick kiss goodbye. But he's settled and responsible and disciplined. He has a stable job. He's been in the army. I feel like we're at very different points of our lives. He was very confident about asking me out and trying to confirm a second date and paying me compliments. There was no hesitation. He seems like he's goes after what he wants. I'm not sure that should be me. I think he might do better with someone closer to his age who has her life figured out. 

Again, it was a short date. I felt no fluttery feelings. He's relatively attractive. Very fit. Nice smile. Not dreamy or anything but sure, not revolting. I didn't feel anxious about the date afterwards. But maybe that's because unlike with the guys where I'm debating if I can make it work, I already know that we don't have a future. 

[theredhead77]

@aradia22 - forgive the bluntness but you seem to find fault with every single person you go on a date with. Too short, date isn't something you would prefer to do, bad kisser, too inquisitive, and on and on and on. A second date is not a marriage proposal and frankly, a man who is direct and has his life together is very hard to find. Perhaps you just aren't in the right place in your life for a relationship and should take a break.

[JTMacc99]

Different life stages is definitely something to consider. It's one of my thoughts about age. I'm not really concerned about how old somebody is right now. I'm concerned about where they are in their life and how it fits with mine, but that's largely because I'm in the middle of raising a couple of children.  Not a lot of wiggle room for me. It is what I am doing right now, and I can't really change that.

Having said that,

10 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

and frankly, a man who is direct and has his life together is very hard to find.

this is an excellent point.

I'd explore a little more time with him, see what else clicks with you two, and be open to the possibility that you can be with somebody who has his shit together while you are still working on yours. (Says the guy who gets himself in all sorts of trouble because he thinks he can help people who are struggling with life's problems.) 

[DeLurker]

11 hours ago, aradia22 said:

But maybe that's because unlike with the guys where I'm debating if I can make it work, I already know that we don't have a future. 

Is it possible that because some things in your life are not as defined as you like (or how family/friends/society think they should be), that your perception that he's got it all together and figured out that makes you a bit uncomfortable?  Back when I was still a flake (not saying you are - but I definitely was), a guy who seemed like they were more stable scared the hell out of me.  And he's 7 years older than you - so I would suspect that he's not going to be harsh in judging you that you aren't in the same place as he is.  Maybe he sees that position as something enviable - to still be at a point where you have flexibility and choices you can make.

Because just like the rest of us, he's probably not as "settled and responsible and disciplined" as he presents on a first date.  He might just have better armor than most.  If he's been in the Army, been to Afghanistan and is a lawyer - all are going to train you to cover your soft side.

On top of that, you weren't feeling your best at the time you had the date.

If you are taking an Opinion Poll, I say give it another shot.

[roseslg]

It's a blessing (at least in my mind) to find someone who at least has their act together and know what they want.  NYC is filled with so many who are in a state of arrested development that it is refreshing to meet someone who won't beat around the bush and keep you guessing about their interest and how they feel.   I think you would be doing yourself a disservice if you don't give this guy an honest try.   As the song says, sometimes you don't get what you want, but what you actually need.   7 years is not that bad.  Men usually mature slower, so it should equal the same.   Sometimes it's good to let go of the preconceived notions of what you think you want and just be open to things not working out as planned.  My husband and I (we met on OKC), are not really each other's "types", he's 4 years younger than I am, sometimes we drive each other crazy, but we don't want to do that with anyone else.   Take a chance. 

[aradia22]

With three cancellations this week, I'm left to my own devices. Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I'm going to try and go into the second date with an open mind. For the rest of this week though I think I'm going to take some personal time. Maybe do some reading. 

[JTMacc99]

Good for you @aradia22!  

2 hours ago, roseslg said:

not that bad.  Men usually mature slower, so it should equal the same.

Also my feeling about people who spent time in the military is that you can almost subtract the time served to get their civilian age.

Oh, and on a personal note, fingers crossed for the snow to be done in time for me to get together with my new friend after work on Thursday. I think it's supposed to be a Wednesday night into Thursday morning thing.  

Edited February 7, 2017 by JTMacc99

[aradia22]

Quote

Hey, I'm looking for a beautiful woman to be my friend and lover. Im sexually open to almost anything. My passion is to give oral, i can go for hours straight and do anything to please you. I really enjoy making a woman happy. It's the biggest turn on for me. So I'm looking for the right candidate. You look really nice and id love to get to know you better.

Oh, boy. This is not from any of the guys I've mentioned so far. I don't know how it got past the filter. Well, I mean I guess there are no words that would get it flagged. Though the photos are highly... questionable. Usually I only see that kind of thing when I choose to moderate. 

[theredhead77]

9 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

Oh, and on a personal note, fingers crossed for the snow to be done in time for me to get together with my new friend after work on Thursday. I think it's supposed to be a Wednesday night into Thursday morning thing.  

The date or the snow? *weg*

[possibilities]

On 2/4/2017 at 10:47 PM, aradia22 said:

How do I get him to kiss me the way I want him to?

I would try telling him using your words what you do want and what you wish he'd stop doing. He didn't take the "show him" info. in, so maybe he needs to be told. I'm not sure if it will be enough with this particular guy, since you seem to have personality and value clashes that are fairly significant, but in general, I've found there are people who respond to words sometimes, who don't get it when something is being demonstrated.

RE the date with the guy who seems to have it all together, I thought it sounded terrific until you got to the end and declared you had no future. That sounded like insecurity, to me. He wants to see you a second time. You had a good time even though you weren't feeling well, and were able to talk about difficult topics without it going off the rails. Maybe he'll decide you don't have it together, but don't decide that for him! And, as others have said: it was only the first date, it was only a very short date besides that, and nothing happened that was obviously a dealbreaker. More pros than cons, and nothing definitive yet.

I can also say that from my own personal experiences and observations of other people around me, sometimes the instant fireworks relationships burn hard but die off just as fast and leave wreckage in their wake, while a more slow to build connection sometimes has more staying power and lasting intensity. Sometimes instant connections do pan out and slow burns fizzle. But not always. Sometimes it's the opposite. So I'd give things more time before reaching any firm conclusions.

[aradia22]

I've brought this up before when it comes to profiles... now it's a matter of messages. I feel like when things are slow, I'm more likely to brush things aside or make excuses because I want to engage with somebody. Like... well, it's only casual misogyny. Or, just because that message is objectifying or patronizing, maybe he's not a horrible person and I should give him a chance. And I know the difference between those things and flirting. The rational part of my brain says no, they're saying these things to put you in your place and/or make you feel small. It's like negging without the brazenness of the insult. And yet... I don't delete the messages outright like I should.

[ari333]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 8:58 AM, JTMacc99 said:

Block him and move on. 

THIS^^^^^^. been there. Don't torture yourself.

[ari333]

On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:49 PM, aradia22 said:

I've brought this up before when it comes to profiles... now it's a matter of messages. I feel like when things are slow, I'm more likely to brush things aside or make excuses because I want to engage with somebody. Like... well, it's only casual misogyny. Or, just because that message is objectifying or patronizing, maybe he's not a horrible person and I should give him a chance. And I know the difference between those things and flirting. The rational part of my brain says no, they're saying these things to put you in your place and/or make you feel small. It's like negging without the brazenness of the insult. And yet... I don't delete the messages outright like I should.

May I give you a story of a BIG RED FLAG in my life dating yrs ago that I wish I had seen?

I feel you I so so so feel you. I'm old. I'm in a happy relationship for 7 yrs for the time being , but I had some dating hell stories let me tell you. First. TRUST YOUR INSTINCT.

Here's one. Years ago I was just divorced and trying the dating scene . I met a man  who was cute and normal and "nice". I was cautious . ON the second date it was going to be dinner IN. I preferred his home to mine bc I was still being cautious and I wanted to drive to is place rather than him picking me up and knowing my address.I know that sounds cray, but I was just being cautious.  He was handsome, polite...manners the whole thing was great. I drove to his place.I knocked on the door .The first red flag was that he did notanswer the door.He called out. "hey (my name) the door is unlocked; come on in" I thought that was a little weird since we barely knew each other or not well yet...

That's not the bad part. I opened the door. He was sitting on  a couch looking at the tv on the other side of the room. He turned his face to look at me and I got a chill that should have sent me running. I rue the day that I did not listen to my own instincts. He turned and looked at me and the hair on my neck stood up. I SHOULD HAVE LEFT.But no, I thought I was being silly. Always trust your instincts

[aradia22]

Update... I have a busy week/week and a half of doing my own thing for a while. Carrying on some conversations on okc but nothing too exciting. Lots of small talk. 

I also made two new in-person lady friends. At two different events, one on Friday and one on Monday. I'm nice... sort of. People like me. I start conversations and make a decent number of friends out in the wild... they're just never with eligible straight men around my age. So... back to okc. 

[ari333]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

Update... I have a busy week/week and a half of doing my own thing for a while. Carrying on some conversations on okc but nothing too exciting. Lots of small talk. 

I also made two new in-person lady friends. At two different events, one on Friday and one on Monday. I'm nice... sort of. People like me. I start conversations and make a decent number of friends out in the wild... they're just never with eligible straight men around my age. So... back to okc. 

You seem great and I hope things go well for you. The weird thing that happened for me is peculiar, but it worked out fine and has lasted 7 yrs so far. Anyway..... I tried that Match thing. Good grief , the whole thing was exhausting. I finally said, "god... universe... whoever is out there...please send someone to me bc clearly I cant pick one or pick a good one HELP!!"

This sounds like a lame weird story,but this man  made  a delivery to my home. Things happened. We have been happy for 7 yrs together. The universe or whatever literally delivered him to me.  I know.... lame story, but stuff happens and sometimes you have to roll with it.

[ari333]

I was totally hooked when I saw his smile and shiny eyes.

[DeLurker]

10 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I start conversations and make a decent number of friends out in the wild... they're just never with eligible straight men around my age.

While I did not start conversations much, I did acquire several friends while out and about and somehow specialized in the non-straight men.  I seemed to attract the attention of guys when they were actually on a date. 

[theredhead77]

Yes, I am a 39 y/o woman who has two cats, because cats are my pet of choice. I kill cacti and plants because they don't remind me they are hungry. If you make it to your 30s and can't keep something else alive (pet, plants, person) you should re-evaluate your choices.

[ari333]

Back when I was single I met a man who was good looking, great body, seemed decent. I trusted him enough to give him my address so he could pick me up  at my home for a date.. This was before everyone had cell phones. Anyway, he was 3 hours late. Needless to say  I was not going anywhere with him; but I did open the door to say, "Was there an emergency? It's 11 pm and you said you'd be here at 8."He said (and I still laugh when I think about ) (And as an added tidbit he was drunk.) He said, "Um... I was at a titty bar." I called him a cab bc I didn't want him to go out driving and kill someone.

My boyfriend and I still say that to each other when either of us is a little late for something heheheh. "I was at a titty bar." heh

[aradia22]

Curiously okc is loading very slowly tonight... both on my laptop and my phone. Too much traffic with people feeling lonely (or having had terrible dates) on Valentine's Day?

[JTMacc99]

16 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Curiously okc is loading very slowly tonight... both on my laptop and my phone. Too much traffic with people feeling lonely (or having had terrible dates) on Valentine's Day?

It's certainly possible. A lot of people want to get back in the game after that"holiday".

I've got a four day weekend with my kids, broken up nicely with a first date on Sunday. Looking forward to it. 

[aradia22]

okc is still not loading for me.

Meanwhile the nice nerdy guy I was supposed to go out with but then he cancelled... just texted saying he's too busy with school and health issues to be dating right now. See, this I don't have a problem with. Just don't cancel the day before and only because I sent you a message first. I sent him a text back wishing him luck with everything. We didn't talk a lot but he seems smart and friendly. This was the guy who I sent that long first message to. I kind of wanted to suggest staying in touch and being friends but with everything that seems to be going on with him I thought that might be more stressful. And now to wait for okc to be up and running again...

[ari333]

48 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

okc is still not loading for me.

Meanwhile the nice nerdy guy I was supposed to go out with but then he cancelled... just texted saying he's too busy with school and health issues to be dating right now. See, this I don't have a problem with. Just don't cancel the day before and only because I sent you a message first. I sent him a text back wishing him luck with everything. We didn't talk a lot but he seems smart and friendly. This was the guy who I sent that long first message to. I kind of wanted to suggest staying in touch and being friends but with everything that seems to be going on with him I thought that might be more stressful. And now to wait for okc to be up and running again...

BBM (Bold By Me)

Aradia , I feel you. Don't contact this man again (my 2 cents.) I've been there. I'm old. I've been around .. I've made mistakes. Don't contact him. (imo) Friendly advice from an old (ish) lady. :-)

There is someone out there for you. Keep looking

Edited February 17, 2017 by ari333

[JTMacc99]

It's okay to have no idea what to wear for a first date, right? And this is coming from someone who has done nothing but buy new clothes for the last nine months. 

On the one hand, I have a bunch of cool new stuff I could wear, but on the other I could just go with what I'm comfortable wearing. Maybe first meeting should be "this is who I am", or maybe it should be an opportunity to try something new. 

[aradia22]

I would guess it's pretty easy for guys who aren't concerned with being too stylish (e.g. graphic tee, leather jacket, weird hat... or whatever the hipster uniform is now). For younger guys, a button down. For older guys, maybe throw a sweater over it? Nice slacks and shoes and you're done. Or, if you're coming from work and one of the many lawyers and finance bros in NY... you're probably already in a suit, which always works. As long as you look somewhat presentable (not jeans and a T-shirt) I don't think she'll notice. I don't. Most of the time, I could not tell you what color shirt my date was wearing an hour after I get home.  

[JTMacc99]

I don't even own a suit that fits. Heh. 

It's an early Sunday evening tapas and sangria thing, so I'm thinking dressing up a pair of dark jeans with a button down and a sweater, nice shoes and socks. 

[DeLurker]

I'd go with mixing something tried & true with some of the newer items.  If you've got eye color that some colors compliment more, I'd consider that when picking the shirt or sweater.

[Splishy Splashy]

I just don't think I could ever get into online dating. I am just to much of an in person intimate person. Perhaps it works for others and that is all cool, but I will still to meeting guys in person.

[JTMacc99]

1 hour ago, DeLurker said:

I'd go with mixing something tried & true with some of the newer items.  If you've got eye color that some colors compliment more, I'd consider that when picking the shirt or sweater.

Get out of my head. That's exactly where I ended up. The JC Penny sweater that matches my eyes, dark jeans, dressed up with some of the new stuff. 

[ari333]

16 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

It's okay to have no idea what to wear for a first date, right? And this is coming from someone who has done nothing but buy new clothes for the last nine months. 

On the one hand, I have a bunch of cool new stuff I could wear, but on the other I could just go with what I'm comfortable wearing. Maybe first meeting should be "this is who I am", or maybe it should be an opportunity to try something new. 

 

16 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

It's okay to have no idea what to wear for a first date, right? And this is coming from someone who has done nothing but buy new clothes for the last nine months. 

On the one hand, I have a bunch of cool new stuff I could wear, but on the other I could just go with what I'm comfortable wearing. Maybe first meeting should be "this is who I am", or maybe it should be an opportunity to try something new. 

I'd go with comfortable. You're a man, right? I cant keep everyone straight here in my head and sometimes the screen names don't reveal the gender.

I'm thinking you're a man? (Hoping I got that right)

What about fragrance? A man who smells good with certain smells can make me crazy in the good way. I  know all of that is subjective, but it's my 2 cents.

If you're wearing something called, "Boss"  (IIRC the name) -  I will follow you home. Ok, not really, but it'll get my attention.

Or as Kevin James says, " get my ah-tenn-she-ON." 

Edited February 19, 2017 by ari333

[ari333]

4 hours ago, Splishy Splashy said:

I just don't think I could ever get into online dating. I am just to much of an in person intimate person. Perhaps it works for others and that is all cool, but I will still to meeting guys in person.

I'm much older than you, but I had bad experiences with online dating a few yrs back. . I know it is the in thing to do, but YIKES> The stories I could tell you. And they're not good. Some are hilarious though. :-)

[ari333]

I am kind of shy. I've been in a relationship for 7 yrs now and I'm happy but before that YIKES.

Back in that day, when I got the nerve up to do the online dating I was still skittish. I was messaging and emailing with one dude. I thought I could feel him out (see if he's normal, not a freak) and get to know him via email etc .He got so pushy .He wanted a call. He wanted a meeting in person/date . Blah Blah on and on even though I said that I need to take it slowly. And I just felt hesitant. He seemed super focused on my photos that I had submitted on that site. It just felt too creepy.

Not saying that online dating is bad bc many people have success. I just had some bad experiences. Maybe it was me.

[Splishy Splashy]

29 minutes ago, ari333 said:

I'm much older than you, but I had bad experiences with online dating a few yrs back. . I know it is the in thing to do, but YIKES> The stories I could tell you. And they're not good. Some are hilarious though. :-)

I can only imagine. I am not going to take that chance on a bad experience. Hell there is still a chance to have a bad experience in person. I just think the chances increase online.

[theredhead77]

4 hours ago, Splishy Splashy said:

I just don't think I could ever get into online dating. I am just to much of an in person intimate person. Perhaps it works for others and that is all cool, but I will still to meeting guys in person.

 

5 minutes ago, Splishy Splashy said:

I can only imagine. I am not going to take that chance on a bad experience. Hell there is still a chance to have a bad experience in person. I just think the chances increase online.

From your post in the Case of the Monday's thread it seems you are still in college. You have many opportunities to meet people. Once you graduate (or drop out) and your career / life kicks in full time you'll quickly learn it's much harder to meet someone. Never say never.

4 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

Get out of my head. That's exactly where I ended up. The JC Penny sweater that matches my eyes, dark jeans, dressed up with some of the new stuff. 

Good luck! I can't give you wardrobe advice since CA casual is much more casual than NY casual.

[Splishy Splashy]

10 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

 

From your post in the Case of the Monday's thread it seems you are still in college. You have many opportunities to meet people. Once you graduate (or drop out) and your career / life kicks in full time you'll quickly learn it's much harder to meet someone. Never say never.

Good luck! I can't give you wardrobe advice since CA casual is much more casual than NY casual.

Actually I am a Senior in High School and will be attending College next Fall. I know my life is just beginning. My Parents and Teachers have told me and my friends who have complained so much about the huge amount of homework, studying, hard exams, and other stuff and they just say just wait this is nothing that I have experienced. I understand that, but for my benefit for a kid like myself it is still difficult at times to deal with those things and all the drama that comes with being a teen as well. I guess it never ends though.

[theredhead77]

High School Never Ends (and perhaps this isn't the best subforum for you since it does focus on online dating and the perils of dating once you are removed from the dating pool of school.)

[Splishy Splashy]

The song is great. hey at least those guys became a popular Rock Band. :)

[theredhead77]

Anyone else here experience this interesting situation over on Tinder? I get a message that I have a new match and message. I go look and there is no message, but the match is still there. 

[aradia22]

Quote

Actually I am a Senior in High School and will be attending College next Fall. I know my life is just beginning. My Parents and Teachers have told me and my friends who have complained so much about the huge amount of homework, studying, hard exams, and other stuff and they just say just wait this is nothing that I have experienced. I understand that, but for my benefit for a kid like myself it is still difficult at times to deal with those things and all the drama that comes with being a teen as well. I guess it never ends though.

I did not date until I got out of school so online dating was a good fit for me, especially since most of my interests tend to be gendered or at least attract a disproportionate number of women. If you can find someone in school, that's great, but like @theredhead77 said it's hard once you get out of that dating pool, not that it's ever easy to begin with. 

I had a nice friend date today with my best girlfriend. We talked a little about the guys I've been seeing but not much because I always email her after my dates anyway. She's in a 3 year relationship that might be heading towards marriage and was talking about the struggles there. They've been fighting more lately. I did my best to give advice and suggested couples counseling just to have a neutral party give some pretty basic advice. The talk emphasized to me that when things are right, you don't want to give up on that person. (Though I have some reservations about their relationship, if he makes her happy, then I'm happy for her.) I haven't found that yet. And I'm not willing to compromise in the beginning because I know there will be rough patches and once I'm in, I'm in. Not that anyone ever plans to get divorced but in my mind, I want to be absolutely sure before I make any kind of commitment like that. 

No updates from Mr. Lawyer, Mr. Shorter in Person, or The Soldier. I can't say I'm broken up about it. 

[Splishy Splashy]

I have really only had 1 boyfriend who I started dating when I was a Freshman in High School and he was a Sophomore in High School. We stayed together until this past Summer when he broke up with me just prior to him going away to college. So being that relationship was my first and it was pretty long for someone my age I was pretty devastated for awhile after he left for college. If it weren't for my girlfriends I don't know how I would have made it at first. Now I am fine and decided I was not going to date anyone seriously my Senior Year and wait and see what is in store for me in college.

[JTMacc99]

4 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

High School Never Ends (and perhaps this isn't the best subforum for you since it does focus on online dating and the perils of dating once you are removed from the dating pool of school.)

 

Love those guys! And so true. 

As for me, I had a lovely time. Smarter than me (which is so awesome), seems to be not crazy or a damsel in distress (thank goodness), and all around interesting.

[theredhead77]

6 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

Love those guys! And so true. 

As for me, I had a lovely time. Smarter than me (which is so awesome), seems to be not crazy or a damsel in distress (thank goodness), and all around interesting.

Woohoo! When is your next date?

Edited February 20, 2017 by theredhead77

[JTMacc99]

33 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Woohoo! When is your next date?

Unscheduled but agreed that it will occur. We've both got a lot of stuff on our plates, so no big rush.

But it was nice!

[JTMacc99]

Because this popped into my head today when talking about Tinder:

[ari333]

18 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

Because this popped into my head today when talking about Tinder:

Hee. He's not wrong hehehe. It popped in my head too. ;-)

Edited February 23, 2017 by ari333

[ari333]

UNDATABLE!!!

[Lantern7]

Finally got around to looking up OKCupid. I can do one month for $19.95, three for $14.95 per, and six for $9.95. As much as I want to "get out there" and meet people (re: women), I don't know if I want to spend close to $60, especially in the event I meet and keep somebody right away.

[Moose135]

You can do a bunch on there with a free account.

[Lantern7]

@Moose135 . . . I'm just getting the impression that I can only go so far if I don't put any money into it.