One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Melancholy]

I would agree.  The show left the impression she was trying to finish her community service quickly.  I think you are also right that you can, for example, spend eight hours a day doing things related to your community service, but that does not necessarily mean you get eight hours of credit for that particular day.   

 

Yup. Rory actually complained that she was stiffed out of some hours too, by her supervisors. Maybe she was telling the truth, maybe she wasn't. But I understand court-ordered community service is unbelievably inconvenient and it's a time-suck beyond the hours required to get to the location, adhere to the security protocols, report the hours, etc. 

 

UO: I think Lorelai liked to complain, but she enjoyed Friday Night Dinners when you get down to the basic essentials. Actually, I think the complaining was part of the fun. Lorelai liked the drinks, the banter, the more normal fancy meals, the fancy drah-ma and the OTT stories produced for Stars Hallow consumption for Lorelai to talk a lot about to Sookie or with Rory, poking fun at Richard and Emily and driving them nuts on their own turf, the pre-dinner and post-dinner bitching about E/R, and you know, actually seeing her parents and seeing them interact with Rory as a real genuine family once Lorelai felt safe that she could leave the house at the end of the evening. IMO, Lorelai would keep her separate worlds but she not-so-secretly loved that her parents found her fascinating and eminently desired having her around to manipulate and she'd flip out if she didn't feel that interest in her life (Hammers and Veils, their rebound Friday night party in Keg Max). There were dinners where the fighting or issues were just too intense and THEN, Lorelai didn't enjoy herself- but those were a minority. Lorelai just went far too often after S1-3 when she was no longer forced to do so, from How Many Kropogs... when I can't believe that she threw over an ultimatum to attend ONE dinner with Logan, or after E/R sabotaged the "Go back to Yale intervention", right down arguing with Rory who was saying she didn't want to go to FDN anymore (and I think Rory liked the dinners EVEN MORE  than Lorelai so that snit was temporary too). 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Melancholy

[qtpye]

My UO is really not that deep.  One of the things in the show is the L and R are more like sisters then mother daughter.  In the pilot episode someone I think is shocked that they are mother/daughter.

 

This never worked for me.  If I saw the two actresses in the first season I would never peg them as siblings.  Rant over.

[dustylil]

Rory actually complained that she was stiffed out of some hours too, by her supervisors. Maybe she was telling the truth, maybe she wasn't. But I understand court-ordered community service is unbelievably inconvenient and it's a time-suck beyond the hours required to get to the location, adhere to the security protocols, report the hours, etc

 

Inasmuch as court ordered community service is supposed to be punishment for committing a crime, I find it difficult to work up much sympathy for people required to do it. Especially ones like Rory, who had been convicted of a felony. Perhaps jail time would have been better for her.

 

It was interesting how the whole matter appeared to have been forgotten in Season 7 when Rory was applying for jobs.

[Melancholy]

Inasmuch as court ordered community service is supposed to be punishment for committing a crime, I find it difficult to work up much sympathy for people required to do it. Especially ones like Rory, who had been convicted of a felony. Perhaps jail time would have been better for her.

 

It was interesting how the whole matter appeared to have been forgotten in Season 7 when Rory was applying for jobs.

 

I wasn't discussing Rory's extra hours to work up sympathy for her, just to explain how I can entirely believe her oft-repeated remarks and harried speeches that she was busy from Fight Face to Let Your Balalaikas Ring Out and how the elder Gilmores really didn't have to come up with playdates/book clubs/more charitable outings beyond what Rory was doing in order to meet your standard of doing enough to help Rory get out of her funk. It's a broader discussion than Gilmore Girls- but I CAN feel badly for financially desperate people with obligations to care for children and/or aging parents who were assigned community service for committing a minor crime, and both their sentence and the specifically-designed bullshit of the system with its mean supervisors, long administrative process, inflexible rules hurt people already below the poverty line. However in every which way, that EMPHATICALLY wasn't Rory.

 

I actually did feel badly for Rory to a certain extent for Lorelai rejecting her. Maybe that's an UO. She helped cause it and did her own rejecting of Lorelai, but I had sympathy for her in believing that she couldn't go home unless she was on the collegiate road or when Lorelai didn't come to her court date or learning about Luke/Lorelai's engagement from afar or when she tried to give Lorelai her new cell phone number and Lorelai didn't take it. However, that's it- I didn't sympathize that she had to do a lot of community service or the vagaries of community service or any of her pangs of inferiority that her peers were outpacing her or that she had to deal with Richard and Emily. I think it's because Rory should have entered into those other new arrangements as a 20 year old with her eyes wide-open on the consequences, but I do empathize with how a beloved and adored child assumes that her mother should ALWAYS be there for her and adore her, and it's a huge shock when that's not there anymore. 

 

I wonder why it was never a question of jail-time for Rory- but 20 hours vs. 300 hours of community service. Stealing a yacht is grand theft. I forget, did they ever explain how Rory and Logan were apprehended. I guess the crime is fundamentally different if Rory/Logan were found trespassing onto the yacht but they hadn't driven it away yet but stupidly admitted to the cops that they wanted a joy ride or Rory/Logan drove it a few yards but then returned and parked it vs. if the Coast Guard found them on a stolen yacht out in the water. I think it was the first one-they stepped onto the yacht and probably <ahem> RORY couldn't keep her mouth shut and couldn't pull the Rush Hour II joke, "Oh, this is SOMEONE ELSE'S yacht. Well, THAT'S why my key didn't work. All of these yachts look alike now..." 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

I wasn't discussing Rory's extra hours to work up sympathy for her, just to explain how I can entirely believe her oft-repeated remarks and harried speeches that she was busy from Fight Face to Let Your Balalaikas Ring Out and how the elder Gilmores really didn't have to come up with playdates/book clubs/more charitable outings beyond what Rory was doing in order to meet your standard of doing enough to help Rory get out of her funk.

 

I would agree with Melancholy.  I don't think anyone has suggested that we should feel sympathy for Rory with regards to her community service.  I'm not sure where that comment is coming from. 

[dustylil]

how the elder Gilmores really didn't have to come up with playdates/book clubs/more charitable outings beyond what Rory was doing in order to meet your standard of doing enough to help Rory get out of her funk

 

It was hardly my standard of doing enough. I had no interest in Rory's plight at that point in time. I was merely spit-balling ideas. Given how intrusive the senior Gilmores had been in Rory's life so far, it didn't strike me as utterly outlandish that they would continue to involve themselves in a similar manner.

[shron17]

but I do empathize with how a beloved and adored child assumes that her mother should ALWAYS be there for her and adore her, and it's a huge shock when that's not there anymore.

 

I would agree if Rory had handled the situation differently.  If she had called to let Lorelai know she was going to the grandparents and offered a chance for a calmer discussion it would be different.  While it's true Lorelai told her living at home with a part-time job in the fall wasn't an option, summer had yet to begin. There was plenty of time to make all of these decisions. I think Rory owed it to her mom to let her know what she had decided instead of manipulating Richard into feeling sorry for her so he would give her whatever she wanted,  It was very much a power play--they like me more than they like you and will be on my side.  Sure, Lorelai could have called her too and probably should have instead of going to the Gilmore's, but Rory actually moved into the pool house knowing full well that it would feel like a betrayal to her mother.

Edited January 5, 2016 by shron17

[dustylil]

I would agree if Rory had handled the situation differently.  If she had called to let Lorelai know she was going to the grandparents and offered a chance for a calmer discussion it would be different

 

Or if she had even left a note for her mother. Perhaps including an apology for that snippy remark about Lorelai never having attended college.

Overall though, I rather liked the fact  that - however briefly - Rory faced some consequences for her conduct.

[Melancholy]

It was hardly my standard of doing enough. I had no interest in Rory's plight at that point in time. I was merely spit-balling ideas. Given how intrusive the senior Gilmores had been in Rory's life so far, it didn't strike me as utterly outlandish that they would continue to involve themselves in a similar manner.

It was your standard! You wrote:

I thought he was self-centred, pompous blowhard. He was devoted to his family - as long as its members conformed to his expectations of them. Even with his beloved granddaughter, his do-over Rory, he couldn't stir himself to help her after she

dropped out of Yale - despite his promises. He left everything to Emily - and then criticized her when things didn't turn out as he wanted.

 

And when I said Richard did plenty, you wrote a bunch of stuff he should have done. I disagree. Given how busy Rory was and how busy Richard was, how duplicative some of your suggestions were (community service on top of community service), and how Rory had plenty of structure and plenty of resources to find fulfillment and direction, I think Richard did more than enough. Emily and Richard gave Rory so much when she stayed with them- beautiful little re-decorated house, anything she wanted to buy, fun and interesting temp job, car, valuable connections, loving grandparents available to hang out with her and all too eager to give advice. If it took Rory too long to go back to Yale, it wasn't because E/R didn't do enough for her. If anything, it's because they did too much for her. 

 

Actually, I think my least favorite Rory incident is abandoning E/R without so much as a goodbye, sending Colin and Finn to get her stuff, and then, boycotting them because Emily and Richard expected Rory to live according to their rules while she was living off them and Emily, alone, was getting shrewish and fighty (not even Richard- he didn't even fight with Rory). I know most would say sleeping with Dean or stealing the yacht- but I think Rory basically was out to hurt E/R, as Emily said, despite Rory's faux innocent "by taking money from my father?" bullshit. There's a malice to her actions, and it's against family who loved her as opposed to acquaintance!Lindsay or unknown yacht owners. 

 

 

 

I would agree if Rory had handled the situation differently.  If she had called to let Lorelai know she was going to the grandparents and offered a chance for a calmer discussion it would be different.  But instead she went and manipulated Richard into feeling sorry for her so he would give her whatever she asked for knowing full well how much that would hurt her mother,  It was very much a power play--they like me more than they like you and will be on my side.  Sure, Lorelai could have called her too and probably should have instead of going to the Gilmore's, but what Rory did was much worse IMO.

 

No, I agree Rory screwed up. I still felt empathy for her, though, at "losing" her mother. I go back and forth, though, on whether Rory intentionally manipulated Richard. My inclination is that Rory really did feel an authentic need to cry on Richard's shoulder and yes, have his emotional and financial support since she believed she couldn't go home. I think the main thing stopping me is that Alexis Bledel's performance was crap. However from a plot perspective, Rory didn't know that there was a Lorelai/Richard/Emily intervention tag-team coming down the pike. She thought she was the first one to talk to Richard. And sure Rory wanted to reach out to Richard for a home as well as cry on his shoulder, but I don't see that as manipulation. However, I agree that Rory knew that it would hurt Lorelai. Although unlike above with Rory's stomp out the elder Gilmore's house and attempt to finagle an end to FDN by finding a new sugar-daddy.....Daddy, I don't think Rory was OUT to hurt Lorelia like E/R. I think in Rory's head, Lorelai kicked Rory out because Rory didn't conform the collegiate track- Rory felt both hurt and out to find a living situation that would let her take her break and thus, Rory actually relished going nuclear to fix her problem and dish back what she felt Lorelai was dishing to her. I think Rory also harbored fantasies that if Rory declared her independence to so strikingly, Lorelai would want to compete with E/R and come back for her. Rory kept waiting in early S6 for Lorelai to miss her enough or recover HER kid from the much maligned E/R to show up. 

 

So yeah, I think Rory behaved abominably towards Lorelai- but I still felt bad for Rory for craving her mother but feeling like her mother gave up on her. Craving a mother is universally appealing feeling- as opposed to petty vindictiveness, callowness, slothiness, gross entitlement, flagrant disregard of other's property and the law to resolve personal problems, and Rory's emotions in her spectrum in that time period. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

And when I said Richard did plenty, you wrote a bunch of stuff he should have done

 

No,  I said he could have done, not should have done.

[Taryn74]

I don't remember who brought it up, but I totally agree that Rory thought Lorelai was basically kicking her out of the house in AHINAH, and my UO has always been that when push came to shove, Lorelai had exactly the same 'my way or the highway' attitude with Rory that she spent years resenting her parents for. 

 

I've said before that when I'm away from this show for too long, I start to forget why I even like the characters, LOL.  I think it's time for me to watch it again.

[shron17]

My inclination is that Rory really did feel an authentic need to cry on Richard's shoulder and yes, have his emotional and financial support since she believed she couldn't go home.

I can buy that, although I have no doubt Rory also knew exactly what she was doing by going to the grandparents,  If not, she could have gone to Logan for the shoulder and a place to stay.  No, she didn't know tag team arrangements had already been made but she probably guessed FND could easily turn into that and wanted to get the money/power on her side. 

 

I don't think Rory was OUT to hurt Lorelia like E/R. I think in Rory's head, Lorelai kicked Rory out because Rory didn't conform the collegiate track- Rory felt both hurt and out to find a living situation that would let her take her break and thus, Rory actually relished going nuclear to fix her problem and dish back what she felt Lorelai was dishing to her.

I agree neither was out to hurt the other.  They both got angry over the talk at Weston's, and I do think Rory acted out of anger (and determination to make her own decisions) and that's why she didn't go back to Lorelai.  I think Lorelai panicked.  She saw Rory letting her future slip away and overreacted and then went to her parents to help fix it.  I was never sure E/R were out to hurt Lorelai in this instance.  They knew she'd be angry but both seemed somewhat regretful.  I think if Lorelai had shown more respect and recognition that Rory was capable of making her own decisions, it wouldn't have caused so much angst.  On the other hand, Rory had recently made some really bad decisions.  I also think Rory's craving her mother vs. feeling her mother gave up on her is often part of the becoming independent process, especially with a mother/daughter as close as they were.

 

Actually, I think my least favorite Rory incident is abandoning E/R without so much as a goodbye, sending Colin and Finn to get her stuff, and then, boycotting them because Emily and Richard expected Rory to live according to their rules while she was living off them

At first I wasn't sure, but after giving it a little more thought I agree.  For me, it's because it seemed a bit like Rory wasn't being independent and making her own decisions so much as escaping an uncomfortable living situation without taking full responsibility for the choices she made to get there.

Edited January 6, 2016 by shron17

[Melancholy]

No,  I said he could have done, not should have done.

 

So, are you recanting your comment that Richard "couldn't stir himself to help her after she dropped out of Yale - despite his promises. He left everything to Emily - and then criticized her when things didn't turn out as he wanted."

 

Taryn74, I was the one who said Rory honestly and fairly believed Lorelai was kicking her out of the house based on Lorelai's own words that taking some time off at home with a Stars Hallow job was unacceptable. Ironically, though, I don't think Lorelai made up her mind to throw Rory out. I think Lorelai was still in, "Make threats, arrange interventions and it'll all get Rory back to Yale and on the right track." Until Rory moved into the poolhouse, I think Lorelai always thought, deep down, that she was playing hardball because she thought Rory deserved hardball coming her way because of her previous misdeeds but also because Lorelai thought it would really, really work. IMO, Lorelai wasn't prepared on what to do if she and her parents gave Rory a helluva of a fire & brimstone scolding but Rory STILL wanted to take time off. We'll never really know. I could actually see like Emily getting too intense for Lorelai's taste and suddenly, Lorelai decided to take back what she just said because she sees herself far too reflected in her <Lorelai voice of disgust> *mother* and give Rory the Lorelai-subsized and supported break from college that Rory wanted ala letting Rory hang out with Jess in A Tisket, A Tasket. 

 

I can buy that, although I have no doubt Rory also knew exactly what she was doing by going to the grandparents,  If not, she could have gone to Logan for the shoulder and a place to stay.  No, she didn't know tag team arrangements had already been made but she probably guessed FND could easily turn into that and wanted to get the money/power on her side.

 

Rory wasn't ready to move in with Logan- that was a huge thing that Rory made that step many months later in their relationship after Rory told him that she loved him. By the end of S5, they'd only be dating for a short time. Also, I'd imagine that Logan stays at his parents' over the upcoming summer break and then, he seemed to live in a Yale dorm until he got an apartment in S6. I think Rory is too much of a princess to pull a Lane and squat in a Yale dorm room where she doesn't even go there. 

 

I don't think Rory looked to Richard as someone who could convince Lorelai, first and foremost. E/R have little power with Lorelai, like NEGATIVE power. I still think Rory was first looking for emotional support and then, a home and financial support since she thought Lorelai kicked her out. But yes, as a distant almost subconscious third, I did think that while E/R can't convince Lorelai to do anything, Rory did hope that Lorelai would be moved to compete a little with her parents for Rory's heart and presence if Rory moved in with them and stop the rejection that was really bothering Rory.  

[shron17]

I don't think Rory looked to Richard as someone who could convince Lorelai, first and foremost. E/R have little power with Lorelai, like NEGATIVE power. I still think Rory was first looking for emotional support and then, a home and financial support since she thought Lorelai kicked her out.

I don't think Rory expected Richard or Emily to convince Lorelai of anything.  By being allowed to move into the pool house I think Rory was making the point that she had won her "independence" and would make her own decision about when and if she would go back to Yale.

Edited January 6, 2016 by shron17

[themoon411]

Yeah, I agree that L reacted to rory's declaration of leaving yale the way her parents reacted to her pregnancy. Although she prolly started out planning to let rory be who she wanted to be, when rory transformed into a brainy kid with an ivy league future, L enjoyed the spot light on her as the mother of the smartest kid in stars hollow. I imagine it was subconscious, something L herself would not acknowledge,  but it would explain her over reaction to rory taking time off. L 's mantra had always been " you can be what you want" when it came to her daughter,  so wouldn't that include some one who takes a break from college?

Another uo is I felt her personality change with Logan was bad writing. She was always the shy introverted girl, who despite her niceness had difficulty making friends, who hated parties and large crowds. All of the sudden she is party organizer  extraordinaire,  who enjoys social gatherings and big group events. No where does the script insinuate that she hates doing this and is only doing this for logan. So freshman year of college she watches documentaries during spring break in florida, and sophomore year she is all about partying with logan...

[Minneapple]

Actually, I think my least favorite Rory incident is abandoning E/R without so much as a goodbye, sending Colin and Finn to get her stuff, and then, boycotting them because Emily and Richard expected Rory to live according to their rules while she was living off them and Emily, alone, was getting shrewish and fighty (not even Richard- he didn't even fight with Rory).

 

This is close. But my least favorite Rory incident is the time that Colin, Finn and Logan were all talking about the milkmaid who didn't know English in front of her and Rory just stood there like, whatever. That was plain cringeworthy. And then there was the adultery. Well, not the adultery exactly, but the part where she expected Lorelai to be happy for her. 

[txhorns79]

Well, not the adultery exactly, but the part where she expected Lorelai to be happy for her.

 

In fairness, I don't know if Rory honestly expected Lorelai to be happy about that, so much as she was desperately trying to avoid seeing how disappointed her mother was. 

[Melancholy]

In fairness, I don't know if Rory honestly expected Lorelai to be happy about that, so much as she was desperately trying to avoid seeing how disappointed her mother was.

That's how I read it- Rory knew Lorelai would have a fucking righteous problem with it and that was making Rory face her own guilt buried under her entitlement and alleged...lust?* So, Rory was tap-dancing to try to make it all right for her and Rory by pushing the match as a good idea. 

*Seriously, always a problem wth making the Dean/Rory the affair-couple. IMO, Jared and Alexis never had good chemistry. And I fully get that there's something wrong with me because JP leaves me completely cold, on GG and in his beefed-up Supernatural state. Normally, I LOVE tall, dark, classically handsome especially with a boyish vibe but JP is weirdly unattractive to me. But never more so as in late S4 with the hair and mustache that bothered way more with Richard's infamous S4 mustache. Really, Dean can keep the marital adultery storyline instead of Jess or Logan having to carry that sick chicken of a plot, I MEAN REALLY, but I'll still query how Rory had her affair story with the least hot guy on her list. (That said, I think, like, Rory found the boat stealing more of an intimate, passionate thing than the extramarital sex. I lol at Rory at therapy. "I stole a boat with him! I never stole a boat with Dean...my married ex-boyfriend who I lost my virginity with. Yeah, I'm a treat!" Hee! We're all rightfully describing what was wrong with late season Rory- but I still really loved her and scenes like that were part of why. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Melancholy

[Minneapple]

In fairness, I don't know if Rory honestly expected Lorelai to be happy about that, so much as she was desperately trying to avoid seeing how disappointed her mother was.

 

Her words "I hate you for ruining this for me" were what got me. Maybe she just wanted Lorelai to validate her actions. But I wanted to smack Rory in that moment. For such a smart girl, man, what a stupid thing to do.

 

I just rewatched the final scene of Raincoats and Recipes and man, is it ever good. Like really really good. Like it makes me want this show back right now good. You could practically hear Lorelai's heart shattering when she realized what had happened with Rory and Dean. 

[dustylil]

By being allowed to move into the pool house I think Rory was making the point that she had won her "independence" and would make her own decision about when and if she would go back to Yale

 

Rory's "independence" always made me laugh. All of her expenses were  paid and she  had daily maid service. She didn't even have to look for a job. One fell into her lap.

Of course, there was no reason why she shouldn't live in Hartford or her grandparents' dime while she regrouped.

But "independence" it wasn't.

Edited January 6, 2016 by dustylil

[Persnickety1]

It was your standard! You wrote:

I thought he was self-centred, pompous blowhard. He was devoted to his family - as long as its members conformed to his expectations of them. Even with his beloved granddaughter, his do-over Rory, he couldn't stir himself to help her after she

dropped out of Yale - despite his promises. He left everything to Emily - and then criticized her when things didn't turn out as he wanted.

 

 

I couldn't find the original post for this but I had a totally different interpretation of that scenario, just based on watching my own real-life dealings between my daughter and her grandfather.  

 

I interpreted that entire scene as Richard trying to avoid Rory when she showed up, bent on holding up his end of the deal with Emily and Loralei about how to handle the situation and present a united front.

 

I knew as soon as Rory cranked up the tears and hugged her grandfather, he would cave.  Exactly as my father, my daughter's grandfather, would have immediately melted.

 

I always got the impression Emily was going to stick with the game plan but Lorelai, based on past experience, just assumed Emily had been part of Richard's "scheme."

 

And I don't believe it was any premeditated "plan" on Richard's part.  I think he was, in that moment, simply a grandfather who couldn't hold a hard and fast line with his emotionally overwhelmed granddaughter.

 

Maybe not the best decision in this case, but a perfectly understandable one, in my life experience.  My daughter is the light of my father's life.  He never would have been able to stick to a hard line in such a case, either.  

 

My general unpopular opinions include the fact that I found Rory an insufferable little shit after the Affair with Dean debacle.  I pretty much chortled at every unpleasantry and disappointment she encountered after that event, primarily because of the way she turned on Loralei when Loralei didn't pat her on the head, tell her what a great kid she was for knowingly having sexy time with newlywed Dean, and take her to Westin's for a celebratory cupcake.  Didn't take long for Rory to jettison her "best friend" as soon as she didn't condone a mistake of epic proportions.  Ugh.

 

Another unpopular opinion.  I'm crossing my fingers that April's science camp took place aboard a cruise ship that disappeared into the Bermuda Triangle, and she was never heard from again...And Anna also disappeared into thin air when she went to join the search.  

 

And with any luck, TJ and Liz somehow were on the ship when it disappeared, too.  

[txhorns79]

Her words "I hate you for ruining this for me" were what got me. Maybe she just wanted Lorelai to validate her actions. But I wanted to smack Rory in that moment. For such a smart girl, man, what a stupid thing to do.

 

You are entirely right.  It was very stupid of her, and honestly, one of the better moments of the series because it put Rory and Lorelai into a situation where they couldn't resolve things with pop culture references, or otherwise charm one another.  They had to deal with each other as people, rather than "best friends," or "mother/daughter."  I would also agree that Rory did desperately want to be validated in that moment by Lorelai.  Rory knew that she made a mistake, and the look on her mother's face simply confirmed that for her. 

 

 

And I don't believe it was any premeditated "plan" on Richard's part.  I think he was, in that moment, simply a grandfather who couldn't hold a hard and fast line with his emotionally overwhelmed granddaughter.

 

I think you are right.  I don't think Emily and Richard set out to betray Lorelai, or otherwise schemed to undermine her.  I think Rory being so upset was just too much for them to keep things together.  They had an emotional reaction, and it ended up biting them in the ass. 

[Melancholy]

My general unpopular opinions include the fact that I found Rory an insufferable little shit after the Affair with Dean debacle.  I pretty much chortled at every unpleasantry and disappointment she encountered after that event, primarily because of the way she turned on Loralei when Loralei didn't pat her on the head, tell her what a great kid she was for knowingly having sexy time with newlywed Dean, and take her to Westin's for a celebratory cupcake.  Didn't take long for Rory to jettison her "best friend" as soon as she didn't condone a mistake of epic proportions.  Ugh.

 

I still liked Rory through the later seasons, even though she absolutely behaved terribly a lot. But yeah, one of the worst parts of Rory's behavior in that incident was how she treated Lorelai. Rory trying to spin the affair into something Lorelai should validate was bad, but could be viewed sympathetically as Rory trying to stem this unbearable wave of disappointment and hurt coming at her from Lorelai. However, IMO, the worst part is how Rory was so freakin' cold and dismissive to Lorelai in Say Goodbye to Daisy Miller and completely uninterested in talking to her. Even though Lorelai wasn't the one who fucked up but Lorelai was the one trying to reach out. 

 

...But then, Rory is all "So, what is this, a Henry James novel? The young lady acts up, and her family ships her off to Europe?...Say Goodbye to Daisy Miller!" and I remain a fan of hers even though she was acting very wrongly.

 

Perhaps an UO. I think Rory felt a brief but powerful itch for Dean, both sexual and for the Golden Girl that she was and treated like when she was with him. However, Rory wasn't in love with him or craved a serious relationship with him. IMO, Rory started up with him again after Europe mainly out of a weird sense of guilt and pressure to conform to some romance. Since, she accidentally broke up their marriage with the affair and then, with the Dear John letter, Rory felt pressure to stick around to be Dean's girl but she didn't exactly want to be. When they were dating, it was like Rory made herself incapable of necking in the front seat of a car or incapable of staying longer than 4 minutes at Dean's house because of an "early day tomorrow." They exacerbated their teen relationship dynamic where Dean was always pawing at her and trying to get physical while Rory subtly resisted Dean's advances by babbling about plans or town dynamics or HER MOTHER. Rory and Dean weren't thwarted by external sources- the grandparents, scheduling conflicts, Luke or Lorelai, a fair inability to find a good place to date- it was all Rory's lack of interest in the relationship. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Melancholy

[Taryn74]

IMO, Rory started up with him again after Europe mainly out of a weird sense of guilt and pressure to conform to some romance. Since, she accidentally broke up their marriage with the affair and then, with the Dear John letter, Rory felt pressure to stick around to be Dean's girl but she didn't exactly want to be. 

 

Hmm, that's a really interesting point.  I can definitely see Rory (even if it was just subconsciously) knowing that breaking up a marriage was bad enough, but breaking up a marriage over what was essentially a one-night stand was truly despicable.  So she had to cling to the idea there was a real relationship between her and Dean, and convince herself that everything was worth it because they were "meant to be together" even though her heart wasn't in it.  And then, true to her passive-aggressive nature, she continued to string Dean along until HE finally got fed up and broke things off, and thus she was free to move on without the breakup being "her fault." 

 

...which is exactly what she did before when Jess came to town, just with the decimal point moved over.  Makes perfect sense when you look at it as a pattern with her.

[txhorns79]

So she had to cling to the idea there was a real relationship between her and Dean, and convince herself that everything was worth it because they were "meant to be together" even though her heart wasn't in it.  And then, true to her passive-aggressive nature, she continued to string Dean along until HE finally got fed up and broke things off, and thus she was free to move on without the breakup being "her fault."

 

I definitely think there was an "obligation" and "I'll show all of you" aspect to Rory and Dean during the second go around.  I don't know if she was stringing Dean along, or if it was mutually convenient denial that Dean eventually became unable to tolerate.     

[dustylil]

Persnickety1, actually I wasn't writing about Richard breaking his word to Lorelai when Rory came to him. My comments concerned what transpired after that, once Rory moved to the pool house.

 

And I agree that it was perfectly reasonable for a loving grandfather to respond that way to a distraught granddaughter. Even if she was being somewhat economical with the truth. Of course, he then should have called Lorelai to make her aware of Rory's visit. Who knows, she may have agreed that Rory staying in Hartford for a while made some sense.

Edited January 6, 2016 by dustylil

[themoon411]

I think dean equally used rory the way she used him. His issues with lindsy weren't rory related, and when he reconnected with rory he was flooded with nostalgia of a happier time. The thing with nostalgia is you only remember the good and so he completely forgot all the bad that happened with rory. Also, when he was with rory as a teenager he had fewer responsibilities and less stress, and his desire for rory was based on the desire to be his younger self. If he was truly in love with rory as he claimed to be, then he wouldn't have given up on her  so easily. I believe he thought dating her would bring back his feelings of youth, but it just came with its own set of problems.

[Eyes High]

Perhaps an UO. I think Rory felt a brief but powerful itch for Dean, both sexual and for the Golden Girl that she was and treated like when she was with him.

 

Maybe there's also a bit of "Good Girl" baggage in Rory's actions, then? Rory usually strived to be or at least be seen as the "good girl," which has a lot of unfortunate, sexist, fucked-up associations when it comes to sexuality. "Good girls" don't have one-night stands. "Good girls" don't have sex outside of committed romantic relationships (preferably not outside of marriage). "Good girls" don't have sex in their teens. "Good girls" don't have sexual impulses, and even if they do, they don't act on their sexual impulses outside a committed romantic relationship. And so on. Rory in having sex with Dean broke the "Good Girl" code (he's married, they weren't in a relationship at the time, etc. etc.), but it's a much worse violation of the code if she only did it to scratch an itch (since "good girls" don't lust) and not because they were deeply in love. Thus her desperate pitch to sell this to Lorelai, she who preened "I've got the good kid" about Rory's reluctance to have sex, as the greatest thing ever. She didn't want to be seen, or to have Lorelai see her, as that kind of girl. With a romantic gloss on it and a committed, monogamous romantic relationship in the offing, it's "Good Girl" code-approved true love with less than auspicious beginnings. Without that gloss, the one-night stand is a tawdry one-off that brands Rory as a "bad girl" who not only experiences lust without love (!!!), something that a number of conservatives claim is simply not possible for women, but who acts on that lust (!!!!).

Edited January 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[shron17]

I agree, Dean definitely used Rory as well.  Rory opened the door to the cheating when Dean told her Lindsey didn't want him to see her anymore but he wasn't going to let that happen.  If she'd said no, I'm sorry, I'd like to be friends but this feels like it's crossing a line it would have ended there.  Instead Rory ramped it up by calling Dean to pick her up from the bar, and then inviting him to her room.  If Jess hadn't been there that night it could have happened then.  After that Dean was done until Rory made it a point to let him know she was still interested.   I think Rory did think it happened because of the love between them, at least until she asked Dean at the election party if he would have still left Lindsey if she hadn't found the note.  Dean denied it, of course, but I think she knew then.  For Dean it was likely the fantasy of the girl that got away vs. the one he married.

[dustylil]

Perhaps I am being excessively cynical but I don't see much of a Good Girl in Rory. Totally apart from her post-high school relationship with Dean, she had Logan convinced he was her first sexual partner.

RORY: I told her minister.

LOGAN: But-but why would you do that?

RORY: Because he was going on and on about my virtue being a gift. And now you have it, so I'm gonna have to buy the next guy a sweater

 

And this was a conversation that took place several months after she and Logan became involved.

However fond she was of Logan, she knew this aspect of their relationship would make her different from his usual assortment of bridesmaids and bimbos. Well played, Rory!

[solotrek]

I thought her telling the minister was just dumb. Just say "thank you for the advice and your time to discuss this awkward issue. Lets just eat now." and be done with it. No need for her to tell him she had sex awhile ago and the "you'd like the 40 Year Old Virgin" quip. That seems like a ridiculously naive way for someone who wants to be a foreign correspondent to react to the situation regardless of how awkward.

[Melancholy]

And I agree that it was perfectly reasonable for a loving grandfather to respond that way to a distraught granddaughter. Even if she was being somewhat economical with the truth. Of course, he then should have called Lorelai to make her aware of Rory's visit. Who knows, she may have agreed that Rory staying in Hartford for a while made some sense.

 

I doubt Lorelai would have agreed to Rory staying in Hartford. And I don't think it was a distinction of a phone call to Lorelai that afternoon vs. how E/R actually told Lorelia when she arrived that evening. However, yes, Lorelai wouldn't have been angry at Richard if he *asked* if Rory could stay instead of informing Lorelai that Rory would be staying. I highly doubt she would have said "yes"- the whole point of Lorelai's ultimatum was to force Rory to go back to college, not to give her a change of scenery with the grandparents. 

 

I think that's very true, Eyes High. IMO, Rory did more damage and conducted herself with less class in her endless pursuit to be The Good Girl, with Rory/Jess/Dean and with Rory/Dean Part Deux. She ended up doing bizarre things like parading divorced/separated Dean around Stars Hallow for double-dates with her mother to perform the Good Girl role, when she was actually doubling-down on the adulteress role for no good reason. 

 

dustylil, I've always been undecided about that Rory/Logan scene. Was she lying to Logan that he was Her First or was that just brief short-hand to inform Logan that she told the minister that she wasn't a virgin? It could be both. I don't think it HAS to be the former- Rory just wanted to tell Logan that the minster/E/R know that they're having sex; Rory probably didn't want to get into Studmuffin Zero. At any rate, I think all different pre-marital partners are considered as part of the Virtue Losing Process according to that patriarchal set, although obviously Studmuffin Zero is the most important. 

 

I think I'm inclined to give Rory the benefit of the doubt because I don't think it looks so Good Girl for Rory to say that she gave Logan her virginity when she was just one of his good time girls, then uninterested in an exclusive relationship. In that instance, I think Rory actually comes off more like the Good Girl but also the worldly college student who knows what she's getting into and isn't owned by him that she really wanted to project by acting like she had sexual experience from an established relationship (omit the married part, though!), and she may have been experimenting with non-commitment with Logan but he wasn't her first sexual experience. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

Totally apart from her post-high school relationship with Dean, she had Logan convinced he was her first sexual partner.

 

I don't know if he was convinced of anything, or that he even cared all that much, so much as I don't recall the subject coming up again. 

 

Without that gloss, the one-night stand is a tawdry one-off that brands Rory as a "bad girl" who not only experiences lust without love (!!!), something that a number of conservatives claim is simply not possible for women, but who acts on that lust (!!!!).

 

Ha.  There will always be people who obsess over others' sex lives, or seek to brand people based upon who they are having sex with.  I'll just say this, I don't think Rory being a "good" girl or "bad" girl has anything to do with her sex life.  She certainly made mistakes in how she handled things with Dean, but that doesn't make her good or bad (as I do believe "good" people can have affairs, just like a "bad" person might say "no" to one).      

Edited January 6, 2016 by txhorns79

[dustylil]

Was she lying to Logan that he was Her First or was that just brief short-hand to inform Logan that she told the minister that she wasn't a virgin?

Melancholy, I  freely confess that after Season 3 I tended to be dubious about Rory and her intentions and motivations. However, prior to the dialogue I cited above,  she had already told Logan that she had informed Rev. Boatwright that she was no longer a virgin. The preacher man then seemingly  broadcast that tidbit to Emily.

[Persnickety1]

Just my take on the situation, but I sort of felt Dean was to Rory what Max was to Loralei.

 

Whenever either of the Gilmore girls were feeling lonely or insecure or needing a self-esteem boost, they had their "go-to" men in the wings.  Well, at least until those 2 men caught on to the game and broke things off.  

 

I agree about Rory's Damsel in Distress call to Dean.  Rory was purportedly "loved" by every single resident of Stars Hollow.  She could have called innumerable individuals to pick her up...Instead she chose to call Dean, and then had the lady balls to ask him how he was able to get away from Lindsay to go out with her.  Brass lady balls....Yep, the youngest Ms. Gilmore had them!

 

Very reminiscent of Loralei calling Luke, who she had to know was attracted to her after their little encounter at the dinner less than an hour earlier, to help her find a freaking baby apparently Ninja chicken in her own living room.  As Sookie pointed out to her, "You could have called anybody, Miss Patti RAISES chickens....But you called Luke."

 

When those Gilmore girls want to use their wiles on men, they're pretty much a force to be reckoned with.  

Edited January 7, 2016 by Persnickety1

[dustylil]

She could have called innumerable individuals to pick her up

 

 Or her grandparents. Or a cab company.

Very reminiscent of Loralei calling Luke, who she had to be aware was attracted to her, to help her find a freaking baby chicken in her own living room.  As Sookie pointed out to her, "You could have called anybody, Miss Patti RAISES chickens....But you called Luke

 

Respectfully, I think those are two different situations. Both Luke and Lorelai were single and for want of a better term, answered to no one.   Even if Lorelai thought Luke was attracted to her, the fact that he had never asked her out meant to her that his interest in her wasn't all that great.  Their relationship was and  had been that of a platonic friendship. They helped one another out.  Even after their messy breakup, Luke was  calling on Lorelai  for assistance  when April got sick.

 

Dean on the other hand was a former boyfriend and was now married. He was under some obligation regarding his conduct and his whereabouts to his wife. Just as Lindsay was to him, of course. One can well imagine Dean's reaction if she had been secretly getting together with an old high school boyfriend - or perhaps Jess! - to reminisce or discuss meal planning :)

 

Now sure Lorelai could have called Miss Patti in that situation. But she was trying to catch a chick, not breed them. She needed someone of at least moderate flexibility to help corral the little beast loose somewhere on the first floor of her house.

[Guest]

Also Lorelai was single as well at that time. I think she was starting to explore her feelings for Luke.  That is a far different situation from calling your married ex-boyfriend, in my opinion.

[Melancholy]

Yeah, I saw nothing wrong with Lorelai asking for Luke's help getting the chick. I do think Lorelai knew that Luke had a crush on her from the start of the series (Lorelai's not annoyingly naive ala Rory with Tristan and Marty) but Lorelai had no idea how deep it went until they started dating and especially, when Luke pulled out the horoscope. I think Luke was a component of Lorelai's attitude toward the entire male gender- she knows that she's beautiful and charming and men "thoroughly enjoy the way I dress" and she basically anticipated that if she asked for something, especially with a little flirtation or as the damsel in distress, men would want to help her. She was usually right about that, and she'd get cranky at the minority of men immune to her charms. It could be annoying, but mainly it felt like an entirely accurate way to look at the world and how Lorelai is supposed to survive and thrive in it. I think that's mostly what Persnickety1 is referring to in terms of the Gilmore Girls wiles. Rory takes a few seasons to acquire this flirtatious confidence, but she gets there.  

 

I wouldn't have had a problem with Rory calling Dean for a ride if it was just that. She didn't have any cash on her and she was in a bad neighborhood to walk to an ATM- that's why she didn't call a cab company. I don't know if New Haven cabs were outfitted with credit card machines in what, 2004? I don't think so. She didn't want to call her grandparents because Emily was the one who set her up with that asshole dude-bro in the first place and she probably didn't want to either get him in trouble with his mother through Emily (and open herself up to retaliatory tattle-taling on Rory's underage day drinking) or hear Emily's rantings that it couldn't have been THAT bad and she should have given this fine young man more of a chance. She knew Lorelai and Luke were at Liz/TJ's wedding. She was among the last Yale students left taking exams- everyone else was going home. Paris was off to London with Asher, IIRC. I think she might have known Lane was having the big Reunion Dinner with Mrs. Kim, along with the bandmates. It was contrived, but yeah, Dean was one of the few people that Rory could call. I guess Sookie/Jackson but for all of the longevity of her history with Sookie, Rory didn't have much of an independent relationship with Sookie. I could see Rory calling Luke for a ride, not really Sookie. I guess Rory could have called her father- but I could understand how Rory doesn't even compute in her head "Call Dad if I have a problem", "Dad" and "solution" are never near each other in Rory's head for good reason. 

 

And for a quick bail, I don't think Rory needs to be Dean's Keeper in terms of the marriage. If Dean offered this help innocently, I'm sure he could tell Lindsay, even if Lindsay would insist on coming along. The problem wasn't Dean driving to the restaurant, in and of itself. It's that Dean intended it as an escape from his marriage (IT FEELS SO GOOD TO GET OUT AND LAUGH) and Rory (I think mostly subconsciously) craved attention from Dean after everyone made such a fuss over her dry freshman year and after she fought with Dean but never made up. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

I thought Rory could have called a cab and then stopped at an ATM in a safer neighbourhood of New Haven or closer to Stars Hollow if the company didn't take credit cards.

But then that would have shown some independence and personal responsibility :)

[Melancholy]

How much "independence and personal respectability"? I don't think there's some competence gulf between Rory calling Dean and Rory instructing a cabbie to wait at her at an ATM. I think Rory knew the latter could be available to her. I think her mentality was more that she was annoyed with the evening, she felt very alone and rejected by the dude-bro guy, most of her friends and family were busy- she wanted the ease and security of a friend coming to pick her up and to take this rare justified opportunity to resolve her fight with Dean (legit) but also the confidence-boost of a former love interest rushing to her rescue after her dry freshman year (not legit). 

 

But in and of itself, I don't think there's a universal moral and societal precept against someone calling a married-ex for help in a (minor) emergency. It's just that the married ex needs to go about it honestly. I saw nothing wrong with Lorelai's numerous interactions with Christopher while she was dating Luke right up until the "Engagement's been called off for twenty minutes- let's have sex!". Just when when Lorelai didn't tell Luke that she was seeing Christopher. When Rory called Dean, Rory have somewhat craved validation but she was putting the ball in Dean's court to deny the request, get permission from Lindsay to pick Rory up solo, drive with Lindsay to pick Rory up, drive quickly to get Rory but with no funny business whatsoever, or what Dean did- get Rory without telling Lindsay and stay for a leisurely meal and walk through Yale. Rory wanted the validation and that's not great, but as her comment indicated, even she was a little taken-aback at how much Dean took Rory's ball and was running away with Lindsay with it into the endzone- from the long dinner, to walk back to Yale, to the apparently, Lindsay-less conversation, to Dean feelings-vomiting about how it's the first evening that he's GOTTEN OUT and GOTTEN TO LAUGH. At this point, it was like 95 percent Dean's fault. It was still mostly Dean's fault- but I think more blame shifts to the other woman when she starts granting the sexual favors or deliberately flirting, not when she calls him for help, assuming that he can be trusted to go see her without deceiving his wife. 

[txhorns79]

I thought Rory could have called a cab and then stopped at an ATM in a safer neighborhood of New Haven or closer to Stars Hollow if the company didn't take credit cards.

But then that would have shown some independence and personal responsibility

 

I don't know what your experience with cabs might be, but I can't imagine many cab drivers are eager to pick someone up who tells them she has no cash, but will pay them if they drive her to an ATM.   

 

 

But in and of itself, I don't think there's a universal moral and societal precept against someone calling a married-ex for help in a (minor) emergency.

 

I would agree to the extent that it's an innocent phone call for help.  Otherwise, you'd need to do full disclosure to your spouse, and then run the errand.   

[shron17]

But in and of itself, I don't think there's a universal moral and societal precept against someone calling a married-ex for help in a (minor) emergency. It's just that the married ex needs to go about it honestly.

 

Rory knew Dean wasn't being honest with Lindsay about their relationship from Tick Tick Boom on:

 

RORY: She knows we talk, right -- that we're friends?

DEAN: She does now. She doesn't want me talking to you anymore.

RORY: Oh. Well, I guess that's understandable.

DEAN: I don't want that to happen.

RORY: I don't want that to happen either.

DEAN: Then it's not gonna happen.

 

Like I said before, this is where I think Rory opened the door to cheating with Dean.  She knew when she called to ask for a ride that Dean wasn't going to be asking Lindsay's permission.  And I don't believe Rory is so naive to believe continuing her relationship with him behind his wife's back wouldn't eventually lead to sex. 

 

Rory have somewhat craved validation but she was putting the ball in Dean's court to deny the request, get permission from Lindsay to pick Rory up solo, drive with Lindsay to pick Rory up, drive quickly to get Rory but with no funny business whatsoever, or what Dean did- get Rory without telling Lindsay and stay for a leisurely meal and walk through Yale.

Rory was the one who invited Dean to eat and walk her through the deserted campus to her room.  If she really just needed a ride she could have had him drop her off at a convenient spot.  Then Dean got mad because Jess was there and Rory made a point to talk to him about it later.  If her purpose at that point wasn't to see where their relationship would go, then why would she do that?  I agree that Rory wasn't the keeper of Dean's marriage, but I do hold her responsible for her own integrity in regards to her behavior.  She knew Dean was married yet made it clear that she was open to taking their secret relationship as far as he wanted.

Edited January 7, 2016 by shron17

[Melancholy]

I don't want to over-defend Rory because we know how this ends- in her room, on Miss Patty's dance floor, etc. (Actually, very possibly NO etc. once Dean was divorced- this relationship was stupid. I guess maybe in Rory's dorm.) However, IMO, Rory wasn't after sex in Last Week's Fights, This Week's Tights when she called Dean. She was just after a ride, a resolution to their conflict (because Rory hates the idea of anyone out there angry at her), and validation that her former boyfriend would rush to her rescue. It took the dinner to cause those romantic feelings to rush back. Then, Rory talked herself into being into Dean again with Lane. Then, Dean coming to her house, telling her that the marriage was over, saying that Rory would make him happy and a pretty hard-sell seduction, made Rory decide to sleep with him. 

 

Like I said before, this is where I think Rory opened the door to cheating with Dean.  She knew when she called to ask for a ride that Dean wasn't going to be asking Lindsay's permission.  And I don't believe Rory is so naive to believe continuing her relationship with him behind his wife's back wouldn't eventually lead to sex. 

 

How does Rory know Dean wouldn't ask Lindsay for permission? He was already busted. I think a flawed but decent guy may slip up and talk to the ex without permission. However if the wife made it perfectly clear that unauthorized conversations between her husband and his ex were upsetting her, an honest, halfway decent husband would ask his wife for permission to go pick up Rory from a stick situation, promising to go get her and bring her back fast or offering to let Lindsay come along to see how innocent this all is. Instead of making the same mistake and lying AGAIN. Rory was still under the impression that Dean was committed to Lindsay. She saw him as a stickler for fidelity what with all of the carrying on Dean did about Jess. Up until that evening, Rory didn't have any facts that contradicted that. IMO, Rory thought she could call Dean and he'd have some way of working it out with his wife to comport himself decently and honestly. Dean didn't- and that's what Rory was realizing with the "How are you able to be out with me this long?" THEN, she realized she kinda liked that lack of decency. 

 

 

Rory was the one who invited Dean to eat and walk her through the deserted campus to her room.  If she really just needed a ride she could have had him drop her off at a convenient spot.

 

Rory hadn't eaten since breakfast and there was an open bar tab from rich dude-bros. Who passes that up? However, I agree that sometime within dinner, Rory and Dean were both getting carried away by being together and dangerously prolonging the evening. Rory had a moment where she came back down to earth to remember Lindsay, IMO, because she could feel herself getting carried away. 

 

 

Then Dean got mad because Jess was there and Rory made a point to talk to him about it later.  If her purpose at that point wasn't to see where their relationship would go, then why would she do that?

 

I actually thought some of it was instinct- Jess/Dean face-off, Rory placates Dean and heads into her melodramatic scene with Jess. I think it's a pretty hardened response with Rory. Some of it was that Dean drove all the way out to rescue her- so I get Rory feeling like a heel to shoe him away for Jess...again. However, yes, as I said- I believe Rory started off with mostly innocent reasons for calling Dean at the start of the evening, but the dinner and walk-back is really where the infidelity was, pun intended, conceived. 

[shron17]

Rory was still under the impression that Dean was committed to Lindsay.

You think?  To quote the quotes I quoted above, Dean said Lindsay didn't want him to talk to Rory anymore but he didn't want that to happen.  Rory replied that she didn't want it to happen either, and Dean said then it's not happening.  It seems pretty clear to me that Dean's intention at that point is to continue to see and talk with Rory but not tell his wife.

 

However, IMO, Rory wasn't after sex in Last Week's Fights, This Week's Tights when she called Dean.

I don't think she was after sex either, only that her actions showed she was open to the possibility of sleeping with a married man.  Especially given that Dean had told her he wasn't going to stop talking to her despite Lindsay's wishes.

[Melancholy]

You think?  To quote the quotes I quoted above, Dean said Lindsay didn't want him to talk to Rory anymore but he didn't want that to happen.  Rory replied that she didn't want it to happen either, and Dean said then it's not happening.  It seems pretty clear to me that Dean's intention at that point is to continue to see and talk with Rory but not tell his wife.

 

I don't think it was that crystal clear. I think Rory interpreted Dean's comment that he'd go convince Lindsay that he shouldn't be incommunicado with Rory, and stand his ground. I didn't see Rory consent to a secret relationship there. JP delivers his "Then it's *not* going to happen" like a man of conviction, out to stand his 20 feet of height and enforce his All-American boy will with directness. Not like someone out to sneak around. That's why Rory asked Dean how he was able to go spend so much time with her, and whether Lindsay knew where he is. If Rory knew that this was a secret relationship, Rory wouldn't have asked if Lindsay knew where Dean was. 

[txhorns79]

Like I said before, this is where I think Rory opened the door to cheating with Dean.  She knew when she called to ask for a ride that Dean wasn't going to be asking Lindsay's permission.  And I don't believe Rory is so naive to believe continuing her relationship with him behind his wife's back wouldn't eventually lead to sex.

 

I'm very mixed on that.  I don't like the idea of holding Rory responsible to make sure Dean is obeying his wife's directives, or that Rory has some kind of responsibility to Lindsay in this situation.  Ultimately, it's Dean who "opens" the door to cheating on his wife.  Rory may have made herself available, but it's not like he tripped and fell into her vagina. 

[shron17]

JP delivers his "Then it's *not* going to happen" like a man of conviction, out to stand his 20 feet of height and enforce his All-American boy will with directness.

Or, it could be interpreted as defiance as in "she's not going to tell me what to do."

 

If Rory knew that this was a secret relationship, Rory wouldn't have asked if Lindsay knew where Dean was.

Rory actually asked how was it Dean could be out like this, with her, or with anyone. Where did Lindsay think he was?  To me that sounds more like she knows he didn't tell her where he was but wonders what he did tell her.

 

I'm very mixed on that.  I don't like the idea of holding Rory responsible to make sure Dean is obeying his wife's directives, or that Rory has some kind of responsibility to Lindsay in this situation.  Ultimately, it's Dean who "opens" the door to cheating on his wife.  Rory may have made herself available, but it's not like he tripped and fell into her vagina.

True that, and I don't mean to hold Rory responsible for Dean's actions at all.  Who's to say he wouldn't have cheated on Lindsay with the next girl?  But I do hold her responsible for sleeping with someone who was married, and for the things she did to let him know she was open to that, even if subconsciously.  I guess I just think that anyone who expects to ever have a committed married relationship should never do that to someone else, no matter who it is.

Edited January 8, 2016 by shron17

[themoon411]

I don't think rory is to blame for dean's cheating. However, rory has the reputation of being nice, kind and special( luke is surprised she said hell). So while the other woman shouldn't get blamed for infedility, she certainly isn't getting any brownie points!!

[txhorns79]

True that, and I don't mean to hold Rory responsible for Dean's actions at all.  Who's to say he wouldn't have cheated on Lindsay with the next girl?  But I do hold her responsible for sleeping with someone who was married, and for the things she did to let him know she was open to that, even if subconsciously.  I guess I just think that anyone who expects to ever have a committed married relationship should never do that to someone else, no matter who it is.

 

I understand what you are saying, and I don't completely disagree.  Rory definitely made a huge mistake and ended up hurting people who did not deserve it.  She showed terrible judgment.  However, for me, I think the blame in the situation rests with the person who took the vow.         

Edited January 8, 2016 by txhorns79

[Melancholy]

Or, it could be interpreted as defiance as in "she's not going to tell me what to do."

 

Rory actually asked how was it Dean could be out like this, with her, or with anyone. Where did Lindsay think he was?  To me that sounds more like she knows he didn't tell her where he was but wonders what he did tell her.

 

I think it's ambiguous- whether it looked like Dean was going to insist to Lindsay that he can associate with who he wants and win that cause or whether he was going to lie to Lindsay. Admittedly, I watched S4 as it was airing real-time when I was, like, in early high school and maybe naive. However at the time, I was pretty sure that Dean meant that he was going to reverse Lindsay's ban on seeing Rory, not that he was telling Rory that he intended to sneak around with her. 

 

I actually do blame the The Other Woman/Other Man in an affair a lot. They may not have taken the "vow" but they are making a choice to hurt, at least, one person, even possibly the person that they're sleeping with and help break up a home. However, I only start really blaming them when they're actively pursuing the affair or then, when they get physical. That's where I can see the clear intent to break up a home. I don't see that kind of bad intent when it's about a woman spending time wth a married or otherwise attached friend. It's Rory's responsibility to not actively sleep with a married guy; it's not Rory's responsibility to not even call Dean when she's genuinely stranded because she doesn't know if Dean will admit to Lindsay that he's going to pick up Rory or lie about it and it's up to Rory to cut Dean out of her contacts because there's a possibility than he'll be a sneak about it even though Dean had a number of arguments to try make Lindsay comfortable with it or negotiate with her or include her. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Melancholy