Season 6: Speculation

[AshleyN]

I definitely feel it with the few fist-pumping moments they do give us. Most of them belong to Dany, currently. Like Dany getting her Unsullied, Dany riding the dragon, Dany "giving birth" to dragons, etc. A half-time example not involving Dany would be when Jaime went back for Brienne in the bear pit at then actually jumped into the thing with her. It was a standard act that heroes tend to do in other stories, but because it's Game of Thrones I 100% did not expect it (being unsullied at the time) and my reaction was pretty emphatic.

Isn't this the biggest reason why Wyman Manderly became such an instant fan favourite? Because after four books of the Starks being beaten down and beaten down and beaten down, of being told that trying to be a good person is foolish and futile while ruthlessness is the only way to triumph in this world, that moment where he reveals that he's not only totally loyal to the Starks, but also has the means and full intentions of making some of our villains face consequences for their actions, becomes incredibly powerful.

 

I admit that while I'm not as down on D&D as some fans are right now, this is the thing that worries me the most about their interpretation of the series -- that they don't "get" that side of it. Because while Martin may make you wait (and wait and wait) for those rare moments of justice or catharsis, he does give them out occasionally, whereas aside from Dany, those moments seem to be mostly missing from the show. Their version often seems more in line with the more pure nihilism that some people (IMO mistakenly) attribute to the series. I admit though that a lot of that stems from the loss of the Northern Resistance this year, which is why I'm hoping so much that some version of it at least makes its way back next year. I don't know how much that storyline means to the plot, but I think it's absolutely crucial on a thematic level. Having Littlefinger take over that plot with his Vale forces would be a disastrous choice, even if it did streamline things plot-wise.

Edited July 7, 2015 by AshleyN

[benteen]

Isn't this the biggest reason why Wyman Manderly became such an instant fan favourite? Because after four books of the Starks being beaten down and beaten down and beaten down, of being told that trying to be a good person is useless while ruthlessness is the only way to triumph in this world, that moment where he reveals that he's not only totally loyal to the Starks, but also has the means and full intentions of making some of our villains face consequences for their actions, becomes incredibly powerful.

 

I admit that while I'm not as down on D&D as some fans are right now, this is the thing that worries me the most about their interpretation of the series -- that they don't "get" that side of it. Because while Martin may make you wait (and wait and wait) for those rare moments of justice or catharsis, he does give them out occasionally, whereas aside from Dany, those moments seem to be mostly missing from the series. Their version often seems more in line with the more pure nihilism that some people (IMO mistakenly) attribute to the series. I admit though that a lot of that stems from the loss of the Northern Resistance this year, which is why I'm hoping so much that some version of it at least makes its way back next year. I don't know how much that storyline means to the plot, but I think it's absolutely crucial on a thematic level. Having Littlefinger take over that plot with his Vale forces would be a disastrous choice, even if it did streamline things plot-wise.

 

Agreed.  D&D tend to dwell on the misery and haven't given much in the way of good moments for the good characters.  They even turned one of the worst characters, Ramsay, into Super Ramsay, who is now such a badass he can easily defeat armies and superior generals without even wearing a shirt!

 

But considering that D&D don't consider Tywin to be an evil man (they feel only if your on the Starks side you might believe that) and excuse Cersei's behavior to her being a neurotic mother while Jaime is "a monster who loves killing", it's not a surprise.

[nksarmi]

I agree with you that we need some good stuff to happen but I disagree that about the bit in bold. I don't want bad stuff to just stop happening. For me that would feel unnatural, abrupt, and unrealistic.

 

As far as caring whether or not the Lannisters, Boltons, NW, etc have to deal with the Others--the villains are the main ones I'm interested in seeing react to the Others to be honest. It still kind of bums me out that we'll never know what Tywin would have done and how he would have reacted if the Others were essentially on his doorstep. Roose, I'd love to see how he'd react to the Others and dragons. Cersei too. Littlefinger? Hell to the yes. 

 

I really want episode six to open with a bang but most of the things that I want to see happen would likely be deemed depressing by some. I don't necessarily need characters to be happy or see good things happen to them in order to be entertained. It depends. In order for the action to pop off in King's Landing I feel like House Tyrell finally has to take some hits even though they're considered to be mostly "good" characters. It's also likely better story wise for Cersei to win her trial even though she's considered to be a villain. 

 

If Sansa only has good things happen to her from here on out, I'm not sure how exciting that will necessarily be.

 

I agree though that it sucks that they couldn't have at least indicated that Sansa and Theon survived their fall. That has to suck for an Unsullied viewer on top of all of the other bad things that happened. I also agree that it would have been better to fast forward Dany's story so that Drogon was with her and protecting her rather than us getting a set up where it looks like Dany is going to have to be rescued by Jorah and Daario. 

 

Hecate, I might be the one who isn't remembering it right. I thought that he just promised not to kill her early on but that towards the very end that most bets are off save for a character like Rickon and two or three others. 

Oh my word, if Sansa only had good things happen to her from now on - it would make her story so much better in my opinion - I can't watch any one character suffer too long (that's why Theon/Reek has lost all interest for me and I hope they kill him off soon). 

 

But when I said it's time for bad things to stop happening - I didn't really mean for the entire series (we have to get to the Others at some point and I'm sure that will involve a big ass war) - I just mean for a few episodes.  You have to build the heroes up a bit before the final conflict - at least narratively I would think that would be helpful.  Of course, this is all assuming that the story is all leading to where I think it is, but allow me a few assumptions that could end up being totally wrong:

 

If Jon is going to fight in the final battle, they have to resurrect him, tell us about his parents, have him find light bringer (?), and all the other stuff of legend to prepare him for the final fight. 

 

If Dany is going to win the Iron Throne and/or help defeat the Others, she can't be the damsel in distress that she appears to be at the end of season five - she has to become a warrior queen who leaves Meereen strong and marches to Westerous from a place of strength (or at least I think she does - it would seem odd for her to go there after Meereen dissolves into chaos and expect people to take her seriously just because she has dragons in my opinion).

 

If Sansa is an end-game character and is somehow of importance, she has to DO something other than be some man's victim.  Now I admit, it is a huge assumption on my part that she will matter in the end - she might not.  But I remain hopeful that her learning about Rickon and Bran this season is significant somehow to the next step she takes in her show journey (I have ZERO interest in her in the books at this point).

 

If Ayra is going to get wrapped back into the main plot, she has to leave the Faceless Men for some reason or another and I would think, she needs to reclaim needle and her heritage.  Other people have described some really sucky things that could happen with her, but I hope it just ends with her being Ayra Stark at Winterfell, married to no one because she wouldn't want that.

 

And there are many other characters - who if they matter - must start moving in a positive direction rather than spinning their wheels, moping around, or whatever pointless activity he has most of the characters currently engaged in. 

 

But I'm not sure we mean the same thing when we say "good things."  Let's take Tyrion of example - I don't feel like show Tyrion has experienced too many hits.  His book counterpart is a different story.  But while show Tyrion has gone through some bad stuff, he has come out on top.  And we don't ever really have to watch him suffer.  Instead, we watch him use his intellect, cunning, and wit to get himself out of bad situations and in some cases, help a lot of others out along the way.  I'd like to see a few other characters get his show treatment - where bad things happen to them, but they overcome.

 

Also, and I think this is important, some villains need to start taking some hits.  I could care less what Roose or Littlefinger do when the Others come because I'm 99% sure I already know and it won't impress me.  Roose will work with his enemies to overcome the greater threat all the while maneuvering to keep himself on top OR he'll run like a coward.  It's a coin toss for me.  Littlefinger will seize control of whatever he can and try to use it for his advantage because all he cares about is himself.  I'd much rather Roose be defeated by Brie, Ramsey by Jon, and Littlefinger by Sansa - that would be interesting in my opinion.

[Audreythe2nd]

But considering that D&D don't consider Tywin to be an evil man (they feel only if your on the Starks side you might believe that) and excuse Cersei's behavior to her being a neurotic mother while Jaime is "a monster who loves killing", it's not a surprise.

 

You know, I keep hearing about this, but I can't help but wonder if D&D are just being really fucking ironic, because with everything you've listed up there, the opposite is proving to be true. Tywin has always been highly evil, but super entertaining (Charles Dance is my fave - I could have watched him in that role forever) and basically the last actions of his that we ever see involve ruthlessly screwing over his younger son in all the worst ways imaginable. So yeah, clearly, undeniably evil. I don't care how many people say Cersei is softened in the show compared to the books - it's just made me want to NOT read the books in any great detail, because I don't know how much more terrible one woman could possibly be based on what I'm seeing on the show. Her love for her kids does not come across as D&D trying to excuse her behaviour - it comes across to me as the thing that is going to destroy her completely in the end. She's terrible in the show. I get it. I don't need her to be any worse, seriously. And Jaime, while they said he's a "monster who loves killing" this was during Season 2, and I suspect they were trying to both maybe forshadow and also mask the fact that he was going to be on a redemption arc from Season 3 onwards. That one clumsily filmed/acted scene in Season 4 aside (the sept "rape" scene), all one has to do is watch any of Jaime's scenes from the bathtub onward, well into Season 4 and 5 and realize he is not the same person (eg. Oathkeeper scene with Brienne + their goodbye, the scene at the end of Season 5 with Myrcella) He's a fluffy bunny in comparison to how he was, and in comparison to Cersei. So I wonder, again, if there was just some level of irony D&D were trying to convey in those quotes, because the opposite ended up being true for the characters mentioned. Future example of this: "Dead is dead" re: Jon Snow. Because like hell it is. 

 

I'd much rather Roose be defeated by Brie, Ramsey by Jon, and Littlefinger by Sansa - that would be interesting in my opinion.

 

That would be great, actually. And I can see it happening, in spite of the current gloom and doom of the show. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[BlackberryJam]

Stannis was a pretty bad guy and he took a serious hit. I mean, he burned people alive in front of his daughter then torched his own daughter. I think that defines him as VERY BAD GUY. Sure, his army was defeated by someone worse. But Stannis was killed by someone no one defines as a villain, Brienne. (Cersei doesn't count.)

Speaking of Cersei, she was arrested, tortured and forced to walk naked through town and she is also on the villain side.

Oh and Littlefinger, his economic base in KL is destroyed by the Faith.

The baddies have taken plenty of hits and one has been eliminated from the game in S5.

And why in the world should SANSA of all characters get the "too many bad things before, now only gets good things" pass? SANSA? Really? She's only done ONE positive thing for another character EVER. (Dontos.) She spent seasons bitching at people, sniffling around KL, making stupid decisions, before being Boltonized.

I mean, let's take Jaime. He was held prisoner for a year, had his hand cut off, watched his son die and watched his daughter die. Why doesn't he get the good things pass? Okay...he's kind of an ass and did bad things, but he saved Brienne more than once and enabled her to go find Sansa, saving Podrick in the process and negotiated for Bronn in Dorne.

Or Theon? Good god, Theon. If anyone has suffered enough, it's Theon. (And I hate Theon.) But sure, he killed kids, betrayed people, blah blah. Still more worthy.

But how about Grey Worm? Had his balls cut off, tortured, trained, repressed, beaten, stabbed and in love with a woman and can never BE with her.

But Sansa is the one deemed worthy of the good things pass? Uh. No. She has plenty more to suffer before she reaches the proper suffering level to get a good things pass.

[nksarmi]

Stannis was a pretty bad guy and he took a serious hit. I mean, he burned people alive in front of his daughter then torched his own daughter. I think that defines him as VERY BAD GUY. Sure, his army was defeated by someone worse. But Stannis was killed by someone no one defines as a villain, Brienne. (Cersei doesn't count.)

Speaking of Cersei, she was arrested, tortured and forced to walk naked through town and she is also on the villain side.

Oh and Littlefinger, his economic base in KL is destroyed by the Faith.

The baddies have taken plenty of hits and one has been eliminated from the game in S5.

And why in the world should SANSA of all characters get the "too many bad things before, now only gets good things" pass? SANSA? Really? She's only done ONE positive thing for another character EVER. (Dontos.) She spent seasons bitching at people, sniffling around KL, making stupid decisions, before being Boltonized.

I mean, let's take Jaime. He was held prisoner for a year, had his hand cut off, watched his son die and watched his daughter die. Why doesn't he get the good things pass? Okay...he's kind of an ass and did bad things, but he saved Brienne more than once and enabled her to go find Sansa, saving Podrick in the process and negotiated for Bronn in Dorne.

Or Theon? Good god, Theon. If anyone has suffered enough, it's Theon. (And I hate Theon.) But sure, he killed kids, betrayed people, blah blah. Still more worthy.

But how about Grey Worm? Had his balls cut off, tortured, trained, repressed, beaten, stabbed and in love with a woman and can never BE with her.

But Sansa is the one deemed worthy of the good things pass? Uh. No. She has plenty more to suffer before she reaches the proper suffering level to get a good things pass.

[nksarmi]

Ack I am so bad at doing this on my phone but....

I didn't say Sansa deserved a pass. I said I think it would make her more interesting. Right now she is just a character that men hit or use or condesend to or rape. Seeing good things happen around herand to her like finding rickon, rallying the north to defeat the boltons, and finding no need for littlefinger in her life wouldn be far more interesting than any story she has had to date.

[nksarmi]

And on the show, I have a hard time counting stannis because they made you like him and then fast forwarded his villany which many fans don't believe can happen like that in the books.

[BlackberryJam]

I still disagree. Sansa's story only got interesting once she got to Winterfell. Before that, she was boring and useless. Having good things happen to her now, without her having to work her ass off and suffer for it, would turn her back into Little Miss Sominex.

I would MUCH rather see Sansa have to plot, scheme, suffer and manipulate to squeak out one or two good things than to have have only good things happen to her from this point on.

ETA: I mostly loved Stannis, but he was in absolutely no way a good guy. I didn't love him because he was a good guy. I loved him because seeing him on my screen entertained me. Not once did I think, "you know, that Stannis, the one who BURNS PEOPLE ALIVE, is a really good guy." It was more like, "Stannis, your grammar fetish is cracking my ass up, but you're still a flesh pyromaniac. Now grind your teeth so I can giggle some more."

Edited July 7, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[FurryFury]

I think it's not that she needs for good things to happen to her - it's just that she needs a win. Because if she doesn't get a win and continues to be a boring helpless victim, a perpetual damsel in distress, it will feel annoying and repetitive. And I'm saying it as a person who doesn't really like Sansa - but wants her to have a purpose in the plot. I also hate helpless women as a trope, especially if they're main characters. It's high time to actually give Sansa more development, and a big, climactic winning moment like manipulating somebody or even killing them would be great. I don't even care if she does something bad, as long as it's something proactive.

[nksarmi]

I still disagree. Sansa's story only got interesting once she got to Winterfell. Before that, she was boring and useless. Having good things happen to her now, without her having to work her ass off and suffer for it, would turn her back into Little Miss Sominex.

I would MUCH rather see Sansa have to plot, scheme, suffer and manipulate to squeak out one or two good things than to have have only good things happen to her from this point on.

ETA: I mostly loved Stannis, but he was in absolutely no way a good guy. I didn't love him because he was a good guy. I loved him because seeing him on my screen entertained me. Not once did I think, "you know, that Stannis, the one who BURNS PEOPLE ALIVE, is a really good guy." It was more like, "Stannis, your grammar fetish is cracking my ass up, but you're still a flesh pyromaniac. Now grind your teeth so I can giggle some more."

I still don't think I am fundamentally disagreeing with you accept that I don't necessarily need to see Sansa become a schemer or manipulator.  I'd much rather see her show (rather than tell me) that she has developed a sense of being able to judge people and perhaps inspire people and she uses those skills to rally the North and find Rickon.  Again, I didn't say I wanted her to just have a roses and butterflies story and I'm ok seeing her work and even suffer as long as it is for good results.

 

What I have no desire to see for Sansa anymore is that she suffers for the sake of suffering which I think has been the essential aspect of her story for years now.  Early on, I thought she was a silly girl living in a dream world that had to go through some suffering to teach her reality and help her grow up. But now?  Now it just seems like overkill unless she comes out ahead at some point. 

 

I mean for goodness sake, I don't want to see Theon suffer anymore and he actually did some pretty bad shit.  You could argue that Sansa did as well, except that was more in the books than the show and it apparently came off in a way the writer did not intend when he wrote it (which is why it was removed from the show).  So with that in mind, yea Theon did some pretty bad stuff and I'm over his suffering as well.  I don't need him to be redeemed, but I'd be happy for him if he got to die a hero and find some peace.  I think of all the characters on the show, I pity him the most.

 

Regarding Stannis - it's not so much that I liked him, but I didn't hate him and I never got a sense that he personally liked burning people alive.  I saw him as a much lesser evil than Ramsey or Littlefinger.  But then they had him burn his daughter and well crap, what do I do with that?  And it kind of bums me out that of all the characters that they fast forwarded into book 6 territory - they choose to do it to someone who fans didn't necessarily see as evil and then punish/kill him.  How does that balance out all the other depressing shit that happened in the finale?  And I also don't count Cersei because a) the FM are likely as bad as she is, b) they made her crimes in the show significantly less than the books (and she really is a much, much worse character in the books), and c) no matter how much shit she went through on the walk of shame, at the end of the show you can a real sense that the crazy bitch is going to win.  So yea, I do not count that as a win for the good guys AT ALL.

I think it's not that she needs for good things to happen to her - it's just that she needs a win. Because if she doesn't get a win and continues to be a boring helpless victim, a perpetual damsel in distress, it will feel annoying and repetitive. And I'm saying it as a person who doesn't really like Sansa - but wants her to have a purpose in the plot. I also hate helpless women as a trope, especially if they're main characters. It's high time to actually give Sansa more development, and a big, climactic winning moment like manipulating somebody or even killing them would be great. I don't even care if she does something bad, as long as it's something proactive.

Exactly - Sansa's story has become "oh look, Sansa is suffering and being abused....must be Sunday" and that is so very boring!!!!!

[Avaleigh]

I'd like to see Sansa have an honest conversation with Brienne next season. When Brienne tells her that Arya is very much alive, have Sansa talk about her regret over siding with Joffrey over the incident at the Trident. Have Sansa mention how much her brother Bran once wanted to be a knight. Throw in a reminder of the remaining direwolves. Have Sansa talk about Ned's death and have Brienne caution Sansa about Littlefinger. Have Sansa talk about Tyrion being surprisingly kind and then get Brienne talking to Sansa about Tyrion's brother.

I so want this conversationto happen next season.

[BlackberryJam]

I'd like to see Sansa have an honest conversation with Brienne next season. When Brienne tells her that Arya is very much alive, have Sansa talk about her regret over siding with Joffrey over the incident at the Trident. Have Sansa mention how much her brother Bran once wanted to be a knight. Throw in a reminder of the remaining direwolves. Have Sansa talk about Ned's death and have Brienne caution Sansa about Littlefinger. Have Sansa talk about Tyrion being surprisingly kind and then get Brienne talking to Sansa about Tyrion's brother.

I so want this conversationto happen next season.

 

I could be on board with a conversation of character growth. But I disagree about her needing a win. I think she's gotten a win in that's she's no longer Snivel von Moperson. She stood up to Myranda, she pitted Ramsay against Roose and made him question his security as heir, she bullied valuable information out of Theon (that was an amazing positive for her) she escaped her cell, and then she stared down someone pointing a deadly weapon at her, inspiring a doormat to actually DO something and then she made a choice to jump. Sansa became an active participant in her own story this season and it was pretty fucking great. Season 5 Sansa is far and away the best Sansa has ever been on the show. 

[Avaleigh]

I like season 2 Sansa too. She was great in the Blackwater episode.

I thought Sansa's storyline was pretty riveting this season I just think that the rape ended up hijacking a lot of the discussion. The dinner with the Boltons was easily one of my favorite scenes from this season. I liked the encounter with Brienne too even if I did find it to be a bit frustrating.

ETA

I should never post from my phone.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Avaleigh

[BlackberryJam]

Oh yes, the dinner with the Boltons was a great scene. The pre-rape convo between Ramsay and Sansa was great, watching her scrambling to find a way to get the upper hand, although she ultimately failed. Even her crypt scene with Baelish was good, when she dangled her hymen in front of him like a prize, although she failed to get him to back out or do something to stop the consummation. 

 

Sansa had one of the very best stories this season and I think it really shows how D&D love the character in that they took her unmanageable and dull Vale story line and gave her much thought-provoking and substantial. 

 

Writers who love their characters torture them all the time. It's called "writing angst" and GRRM does it with far more glee than D&D could ever imagine.

Oh and Brienne's AFfC story is all about her going the wrong direction, making the wrong decision and failing when it comes to the Stark girls. The show encapsulated those 8 (I think?) chapters into about 7 minutes of screen time. So though it was hard to watch that Brienne and Sansa convo, it packed all the punch of her endless Riverlands wanderings.

Edited July 7, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[FemmyV]

 

Season 5 Sansa is far and away the best Sansa has ever been on the show.

 

That's just not saying a whole lot.

[nksarmi]

Oh yes, the dinner with the Boltons was a great scene. The pre-rape convo between Ramsay and Sansa was great, watching her scrambling to find a way to get the upper hand, although she ultimately failed. Even her crypt scene with Baelish was good, when she dangled her hymen in front of him like a prize, although she failed to get him to back out or do something to stop the consummation. 

 

Sansa had one of the very best stories this season and I think it really shows how D&D love the character in that they took her unmanageable and dull Vale story line and gave her much thought-provoking and substantial. 

 

Writers who love their characters torture them all the time. It's called "writing angst" and GRRM does it with far more glee than D&D could ever imagine.

Oh and Brienne's AFfC story is all about her going the wrong direction, making the wrong decision and failing when it comes to the Stark girls. The show encapsulated those 8 (I think?) chapters into about 7 minutes of screen time. So though it was hard to watch that Brienne and Sansa convo, it packed all the punch of her endless Riverlands wanderings.

I just expected so much MORE from Sansa's story in season five.  Not because she's a great book character or has been all that interesting to date on the show - I just kept defending the writer's choice that if they were putting Sansa in the JP role, it would be more significant than the book version of that story.  And well, between the dropping of the Northern resistance and the Ghost of Winterfell and such - I just turned out to be so very wrong.  I could go over to other threads and just read countless posts where I insisted that Sansa's plot this season was going to have big payoff.  Of course, I also thought the Dorne story was going to have some big payoff and oopsie - I was totally wrong about THAT one as well.

 

So I find myself disappointed, but that is perhaps because I allowed my expectations to rise too high.  I do agree that it was her most interesting season to date, but unfortunately - that really isn't saying much.

[SeanC]

But I disagree about her needing a win. I think she's gotten a win in that's she's no longer Snivel von Moperson. She stood up to Myranda, she pitted Ramsay against Roose and made him question his security as heir, she bullied valuable information out of Theon (that was an amazing positive for her) she escaped her cell, and then she stared down someone pointing a deadly weapon at her, inspiring a doormat to actually DO something and then she made a choice to jump. Sansa became an active participant in her own story this season and it was pretty fucking great. Season 5 Sansa is far and away the best Sansa has ever been on the show. 

The scene of her "standing up to Myranda" exists only to demonstrate how wrong Sansa is, as Myranda is proven right about everything, and even throws Sansa's own bravado back in her face in the later scene when she uses the "your father was warden of the North" line as an ironic reminder that she's in for a lifetime of rape and mutilation rather than the death she's been so beaten down so as to prefer.  She did not "pit Ramsay against Roose"; Ramsay glowered for a second, and then went back about his business with no consequences.  She didn't stare down Myranda, who was perfectly fine with killing her and gained the upper hand, and Theon saving her was not anything she intended, nor anything different that she's done before, since she inspired similar actions from the Hound; by the same token, she was just ranting at Theon and he spilled relevant information she had no idea existed.  The one thing she actively did all season was open a door, and even that failed and required her to be rescued.

 

I don't see how Sansa could possibly be considered an active participant.  She was lead around by the nose by Littlefinger, and then as soon as the show had jumped through the hoops necessary to get her to Winterfell she did nothing but sit around sulking, get raped and abused, and then fail at escaping before getting rescued.  It was a complete rerun of her Season 2 story, except with rape and Sansa glowering more openly.  Indeed, considering that she was urged to go there to "avenge them", and that she began the season in a position of security that the book version has never had, her completely failure to even mildly inconvenience her enemies for a minute is all the more glaring.

 

I'd also disagree with the idea that this is the best season for the character.  She was far smarter in season 2, when she knew not to insult psychopaths to their faces, and appeared to be on an upward learning trajectory; even season 4's last-minute character development was better.

Edited July 7, 2015 by SeanC

[Hecate7]

Sansa's great.

 

And it kind of bums me out that of all the characters that they fast forwarded into book 6 territory - they choose to do it to someone who fans didn't necessarily see as evil and then punish/kill him.  How does that balance out all the other depressing shit that happened in the finale?

 

 

That is the big clue to how this story works. We don't really know who the good guys are, and who the bad guys are. Just because someone is our favorite, doesn't mean they're not actually a bad guy. We were supposed to think Stannis was a good guy. And actually, he sort of was, but he gradually became a bad guy--so gradually we didn't even notice.

 

I expect the same thing to happen to several of the good guys, even as the reverse happens to a couple of the bad guys. (NOT BAELSISH--I really want no redemption for him. Not that I get a vote, but if I did....)

[SeanC]

Oh yes, the dinner with the Boltons was a great scene. The pre-rape convo between Ramsay and Sansa was great, watching her scrambling to find a way to get the upper hand, although she ultimately failed. Even her crypt scene with Baelish was good, when she dangled her hymen in front of him like a prize, although she failed to get him to back out or do something to stop the consummation. 

What was great about the dinner scene?  She's meant to be winning allies (or whatever), and all she does is make clear that she dislikes all of them.  Floundering around before she gets raped just puts her in the exact same hopeless spot she was in before, and I don't see anything to suggest she's trying to find a way to get the upper hand.  Same with the idea of her "dangling her hymen" -- there is nothing to suggest she said that with any motive to get something out of Baelish (indeed, after last season ended with the indication that she was going to be playing against Baelish while also working with him, this season she just credulously does whatever he says and never manifests anything resembling her own agenda or attempt to assert herself with him).

 

When the show wants to depict a character engaging in manipulation, they are sledgehammer-unsubtle (much like most of their manipulators).  If we were meant to think she was trying to manipulate Baelish, or Ramsay, or whoever, they would not confine this supposed manipulation to a single line in the middle of a conversation that had no impact or followup in the narrative.

Edited July 7, 2015 by SeanC

[BlackberryJam]

What, SeanC? What? Sansa's line to Baelish couldn't have been more of a sledgehammer. That line basically smacked us in the face of "I know you want me, you're about to lose me, are you sure you want that?"  I sometimes feel like we are watching a totally different show. Sansa's scenes are blatantly obvious, if not particularly clever or successful, attempts at manipulation. That's what made her not suck.

 

But well...it does seem that there is consensus that Sansa does mostly suck. (YES!) Even if she's beloved by some.

 

But that scene on the parapet was the only time ever I have felt a fist pump moment for Sansa. I certainly never felt it during any of her whingy times in KL. You can disagree SeanC, sure, but S2 Sansa was a total and complete bore with all that sniffling and moping and bad decisionmaking. Ugh. I actively wanted her dead that season. She has improved greatly in her level of interesting.

 

Which is where I can see the "but Stannis wasn't a bad guy" stuff coming from. Stannis was a terrible guy. He was just an interesting and fun terrible guy that I loved having on my screen. 

 

Sure, we hate it when our favorites die, but it's not like Stannis was one of the good guys. (If there even are good guys.)

[nksarmi]

Sansa's great.

 

 

That is the big clue to how this story works. We don't really know who the good guys are, and who the bad guys are. Just because someone is our favorite, doesn't mean they're not actually a bad guy. We were supposed to think Stannis was a good guy. And actually, he sort of was, but he gradually became a bad guy--so gradually we didn't even notice.

 

I expect the same thing to happen to several of the good guys, even as the reverse happens to a couple of the bad guys. (NOT BAELSISH--I really want no redemption for him. Not that I get a vote, but if I did....)

Definitely NOT Baelish, but honestly he isn't written in such a way that I could believe it anyway.

 

Frankly, the only "bad guy" I could personally see being redeemed at this point is Jamie.  And unfortunately, I think he is going to die.  I would love to be optimistic enough to believe he and Brie might end up together, but I just don't think that's going to happen.  I might be ecstatic if we even get to see them together again.

 

I don't see any kind of redemption in the cards for the likes of Roose, Ramsey, Cersei, LF, Mel, or the Faith Militant group.  Oh yea and almost everyone on the Night's Watch (I think Edd is the only one alive and at the Wall since Sam took off) is dead to me.  That doesn't mean I think they will all die - I just can't see them redeeming those characters for me.  Am I missing any black hats?

 

I guess they can go anywhere with Euron (if that's who the casting call is describing) at this point, but I suspect he will be a pretty solid black hat.  I guess if we count Ellaria and the sand snakes as black hats, they might be redeemable, but I'm not sure I care enough about what happens to them. 

 

As complex as the book series tries to make characters - for me - I think Stannis and Jamie were the only grey characters who this series could have gone either way with - most of the other people seem pretty white or black hat to me.

 

I could see more good guys moving into the black hat camp though - Ayra's murder was pretty disturbing.  It's not that she killed him - it's how.  That was the first time I saw what other people see when they say she has become a complete psychopath.  Many people already question Dany and if she is a black hat or not.  Show Tyrion seems like a pretty solid white hat even though his book version is more gray. 

 

I hate to say this, but ultimately I just don't think characters like the Tywells are going to matter.  Good or bad, I think they'll end up dead or just disappear.

[ElizaD]

Season 2 Sansa is superior by far to season 5 Sansa, who acted like a complete idiot despite being older and more experienced. She agreed to marry a Bolton, did absolutely nothing to avenge her family (at least season 2 Sansa tried to goad Joffrey into fighting and showed a little bit of leadership when dealing with the other women), and in the end she passively waited for Myranda to decide whether she wanted to kill her or maim her before giving her back to Ramsay. Sansa, of her own free will (as ridiculous as it is, they said Littlefinger gave her a real choice despite not telling her about the plan until they were in the North), gave the Boltons a completely unnecessary extra opportunity to degrade the Starks: she was raped in her home and tried to escape it because she was too stupid to have stayed away in the first place and too worthless to achieve anything once she got there. Whether major POV Sansa or minor character Jeyne goes to Winterfell, the result is exactly the same: Ramsay rapes his imprisoned bride, who escapes because Theon turns on their abuser, and he does that whether she's angry like Show Sansa or broken like Book Jeyne, showing that Sansa can claim no credit for his decision. Sansa has been wrecked as a character and though the storyline seemed to be setting her up to achieve something, probably to do with the Vale's army and resources, she's a sad yet total joke now. It's season 5 of 7/8 and she continues to be absolutely useless! That's not love for a character. Just compare the portrayal of her inability to be anything but a puppet subjected to manipulation, abuse and rape to Ramsay's ridiculous victories over dangerous opponents or Tyrion's peerless moral virtue and political wisdom.

 

The Winterfell storyline didn't show an active Sansa, it showed a passive and ultimately suicidal Sansa who was forced to admit to Myranda that she'd lost and even her tiny bit of sass before the wedding had been useless. She went to Winterfell when she didn't need to and as a result she was raped by a Bolton. In return for lifelong trauma associated with sex and what used to be her happy childhood home, she got what exactly? News about Bran and Rickon - in the books she'll get to find out they're alive with no Bolton rape required. Season 5 was a total failure for Sansa, who didn't even try to avenge her family: before being locked up to be raped, she spent her time letting others lead her about; after she was locked up, even her sullen "I'm a Stark and this is my home" attitude turned into an admission of defeat. Passivity, rape, the abandonment of Winterfell to the Boltons and finally submission to the henchwoman Myranda. Just like Sansa didn't try to avenge her family, when her escape attempt failed she didn't even try to overpower Myranda and create a messier situation in which she might hope to get herself killed: that would at least have been a defiant suicide and a denial of the Bolton plan to use her. Instead she just stands there and, knowing she's too valuable to kill, gives Myranda the chance to leisurely maim her before she's returned to Ramsay for more rape and punishment. She displayed zero people skills or character growth; she merely regressed and became an even more helpless puppet than before, even though she had a greater opportunity than at any time since season 1 to be free and in a position to influence people. Her only achievement is accidental: Theon would have decided to rescue Ramsay's bride even if she had been like Jeyne and too terrified to think of anything but pleasing him.

 

Sansa can't be salvaged after this season, but at least there's the chance to be positive about the Tower of Joy: Mesa Roldán looks like a potential filming location.

Edited July 7, 2015 by ElizaD

[SeanC]

What, SeanC? What? Sansa's line to Baelish couldn't have been more of a sledgehammer. That line basically smacked us in the face of "I know you want me, you're about to lose me, are you sure you want that?" 

Um, why would she be doing that?  At that point in the story, she wants to be in Winterfell.  That's why she agreed to go there.  There's no reason for her to be manipulating him like that.  That line is meant to signal her acquiescence to his plans.

 

But well...it does seem that there is consensus that Sansa does mostly suck. (YES!) Even if she's beloved by some.

She has vocal haters, but plenty of vocal fans (she made #11 on Tower of the Hand's most recent fan-voted character counterdown, for instance).

 

You can disagree SeanC, sure, but S2 Sansa was a total and complete bore with all that sniffling and moping and bad decisionmaking.

First, I should think one is entitled to be sad when one is trapped in King's Landing being pummeled regularly.  And what "bad decisionmaking"?  Due to the writers' gutting of her season 2 material, she hardly made any decisions at all that season, let alone bad ones.

Edited July 7, 2015 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

I thought there was something suggestive about Sansa's line to Petyr about how she'll be a married woman when he returns. It was her facial expression. I can't recall if that happened right after he kissed her or not but I think she was definitely curious as to how he'd respond to the idea of her now being sexually active.

I liked the dinner scene because I thought it said a lot about each character. With Sansa, I thought she handled herself well and I love the smirk she gives when she realizes that Ramsay is feeling put out over the news of Walda's pregnancy. She definitely followed up with trying to cause a little discord between father and son and I thought that was nice to see because it shows that she's learning. I disagree with the interpretation that it was tremendously stupid as opposed to being bold and calculated when she brought up the bastard issue. She knows Ramsay still needs her and, like Joffrey, he wants to keep her pretty at least for the foreseeable future because he feels like having a beautiful wife makes him look good.

With Roose I liked seeing that Ramsay gets on his nerves at times. I also like that we got a contrast of how Roose treats his wife versus how Ramsay treats Sansa.

[SeanC]

Season 2 Sansa is superior by far to season 5 Sansa, who acted like a complete idiot despite being older and more experienced.

The weirdest defence I've seen some people mount of Sansa's portrayal this season is that it's a positive development that she was more confident than before...even though that confidence was completely unwarranted.  

 

If anything, Sansa was more naive this season that she was in season 1; Season 1 Sansa thought that life was a fairy tale, whereas Season 5 Sansa knows it isn't and yet stakes everything on the idea that she's 'playing the game' and working to defeat her enemies by sitting around doing nothing (apart from glowering and occasionally snarking at them), which even Season 1 Sansa would have thought was ridiculous.

[BlackberryJam]

Season 2 Sansa is superior by far to season 5 Sansa, 

 

Disagree with this in every way, but tired of beating that dead horse. However, if we can agree that Sansa is terrible can we all agree we'd be fine if she died in S6?

 

Um, why would she be doing that?  At that point in the story, she wants to be in Winterfell.  That's why she agreed to go there.  There's no reason for her to be manipulating him like that.  That line is meant to signal her acquiescence to his plans.

 

No. Just no. That's a complete misinterpretation of the scene. 

 

 

She has vocal haters, but plenty of vocal fans (she made #11 on Tower of the Hand's most recent fan-voted character counterdown, for instance).

 

Do not care, especially about that, but not going to insult another board with a long list of specifics as to why.

 

 

First, I should think one is entitled to be sad when one is trapped in King's Landing being pummeled regularly.  And what "bad decisionmaking"?  Due to the writers' gutting of her season 2 material, she hardly made any decisions at all that season.

 

Dude, watch S2. Make a list. It's one after another. Take off the "precious Sansa/D&D are evil" glasses. I can't beat this dead horse anymore.

[SeanC]

No. Just no. That's a complete misinterpretation of the scene. 

What do you think she's trying to do, then?  She wants to be in Winterfell, because she's deluded herself into thinking she can do something there.

 

Dude, watch S2. Make a list. It's one after another. Take off the "precious Sansa/D&D are evil" glasses. I can't beat this dead horse anymore.

All of Sansa's appearances in season 2:

 

Episode 1 - saves Dontos, showing her cleverness and ability to manipulate a psychopath without being obvious about it.

Episode 3 - no decisions to speak of here.  She sits through an insulting dinner party, and is confounded by a sucktastic maid who she has every reason to believe is probably a spy, but decides to trust offscreen for seasons we're never told.  Other than that subsequent thing, no decisions to speak of.

Episode 4 - gets beaten up by Joffrey's knights.  Tyrion offers to break her betrothal, which she sensibly refuses on the basis that she has no reason to trust Tyrion and it could easily be some kind of trap [and because she needs to remain in a place to contact Dontos in order to effect her escape and therefore weighs her options and picks escape over temporary safety...oh wait, the show cut all that]

Episode 6 - almost gets raped.  No decisions to speak of.

Episode 7 - fails at hiding evidence of her period.  Gets lectured to by Cersei.  No decisions to speak of.

Episode 9 - shows some leadership potential, then declines to go with the Hound, who she has no reason to trust [because he's a raving drunkard who had just put a knife to her throat and comes across like a would-be rapist...oh right, the show cut all that]

Episode 10 - Plays along with her betrothal being broken off, and then wisely declines the help of Littlefinger, who is transparently a gigantic creep and who she has no reason to trust.

Edited July 7, 2015 by SeanC

[J----av]

ooh, wait ... here's one way to send Arya for a hit on Sansa:

 

Littlefinger is moving to gain, and consolidate, power. A lot of us are assuming he intends to load Sansa up with another title or two, and marry her. What if he imagines he can manipulate Dany or some other to-be-named female with strategic use? He won't have use for Sansa at that point, and will need a convenient way to get rid of her. And he has the money and connections, I'd bet, for a FM hit.

 

It would be a good point in the arc for the tables to finally be turned on LF, with Sansa emerging from Pawn to Playa.

 

  Once again, it would make no sense for the FM to send a untrained rookie to kill the Lord of the Vale's "daughter". GRRM is not that sloppy of a writer

[J----av]

If the next book/season doesn't involve some bad guys dying and some good guys triumphing, it's going to be really hard to care if the Others get over the Wall.  I don't know if the author or the show runners realize that next season needs to full of some serious high notes - but I think it does or no one is going to give a fig after that.  I mean really, why am I supposed to care if the Others break through and kill the NW who killed Jon?  Why am I supposed to care if they march south to Winterfell and destroy the Boltons?  Why am I supposed to care if they make it all the way to King's Landing and wipe out the Lannisters and the Faith Militant? 

 

When there is a huge looming threat, the only reason it matters is if your audience cares enough about the people being threatened that you want them to survive.  If you create a cast full of despicable people and kill off or destroy all the good characters, why would anyone bother to read your ending?  I don't know if GRRM is a romantic or not, but I think he and the show runners have brought us to a point where the bad shit needs to stop happening. 

 

I honestly thought they were going to be smart enough to toss us a bone in the finale and advance someone's plot in a positive way into book six territory - like have rather than end with Sansa and Theon jumping - have them meet up with Brie and Pod and have Sansa say "I'll be holding you to your vow of protection now."  Or show Drago land beside Dany and scare the crap out of the Dothraki or anything else that didn't leave everyone depressed and mopey and with no hope that anyone likable was going to make it through this mess.  But what do I know?  What do they do instead of all that?  They have Stannis burn Shireen, lose the battle of Winterfell, and (presumably) die.  What utter crap lol. 

 

The first episode of season six better be spectacular!  Bran with a vision of the Tower of Joy and Jon's true parentage.  Mel resurrecting Jon.  Brie gutting Ramsey while he tries to hunt down Sansa and Theon and Sansa asking Brie to help her find her brother, etc....

 

 Nah, Brienne needs to stop "killing" off better more complex characters (which is pretty much every character) then herself. If Ramsay is going to die, hopefully it will be at the hands of someone who has some kind of actual connection to him and not the walking cartoon character Brienne

[J----av]

Oh my word, if Sansa only had good things happen to her from now on - it would make her story so much better in my opinion - I can't watch any one character suffer too long (that's why Theon/Reek has lost all interest for me and I hope they kill him off soon). 

 

But when I said it's time for bad things to stop happening - I didn't really mean for the entire series (we have to get to the Others at some point and I'm sure that will involve a big ass war) - I just mean for a few episodes.  You have to build the heroes up a bit before the final conflict - at least narratively I would think that would be helpful.  Of course, this is all assuming that the story is all leading to where I think it is, but allow me a few assumptions that could end up being totally wrong:

 

If Jon is going to fight in the final battle, they have to resurrect him, tell us about his parents, have him find light bringer (?), and all the other stuff of legend to prepare him for the final fight. 

 

If Dany is going to win the Iron Throne and/or help defeat the Others, she can't be the damsel in distress that she appears to be at the end of season five - she has to become a warrior queen who leaves Meereen strong and marches to Westerous from a place of strength (or at least I think she does - it would seem odd for her to go there after Meereen dissolves into chaos and expect people to take her seriously just because she has dragons in my opinion).

 

If Sansa is an end-game character and is somehow of importance, she has to DO something other than be some man's victim.  Now I admit, it is a huge assumption on my part that she will matter in the end - she might not.  But I remain hopeful that her learning about Rickon and Bran this season is significant somehow to the next step she takes in her show journey (I have ZERO interest in her in the books at this point).

 

If Ayra is going to get wrapped back into the main plot, she has to leave the Faceless Men for some reason or another and I would think, she needs to reclaim needle and her heritage.  Other people have described some really sucky things that could happen with her, but I hope it just ends with her being Ayra Stark at Winterfell, married to no one because she wouldn't want that.

 

And there are many other characters - who if they matter - must start moving in a positive direction rather than spinning their wheels, moping around, or whatever pointless activity he has most of the characters currently engaged in. 

 

But I'm not sure we mean the same thing when we say "good things."  Let's take Tyrion of example - I don't feel like show Tyrion has experienced too many hits.  His book counterpart is a different story.  But while show Tyrion has gone through some bad stuff, he has come out on top.  And we don't ever really have to watch him suffer.  Instead, we watch him use his intellect, cunning, and wit to get himself out of bad situations and in some cases, help a lot of others out along the way.  I'd like to see a few other characters get his show treatment - where bad things happen to them, but they overcome.

 

Also, and I think this is important, some villains need to start taking some hits.  I could care less what Roose or Littlefinger do when the Others come because I'm 99% sure I already know and it won't impress me.  Roose will work with his enemies to overcome the greater threat all the while maneuvering to keep himself on top OR he'll run like a coward.  It's a coin toss for me.  Littlefinger will seize control of whatever he can and try to use it for his advantage because all he cares about is himself.  I'd much rather Roose be defeated by Brie, Ramsey by Jon, and Littlefinger by Sansa - that would be interesting in my opinion.

 

No more Brienne killing off better characters then herself!

[Avaleigh]

Nah, Brienne needs to stop "killing" off better more complex characters (which is pretty much every character) then herself. If Ramsay is going to die, hopefully it will be at the hands of someone who has some kind of actual connection to him and not the walking cartoon character Brienne

Hang on, how is Ramsay less of a cartoon character than Brienne?

I think Brienne has complexity. I think her relationship with Jaime is more complex than any relationship that Ramsay has with any character even Theon.

[benteen]

Like Stannis or hate him, it still annoys me how quickly D&D took him off the board, especially as a way of further putting over SUPER RAMSAY and giving Brienne a heroic moment by abandoning her oath.  It was a wasted opportunity for a character that should have been an amazing one on the show.

[FemmyV]

 

Sure, we hate it when our favorites die, but it's not like Stannis was one of the good guys. (If there even are good guys.)

Up until he allowed his daughter to be torched, Stannis at least stood a chance of redemption from Shadow Baby. Until Shireen went down, I'd say Stannis was a grey character, and history is written by the victors. If he's really dead, I will miss Stephen Dillane. He was a good, good Stannis.

 

 

Once again, it would make no sense for the FM to send a untrained rookie to kill the Lord of the Vale's "daughter". GRRM is not that sloppy of a writer

One word: access

 

 

Episode 1 - saves Dontos, showing her cleverness and ability to manipulate a psychopath without being obvious about it.

In 5 seasons, this was Sansa's sole benevolent act on another person's behalf that I can think of.  So, if you want to use this to say Season 2 Sansa was better, I'm with you, but it's still not saying much.

[MadMouse]

Like Stannis or hate him, it still annoys me how quickly D&D took him off the board, especially as a way of further putting over SUPER RAMSAY and giving Brienne a heroic moment by abandoning her oath.  It was a wasted opportunity for a character that should have been an amazing one on the show.

 

Unfortunately Stannis was the victim of the whole Northern story being gutted. The same with Brienne and Jaime in the Riverlands. I was worried about this when I saw how they handled the Red Wedding. It went from being a massacre of the Northern leadership, to one about Robb. Cat and Charlie Chaplin's ridiculously attractive granddaughter being killed. The same with no LSH, it left Brienne in the wind. And to a lesser extent Jaime.

Edited July 8, 2015 by MadMouse

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note Friendly Reminder:

 

 

This topic is for discussing what may happen or you would like to happen in S6 only.

 

Please use the character threads to discuss any character arcs, plotlines, behaviours or character development from previous seasons. 

 

Thanks.

[Hecate7]

  Once again, it would make no sense for the FM to send a untrained rookie to kill the Lord of the Vale's "daughter". GRRM is not that sloppy of a writer

 

She's not untrained. She's just not fully trained. I'm not suggesting it would be her very next assignment. A little more training would happen first. But this would be a MUCH easier hit than to take on a heavily guarded queen who has an army, dragons, and Varys and Tyrion Lannister among her advisors. Better assassins than she is have already failed, at least three times now.

 

Sansa's a much easier hit all round, than Danaerys will ever be. Especially when you take disguises and assimilation into account. She has to start somewhere, and any hit you could send her on, carries objections, such as, "who's gonna take out a hit on such an unimportant person?" for pretty much anyone who isn't some sort of heir to the throne. "Who needs to assassinate that person?" for anyone who could easily be taken out in an upfront manner.

 

More relevant, I think, to who Arya will be sent after, are questions such as, "Who are that person's enemies, and are they the type who would send assasins?" More importantly, "would it be more useful for this person's enemies to send assassins, than to just do it themselves? What's it worth to them, to have that person dead?" The only people I can picture hiring the Faceless Men to rub out any characters we know, are Cersei, Varys, Olenna, and Littlefinger, and even then only if the person is too far away for them to kill. Sure, Cersei might hire someone to take out Roose, but I'll bet she'd rather take out Sansa. She wants Roose and Ramsey flayed. She'd be satisfied with strangling and beheading for Sansa. I think the reason she hasn't already hired Faceless Men to take out Olenna, Margaery, and Loras, is that she can do that herself without the expense, especially since money isn't enough in her case.

 

They will ask for service and/or one of her kids. She's only got one or two of those....assuming of course that Tommen hasn't already starved to death, and that Bronn or Trystane is carrying an antidote and Jaime is smart enough to start screaming for help in time. So, she can afford to kill three people tops, using the Faceless Men. They're going to be the people she thinks killed her child, or people she fears might kill the remaining two.

 

There is so much amateur assassination happening that one wonders about the real role of the Faceless Men in society. How many of them are there at a given time? How do they afford all their cool stuff? Are there any assignments they would refuse as not serving their god? How do they set their prices? We know that rich and poor alike can hire them, and yet Baelish said that it would be too expensive for Robert Baratheon. Perhaps he didn't just mean money there, either. I think we're going to learn a lot more about them next season.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Hecate7

[benteen]

Given Dany's weakness for kids (this is more of a book thing than a show thing) I think sending Arya to do the job would be easier than one would think.  I think Arya could get close to her.

[nksarmi]

Given Dany's weakness for kids (this is more of a book thing than a show thing) I think sending Arya to do the job would be easier than one would think.  I think Arya could get close to her.

I agree.  I fully expect Arya to get wrapped back into the main story via Dany, but I think she will prove loyal to Dany in the end. 

 

Of course, since my other guesses (Trystane equals Aegon and LF will arrive with Vale troops just in time to whip out both Stannis and Roose so Sansa will stay in WF have been proven so very wrong), I doubt this will happen either lol.  I'll tell you, it isn't often that I'm surprised and this show/books do surprise - just never in good ways (I would have never thought Stannis would burn Shireen like ever).

[Hecate7]

Whenever I want to speculate about what might happen next on this show, I ask myself two things. First, what would hurt me the most? (Then I cross my fingers it won't happen). Second, what would hurt the characters I like, the most?

 

Shireen being burnt was inevitable, once I grew to really like her, and once I began to waffle between Stannis and Danaerys, which one should have the Iron Throne.

[Chris24601]

Whenever I want to speculate about what might happen next on this show, I ask myself two things. First, what would hurt me the most? (Then I cross my fingers it won't happen). Second, what would hurt the characters I like, the most?

The second one is probably a pretty reasonable start point, but it needs to be tempered with GRRM is not an utter nihilist, he just thinks good things need to be really REALLY earned. Those two combined form writing maxim of "Everything you wanted in the worst possible way."

 

To that end; Jon must live.

 

He must live because death doesn't hurt as much as surviving and realizing you've been utterly betrayed by those you thought of as brothers and who are likely to try and hunt you down to finish the job if they learn you've survived. Throw in a crazy Red Witch groupie who is postively sure that this time she's guessed right and you're the chosen one and wants to burn your relatives alive to achieve victory and STILL needing to actually do something about the White Walkers only without even the support of the group that was ostensibly formed to fight them in the first place and Jon might legitimately wonder if being brought back from the dead was a reward or a punishment.

 

To that end; Sansa must live.

 

She must live because being dead is less awful than being hunted through the endless snow by a madman who's plan upon catching up is probably chopping off your limbs so you can't run away while he rapes you to death only to find that your last hope; sanctuary with the bastard half-brother you were never particularly fond of to begin with; is a false one because Jon is missing and presumed dead and the people still at Castle Black would probably just as soon sell you back to Ramsey for the reward if they don't just decide to rape you themselves. Oh, and at some point the White Walkers are going to show up too.

 

Things haven't gotten close to as awful as they could be and many of those things are indeed worse than death.

[CofCinci]

Arya: I wish you were coming with us.

Jon: Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle.

– Jon to Arya Stark, A Game of Thrones, Chapter 10, Jon II.

 

I believe that season six will give us the remaining Starks on their independent journeys back to the "same castle." 

[bunnyblue]

Welp, Chris24601, those fates would certainly be worse than death. D: Especially for Sansa.

 

<snip> Throw in a crazy Red Witch groupie who is postively sure that this time she's guessed right and you're the chosen one and wants to burn your relatives alive to achieve victory <snip>

 

The highlighted bit gave me an awful thought. Due to their proximity, I think that Sansa will be the first one to reunite with Jon. What if resurrected Jon is darker (more Targaryen-like) and he buys into the whole sacrificing relatives nonsense? Would he sacrifice Sansa - the sister he wasn't particularly close to - to Mel's fires for the greater good? Considering the show I'm watching, I wouldn't put it past GRRM and D&D.

[Hecate7]

I don't think he'd do it. Jon Snow is the only non-neutral, really good character. He certainly wouldn't sacrifice Sansa to end a snowstorm or to gain a throne. He might not even do it in order to end the white walker invasion. He would have to be absolutely, 100% sure it would end the whole onslaught in one fell swoop, and since it probably wouldn't, he wouldn't do it even to a stranger or an enemy, let alone to Sansa.

 

The one who is changing in that direction is our guaranteed survivor, Arya, who fortunately doesn't serve a god who wants people necessarily burned to death or suffering as they die, just as long as they die.

[nksarmi]

I don't think he'd do it. Jon Snow is the only non-neutral, really good character. He certainly wouldn't sacrifice Sansa to end a snowstorm or to gain a throne. He might not even do it in order to end the white walker invasion. He would have to be absolutely, 100% sure it would end the whole onslaught in one fell swoop, and since it probably wouldn't, he wouldn't do it even to a stranger or an enemy, let alone to Sansa.

 

The one who is changing in that direction is our guaranteed survivor, Arya, who fortunately doesn't serve a god who wants people necessarily burned to death or suffering as they die, just as long as they die.

LOL Jon being the only non-neutral, really good character (I think I could Dany in the books but I'd have to go back and reread to be sure and I won't do that lol) would be the perfect reason to bring him back "different" once he is resurrected.  I mean - I hope that doesn't happen, but I don't trust this story at all anymore.

[BlackberryJam]

Well, uh...Jon isn't a "good" character. He's likable and I wanted (sort of) for him to come out on top, but he betrayed his NW's vows and then turned around and betrayed Ygritte and the Wildlings only to unbetray them later and betray his brothers in the NW. That's a lot of betrayal and flipflopping for a "good" character. I understand his motivations, but that doesn't make him good.

 

But I present to you Samwell Tarly. Probably the ONLY truly good character left standing. And I say this with Brienne as my favorite.

[nksarmi]

Well, honestly, I think we can count not only Samwell, but also Gilly, baby Sam, Brienne, and Davos as well.

 

Jon at least gets the "mostly good and really trying to do the right thing and save as many people as possible" award with at least a nomination for "most selfless person" in the realm award.

[SeanC]

Well, uh...Jon isn't a "good" character. He's likable and I wanted (sort of) for him to come out on top, but he betrayed his NW's vows and then turned around and betrayed Ygritte and the Wildlings only to unbetray them later and betray his brothers in the NW. That's a lot of betrayal and flipflopping for a "good" character. I understand his motivations, but that doesn't make him good.

Jon did not "betray his NW's vows"; he pretended to betray them for the express purpose of surviving and bringing key information to the Watch.

Likewise, he did not betray the Wildlings. He was never loyal to them in the first place. They captured him, and he said what he needed to say to escape, much like Sansa in KL -- nobody seriously argues she "betrayed" the Lannisters.

As for the Bolton issue, that represents the great conflict between duty and the urge to do good.

Edited July 9, 2015 by SeanC

[Chris24601]

I think two other points need to made regarding Jon's goodness;

First, that book Jon and show Jon are a bit different. Show Jon may have "lain with a Wilding" but as Sam points out the vow is actually "take no wife and father no children" not "never have sex."

Likewise, as has been pointed out Jon only pretended loyalty to an enemy force until he could escape and bring intelligence back to the Watch. Its no more a betrayal than when a cop goes undercover to bust a criminal operation. The cop was never loyal to the criminals.

Finally on this point, while book Jon was shown to want to go rescue his 'sister' at Winterfell with Watch resources there was no such action taken by show Jon. Only the most myopic people out there (like Ollie and Thorne) could accuse Jon's plan to recruit Wildings to help against the Walkers (or at least keep them from being turned into wights the Watch would later have to fight) as anything other than acting in accord with his vows and in the best interests of the men under his command.

The second point regarding Jon's goodness is I think a distinction must be made between 'goodness' and 'honor.' If a vow required you to murder innocent people then following that vow would be honorable, but it would not be good. Likewise, sparing those same people would be dishonorable, but it would be the act of a good man.

Jon, particularly show Jon, is a GOOD man who does his best to be honorable, but is willing to set honor aside in the name of doing what's right. Honor would have demanded he let Mance continue to burn to death because the king demanded it, but he chose mercy over honor.

In terms of his vows I think a lot of it comes down to 'letter vs. spirit' and Jon consistently choosing the spirit over the letter. Men like Thorne wanted the letter of the law to confine 'the Realms of Men' to only those south of the Wall, while Jon held to the spirit that those born north of the Wall were Men just as much as those born south of of it.

The point being I think Jon is definitely amongst the good guys by a pretty wide margin in the show's canon and when he returns I do not expect that to change. He won't burn anyone (much less his family) at the stake just because some priestess of a faith he does not follow demands it.

The only thing I really expect to change about Jon is that, as the vows state, they end at his death, he will be free to put goodness before honor more freely as he rallies whomever he can to defend the Realms of Men (because after the finale my spec is that the Night Watch is going to get obliterated by the Walkers at some point during season six.

My speculation on s6 related to this is that I think the plot in the north next year might involve Jon and Sansa each trying to gather what strength they can before 'meeting in the middle' at Winterfell. Jon will probably start with the Wildlings in his camp, plus Davos and the Red Witch (whom I hope gets a serious dose of humble pie as Jon proves to not need her in any way, shape or form, culminating in Davos learning what she did to Shireen and gutting her like a trout) and will probably get aid from Bran/CotF at some point (my bet is that Jon and the Wildlings head to the Nightfort which has its own godswood which Bran could probably see/speak through to give Jon intel on Winterfell via its godswood). Maybe he also starts gathering some of the Northern Lords, but I think that's gonna be more Sansa's thing.

In terms of meeting in the middle I think Sansa's arc could be uniting the Northern Lords against the Boltons which would serve as payoff for all the "The North Remembers" elements in s5.

An alternate theory I have is that perhaps instead of heading North, Sansa heads south to the Riverlands and starts rallying the allies of House Tully and perhaps the Brotherhood Without Banners. Replacing Lady Stoneheart with Sansa rallying the BwB against Bolton allies might be a way to run that arc without having Cat resurrected into a gastly revanant.

One other piece of spec I have for S6 is that I don't think Ramsey is going to be as pervasive as has been now that he's lost his supporting cast to torment; Myranda dead and Sansa and Theon having escaped. There's only so much you can do with him chasing down Sansa and Theon. Personally I'm hoping Ramsey catches up to them just as Jon tracks Sansa down and ends up going down hard to Jon (though if Theon and Sansa got to deliver the deathblow I'd be down for that too).

[J----av]

Hang on, how is Ramsay less of a cartoon character than Brienne?

I think Brienne has complexity. I think her relationship with Jaime is more complex than any relationship that Ramsay has with any character even Theon.

 

 Never said he wasn't. I said he was better and more complex. Brienne's relationship with Jamie is basically her falling in love with the second hot guy who was nice to her after she fell in love with the first one. And i was more talking about NOW. Ramsay is a far from perfect character but his relationship with his father and Reek is more complex then anything Brienne has had going in a long time. Especially in the books with Reek 1 and 2. Ramsay also is far more important to the story.

 

  Brienne killing Ramsay would just be another "we need to kill _____ guy off. Better send in Brienne i guess". She would probably just randomly run into him too