Books vs Show

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

I'll finish the show though, curious to see if it will end the same as book 3.

Haven't read the books, but am curious about book 3. How does it end?

[Guest]

Haven't read the books, but am curious about book 3. How does it end?

They overthrow Pilcher and decide they need to get out of Idaho for food.  But for some reason they decide to put that off for 70,000 years and go back into cryo.  

 

I was going to see this series through on fox.com but I just don't care enough to bother with their annoying ads that lock up my browser half the time.  It seems like this is what I say about every new show I watch lately but... I'm out.  

Edited July 4, 2015 by Guest

[ottoDbusdriver]

Even though I was planning to be unspoiled by the books, I started reading them anyway after last Thursday's episode and just finished.

 

Gotta say that the book was even more ridiculous than the TV show at times  But it does seem like they intentionally tossed a bunch of nonsense into the TV show just for the sake of making it seem even more mysterious, stuff that has nothing to do with nothing (I blame the screenwriters for that nonsense).  But so many things went unanswered in the book, I'm expecting the TV show to do the same.

 

The Fetes in the book come off as even more ridiculous than the Reckonings on the show.  Almost like a cross between Logan's Run and Mardi Gras.  And in the book they never did explain why they put the victims of the Fetes in that one house and left to rot.

 

The one thing that really threw me was the nightclub in the cave 300-400 ft. up the cliffs -- how would Pilcher's surveillance apparatus not notice people climbing the cliff walls, even just in random scans (because we know they had night-vision capabilities)?  And then not notice them climbing back down again.  It's almost like the surveillance team were being purposely oblivious when they should have been on the lookout constantly for intrusions by abbies. Plus how could they haul all that stuff up to the cave ?

 

Pilcher killing his own daughter in a cruel and sadistic way was all kinds of wrong, with Pam almost gleefully helping out, but it wasn't out of character considering that he had his wife murdered by Pope before they went into cryostasis.   But then when he shut the power off to the fence and opened the gate to kill everybody, he came off as petty and child-like (in a "I'm taking my ball and going home" sort of way -- not characteristics you want in a self-proclaimed God).

 

In order to have the farms for meat and dairy, the WP valley in the book would have had to have been much, much bigger for barns, crops and grazing land -- especially if they were growing all the animal feed in a much-shortened growing season.  I'm curious why they didn't have greenhouses inside the mountain complex -- they apparently had tons of power to provide lighting.

 

While they do explain the preservation process for everything else in the mountain a lot better, it still boggles the mind some of the crap they packed away -- umpteen kinds of candy, portable cricket speakers (how would they even know that crickets would be extinct), old cars, etc..  Though they still didn't explain where they got the infinite power source that apparently worked for 70,000 years.

[raven]

IIRC (it's been a while since I read them), Pilcher's people pretty relied heavily on tracking people via their chips.  I don't think it occurred to them that the people might discover them and take them out.  The outside surveillance only went so far and was more for external rather than internal threats. The people who sought out and set up the cave originally went beyond them, I think it was difficult to get there, through tunnels and then climbing a cliff face that was difficult so probably not monitored.

 

I agree that the fetes came off kind of silly in the books with the costumes and all.  I think the books did a better job of conveying the townspeople's isolation; the clannish kind of feeling that would lead them to go along with it.  Pope was an enthusaistic participant which probably helped things along; who would you turn to if the lawman was involved kind of thing.

 

Some of the show changes don't help - I see people wondering why Ethan wasn't brought in right away for example, in the books you know that there's been more than one attempt to integrate him, and Pilcher fearing Pope wanting to take over finally leads him to essentially kill Pope and tell Ethan the truth.  That isn't in the show at all.    Pilcher talks in the books about sending people out exploring (before Adam) and sending some kind of electronic signal I think to try to reach other people with no response.  I don't think the show addresses this either.

Edited July 9, 2015 by raven

[ottoDbusdriver]

IIRC (it's been a while since I read them), Pilcher's people pretty relied heavily on tracking people via their chips.  I don't think it occurred to them that the people might discover them and take them out.  The outside surveillance only went so far and was more for external rather than internal threats. The people who sought out and set up the cave originally went beyond them, I think it was difficult to get there, through tunnels and then climbing a cliff face that was difficult so probably not monitored.

 

I still don't understand why in the TV show the Abbies weren't scrambling down that cliff that Ethan climbed up to get out.  They should have been pouring over that cliff in massive numbers and running roughshod through WP killing everyone.

Some of the show changes don't help - I see people wondering why Ethan wasn't brought in right away for example, in the books you know that there's been more than one attempt to integrate him

 

Wasn't Kate (in the books) also on her 3rd try at integration ?  And it was never explained in the books why the car crashes were used as a ruse to abduct people -- nor why both Ethan and Beverly woke up in the woods instead of the hospital like everyone else ?

 

And the nonsense with Hassler committing to the project just so he could bang Ethan's wife -- a woman that he had only met briefly on a few occasions yet was somehow madly in love with -- was just ridiculous. 

[raven]

I don't think you could get directly into WP from the cliffs, the people went underground first, you have to get back in through the tunnels.  The Abbies do get in the tunnels in the 2nd or 3rd book I think.  There might have been a way through the forest to the cliffs but it was difficult going, no paths, maybe the Abbies never tried because there was so much easier prey around, maybe the forest was patrolled, maybe a bit of both. The townspeople didn't go through the woods so didn't attract any inadvertent Abbie attention.   Any Abbies who got close enough to the town to possibly cause trouble ran up against the fence and were killed.  Even roaming predators will generally stay where there's easy food and it's reasonably safe.  I think Pilcher turned the lights off at a certain time of night to conserve power and not attract attention.

 

When Pilcher knocks out the power, there's already a group of Abbies right outside the town though I don't remember why, maybe randomly? Light and noise?  That's my best recollection of that and I'm sticking to it :)  

 

I think the crashes were to put people in emotionally/physcially weakened states and make them doubt their recollections of how they got there, that's more my own assumption then an official explanation.

 

I haaaaaaaaate the Hassler/Theresa storyline (the whole 2nd book sucked so bad because of it, I almost didn't read the third, I think I did the Kindle borrowing thing) and I've complained about it quite a bit in this thread already, so no rationalization from me there!

Edited July 9, 2015 by raven

[tv4sho]

I'm almost actively hating this show and can't wait for it to end. I've stuck it out this far so I will watch the last 2 eps. It is so poorly written. Things that were hinted at in the beginning weren't followed up on (lazy, sloppy writing) and everything everyone's mentioned above my post. So many plot holes. And so totally depressing. I went into this thinking it would be a nice little mystery, but the abbies and the whole dystopian nature is just bumming me out. You couldn't pay me to read the books.

 

The books were awesome which is why I don't understand why the show deviated so much from them!  I mean, the truck taking down the fence didn't happen in the book.  None of the ben/Theresa scenes are in the books and they were actually in Waypines 5 years before Ethan.  Pam was younger and more ruthless.  Sheriff Pope death was more sinister. Ethan was actually on the side of the rebels. Pilcher was a cold SOB. All the changes they've made just suck..

 

Trust me, the books were nothing like this show.smh

[raven]

Ethan in the books was more of someone to root for.  He had seen the outside dangers up front and close yet believed the town should know the truth.  He had a more fleshed out background, his actions made sense.  He's kind of all over the place in the show, coming off more as reacting to things now.  At least in the beginning he was proactive, then recognized Pilcher for the threat he was.  It's too bad because I like Matt Dillon here and thought he could have pulled that off.

 

I like the changes to Theresa, she's not just hanging around waiting for a man to come home to her.  I don't mind Pam being less psycho then she was in the books either.  I think it was a good idea to try to show what was happening in the schools, but what the show actually portrayed didn't come off well.  Ben is annoying in the show, he doesn't trust his parents WHY? 

 

I suppose the stuff with rebels and bombs in the show is so that Ethan won't be the one doing everything, since in the books he's the real catalyst.  I'm not particularly interested in Kate, don't know if it's the actress or whatever.

 

I think the show got the town's atmosphere right and some things work but so far I give it a C-. 

[grandemocha]

 

 

This episode is making me champion the "this is all Ethan's coma-dream" theory, mainly because of the explanation of the Easter bombings/confession to Theresa.

For all the reasons you say, the same was occurring was me.

 

 

 

It's not a dream, it's not all in the mind of a child, Ethan's not being injected with hallucinogenic crack to fantasize all of this stuff. That was already shot down several times by the creators/writers/actors weeks ago. Thank goodness it's not a dream IMO. That would be the cheapest excuse ever, completely unimaginative. I hate the "they're all dead, the government is responsible, it's all a dream, a psychological experiment" cop outs.

 

Regarding the overall mystery, Hodge is willing to rule out any coma/dream theories, assuring viewers that “Wayward Pines is a real place.”

"Wayward Pines is a real place," showrunner Chad Hodge told TV Line. And, as it turns out, getting into a bloody car accident isn't the only way to get yourself unwillingly relocated. "Not everybody wakes up in the middle of the forest; there are different ways [to get there]."

 

[ottoDbusdriver]

That TV show season finale episode was even more unsatisfying than the ending of the book.

 

Seriously, having them all go back into the deep freeze for another 70,000 years is more plausible than the WTFery of a handful of 1st Class students, who were only introduced in the penultimate episode, that managed to take over the entire mountain complex -- and re-establish WP as an even worse place than before.   What's the point of having the town with all the rules -- rules that are now very strictly enforced -- if everyone knows what's going on ?

[Free]

What's the point of having the town with all the rules -- rules that are now very strictly enforced -- if everyone knows what's going on ?

 

I feel like all the tension went out after the Ep. 5 plot twist and since then it's been a decline into a huge disappointment at the very end.

 

[iMonrey]

Having read this thread right through, I have a question. Am I to gather that in the books Pilcher un-froze and re-froze Ethan more than once in an attempt to utilize him as Sheriff or whatever? And that each time Ethan lost his memory of the time before that?

 

There's been a lot of talk about Beverly's line in the TV show "I always believed you" which was never explained. Had she met him before in the books in her previous unfrostings?

[wirebitersm]

Rather than the 1st class taking over as some are speculating, the adults did decide to freeze themselves for 70,000 more years as per the book. The kids stayed in their bunker and when they came out the town was theirs. No fighting. The girl convinces them to thaw out the son sine he is one of them.

[kikaha]

Seriously, having them all go back into the deep freeze for another 70,000 years is more plausible than the WTFery of a handful of 1st Class students, who were only introduced in the penultimate episode, that managed to take over the entire mountain complex -- and re-establish WP as an even worse place than before.  

 

Even the 2000 or so year freeze was pretty well impossible.  The problem is power, or energy.  They would need a steady, non-stop source of power, that keeps running and running every second of the day, every day of the year, for millennia, without people to administer it.  70,000 years of that energy is so far beyond the realm of anything humans can do now as to make the premise total fantasy IMO. 

[Mysis]

Yikes, who was Tobias? It's only been a few days and I can only identify Ethan, Kate, Theresa, and Ben by name now. It was definitely mindless summer fun.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Yikes, who was Tobias? It's only been a few days and I can only identify Ethan, Kate, Theresa, and Ben by name now. It was definitely mindless summer fun.

 

In the books, Tobias was one of Pilcher's volunteers that went out on recon with a group for about 3 and a half years, and his story is told as the only survivor of that group during his trip back to WP as he arrives basically right after Pilcher turns off the fence.  The twist with Tobias is that that is the middle name of Adam Hassler -- why he would choose to go by his middle name I have no idea other than the "surprise reveal" in the 3rd book ?  Turns out the only reason Hassler volunteered to join Pilcher's team was so that he could be frozen and eventually be with his one true love -- Theresa (Ethan's wife).  So Hassler made a deal with Pilcher that Ethan was never to be unfrozen so he could setup house with Theresa and Ben.

 

Hassler, Theresa and Ben were all thawed 5 years before Ethan was thawed -- and Hassler lived with Theresa and Ben before being assigned by Pilcher to do recon of the Pacific Northwest.

 

In the TV show, there's no mention of Hassler as Tobias, we only see those videos of Hassler near ruined San Francisco (still no idea how those videos got back to WP).  And there's no mention of Hassler's longing for Theresa before Ethan, Theresa and Ben were frozen.

[SlackerInc]

Having read this thread right through, I have a question. Am I to gather that in the books Pilcher un-froze and re-froze Ethan more than once in an attempt to utilize him as Sheriff or whatever? And that each time Ethan lost his memory of the time before that?

 

There's been a lot of talk about Beverly's line in the TV show "I always believed you" which was never explained. Had she met him before in the books in her previous unfrostings?

 

I'm wondering about this as well, along with whether the books make any sense out of things like gaslighting Ethan about Beverly supposedly not working at the bar, plus having the hotel clerk kick Ethan out for nonpayment (for that matter, having a hotel at all), and all the wild rumpus in the hospital with Beverly helping Ethan escape but then later dropping it and not trying to force him to have the surgery after all.  Oh, and the dilapidated house with reckoned bodies in it.

 

Thanks in advance to any book readers who can shed light!

[raven]

In the books, Pilcher had tried a couple of times to integrate Ethan already.  Pilcher tells Ethan that when you go into suspension, your mind resets to before your first suspension, so Ethan didn't remember the prior attempts (story convenience, but there you go).  Ethan is an ultra-competent authority figure in the books - much more so than in the show - and Pilcher wants Ethan to replace Pope because Pilcher is concerned Pope wants to take over. 

 

IIRC, Pilcher is aware of Ethan because of Adam (Tobias) Hassler, Ethan's boss, who wanted to be suspended in order to be woken up and live with Theresa.  Adam didn't know Pilcher took Ethan as well, and in WP lives with Theresa and Ben.  Pilcher sends Adam out on a recon mission, there have been several but people didn't come back, or some did with stories that everything's gone.  There were no electronic communications betweent the recons and Pilcher.  In the books, Adam keeps a journal of his experiences.  When Pilcher wakes Ethan, he assumes Adam is dead.

 

Ethan kept trying to escape, so Pilcher & Pam drugged him in an attempt I guess to get him to accept things -that's not super clear.  In the book, Ethan is on his 3rd integration and escapes, encountering a group of abbies first hand and escaping them.  The abbies are MUCH more threatening in the books IMO than portrayed in the show.  Pilcher finally takes Ethan in the helicopter, shows him the world and tells him the truth, says that Ethan can go back to WP as sheriff (Pilcher leaves Pope to be killed by abbies) with his family and toe the line, or Ethan can take his family and try the outside world.  Ethan chooses to stay as sheriff with his family and eventually tells Theresa the truth. 

 

The bit with the hotel clerk was to give Ethan a sense of normalcy (what hotel in the old world would let you stay without paying, for example) as part of his integration.  Whether it's a sensible thing to do is up for debate :D  I honestly don't recall why they left Kate's partner's body in the house, maybe so Ethan could feel like he was conducting an investigation?  That's just my guess.

 

So the show went off the rails quite a bit after Pope died. We're not taken into the school though we know through Ben that the students aren't to discuss their classes with parents.  We do find out they're learning Pilcher is a savior, blah blah but the students aren't violent and there's no coup,  Pam is consistenly threatening and psychotic thru the books as she was in the first few episodes of the show.  Ethan finds out the "rebels" are just a group of people sneaking out of town to meet in a mountain cave and talk about their old lives.  There're no truck bombs.  Ethan eventually tells the town the truth, proving it with a dead abbie.  Pilcher throws a hissy fit and shuts off the power, leading to the town being overrun.  Kate's husband is killed but by an abbie. 

 

A plus is that Theresa is a really blah stereotype in the books, the show treated her much better.  The relationship with Adam was awful and I'm glad the show left that out.

 

For me, there was no sense of danger or urgency in the show.  In the books, you know the secret is wearing on Ethan and he really feels people should know, plus he's seen Pilcher leave Pope to die and

Pilcher also killed his own daughter with Pam's help because the daughter was sympathetic to those meeting in the cave when she was supposed to be infiltrating them.

  Spoiled that because it happens after book 1.  Pilcher's craziness is more apparent.  I think the show failed there.  Pam is also crazy so there's more of a feeling of oppression; the two with the most power are nuts.  The only time I felt that sense of oppression in the show was the last scene of this last episode when Ben sees the statue, etc and realizes nothing's changed. 

 

The best parts of the second book for me were the details of Adam/Tobias out in the world.  Here again you get the scope of what the future is like.  The show is obviously more limited in being able to show that; the few CGI shots we got weren't very compelling.  I stopped paying a lot of attention after the first few eps though.  Some reviews, like on AV Club, are pretty positive, so I guess it worked for a lot of people.

 

The books aren't brilliant sci-fi but they have an interesting premise and Ethan is pretty well fleshed out.  It helps that you're basically with him all through the stories, experiencing everything.  

 

If you can deal with paragraphs.  Short like this. Then I would say give them a try. :D   The romance stuff is awful tho. 

Edited July 26, 2015 by raven

[KDeFlane]

If the early writers working on the show wanted to establish the feeling readers get from the book(s), then they may have been trying to set up the fact that Ethan was being "reset" a few times.  Beverly is in one iteration but not another; the piano in the Biergarten is in one iteration but is replaced by a large wall mirror in another.  Then the writing staff gets swapped out, and they drop that slow reveal entirely, and they don't feel the need to clean up the trail (or they were simply not aware of what was in the scripts of the earlier episodes).

[raven]

I remember thinking in the beginning they may have been trying to go there (multiple Ethan resets).  It might have worked, could have had Ethan wake up again in Ep 3 for example, starting from scratch with another "accident" but with a deja vu sense.  This could have caused some Groundhog Day type spec. before the reveal. We could have followed him through another day and gotten more of a sense of desperation.  Spend a bit more time on one of the recon missions, or have Adam return to WP and tell his story thru flashbacks, to give that doomed sense to the viewer. Maybe they didn't want to concentrate so much on Ethan, IDK.  By trying to expand with rebels and explosions we lost the connection we needed IMO.   I know there were a lot of questions about the science but that never bothered me, it's not explained in the books, it just is, with some offhand comments about storing animal embryos, etc.

[Mysis]

In the books, Tobias was one of Pilcher's volunteers that went out on recon with a group for about 3 and a half years, and his story is told as the only survivor of that group during his trip back to WP as he arrives basically right after Pilcher turns off the fence.  The twist with Tobias is that that is the middle name of Adam Hassler -- why he would choose to go by his middle name I have no idea other than the "surprise reveal" in the 3rd book ?  Turns out the only reason Hassler volunteered to join Pilcher's team was so that he could be frozen and eventually be with his one true love -- Theresa (Ethan's wife).  So Hassler made a deal with Pilcher that Ethan was never to be unfrozen so he could setup house with Theresa and Ben.

Thanks for the recap! I watched while doing other things so thought I must have really missed something. Debating whether to read the books now. So many things to read and so little time!

[lucindabelle]

Thanks for these explanations to the Beverly nonsense. Not a book reader and never will be so don't mind being spoiled.

But, if people are reset, than how is Pam totally aware when she's unfrozen? Was she just not in suspension long enough?

[ottoDbusdriver]

Thanks for these explanations to the Beverly nonsense. Not a book reader and never will be so don't mind being spoiled.

But, if people are reset, than how is Pam totally aware when she's unfrozen? Was she just not in suspension long enough?

 

Remember that Pam was a volunteer while Ethan and Beverly were not.  Ethan and Beverly were placed in cryostasis after being knocked unconscious in a traffic accident.

 

In the book it's stated that once someone is refrozen and then thawed again that their memories are reset back to the point when they were frozen the first time (no idea why that would be -- we'll just say 'science !!). Pam was only ever thawed once so she was never reset, while Ethan had been refrozen twice and was on his 3rd integration attempt.

[SlackerInc]

But by this logic, she still should have woken with no memory of anything after the time when she was frozen in 2014 (or thereabouts).  But this was never established in show canon, so w/e.

 

Raven, thanks for all the info!  You might think about editing the Wikipedia page on the book trilogy: it is surprisingly bereft of plot summary for a Wiki page on something relatively many people would be interested in knowing about.

[lucindabelle]

Remember that Pam was a volunteer while Ethan and Beverly were not.  Ethan and Beverly were placed in cryostasis after being knocked unconscious in a traffic accident.

 

In the book it's stated that once someone is refrozen and then thawed again that their memories are reset back to the point when they were frozen the first time (no idea why that would be -- we'll just say 'science !!). Pam was only ever thawed once so she was never reset, while Ethan had been refrozen twice and was on his 3rd integration attempt.

 

Yes, that's what I meant to say. How come when they unfroze her after the Good Guard said "wake her up" she had all of her memories intact?

Seems the show wants it both ways...

 

The "reset" explains the piano/mirror, "Who's Beverly," "I always believed you," at least a little bit. But if you reset why doesn't Pam?

I'm going to handwave that you have to sleep for at least a month. There. Now I'm happy. At least with that bit.

Edited July 28, 2015 by lucindabelle

[ottoDbusdriver]

Yes, that's what I meant to say. How come when they unfroze her after the Good Guard said "wake her up" she had all of her memories intact?

Seems the show wants it both ways...

The "reset" explains the piano/mirror, "Who's Beverly," "I always believed you," at least a little bit. But if you reset why doesn't Pam?
I'm going to handwave that you have to sleep for at least a month. There. Now I'm happy. At least with that bit.

 

I'm thinking that the fact she was only in there for minutes that the reset didn't kick in -- but then again in the TV show, they never mentioned anything about the reset process if a person is refrozen.

[trimthatfat]

I read the book series earlier this year and then found out it was turned into a show so I marathoned the show this weekend. So disappointed in the casting. I pictured Pam as a Kristanna Loken type - very athletic but pretty. I also pictured a young woman. I like Melissa Leo, but I was not feeling her casting as I just envisioned a much younger woman who was a bit of a nut job. I also didn't get why Pam suddenly became Dr. Bilcher's sister and how she was able to go from sadistic brain-washed nurse to someone who could kill her brother. It just didn't work, IMO.

 

The one thing I liked about the show was that it did give background as to what the children were learning in school. In the book, Blake Crouch was so vague about what they were learning. All we knew is that the children couldn't talk about what they were learning. However, it doesn't ring true to me that Ben would go from trusting his parents to thinking that his dad was putting everyone in danger just because his teacher told him so. I guess that was the point of having a teacher who was a hypnotist.

 

I did not care for the inclusion of Ben's girlfriend. It was just odd.

 

The ending of the book >>>> the ending of the show. I feel like the last 5 minutes of the finale totally went against everything we know about Ethan. He wouldn't have given up at all. He was very quick to come up with plans when the situation seemed dire. But this Ethan? Was willing to sacrifice himself and kill himself in front of his wife and child? Yeah, no.

Edited July 29, 2015 by trimthatfat

[Guest]

The show ends with Ethan sacrificing himself in front of Ben and Theresa?  I was thinking of watching the last 3 eps now that I have Hulu but maybe not.

 

The one thing that really threw me was the nightclub in the cave 300-400 ft. up the cliffs -- how would Pilcher's surveillance apparatus not notice people climbing the cliff walls, even just in random scans (because we know they had night-vision capabilities)?  

What threw me about that was that they described the trip up there, even for Super Ethan, as incredibly dangerous, with some precarious, high bridge and cliff climbing.  But the folks were up there drinking alcohol then making that trek back afterward?  Made me wonder if Crouch has ever drank.  

 

The best parts of the second book for me were the details of Adam/Tobias out in the world.  

 

If you can deal with paragraphs.  Short like this. Then I would say give them a try. :D   The romance stuff is awful tho. 

I rather enjoyed the Tobias stuff, too.  Though I cringe in embarrassment at the love note that was something like, "When you get back, soldier, I'm gonna fuck your brains out."  Be still my beating heart!  Oh, the romance!