The Tudors and Their Times: Crack Open the History Books

[doodlebug]

I guess this is a spoiler but I read somewhere that before that atrocious Lady Jane (Anne's sister in law) was executed for the Catherine Howard debacle she did admit that she lied about Anne having an affair with her brother. And everyone else for that matter

 

I took this out of tags because it occurred after Cromwell's time.  The Widow Rockford was lady in waiting to Catherine Howard, Wife #5,  who was a distant cousin of the Boleyn family/Duke of Norfolk.  She was 20 at the time of her marriage, Henry was 49.  Catherine was flighty and apparently none too bright.  Aside from having been betrothed to another man at one point (which we learned from Anne's story rendered any subsequent marriage invalid), Catherine carried on an affair with Thomas Culpepper while married to Henry.  It was hardly a secret and Henry found out pretty quickly.  Jane had assisted the lovers in setting up meetings, so she was charged with treason along with Catherine, Culpepper and Francis Dereham, the former fiancé.

 

Jane was imprisoned several months for questioning prior to her trial and she went BSC during that time, having essentially a complete mental breakdown.  She admitted to anything and everything, but was so out of touch with reality that it isn't clear what was true and what wasn't.  In fact, because it had been against the law to execute someone who was insane, Henry petitioned and got an exception made for Jane.  She was beheaded right after Catherine.  Culpepper also was beheaded while poor Dereham was hung, drawn and quartered.

[susannot]

I took this out of tags because it occurred after Cromwell's time.

Not true..Not really a spoiler because it's history,but Cromwell survived Catherine Howard.  He was undone by Henry's marriage to Ann of Cleeves, the "Flemish Mare."  Even though Henry had become a fat, diseased monster, he still wanted his ladies to be slim and lovely.  It was Cromwell's fault that Ann of Cleeves was almost as corpulent as Henry. Henry had only seen a portrait of her and was unpleasantly surprised in real life.

Also,poor little Catherine was wife # 4.

[miles2go]

Not true..Not really a spoiler because it's history, but Cromwell survived Catherine Howard.  He was undone by Henry's marriage to Ann of Cleeves, the "Flemish Mare."  Even though Henry had become a fat, diseased monster, he still wanted his ladies to be slim and lovely.  It was Cromwell's fault that Ann of Cleeves was almost as corpulent as Henry. Henry had only seen a portrait of her and was unpleasantly surprised in real life. 

Also,poor little Catherine was wife # 4.

 

Anne of Cleaves was wife #4 (1540), Catherine #5 (executed in 1541) Cromwell was executed in 1540.

[frenchtoast]

Here's a place where we can discuss how Henry came to the throne, how he ruled (and how the various courtiers and advisors behaved) and how each wife met her end. Basically, the history of the time, including his children and his predecessors. The spoiler tags are for those that don't want to know how it all ends up.

[susannot]

Alert:  Miles to go is correct on this issue.

[kieyra]

I'm happy to see this thread since we have several of us who like to hold forth on the subject, but I am beyond confused about when we're supposed to use spoiler tags. I would assume anyone who came in here was prepared to learn some history.

[frenchtoast]

No need for spoiler tags in here. I tagged the topic so people would understand there will be discussion about what will happen to Cromwell, Henry and all the rest of the characters in the book that will be released (looking forward to it!) and the episodes that will be made following the book. So rather than tagging the posts, the topic has the big warning that spoilers will be here.It's a site policy--lesser known history, like in the Vikings, should get tagged since it essentially gives away plot. So this is like a spoiler topic in another forum, even if it actually happened hundreds of years ago. 

 

I hope I cleared that up? (And I removed the tags that I forgot to after I moved the posts. That probably caused the confusion. Sorry!)

[doodlebug]

Thanks for this tread. Yes, Cromwell arranged the marriage with Anne of Cleves to cement relations with Europe and she was #4, after Jane Seymour.  Katherine Howard was #5.  To remember the wives in order, there is the old rhyme: Divorced, Beheaded, Died.  Divorced, Beheaded, Survived.  (Catherine of Aragón, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour. Anne of Cleves, Katherine Howard, Catherine Parr).

[jjj]

No need for spoiler tags in here. I tagged the topic so people would understand there will be discussion about what will happen to Cromwell, Henry and all the rest of the characters in the book that will be released (looking forward to it!) and the episodes that will be made following the book. So rather than tagging the posts, the topic has the big warning that spoilers will be here.It's a site policy--lesser known history, like in the Vikings, should get tagged since it essentially gives away plot. So this is like a spoiler topic in another forum, even if it actually happened hundreds of years ago. 

 

I hope I cleared that up? (And I removed the tags that I forgot to after I moved the posts. That probably caused the confusion. Sorry!)

Thanks for the explanation!  I didn't know if I should spoiler-tag that Elizabeth becomes Queen!  (joking, but I was trying to assess the level of spoilerdom -- all clear now!)

[LuciaMia]

Whenever I see a scene where people are pouring and drinking wine, I wonder how or whether tastes were different than today.  I mean, I read about the concotions the ancient Romans drank; wine mixed with honey, a kalidescope of spices and herbs and then topping it off with garum, a fermented fish product. Not exactly an oaky Chardonnay.

 

So I wonder what the wine was like back then. Did tastes run towards a sweeter wine?  Shakespeare's Falstaff enjoys his 'sack', a fortified wine which is like today's sherry.

[jjj]

Different shipments of wine were treated differently.  Interestingly, the only part of Whitehall Palace from the court of Henry VIII that survives is his wine cellar, which was moved to a new location underground in the mid-20th century, now underneath the Ministry of Defense in London.  (The Banqueting House of Whitehall still survives at the location of Whitehall Palace, but this Banqueting House was built about a century after Henry VIII; Whitehall Palace burnt to the ground in 1698.)

 

About the actual wine:  Henry VIII had about 300 barrels of wine delivered from France each year in several shipments, in large barrels.  The Autumn delivery would be new wine that would become very acidic once the barrel was opened, so that wine would usually be flavoured with spices and sugar to combat the acidity.  Shipments of wine later in the year, which by then were more mature wines from the previous summer vintage, would be more stable and could be drunk without the additions of flavours.  I have read that the wines shipped in spring (more mature wines) were reserved for Henry's meals. 

[susannot]

In every scene Henry was shown sipping wine. How much wine did a barrel contain? I suspect he drank a lot of wine to dull the pain of his leg injury, which in turn made him heavier and aggravated his bad leg. It's always the case.

[jjj]

Well, barrels could vary, but actually were fairly standard by the period we saw in "Wolf Hall," with an official barrel holding almost 120 liters.  The "tun" was larger, and was a measure in use into the next century, so most measurements were portions of the "tun", which was also barrel-shaped, but larger.  http://sizes.com/units/barrel_wine.htm

 

And here is a picture of the actual Henry VIII wine cellar (now moved to a new location), with reconstruction of barrels; the assumption is that there would be around 200-300 barrels at any one time, because wine could not be stored long-term, so major shipments arrived a few times each year: 

 

http://www.cabbieblog.com/royal-pub-crawl/

Edited May 17, 2015 by jjj

[kieyra]

Not in a good place to dig up the link, but there's a fascinating book called A History of English Food that includes lots of Tudor era food trivia. Despite reading lots of history and historical fiction, it took this book to make me understand that a trencher is really sort of a plate made of bread to eat food from, and the bread itself isn't necessarily eaten. I had been picturing sort of an open-faced sandwich, I think.

Edited May 17, 2015 by kieyra

[ulkis]

 

This is an interesting short video of a historian shopping in a food store for the equivalent of Henry VIII's meals

[susannot]

After a Tudor history reading binge following "Wolf Hall", I have a tidbit to contribute to this thread, and also maybe one of my food shows. A pie in Medieval food was called a coffin. It was a hard pastry container for food. Today it would be a pate en croute. In Elizabeth's time it would have been common but she became enraged when a courtier served her a dish in a coffin towards the end of her reign. She hated to hear of her mortality and the succession. From The Life of Elizabeth I by Alison Weir.

[Driad]

 

Thank you, susannot.  A coffin was originally a basket, box, or other container, used for any purpose.  The surname Coffin (prominent in New England) probably originated with people who made these containers.