S05.E05: Kill The Boy

[Athena]

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Episode Synopsis:

 

Dany makes a difficult decision in Meereen. Jon recruits the help of an unexpected ally. Brienne searches for Sansa. Theon remains under Ramsay’s control.
 

[90PercentGravity]

Well, that quite a lot of plot movement in one episode.

 

Dany marrying head of family guy is interesting. Don't blame her for that move. Yum. Though I never really noticed any chemistry between them before.

 

Jorah is infected and I suppose he will bring it to Meereen. Might be interesting if Dany gets infected and then gets the same kind of cure that Shireen (or whatever her name is) got. Then she really would be the dragon queen.

 

Didn't take long for Ramsey to show his true colors. Geez. Nice of Brienne to get a message through to Sansa. Nice that something finally worked in her favor.

 

Of course Stannis is a grammar nazi.

 

How awful would it be if Tyrion gets infected? A drunk exiled patricidal dwarf with a scar AND scales?

Edited May 11, 2015 by 90PercentGravity

[stillshimpy]

Dany marrying head of family guy is interesting. Don't blame her for that move. Yum. Though I never really noticed any chemistry between them before.

 

Now that one caught me completely off-guard.  I've never seen anyone so completely horrified at the thought of marrying a queen and there is no chemistry between them.  I assume he's gay and Dany knows it.  Whereas I'm glad that Grey Worm lived, every time someone has a touching scene, I just assume they are dead meat, so mostly I heard the bell tolling for poor Grey Worm and likely Missandei too.   

 

Okay, so about these freaking Stone Men.  Why would anyone, at all, ever, in the history of all history, think sending the afflicted to live out their lives as near animals rather than mercifully killing them before they descended into Stony Zombies, was a good idea?  I get it, they are paralleling lepers except for the fact that they completely freaking are not.  On the upside, oh hooray, more mindless gangs of death and doom?  

 

Also, the Pompei/Roman Empire thing was ...I don't know....okay-ish?  All together now "Was part of the doom lead in the aqueducts?  Oh, no  just the stand-in for Vesuvius puked death from above.   Gotcha.   It just isn't all that imaginative.  I guess I was expecting a bit more, but it was nice to see Drogon.  

 

I can't say I was disappointed in that precisely, but it was just such a blunt instrument.  "Hey, does this look familiar?  Bonus, it's actually a parallel to Pompeii as well!  More Roman-Empire-Ripoffs than you can shake a stick at! Woo!" Also, great, so Jorah's now afflicted with Grey Scale?  That's....depressing as hell, 

 

So after all that "Kill the boy" stuff, it turned out to be Maester Aemon just telling Jon to grow up?  And if Jon is related to any Targaryens, Aemon sure doesn't seem to know it.  

 

Poor Sansa.  Just because it can't be said enough, poor Sansa.  Ramsay has typical taste in women for this story, that's for sure.  What a wretched excuse for a human being his lady love is.  Also, so much for Ramsay promising never to hurt Sansa.   He'll apparently do whatever strikes him to amuse himself. 

 

I did feel for Theon, but again, he had two children killed as props.  Props.  Set dressings.  So I can't really feel all that bad for him that that is causing him anguish.  It pretty much should.  It would be lovely if he could discover enough of himself to actually do something other than be incredibly pitiable.  To at least commit suicide.  I mean, good god.  End it already, if you can't do anything else.  

 

Poor freaking Brienne.  She's going to die horribly trying to save Sansa, isn't she?  

Edited May 11, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

I'm glad that things are finally chugging along!! Stannis is attacking the North. If he loses, I fear all hope is lost for this world.

 

The only person that can save Jorah is the Red Woman. She's the one who cured Shireen. Now, I don't think bringing in the Red Woman is remotely possible. Episode 3, when Varys and Tyrion go to town, Tyrion watches a woman in the center of a square preaching that the night is dark and full of terrors just like our buddy, Meli. She locked eyes with Tyrion. Chekov's Gun Theory. She'll be important. I hope she becomes important before Jorah dies.

Edited May 11, 2015 by DirewolfPup

[90PercentGravity]

So after all that "Kill the boy" stuff, it turned out to be Maester Aemon just telling Jon to grow up?  And if Jon is related to any Targaryens, Aemon sure doesn't seem to know it.

 

Oh, oh, but did you see the really heavy handed directing when Aemon says something about Targaryen blood or something and they rack focus onto Jon?

[WhiteStumbler]

The rack focus was noted. The more "hints" A Show drops, the more convinced I am that Jon's parentage doesn't matter.

Last Heath got name-dropped and I thought of Rickon. And Osha and pup.

[janjan]

WS ponders the ep title on the Speculation thread: Or part of some saying? "Kill the boy and release the man" or something like that?

You so smaaaht.

 

Unlike Jorah. Why float a boat into the den of the Stone Men? One of them got Tyrion by the ankle, didn't he? Are they both doomed? And why are they even there in Santorini, er, I mean, Old Valyria? I don't think A Show was channeling Rome, since there's been much talk all along of Valyria's high culture. Minoan, methinks, not Roman.

 

The dragonettes' collars continue to grow. But at least now we know how they get fed.

 

Ramsay is right to be concerned about the pending birth of a little brother. Roose wants him to join in taking the North -- does that sound like Tywin sending Tyrion to the front lines? Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

 

I hope this ep was a setup for some action. In itself, it was kind of a yawn (IMHO) -- too many dark and dreary settings, too much Jon and Stannis, not enough Cersei and Littlefinger. And no Olenna at all. Nobody playing the Game of Thrones fer chrissake. Just Stannis making war and Dany Dawdling. Still.

Edited May 11, 2015 by janjan

[WhiteStumbler]

"You so smaaaht."

*bows*

Even a blind pig...

[WhiteStumbler]

And Tyrion saw a dragon! Holy pig shite!

[gingerella]

So...that one Harpy head of family muttered "valor marghoulis, all men must die" when he thought he was next to feed the dragonettes...hmmmm, what does that mean? How would he know that phrase? And why did Dany act like it was no big deal muttering that phrase?

WS, your guess was...whoa, dude.

I dont want Jorah to become a Stone Man! If Shireen was cured then he can be too, right? Right?!? At least old Jorah started to come back tonight.

Jon Snow finally sacked up, good for him, but man, Olly is going to cause some snafus at some point soon. I dont like that possibility. I DO love Samwell Tarly getting deep into dragon glass again though. I predict now that Sam will succeed Maester Aemon as the Maester of the Nights watch. You heard it here...

Oh, and Dany marrying whatshisname? Huh?!?

[90PercentGravity]

And why did Dany act like it was no big deal muttering that phrase?

 

It's not. It seems to be a common phrase in those parts. Remember when Dany was "negotiating" for the and the slaver said it and Missande translated and Dany said "Yes, but we're not men."

[Pallas]

Or part of some saying? "Kill the boy and release the man" or something like that?

 

Grog for our friend WhiteStumbler!  Even when I read your post, Stumbler, I thought you meant an actual boy and an actual man.  No more grog for me.  

 

Even a blind pig...

 

In the habitat of the blind...

[WhiteStumbler]

Sansa: Walked down the aisle by two monsters to marry the sons of hated families.

ETA - One an ex-bastard, the other a 'bastard in the eyes of (his) father'

Edited May 12, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[abcfsk]

All through the episode I was humming 

 

But there’s something about him
And you don’t know why
But you’re dying to try
You wanna kill the boy

[AngelKitty]

did feel for Theon, but again, he had two children killed as props.  Props.  Set dressings.  So I can't really feel all that bad for him that that is causing him anguish.

 

Really! I feel sorry for him and hate him at the same time.  Do we know if anyone else knows those kids were not Starks?

 

Of course Stannis is a grammar Nazi.

 

It took me a minute to realize what happened there,  Tee hee.

[stillshimpy]

Really! I feel sorry for him and hate him at the same time.  Do we know if anyone else knows those kids were not Starks?

 

Here's the thing:  Freaking Ramsay knows and so does Roose Bolton.  It was one of the things that Theon told Ramsay when he was being tortured.  Bolton sent the lackey who looked a lot like the six-fingered man from The Princess Bride off to the Wall to kill them (assuming that they would be headed towards Jon, I think...but I can't recall because it's been a while in the story).  

 

However, Not-Six-Fingered (who deprived Jaime of his hand, might have been named Locke) died at Craster's Camp of Unending Misogynistic Fun (that finally, finally ended).   So that hasn't been mentioned in a very, very long time.  

 

With all Boltons making such a fuss about Sansa, blah blah, what a geographical locksmith! I sort of wonder if the story has forgotten about that, but they did know.  

 

Also, oh goody, Jon's going back to North of the Wall, because of course he is.  

 

 

 

Oh, oh, but did you see the really heavy handed directing when Aemon says something about Targaryen blood or something and they rack focus onto Jon?

 

I did and thought, "Oh friggin' fine, here it comes at long last....go for it show...." and then Aemon proceeded to tell Jon specifically that Dany's only living family was a dying old blind man.   You know how we've tried to figure out if Aemon would or would not know if there was anything to be known?  Well, at least we know Aemon doesn't think Jon's a Targ.  

 

And here's where the fuckery of this story comes in, because forty seven people who want to believe this story will be able to say, "Oh ho! But he actually didn't say that he...." Yeah, guys he pretty much did unless you want to believe he's lying, which is why they need to just tell this story because absolutely everything about this damned story can be negated via that method.  

 

Including if he had said, "You should know, Jon Snow, that if you had a last name, it would be the same as mine.  Used to be that is"  it could be countered with "Well, but what if he was lying?  We know he wasn't there because he talked about choosing to remain at The Wall during the rebellion."  

 

However, as Stumbler says, the more they focus on this silliness, the more likely it is it is unimportant.  

 

Years ago after the episode where Ned dropped off Jon at the Wall and said, "I'll tell you about your mother when we next meet."  this speculation began and after a couple of pages I joked that "Wow, what if that was just a shot to establish that even Jon Snow doesn't know anything about his mother?  Maybe his mother is like Godot in the story."  

 

I've since come back to that.  

 

But I hope a Russian Satellite falls from the sky and wipes out the next character to utter the "You know nothing, Jon Snow" stuff.  

 

Reason to be alarmed number 648:  We saw Stannis take his leave of Jon.  

 

That seldom bodes well for anyone. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

I missed the first 20 minutes of the episode. I'll watch it tonight.

 

I started watching with the Bolton's family craziness. I knew it wouldn't be long for Ramsey's psychopathic girlfriend to start showing her claws. And now Sansa is being psychologically tortured, again, before being actually tortured by Ramsey. Just great....

Poor Sansa.  Just because it can't be said enough, poor Sansa.

It can't be said enough. She's the whipping boy of this whole story. It's depressing, I don't even wanna watch it anymore.

 

Okay, so about these freaking Stone Men.  Why would anyone, at all, ever, in the history of all history, think sending the afflicted to live out their lives as near animals rather than mercifully killing them before they descended into Stony Zombies, was a good idea?  I get it, they are paralleling lepers except for the fact that they completely freaking are not.  On the upside, oh hooray, more mindless gangs of death and doom?

I was thinking exactly the same thing when Tyrion said it. Plus it doesn't make any sense. How are these people getting there? Who would accept them on their ship when they're so infectious that even a touch would give you the disease in less than a day!? (talk about impressive incubation time!!). If they're being sent by themselves, how are they getting there exactly, when they don't even seem to think anymore? And why would you leave these super infectious zombi creatures running around, what if they organize and get out ans start attacking everyone?? It's on of the stupidest plots they've ever had in the story, and that is saying a lot. Although at least it's a one time thing. But then again, not, cause now Jorah is infected. They also touched Tyrion, on the leg, although maybe they need to touch you on your skin. And I suppose Shireen is not infectious anymore because she's cured?

 

I missed why that high born dude from Mereen is is prison. But I was surprised Dany has decided to marry on of them. I think it's a smart move, at least for a start.

[stillshimpy]

Who would accept them on their ship when they're so infectious that even a touch would give you the disease in less than a day!? (talk about impressive incubation time!!).

 

See, that's yet another problem.  If even the smallest touch causes infection, and it develops THAT rapidly then there would have been a pandemic.  Or maybe it becomes more infectious as it progresses and you have to make contact with the infected skin?  Which....okay, but that makes the whole "Isle of the Stone Men" stuff even stupider.  

 

I think they were going for a leprosy/smallpox hybrid of infectious doom, but they made it so easy to catch it that we're clearly missing something or else, it would be impossible for anyone to survive coming into contact with an afflicted person, at all.  

 

Also, apparently you can jump in a big bay of Stone Man tea and not contract it?  

Edited May 11, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Shimp: Grog for our friend WhiteStumbler!  Even when I read your post, Stumbler, I thought you meant an actual boy and an actual man.  No more grog for me.

Now you've got me thinking of Athena popping out of the head of Zeus, sort of like "Alien." Zeus was none the worse for it, but it would leave a sizable hole in Jon's head if a man popped out. And that's not where descendants pop out anyway. And how can descendants be older than their parents? See what you've done? Pretzel-ated my mind again! Give me grog!! I need grog now!!

 

Even if Tyrion didn't get infected by that underwater ankle-grab, he's still in danger from any casual contact with his traveling companion. ANd he probably doesn't have any hand sanitizer with him. And I wish he's shave, but he probably can't so now he looks like Gimli.

 

Why is Dany hanging around Mereen and even marrying into their hierarchy? She's supposed to be on her way to Westeros, and just collecting armies as she goes. Yeha, she thought she'd stay a while and try on ruling for size, but now it looks like she's stuck there.

 

That was an impressive column of Stannis-ites leaving Castle Black. You do have to wonder how the NW fed them all, plus the Wildling prisoners, and whether they overwhelmed the sanitary facilities. When thousands of unsuspecting hockey fans were trapped in the Boston Garden Arena for days by the Blizzard of '78, the bathrooms suffered the worst.

[WhiteStumbler]

...whether they overwhelmed the sanitary facilities.

-janjan

That is what Jon said last episode, when he assigned Brian the Ginger to be the Latrine Captain charged with digging a new pit:

Jon: Brothers! As you all know too well, it's long past time to dig a new latrine pit...

[Anothermi]

Well I, for one, am grateful to A Show for putting the meaning of the Episode Title to rest early on instead of at the end - for a change. AND for making the title easy to relate to the 1st theme (or any theme for that matter) of the show. (I'm counting my blessings when I can as they are few and far between.) 

 

As for this slippery issue of Greyscale, I'm in agreement that it doesn't seem to meet the standards of "That Which Is Known" with respect to human behavior in Westeros. Sending the infected ones away to a remote place for one? Did I miss the rule that states everyone in the Kingdom is fair game to kill in any sadistic way you choose.... except someone infected with Greyscale? Sheesh. Even Craster wouldn't kill the two of his daughters who were infected (and that begs the question of how they got it? but I'm leaving that for the time being) but caged them up so they could turn into stone skinned, lizard-like animals. Aren't there enough hazards out there in this show without adding this one? 

 

But, apparently, the Stone Men (and/or Greyscale) are going to be an ongoing plot point. Why else would we have a 2 episode lead in to the topic. It was introduced via Gilly asking Shireen about her face and giving us a bit of exposition on the fact that it was a disease and not a genetic defect (which is what I originally thought). Then last episode we got Stannis' expositional father/daughter chat to fill in a bit more (like the Stone Men colony and that it can be cured - not the colony, the disease). Now we have Jorah infected and the fact that Stone Men resemble a variation of Zomboni, only not quite as dead - but just as hard to kill. (or as Shimpy put it : "On the upside, oh hooray, more mindless gangs of death and doom?")

 

However, thankful as I am that sexposition wasn't employed in providing us the Greyscale backstory, what we were given is contradictory at best. 

- infection is instantaneous with scales appearing right away. (Shireen's appeared right after she put the doll to her cheek and Jorah's shortly after dragging Tyrion from the clutches of the Man who was (aptly) sinking-like-a-Stone.); BUT

- there's this...

Shimpy: Also, apparently you can jump in a big bay of Stone Man tea and not contract it?

AND

- spread of the infection is slow enough that in the time all the best maesters and healers in the land could be sent for and make the journey to Dragonstone, only the one side of Shireen's face got covered by the reptile-like skin and her sanity was not yet affected. 

 

The second part, at least, explains how the future Stone Men got to the colony. They would still be compos mentis when they were shipped off. If the person captaining the ship they were on was not yet infected? well he was fair game for any horrible death he might encounter at their hands - including infection. 

 

But on a tangent stemming from the length of time it takes for the disease to overwhelm an infected person...

 

Spit Ball: Someone up thread suggested Mel was the one to have cured Shireen of this disease. I don't remember if this was stated in-show or just a speculation, but it is a plausible explanation as to why Stannis-the-straight-laced-Lobster would suddenly take up a random foreign religion. It makes me wonder if Mel might have been the one who had the infected doll (dressed with Baratheon colours and sigils) sent to Dragonstone? If she did, she would have made sure she was close by to employ her magicks in time to cure Shireen and earn Stannis' undying respect. The rest - getting him to convert - would also have been child's play. <grin>

 

---------------

janjan, just a friendly nudge, you misattributed this:

 Shimp: Grog for our friend WhiteStumbler!  Even when I read your post, Stumbler, I thought you meant an actual boy and an actual man.  No more grog for me.

That was from Pallas post, not Shimpy's. I thought I was losing my mind for a moment and this show is quite enough to do that.

[DirewolfPup]

Anothermi:

Spit Ball: Someone up thread suggested Mel was the one to have cured Shireen of this disease. I don't remember if this was stated in-show or just a speculation

 

This was me. I remember hearing Mrs. Stannis mentioning this to either Meli or Stannis.

 

Also, we got to see Old Valyria! I never in a million years thought I would see that.

Also! Tyrion saw a dragon!! Huzzah!

Edited May 12, 2015 by DirewolfPup

[DirewolfPup]

Part of me is trying to figure out why Ramsey would insist that Reek walk Sansa down the aisle. What is the goal here? Is he trying to torture Sansa like he does with everyone else? If he truly wanted to rule The North, his best move would be to woo Sansa into actually liking him. Mrs. Roose Bolton certainly is smitten with him. Creating an enemy in Sansa only ensures that you're going to be stabbed on your wedding night. Kinda poetic for Roose. Responsible for the deaths of two wardens of The North.

[Llywela]

Part of me is trying to figure out why Ramsey would insist that Reek walk Sansa down the aisle. What is the goal here? Is he trying to torture Sansa like he does with everyone else? If he truly wanted to rule The North, his best move would be to woo Sansa into actually liking him. Mrs. Roose Bolton certainly is smitten with him. Creating an enemy in Sansa only ensures that you're going to be stabbed on your wedding night. Kinda poetic for Roose. Responsible for the deaths of two wardens of The North.

I honestly doubt he was thinking any further ahead than 'this will be funny'. Ramsey doesn't strike me as the type to look much beyond the whim of the moment.

[gingerella]

Part of me is trying to figure out why Ramsey would insist that Reek walk Sansa down the aisle. What is the goal here? Is he trying to torture Sansa like he does with everyone else? If he truly wanted to rule The North, his best move would be to woo Sansa into actually liking him. Mrs. Roose Bolton certainly is smitten with him. Creating an enemy in Sansa only ensures that you're going to be stabbed on your wedding night. Kinda poetic for Roose. Responsible for the deaths of two wardens of The North.

Could Sansa be so lucky that she avoids sexual contact with a second unwanted and forced-upon-her husband? That would be amazing, wouldn't it? She would then still be "pure" for a third-times-the-charm union down the line...well not that far down the line because she aint getting any older, yanno?  Though ol Walda seems a bit long in the tooth and she's knocked up so...Annnyway, I know that Kill the Boy is now what Maester Aemon says to urge Jon to become the man he can be, but I wonder...if Sansa could not avoid having sex with Ramsey (I throw up in my mouth even thinking about that prospect) and does manage to get her pregnant, I could totally see Sansa killing the baby if it was a boy, just to prevent another Bolton from living and taking control over Winterfell. I know it's out there, but I think Sansa is becoming pretty shrewd nowadays, though I still wonder what would have happened if she'd told LF she did not want to marry Bolton...One thing I know, I can't wait until I see that candle burning in the tower!

[DirewolfPup]

This is betrothal #4 for Sansa (Joffrey, Tyrion, Robin, Ramsey). She's officially beaten Margaery now (Renly, Joffrey, Tommen). Though Marge still leads in number of weddings. Makes me wonder why they didn't give Sansa to Tommen instead. I guess the whole display of "oh I can't marry a TRAITOR's daughter. I'm a king!! lauddy lauddy dahhh."

 

At least Ramsey is the best looking :/ (yes, I realize that Dinklege is attractive, but Tyrion isn't supposed to be. At least not for these times).

[stillshimpy]

Could Sansa be so lucky that she avoids sexual contact with a second unwanted and forced-upon-her husband? That would be amazing, wouldn't it? She would then still be "pure" for a third-times-the-charm union down the line...well not that far down the line because she aint getting any older, yanno?

 

I think Theon's going to lock Ramsay in with the dogs for the night.  

 

Okay, I don't really, but wouldn't that be wonderful?  I think it was just a way of showing that Ramsay will be as cruel to Sansa as he is to everything else and that his promise not to hurt her wasn't worth the air it used up.  

[DirewolfPup]

What do you suppose Cersei wants from LF?

[gingerella]

What do you suppose Cersei wants from LF?

Don't know, but 'tis curious, no?  I could see her having a chat with LF re: the brothel vs. the Sparrows sitch, but OTOH, isn't it common knowledge that he fled KL with Sansa in the confusion after Joff's death-by-frothing? So why on earth would LF walk back into KL? It seems too odd, to say the least. Especially when lately he's seemed fairly open about having Sansa under his wing. He wasn't passing her off as someone else like he did when she first arrived at the Aerie, and the Northerners she's come into contact with know exactly who she as do the Boltons, so it's not exactly super sekrit right anymore. One would think that alone would put LF on the death list with Cersei, but those two have a tete a tete relationship so perhaps she has another angle? Perhaps she wants to enlist LF's more nefarious skills in doing harm to Marge?  Unless Marge actually did go away to High Garden, which if she did, I would find quite odd since it seems like most royals never really leave their marital digs once the yoke is locked in place.

[Anothermi]

Gingerella: isn't it common knowledge that he fled KL with Sansa in the confusion after Joff's death-by-frothing?

 

 

Only to us.  The reason LF was in a boat in the middle of Stannis' destroyed fleet in Blackwater Bay was to not be seen. It's one of the reasons he killed Ser Dontos - so he wouldn't be able to confirm LF's link to Sansa's disappearance. As far as Cersei is concerned, LF was at the Eyrie when Joffrey died. 

 

I think the reason he allowed Ser Dontos' body to drift back to shore with Sansa's necklace and a pouch of money was to strengthen the belief that both Tyrion and Sansa really were the murderers.  I'm just a little surprised Sansa hasn't figured out that the reason she was so dependant on LF was that he conspired to make it appear that she co-murdered Joffrey so she would need his offer of help. (She had rejected all his other offers.) However, enough other crazy stuff has gone down for Sansa, I can believe she'd rather not think that deeply about it right now because if she did, she'd realize she was still in deep shit, and this time with NO ONE on her side. 

 

So, I'm going to guess Cersei sent for LF because she actually needs someone with a conspiratorial mind around to advise her. Now that she is pretty much "the Queen" he's going to have to appear to do what she asks. Last time he tried to refuse her, she ordered her guards to kill him (IIRC) and then stood them down when she saw he understood her point. (God, how long ago was that? I think Ned may still have been alive!)

[Pallas]

So, I'm going to guess Cersei sent for LF because she actually needs someone with a conspiratorial mind around to advise her. 

 

I agree, anothermi, that Cersei probably just wants Littlefinger to join her shrunken-yet-stacked Small Council, since it's now lacking in anyone with political expertise.  Good lord: perhaps Cersei wants to make Littlefinger the Hand. 

 

That's almost as rich as shimpy's suggestion that Theon may trap Ramsay with his dogs.  Which I'm inclined to believe could be deliciously on target.  Flay 'im, Fidos!  Flay 'im in honor of your ancestors the direwolves! 

[ChocButterfly]

So, finally saw the entire episode. Dany, man, that was cold. Every once in a while she shows her crazy Targaryan side. But it was a stupid idea any way, didn't she already killed the heads of the families when she captured the city and had them crucified? Killing the heads now would only transfer the family to the next heir. Yeah, I know she was trying to give a message, but like I said, she already tried that. So, she either kills them ALL, or find another solution, which is what I'm happy she's doing now. I still think she should appropriate all the lands and riches from those families. Then they'd have no more real power. And pay the formers slaves to work with that money, cuz right now, who's farming the lands, working in the industries, etc?

 

I'm starting to think that Ned wasn't such a good guardian of the North, after all. Apparently, one of his bannermen was completely out of control and he never did anything about it. Yeah, Bolton is a Lord and all, but Ned was supposed to be his boss. The fact that these 2 have been apparently killing subjects, raping women and flaying people alive for what seems to be a long time now and getting away with it, well it shows Ned was kind of incompetent. But then comes Jorah and sells some men who were actually committing a crime by trespassing his lands, and he gets a murder sentence? Great Ned, just great.

[WhiteStumbler]

REWATCHED: As much as I dislike Roose, he did get a grudging nod of approval for the quality and detail of his map. The chess pieces for Stannis featured a flaming heart with a stag at the center. The Wall and its castles were pretty much as I thought, I just don't remember seeing this much detail, like there is something called Bay of Seals NE of the Wall.

 

Just south of Castle Black is Queens-something, and SE of that is Last Hearth (where Rickon is leveling up and eating walnuts). Due south of CB are the Dunely Hills and Long Lake is below them. 3/4 of the way down Long Lake is Holdfast* slightly to the west, then Winterfell. Two roads leave Winterfell: one going due south and crossing a river via a ford, another going SSE to Cerwyn and then a river crossing via a bridge.

To the NW of Holdfast is Wolfswood (looking rugged and mountainous) and Deepwood Motte. East of Long Lake is The Dreadfort, the home planet of House Harkonnen, uhm, Bolton.

 

/mapgeekout

 

*digression: Maybe "Holdfast" is the one Bran wanted to rule over-- or was that Ned speculating on what Bran could be after his defenestration?

Edited May 18, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[stillshimpy]

The fact that these 2 have been apparently killing subjects, raping women and flaying people alive for what seems to be a long time now and getting away with it, well it shows Ned was kind of incompetent.

 

No, actually the story went out of its way to include a scene about Robb objecting to and disallowing flaying, then having Bolton complain that Ned Stark was also against it but "A flayed man has no secrets" so under Ned, Bolton was not allowed to flay people. 

 

 

 

But then comes Jorah and sells some men who were actually committing a crime by trespassing his lands, and he gets a murder sentence? Great Ned, just great.

 

That's a darkly humorous take on the whole thing, Choc, but we did have Bolton complaining about killjoy Ned's no-flaying rules and then ....I don't think Jorah selling people because he says they trespassed on his land ought to win some sort of "So you're a Slaver.  You were provoked.  Pardoned!" action.    

 

Because it's just as likely some travelers crossed his land as it is anyone trespassed with sneaky intent.  

I like Jorah, but his own father was appalled and grossed out by what he did.  It wasn't just "That Ned, such a stickler"  ...Jorah got his ass disowned and his father joined the Wall because he was so ashamed of him.  I sort of doubt anyone else took the "so some people who had actually committed a crime" thing seriously.  As in:  Dude, what are the chances when you're looking to sell human beings to make cash, to keep your fancy wife happy, that you just snatch travelers on your land and sell them?  

 

I mean, if his scruples were that shot to shit by marital bliss, I'm sort of guessing Jorah's judgment on what they were, or weren't doing "wrong" at the time, was equally riddled with "isn't that exceptionally convenient to justify his actions" logic.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

Ned had banned flaying,  but it was obvious Ramsey and probably Bolton had been doing it for a long time. You don't get to be an expert like that without having some practice. And what about the murdering and raping? They both also had been doing it for again, a looooong time. Where was Ned all this time?? And, yeah, maybe selling trespassers as slaves is pretty damming on its own, but what the Boltons had been doing (not a one time thing, like Jorah's) was far worst and they never faced any consequence for it. I'm sure some of the stories reached Ned, specially what Ramsey did (Bolton seems to be a lot more careful about it). But there's no way in hell that any of Ramsey's rapes and murders hadn't reached Ned's ear or that people weren't complaining about it. The fact that one of his Lord's bastards was completely out of control and nothing was done about it speaks volume of Ned.

[stillshimpy]

But there's no way in hell that any of Ramsey's rapes and murders hadn't reached Ned's ear or that people weren't complaining about it. The fact that one of his Lord's bastards was completely out of control and nothing was done about it speaks volume of Ned.

 

As horrifying as it is, there's no evidence that rape is against any law in the Kingdoms.  Ned enforced the laws of the Kingdom in his area, he didn't make them.  

 

The story Bolton told about Ramsay's mother and raping her sounds a hell of a lot like something out of Braveheart, so they are actually borrowing from history where a Lord could demand any man's wife, blah blah blah, Misogynistic roots.  

 

As for the "you don't get the good at flaying people unless..." thing, I completely agree, but Bolton actually did complain that Ned wouldn't let him flay, so within the story, Bolton has held forth that Ned Stark impeded his flaying ways.  

 

As for the murder, again Ned enforced the laws, but did not make them.  

 

Slavery is against the law in the Kingdoms and we've been told that.  Although that's at least a little bit of a crock when Littlefinger clearly buys and sells people like slaves.  So from that perspective the "Oh noes, he sold people!" thing is a little eye-roll worthy, but again, his own father was deeply ashamed to the point of joining the Wall over it....so the short version that Jorah told Dany might not be all there is to it.  

[ChocButterfly]

Rape is against the law in Westeros, and so its murder. The show has made that clear. Bolton didn't flay the prisoners because Rob was there and he couldn't directly undermine his authority. But it seemed like he had done it before in his lands. Ramsey seems to do it routinely.

 

Jorah' s father was ashamed of him, because he was like Ned, one of those truly "honorable" men left in Westeros. Although I do agree that there's gotta be more to Jorah's story than what he told Dany. He probably had been selling slaves for some time now and making a business out of it. But it's like you said, Littlefinger has never had any problems selling people, and Gendry had been sold more than once before Mel got him. So, that slavery thing is not that well enforced in Wetweros, is it?

 

ETA: why did Ramsey kept asking Bolton how did he get his wife pregnant? I found that so weird, because he asked it twice, even Roose had to joke that if he needed to have it explained. What did Ramsey mean by that?

Edited May 18, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[stillshimpy]

Well, pretty clearly Ramsay was referring to Roose's wife size.  It was beyond sophomoric, but that's what he was talking about.  Yet another charming note about how women in this story are treated.  

 

 

 

Rape is against the law in Westeros, and so its murder. The show has made that clear. Bolton didn't flay the prisoners because Rob was there and he couldn't directly undermine his authority. But it seemed like he had done it before in his lands. Ramsey seems to do it routinely.

 

When did the show make that clear?  Because it pretty clearly isn't entirely.  Now we've seen or heard about people being sent to the Wall as "rapers" (oh brother, what a word) so there's that, but there's also been a suggestion that a Lord may have dominion over the people in his holding.  Like Bolton talking about raping Ramsay's mother.  There seems to be some "spoils of war, rights of the Lord" thing at play.  Which is what the whole William Wallace (Braveheart) thing was about too.  The rights of the laird of that land to ....I just don't even know how to put this....partake of any of the wives of the men on his land.  Since this story seems to be adhering to some form of the English laws surrounding land ownership and the rights of the lords over their lands, that might be part of it.  

 

Anyway, Bolton has complained that Ned Stark interfered with his essential Bolton stuff, but I do think it is verging on the downright silly to try to hold Ned in anyway responsible for the horror that is Bolton.  He didn't grant him those lands.  We do know that Ned enforced the laws and the crown handed out the various holdings.  I don't know how Bolton got his lands, but he did chafe at all things Stark, so may have kept things on the down-lo.  We've also been given to understand that the North is 1000 miles, at least.  Ned is no more responsible for Bolton than Robert would be, or any of his bannermen would be.  

Whatever Jorah did, he did it openly enough that apparently everyone knew and whereas whatever Bolton was up to was accepted by the North (and all the other people, let's not forget we've heard of Tywin Lannister gutting an entire family like a bunch of fish) ....Jorah managed to bring down the condemnation of Ned, his own father and the King.  It's just possible that Jorah fucked up a lot more than he's letting on and the very fact that he always complained that "Ned Stark wants my head" as if he'd done nothing wrong and tried to justify breaking the law makes me unwilling to side with him on any of this.  He apparently broke laws, knew he was breaking them, ran away when caught and his own family was ashamed of him.  That's all on Jorah, not on Ned.  

 

There are circumstances where what we would consider murder are not treated as being murder, but justified killing.  So we've gotten a shit-ton of conflicting messages here. 

 

As for Bolton, he did complain that Ned would not let him flay people.  It was not just in thee scene with Robb, by the way.  Unless I'm just remembering this entirely wrong, it was when Bolton was talking about betraying Robb to Walder Frey and how it was difficult not to show his hand, listening to Robb talk.  Then Bolton said something about Ned in there also.  

 

It's possible that there are rules for War and rules for peace too.  Just like the whole rape and pillage, spoils of war stuff.   Honestly, the story has been wildly inconsistent with what is lawful and what isn't, so who knows at this stage.  

 

Here's one thing we do know:  Jorah couldn't return home.  His father disowned him and Ned apparently had ever intention of enacting a death sentence against him.  

 

So Jorah did things like fight as a mercenary, spy and god knows what else while hanging out with the Dothraki (and by the way, that suggests some alarming things about what Jorah thinks it is okay to do to women also).  

 

I just don't really think Jorah's much of a victim of persecution in his past.  I do like the character, I just think he likely earned his exile and was probably kind of a shit most of his life....until he found something to believe in the form of Dany, it would seem.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

It is possible that the Boltons flayed in secret just to keep tradition alive. Peasants don't have good lobbyists.

[WhiteStumbler]

 

shimpy: Which is what the whole William Wallace (Braveheart) thing was about too.  The rights of the laird of that land to ....I just don't even know how to put this....partake of any of the wives of the men on his land.

But it turns out that there was no such "right", at least in Western history. GRRM might have been influenced by Braveheart, or there might just be no idea too loathsome for him to pick up and write into his (things that shall not be mentioned).

[stillshimpy]

I know, Stumbler, it actually may have stemmed from something Voltaire wrote (a satirist) , but Braveheart depicted it and, not to put too fine a point on it, but it seems like Martin sometimes borrows from the sensationalized vs. the real history from eras like The Wars of the Roses.  So he doesn't seem to be above borrowing from alleged, vs. real history.  

 

In terms of this story, they've been wildly unclear.  Characters talk about raping left and right, but then we've also been told that "rapers" are sentenced to the Wall.   

 

This has not been stated, or even necessarily implied, but I've assumed that only women of any status end up having any protections in place.  Plus, remember Cersei, Sansa and all the maids of the castle in Blackwater awaiting the blade if the worst were to happen.  Not to mention...

 

I don't know if you heard how Oberyn's sister died, but The Mountain is alleged to have misbehaved quite a bit there.  There was stuff with Brienne.  When the Hound and Arya were at the tavern before the slaughter (and much talk of Chickens) the tavern keeper's daughter was in some serious peril.  

 

Pretty clearly certain men felt they could rape with impunity.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillshimpy