S01.E19: Chapter Nineteen

[VLove]

For you. For me. For the author of this definition. But for Jane and the show? No idea. Definitions are subjective, you know.

 

See, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I do not believe that definitions (or science) is subjective.  My mind is blown at the idea that the dictionary is a subjective work.  Seriously. Blown.  

 

Either way, Irlandesa pretty much summed it up in a way that I was not able to so I am just going to defer to that post from here on out.

 

It was great to meet and share ideas with you!  See you after Chapter 20.

[FurryFury]

I do not believe that definitions (or science) is subjective.

 

It's not science. Science is breaking of the hymen. Virginity is more of a social construct. Some may equate it to physical, and sadly it has been done throughout history. As I've already said, I feel like the show also implied something like that, thus my comment.

 

My mind is blown at the idea that the dictionary is a subjective work.  Seriously. Blown.

 

It's written by people, and people ARE subjective. Social sciences are subjective especially.

[LaughingOne]

I don't know that he needs improv.  I do think his stories next season shouldn't be so dour.  Being a new parent could be a lot of fun because babies can be weird.

Agreed. All comedies need their straight men to react to the absurdities of the more flamboyant characters around them. And with the women in his life - Jane, Luisa and Petra - there is plenty of absurdity. I don't think the issue is JB so much (his proposal video shows the guy has a sense of humor about himself), but Rafael's storylines are so damn depressing. Seeing him deal with some entertaining baby antics would be a welcome change next season,

[Soobs]

t.

 

Finally, I am completely UN-invested in whether or not Jane stays a virgin (aside from it being the name and concept of the show).  I just want her to know that she doesn't have to be married to the idea of virginity (no pun intended) just because she made that decision in the 5th grade.  YOU CAN MAKE NEW DECISIONS BASED ON NEW INFORMATION!!

I have worked hard to forget about Jane and her grandma's stupid, antiquated ideas of valuing female virginity and this scene brought it back. I was hoping her seemingly sensible friend was going to say what you said.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Soobs

[LADreamr]

I just wish they'd have a more intelligent conversation about why to be careful about sex. Not just the physical risks, but maybe the fact that it does have a lasting emotional effect on you, so you want to make sure your partner is worth it. Some people are less affected by the emotional part of it, but I think Jane would take it very seriously. Taking that approach would make more sense and be a lot less sexist and controlling, which I feel her grandmother often is.

Edited April 23, 2015 by LADreamr

[LoneHaranguer]

 

The notion of "protecting the hymen" is what leads girls to giving blow jobs to their boyfriends or having anal sex before the old-fashioned missionary position....because 'virginity' and 'purity.'

Or to avoid pregnancy.

[Irlandesa]

That too but I've heard of it often enough in relation to keeping one's virginity. 

[ElTVaddict]

I'm kind of unsure as to whether or not I think it fits into their characters because, like I've mentioned when discussing other episodes, for a while he was completely the opposite.  She was the doubter and he was the one who felt they'd work things out.

 

I liked the idea of a therapist but I didn't love how the episode was executed.  I think it's a little bit warped by the fact that Rafael wanting to have sex with a 23-year-old woman who told him she wanted to have sex with him too is something he'd see as heading down a 'dark path.'  And he'd be right because Jane really didn't want to have sex.  She just didn't want to have a baby as a virgin. 

 

And I'm confused about how we're supposed to see Michael.  He was a very good cop with Petra.  But then he essentially let Nadine go?  So he has let Petra go when investigating Zaz's murder by letting her take what could have been considered evidence.  He broke into a doctor's office and stole medical information.  And now he lets a cop go who compromised the investigation.

 

It's arguable but no, I don't think so.  Not completely.  She was drawn to Rafael and there was a scene where she consciously decided she'd focus on her fiance.  Then she learned about lies and chose to break up with him.  But her feelings for Rafael complicated the issue and that's what they've had her express. 

 

Maybe.  And if they do, I'm out.  I may be out anyway.  This show is just not much fun for me any longer. 

ITA!!!

[marihunc]

By the way, he can sing, too! I'm not worthy.

 Oh yes, he can :)) A little gift for you, because you ARE worthy:

 

 

;)))

[Lady Calypso]

I was ok with Jane and Rafael starting to work things out, but Rafael not wanting to is understandable. He has too much going on right now; adding on stress of trying to work through a relationship is clearly not what he wants right now. But Jane makes sense in that she has tried to fight through problems with her relationships. He's not ready and I needed Jane to realize that. 

 

Michael is a good guy but he does questionable things. Letting Nadine go? Damn, dude. But I like him and Petra together a lot and would love to see themselves give it a shot. The only hesitation is that Michael and Petra are exes of Jane and Rafael, so I'm afraid that connection that they have will hinder their relationship somehow. 

 

I don't blame Rogelio for being upset at Xo.

 

Bye-bye Roman. Again.

[bettername2come]

I knew this from when he was on Ravenswood, but I'd forgotten - Brett Dier is an excellent crier. It even rhymes!

[Guest]

"You don't go from asking someone to marry you to breaking up. That doesn't just happen!" - nice hypocritical humor here, Jane.

I think Jane's point was within days Rafael proposed then broke up.   That's not at all what happened with Michael.

 

And yes, that skinny dipping scene was HOT!!!! I'm glad nothing but making out happened, as Jane would have regretted it, and Rafael would have felt guilty for going along with it knowing how important this all is for Jane.

They did have chemistry but I was kind of appalled at the thought of waiting that long to have sex and then finally doing it in the extremely well-lit pool where you both work.  Hotel rooms tend to overlook pools.  I know some people get off on being watched but Jane shouldn't be one, yet.  Her first time would land on the internet for all to see.  

 

The hymen discussion is so antiquated and wrong.   If you're counting hymen condition as 'virginity' then Jane wasn't a virgin at all because she was getting gyn. exams.  (Which, by the way, young women no longer need to do if they're not sexually active or having issues.)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

At the beginning of the episode, I was glad that Rafael wasn't just spinning out because of what his mother told him (although I do think that was a contributing factor). He was very clear and logical with Jane about their differences and I can understand that he felt defeated and frustrated with Jane being disappointed in him so often lately. I was surprised that he agreed to go to couples therapy at all. He seemed to have given up on their relationship.

 

When he broke up with her again at the end of the episode, I was disappointed but it was realistic to me. Like Rogelio, Rafael is proud (for different reasons, of course). He thinks that he is setting Jane free from how crappy his life is. As he and the therapist pointed out, he has been through a lot in a very short amount of time. His best friend was killed, he found out his wife was having an affair with said best friend (who was already dead so he didn't have the opportunity to have it out with Roman), his wife falsely accused him of being abusive, his father was killed, his sister was locked up, his sister gave her votes to his ex-wife and then ran off, his mother admitted that she let herself be bought off, and everything at work has been going to hell in a handbasket. That's a lot for one person to deal with. Obviously Jane has had some obstacles to deal with in the same time period, but she still has her mom and her abuela while Rafael has no support system but Jane, who has grown frustrated with the choices he has made. I'm not a huge fan of his "I must martyr myself to give the person I love her freedom from my fucked up life," but I do understand why Rafael is doing this.

 

Andie has some serious nerve to show up at Jane's baby shower and then ask her not to tell Michael she's a stalker. Do that on your own time, lady! Same for Jane Seymour. Slap him after the shower, not while he's singing in the middle of Jane's baby shower.

 

I've done the "stare at another person" exercise before and I felt the same way as Jane and Rafael. I felt silly and weird and then my nose itched. And I only had to do it for a minute!

 

What annoyed me was Xiomara saying that Jane almost having sex with Rafael was compromising who Jane is. As Jane said, being a virgin isn't who she is. When Xiomara said that being a virgin was important to Jane, I wanted to Jane to say, no, that's important to ABUELA. Just because Jane waited this long doesn't mean she should keep waiting. I'm not saying that Jane should have sex to fix her relationship with Rafael. But if she feels that she's ready to have sex, then why not?

 

I am not surprised that Nadine worked for Sin Rostro, but I don't really care about her. Good riddance!

 

I'm glad that Andie told Michael the truth. When she said there was something she ahd to tell him about Jane, I thought she was going to make up some crazy lie, like that Jane had stalked her. Heh, I must have her confused with Petra.

 

And good for Petra for being crafty enough to get Roman's phone so she could call the police!

 

I knew this from when he was on Ravenswood, but I'd forgotten - Brett Dier is an excellent crier. It even rhymes!

OMG, that's why he has looked so familiar to me? Normally I check IMDB when that happens but for some reason (ahem, laziness) I never bothered to look so I assumed he just had one of those faces. I am totally cracking up now that Michael was Luke on Ravenswood and I didn't know until now!

Edited January 24, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Irlandesa]

I think the show has clearly established that waiting for marriage to have sex has long stopped being something Jane did to please her Abuela. While I think pleasing her Abuela is important to Jane, it's not overwhelming important if 1x3 was anything to go by - there she stopped her sex date with Michael because of her uncertainty about her relationship/future with him. Jane loves her Abuela but she knows she's not perfect (e.g. advising Xo to have an abortion).

I thought that's what 1x03 was about. But then we kept seeing that fucking wilted flower throughout the first season so I do think abuela has a part in this.  She may not be thinking about whether or not her abuela would approve every time she thinks of sex but abuela's POV is still deep inside of Jane.  

 

What I did find creepy and weird was Rafael's conclusion that because Jane wanted to sleep with him, he had "corrupted" her. I felt he was infantilizing her with that reasoning - taking on responsibility for Jane's very grown-up decision (good or bad).

Jane sort of sets up her relationships like that. Like her beach test where she was basically willing Rafael to "prove" he knew her by essentially telling her what she said she wanted to do was wrong.  And then there was her reaction to---spoiler for an episode that airs early in the second season

Michael telling her that she's not in love with Rafael which I hated but apparently she loved.

 

I don't think it's infantalizing to care about the reaction of someone you care about.  Or to not want to be that thing she regretted for the rest of her life. I agree that he shouldn't have been as alarmed by it as he was but he wasn't wrong. Jane would have regretted it.  And, as she told her mother, part of what was motivating her was the belief that if they had sex, things would get fixed-Rafael would be fixed.

[Irlandesa]

I just think a dead flower is such a strong negative image associated with the loss of virginity that I don't see 'girl power' when it's referred to. But I have long took issue with abuela's sex shaming. It's probably the one thing I dislike about her and it's something I dislike a lot.

Rafael didn't break up with her over the pool incident. He broke up with her for the same reasons he had been contemplating before they decided to go to counseling, before the pool incident.

[Irlandesa]

I have no problem with her decision to not have sex. I am a big advocate of waiting until the time is right and doing it for the right reasons. I certainly didn't rush into anything. And making that choice, to me, is girl power if it's about making empowered choices.

I just think using that flower as symbolism, which the show does when it comes to this issue with Jane, is just so strongly associated with a grandmother instilling fear into her young grandchild undercuts how much I personally can agree that this decision is divorced from that fear. Heck, even though she stopped, there was a fire alarm the first time she was in a hotel room with Michael.

And boy do I disagree that chastity is shamed by the mainstream media. Women's sexuality is shamed by the MSN and not so MSM. And that includes any aspect of it. You have to be a certain kind of virtuous at a certain age. You have to be a little more sexual to stay 'relevant' as you age but not too sexual because then you'd be a slut who is a hypocrite for not being the same person the girl was at 16.

[MrsMommy]

Wrong episode 

Edited May 1, 2017 by MrsMommy