Juliette Silverton: She's A Vet By Trade

[Prevailing Wind]

 

I've been DVD rewatching one of my favorite shows - Enterprise.

Me, too.  I'm up to season 3, disc 3. Trellium-D shows more emotion than Juliette.

[Prevailing Wind]

I don't think she's a vet anymore.  Once the hexie kicked in, I'm sure the animals can sense that and they'd get very angry at their doctor for not being human anymore.

[OtterMommy]

I don't think she's a vet anymore.  Once the hexie kicked in, I'm sure the animals can sense that and they'd get very angry at their doctor for not being human anymore.

 

I'd agree with this.  Remember when she woged in the vet's office (after Henry's cameo)?  The animals went crazy....l

[OtterMommy]

This whole transformation process of Juliette turning into Eve, is just a very poorly done version of Fred turning into Illyria on the tv series Angel.  Yes, the character transition process is much different, but the end results seem to be very similar.  Regardless, Grimm has really done a piss poor job of reintroducing Juliette as the character Eve. 

 

Oddly enough, I'm going to respond to this in the Adalind thread...

[OtterMommy]

I have a few problems with the way she's playing Eve.

 

One, her acting already has a robotic quality. Even when she was Juliette and she was able to have actual expressions, I couldn't tell if she was happy or sad or angry. Her definition of evil is just to smirk all of the time. I said all of this before Eve ever came into the picture.

 

Not only that, but someone pointed out that at one point she sounded angry, so she can't even do robotic consistently.

 

And even when playing robotic, there are nuances that can come through. It should be HEARTBREAKING that a once vivacious and kindhearted woman has turned her back on everyone she loves and now has no emotion. We should feel some kind of pity for her or SOMETHING. 

 

Other actors have played robotic, but I've still sensed the humanity underneath.

 

Bitsie is a one-note surface kind of actor. She takes what she's directed to do and just does it without thinking about it.

 

I see what you're saying.  Personally, I didn't have the same reaction to what I've seen of Eve (I haven't seen most of the recent episodes, after all).  I did actually feel the Eve vs. Juliette tension is some of the scenes and I did feel that I did see some of the humanity.  As for "robotic," I don't think it is a good choice for the role--but I also don't think it was her choice.

 

I do agree with you that she is probably a pretty "obedient' actress and does what she is told to the best of her abilities, whereas other actors might challenge the direction a bit (I suspect we're getting that with DG this season) or, well, let's just say "to the best of their abilities" gets them to a different place.

[OtterMommy]

I wish I could see it.

 

Like in the scene where Monroe basically calls her out for Juliette's behavior. He has all of this anger. Bitsie stuck to "robotic" for the entire exchange, but I would have liked to see just one moment, some small spark of recognition, that would have made the scene even more awesome than me loving Mornroe yelling at her.

 

I agree that scene was awkward, at least between Monroe and Juliette.  I'll be honest, I'm not sure if this next memory of mine comes from the same scene or a different one--even though I haven't watched all the episodes, all the scenes of Juliette, Trubel, and Meisner looking a computer screens are blending together in my mind--there was one scene where I really saw a flash of recognition in her when dealing with Nick.  

 

I'll admit--it is uneven.  I mean, the last half of season 4 was even more uneven.  I think we saw some of Bitsie Tulloch's best performances (when she was in the jail cell and Nick came to see her) followed by her worst (when Rosalee came to see her, then that ridiculous scene in the Spice Shop).  I like BT as a person and I'm going to choose to believe that some of this is due to direction and writing, although I also know that she isn't the strongest performer in the cast.  I think if they keep her in her comfort zone--and give her strong direction--she can be quite good.  It's when she or they step out of that zone that we start to have problems.

 

I mean, if they can keep Russell Hornsby and Reggie Lee in such a tight pocket, why not Bitsie? (And then let RH and RL out and give them something to do!)

[Darklazr]

Sigh.  The special snowflake should have stayed dead along with Momma Grimm and the awesome Grimmabago!

Edited March 17, 2016 by Darklazr

[ottilie]

Okay - I don't know if someone mentioned it elsewhere, but the sixth episode of Portlandia, season 6 has a funny extended skit with Juliette/Bitsie in it. It isn't the most brilliant one they've ever done, but conceptually it's pretty good. The idea is that she calls a cab instead of a Lyft (which Fred Armisen's character Doug drives) and at the cab company, it is a scene of historical office furniture, phones, and people from the 70s or 80s who move at a really slow pace and Carrie Brownstein drives in an anemic fashion. ha.   oh.. there is a link on youtube but it doesn't show the whole thing and was edited down quite a bit  

Edited March 17, 2016 by ottilie

[OtterMommy]

Okay - I don't know if someone mentioned it elsewhere, but the sixth episode of Portlandia, season 6 has a funny extended skit with Juliette/Bitsie in it. It isn't the most brilliant one they've ever done, but conceptually it's pretty good. The idea is that she calls a cab instead of a Lyft (which Fred Armisen's character Doug drives) and at the cab company, it is a scene of historical office furniture, phones, and people from the 70s or 80s who move at a really slow pace and Carrie Brownstein drives in an anemic fashion. ha.   oh.. there is a link on youtube but it doesn't show the whole thing and was edited down quite a bit   

 

Oh yes, I saw this when I aired.  It was probably the best thing in that episode (the episode as a whole was a letdown).  It was also a very straight forward role--I don't think anyone could have played it any better than Bitsie Tulloch--but I'm not sure anyone could have played it worse, either.  That's not meant as a slam against the actress, just that there really isn't much to do with what is written there (kind of like her role in "The Artist").  

 

Compare her role here to Silas's when he was in Portlandia, and you'll see what I mean.

[icewolf]

This fact also made me switch from questioning Bitsie's acting ability to questioning David Giuntoli's.  These two have terrible on screen chemistry for boyfriend/girlfriend IRL.  When you think about it NickDG  doesn't really do much acting wise. 

This commonly happens to real life couples that have to act like they are together in a show/movie. My theory is that they always hold back to keep part of their relationship private, and they end up lacking chemistry onscreen. Actors with just a professional relationship don't have to do that and can be more convincing.

 

Only true exceptional actors, which DG and BT sadly aren't, can take it to the next level and have explosive on screen chemistry like Brad and Jolie.

Edited March 17, 2016 by icewolf

[OtterMommy]

This commonly happens to real life couples that have to act like they are together in a show/movie. My theory is that they always hold back to keep part of their relationship private, and they end up lacking chemistry onscreen. Actors with just a professional relationship don't have to do that and can be more convincing.

 

Only true exceptional actors, which DG and BT sadly aren't, can take it to the next level and have explosive on screen chemistry like Brad and Jolie.

 

This could all be true...

 

But I'm not so sure about Brangelina...wasn't the last (only) movie they were in together "Mr and Mrs Smith"?  I think, in their case, it was more the onscreen chemistry inciting off-screen chemistry than the other way around (and vroom....I just veered us WAY of topic....)

[OtterMommy]

"Would the special snowflake exist if BT had not asked the writers to ramp up her character? No. Juliette would be back to a minor player on the show and not the one that burned down the trailer, set up Momma Grimm and her neighbors. "

(Quote from the 513 thread..I can't seem to tag it as a quote when I'm using my iPad)

Again, we don't know what happened. We don't know that BT asked the writers to ramp up her character and, if she did, we don't know what the circumstance around that was. For example, she could have gone to them and said, "You are going to make Juliette a major character OR ELSE"...OR...the creators could have asked her how things are going, what she'd like, etc (and, according to Claire Coffee, these conversations are very common) and BT could have said something like, "Hmmm, I kind of wish that Juliette was a little stronger" and the creative team decided to go to town on that.

And, again, there is NOTHING WRONG with any actress in a scripted show discussing her role with the creative team and, unless it is a show where the script is pre-determined (for example, it is developed from an existing novel) giving some feedback. Just like there is NOTHING WRONG with an actor doing the same thing.

In the end, it is the creative team who is responsible for this, not Bitsie Tulloch. BT could have gone in there with her bitchy pants on and made all the demands in the world*** but the creative team always had the right to say no.

***I don't believe for a second that this happened...I was just using hyperbole to make a point. BT is, from every account I've read, a very nice non-diva.

[spaulding]

I see what you're saying.  Personally, I didn't have the same reaction to what I've seen of Eve (I haven't seen most of the recent episodes, after all).  I did actually feel the Eve vs. Juliette tension is some of the scenes and I did feel that I did see some of the humanity.  As for "robotic," I don't think it is a good choice for the role--but I also don't think it was her choice.

 

Not only that, but someone pointed out that at one point she sounded angry, so she can't even do robotic consistently.

 

Tulloch also said that Eve was a badass.  Who wanted Eve to be badass?  Tulloch or the writers?  Or was it a collaboration--as Tulloch likes to say?

 

I think that Tulloch has a little more leeway in terms of how her character evolves. 

 

I think that Clare Coffee is the one who was screwed.  She doesn't know how to play Adalind.  Is it a long con?  She has to cover all the bases. 

 

Re: direction

 

I thought that the whole point of acting is for the actor to interpret the character/scene.  Tulloch may get direction for her character/scene, but isn't she also supposed to bring her own interpretation to her character/scene?  If not, what's the whole point of acting?  What's the point of her acting?

 

I can't help but be amused by robotic badassery.  Maybe that should be taught in acting schools.

 

Okay - I don't know if someone mentioned it elsewhere, but the sixth episode of Portlandia, season 6 has a funny extended skit with Juliette/Bitsie in it. It isn't the most brilliant one they've ever done, but conceptually it's pretty good. The idea is that she calls a cab instead of a Lyft (which Fred Armisen's character Doug drives) and at the cab company, it is a scene of historical office furniture, phones, and people from the 70s or 80s who move at a really slow pace and Carrie Brownstein drives in an anemic fashion. ha.   oh.. there is a link on youtube but it doesn't show the whole thing and was edited down quite a bit

 

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be watching.  Tulloch's scene was OK, but there was nothing special about it.  Other actors could have done as well.  At least Tulloch looks like she has a heartbeat. 

 

The MVP of the scene was the cab driver's glamour. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by spaulding

[Darklazr]

I agree with you, Ottermommy. When I say special snowflake, I mean that the writers, rather than seeing someone with limited acting ability who should stay in her wheelhouse, made her this super-duper awesome, wiggy, robotic tech-breaking, amazing bad-ass who knows everything and always has that "I'm a bad-ass" look  and smirk. She's a ridiculous caricature at this point.

 

I blame the writers and beefing up the role of an actress clearly not up for the challenge.

 

I disagree.  As it was pointed out BT clearly from interviews had some say in what she wanted for Juliette/Eve and we ended up with this mess where the character is based suited for minor scenes on the show.

[orza]

Bitsie only got what she wanted because the network was ok with it. Someone like Mark Harmon can throw his weight around to get whatever he wants because he is the show. Supporting actors not so much.

 

I'm also not so sure things happened the way Bitsie was telling it in interviews. Maybe it was more like Bitsie said she would like more to do so the producrers came up with the hexenbiest/action-bot idea, got the network to sign off on it and then told her about it. Actors are always trying to make it sound like they have more influence and control that they really do. For example, a costume designer sends an actor a couple of sketches of costumes he has decided on and asks "So what do you think?" and the actor is saying "I collaborate with Bob on my costumes" in interviews.

[Darklazr]

What I meant was, and I think it's what Ottermommy was saying, was that even if Bitsie was the most diva of all of the divas, and she went in ranting and raving about wanting to be a bad-ass, the people in actual control of the show could have told her to shove it. She's easily replaceable. 

 

But they didn't. They went ahead and gave her what she wanted. Like she was some amazing asset. It was their choice to beef up her role.

 

There are some actors with real power. The ones who are popular and hold the show in their hand. Or huge movie stars.

Bitsie is not one of them. 

 

Seriously?!  BT is dating the male lead on the show!  

[orza]

Bitsie is not essential to the show. She is a mostly unknown C-list actor in a supporting role. Dating David Giuntoli does not give her any leverage. NBC is her contract partner, not the producers. NBC could release Bitsie from her contract and still hold DG to his contract if they wanted to be rid of her. The show is a business.and NBC will act in the best interests of the network regardless of what actors demand.

[ottilie]

I think this has Bitsie Tulloch's personal french bulldog in the photos

 

http://komonews.com/news/local/new-k-9-named-grimm-visits-set-of-grimm

 

By the way, I think the writers just have a challenging time coming up for things for her character to do. Monroe is a source of information but isn't in a position to fight crime himself, Hank and Wu are police assistants, Rosalee is smart and knows potions and magical herbs. Juliette did some internet research and played the unknowing bystander for a while, but after a while they need other tasks to occupy the character.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ottilie

[Darklazr]

Juliette should have remained dead at the end of s4.

[blugirlami21]

Regardless of whether Bitsie asked for more to do or not, the writers haven't done an even somewhat ok job of writing it.

I can see how it could be compared to Fred/Illyria on the surface but Fred actually died as Fred. She didn't undergo a character asassination before hand and Illyria was a completely realized character on her own merits.

Eve is the product of torture, brainwashing, and conditioning. And she's not nearly as interesting.

[OtterMommy]

By the way, I think the writers just have a challenging time coming up for things for her character to do. Monroe is a source of information but isn't in a position to fight crime himself, Hank and Wu are police assistants, Rosalee is smart and knows potions and magical herbs. Juliette did some internet research and played the unknowing bystander for a while, but after a while they need other tasks to occupy the character.

 

I agree, and I think it is mostly because of missteps in earlier seasons.

 

In season 1, I think they did fairly well showing Nick trying to hide this new life from her.  However, I think the introduction of Rosalee took away some of the potential for Juliette.  As a vet, Juilette could have been a source of medical knowledge for Nick (once she was in the know), but then Rosalee started filling that slot.  I do think the two could have co-existed, shall we say, if Rosalee's role and knowledge were made a bit more narrow, but that isn't what happened.

 

While we're on season 2, I still think the writers missed a massive opportunity.  The problem with Nick and Juliette being a couple from the beginning is that the viewers never got to see their relationship develop.  When Juliette came out of her coma and didn't remember Nick, they SHOULD HAVE then spent the season re-creating the relationship so that the viewers could be invested in it like they are for Monroe and Rosalee's, but nooooo.  Instead we get the Renard obsession which was really unnecessary as nothing really came of it--neither character ultimately changed in any way and the plot essentially stayed the same.  Honestly, I would have much rather have had a season of Nick woo-ing Juliette up to the point where he HAD to tell her his secret than all that.

 

In season 3, they really struggled with Juliette's role.  She couldn't be an expert on anything for Nick (except for dog bloat and horse protozoa) because Rosalee was already all that.  If I were in charge (ha ha!), I probably would have doubled down on her role of as the supportive girlfriend and all that and, if they needed an expert, let her speak Spanish (because that also would let them use Pilar.  I miss Pilar....)  You know, Nick stymied by a case, so he talks to Juliette.  Nick steps in it with Monroe, he talks to Juilette.  And, during this time, they could still work on their relationship--because, people in relationships still have to work their relationship (but, keep all that at sort of low hum against other things because this is NOT a relationship show....)  Oh, and also not make her an idiot.  I'm thinking of that bit with her college roommate when Nick tells her that the roommate is a fuchsbau, but DON'T SAY ANYTHING and the first thing Juliette does is say, "I know you're a fuchsbau--but don't worry, Nick's a Grimm!"  Gawd, that whole thing was awful....  I liked the general idea of her having known (but not known) wesen in the past, but the scripting was just horrifically bad....

 

So, season 4...I mean, in a general way, the hexenbiest stuff was not initially "bad."  It could have been good if, you know, other people were writing this show.  But that writing team just could.not.handle it.  At the level they are at, they should know their limitations and not try and work beyond them.  They could have done something else with Juliette--something serious enough to affect Nick but not so serious that it turned into flat out character assassination.

 

I think one of the biggest mistakes of the show was trying to "switch the roles" of Adalind and Juilette.  Again, other writers might have been able to pull it off, but not these writers.  Pretty much everyone I know personally has dropped the show because of season 4--and most of them give reasons that indicate that they were betrayed by the turn of Juliette (and then nearly snort coffee out their nose when I tell them about season 5!).  Grimm would have been much better off to keep everyone on their same team and worked from there.  Really, the only character who could have believably switched sides, based on how the show has been written from season 1, is Renard--and even that is sketchy at times.

 

I know there are people who hate Juliette. I'm not one of them (as you can probably tell) but I am horribly frustrated with what this show has done with her.   There was potential with her character, and they've completely wasted it.

[Darklazr]

Juliette in very small doses was fine, because BT does not have the acting chops for a larger role on this show.  

 

Renard and Juliette's obsession was gag worthy and I would rather see Renard making out with his cell phone any day of the week! Once the show started giving Juliette more screen time in s2, my "small doses of the character" and her overall lack of facial expressions does not cut it.

 

I am happy the show did NOT write a love story for Nick and Juliette after the obsession, because what was written for Monroe and Rosalie was great and I loved the actors chemistry.   Juliette bores the hell out of me and I wish the writers had left the character dead after what they wrote in s4.

 

My wishful thinking is everyone is still dealing with the voodoo man wrecking havoc on Portland and there are no babies on this show!

[spaulding]

The one difference between Adalind's situation and Eve's situation is that Adalind did her thing in order to rape Nick--there was no question that was her intent.  Eve didn't know that the evening was going to go down that way.  I'm not giving her a pass--there is this word that any man or woman should be empowered enough to say and that is "No."  And, not that I'm advocating force, but Renard (er, Evenard) is bigger than Rachel and could have disentangled himself/herself/whatever.  So, yeah...the latter case was bad...but it was different than what Adalind did.  And, therefore, different coals should be used for the raking.

 

I'm OK with that.  The writers are writing similar scenarios for both women.  Neither of them gets a pass.

 

For example...has Juliette (yes, Juliette!) actually been brainwashed to the point or lost any sense of self to the point where not only is willing to steal someone's identity but also basically prostitute herself?  Had she known ahead of time that Rachel and Renard had a physical relationship and therefore known what could or would happen, would she have been able to perform (and, yeah, THAT would have been flat out rape)?  If she is willing to at least try to sleep with Rachel for information, who else would she sleep with and what else would she do?

 

Adalind has been manipulated by men since the pilot.  She's been isolated in a dungeon, mindfucked, and whatever else in order for her to submit.  The Royals also manipulated her to do their bidding when Adalind mistakenly thought that they had Diana.

 

Arguably, she has been brainwashed as well and should get a pass for a lot of the heinous stuff that she did.  Personally, I don't give her a pass no matter what her mindset was. 

 

I also don't give Juliette a pass despite the so-called brainwashing.  The writers want Juliette to be a victim and to be empowered at the same time.  Am I supposed to sympathize with her because Nick or Meisner screwed her over?  When she takes an active role in Black Claw?  When she's "eh?" about sleeping with Black Claw lady?  Or that she wasn't herself when she tried to murder Nick or to conspire to murder Mama Grimm? 

 

She became a biest against her will, so she wasn't herself when she tries to murder Nick.  Therefore, she's exculpated from her actions.  I don't believe any of that.   At some point, she needs to have some responsibility for her actions. 

 

[same with Nick.  At some point, he's no longer a victim when he's living with Adalind.  He doesn't trust her, but he chooses to return to that depressing compound.  It's irritating that Adalind is the manipulator in the relationship while Nick has some version of Stockholm syndrome.  Adalind is the evil one while Nick is always her victim.]

 

Meanwhile, Adalind doesn't get a pass.  At all.  No matter how used she's been.  Everything she's done is evil, and she's 100% responsible for everything she has done.  She's never been played as some victim.

 

I'm trying not to sound like an asshole, but I'm sure that I sound like one.  I just think that how Juliette/Eve has been written, the writers want it both ways.  She's a victim, so she gets a shield from criticism and from her actions.  She's also been empowered, so she gets a pass for whatever she does, including threatening Adalind.  But it seems to be acceptable because Adalind is always evil and because Juliette is always the wronged victim who wants her life back.

 

I'm not excusing anything that either of them has done. 

 

But, most of all, I find this whole thing--the way this show has handle sexuality and relationships--to be offensive and nauseating.  And I'm afraid of what they are going to try next.

 

I agree.  Adalind, Juliette, and Trubel have been treated very badly by the writers.  I'm going to hate-watch the episodes that I missed, and I cringe at what has happened to them in these episodes. 

 

I have no idea how they could treat women so badly on this show. 

Edited April 17, 2016 by spaulding

[Darklazr]

I'm OK with that.  The writers are writing similar scenarios for both women.  Neither of them gets a pass.

 

 

Adalind has been manipulated by men since the pilot.  She's been isolated in a dungeon, mindfucked, and whatever else in order for her to submit.  The Royals also manipulated her to do their bidding when Adalind mistakenly thought that they had Diana.

 

Arguably, she has been brainwashed as well and should get a pass for a lot of the heinous stuff that she did.  Personally, I don't give her a pass no matter what her mindset was. 

 

I also don't give Juliette a pass despite the so-called brainwashing.  The writers want Juliette to be a victim and to be empowered at the same time.  Am I supposed to sympathize with her because Nick or Meisner screwed her over?  When she takes an active role in Black Claw?  When she's "eh?" about sleeping with Black Claw lady?  Or that she wasn't herself when she tried to murder Nick or to conspire to murder Mama Grimm? 

 

She became a biest against her will, so she wasn't herself when she tries to murder Nick.  Therefore, she's exculpated from her actions.  I don't believe any of that.   At some point, she needs to have some responsibility for her actions. 

 

[same with Nick.  At some point, he's no longer a victim when he's living with Adalind.  He doesn't trust her, but he chooses to return to that depressing compound.  It's irritating that Adalind is the manipulator in the relationship while Nick has some version of Stockholm syndrome.  Adalind is the evil one while Nick is always her victim.]

 

Meanwhile, Adalind doesn't get a pass.  At all.  No matter how used she's been.  Everything she's done is evil, and she's 100% responsible for everything she has done.  She's never been played as some victim.

 

I'm trying not to sound like an asshole, but I'm sure that I sound like one.  I just think that how Juliette/Eve has been written, the writers want it both ways.  She's a victim, so she gets a shield from criticism and from her actions.  She's also been empowered, so she gets a pass for whatever she does, including threatening Adalind.  But it seems to be acceptable because Adalind is always evil and because Juliette is always the wronged victim who wants her life back.

 

I'm not excusing anything that either of them has done. 

 

 

I agree.  Adalind, Juliette, and Trubel have been treated very badly by the writers.  I'm going to hate-watch the episodes that I missed, and I cringe at what has happened to them in these episodes. 

 

I have no idea how they could treat women so badly on this show. 

 

I disagree.  We were told from the very beginning that Hexenbiest are manipulative and saw Adalind in action several times on the show.  Catherine asked Adalind in s2 if she still had feelings for Renard and the answer was does it really matter and her mother said she trained her well!

 

Juliette started off as the good girlfriend and morphed into a hexenbiest that should/could have given Nick time to deal with their new relationship and her first thought is to dump him and screw his boss.  No.  We all make choices in life and Juliette chose to screw over all of her friends and boyfriend.

 

Adalind from the very beginning was a villain and she does not get a pass for all of her heinous acts even if she was doing them for Renard.  Adalind told Renard in s2 after she did not get the key, that she did "it" which was screwing Hank for HIM and she does not get a pass on rape.

 

Trubel?  Eh.  I want Momma Grimm back on screen.

[OtterMommy]

I also don't give Juliette a pass despite the so-called brainwashing.  The writers want Juliette to be a victim and to be empowered at the same time.  Am I supposed to sympathize with her because Nick or Meisner screwed her over?  When she takes an active role in Black Claw?  When she's "eh?" about sleeping with Black Claw lady?  Or that she wasn't herself when she tried to murder Nick or to conspire to murder Mama Grimm? 

 

I don't give her a pass with a brainwashing excuse either (although, reading my post that you quoted, I admit it totally sounds like I do).  I mean, I would if she had no memories of her life as Juliette....but she does, which I think means that she has enough, I don't know--sense--to know what she's doing.  What I was trying (unsuccessfully) to say is that Juliette has debased herself or at least allowed herself to be debased enough that she is willing becoming a prostitute.  Which is really not all that different from what Adalind did.

[spaulding]

I don't give her a pass with a brainwashing excuse either (although, reading my post that you quoted, I admit it totally sounds like I do).  I mean, I would if she had no memories of her life as Juliette....but she does, which I think means that she has enough, I don't know--sense--to know what she's doing.  What I was trying (unsuccessfully) to say is that Juliette has debased herself or at least allowed herself to be debased enough that she is willing becoming a prostitute.  Which is really not all that different from what Adalind did.

 

I could arguably understand the brainwashing of Juliette because she was abducted and made into a weapon.  However, Adalind has also been manipulated too.

 

If they're both biests now, don't they have the same characteristics?  They should be both manipulative and capable of doing questionable stuff.   They both used sex for manipulation.

 

My main beef is that Adalind the biest is always evil but Juliette/Eve the biest gets a pass.  Juliette's history has been parceled to determine when her actions her not her own and therefore, is a victim.  Adalind's life could arguably be parceled as well, but she doesn't get a victim card.

 

This show is trying to make me hate women.  Ugh.  Hate Adalind.  Hate Juliette.  I question why?  There will be another biest fight between them.  For Nick?  He's the prize at the end of the rainbow?  Ahhh, no. 

 

Adalind could have been the villian that people loved to hate.  She could have been unapologetic in her evil.  She could have been Nick's equivalent in a Rogue's Gallery.  Like Batman and Talia. 

 

The show wanted to make her good,  Now, the show is going to make her bad again.  Except for Bud and his buddies, nothing good happens when wesen are in groups, i.e., in the law firm.  Like Juliette, this show doesn't know what to do with Adalind.  Right now, she has nothing, so she goes to her enemy for protection and occasional good times.  When she's getting her life together and got a job, it's the start to turn her back to evil.  What?

 

Even now, Juliette's supposed to be empowered.  How does this show women's empowerment?  She sleeps with Black Claw lady for information.  How can she be empowered if she's a shell of her former self?  I can't believe that this show stripped a woman of her being, of her memories, of her history.  She's nothing but a robot to do the bidding of some organization.  She was kidnapped and made to submit to do so. 

 

[i'll hate-watch the episodes I didn't watch because now, I'm angry about what's going on with the women on this show.  I may loathe Juliette, but she doesn't deserve what has happened to her.  Neither does Adalind.  They won't get a pass from me, but this show has done a disservice to them.]

 

[same with Trubel.  The last time I saw her, Meisner was opening the cage, and she had a black eye.  WTF?]

Edited April 17, 2016 by spaulding

[spaulding]

I disagree.  We were told from the very beginning that Hexenbiest are manipulative and saw Adalind in action several times on the show.  Catherine asked Adalind in s2 if she still had feelings for Renard and the answer was does it really matter and her mother said she trained her well!

 

Juliette started off as the good girlfriend and morphed into a hexenbiest that should/could have given Nick time to deal with their new relationship and her first thought is to dump him and screw his boss.  No.  We all make choices in life and Juliette chose to screw over all of her friends and boyfriend.

 

Arguably, I think that Adalind could have been manipulated and be the manipulator.  Even if Adalind has been manipulated, I don't give her a pass. 

 

What I didn't like was that Juliette has done the same things, but it seems like she gets a pass.  She's a victim because she drank some potion.  It shouldn't have excused her attempted murder of Nick and Mama Grimm's murder. 

 

Now, they're both biests.  They should both be manipulative.  If so, Juliette should be criticized for her actions as a biest.

 

However, Adalind is forever evil.  Juliette is forever the victim, so she should get a pass for anything she does.  No.  Both should equally be raked over the coals for their actions. 

 

I still loathe Juliette.  I still root for scheming Adalind (not the neutered version who's living with Nick).

[Darklazr]

Arguably, I think that Adalind could have been manipulated and be the manipulator.  Even if Adalind has been manipulated, I don't give her a pass. 

 

What I didn't like was that Juliette has done the same things, but it seems like she gets a pass.  She's a victim because she drank some potion.  It shouldn't have excused her attempted murder of Nick and Mama Grimm's murder. 

 

Now, they're both biests.  They should both be manipulative.  If so, Juliette should be criticized for her actions as a biest.

 

However, Adalind is forever evil.  Juliette is forever the victim, so she should get a pass for anything she does.  No.  Both should equally be raked over the coals for their actions. 

 

I still loathe Juliette.  I still root for scheming Adalind (not the neutered version who's living with Nick).

 

Juliette the hypocrite will never get a pass from me, she turned around and screwed Renard after keeping being a hexenbiest from Nick.  She set up Momma Grimm and the neighbors to be slaughtered and burned down Nick's family legacy and is just a bitch.  I keep hoping the writers will buy a clue and kill off Juliette once and for all!

 

Adalind spent sixteen episodes doing squat!  It's a nice job if you can get it, CC!

[OtterMommy]

My main beef is that Adalind the biest is always evil but Juliette/Eve the biest gets a pass.  Juliette's history has been parceled to determine when her actions her not her own and therefore, is a victim.  Adalind's life could arguably be parceled as well, but she doesn't get a victim card.

 

Interesting...I've always felt the exact opposite, that Adalind gets a pass on her past actions because she was a 'biest when she committed then (the fact that her most evil actions happened when she was not a 'biest is usually ignored), but Juliette is held responsible for everything she did as a 'biest.  And, I'm not saying she isn't--I'm saying that Adalind is also responsible for everything that she did (something that it seems to me the show is trying very hard to whitewash.)

 

I will say this...I see both of them as victims.  And I do not use the word "victim" sympathetically.  I don't mean someone who has been hurt in some way.  I mean someone who allows themselves to be put in positions where they can be hurt and therefore not responsible for their own actions.  You know, think "victim complex."  And I'm really sick of it....

[spaulding]

Sorry for the late response.

 

Interesting...I've always felt the exact opposite, that Adalind gets a pass on her past actions because she was a 'biest when she committed then (the fact that her most evil actions happened when she was not a 'biest is usually ignored), but Juliette is held responsible for everything she did as a 'biest.  And, I'm not saying she isn't--I'm saying that Adalind is also responsible for everything that she did (something that it seems to me the show is trying very hard to whitewash.)

 

I think that both of them get a lot of criticism.  I'm not a fan of Juliette, so I'm not inclined to give her a pass.  And I think that there was some backlash against Juliette after she burned the Grimmabago and set up Mama Grimm.

 

I will say this...I see both of them as victims.  And I do not use the word "victim" sympathetically.  I don't mean someone who has been hurt in some way.  I mean someone who allows themselves to be put in positions where they can be hurt and therefore not responsible for their own actions.  You know, think "victim complex."  And I'm really sick of it....

 

I agree.  I'm irritated how the writers have written them.  Both have been whitewashed for different reasons.  Adalind to make the Nick/Adalind relationship tolerable.  Juliette to give her character something to do. 

[OtterMommy]

From the 5.21/5.22 thread:

Quote

Except when Juliette did all those bad things like burn the Grimmebago, and set up Nick's mom to be killed, along with massacreing half the neighborhood, she was still Juliette.   She knew damn well what she was doing.   Her personality, ego, id, whatever were fully in order at the time.   It was only when she became Eve that they were supressed.   She should have no problem understanding them.   It's what she did as Eve that might be confusing her, but there is no doubt she fully knew what was happening at the time she did anything pre-Eve.

Quote

It's not so much remembering what she did as a hexenbeist, it being overwhelmed by the gravity of her actions and the repercussions going forward now that she is herself again. Kinda like getting drunk, losing all inhibitions and making a fool of yourself and then waking up the next morning and realizing what a jackass you were and how will you face everyone, only much, much worse.

I actually agree with both of these viewpoints.  HexenJuliette WAS Juliette, still dealing with Juliette's experiences and emotions.  I think the reason she went batshit crazy was because, deep down, she did harbor resentment towards Nick for what he was and what had happened to her because of that.  If she hadn't had such conflicted feelings for him, I think she probably would have just left town to create trouble somewhere else.

I think that what defined "Eve" was that Juliette, though whatever it was that she went through after being shot by Trubel, shut down those feelings for Nick and for what she did. As long as she could keep the hexenbiest within her assigned to Eve, she was able to keep from dealing with all that.

Now that she's back to Juliette, I do agree that she's now dealing with a lot of remorse.  I think @orza's analogy of doing things when you are under the influence that you would not ever dream of doing when you were sober is a very good one.

[Darklazr]

5 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

From the 5.21/5.22 thread:

I actually agree with both of these viewpoints.  HexenJuliette WAS Juliette, still dealing with Juliette's experiences and emotions.  I think the reason she went batshit crazy was because, deep down, she did harbor resentment towards Nick for what he was and what had happened to her because of that.  If she hadn't had such conflicted feelings for him, I think she probably would have just left town to create trouble somewhere else.

I think that what defined "Eve" was that Juliette, though whatever it was that she went through after being shot by Trubel, shut down those feelings for Nick and for what she did. As long as she could keep the hexenbiest within her assigned to Eve, she was able to keep from dealing with all that.

Now that she's back to Juliette, I do agree that she's now dealing with a lot of remorse.  I think @orza's analogy of doing things when you are under the influence that you would not ever dream of doing when you were sober is a very good one.

Juliette made the choice to be with a Grimm AFTER the coma, obsession with Renard, memory loss, and a bunch of stuff before the rape.  She could have ended the relationship long before Momma Grimm came back to town with Adalind and the baby.  So, for me, I don't have any sympathy for Juliette's situation when she knew how dangerous it was to be around Nick.

[OtterMommy]

50 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Juliette made the choice to be with a Grimm AFTER the coma, obsession with Renard, memory loss, and a bunch of stuff before the rape.  She could have ended the relationship long before Momma Grimm came back to town with Adalind and the baby.  So, for me, I don't have any sympathy for Juliette's situation when she knew how dangerous it was to be around Nick.

You're right...she could have walked away at any point.  However, given how she was finally "let in" on the secret, how easy would that have for anyone to be?  She did love Nick and had basically told him that the next time he proposed, she'd say yes.  It's easy for people on the outside to say someone can just walk away from a relationship, but the reality is much different for the people who are actually IN the relationship.  Also keep in mind that, once Juliette was finally told what was going on, Adalind was completely out of the picture for her and Nick UNTIL Kelly came back into town with her.

And did Juliette really know how dangerous it would be to be in Nick's life?  Yeah, Adalind put her in a coma and there was that zombie situation, which involved Nick, but not her...but she also made friends with Wesen and discovered that someone who she had known for quite some was also Wesen. Honestly, I'm not sure she realized how dangerous things could be *for her.*

The show has asked us to forgive Adalind for all that she has done, which I just can't.  But, in Juliette's case, it is an easier sell for me.  I still think it is all ridiculous, but I'd prefer pretty much anything over the continuation of "Nadalind."

[Darklazr]

5 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

You're right...she could have walked away at any point.  However, given how she was finally "let in" on the secret, how easy would that have for anyone to be?  She did love Nick and had basically told him that the next time he proposed, she'd say yes.  It's easy for people on the outside to say someone can just walk away from a relationship, but the reality is much different for the people who are actually IN the relationship.  Also keep in mind that, once Juliette was finally told what was going on, Adalind was completely out of the picture for her and Nick UNTIL Kelly came back into town with her.

And did Juliette really know how dangerous it would be to be in Nick's life?  Yeah, Adalind put her in a coma and there was that zombie situation, which involved Nick, but not her...but she also made friends with Wesen and discovered that someone who she had known for quite some was also Wesen. Honestly, I'm not sure she realized how dangerous things could be *for her.*

The show has asked us to forgive Adalind for all that she has done, which I just can't.  But, in Juliette's case, it is an easier sell for me.  I still think it is all ridiculous, but I'd prefer pretty much anything over the continuation of "Nadalind."

I guess Marie being hunted by a Reaper and Nik killing the man outside of the house that she lived in was not reason enough for Juliette to run and not walk once she learned the truth about Grimm's?  How about finding out that Kelly faked her death for over two decades because she was a Grimm and left Nick to be raised by Marie? I am sure we can go back and forth over should Juliette have walked or stayed in the relationship which was a long term one, but she clearly had issues and threatened to leave after Nick had sex with another woman in their bed. Juliette loved being part of the Scooby gang and in the "know", but had no problems throwing shade in Nick's face when things went wrong.  Juliette did a lot of crap on this show toward the end of s4 and should have remained dead, dead.  I am not a Trubel fan, but I would have rather seen more of her and Meisner versus not dead Juliette Eve.

[ShadowFacts]

The way I look at it is they took Juliette's character too far.  Pretty much past redemption.  She was a supportive girlfriend, in the dark, then in the know.  The relationship with Nick was functional.  Maybe not 100% healthy at all times, but whose is?  It was when Adalind inserted herself that she took her wrong turn.  Her reactions were excessive.  I think they are now doing the same type of thing with Renard -- he has suddenly gone too far bad.  Not saving Meisner when he could have, watching Bonaparte choke Adalind.  For her, she was hexened up and Adalind's vengefulness was at the root of it.  For him, the root of it is wanting to be one of the wesen that take over the world? 

[Lii]

Juliette burned books. Death penalty. End of story. No appeal.

She also killed a bunch of people, but that actually bothers me less, because everyone on this show kills a bunch of people on the reg and no one seems to give any fucks, so, why should I, I guess. 

Seriously though, bitch can't act. If we're just keeping her around for vagina equity, there are plenty of out of work actresses who would love a job on a shitty magical show that isn't on the CW, I'm sure. I never understood why shows put up with this shit when there are plenty of other crappy fish in the sea. You hired her, you thought it was going to be cool, it wasn't cool, it didn't work out, so MOVE ON. 

[Lii]

Maybe it was one of those haunted wigs that possesses you? Like the haunted lucha mask in the godawful Chavo episode? And next season Nick could tote around the wig and just randomly put it on her at random times for the lulz and it would be inappropriate and terrible but hilarious as fuck, so why not? I mean, if we have to sit through another Juliette storyline, it might as well be as stupid as humanly possible. Like go ALL OUT with the stupidity. End game levels of stupidity. And then in the last episode, use the stick to open up another giant pit in the floor and shove her in it to close the Portland Hellmouth. 

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

It was so hilarious, because she went from overly robotic Eve, and once the Sia wig fell off, she became weepy Juliette. Freaking A it was just all bad. I've been watching a character on another show who had to do this same kind of thing, and his transitions are just so amazing. And did you notice the very second she became Juliette she turned into a DID? Her feet never hit the floor due to Nick carrying her everywhere.

It's all so bad. 

I found her annoying before, but she'll be insufferable next season. Again, in the hands of a talented actress it might not be so bad. But we don't have one of those.

OMG!  What happened to super badass not dead Juliette Eve and her ability to do push ups without touching the floor and not using her hands to open doors or locks?!  I, too, noticed Nick carrying not dead Juliette Eve around like a baby.

Once I found out DG and BT were a couple in real life, there was no way Grimm was going to really kill off Juliette and make it permanent!

[Lii]

3 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

OMG!  What happened to super badass not dead Juliette Eve and her ability to do push ups without touching the floor and not using her hands to open doors or locks?!  I, too, noticed Nick carrying not dead Juliette Eve around like a baby.

Once I found out DG and BT were a couple in real life, there was no way Grimm was going to really kill off Juliette and make it permanent!

I'm sure once they encounter a car door, she'll open it without her hands again. That's like her best trick. SO BADASS. 

[Lii]

5 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

HA! We can watch her short circuit from being weepy and pathetic to attempting bad-assery. And Nick can use it as some sexy role playing game. It would also tie into this show's love of making people do stuff they can't control and eventually having it lead to something sexual. There's not a lot of autonomy in Grimmland. 

I cant believe she turned back into Juliette before she got to say, "Danger, danger!"  Next season for sure every episode will be named "It Wasn't Your Fault." and "The Biest Made Me Do It."

And Nick is going to look into those watery eyes and turn into the guy he was before he got some stones."Mother? What mother? Let me carry you around some more and look at you with my love eyes."

Sad, but totally true. 
 

At some point we'll hear a crackling noise and smoke will start coming out her ears, and we'll find out she was the BuffyBot all along. The real Juliette will be revealed as having been held in the Royals' creepy magical dungeon this whole time, therefore absolving her of all wrongdoing, and half the remaining episodes can be dedicated to her staring woodenly off into the distance, no-selling her ordeal, while Nick and the gang go to rescue her, minus Monrosalee, who  are shuffled offscreen because MAGICAL BABY NUMBER THREE IS COMING, GUYS, BREAK OUT THE HAT BONG CHAMPAGNE. 

[Lii]

5 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

But didn't you hear Juliette? She has so many fee-fees! Just wook into her wittle expressionless eyes and see how sowy she is for all that she did to the people she loved. She feels all icky about it. She won't do it again. Time out!

I'm telling you, the Monroe-Rosalee baby will be not at all drama-filled or magical or be a hindrance in any way. 

Now, with the Adalind/Juliette/Diana connection, THAT will be filled with drama and who's the mama? Usually it's who's your daddy, but in this case we know that. The maternity will be up for grabs, along with Juliette going through an existential crisis. THE BABY WILL SAVE HER. 

Plus, the Adalind/Juliette connection will bring an extra layer of awkward that I'm sure Nick will handle in a reasonable and rational way to make everyone happy.

BWAHAHAHA.

Oh, right. This is Grimm.

Juliette should get together with Maddie from Fear the Walking Dead for a staring contest. I would pay dollars for this. Like at least three of them. Maybe even four. The power of their combined wooden stares could stop both Black Claw and the entire zombie apocalypse in SECONDS.

[icewolf]

Limitless is canceled right? Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio has some free time now.

They can just bring back Nick's mom, and just say Kelly Burkhardt faked her death again so Juliette can get another free pass.

[spaulding]

On 5/23/2016 at 5:31 PM, SweetTooth said:

But didn't you hear Juliette? She has so many fee-fees! Just wook into her wittle expressionless eyes and see how sowy she is for all that she did to the people she loved. She feels all icky about it. She won't do it again. Time out!

And how is Juliette/Nick as end game more palatable than Adalind/Nick?  Neither gets a pass for their actions.  The writers try to whitewash--and inadvertently, defang--Adalind.  It will be nothing compared to how much whitewashing the writers will do for Juliette, so she can remain the special snowflake who always wins because she's some badass. 

On 5/23/2016 at 5:31 PM, SweetTooth said:

Now, with the Adalind/Juliette/Diana connection, THAT will be filled with drama and who's the mama? Usually it's who's your daddy, but in this case we know that. The maternity will be up for grabs, along with Juliette going through an existential crisis. THE BABY WILL SAVE HER. 

What's friggin' aggravating is how Adalind has always been a prop for Juliette.  Juliette is the special snowflake, and Adalind is always weak and pathetic.  She exists in Grimm to be abused by men and to highlight how Juliette is an alpha badass. 

This show cold have potentially transformed Adalind into a good hexie.  Instead, she's boring.  (That's Nick's grimm superpower.  He makes women bland.)

Juliette gets to have it both ways.  In the end, she'll be redeemed or excused for what happened to Mama Grimm and the Grimmabago.  Meanwhile, she gets to play a rude badass who creeps around Fake Portland in ridiculous wigs. 

[OtterMommy]

5 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

At first I thought the only good thing about them pairing Nick with Adalind, is that he and Juliette had as much chemistry as paste, so I thought Miss Feisty would at least fire up the furnace. Alas, once you get into Nick's Vortex of Blanding, you can't escape. You will inevitably become a helpless female who needs constant saving.

 

Ha!  It's funny because it's true.  It is also sad because it's true....

[Lii]

8 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

Because Juliette wasn't herself when...oh, wait...ummm...

She will heretofore no longer be referred to as Bad-ass Eve who can open doors with her mind. From now on she will be known as Justified Juliette who has reasons for laying waste to so many lives, including getting her boyfriend's mother killed and making him point a gun at his best friend and lighting the trailer on fire. POOF! All gone, because she's so, so sorry.  They will re-blandify her and up the ante by making her weepy and self-flagellating. Should be fun to watch.

I knew the arc was coming. I just don't know how much of it I'll be able to stand.

At first I thought the only good thing about them pairing Nick with Adalind, is that he and Juliette had as much chemistry as paste, so I thought Miss Feisty would at least fire up the furnace. Alas, once you get into Nick's Vortex of Blanding, you can't escape. You will inevitably become a helpless female who needs constant saving.

Nope. You've seen the last of Sia. She symbolically and literally shed her wig. She will now be Beige Wallpaper all of the time. Only now we'll get the added bonus of Nick and everyone around her trying to make her feel better about what she did. Everybody will acquire amnesia and only think about making Juliette feel better. And they're hoping the viewers have amnesia as well. 

They make cats for that now, I hear...