Unpopular Opinions

[Esmeralda]

Lots of fun!  I could definitely see fans enjoying this. Naturally I perfer my three-season version (I really don't like this version with the emphasis on men, but if you were going to have kids and follow what happened in real life, this is the way I would want it.

Unfortunately because Aaron Spelling insisted on four year contracts, yours is nothing more than a dream - Shannen never would've signed another four-year contract, not even for Holly.  And The WB would've insisted on hunky make guest stars so you'd be stuck with them - and a Season Seven and Eight.

But isn't it fun to dream?

Edited September 1, 2017 by Esmeralda

[HunterHunted]

My unpopular opinion is that I don't have much faith in how the show might have turned out even with Constance completely in charge. I don't think she had any appreciation of the kind of continuity and story bible you need for genre shows. We're given rules for how this universe functions and then the rules are thrown away as needed. Personal gain is terrible except for when it isn't. Good witches don't freeze except for when we need them to. Prue was the head cheerleader, student body president, and model student except for when she was a rebellious hellion. Prue's powers are directed by her eyes except for when we want to randomly give her astral projection so her powers are now mental. Astral projection never should have been one of Prue's powers. It's not a natural progression from telekinesis. Astral projection is traditionally a mind power associated with empathy and prophecy. They only correctly did astral projection with Rex Buckland. Astral projection should have been Phoebe's power. Levitation should have been Prue's, though it shouldn't have been separate from telekinesis. It's not much a progression from moving objects to physically moving yourself.

I also think Burge didn't do a great job of fully fleshing out the essential characteristics of each sister and how they related to each other. Prue is passionate, bossy, ambitious, logical, reserved, and dutiful. It's the war between her passion and duty that leads to logic being her most defining trait other than bitchiness. Piper is nurturing, protective, conflict avoidant, emotional, whiny, not a risk taker, and dutiful. To the extent that she's a mediator, it's only because she's conflict avoidant. Prue and Piper are closer in age, but they also have their obligation to duty in common. Phoebe is passionate, emotional, protective, uninhibited, and insecure. Some of the conflict between Phoebe and Prue is that they are both passionate people, but Phoebe lacks Prue's sense of duty and ambition. The loss of Prue and introduction of Paige doesn't necessarily mean that everyone moves up a step in the sister ladder. You have to evaluate what traits Prue had, whether it would make sense for Paige to have those traits too, or evaluate whether it would make sense for Piper and Phoebe to manifest some of those traits more strongly in the wake of Prue's death.

Paige comes in the picture and it makes perfect sense that she's independent and ambitious. She's protective and emotional, but she doesn't have that same Piper and Prue have/had. She had no siblings and her behavior changes because of her parents' death.

To simply say that they are older, middle, and youngest sister doesn't fully encapsulate how they related to each other. However, I never got a good sense that the writers fully understood the characters all that well. Or if they did understand the characters, Spelling and the CW put enough pressure on Kern that so much of the half decent storytelling went to pot. I actually think that Prue had already experienced a bit of character degradation even in season 2. Becoming a photographer made no sense for her. 

[Apprentice79]

16 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

My unpopular opinion is that I don't have much faith in how the show might have turned out even with Constance completely in charge. I don't think she had any appreciation of the kind of continuity and story bible you need for genre shows. We're given rules for how this universe functions and then the rules are thrown away as needed. Personal gain is terrible except for when it isn't. Good witches don't freeze except for when we need them to. Prue was the head cheerleader, student body president, and model student except for when she was a rebellious hellion. Prue's powers are directed by her eyes except for when we want to randomly give her astral projection so her powers are now mental. Astral projection never should have been one of Prue's powers. It's not a natural progression from telekinesis. Astral projection is traditionally a mind power associated with empathy and prophecy. They only correctly did astral projection with Rex Buckland. Astral projection should have been Phoebe's power. Levitation should have been Prue's, though it shouldn't have been separate from telekinesis. It's not much a progression from moving objects to physically moving yourself.

I also think Burge didn't do a great job of fully fleshing out the essential characteristics of each sister and how they related to each other. Prue is passionate, bossy, ambitious, logical, reserved, and dutiful. It's the war between her passion and duty that leads to logic being her most defining trait other than bitchiness. Piper is nurturing, protective, conflict avoidant, emotional, whiny, not a risk taker, and dutiful. To the extent that she's a mediator, it's only because she's conflict avoidant. Prue and Piper are closer in age, but they also have their obligation to duty in common. Phoebe is passionate, emotional, protective, uninhibited, and insecure. Some of the conflict between Phoebe and Prue is that they are both passionate people, but Phoebe lacks Prue's sense of duty and ambition. The loss of Prue and introduction of Paige doesn't necessarily mean that everyone moves up a step in the sister ladder. You have to evaluate what traits Prue had, whether it would make sense for Paige to have those traits too, or evaluate whether it would make sense for Piper and Phoebe to manifest some of those traits more strongly in the wake of Prue's death.

Paige comes in the picture and it makes perfect sense that she's independent and ambitious. She's protective and emotional, but she doesn't have that same Piper and Prue have/had. She had no siblings and her behavior changes because of her parents' death.

To simply say that they are older, middle, and youngest sister doesn't fully encapsulate how they related to each other. However, I never got a good sense that the writers fully understood the characters all that well. Or if they did understand the characters, Spelling and the CW put enough pressure on Kern that so much of the half decent storytelling went to pot. I actually think that Prue had already experienced a bit of character degradation even in season 2. Becoming a photographer made no sense for her. 

I always felt that Constance should have given Prue omnipresence as her passive power or  the ability to copy herself with 3 being the magical number for Prue. Prue could only make 2 clones of  herself.  I do agree with you that Prue should have been able to levitate herself with her telekinesis.  Prue has done that.  It never should have been a separate power for Phoebe.  Astral projection could have been a progression of her premonitions and not a separate power.  The sisters' original powers were supposed to grow at a tremendous level never seen  before in past Warren witches. They  could do things that no other witches could. Not even their descendants could..

I hated that Prue became a photographer and that she became really good at martial arts. Prue being able to use her hands instead of her eyes was a nice progression. Piper should have been able to freeze without  raising her hands, just like Phoebe should have been able to get a premonition without touching. There were instances in season 1, where Phoebe would look at somebody and get a premonition.  I never felt that the sisters' 3 powers had to be connected at all. Melinda Warren's 3 powers did not connect at all.  Prue, Piper and Phoebe were each supposed to get an offensive power, defensive power and a passive power that would work in tandem to fight evil.  

I too hated the personal gain rule.  I personally feel that it should have been a consequence for Phoebe after her stint as Evil Phoebe.  For a limited time, Phoebe's powers would be constrained as punishment for willingly turning evil and betraying the power of 3. 

[AsYouWish]

I've now watched most of S1, the first few episodes of Season 2, and a few episodes from sometime during Season 3 that I caught on TNT. This was my first exposure to Charmed and I still haven't seen any Paige episodes yet, so keep in mind that these are my first impressions and that some of my opinions may become a little more normal and popular over time :)

A major one: Phoebe is my favorite. I'd always heard she's the most hated sister, but so far she's the main reason I'm still watching the show. I can see why she's the type of character who would annoy people, and I don't usually gravitate towards the free spirits who are chronically irresponsible, but like someone else said Phoebe gives the show most of its sparkle, warmth and humor to me. She makes mistakes but seems sincere about wanting to learn from them and I think she's the character who's been given the most interesting and consistent mix of strengths and shortcomings. I feel like a show with just Prue and Piper would be flat and lifeless. 

You thought loving Phoebe was unpopular? Brace yourself for this one: I don't like Piper at all, who seems to be the almost unanimous fan favorite. What scares me is all I've read about Piper being at her very best in S1. That was her best? How bad is is her worst? ;) I'm stealing this from somewhere, but to me Piper possesses Prue's worst traits without Prue's best ones. Piper is snarky in a way that comes across as bitchy, always a pessimistic malcontent, critical of everyone and everything, and bitter and dour when I'm probably supposed to think she's just anxious and shy. She complains about whatever the situation is and then complains when that situation she supposedly hated changes in any way. We're supposed to think she's 'the sweet one', but HMC almost never even smiles, snippily delivering her lines through gritted teeth and as if she's constantly furious at the entire world. She snaps at her sisters even more than Prue does. The writing actually shows her as caring less about the innocents than the allegedly not as sweet Phoebe and Prue do. Piper is mainly concerned with her own love life and her obsession with having a conventional life rather than other people. I am missing something, and probably more than one something, because this character resonates with so many people and has even been singled out as the best sister in the few articles I read before starting the show. I am not a constant ray of sunshine myself and often gravitate towards snarky characters, but Piper radiates this sourness and contagious negativity that just really turns me off. Maybe that will change! I actully let out a little sigh of relief when I read this thread this morning and saw a couple of other people who don't like her much either. 

Is it unpopular to think that Andy, Leo and their romances with Prue and Piper are really boring and feel somewhat forced? Save me a seat at what I suspect is a small table of people who feel that way :) I was actually kind of disappointed when Leo popped back up towards the end of Season 1 and had almost no reaction at all to Andy's death. And I'm the kind of person who tears up at commercials!  

I can't say I loved the first season. It felt like the show couldn't settle on what it wanted to be: a lighthearted, high energy show with serious moments or a serious supernatural drama with splashes of humor? A show with broader arcs or only self-contained episodic storytelling? A show where the women's romances played a minor role or a major one? Like someone else said, their powers and the rules about how they can be used seem poorly thought out. The show's tone felt inconsistent to me. Sometimes it was one of those shows that tries too hard to be everything and therefore does nothing very well. 

I did like it well enough to keep watching, if only so I can join in your discussions! Women banding together to defeat evil is always a good time, and I think they do a very good job developing the relationship between Prue and Phoebe.  

Edited September 12, 2017 by AsYouWish

[Esmeralda]

10 hours ago, AsYouWish said:

I've now watched most of S1, the first few episodes of Season 2, and a few episodes from sometime during Season 3 that I caught on TNT. This was my first exposure to Charmed and I still haven't seen any Paige episodes yet, so keep in mind that these are my first impressions and that some of my opinions may become a little more normal and popular over time :)

A major one: Phoebe is my favorite. I'd always heard she's the most hated sister, but so far she's the main reason I'm still watching the show. I can see why she's the type of character who would annoy people, and I don't usually gravitate towards the free spirits who are chronically irresponsible, but like someone else said Phoebe gives the show most of its sparkle, warmth and humor to me. She makes mistakes but seems sincere about wanting to learn from them and I think she's the character who's been given the most interesting and consistent mix of strengths and shortcomings. I feel like a show with just Prue and Piper would be flat and lifeless. 

You thought loving Phoebe was unpopular? Brace yourself for this one: I don't like Piper at all, who seems to be the almost unanimous fan favorite. What scares me is all I've read about Piper being at her very best in S1. That was her best? How bad is is her worst? ;) I'm stealing this from somewhere, but to me Piper possesses Prue's worst traits without Prue's best ones. Piper is snarky in a way that comes across as bitchy, always a pessimistic malcontent, critical of everyone and everything, and bitter and dour when I'm probably supposed to think she's just anxious and shy. She complains about whatever the situation is and then complains when that situation she supposedly hated changes in any way. We're supposed to think she's 'the sweet one', but HMC almost never even smiles, snippily delivering her lines through gritted teeth and as if she's constantly furious at the entire world. She snaps at her sisters even more than Prue does. The writing actually shows her as caring less about the innocents than the allegedly not as sweet Phoebe and Prue do. Piper is mainly concerned with her own love life and her obsession with having a conventional life rather than other people. I am missing something, and probably more than one something, because this character resonates with so many people and has even been singled out as the best sister in the few articles I read before starting the show. I am not a constant ray of sunshine myself and often gravitate towards snarky characters, but Piper radiates this sourness and contagious negativity that just really turns me off. Maybe that will change! I actully let out a little sigh of relief when I read this thread this morning and saw a couple of other people who don't like her much either. 

Is it unpopular to think that Andy, Leo and their romances with Prue and Piper are really boring and feel somewhat forced? Save me a seat at what I suspect is a small table of people who feel that way :) I was actually kind of disappointed when Leo popped back up towards the end of Season 1 and had almost no reaction at all to Andy's death. And I'm the kind of person who tears up at commercials!  

I can't say I loved the first season. It felt like the show couldn't settle on what it wanted to be: a lighthearted, high energy show with serious moments or a serious supernatural drama with splashes of humor? A show with broader arcs or only self-contained episodic storytelling? A show where the women's romances played a minor role or a major one? Like someone else said, their powers and the rules about how they can be used seem poorly thought out. The show's tone felt inconsistent to me. Sometimes it was one of those shows that tries too hard to be everything and therefore does nothing very well. 

I did like it well enough to keep watching, if only so I can join in your discussions! Women banding together to defeat evil is always a good time, and I think they do a very good job developing the relationship between Prue and Phoebe.  

Keep in mind that a lot of the opinions you might have heard probably came from people who have seen the entire series so their opinions changed as they watched.  Mine sure did. Phoebs was always my favorite, too - UNTIL later on...it's because I love her so much in Early Charmed that I hate her so much in Latter Charmed.  We'll see if you end up feeling the same way.

I honestly did like Piper in Season One.  I understood her desire to be "normal" and she did seem shy in that season.  I started disliking her in Season Two with the way she used both Leo and Dan, and especially the way she treated Leo once she told him that he was the one.  Her being the universal favorite definitely isn't always the case with every fan.  I always thought that if she had to be with someone unnormal, why couldn't it be Mark?  "Dead Man Dating" is one of my favorite episodes, as is 'The Witch is Back" "Wicca Envy" and "That Seventies Episode" I'd love of know what you thought of those. In Season Two, it's "Morality Bites", "P3 H20", "Heartbreak City" and "Chick Flick"  Again, would love to know what you thought of them.

I get the feeling that you might be one of those fans that will like the Paige Seasons more than the Prue ones, so I hope you'll stick with it at least through Season Four.  I think Season Three and Four are counted by most fans as their favorites, even if I liked Season One and Two better.  But with your reactions to One and Two, I have a hunch...

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Esmeralda said:

Keep in mind that a lot of the opinions you might have heard probably came from people who have seen the entire series so their opinions changed as they watched.  Mine sure did. Phoebs was always my favorite, too - UNTIL later on...it's because I love her so much in Early Charmed that I hate her so much in Latter Charmed.  We'll see if you end up feeling the same way.

I honestly did like Piper in Season One.  I understood her desire to be "normal" and she did seem shy in that season.  I started disliking her in Season Two with the way she used both Leo and Dan, and especially the way she treated Leo once she told him that he was the one.  Her being the universal favorite definitely isn't always the case with every fan.  I always thought that if she had to be with someone unnormal, why couldn't it be Mark?  "Dead Man Dating" is one of my favorite episodes, as is 'The Witch is Back" "Wicca Envy" and "That Seventies Episode" I'd love of know what you thought of those. In Season Two, it's "Morality Bites", "P3 H20", "Heartbreak City" and "Chick Flick"  Again, would love to know what you thought of them.

I get the feeling that you might be one of those fans that will like the Paige Seasons more than the Prue ones, so I hope you'll stick with it at least through Season Four.  I think Season Three and Four are counted by most fans as their favorites, even if I liked Season One and Two better.  But with your reactions to One and Two, I have a hunch...

I liked Phoebe until the later seasons when I hated her the most. I liked Piper especially in the beginning her constant whining about wanting a normal life got old really fast even more so after she married Leo. In the beginning I assumed that trait would go away as part of her embracing being a witch and a Charmed One.  Boy was I wrong. I liked her best with Mark. They had great chemistry and had things in common. Piper and Leo didn't have anything in common or Piper and Dan for that matter.   

[Writing Wrongs]

Shannen DUI article from back in the day

Quote

The arrest was not Doherty’s first brush with the law. In 1997, a Beverly Hills judge ordered her to attend anger-management counseling after she smashed a beer bottle on a car window during an argument.

[HunterHunted]

On 9/13/2017 at 0:34 AM, andromeda331 said:

I liked Phoebe until the later seasons when I hated her the most. I liked Piper especially in the beginning her constant whining about wanting a normal life got old really fast even more so after she married Leo. In the beginning I assumed that trait would go away as part of her embracing being a witch and a Charmed One.  Boy was I wrong. I liked her best with Mark. They had great chemistry and had things in common. Piper and Leo didn't have anything in common or Piper and Dan for that matter.   

I'm also one of those who liked Phoebe until I hated her. Piper's desire to be normal was understandable until she started putting lives in danger. I still find it funny that all of these years later fans regard Mark as one of Piper's top 3 love interests. John Cho. One episode. Fantastic chemistry. I think he's her second best, but regardless. He's very good with the material he had.

The thing about the show is that it was quintessentially Spelling--soapy, funny, compelling, dumb, and eminently rewatchable. Shows like Buffy might have been qualitatively better, but Charmed is rewatchable in a way that Buffy never will be. I say this as a person who owns all of the Buffy dvds and not a single episode of Charmed. The plotting of Charmed drives me a little crazy all of these years later, but the things that drive me bonkers are things like the costumes (I don't know how Eilish wasn't fired many times over especially after season 4), Magic School (they kept showing covens throughout the show*) or when the all of the actresses started using their baby talk voices. The baby talk voice epidemic was maddening. It started with Alyssa, but Holly caught it too and Shannon also picked it up.

*They kept showing covens. Ideally I would have loved it if the sisters had created their own coven. Magic School irritated me because it seemed to abandon the tradition of covens and writing family grimoires. Grams had at least two covens--in college and in the 60s. Phoebe was hanging with a Wiccan group and Wiccan coven in the early seasons. That gypsy doctor had her own. If Magic School existed, I wanted it to be developed by the sisters as a place to teach orphaned witches (meaning no immediate member of the family is a witch) like the firestarter kid, the technological witch kid that Prue saves, the psychic who was on trial when Phoebe was on the jury, and Billie and secretly evil Christy. I would have loved it if that had become a self directed part of the sisters' mission after their own crash course to magic. I would have rather have seen Magic School as a result of the sisters being the most powerful witches and to reinforce that the sisters weren't just powerful witches, but powerful leaders who galvanized and educated the magical community.

Edited September 20, 2017 by HunterHunted

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

I'm also one of those who liked Phoebe until I hated her. Piper's desire to be normal was understandable until she started putting lives in danger. I still find it funny that all of these years later fans regard Mark as one of Piper's top 3 love interests. John Cho. One episode. Fantastic chemistry. I think he's her second best, but regardless. He's very good with the material he had.

The thing about the show is that it was quintessentially Spelling--soapy, funny, compelling, dumb, and eminently rewatchable. Shows like Buffy might have been qualitatively better, but Charmed is rewatchable in a way that Buffy never will be. I say this as a person who owns all of the Buffy dvds and not a single episode of Charmed. The plotting of Charmed drives me a little crazy all of these years later, but the things that drive bonkers are things like the costumes (I don't know how Eilish wasn't fired many times over especially after season 4), Magic School (they kept showing covens throughout the show*) or when the all of the actresses started using their baby talk voices. The baby talk voice epidemic was maddening. It started with Alyssa, but Hollywood caught it too and Shannon also picked it up.

*They kept showing covens. Ideally I would have loved it if the sisters had created their own coven. Magic School irritated me because it seemed to abandon the tradition of covens and writing family grimoires. Grams had at least two covens--in college and in the 60s. Phoebe was hanging with a Wiccan group and Wiccan coven in the early seasons. That gypsy doctor had her own. If Magic School existed, I wanted it to be developed by the sisters as a place to teach orphaned witches (meaning no immediate member of the family is a witch) like the firestarter kid, the technological witch kid that Prue saves, the psychic who was on trial when Phoebe was on the jury, and Billing and secretly evil Christy. I would have loved it if that had become a self directed part of the sisters' mission after their own crash course to magic. I would have rather have seen Magic School as a result of the sisters being the most powerful witches and to reinforce that the sisters weren't just powerful witches, but powerful leaders who galvanized and educated the magical community.

So do I. Piper just had such awesome chemistry with John Cho. I don't know how Eilish wasn't fired either. I kept hoping they'd either create a coven or join a coven. Or they'd remain friends with some of the witches they met over the years. Eva (or Ava) was a perfect example of someone that they should have remained friends with. They had a lot in common, and she was a doctor who could deliver Piper's babies or be a doctor for the Charmed Ones. 

I agree about Magic School the annoying thing was how they acted like it had been there all along. Well, if it had been then why was never mentioned and why weren't they sending all of these witches too? Why did no one mention sending firestarter there or Max from season one? I know because it didn't exist then. It would have made more so much more sense for the Charmed Ones to create magic school after all their own experiences after meeting other witches who were orphaned or had no one to teach them about magic and for their own eventual kids. 

[AsYouWish]

Is it too late to retract nearly everything I wrote above? Because now that I'm done with Season 3, I am completely hooked on this show. I've grown to love all three sisters. Leo and Piper have worked their way into my heart. I think Cole gives the show a focus and sense of direction it had been lacking, so while I'm still not sure how I feel about him or whether I want him and Phoebe together, I love his additon to the series. Season 3 has been my favorite by far, which seems unpopular here! I'll miss Prue but am looking forward to Season 4. 

Quote

 eminently rewatchable. Shows like Buffy might have been qualitatively better, but Charmed is rewatchable in a way that Buffy never will be.

YES! I wish I could expand on this, but my addiction to this show has already made me late, so for now I'll just say that as a Buffy fan who's disappointed to find the show hasn't held up as well after so much time and with repeated rewatches as I had expected, I agree completely. 

[HunterHunted]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I kept hoping they'd either create a coven or join a coven. Or they'd remain friends with some of the witches they met over the years. Eva (or Ava) was a perfect example of someone that they should have remained friends with. They had a lot in common, and she was a doctor who could deliver Piper's babies or be a doctor for the Charmed Ones. 

I agree about Magic School the annoying thing was how they acted like it had been there all along. Well, if it had been then why was never mentioned and why weren't they sending all of these witches too? Why did no one mention sending firestarter there or Max from season one? I know because it didn't exist then. It would have made more so much more sense for the Charmed Ones to create magic school after all their own experiences after meeting other witches who were orphaned or had no one to teach them about magic and for their own eventual kids. 

Unfortunately, the show wasn't smart enough to figure out how to explain how Magic School could have existed and the sisters never having heard about it in the early seasons. Especially after Nicholas has Patty bless his ring so he can steal the girls' powers, I could see Patty creating a space where she could temporarily unbind the girls to allow the girls to practice their magic in a safe protected space. As Penny and Patty, fought evil maybe they found witches who had similar needs. Patty invited these witches to join them at Magic School. After Patty is killed, Magic School collapses because Patty was the one who was instrumental in keeping it running. This would explain how Magic School might have existed, but the sisters had never heard anything about it. It would have allowed them them to retcon Leo's failure to recommend Magic School  to those other witches.

I really wished the show had remembered Dr. Eva. They had such dumb wacky hijinks with the Wyatt pregnancy that a doctor who knew about magic really could have helped the sisters out.

[helenamonster]

Eva did show up again (played by a different actress) as Piper's birthing coach and to teach Phoebe and Paige how to be midwives, but I agree it would have been nice to keep her around as a recurring character.

I think that was one of this show's biggest problems, being able to blend their more episodic storytelling with the occasional larger story arcs and the mythology that they built over the seasons. There were a lot of characters that would have made sense returning on a once- or twice-a-season basis but for most of them it was out of sight, out of mind once their forty-two minute story had reached its conclusion.

[Apprentice79]

13 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

So do I. Piper just had such awesome chemistry with John Cho. I don't know how Eilish wasn't fired either. I kept hoping they'd either create a coven or join a coven. Or they'd remain friends with some of the witches they met over the years. Eva (or Ava) was a perfect example of someone that they should have remained friends with. They had a lot in common, and she was a doctor who could deliver Piper's babies or be a doctor for the Charmed Ones. 

I agree about Magic School the annoying thing was how they acted like it had been there all along. Well, if it had been then why was never mentioned and why weren't they sending all of these witches too? Why did no one mention sending firestarter there or Max from season one? I know because it didn't exist then. It would have made more so much more sense for the Charmed Ones to create magic school after all their own experiences after meeting other witches who were orphaned or had no one to teach them about magic and for their own eventual kids. 

I hated Magic school. One of the things that I loved about the first 3 seasons was that the sisters were in the real world confronting both natural and supernatural problems and how they intersect. It is why I loved the Quake and Prue's job in that auction house.   That aspect was lost as soon as Kern took over.

I wished that Piper was never connected to Leo.   His story was done in season 1.  Piper's quest for true love could have been explored as she balances her duties as a charmed one and her career could have given her more depth. She became a shrew being with Leo.  

[Esmeralda]

15 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Eva did show up again (played by a different actress) as Piper's birthing coach and to teach Phoebe and Paige how to be midwives, but I agree it would have been nice to keep her around as a recurring character.

I think that was one of this show's biggest problems, being able to blend their more episodic storytelling with the occasional larger story arcs and the mythology that they built over the seasons. There were a lot of characters that would have made sense returning on a once- or twice-a-season basis but for most of them it was out of sight, out of mind once their forty-two minute story had reached its conclusion.

The gypsy doctor's name was Ava - Ava Nicolae - not Eva.  They're nowhere near the same character except for being blonde. and helping the Charmed Ones   I don't know why so many fans mix up those two, but they do.

 But otherwise I agree totally.

[Kohola3]

Dr. Ava

 

[helenamonster]

9 hours ago, Esmeralda said:

The gypsy doctor's name was Ava - Ava Nicolae - not Eva.  They're nowhere near the same character except for being blonde. and helping the Charmed Ones   I don't know why so many fans mix up those two, but they do.

 But otherwise I agree totally.

That's who I meant, the gypsy doctor, just couldn't remember if the spelling was with an E or an A.

So I did look it up because it was bothering me, and the woman who played Piper's birthing coach in "Centennial Charmed" was named Eve and played by Deanna Russo (Ava was played by Emmanuelle Vaugier, both were brunettes). But I'm having trouble figuring out if it was supposed to be Ava and the show couldn't remember its own storyline from six episodes ago (entirely possible!) or if she was supposed to be a different character altogether. Because at the end of "The Eyes Have It," Phoebe and Paige tell Piper that Ava is going to be her doctor teach them how to be midwives for a magical, non-hospital birth. So then in "Centennial Charmed" this other woman with a very similar name shows up as Piper's birthing coach, for a home birth not a hospital birth, and when Paige sneeze-orbs in front of her, Piper and Phoebe freak out because she could have seen. But if they're supposed to be the same person, then Ava/Eve shouldn't care because she's seen magic. The dialogue is:

Piper: Do you not realize that you just sneezed and orbed at the same time?

Phoebe: Ooh, it's a good thing Eve didn't see that.

Paige: Well, we saved her gypsy clan. I think she'd be fine with it.

Phoebe: Yeah, well, it's one thing to know, and it's another thing to actually see it.

Okay so...is Eve another member of Ava's gypsy clan that subbed in to help with Piper's birth? Are they the same person and the show forgot the name and that Ava/Eve has already seen magic and should be totes cool with it? God I hate this show sometimes!

Edited September 21, 2017 by helenamonster

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, helenamonster said:

God I hate this show sometimes!

The continuity errors were ridiculous.  Along with a lot of the costuming.  Apparently witches also dress like sluts most of the time.  The one outfit that always sticks in my mind was when Pheobe wore some horrible strapless top with leg warmers on her arms.

[AsYouWish]

I'm grateful for you all pointing out that the show contradicts itself a lot and ignores its own canon, because I'm increasingly confused about exactly what the whitelighters and elders can/can't do and are/aren't supposed to be, what the whole personal gain thing actually means in reality, and the powers that other witches do and don't have on the show.  And why don't the sisters ever work with other witches to help defeat evil instead of just sometimes stumbling across another witch and then apparently never having any contact with them again? I'd prefer to blame the writing for my inability to consistently wrap my mind around those aspects of the show than face the possibility that I'm too dumb to understand a fairly simple show :)  

Edited September 21, 2017 by AsYouWish

[Kohola3]

By all means, blame the writers.  It's not you at all.  The inconsistencies are just overwhelming which is why I get frustrated watching most of the time.  The whole "I can't heal the dead" statement from Leo just flies out the window whenever it's convenient which always leaves me yelling at the TV.

[Esmeralda]

And that's the biggest problem once Brad Kern takes over in Season Three. Despite the episodic format, it's almost best to count each episode as a separate show because Kern twisted canon to fit his episode rather than twisting his episodes to fit established canon.

The "I can't heal the dead" was either Kern doing that or the Elders not letting him do that when he healed Piper during 'Awakened' when she was dying thanks to an error on her part rather than magic.  It's why I hate that episode - Piper *so* should've stayed dead and *that's* when Prue and Phoebe should've found out about Paige...

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, helenamonster said:

That's who I meant, the gypsy doctor, just couldn't remember if the spelling was with an E or an A.

So I did look it up because it was bothering me, and the woman who played Piper's birthing coach in "Centennial Charmed" was named Eve and played by Deanna Russo (Ava was played by Emmanuelle Vaugier, both were brunettes). But I'm having trouble figuring out if it was supposed to be Ava and the show couldn't remember its own storyline from six episodes ago (entirely possible!) or if she was supposed to be a different character altogether. Because at the end of "The Eyes Have It," Phoebe and Paige tell Piper that Ava is going to be her doctor teach them how to be midwives for a magical, non-hospital birth. So then in "Centennial Charmed" this other woman with a very similar name shows up as Piper's birthing coach, for a home birth not a hospital birth, and when Paige sneeze-orbs in front of her, Piper and Phoebe freak out because she could have seen. But if they're supposed to be the same person, then Ava/Eve shouldn't care because she's seen magic. The dialogue is:

Piper: Do you not realize that you just sneezed and orbed at the same time?

Phoebe: Ooh, it's a good thing Eve didn't see that.

Paige: Well, we saved her gypsy clan. I think she'd be fine with it.

Phoebe: Yeah, well, it's one thing to know, and it's another thing to actually see it.

Okay so...is Eve another member of Ava's gypsy clan that subbed in to help with Piper's birth? Are they the same person and the show forgot the name and that Ava/Eve has already seen magic and should be totes cool with it? God I hate this show sometimes!

I always thought it was suppose to be the same character even though it was a different actress, name and for some reason didn't know they had powers for the same reasons.  It didn't make sense so soon after Ava that there's a new doctor named Eve who's going to be Piper's birthing coach six episodes after Dr. Ava became Piper's doctor and was going to teach the sisters how to be midwives. Someone we'd never seen before after being so worried about having a normal doctor delivering the magical baby.

[Apprentice79]

12 hours ago, Esmeralda said:

And that's the biggest problem once Brad Kern takes over in Season Three. Despite the episodic format, it's almost best to count each episode as a separate show because Kern twisted canon to fit his episode rather than twisting his episodes to fit established canon.

The "I can't heal the dead" was either Kern doing that or the Elders not letting him do that when he healed Piper during 'Awakened' when she was dying thanks to an error on her part rather than magic.  It's why I hate that episode - Piper *so* should've stayed dead and *that's* when Prue and Phoebe should've found out about Paige...

I disagree. I think that the Charmed ones being who they were should have been able to heal themselves without violating that stupid personal gain rule. Phoebe should have been the healer in the power of 3. Plus, the book of shadows gives them access to unbelievable power.  The elders and whitelighters should never have played prominent roles in the sisters' lives.  I blame this on the presence of Leo on the show. Had Leo remained off the show, this would not have happened.  

[Esmeralda]

21 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

I disagree. I think that the Charmed ones being who they were should have been able to heal themselves without violating that stupid personal gain rule. Phoebe should have been the healer in the power of 3. Plus, the book of shadows gives them access to unbelievable power.  The elders and whitelighters should never have played prominent roles in the sisters' lives.  I blame this on the presence of Leo on the show. Had Leo remained off the show, this would not have happened.  

That would've been nice, but it would've taken away all drama.  Death meant so little to Charmed when Leo could heal them, even if they were dead.  Them being able to heal themselves would mean no matter what danger they were in, you didn't have to worry about it because they'd be able to heal themselves, even if they were killed. *yawn*

But I agree regarding personal gain.  I wish that was only true for the first year they were witches, when they were still learning, and then if they were able to follow the Wiccan Reid - "Harm none, do what ye will."  So often they'd do something that wouldn't harm and yet it would still count as personal gain, and that made no sense.  It's part of what took away the fun of being a witch, and it was a shame that they weren't allowed that.  Of course, they also often did things that *did* harm (Chris murdering the Valkyrie; Phoebe and Paige stealing Darryl's soul without his permission;  Phoebe and Paige setting up Rick to be murdered; the Charmed Ones planning - which is what made it murder and not self-defense - and executing the first-degree murder of the Jenkinses, etc.) with no personal gain backlash and that made even less sense than them not doing something that harmed and getting a backlash.  At that point they should've either lost their powers or become warlocks.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Esmeralda

[Apprentice79]

3 hours ago, Esmeralda said:

That would've been nice, but it would've taken away all drama.  Death meant so little to Charmed when Leo could heal them, even if they were dead.  Them being able to heal themselves would mean no matter what danger they were in, you didn't have to worry about it because they'd be able to heal themselves, even if they were killed. *yawn*

But I agree regarding personal gain.  I wish that was only true for the first year they were witches, when they were still learning, and then if they were able to follow the Wiccan Reid - "Harm none, do what ye will."  So often they'd do something that wouldn't harm and yet it would still count as personal gain, and that made no sense.  It's part of what took away the fun of being a witch, and it was a shame that they weren't allowed that.  Of course, they also often did things that *did* harm (Chris murdering the Valkyrie; Phoebe and Paige stealing Darryl's soul without his permission;  Phoebe and Paige setting up Rick to be murdered; the Charmed Ones planning - which is what made it murder and not self-defense - and executing the first-degree murder of the Jenkinses, etc.) with no personal gain backlash and that made even less sense than them not doing something that harmed and getting a backlash.  At that point they should've either lost their powers or become warlocks.

I see what you mean about the healing factor, but, a skilled writer could get around that.  By that logic, Phoebe's premonitions at their advanced level would mean that  Phoebe could never be hurt, because she would always know that danger was coming.  The same goes for Prue and Piper with their advanced telekinesis and advanced freezing.  Phoebe as an empath should be able to heal physical and emotional wounds. That does not mean that Phoebe can heal cancers, other illnesses or heal the dead.   I too hated that death never scared the sisters.  However, being the most powerful witches of all time gave them access to unbelievable power, individually and collectively.

The personal gain rule should have applied to Phoebe after turning evil.   I see nothing wrong if Phoebe carries an umbrella with her, after she gets a premonition that it will rain today. Piper freezing the rain, to not wet her hair would not be earth shattering. Prue using her power to get herself a bowl of cereal would not be a crime.  I understand the reasoning behind the personal gain rule, it would keep the sisters honest, but, I think the execution of it was bad.

[Esmeralda]

15 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

I see what you mean about the healing factor, but, a skilled writer could get around that.  By that logic, Phoebe's premonitions at their advanced level would mean that  Phoebe could never be hurt, because she would always know that danger was coming.  The same goes for Prue and Piper with their advanced telekinesis and advanced freezing.  Phoebe as an empath should be able to heal physical and emotional wounds. That does not mean that Phoebe can heal cancers, other illnesses or heal the dead.   I too hated that death never scared the sisters.  However, being the most powerful witches of all time gave them access to unbelievable power, individually and collectively.

The personal gain rule should have applied to Phoebe after turning evil.   I see nothing wrong if Phoebe carries an umbrella with her, after she gets a premonition that it will rain today. Piper freezing the rain, to not wet her hair would not be earth shattering. Prue using her power to get herself a bowl of cereal would not be a crime.  I understand the reasoning behind the personal gain rule, it would keep the sisters honest, but, I think the execution of it was bad.

The only time Phoebe had a premonition of herself being hurt was when she was burnt, so obviously she wasn't given any that would show herself being hurt unless it was to teach a lesson, so that's not true.  An empath can't heal  - she can only feel the other's pain.  So none of that is logical. 

Yes, it gave them unbelievable power but none of them, especially Leo, should've been made into God with the power of life and death.  Being able to heal the dead - no, very simply NO!

Edited September 23, 2017 by Esmeralda

[Apprentice79]

24 minutes ago, Esmeralda said:

The only time Phoebe had a premonition of herself being hurt was when she was burnt, so obviously she wasn't given any that would show herself being hurt unless it was to teach a lesson, so that's not true.  An empath can't heal  - she can only feel the other's pain.  So none of that is logical. 

Yes, it gave them unbelievable power but none of them, especially Leo, should've been made into God with the power of life and death.  Being able to heal the dead - no, very simply NO!

The show never did anything with the sisters' original powers.   We saw in morality bites, how powerful the three sisters would have been.  An empath cannot heal, but, an empath that is charmed like Phoebe can..  Remember, there are other people who had had the sisters powers, but, it would be different with them.. The  powers that they each got from Melinda Warren would have manifested in them in ways that the world had never seen before. Piper's freezing power would be more potent and versatile than Patty's.  Plus, they were supposed to get two more powers each, that would be just as important in their trajectory.  

Edited September 23, 2017 by Apprentice79

[Esmeralda]

If that's how it is in your head canon that's great.  I'm glad it wasn't that way on the show - the last four seasons would've been even more boring than they already were.

[Apprentice79]

2 minutes ago, Esmeralda said:

If that's how it is in your head canon that's great.  I'm glad it wasn't that way on the show - the last four seasons would've been even more boring than they already were.

What do you mean? I was just expressing an opinion..

Edited September 23, 2017 by Apprentice79

[Esmeralda]

Just now, Apprentice79 said:

What do you mean?

What do you mean what do you mean?

[Apprentice79]

Just now, Esmeralda said:

What do you mean what do you mean?

I was just saying that the show could have been better.. I think that the fans could have written a better show.

[Esmeralda]

Oh, definitely agree with that.  My favorite fanfics have proven that.

But not by turning the sisters into gods who can never be killed, and especially not turning Phoebe's empath power into healing powers.  Leave healing to the whitelighters (and whitelighters only - not the half ones who haven't earned their wings).  Now if you do it like some scifi stories do where empaths heal by taking on the other's pain so that in order to heal someone who's dead, they'd have to die themselves and stay dead - now I could agree with that. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Esmeralda

[Apprentice79]

2 minutes ago, Esmeralda said:

Oh, definitely agree with that.  My favorite fanfics have proven that.

But not by turning the sisters into gods who can never be killed, and especially not turning Phoebe's empath power into healing powers.  Leave healing to the whitelighters (and whitelighters only - not the half ones who haven't earned their wings).  Now if youi do it like some scifi stories do where empaths heal by taking on the other's pain so that in order to heal someone who's dead, they'd have to die themselves and stay dead - now I could agree with that.

If you were writing the show, how would  you make the sisters very powerful, but, very human at the same time..

Edited September 23, 2017 by Apprentice79

[Esmeralda]

40 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

If you were writing the show, how would  you make the sisters very powerful, but, very human at the same time..

By letting them have their original powers only and let the powers slowly but surely grow into them having more control over them, like Phoebe being able to get premonitions by touching an item, and Prue and Piper being able to use theirs over longer distances.   Along with the Book for spells and potions, they never needed anything else.

We'd never see the Elders or the Source and no living being would be able to go Down Below or Up There without suffocating from lack of air.

 Leo would only be able to orb someone by hugging them, and that person would be dizzy when they first arrive.

Their children wouldn't have any powers except a shield like Wyatt's, but just be witches. no matter who their father was.  Whitelighters, who are dead, could not sire children.

Each Demon would be "The Demon of..."  like each Angel is "The Angel of" with only one of each kind., who can't be vanquished, just banished to Down Below or Up There. Anyone else who was a demon on the show would be a warlock on mine.  Warlocks like Brendan and Cole could become witches by using their powers for good and witches (Charmed Ones included) would become warlocks when they used their powers for evil., so Phoebe in 'Morality Bites' is a warlock, as is P. Russell in 'Pardon My Past'.   Using their powers to help family members or friends would not count as using their powers for good.

If a Charmed One dies, the other two have to continue without the Power of Three, which only three full sisters descended from Melinda Warren can access.

Anyone who dies stays dead - NO EXCEPTIONS!  Once warlocks are vanquished, they stay vanquished and do not return - NO EXCEPTIONS!

And no one besides whitelighters would ever have any whitelighter powers, especially orbing and healing.

Those would do it for me nicely - but those are just my own head canon.  Each fan will always have her own.

Gotta scoot.  Been fun debating with you!

Edited September 23, 2017 by Esmeralda

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

I see what you mean about the healing factor, but, a skilled writer could get around that.  By that logic, Phoebe's premonitions at their advanced level would mean that  Phoebe could never be hurt, because she would always know that danger was coming.  The same goes for Prue and Piper with their advanced telekinesis and advanced freezing.  Phoebe as an empath should be able to heal physical and emotional wounds. That does not mean that Phoebe can heal cancers, other illnesses or heal the dead.   I too hated that death never scared the sisters.  However, being the most powerful witches of all time gave them access to unbelievable power, individually and collectively.

The personal gain rule should have applied to Phoebe after turning evil.   I see nothing wrong if Phoebe carries an umbrella with her, after she gets a premonition that it will rain today. Piper freezing the rain, to not wet her hair would not be earth shattering. Prue using her power to get herself a bowl of cereal would not be a crime.  I understand the reasoning behind the personal gain rule, it would keep the sisters honest, but, I think the execution of it was bad.

Or Paige using it to fix her shirt damaged in a demon attack. Even though they could apparently use it to fix their windows. There should have been a personal gain rule yes like not being able to win the lotto, turning evil and other things. But simple things like a bowl of cereal, a shirt, and other things I don't see why those would be crimes.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Esmeralda said:

That would've been nice, but it would've taken away all drama.  Death meant so little to Charmed when Leo could heal them, even if they were dead.  Them being able to heal themselves would mean no matter what danger they were in, you didn't have to worry about it because they'd be able to heal themselves, even if they were killed. *yawn*

But I agree regarding personal gain.  I wish that was only true for the first year they were witches, when they were still learning, and then if they were able to follow the Wiccan Reid - "Harm none, do what ye will."  So often they'd do something that wouldn't harm and yet it would still count as personal gain, and that made no sense.  It's part of what took away the fun of being a witch, and it was a shame that they weren't allowed that.  Of course, they also often did things that *did* harm (Chris murdering the Valkyrie; Phoebe and Paige stealing Darryl's soul without his permission;  Phoebe and Paige setting up Rick to be murdered; the Charmed Ones planning - which is what made it murder and not self-defense - and executing the first-degree murder of the Jenkinses, etc.) with no personal gain backlash and that made even less sense than them not doing something that harmed and getting a backlash.  At that point they should've either lost their powers or become warlocks.

Yes, exactly that's what was so insane about the personal gain rule small things they'd get in trouble for. But big things like murdering a Valkyrie, stealing Darryl's soul, or Phoebe and Paige setting up Rick to be murdered they didn't. They really should have gotten in trouble for those things. Apparently throwing poop on a someone could cause them to break all the rules and lead them down the road to murder. But actual murders don't. 

[Esmeralda]

On 9/20/2017 at 9:10 AM, AsYouWish said:

Is it too late to retract nearly everything I wrote above? Because now that I'm done with Season 3, I am completely hooked on this show. I've grown to love all three sisters. Leo and Piper have worked their way into my heart. I think Cole gives the show a focus and sense of direction it had been lacking, so while I'm still not sure how I feel about him or whether I want him and Phoebe together, I love his additon to the series. Season 3 has been my favorite by far, which seems unpopular here! I'll miss Prue but am looking forward to Season 4. 

YES! I wish I could expand on this, but my addiction to this show has already made me late, so for now I'll just say that as a Buffy fan who's disappointed to find the show hasn't held up as well after so much time and with repeated rewatches as I had expected, I agree completely. 

Yup, I had a hunch that Season Three and Four would end up being your favorites and looks like I'm right.  I don't agree with you, but I do think those two tend to be the favorites of most fans.  I'll be curious to see what you think of Season Four, and if you decide to continue past that, what you'll think of Season Five.

Keep us advised, okay? It's always fun to be able to see the show through fresh eyes.

[HunterHunted]

On 9/21/2017 at 4:16 PM, Kohola3 said:

By all means, blame the writers.  It's not you at all.  The inconsistencies are just overwhelming which is why I get frustrated watching most of the time. 

 

On 9/21/2017 at 7:33 PM, Esmeralda said:

And that's the biggest problem once Brad Kern takes over in Season Three. Despite the episodic format, it's almost best to count each episode as a separate show because Kern twisted canon to fit his episode rather than twisting his episodes to fit established canon.

I don't know if the problem was truly Brad Kern. He's been a half decent showrunner on other shows. By the time he took over officially, they'd already messed up the show canon significantly. Kern definitely struggled with balancing season long serialized stories with episodic stories. However, I think the biggest impediment was always Aaron Spelling. He never liked dark. He didn't like brooding or nihilism. His tastes were very commercial. I don't think Spelling ever understood or appreciated the type of planning that a genre show takes to pull off. I can see him not getting the importance of having Emmanuelle Vaugier be in 6 episodes just so that Piper has a person who is familiar with magic to deliver Wyatt. I can see how Kern might have given up and not fought Spelling on an increased budget for a role that would end up as a glorified cameo after the first episode that featured the Dr. Ava character.

[blueray]

I never noticed that they changed Ava's name, I always assumed she was the same character from The Eyes have it. Wow that's something that I've missed that, I could have sworn she was in another episode. That's weird, or was she supposed to be the same character? Reading above, I don't remember the context but maybe they were just worried about what happened and forgot what she knew about it or not.

Edited October 2, 2017 by blueray

[HunterHunted]

Emmanuelle Vaugier was only in one episode of Charmed. She had 5 or 6 other roles that she was filming that year, including a multiple episode arc on Smallville where she also played a doctor who would marry Lex Luthor.

[imakicola]

I hated Phoebe in season 6.  

In seasons 1-2, she was the spunky young one. In season 3-5, she was the one always in romantic drama.  In seasons 7 & 8, she was dramatic again with some frustration.

BUT SEASON 6???

Yes, she had her drama. But she was constantly ridiculously ***PERKY***, which was never really her thing except for season 6 and only season 6. 

[NChick]

I am re-watching this show for the 3rd time.  I'm on season 6.  Here are my somewhat unpopular opinions

 

I hate Leo.  I hate that he abandoned his family to be an elder.  I hate how they all treated it like he did nothing wrong.  I hate when Chris was so mad at him and Leo said he didn't understand why.  He was a deadbeat dad.  He was a jerk who put being an elder before his wife and family.  He became an elder, left Piper with their infant son to be raised by Piper alone and then the next season hangs around the entire time like nothing happened.  I wish Piper would have told him off.  I was glad she told him to leave because him being there was hard on her, but I wish she'd been meaner to him.  He was such an ass and I couldn't take it.  Piper should have made him feel like crap for leaving them and not allowed him access to her and Wyatt.  If he's going to leave, then leave, don't hang around when you said you couldn't before.  Just HATE Leo for all of this. 

 

Phoebe....god Phoebe is awful.  Her selfishness kills me.  It's always about her.  No one else matters.  When she became an empath, those first episodes following that were unwatchable.  Her anger towards anyone who god forbid had feelings drove me nuts.  Basically Charmed became the Phoebe show after Prue's death.  And her clothes were ridiculous.  She looked like a hooker half the time.  Hated how she treated Cole, never once gave him a chance to explain about how he became the source, for it was all about what he did to her.  Never about what she did to him.   Her baby voice, her constant search for a man, her stupid career that she acted like she was curing freaking cancer.  Everything about her annoyed me to no end.  I also HATED how she treated Paige.  Dismissing her opinions left and right, treated her like she was stupid, just because they've been doing it for 3 years, that was nothing! In Womb raider attacking her and blaming the baby (again in her stupid baby voice).  Paige became a much more powerful and smarter witch than Phoebe within a year.   Almost every episode from season 4 on is all about Phoebe.  Even when something is happening to another character, it's still all about Phoebe and how it's affecting her.

 

Piper - loved her but HATED her constant bitching.  STFU!  You're a witch, accept and move on!  When I really wanted her to bitch, like when Leo left, she didn't do anything.  Since I'm watching episodes back to back, I've noticed there is not a single episode where she doesn't snip, snark or roll her eyes at something.  She is constantly annoyed about life.  I wish someone would tell her to lighten the F up.

 

Paige = I just hated RM acting.  The bobble head move every single episode, the overacting, the pout.  Ugh.  Annoying.  But the  character of Paige I liked.  I wish they would have given her more credit.  She was the most powerful witch.  I think more so than Piper. 

[NChick]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 10:32 AM, Apprentice79 said:

I always felt that Phoebe should have been a social worker eventually becoming a psychologist. Out of all the sisters in the original power of three, she was the most empathetic and the one who always wanted to help innocents. It would have been a good way to incorporate her growing powers to her work organically.  Melinda Warren said that her powers were meant to heal.  The same thing applies to Prue and Piper. Both should have remained in their season 1 professions and grow from there.

I liked Paige, but, I always wanted the show to continue with Prue. The original dynamic was so awesome. I also wished that the sisters' powers would have grown the way that Constance Burge envisioned for the series.  I thought Prue's powers grew naturally and fit her. Whereas, Piper and Phoebe's were out of whack.  So much could have been done with their first powers. Freezing time and premonitions could have grown to a tremendous level and the writers never did anything with them.  Piper should have been able to rewind, show down and  fast forward time at will.  At her most powerful, she should be able to project herself and others in time.  Phoebe should have been able to get premonitions on command .   I liked how in the power of 2 in season 1, she  was starting to do that.  Their second powers were awful and random. 

Wow, totally agree with the progression of powers.  Phoebe never was able to control her power of premonition.  It was  useless.  She should have been able to get them on demand and get more details from them.  Levitating and empathy seemed so off for her. 

I love your take on Piper's power.  That would have made sense and been very cool. 

[theotherhalliwell]

Quote

Piper - loved her but HATED her constant bitching.  STFU!  You're a witch, accept and move on!  When I really wanted her to bitch, like when Leo left, she didn't do anything.  Since I'm watching episodes back to back, I've noticed there is not a single episode where she doesn't snip, snark or roll her eyes at something.  She is constantly annoyed about life.  I wish someone would tell her to lighten the F up.

THIS! It's making the series painful for me to rewatch. And based on the type of characters I normally love, I should love Piper. I WANT to love Piper. But she's such a nasty, bitter, self-pitying whiner and a thoroughly unpleasant person. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by theotherhalliwell

[theotherhalliwell]

And it's not just that she spends every episode of eight seasons of a show that's about being a witch bitching and whining about how much she hates being a witch. She hates EVERYTHING. She is always finding fault with and sniping at Leo, her sisters, her job, everything that is and isn't done around the house. It may make her relatable for some, and I usually appreciate some good snark, but just watching her makes me want to icrease my antidepressant dosage. We're supposed to think she's the kind and nurturing one, but she actually never has any shred of patience for anyone's issues except her own. I agree with the people who said that Holly Marie Combs delivers her lines with more bitterness than the script sometimes calls for and has a permanent case of lemon-sucking "bitchface." It doesn't just start in later seasons, either - she's always this way, even though I'll agree it probably got worse later on. 

There's one small scene in Season 7 that sums her up for me. In a desperate attempt to make his wife happy or at least to stop yelling and complaining for five seconds (good luck with THAT one), Leo cleans up the whole attic for her. We all know how much Piper hates messes, so this thoughtful gesture should be well received, correct? He excitedly takes her up there and reveals the surprise. And she, predictably, reacts with displeasure and annoyance. HUH?! Hapless Leo plaintively sputters something about how she's always complaining about the attic being a mess, so he thought she'd be happy that he tired to organize it and clean it up. Nope! She didn't like it messy, but it turns out she doesn't like it clean either. She doesn't appreciate when Leo tries to help but gets annoyed when he doesn't. He and both of her sisters frustrate the heck out of her 24/7 no matter what they do or don't do.  She's refuses to be even minimally satisfied with any facet of life, and remains strangely determined to act angry, discontent and bitterly miserable no matter what anyone does. On Tumblr, I keep reading about how Prue was uptight, critical, joyless and angry. Some of that might be true, but in my view it's so much more true of Piper than it is of Prue. Prue was much more likable and easier for me to respect and admire than Piper. I know that's a very unpopular opinion, but that's why the forum Gods gave us this thread :)

Edited October 30, 2017 by theotherhalliwell

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, NChick said:

Phoebe....god Phoebe is awful.  Her selfishness kills me.  It's always about her.  No one else matters.  When she became an empath, those first episodes following that were unwatchable.  Her anger towards anyone who god forbid had feelings drove me nuts.  Basically Charmed became the Phoebe show after Prue's death.  And her clothes were ridiculous.  She looked like a hooker half the time.  Hated how she treated Cole, never once gave him a chance to explain about how he became the source, for it was all about what he did to her.  Never about what she did to him.   Her baby voice, her constant search for a man, her stupid career that she acted like she was curing freaking cancer.  Everything about her annoyed me to no end.  I also HATED how she treated Paige.  Dismissing her opinions left and right, treated her like she was stupid, just because they've been doing it for 3 years, that was nothing! In Womb raider attacking her and blaming the baby (again in her stupid baby voice).  Paige became a much more powerful and smarter witch than Phoebe within a year.   Almost every episode from season 4 on is all about Phoebe.  Even when something is happening to another character, it's still all about Phoebe and how it's affecting her.

I hate Phoebe the most. You summed up so well. But the one I hate the most is still her getting away with her part in the underworld crap and blaming it all on Cole. She was the one who stopped Cole from giving up his powers. But that little detail is never brought up again. Nor willingly joining Cole in the Underground. But when she decides she doesn't want to anymore she can quit and vanquish Cole. Put all the blame on him. He only became the Source by accident by saving Phoebe's life and her sisters when they were losing. Another detail never brought up. He didn't want them. He tried to get rid of them Phoebe stopped him. No one tried to save him or help him. Maybe there was another way to get rid of the powers? Separate him from them? Phoebe just immediately decide he needed to vanquished. Another small detail not ever really mentioned was Paige asking Phoebe if she knew about the sacrifices as part of the coronation. Phoebe never answers. 

[theotherhalliwell]

I’m starting to wish most of the series had consisted of Prue and Paige uniting as the Power of Two! 

[nightwing877]

Getting rid of Quake and Social Services was a bad move on Charmed. I think those two locations were the most interesting. Yet we got stuck with P3 and the Bay Mirror. err

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, nightwing877 said:

Getting rid of Quake and Social Services was a bad move on Charmed. I think those two locations were the most interesting. Yet we got stuck with P3 and the Bay Mirror. err

So do I. They were interesting and had potential for stories and innocents. Also, there's no way Piper would ever want to open a club.  

[nightwing877]

18 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

So do I. They were interesting and had potential for stories and innocents. Also, there's no way Piper would ever want to open a club.  

I know right. I don't know why Piper would want a club, didn't feel like her at all. I was hoping she would buy quake and remodel. The Quake setting fitted Charmed better, I miss all the chats the sisters had at the conclusion of each episode in many S1 episodes. P3 didn't have any stories apart from having a musical guest each episode, and having the sisters dress up and dance. 

I would feel the opposite, P3 being the setting when they are younger and Quake when they start growing up and getting older. LOL It felt like P3 would of suited them more when they were young and single. Not that women in their late 20s can't go clubbing.

But I just felt Quake had a more mature feel, compared to P3. P3 targeted more the age group of teens, might be why they ditched Quake and WB wanted more musical guests, dancing, skimpy clothes etc. Especially since Prue started dressing differently as did all the sisters later on. 

 

Social Services should of been Paige's full time job in the entire series with innocents and potential stories coming from it. I liked Paige the most in season 4, when she worked here. Hated her afterwards, when it was all about magic, magic school and being a whitelighter. 

[HunterHunted]

On 11/1/2017 at 8:59 PM, nightwing877 said:

Social Services should of been Paige's full time job in the entire series with innocents and potential stories coming from it. I liked Paige the most in season 4, when she worked here. Hated her afterwards, when it was all about magic, magic school and being a whitelighter. 

Then they put Paige in her terrible temp jobs. It's like the writers had no understanding of the situations when a person might need a social worker and thought Paige might be introduced to a wider range of people if she had these temp jobs. However, people are referred to social workers when:

• they have been involved in crimes as victims,
• they are transitioning from jail or prison,
• they have a mental illness,
• they or a family has been through a death, illness, or traumatic experience,
• they are transitioning from the military,
• they need public benefits, and
• they sometimes need job training.

Except for her wackiest temp jobs, nearly all of her stories could have found an easy way to have a social worker be involved in those same situations.