Unpopular Opinions

[Blandings]

I love that there a lot of fans of Gilmore Girls over here. I'm trying to think of what the shows have in common. So far I've come up with how they're among the few female-centered TV shows, aired on the same network, combine humor and drama, center around family relationships and star actresses with the world's most beautiful brown hair. Some of the characters, such as Piper from Charmed and Luke from Gilmore Girls, have very similar personality types. 

I still watch TNT reruns of Charmed all the time and have a few opinions about the show that may qualify as unpopular. 

Prue/Piper/Phoebe felt much more authentically like sisters than Piper/Phoebe/Paige did and I thought the show worked a lot better with the first sister trio than the second one. The insertion of Paige was an interesting idea, but the execution was poor. To echo a few other people, it felt like the writers never got a handle on who she was or how she fit into the family dynamics, so they kept changing her personality and viewpoints every episode and changed Phoebe and Piper into less likable people to fit stereotypes the writers held about what oldest, middle and youngest children are supposed to act like. The one consistent attribute Paige had was that she cared about saving innocents, but the result was making Phoebe suddenly care a lot less about saving innocents, as if only one Halliwell was allowed to be an eager and helpful witch at a time. Phoebe's stories became a lot less about her being a witch and more about a woman obsessed with her own love life. When I watch the earlier seasons, I miss the original conception of the character. It also seemed like Piper became more of a no nonsense, impatient and snarky boss like Prue since that's what oldest Halliwell siblings supposedly do, but it was an uneasy fit and made Piper less happy and harder to like. 

This is unpopular here, but I love Leo/Piper. I think they're the only romance on Charmed that I cared about. 

The second season is my favorite. I don't even mind the love triangle with Piper, Leo and the neighbor. The girls really hit their stride as witches and sisters this season and it has more of my favorite episodes than any other season. I also have a lot less love for the Cole seasons than I used to. 

I've read critiques of Piper and understand where people are coming from in thinking she became too bitter, but I see that as protective. She's scared to allow herself to be happy or hopeful because of all the heartbreak they've endured. I think she even says as much in one episode. She is still deeply loving and generous and cares more about other people's happiness than her own. Piper is my favorite sister and one of my favorite characters in general. As someone else noted, she has so many layers and a lot of emotion bubbling beneath the surface. She's one of the rare female characters who's sensitive, introverted and into more traditionally female pursuits like cooking, homemaking, and romantic comedies but also becomes a strong, protective, bad-ass heroine. Whoever proposed somewhere that she battles anxiety and depression is my new hero(ine). I always had the same theory!  

Leo should have been a teacher at either the magic school or a regular school through most of the series. It's the perfect job for his personality and would have given him some story material outside of just relaying information to the Halliwells. 

I wish Prue had become a police detective alongside Darryl instead of a photographer. 

[Kohola3]

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This is unpopular here, but I love Leo/Piper. I think they're the only romance on Charmed that I cared about. 

Please join me at my table!  I know Leo is considered bland but I always thought they came across as a loving and caring couple and were both great with the kids.  

[Blandings]

Please join me at my table!  

With pleasure, especially because you're also a fan of Gilmore Girls. We can discuss the similarities between Piper and Luke, or at least I can tell you what I think they are and you can politely nod. 

I know Leo is considered bland but I always thought they came across as a loving and caring couple and were both great with the kids.  

Leo being such a nice guy makes him a unique find on TV; sweet TV guys are an endangered species. I thought his calm cheerfulness was the perfect complement to Piper's anxiety, and Leo being an angel gave him a very interesting past and a different perspective on being human. But he could be didactic and sanctimonious, not a perfect angel without flaws. So to me he was interesting, but I understand why some would disagree. I thought their relationship was one of the most nuanced and realistic on TV. I believed in their love a lot more than Phoebe and Cole's, which felt like destructive infatuation and creepy obsession sometimes. I wish Leo hadn't had to become an elder just to give them another obstacle, but other than that I don't have too many complaints.

I read somewhere a long time ago that the show considered a spin-off featuring Piper, Leo, Chris and Wyatt as a witchy family in a mostly mortal world. I think I would have liked that show a lot more than the last two seasons of Charmed. I wouldn't have even missed Paige and Phoebe much by then if they were in cameo roles. I loved Phoebe the first two seasons, but not as much after that. 

[Kohola3]

Well, I am a sucker for a man in uniform, especially a medic, so Leo got points for that right off the bat.  But I agree he wasn't perfect and there were times I wish he had told the Elders to STFU but overall I thought he was a great whitelighter.  All of the jerking around they did with him the last season didn't help the story.  I can't believe they put him on hiatus just to bring in the Shiny/Pouty-Lipped Insipid Sisters.  I cannot watch any episode in which either of them appears so that pretty much rules out watching any of Season 8.

I liked Julian's take on Cole but I agree that the love affair was just too obsessive.  It's not like Cole and Phoebe had anything in common other than being mystical creatures.  And when Phoebe chose to be his Queen my eyes just about rolled out of my head.

A spin-off would have been nice as long as it didn't go down a Bewitched trail.  Liked the kiddies, they were adorable.

[magicdog]

15 hours ago, Blandings said:

Prue/Piper/Phoebe felt much more authentically like sisters than Piper/Phoebe/Paige did and I thought the show worked a lot better with the first sister trio than the second one.

To be fair, it made sense since Paige didn't grow up with her older sisters and was for all intents and purposes, a stranger.  I'm not saying they couldn't love one another or work together but there is a difference.  I also agree Prue should have remained alive and Paige turning up later.

 

14 hours ago, Blandings said:

I read somewhere a long time ago that the show considered a spin-off featuring Piper, Leo, Chris and Wyatt as a witchy family in a mostly mortal world.

I never heard this!  However, I think the sub par writers/show runners would have probably made it into a Bewitched type show.  Besides, wouldn't it have been redundant since the Halliwells were already living that witches amongst mortals lifestyle?

Edited November 18, 2016 by magicdog

[amensisterfriend]

I'm seriously stunned by how much I loved the understandably unpopular S6 this last time around. There are still individual storylines, episodes, character choices etc. I dislike, but overall I found it so engaging and enjoyable. i'm a sucker for time travel storylines---even when they're not done all that well :)  I love seeing Piper as a mom to Wyatt this season and her eventual relationship with Chris touches me more than I'd expected it to. Chris in general adds snark and energy, and while I get why many dislike the character, he just really appeals to me for some reason. And I've probably detailed why in another thread, but I think S6 is my very favorite season for Paige. I still don't like Phoebe or her hair all that much this season, but she was the open, charming, vibrant, compassionate Phoebe I used to love at least a LITTLE more often than I'd remembered, and I agree with whoever noted here or on another thread that her empath power was an at least somewhat amusing and interesting idea. I came away thinking that S6 has more episodes I'd rewatch over and over than the much more popular S5 does, actually---Forget Me Not, The Power of Three Blondes (yes, I know this is objectively not a good episode, but I adore it for some bizarre reason!), Soul Survivor, Sword and the City, Chris-Crossed, Witchstock, Witch Wars and both parts of It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World...and I have terrible taste, but at least this is the right thread to admit that ;) It's funny, because back when Charmed first aired, I remember LOVING S6; it's when my younger self became truly obsessed with the show.  I then was disappointed when I watched it again, but apparently now I'm back to loving it. 

If my opinions of nearly every aspect of this show keep becoming more and more positive, maybe one day I'll even find myself with the ultimate UO of liking Billie and Christie. But I wouldn't hold your breath ;)

[Kohola3]

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If my opinions of nearly every aspect of this show keep becoming more and more positive, maybe one day I'll even find myself with the ultimate UO of liking Billie and Christie. 

Oh, geez, no.  I will have to have you committed.

[Blandings]

If my opinions of nearly every aspect of this show keep becoming more and more positive, maybe one day I'll even find myself with the ultimate UO of liking Billie and Christie. But I wouldn't hold your breath

They're my favorite characters. Is that not popular here? I can't imagine why. 

Sorry, I should have warned you all that I'm as sarcastic as Piper. They are the worst. I think I hate Billie even more than Christy, but that may be because Billie is around more often. 

I'm seriously stunned by how much I loved the understandably unpopular S6 this last time around. There are still individual storylines, episodes, character choices etc. I dislike, but overall I found it so engaging and enjoyable. i'm a sucker for time travel storylines---even when they're not done all that well :)  I love seeing Piper as a mom to Wyatt this season and her eventual relationship with Chris touches me more than I'd expected it to. Chris in general adds snark and energy, and while I get why many dislike the character, he just really appeals to me for some reason. And I've probably detailed why in another thread, but I think S6 is my very favorite season for Paige. I still don't like Phoebe or her hair all that much this season, but she was the open, charming, vibrant, compassionate Phoebe I used to love at least a LITTLE more often than I'd remembered, and I agree with whoever noted here or on another thread that her empath power was an at least somewhat amusing and interesting idea. I came away thinking that S6 has more episodes I'd rewatch over and over than the much more popular S5 does, actually---Forget Me Not, The Power of Three Blondes (yes, I know this is objectively not a good episode, but I adore it for some bizarre reason!), Soul Survivor, Sword and the City, Chris-Crossed, Witchstock, Witch Wars and both parts of It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World...and I have terrible taste, but at least this is the right thread to admit that ;) It's funny, because back when Charmed first aired, I remember LOVING S6; it's when my younger self became truly obsessed with the show.  I then was disappointed when I watched it again, but apparently now I'm back to loving it.

Even though my heart belongs to the earliest seasons, I will always love season 6. I think I ranked it low on another thread and wanted to change it right away. Of the second half of the series, I would keep the sixth season over the fifth, seventh or eighth. I like all the episodes you mentioned too, along with The Courtship of Wyatt's Father. 

I looked over the episode list this morning and don't think I like the fifth season as much as most people here and on other Charmed boards do. That's my latest unpopular contribution to this thread! 

[Lady Calypso]

13 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

I'm seriously stunned by how much I loved the understandably unpopular S6 this last time around. There are still individual storylines, episodes, character choices etc. I dislike, but overall I found it so engaging and enjoyable. i'm a sucker for time travel storylines---even when they're not done all that well :)  I love seeing Piper as a mom to Wyatt this season and her eventual relationship with Chris touches me more than I'd expected it to. Chris in general adds snark and energy, and while I get why many dislike the character, he just really appeals to me for some reason. And I've probably detailed why in another thread, but I think S6 is my very favorite season for Paige. I still don't like Phoebe or her hair all that much this season, but she was the open, charming, vibrant, compassionate Phoebe I used to love at least a LITTLE more often than I'd remembered, and I agree with whoever noted here or on another thread that her empath power was an at least somewhat amusing and interesting idea. I came away thinking that S6 has more episodes I'd rewatch over and over than the much more popular S5 does, actually---Forget Me Not, The Power of Three Blondes (yes, I know this is objectively not a good episode, but I adore it for some bizarre reason!), Soul Survivor, Sword and the City, Chris-Crossed, Witchstock, Witch Wars and both parts of It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World...and I have terrible taste, but at least this is the right thread to admit that ;) It's funny, because back when Charmed first aired, I remember LOVING S6; it's when my younger self became truly obsessed with the show.  I then was disappointed when I watched it again, but apparently now I'm back to loving it. 

If my opinions of nearly every aspect of this show keep becoming more and more positive, maybe one day I'll even find myself with the ultimate UO of liking Billie and Christie. But I wouldn't hold your breath ;)

Yay! Join the not so dark side with me and my love for S6! But I also have the UO that Phoebe's hair in this season didn't bug me as much as others. I didn't like it all that much, but it's far less awful for me. I grew to tolerate it. This season has so many episodes I'd gladly rewatch. I can count on one hand the episodes I have a hard time rewatching, but overall, this season is great. Chris is great. Evil Wyatt is a pleasant surprise to me. This, to me, is Phoebe's last good season before she becomes family obsessed. Seeing Piper independent of Leo was also fantastic to see, even if I didn't particular enjoy their separation story in the beginning. And...ok, I think Richard was the weakest of Paige's love interests, but I still enjoyed seeing a male witch. It was such a rarity to have a male witch on this show.

[Kohola3]

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They're my favorite characters. Is that not popular here? I can't imagine why. 

Ha!  Must be that you love the shiny, pout-lipped, face-scrunching bad acting.

 

[Lady Calypso]

Listen; I had no problem with Billie UNTIL her sister became a reality BEFORE Christy even appeared and we knew about her being kidnapped by demons. I don't know when we found out about Christy being kidnapped by demons, but before that point, I actually enjoyed Billie. 

But yeah, Kaley Cuoco definitely has become a better actress since her stint on Charmed. I think. I don't watch Big Bang Theory but the commercials I've seen have her much better. 

[helenamonster]

On 11/19/2016 at 9:00 PM, amensisterfriend said:

If my opinions of nearly every aspect of this show keep becoming more and more positive, maybe one day I'll even find myself with the ultimate UO of liking Billie and Christie. But I wouldn't hold your breath ;)

You will not. They are objectively terrible.

[4evaQuez]

My wildly unpopular opinion is that I liked Christie a lot more than Billie. I think it's because by the time Christie was truly introduced onto the show, the producers realized the spinoff with Billie and Christie was a no go. As a result, it seems they were a okay with portraying Christie as truly villainous. Also, she isn't in the entire season, so I don't have as long to hate and resent her as I do Billie. 

[amensisterfriend]

I think I hate Billie even more than Christie too. Billie was in more scenes, thus giving my hatred more of an opportunity to grow :) 

So I was rewatching S4 (my all-time favorite---and, yeah, I probably feel that way about most seasons I rewatch, but with S4 I really mean it! ;) Seriously, unless 1) I really need a Prue fix and 2) I'm going through a fairly rare phase where I'm really not in the mood to see Cole on my screen, S4 is the definite high point of the series for me. I'm not sure how unpopular that is....? I remember many fans not liking it when it came out, but maybe opinions changed once people got used to Prue no longer being on the show. And I also think S4, while often emotional, is less bleakly dark and more sneakily funny and fun than it's given credit for. 

Anyway, while binge watching S4 I'm developing the UO that Paige and Phoebe could have had my favorite sister relationship of the series, especially if they had left Phoebe as more of the Original Recipe Phoebe from S1-S4/S5ish who I loved beyond reason. They have a lot of similarities that enable them to really get each other and see each other's perspectives: both are restless souls, searchers with a rebellious past they're trying to make up for*, both get super enthusiastic about certain things, both love adventure and new experiences, both are slightly off-the-beaten-path free spirits, both follow their instincts/intuition and are equally rewarded and punished for doing so.

I'm also noticing some differences that make for some complementary differences and interesting contrasts when they interact as both sisters and co-witches. Phoebe is more extroverted (Paige is kind of equally introverted and extroverted IMO), Phoebe is more of a sunny and (sometimes too?!) open and trusting optimist while Paige is more of a slightly emotionally guarded realist/pragmatist/semi-cynic, Paige is more grounded and logical, Paige is more blunt/tactless/direct and openly snarky, Phoebe is more affectionate and less intent on doing things without her sisters, Phoebe is more of a slightly sappy sentimentalist who loves stuff like old classic movies while Paige is more focused on reality and the present.  

Again, all of the above applies to Phoebe as I saw her from S1-S4/S5. The less said about the blandification and less likable qualities of Later Seasons Phoebe, the better for my blood pressure ;) 

* Speaking of the rebellious past thing...other than hooking up with a lot of guys, I could never quite buy that Phoebe had one of note. I get that we were supposed to take it as canon that she did, but Alyssa Milano played Phoebe with such sunny, open and at times borderline naive sweetness that made her supposedly super bad past hard for me to wrap my mind around. Especially since all we REALLY know is that she dated a lot, had trouble committing to either school or one job (VERY common for that age!) and once shoplifted  a pair of shoes. An imperfect past to be sure, but not exactly as uniquely dark as the show occasionally made it out to be :) Now, maybe this is because Rose McGowan has a certain edge about her, but I could much more easily buy Paige as a reformed 'bad girl.' And Prue, for that matter, but that may be because of how Shannen D comes across on screen (and off!) to me.   

[4evaQuez]

Wow, amensisterfriend, I have to admit I've never put too much thought into the Paige/Phoebe dynamic. But since you've mentioned it, I did think about some episodes where I really love their interactions. Season 6's Love's a Witch and Sword in the City  are two of my favorite episodes of season 6 solely because of the Paige/Phoebe dynamic. I also really like the Cole/Phoebe arc of season 4 a lot more because of the Phoebe/Paige interactions and Phoebe/Paige interactions are also why I like the Paige/Brody pairing and the Paige/Richard pairing. Speaking of, another unpopular opinion is I love Someone to Witch Over Me partly because of the Phoebe/Paige dynamic. I also just think it's a really entertaining episode. Lastly, I like the latter half of season 6 when we see Phoebe/Paige interacting more because of HMC's real life pregnancy. So while I've never truly thought about their relationship as sisters, I do love it.

Now that I'm giving it some thought, post Prue's death, I think Phoebe is the least selfish with Paige, which makes her more likeable. Mostly, Phoebe has never really butted into Piper's life either pre or post Prue's death. I can't think of many - any? - instances of Phoebe having a strong opinion regarding Piper/Leo or Piper's sons or Piper's business.

Okay, so I have an unpopular opinion. While season 4 is easily my favorite season, I actually think season 7 is the season I rewatch the most. It's funny, I remember when this season first aired, I hated everything about it. But now, I find the season does a great job of balancing some really silly plot with some really poignant moments. I like the Avatars, Zankou, Kira, and it's easy to watch any episode in any order and enjoy myself for an hour. While I wouldn't argue that this is the best season of Charmed, I would say it's the one that's the most easily rewatchable for me.

[4evaQuez]

On 11/17/2016 at 11:08 AM, Blandings said:

I love that there a lot of fans of Gilmore Girls over here. I'm trying to think of what the shows have in common. So far I've come up with how they're among the few female-centered TV shows, aired on the same network, combine humor and drama, center around family relationships and star actresses with the world's most beautiful brown hair. Some of the characters, such as Piper from Charmed and Luke from Gilmore Girls, have very similar personality types. 

 

I've thought about this question, and I think the two shows are a lot more similar that a cursory glance would lead one to believe. Both are about the familial relationship between three women (Emily,Loralai,Rory) and (Prue,Piper,Phoebe and later Paige). Both mix drama and comedy into their plots and both have a heavy infamous on romantic relationships while making sure the romantic relationship is still secondary to the relationship between the women. 

I'll also say that both shows do a great job of naturally showing women with a lot of different interests, personalities, passions, flaws, strengths and motivations without being preachy or showy. It just naturally does.

Lastly, I'll say seasons 1-4 of Gilmore Girls and seasons 1-7 of Charmed know exactly what type of shows they are and are not ashamed to play up their strengths or try to be something they are not.

[helenamonster]

12 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

Wow, amensisterfriend, I have to admit I've never put too much thought into the Paige/Phoebe dynamic. But since you've mentioned it, I did think about some episodes where I really love their interactions. Season 6's Love's a Witch and Sword in the City  are two of my favorite episodes of season 6 solely because of the Paige/Phoebe dynamic. I also really like the Cole/Phoebe arc of season 4 a lot more because of the Phoebe/Paige interactions and Phoebe/Paige interactions are also why I like the Paige/Brody pairing and the Paige/Richard pairing. Speaking of, another unpopular opinion is I love Someone to Witch Over Me partly because of the Phoebe/Paige dynamic. I also just think it's a really entertaining episode. Lastly, I like the latter half of season 6 when we see Phoebe/Paige interacting more because of HMC's real life pregnancy. So while I've never truly thought about their relationship as sisters, I do love it.

Having just down a whole rewatch recently, I'd forgotten how there was a lot more Phoebe/Paige in season six with Holly being offscreen so much due to her pregnancy, and I really enjoyed it. It seemed to be the relationship the writers focused on the least so it was a nice change of pace when it got more screentime. I also liked that it carried over a little into season seven with Phoebe acting overprotective of Paige regarding Kyle, for several reasons: 1) it was a nice callback to season six when she was overprotective of Paige regarding Richard, 2) I haaaaaated Kyle (is that unpopular? if it is I guess this is the thread to bring it up) and that was sort of the one time I remember really siding with Phoebe, especially over Paige, and 3) it was one of the few times where Paige truly felt like the baby sister to me. The original P3 dynamic was pretty strong in terms of how birth order influenced their personalities and relationships, but it got shakier when Prue died and Paige came in. Piper slotted into the oldest sister role pretty easily, but it was hard to distinguish who was older/younger with Phoebe and Paige, especially because season four had Paige thinking she knew what was best for Phoebe regarding Cole (which came off as more protective older sibling than younger sibling not minding her business, at least to me). But Phoebe being so protective of Paige in terms of her romantic relationships really helped the overall sisterly dynamic, imo.

[blueray]

The age thing with Paige and Phoebe always worked for me, as it seemed like they were close in age with each other and had similar high school experiences, which was interesting.

[amensisterfriend]

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The age thing with Paige and Phoebe always worked for me, as it seemed like they were close in age with each other and had similar high school experiences, which was interesting.

Agreed, though at times I think the writers made them too similar, leading to far less defined characterizations and relationships among the sisters than we got during the Prue era. I pointed out some differences between Phoebe and Paige in an above post, but sometimes it's hard to get around the fact that Phoebe had been the independent, curious, warmhearted, impulsive, intuitive, restless, spirited, adventurous, creative, slightly 'quirky', searching youngest sister trying to make up for a rebellious past and the most enthusiastic about their witchcraft and helping innocents...and, well, then suddenly all that applied to Paige, leaving the suddenly ill-defined, blandified, self-absorbed Phoebe as consumed with her career and her men and, ugh, don't get me started on how they ended up writing the character who I hold the UO of loving more than any other sister during those first couple of seasons :) (And we know I love them all, so that's saying a lot!)

Anyway, nearly every fellow Charmed fan---even the ones who love Piper most---seems to feel that Piper got at least a little snippier, ruder, more bitter and just plain less likable in later seasons, but I'm realizing that I actually think she was at her worst in S3, especially that first half. For me, that's when she was whiniest and most complaint-prone with the least valid reasons to be. I mean, yes, she went through phases where she was perpetually pissed off in later seasons, but at least that was often over major issues like the death of her beloved older sister, her husband constantly being taken away, her kids being in danger and/or dangers to others, etc., so I understood it even if it wasn't always especially enjoyable to watch. But in S3 (and to a slightly lesser extent in S2 when she can't stop moaning about the Dan and Leo love triangle the entire season and was never happy regardless of the current situation), she's just forever pissed off and discontent---and letting everyone know about---over stuff like Leo's proposal not being just how she wanted it and not having her ultimate dream wedding and whhhhhyyyy can't she have a "normal" life and she's selfishly going on "strike" even when innocents desperately need them...and it's just so frustrating to watch. And as much as I think HMC does some terrific work on this show, there are many times when her just-sucked-a-lemon, smile-free facial expressions and biting, snappish line deliveries make the character less likable and enjoyable than she could be for me. 

I'm trying to love you as much as everyone else does, Piper---try to make that a LITTLE easier, okay?! ;)   

Edited December 29, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, amensisterfriend said:

Anyway, nearly every fellow Charmed fan---even the ones who love Piper most---seems to feel that Piper got at least a little snippier, ruder, more bitter and just plain less likable in later seasons, but I'm realizing that I actually think she was at her worst in S3, especially that first half. For me, that's when she was whiniest and most complaint-prone with the least valid reasons to be. I mean, yes, she went through phases where she was perpetually pissed off in later seasons, but at least that was often over major issues like the death of her beloved older sister, her husband constantly being taken away, her kids being in danger and/or dangers to others, etc., so I understood it even if it wasn't always especially enjoyable to watch. But in S3 (and to a slightly lesser extent in S2 when she can't stop moaning about the Dan and Leo love triangle the entire season and was never happy regardless of the current situation), she's just forever pissed off and discontent---and letting everyone know about---over stuff like Leo's proposal not being just how she wanted it and not having her ultimate dream wedding and whhhhhyyyy can't she have a "normal" life and she's selfishly going on "strike" even when innocents desperately need them...and it's just so frustrating to watch. And as much as I think HMC does some terrific work on this show, there are many times when her just-sucked-a-lemon, smile-free facial expressions and biting, snappish line deliveries make the character less likable and enjoyable than she could be for me. 

Heh. For me, Piper's my third or sometimes second favourite. Paige will always be my number one, and depending on the point in the first three seasons, Prue's my second favourite. However, I might have to disagree with you on her being at her worst in season 3. For me, she definitely had her frustrating moments during season 3, but the beginning half of season 8 will forever be the point where I got so pissed off at Piper's attitude. Luckily that changed during season 8, but the first half of season 8 is definitely where Piper was at her most whiniest. Piper just had the worst attitude, and I think it's made worse when the show was presenting it as humourous (such as the neglect of Leo during the Battle of the Hexes episode). So, Piper gets her magic free life, except not really because they still have to use magic to glamour themselves. But Piper legitimately complaining about how they fought demons for seven years and now she was retiring? It showed her at her most selfish, especially when Paige was trying to stay in the magic realm and Piper was frustrated that she was. 

For season 3 Piper, she was already dealing with the annoying Elders breathing down her back. She had gone up with Leo for a month, and then found out that the Elders were actively trying to split up their relationship. Looking back on season 2, where Leo had to clip his wings to even be with Piper and I can imagine how frustrating it cold be for her. She wanted a normal life and relationship, and she wasn't able to. Was she still annoying as hell? Of course. But it makes sense. Leo was also taken away in season 3 from her, so she also had every right to be pissed. I totally get where you're coming from. I just think Piper thinking that seven years is enough when it comes to not just killing demons, but saving innocents, is a pretty selfish way of thinking about things. 

[amensisterfriend]

Ha---Lady C, I tend to block out most of the non-Henry, non-finale aspects of S8, but you're absolutely correct that Piper was particularly selfish, whiny and petulant then :) I did like her need to try to cook for and nurture the dreadful Christy and Billie in S8, but that's about it. It's just interesting to me, because I so often hear in other places about how Prue is snippy, impatient and too joyless, how Paige is bratty and whiny and how Phoebe is selfish and cares too much about her own life, and to a large extent I agree, but IM(U)O Piper has all those flaws in equal or greater measure and is still almost universally regarded as by far the most likable sister among nearly all the fans I know. I can see why people find her relatable---I'm sure that many people would have similar reactions to Piper upon finding out they were witches and to some of the challenges they faced along the way, and I know a lot of people like her sarcasm and snark. And I really do like a lot about her, but I guess my UO is that for me she's arguably the most problematic sister, not the least. It reminds me so much of Luke Danes---he, too, is this perpetually cranky, negative, bitter, super complaint-prone guy who nearly every other fan adores and who I have trouble with, so clearly it's just something about how those kind of characters do (and don't!) come across for me. For some reason I tend to be drawn to fictional characters with more spirit, enthusiasm, joy and slightly better attitudes---probably in part because I sometimes struggle to maintain those things in myself :) Objectively I do get why she was miserable and angry and pessimistic a lot of the time, but that doesn't mean I especially like seeing it on my screen! 

I feel like if the writers had indicated she had legitimate issues with anxiety and/or depression, I'd empathize with her a lot more---and during the times when I do connect with Piper most, it's when those fanwanks are securely intact in my weird little mind :) Because I know firsthand that depression and anxiety do make people really irritable, pessimistic, reluctant to embrace any type of deviation from plan, etc., so for me that would explain so much about her. But then it often just seems like she doesn't have legitimate emotional/psychological issues---just a kind of put upon martyr thing going on, a high degree of self-pity and a surprisingly nasty bite to her sometimes, so at those points my attempts to love her more kind of falter :)  

Edited December 29, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[whateverhappened]

Charmed! I really loved this show. I think I still do, but I haven't seen it recently. Thanks to all of you, I'm about to start watching it again. 

After looking at the episode list just now, I found that most of my favorite ones are in S5. Is it unpopular to love S5 the most? Most people I know still maintain that the Prue seasons are the best. 

This is where you all start to hate me: I love Phoebe. She's my favorite. Paige and Piper are tied, then Prue. I love Lorelai Gilmore of Gilmore Girls as well, so it seems I have a type. Enthusiastic, optimistic, scattered and slightly odd characters who have a lot of spirit and vitality, a lot of flaws, and can be selfish but have good hearts. I understand why many fans don't like either of those characters, but I'm drawn to them. Possibly not in real life, but I love watching them from the safety of my couch! 

I don't love Prue that much but have no idea why. She's got so many qualities I admire, but I had trouble caring about her.

I think the relationship between Piper and Phoebe was my favorite. I thought they balanced each other out really well and seemed to always understand each other no matter how different they were. I know we were supposed to think that Piper became very close to Paige, but tbh they still seemed incredibly annoyed with each other most of the time. 

I didn't think of it until reading this thread, but I agree that it seems out of character for Piper to want to run a "hip" nightclub. But not out of character for the network to want an excuse to showcase different bands every episode. :) 

My favorite Cole scenes were in S5 when he was no longer dating Phoebe.

I saw on other sites that people think Rose McGowan was the weakest actress. That may be the case, but I thought she was a great choice for the role of Paige. She brought that mixture of awkwardness and vulnerability with edgy sass.   

I don't think I really shipped any of the couples on this show. Until I looked at the episode descriptions just now, I had honestly fogotten that the character of Jason even existed and it turns out he was around for almost two seasons. Andy, Leo, the guy who Paige ended up marrying are all guys I recall as nice enough but not memorable to me. 

[Esmeralda]

Hi!  I'm a "refugee from IMDb" whose message boards are closing, so I'm hunting for a new Charmed home and LOVE the looks of this one, especially when I saw this thread! I'm in my 60's so a lot of my opinions tend to be different than others.  But as long as you allow me my opinions, I'll gladly allow yours - and have been known to change my mind if given a good reasons.

I'll give you a chance to get to know me by revealing my unpopular opinions:

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1. Couldn't stand Piper and Leo together, except in Season One - think she'd be much better with Mark the Ghost or Henry, and Leo would be much better with either Phoebe or Paige.

2. Couldn't stand Phoebe and Cole together - think he'd be a lot better with Prue or Paige, and she'd be a lot better with Drake or Leo or Kyra!

3. Despite the comics, think that Chris is the reincarnation of Prue - all of the parts of him that I can't stand I love in her.

3. Think the series should've ended when Shax said "The end" and that Season 4-8 is the alternate universe spin-off, "The Perils of Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper" - where the only thing similar between that and "Charmed" (S1-3) are the names of some of the characters.

4. Think the series would've been much, much, MUCH better if Phoebe had died rather than Prue and even BETTER if Piper had stayed dead during "Awakened" and that's when we met Paige who would have no whiteligher powers! ESPECIALLY if she was played by Jennifer Love Hewitt rather than Rose McGowan

5. Think that there should've never been such a thing as witchlighters or half-whitelighters - hate the idea of dead men being able to sire children. Also hate the idea of demons and humans being able to mate - they're two different species.  Would've preferred Cole and Drake as warlocks

6. Think the idea that a half-demon who was raised by his demonic mother and had been a mercenary demon for more than 70 years could fall in love rather than just being obsessed just because half of him is human is the stupidest idea the show came up with. Had he been raised by his non-magical father and was truly in his '30's, I'd feel totally differently.

7. Liked Billie a lot more once Christy showed up and wished that they had won the final battle rather than the Charmed Ones - although *really* think that Zankou should've won the battle in "Something Wicca This Way Goes" and would've if the writers hadn't cheated.

8. Think that Leo should've stayed away after "Love Hurts" and Prue and Andy should've been the couple who was together (but never got married and never had kids) during all 4 seasons (Had it been those two, I don't think Charmed would've lasted more than 4 years, which would've been just fine with me)

9. Think that the worst episode was "Sleuthing with the Enemy" - the death of my favorite character, Phoebs, and the birth of my least-favorite character, PhoeME/Freebie

10. Despite the comics, think that "Forever Crap", I mean "Forever Piper", I mean "Forever Charmed" is Piper's delusion as she dies after the explosion in 'Kill Billie, Vol 2' and Paige is the one who survived by panic-orbing and then getting out of Dodge, finally ridding herself of her selfish, self-centered half-sisters

 

 

 

 

And because I believe it's better to light one candle than to curse the darkness, I'd like to present my Dream Charmed - what Charmed would've been like if I'd had my way.  Perhaps others would like to do the same thing.  I LOVE reading alternate versions of Charmed!

 

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My Dream Charmed begins the series by showing the townspeople of Salem, MA getting ready to hang Melinda Warren [Finola Hughes - one of the Charmed Ones says she looks like their mother (who was actually never supposed to be seen). And since I love the way Finola played Patty - my original favorite character and since this doesn't include Paige, she still would be - I’d want her to play Melinda the way the actresses play their characters' past selves in 'Pardon My Past'] as a witch as she tells them her vision of the future Charmed Ones. Even as she drops, we cut to modern-day San Francisco. 

The rest of Season One is similar to the canon one with some differences, mainly in the backstory and what comes from it. 

Prudence "Prue" Halliwell [Shannen Doherty] has never had a boyfriend because she closed her heart after the death of her mother. Instead she’s been taking care of her sisters and her grandmother, Penelope "Penny" Johnson [Jennifer Rhodes - no, in mine, Penny is not a Halliwell – and neither was the sisters' mother, Patience "Patty" Johnson Halliwell [Finola Hughes], until she married Victor Halliwell [Tony Dennison]. Halliwell women do *not* keep their maiden name, just like the 20's cousins who were Baxters, Bowens and Russells didn't, hence why the sisters are Halliwells and not Warrens.

Roger [Matthew Ashford] isn’t Prue’s fiancé but just her supervisor, who is fired after their boss Rex Buckland [Neil Roberts] finds out that Roger stole her ideas, so Rex makes her one of the auction house managers instead.  Unlike Canon Rex, my Dream Rex is truly the owner of the auction house and has been for a long time, since his secretary, Hannah Webster [Debbi Morgan] is a Seer who saw Prue getting a job there after graduating from college. Hannah never flirts with anyone, especially not Rex - like Rex, she's all business.

Just like Canon Prue, my Dream Prue is a bit stiff, a bit strait-laced, but loosens up as the season goes along, as she feels sympathy for the innocents (and in my Dream Charmed, innocents are those who are innocent of the existence of magic) they are saving and anger at the villains (both male and female, both magical and non-magical) who are after them. 

Piper Halliwell [Holly Marie Combs] is the same as Canon Piper except that she was never a banker…she didn’t have to be, since Prue was the one who took care of Penny, so since graduation from high school, Piper has always worked at Quake, even when she was at cooking school. Otherwise, no need to change her or her and Leo Wyatt’s [Brian Krause] story. Just like Canon Piper, my Dream Piper is the one who least wants to be a witch, but goes along with her sisters, especially when she sees how much their powers can help people. 

Although Phoebe "Phoebs" Halliwell [Alyssa Milano] was the wild child and moved away to New York after Penny’ death, she found herself there and now wants to go back to school, the reason why she moves back in with her sisters. Just like Canon Phoebe, my Dream Phoebs is the one who finds the Book of Shadows and says the spell that activates their magic, and she’s the one most fascinated with magic. After she finds the Book, she puts off school in order to concentrate on being a witch. She takes temp jobs instead, and through them finds innocents for her and her sisters to save.

She is very surprised when she comes back from New York to find out that her just-as-wild high-school boyfriend is now an inspector with the San Francisco Police Department. Mark Chao [John Cho] discovers her secret during the first episode of the second half of the season after she helps him solve his most baffling case with the help of her premonition, which he sees her receive. Just like Canon Andy, my Dream Mark can accept her as a witch, but not as a wife, at least for now, and since Phoebs is nowhere close to settling down, that’s fine with her, so they just remain lovers, but now she can also tell him about magical cases and he helps the sisters out. His partner, Darryl Morris [Dorian Gregory], is always suspicious and curious as to why Mark knows so much about the cases, but never discovers the sisters’ secret.

I chose John Cho rather than Ted King since Ted looks too old to be the same age as Phoebs, besides liking the idea of one of the stars being Asian-American, since so many San Franciscans are Asian-Americans. This also means that unlike Canon Andy, my Dream Mark never moved to Washington and was never married, but was always just the boy next door… Also, rather obviously it's a different Asian-American who dies in 'Dead Man Dating' and whose ghost falls for Piper, although Mark is the one who helps them figure out who Yama is.

The other major difference is the season finale which combines both 'Love Hurts' and 'Déjà vu All Over Again'. In order to stop the everlasting time loop which results in the death of Leo's charge, Daisy [Kat Coio], Piper must let Leo die… Also, rather than Canon Rodriguez, the demon helping the Demon of Time  [David Carridine] isn't a demon at all, instead it’s two warlocks…Rex and Hannah. Hannah could foresee the results of the time loops, but couldn't foresee or prevent hers and Rex’s vanquish.

After Leo's death, the Charmed Ones no longer need a whitelighter to guide them which they needed during their first year as witches, and we never hear the word whitelighter again, nor do we ever hear the word Elder (like the first two canon seasons, they're always referred to as just THEY), or, thank God, witchlighter or half-whitelighter. This means that Sam never existed since Patty wouldn't have needed a whitelighter in her first year as a witch, so neither would Paige. We never need to find out if dead men can sire children, and if they do, if they can pass their powers to their children.

Obviously this changes Season Two, as Piper is the one who mourns her lost love rather than Prue. This is when she goes on strike, just like she did in the beginning of Canon Season Three, and just like then, it's when she's almost the cause of a young girl losing her life that she changes her mind. But unlike Canon Season Three, Leo is never returned… 

Instead Henry Mitchell [Ivan Sergei] moves in next door, halfway through the season, with the following episodes similar to the first ones in Canon Season Two, but unlike Canon Dan, my Dream Henry has no reason to be jealous of Leo...only of Piper's memories of him. Instead, when he finds out that Piper is a witch - the same way Canon Henry did in Canon Season Eight, not how Canon Dan did - he also finds out what Leo was, and can accept that, since he respects Piper's decision to let Leo die in order to save an innocent.

Much like Canon Henry in Canon Season Eight (the reason I chose him, since he’s much more like Henry than Dan), he decides that he can accept Piper as a witch and Piper finds herself falling for him, big-time, especially because when she’s not saving innocents, he helps her have a normal life as a normal couple, something Leo could never do. We never again hear her whining about wanting a normal life. With Henry’s help, she decides to quit Quake and use the money she’s saved as a manager to start a restaurant of her own - P3. 

Meanwhile, Phoebs and Mark continue to solve crimes with the help of her sisters, keeping the focus of the show on innocents, as we see all of the innocents and antagonists who we saw in Canon Season Two (the reason it's my favorite season), with, of course, the exception of Sam who doesn’t exist.  Phoebs and Mark are still lovers, but don’t even consider marriage until Phoebs almost dies trying to save an innocent, a victim of one of the crimes they're trying to solve. Mark realizes that he loves her no matter if she's a witch or not and pops the question, and she accepts. 

We also see another antagonist, although if this was truly the first time we’d see the show, we wouldn’t know it. When the sisters end up having to testify at a trial, Prue takes a liking to Assistant District Attorney Cole Turner [Julian McMahon], and he returns the favor. But when he asks her out, she refuses. Only after she meets Cupid[ [Michael Reilly Burke] and becomes his ring, does she open her heart and accept Cole's offer. 

The season finale is an episode similar to “The Honeymoon’s Over”, except, of course, Piper is also part of it, since no one has gone (or could ever go) Up There without suffocating from lack of oxygen. This is when we find out that Cole is indeed trying to kill the sisters. And unlike Canon Charmed, he never turns into 'Dream Belthazor' because my Dream Cole is not half-demon, instead he's a warlock who only pretends to care for Prue and simply wants to discover the sisters’ weaknesses so he can destroy them and take their powers. There is no Source or other Big Bad in my Dream Charmedverse — the one who comes closest to being that is my Dream Cole himself, who is more like a combination of Canon Belthazor and Canon Zankou than the half-demon we know, since this one is pure warlock and pure evil - in my Dream Charmedverse, the only demons are "The Demons of..." Even Hecate was a warlock using that name, not a demon. Also in mine, witches are good and warlocks are evil – sorry, in my fantasy (emphasis on fantasy...not reality) world, no grey morality allowed!  The difference is that witches who do evil turn into warlocks (so Phoebe in 'Morality Bites' is a warlock...as are the 20's cousins in 'Pardon My Past' and as is Tuatha) while warlocks who do good (like Brendan Rowe) turn into witches – my Dream Cole just isn’t one of those.  Making him half-human ruins him in my eyes the same way making Paige half-whitelighter ruins her and the show, leading to having a whitelighter as a father being more important than having a witch for a mother.

Unlike Canon Season Two, since there is no 'P3 H20' - no need to show anyone what could happen if a whitelighter falls in love with his charge - Prue never stops working at the auction house, nor does she ever get her astral projection power. Instead all three sisters are gaining better control of their powers (like Phoebs being able to force premonitions by touching an item and closing her eyes) and Piper and Prue can use theirs over larger distances. 

Season Three, the final season of my Dream Charmed, continues to have Mark and Phoebs solving crime while also planning their wedding, so we continue to have the one-shot format that I love, while also having the story-arc that most fans love, even if some fans won't like it as much since my Dream Cole never truly loves a Charmed One, but does have a lot of chemistry with Prue. Meanwhile, Piper and Henry are becoming closer, and Prue thinks that so are she and Cole. 

With these exceptions (and Phoebs and Mark not having to fight THEM - who are never shown - in order to get married, since unlike Canon Leo, my Dream Mark isn't dead), the season works pretty much like the canon one except that Piper never gets her explosion power and Phoebs never levitates.

Mark and Phoebs’ wedding happens halfway through the season, working much like Canon Leo and Canon Piper’s so that Patty and Penny can be part of it, although there’s also plans for a big, huge public church wedding later on, since unlike Canon Leo, my Dream Mark isn’t dead. 

But rather than Canon Prue interrupting it, it’s Shax [Michael Bailey Smith] who suddenly appears. The sisters vanquish him, but when they check the Book of Shadows, they find that he is just a warlockian hitman, so there is someone a lot worse out there. Phoebs tells Mark that she loves him and still wants to marry him, but only after they find and vanquish Shax’s boss… 

The rest of the season works out similar to the canon season except, of course, there are no honeymooners, Phoebs and Mark continue to work on saving innocents, and Prue eventually finds out that the true evil is Cole. Even though it breaks her heart, In the grand finale, she helps her sisters battle and vanquish him. 

The Angel of Destiny [Dakin Matthews] shows up, and with Melinda Warren's blessing, the sisters decide to give up their powers so they can live normal lives, with Prue finally deciding to quit Buckland's so she can try to live her own dream - that of being a photographer - something we've seen signs of since the series premiere..., Piper considering marrying Henry while happily running her restaurant, and Phoebs deciding to go back to college and become an inspector herself so she can continue to help Mark and Darryl solve crimes, even without her powers. 

Only then do we see the big grand church wedding as Phoebs and Mark are married, the last scene of the series.

That's my Dream Charmed.  What would yours be like?

[whateverhappened]

What interesting ideas! I loved reading them. I'll have to think about my own Dream Charmed. Hopefully rewatching will inspire me. 

I always loved the idea of at least one of the sisters being a crime solver by trade. I've often Prue as a fit for that and Phoebe as a reporter, but I really like your idea of Phoebe as an investigator as well. I thought Piper had great chemistry with Mark so it's hard for me to see him with Phoebe, but I love the idea of Leo and the elders not sticking around for the entire series. I saw something else on one of these threads about how the series might have been improved by Leo's absence. Piper might have complained less and be a little happier in a different sort of marriage and the women would to rely on their own resources and stumble towards resolutions rather than on an angel who always offered exposition and guidance. Leo himself isn't that interesting to me. Most of the show's male characters aren't!

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Edited February 10, 2017 by whateverhappened

[Esmeralda]

Oh, yes, I loved Piper and Mark, too, but I felt that of all of them, she's the one who would be the happiest not married to someone not-quite-human, someone who could give her a normal life, and I felt that would be Henry.  

I'll agree that they didn't do a great job with male characters,  although the first time I watched the series, not knowing what was coming, I was *so* in love with Leo, he'll always be my favorite male.  Just wish he was never with Piper.

Having read some of the posts in this thread, I have to say that I agree with a lot of the members that Charmed at its best was much more like Gilmore Girls and Seventh Heaven (along with Charmed, my favorite WB shows) than it was like Buffy and Angel and other such supernatural ones.  I always liked it best when the magical part of the series was secondary to them being sisters.

On 11/21/2016 at 1:40 AM, helenamonster said:

You will not. They are objectively terrible.

But not as terrible as S8 Piper and S8 Phoebe.  That's *my* UO!

On 11/20/2016 at 10:32 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Listen; I had no problem with Billie UNTIL her sister became a reality BEFORE Christy even appeared and we knew about her being kidnapped by demons. I don't know when we found out about Christy being kidnapped by demons, but before that point, I actually enjoyed Billie. 

But yeah, Kaley Cuoco definitely has become a better actress since her stint on Charmed. I think. I don't watch Big Bang Theory but the commercials I've seen have her much better. 

I don't think Kaley has become a better actress.  I just think that like Alyssa Milano, she's better at comedy than she is at drama.  At least Kaley is sticking with her strengths rather than her weaknesses now.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Esmeralda
Oops! Meant "I felt it would be Henry" rather than "Mark:

[whateverhappened]

I am always so interested in the debate on this and other threads on how much Piper did or didn't change. Losing Prue and being shoved into the role of oldest sister, which on this show meant she suddenly had to be more of the leader and in charge, did make her more bitterly burdened and cynical. But I also agree with people who said that Piper was always sour, surly and prone to self pity, especially past the first season. She has great facets to her character as well, but whenever I see episodes from S2 and S3 I see that a lot of the problems people have with Piper in later seasons really were there all along. If there were a drinking game where people had to take a shot every time she snapped at Leo, complained about her relationship with him or gave some variation of the line about why she can't just lead a normal life, we'd all be in a coma very early on even if we were watching episodes from S2 and S3, not just the seaosns following Prue's death! 

Edited February 10, 2017 by whateverhappened

[Esmeralda]

I've always said that Piper was one of those people who was happiest when she had something to complain about, which is why I call her "Poor, poor pitiful Piper."  I loved the fact that losses and problems made Prue and Paige stronger; they made Piper and Phoebe weaker.

Piper was also one of those people who tried to adjust everything to her own desires, rather than adjusting herself to what is.  And if anyone recognizes that from AA or Al-Anon or Ala-Teen, you're right.  My dad was an alcoholic when he was alive, so I know the "Just for Todays" well. To me it's amazing that they said that Paige was the alcoholic when the one who should've been was the one who owned the nightclub...

Edited February 10, 2017 by Esmeralda

[Lady Calypso]

First off, @Esmeralda, welcome! We're happy to have you here, especially after the IMDB message boards closed. I remember almost three years ago when Television Without Pity forums closed and the majority of the site migrated over here. I'd like to think that we're a place to take in Internet refugees, so hello!

You have some pretty interesting opinions, some I agree with and, of course, some I personally don't (I am an avid Chris supporter, so be warned) but I like to think that I'm still pretty chill about differing opinions. 

I will also have to think of my own Dream Charmed. I know I've thought about it from time to time over the years. 

[Esmeralda]

This is partially why I wish they would've let Paige be the Only Child she truly was.  An Only is much more like an Oldest than the Baby. Once she was taught the Craft, she could've/should've taken over that role from Piper with those two quickly following her since they were used to doing that with Prue.  And Paige could've treated them as women rather than children as Prue did, allowing them the chance to grow, something neither of them ever did.  They were just as much children at the end of the show as they were at the beginning - the type that thinks everything is all about them and the type that should never have kids. If anyone remembers Rebecca on 'Cheers' and how she wanted to find a rich man and instead ended up with a plumber, I always thought Phoebe (picking on *her* for a change...) should've ended up with a non-magical handyman who couldn't give her her daughter but who could've made the true baby of the family the center of his universe.  That's what would've made her happy.  Piper? Let Piper bind the boys' power and then let Leo take his boys and go somewhere else and let Piper become the new Rachel Raye with her own TV cooking show. Paige? Have her tell the Elders to take these whitelighter powers and screw them - she won't truly be a whitelighter until after she's dead - IF she earns her wings! Then she could go back to being a social worker and do a lot of good.  I see her and Henry fostering a bunch of non-magical kids.

Please note: If this happened, Melinda Warren would've been right.  The Warren legacy of magic would've culminated (ended) with the Charmed Ones.

[Esmeralda]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

First off, @Esmeralda, welcome! We're happy to have you here, especially after the IMDB message boards closed. I remember almost three years ago when Television Without Pity forums closed and the majority of the site migrated over here. I'd like to think that we're a place to take in Internet refugees, so hello!

You have some pretty interesting opinions, some I agree with and, of course, some I personally don't (I am an avid Chris supporter, so be warned) but I like to think that I'm still pretty chill about differing opinions. 

I will also have to think of my own Dream Charmed. I know I've thought about it from time to time over the years. 

Thank you, Lady C (and I've seen that that's your nickname - mine is Es.  Everyone, feel free to use it) I appreciate the welcome.

I'll let you know that I also love Chris, but like so much of latter Charmed, the Chris he should've been, not the Chris he was.  And some of my best Charmed friends are Chris-fans who understand how I feel, so we get along fine.

I just wish they hadn't changed him when Holly became pregnant which made him seem like such a little liar, so I never believed a word he said (no family in the future, anyone?  Paige turned into stone but still the one who gave him money, anyone?) especially since he never asked forgiveness for those lies.

HAVE to include a short story that's my combination of two of my all-time favorite stories.  If only this had been part of that huge gap between 'The Courtship of Wyatt's Father" and "Hyde Park Reunion", I'd feel a lot differently regarding Chris.

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ES' NOTES: During Season 7, I came up with an idea. I'd do a novelization of Season 6, but besides novelizing the scripts, I’d also novelize fanfics that include scenes that should’ve been part of that season and weren’t. 

Well, I wrote and got the permission from a number of authors to use their ideas, however, for various reasons, that novel died. But I still love portions that I wrote, and of those, this is my favorite and my most popular. It starts near the end of 'The Courtship of Wyatt's Father'. I hope you enjoy it!  As one of the authors put it: 

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie Doll:

I wanted to show how Piper and Chris came to having that relationship they have in later episodes. I found the series just skipped over that much too hastily and it disappointed me.

 

I agree totally and I think you might, too, after you read this.   
 
DISCLAIMER

I don’t own any characters from Charmed--they are all owned by Spelling Productions and the WB. This story was not written for sale, but is meant only for the visitors to websites for fans of the show Charmed. This story  features characters, plotpoints and/or conversations based on ones from the following stories: 

"Understanding" by Valkyrie Doll

"Do I Know You?" by Charmed LitWitch

and is used with their authors' permissions. This fanfic is lovingly, gratefully dedicated to them!!

NO GREATER LOVE...

PART SIX: EPILOGUE TO "THE COURTSHIP OF WYATT'S FATHER"

by Esmeralda

Based on

"The Courtship of Wyatt's Father",  written by Brad Kern,
"Do I Know You?" written by Charmed LitWitch and
"Understanding" written by Valkyrie Doll

Now that Paige and I knew that Piper was pregnant with Chris, we were sitting on Piper's bed, waiting for her to come in, eager to share our news with her. When she walked in, she was very surprised to see us, saying, "Oh, hi," before warily asking, "What's going on?"

I patted the bed between Paige and me. "Here," I urged. "Maybe you'd better sit down..."

I didn't mean to worry her, but I did. "Uh-oh," she remarked even more warily. "That doesn't sound good." 

I led her over to edge of the bed, telling her, "No, it is, I think--" and I turned to Paige, asking her, "Don't you?"

She nodded tentatively. "I think," before adding, "It depends."

Now Piper was now more worried, and starting to get a bit impatient with us. "Okay, now that sounds worse."

"No, no," soothed Paige, before adding. "It's just -- complicated, that's all."

Now Piper was becoming very impatient and demanded that we just come out and tell her.

I looked at Paige, who nodded for me to continue, so I tried. "Okay, well, uh, we sorta know what happened in the Ghostly Plane, I mean between you & Leo."

She stared at me in shock. "Excuse me?"

"Not because anybody told us or anything!" Paige quickly explained, "It's just because of, well, uh, Chris."

That confused her worse. "Chris? How would he know what happened?"

"Because he wouldn't still be here if it didn't happen," I told her matter-of-factly. She gave me a look of utter confusion, so I tried to explain it more clearly. "We've known for a while, but we weren't sure how to tell you, how to tell Leo."

"Tell us what?" she demanded.

So Paige just came right out and told her. "That Chris is Wyatt's little brother. And that if you & Leo hadn't, uh, gotten together in time, he'd never be born."

Piper was absolutely stunned, staring at us in disbelief, obviously unable to accept any of this. "Wait a minute, what?" she cried. "What are you saying?"

"I know this is huge --" I started.

"Huge?!" she yelled, now in total denial. "Are you kidding; it's crazy! In fact, it's, it's not even possible for a very simple reason -- I'm not pregnant!"

And both Paige and I very firmly, very emphatically nodded, letting our actions tell her in no certain terms that, yes, she was.

"But, how can that be..." she asked, still shocked. We watched as it slowly sank in, then she asked in a small, scared voice, "What am I going to do?"

"Maybe you oughta talk to Leo about it," I suggested, since I was determined to tell him if she didn't.

She shook her head firmly, still scared. "No, I can't."

"Why not?" asked Paige, and I was about to tell her that if she didn't, I would, because he deserved to know.

But Piper answered Paige. "Because, well, because it's hard enough for him to move on, to let go. I don't want to make it any harder."

Paige and I exchanged looks, not understanding, but before we could ask, Chris stepped into the doorway. Seeing the way Paige and I stared at him, he asked self-consciously, "Is this a bad time?"

Hearing his voice, Piper turned, and because I was sitting next to her and happened to look back at her, not Chris, I watched as she saw him for the first time as her son.

He must've noticed the difference in her glance, because he looked scared, unsure. 

I looked at Paige and she looked at me. We both knew that this was a private moment between mother and son, neither of us certain how they would handle it, but knowing that it was up to them to figure it out. So we stood up and walked out, me patting Piper reassuringly on the shoulder, Paige patting Chris. She headed for her room. 

Not snoopy Phoebe! I started to head towards mine, just to throw Paige off, but then after Piper led Chris into her room and closed the door, I had to quickly go stand on the other side, so I could hear what was going on.

"Why didn't you tell us?" I heard Piper ask.

Believe it or not, he actually apologized! I guess there‘s a first time for everything! “I'm sorry,. I should have,” he admitted, “but, uh, it's complicated. I didn't do much planning before coming back here. It was kind of a spur-of-the-moment decision," and I could hear the typical self-depreciative shrug in his voice. "We thought it was going to be a quick and easy thing to jump back and change little things to alter the course of history."

"How's that working out for you?" she demanded, before quickly adding, "Don't answer that; it was uncalled for. Sorry," and I grinned, knowing that like Paige and me when we first found out, she was having a hard time dealing with the difficult transition between thinking of him as a nuisance and thinking of him as a son. "Who's ‘we‘?" she asked instead.

"Well, Bianca, for one, and, well, I probably shouldn't get into the specifics."

She sighed impatiently. "This is really hard for me, Chris."

"I know. I'm sorry," and now he truly sounded contrite, and I knew that of us all, the last one he wanted to hurt was his mother.

"You have made it incredibly difficult to get to know you and even trust you!" she accused, and I couldn't disagree with her, even though I knew he had his reasons. "Tell me the truth, you were the one who sent Leo to Valhalla, weren't you?" Before he had a chance to reply, she demanded, "And the inhibitions demon, you helped him, too, didn't you?" Again, before he could say a word, she started to yell, close to screaming, pain in every word. "Why? Were you trying to punish us? What happens in the future that warrants you coming back and treating us this way? And don't even try to hand me that crap about future consequences, buster, because I've had it with that nonsense!" and I could tell she was working up a full head of steam and almost felt sorry for him, even though I knew he deserved every word.

Chris' voice was small and soft, but I could still hear his answer. "I had to get Leo out of the way so I could be assigned as your Whitelighter. I thought that would be the perfect way to be close enough to all of you to see if I could figure out who turns Wyatt. As far as the inhibitions demon goes, I'm sorry. That was a really bad mistake. I was hoping he would teach you a lesson to stop focusing on the trivial things and to start focusing on the important things like saving Wyatt -- and yourselves."

"Why do you hate Leo so much?" and I wanted to know, too. “He’s your father!”

There was a long pause this time. "Let's just say he wasn't around much in the future that I know," but somehow I didn't think he was telling the whole truth, and I wondered why not. 

C'mon, Piper, I was thinking. Give him what-for for blaming our Leo for something he never did, and for something he might never do. If he'll listen to anyone, he'll listen to you!

But Piper didn't. Unlike me, maybe she realized that he was holding some stuff back in order to protect us from information we didn't need to hear and wouldn't want to hear, and now wasn't the time to push. She was simply quiet for a very long time, before asking, "You know I'm pregnant, don't you?"

"Yeah, it's kinda weird thinking that you're pregnant with--me."

"Well, it's kinda weird for me to be thinking about that, too," she retorted, and I had to bite my tongue to hold back my giggle.

"You need some time to get used to this; so do I," and I heard the bed rustle as he must've stood up. "Thanks for talking to me--"The word "Mom" seemed to hang in the air. Then I heard him sigh as he simply finished, "Piper. Good night." Then I could hear him walking away, so I ran as quickly as I could for my own bedroom, so I wouldn't get caught snooping. 


The next evening, Paige, Piper and I were all at P3. None of us had seen Chris since the previous evening, obviously keeping his promise to give Piper time to absorb. Both Paige and I expected her to ask us something about it, but she never brought up the topic, so much as we were going nuts wanting to ask, neither did we.

As usual on the weekend, P3 was crowded with people, dancing to the great band. Both Paige and I were dancing with guys we had just met, and Piper was back behind the bar. I kept looking for Leo, wondering if Piper could really keep such a secret from him--wondering if *I* could, now that he was the only one who didn't know--but he never showed and neither did Chris. Then, while looking around for Leo, I saw Piper flinch.

Following her glance, I saw Chris making his way through the crowd towards the bar, towards her. Although I kept dancing, I slowly but surely moved towards the bar, my partner following my lead. As I did, I also kept watching Chris as he avoided colliding with several other dancing couples, his eyes never leaving Piper. I could feel the apprehension radiating off him like waves, but I could also feel it radiating off Piper. Even though I was now certain that he had also taken an empath-blocking potion, I didn't need my power to get an idea of what they were both feeling, thinking.

Glancing back at Piper, I saw her lightly touch her belly. How strange must it be to think that the man who was walking towards her was also her son, the baby who was growing inside her. He must've seen her do it, too, because when he stopped at the bar, he was hesitant, nervous, afraid. Again I didn't need my empath-powers; his eyes reflected it all. I knew she'd have to make the first move and wondered if she knew it, too. 

I shouldn't have. "Hey," she said softly.

"Hey," he returned, leaning on the counter.

"You want a drink?" she asked casually, obviously willing to pretend that everything was okay between them.

For now.

"Yeah, sure," and he seemed to perk up slightly at the gesture, glad that she seemed to be in a good mood tonight, not quite as ready to blow his head off. 

She handed him the glass of amber liquid. He took a sip. There was a moment of awkwardness before she turned to serve another customer then came back to him again, first telling her bartender to handle the customers for a while. She placed her hands on the counter top, as if bracing herself for the worse.

As she did, I slowly but surely led my partner so we were as close to them as we could be without making it *too* obvious--not that I think they would notice--the only ones they were aware of were each other. It wasn't easy to both flirt with my partner and listen to my sister and her son, especially with the loud music in the background, but somehow I managed.

"Am I -- horrible?" Piper asked hesitantly, and now I knew why she hadn't discussed it with me or Paige. "Is that why you didn't tell us, tell me?"

He inhaled sharply, obviously not quite expecting such a question from her. Neither had I. I was sure she would ask about his older brother, the future, anything but that, but knowing Piper the way I do, I shouldn't have.

Suddenly his eyes went blank, and I knew that although he had decided to answer her truthfully, he was very carefully keeping his emotions in check, and I wondered why.

"No, you're wonderful in the future," he replied with the smallest of smiles. "A great mom. The best." 

Oh, you should’ve seen the look of relief on her face, and I almost laughed, thinking about all the times she wondered if she'd turn into a dreadful mother

Then she simply asked "Why?"

"I told you yesterday," he said softly, gently, trying to dissuade her from asking any more. "I can't let you know too much about the future. It might change the timeline, for better or worse; I can't tell."

"But you came back here, to save Wyatt, to save us all. Shouldn't that have changed something in your future?"

"Maybe. Maybe not." He smiled at her sadly. "I don't know how much I've changed the timeline."

She nodded, understanding, not wanting to press him any more than necessary. But she had to know something. A lot more gently than the previous night, she admitted, "I've been thinking about it all day, all night yesterday, all day today. I still don't understand. I want to. Truly I do, but I can’t. All those lies ..."

"I had to," he said in a pained tone. "Believe me when I say that I never meant for everything to go out of control. I never wanted to hurt any one of you, especially you. I'm so sorry, Mom," and now he sounded so pitiful, so near tears, that for the first time, my heart went out to him.

She didn‘t even flinch at his using that word. Like me, her heart must‘ve gone out to him in his pain. She reached out to touch his hand. "It must have been a pretty desperate mission for you to risk everything," she said softly, newfound pride in her voice. “And it must be painful for you, too."

He looked down at the counter top, closing his eyes, now unable to hide that pain, muttering, “If you but knew.”

A firm hand cupped his chin, bringing his head back up. She was now looking at him, a myriad of emotions crossing her face. She reached up with the hand, fingertips light against his skin, almost gentle as she traced his features. From forehead down to his jawline, the bridge of his nose down to his full lips, her thumb over his eyebrow. I could tell that she could see it now, what she had never notice before. Looking at the two of them, it totally amazed me then the way it still throws me now that none of us had realized it sooner. His expression mirrored hers. The same shade of hair, the wide eyes with their conflicted emotions held in check, the facial structure, the firm chin. Only his height and his Whitelighter powers came from his father. The rest were all Halliwell.

I've wondered since then if that's part of the reason why he was such a brat before we knew who he was--if by keeping us angry and irritated at him, we never tried to find the good in him and thus never saw the Halliwell that was truly such a strong a part of him. 

We just never saw it.

But she saw it now.

She cupped his cheek with her palm in a gentle manner that shocked me and seemed to surprise even her. Very softly, very, very gently, she said his name, the name she had given him--the name she would give him. For the first time she said it as the name of the son she knew was a part of her, the name of the son she loved. And, oh, if the way she said his name didn’t bring tears to my eyes, the way he leaned into her palm with an almost sense of longing certainly did. I realized that he had been away from home far too long now, and been far too alone in a different time than his own.

I found myself desperately wanting to give him a hug.

"I'm so sorry," he whispered again, almost a whimper.

"Don't," she ordered, sounding rough. "Don't be. You don't have to be sorry for anything. Your actions justified what you believed was right, I suppose."

"Does it?" He let out a hollow laugh, pulling his cheek away from the comfort of her hand, staring down at the counter top. "You always taught me that wrong things done for the right reasons are still wrong. And look what I’ve done. I barge right into all of your lives, turn them upside down. I've lied. You’re right. I've lied to all of you every single step of the way. You’ll never be able to trust me. Never know if I’m lying or telling the truth. Just look what I’ve done! I split you and Leo apart much sooner than you should‘ve been, almost negating my own existence! I caused the death of my own fiancée! All for one lousy mission that I'm no longer sure will even succeed! I should have never come back."

"Look at me, sweetie," she said firmly, and when he did, surprise in his eyes at the endearment, she spoke even more firmly. "Desperate times call for desperate measures, and it sounds like you were desperate. You did the right thing, sweetie, you did. And you will succeed because you came here not to just save Wyatt but all of us, to save your future, our future. You’re a Halliwell.” Her face softened, a smile on her lips just for him. "And you know how we always beat the odds." 

"Yeah, I do," he whispered as for just a second or two, absolute heartbreak crossed his face as memories of his future past must've come unbidden at her words.

I realized that at some time or another, he hadn't beaten the odds. I wondered what had happened, and if that -- being a member of a family who would try anything to beat the odds, especially to beat the odds that had beaten him -- was part of his reason for coming back.

Piper must've seen that look, too. "Something happened, didn't it?" she asked, sympathy and a question in her voice.

Chris shook his head quickly as if trying to banish the thought from his mind, turning his full attention to this future version of his mother, forcing a smile on his face. And I knew that none of us would ever hear from him about that time when the Charmed Ones hadn't beaten the odds.

"Of course not," he answered glibly. "Like you said, we've always beaten the odds.."

She appeared doubtful but then nodded, as the song came to an end.

Even as we clapped, my partner must've realized that he had lost my attention, because he quickly melted away. Too bad. He was awful cute and I never did see him again. Paige's partner must've done the same thing, because she walked up to me, nodded towards the bar, and we both walked towards it, towards our sister and her future son. Paige’s eyes warned me, and she began chattering about the band, so I responded in kind--after all, the drummer was really hot and had been making eyes at me all night.

Piper noticed us, and her face lit up--she desperately wanted, needed, someone to break up the tension, and I was glad Paige and I could. Even without Paige's warning glance, I knew that we couldn't let Piper know that we had overheard her conversation with her son, and I made sure that both Paige and I were laughing as we walked up.

"Hey, you two," Paige casually greeted with a grin. "Getting acquainted, are we?" and she nudged me with a knowing wink, while I grinned back.

"So, are you two going to get along now or what?" I asked, showing I could fib as well as my future nephew.

My older sister--the most powerful of the Charmed Ones since Prue's death--smiled at us sweetly, and when she and Chris exchanged looks and small smiles, I knew Paige was right that we should let them think that what had been said between her and her future son would remain between them.

"Perhaps," Piper shrugged, acting indifferent. Then she smiled her biggest, brightest smile--one usually reserved for Leo or Wyatt--at Chris. "Let's say that we've come to an understanding," and for the first time ever around us, Chris smiled full-wattage, his smile identical to Piper's.

Even while both Paige and I inwardly marveled at the sight of those beautiful twin smiles, we put on looks that said we were vaguely disappointed at not having any more details but knew better than to press either of them for more, and again I was so glad my younger sister had figured out the right thing to do. Had to be the Whitelighter in her.

"Well, that settles it," my younger sister announced. "Why don't we have a toast?"

"Toast what?" I asked.

"Our newfound relationship with our future nephew!" Paige beamed, as she snagged a couple glasses of champagne from a passing waiter, handing one to me and one to Chris before grabbing a couple of glasses of ginger ale, giving one to Piper and keeping one for herself.

I nodded. "What do you say?" I asked them.

"Sounds fair enough," Chris shrugged as he lifted his own glass. He turned to Piper, questioningly. She gave a "Why not?" shrug and lifted her own glass, and we all clinked our glasses together before sipping.

Then Chris looked at each of us and softly said, "Thank you."

I wanted to ask, "For what?" but then I noticed that that look of bearing the world on his shoulders that was always haunting his eyes was no longer there. I thought I knew why. He knew he was no longer alone. And because he could now trust us to help him save our family, our future, he knew that what he had done in the past would stay in the past--we would be able to trust him from then on.

I wanted to say, "Welcome home!" but somehow it wasn't necessary.

He knew. 

THE END

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Esmeralda

[whateverhappened]

@Esmeralda, I really enjoyed reading that! Is there a thread for fanfic? If there isn't, I hope we're allowed to create one. I would love to see people's fics and have a place where we could bounce ideas off one another. 

@Lady Calypso, as our wonderful mod, do you happen to know if we have a fanfic thread? :) 

[whateverhappened]

 -   - I've watched more of Season 7 today and am loving it. I had only seen it once before and thought I disliked it. It seems my taste has gotten even weirder since I first saw it, because right now I am tempted to put it high on my list of favorites. 

I've also decided that Drake x Phoebe is the Charmed romantic pairing I ship the most. I have the unpopular opinion of not caring much about most of the show's other romances, but Drake is such a warm, interesting and lovable character and I love how he helps rediscover the passionate, life-loving sides of Phoebe that make her my favorite sister in those early seasons. It helps that he was gone before the writers could ruin his character or their relationship. I wish I could cast a spell over myself that would enable me to churn out quality Drake x Phoebe fanfic. :) 

I love Piper so much as a mom and often as a sister, but like others have said the dour and drab angst with Leo and the constant reminders that she hates having to be a witch can make her such a bummer. She's not so much the heart of the family to me like they call her but more like the medicine of the family- she keeps people healthy and safe and is often the cautious and competent mom who knows what's good for them, but she's also bitter and not very pleasant in large doses. :) Even early on, I don't find her warm and sympathetic, which is what I think of when I hear heart.

As I'm watching I'm thinking of how part of my Dream Charmed would include episodes back in Season 2, 3 or 4 set in an alternative universe where Piper led the normal, powerless life she always wanted. I love alternative universe episodes, and this one would have a purpose! At the end, she could choose whether to continue life as a witch or without her powers, and this time her decision wouldn't have to be contingent on what her sisters want. I'm thinking of two possible end results. The first would be to realize that no one's life is truly normal or without obstacles and that her powers can be blessings she learns to embrace. She's still Piper, so she'd still be neurotic and stressed for a lot of the show, but it's more sympathetic and endearing when she's fretful and snappish because she's concerned about her sisters or her kids, not when we have to hear in almost every episode about how much she resents not getting to lead a normal and traditional life.

The second possible outcome to that alternative universe episode I'm envisioning would be that Piper chooses to keep leading her normal life while Phoebe and Paige continue as the power of two. That would be contrived, but a lot of the rules about how magic works in this universe are contrived, so I'd eventually accept whatever reason they gave for why the power of two was suddenly sufficient. Piper would still be in their lives as a sister, but hopefully we would get to see her happier and more enjoyable to be around. It could be interesting to see a dynamic where one sister was no longer a witch. Would the other two resent her? Would Piper feel like they were now bonded in a way she didn't share? Would she regret her decision to give up her powers? Would Piper's perception of life as a normal person be different now that she's seen and gone through so much as a witch? 

And my Dream Charmed now also includes a lot more Drake and a lot less of Phoebe's other love interests. 

[Esmeralda]

9 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

@Esmeralda, I really enjoyed reading that! Is there a thread for fanfic? If there isn't, I hope we're allowed to create one. I would love to see people's fics and have a place where we could bounce ideas off one another. 

@Lady Calypso, as our wonderful mod, do you happen to know if we have a fanfic thread? :) 

@WHATEVERHAPPENED, I'm *so* glad you liked my story!

@LADY CALYPSO, I would *so* love a fanfic thread!  There are so many wonderful fanfics I'd love to share!  If we can't do that, I'll post the links to some of my favorites at fanfiction.net.

[whateverhappened]

@Esmeralda, I really did love it and have been thinking about it while I watch! We just posted at about the same time by the way, so I initially missed your post. 

[Esmeralda]

Quote

-   - I've watched more of Season 7 today and am loving it. I had only seen it once before and thought I disliked it. It seems my taste has gotten even weirder since I first saw it, because right now I am tempted to put it high on my list of favorites. 

I would if I could take out the avatar storyline - just don't like that one single bit! I prefer the avatars in Season Five and wish these were more like them.  The whole idea of Utopia is more like "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World" than Heaven on Earth, which Utopia is supposed to be like.

Quote

I've also decided that Drake x Phoebe is the Charmed romantic pairing I ship the most. I have the unpopular opinion of not caring much about most of the show's other romances, but Drake is such a warm, interesting and lovable character and I love how he helps rediscover the passionate, life-loving sides of Phoebe that make her my favorite sister in those early seasons. It helps that he was gone before the writers could ruin his character or their relationship. I wish I could cast a spell over myself that would enable me to churn out quality Drake x Phoebe fanfic. :) 

I agree with you TOTALLY!! I *so* love how we got to see my Phoebs again, my favorite character, the first time since 'Sleuthing with the Enemy' and the last time in the series. I *so* wish he could've stayed and been the one she ended up with.  Does anyone else wish Cole had been a lot more like Drake?

Quote

I love Piper so much as a mom and often as a sister, but like others have said the dour and drab angst with Leo and the constant reminders that she hates having to be a witch can make her such a bummer. She's not so much the heart of the family to me like they call her but more like the medicine of the family- she keeps people healthy and safe and is often the cautious and competent mom who knows what's good for them, but she's also bitter and not very pleasant in large doses. :) Even early on, I don't find her warm and sympathetic, which is what I think of when I hear heart.

Wow!  This is the best description of Piper I've ever read!  Except I don't even like her as a mother.  The way she didn't bind her sons' powers like Grams bound theirs so they could have the normal life she always wants (remember that despite Grams and Patty being witches, as long as the girls' powers were bound, they were off Evil's radar...) and the way she kept shoving them off on her non-magical grandfather...no, I'm afraid I count her as a crappy wife and crappy mother.  She's *so* the one who should've never gotten married despite them making her out to be the romantic of the group later on.  I wish they would've made that Phoebe and made Piper whatever Phoebe was movie-wise - it would've fit her better.

Quote

As I'm watching I'm thinking of how part of my Dream Charmed would include episodes back in Season 2, 3 or 4 set in an alternative universe where Piper led the normal, powerless life she always wanted. I love alternative universe episodes, and this one would have a purpose! At the end, she could choose whether to continue life as a witch or without her powers, and this time her decision wouldn't have to be contingent on what her sisters want. I'm thinking of two possible end results. The first would be to realize that no one's life is truly normal or without obstacles and that her powers can be blessings she learns to embrace. She's still Piper, so she'd still be neurotic and stressed for a lot of the show, but it's more sympathetic and endearing when she's fretful and snappish because she's concerned about her sisters or her kids, not when we have to hear in almost every episode about how much she resents not getting to lead a normal and traditional life.

OOO!  I'm *so* happy that my own Dream Charmed has gotten you to thinking about your own!  And I totally LOVE this!  Great job!

Your alternate universe with Piper is reminding me of a scene from one of my all-time favorite stories (partially coz it was written for me as a Christmas-in-July present...), Justro's fantastic "A Halliwell Christmas Carol":

Quote

 

Chapter Two

The face in the wreath sighed a mournful sigh. ‘You do know me’, Cole said. ‘Piper, I bring you a warning’.

‘No, no, hang on’ Piper objected. She felt dreadful, and she did not feel able to cope with talking holly wreaths, especially ones that appeared to be haunted by her ex-brother-in-law- ex-Source-ex-unvanquishable-half-demon. ‘Why would you be appearing to me? That makes no sense! Besides, I’m ill!’.

‘I bring you a warning Pipppppperrrrrrrrr’ Cole gloomily uttered the words, ending with another big sigh. 

Piper sat up, annoyed now. ‘No’ she told him firmly. 'You bring Phoebe a warning! Not me! Phoebe. She’s the one you married! She’s the one you’re obsessed with! Now, go haunt her and leave me alone to..to….get back to the bathroom! And no more bell-ringing!’ And with that, she hauled herself to her feet, and marched as steadily as she could back into the house, slamming the door shut behind her.

Making her way upstairs again, she clutched onto the banister as the world moved around her. It was the worst seasick feeling she’d ever felt, and that included when she had had Arroyo fever. She got to the toilet just in time. With her head in the bowl she heard a rustle and clanking noise behind her. ‘Leo, is that you? Please can you heal me?’ she pleaded ‘I feel like I’m dying! I don’t care if it’s personal gain or not!’.

‘Ppppiiiiiippppeeeerrrrrr’

Piper closed her eyes and rested her head against the cool tiles of the bathroom wall. ‘Not this again,’she muttered. She turned round. Cole – or the apparition of Cole – was standing in front of her, dressed in a sharp suit, neat tie and clean shirt. He was draped in chains, which clanked with every movement.

‘A warning, Piiipeerrr!’ he began again.

‘Look. Just go away. I don’t need this! I’m ill!’. Piper started to snap at him, but it came out as a whimper. ‘It’s not me you want anyway. It’s Phoebe! Second door on the left – you know where her room is! Now leave me alone!’.

‘My message is for YOU, Piiipeerr’, Cole sighed, moaned and clanked his chains.

Piper clutched her throbbing head – the clanking noise made it ache more if such a thing was possible. ‘Will you stop with the noise? Please!’ she begged Cole ‘Why are you wearing those chains anyway? Oh my head’ she clutched her tummy ‘My tummy! Eeeuurrrghghghhg’.

‘These are the chains of guilt and remorse’ he sighed gloomily and clanked a bit more. ‘I am condemned to wear them for all eternity, as a constant reminder of the innocent lives I took as a demon, and as a reminder of the innocents I could have helped save when I had powers and was supposed to be good’ Cole passed her a washcloth soaked in cold water. ‘I have a message for you, Piper’ he whispered in her ear ‘Accept your destiny as a witch! Use your powers for good and start helping innocents again!’

Piper raised her head from the toilet bowl. ‘I’m throwing my guts up and you’re here lecturing me – wait – daring to lecture ME about saving innocents?’. She managed a glare. ‘How dare you, Cole! I’ve saved more innocents than you’ve had..’ she paused. She wanted to say ‘hot dinners’ but the mere thought of the word ‘dinner’ made her queasy again. Besides, Cole was an 100-something-year-old demon, there wasn’t much he wouldn’t have had more of. ‘Um…evil , source- possessed, devil babies’ she finished feebly, but knowing that this had only happened once.

Cole smirked. ‘Well, that’s true, but I’ve only fathered one of those’ he said, clanking as he replied. ‘I’ll agree that you’ve saved more than one innocent.’ He leaned towards her, his face looming large. ‘But how many have you saved since your son came back from the future? You haven’t done anything but concentrate on finding out who turned your other son evil. You haven’t worried about others outside your own family at all! You have powers. You are a Charmed One. You should be saving many more innocents! It is your destiny!’.

‘Can’t I have at least a speck of a normal life?’ Piper asked. “Is that too much to ask for?’

‘Piper Halliwell’, he boomed ‘ You will never have a normal life. You are a WITCH!’. 

Piper gagged a little at just the thought of never having a normal life. And that just made her sick again.

Once she raised her head from the toilet, Cole leaned in towards her again. ‘Tonight you will be visited by three more ghosts’ he whispered.

‘“I would really rather not.’ Piper groaned. ‘Can’t they come when I feel better?’.

‘Expect the first tomorrow when the clock tolls one; the second on the stroke of two and the third at three o’clock’. Cole warned, clanking around.

“Can’t I have all three at once and get it over with?” groaned Piper from the floor.

“Expect the first at one!” cried Cole ‘Heed my words! And give my love to Phoebe!’, and with much clanking and clinking, Cole disappeared.

‘Just what I need’. muttered Piper, head down the toilet again.

Suddenly she found herself opening her eyes, sobbing on the bathroom floor. She couldn’t understand why Leo hadn’t come to help her, or why all the disturbances hadn’t woken anyone else up. She felt worse than ever and decided that she was too ill to even think about cleaning up the mess in the bathroom.

She heard a muffled ‘Bong’ of the grandfather clock. What was it that ghostly Cole had said? ‘Expect the first tonight when the clock tolls one’. 

Wait, it couldn’t have been a real ghost. Piper shrugged. She’d met ghosts before and she knew a real one when she saw one! ‘I must be running a fever’, she decided. ‘Leo!’ she called, ‘Leo?’.

A bright light appeared behind the shower doors. ‘Leo?’ asked Piper, squinting her eyes at the brightness of it. The lights appeared to coalesce into a human form behind the shower. ‘Oh, thank goodness’, whispered Piper, relieved that Leo had arrived at last. 

The shower door opened and out stepped a young woman, dressed in a black silk dress, with short skirt slit at the side and a pair of stylish heels. Diamond earings hung from her ears, her black hair was cut in a glossy bob and in her hand she held a branch of holly.

Piper gasped. ‘Prue?’ she asked in amazement ‘Prue? Is that really you?’.

The woman looked down at her and smiled. ‘Got it in one, Piper’. She looked around the bathroom, ‘Look at the state of this place! Look at the state of you!’.

Piper groaned on the floor. ‘I know, I know…but I’m ill, pregnant….’ She paused. ‘You can’t be the ghost Cole told me about?’

“I am.” Prue looked directly at her “I am the Ghost of Christmas Past.”

‘Oh, bah, freakin’ humbug!’. Piper retorted. ‘Look Prue, I’m happy to see you, but really – I’m not in a fit state to be talking to Ghosts – sister or not – and I’m not interested in talking about Christmas! Not in the middle of freakin’ July! Why are you here anyway?’.

She felt Prue suddenly beside her on the floor. ‘Tonight I am the Spirit of Christmas Past, Piper. Your past! I’m here for your own good. If I play this part well, I might just get to come down for the real Christmas! So let’s see what we can learn, together.’ Prue stood up. ‘Snap out of it, Piper and let's go’.

‘But..but…’Piper wailed ‘I’m not well. I can’t leave Wyatt in the middle of the night! Come back later when I feel better; I think sleep would be best for me right now. And…’.

Prue silenced her with a look. ‘Take my hand’ she commanded.

Piper gave in and took her hand. Prue waved her holly branch and a thick fog enveloped them and Piper felt as if she were flying. Prue waved her holly branch and the fog began to dissolve, leaving the two standing by a Christmas tree, much like the one currently standing in the bay window of the manor.

Piper looked around in astonishment. ‘It’s the manor – when we were kids!’ she cried gleefully. ‘Prue – look!’, and she ran to where wrapped gifts lay in a heap at the side of the tree. Stockings were hung by the chimney with care, each with a name embroidered on them - ‘Prue’, ‘Piper’ and ‘Phoebe’. 

‘Do you recognise this?’ asked Prue.

‘Oh yes’ cried Piper, but then her excitement suddenly gave way to sadness. ‘This is the first Christmas without Mom!’. She looked at Prue, tears springing to her eyes. ‘Why have you brought me here? I’ve got enough troubles in my life without bringing back bad memories!’ She glared at Prue. ‘Just seeing you is bad enough – do you know how long it's taken me to be able to deal with being without you?’

Piper was about to launch into a full-scale whine-a-thon when she heard the noise of sobbing. ‘Who is that?’ she asked.

‘Let’s find out,’. Prue suggested and she led Piper through to the kitchen where they found Grams comforting a young child.

‘Here’s some hot chocolate, and a hanky’ said Grams to the sobbing Piper, wiping away her tears.

‘Cinnamon, no marshmallow’ sobbed young Piper, followed by a wail ‘ I miss her so much, Grams, I want her back!’.

‘Now, sweetie’, said Grams softly, cuddling the child as she sat on the counter top. ‘Mommy has had to go, but you’ve got your sisters and me. And we’ll all make things as good as we can – as normal as we can! . And it’s Christmas, Piper, such a happy time. Your Mom always loved Christmas’. She kissed young Piper’s head as the child snuggled into her shoulder.

Piper looked at Prue. ‘She’s right, you know. Mom did love Christmas. Just like Dad did when he was around. I’m guessing that he’s the one who made sure we celebrated, even though Mom was Wiccan. Even after he was gone, she made sure we celebrated it every year. And after she was gone, then Grams made sure that we had happy ones.’

‘I remember sneaking down the stairs, watching her make those stockings for us’ Prue smiled back ‘She sat up late one Christmas Eve, sewing our names on them, trying to finish it all in time’. 

There was a noise in the hallway. Grams stood up. ‘Stay here and drink your hot chocolate’ she instructed the young girl, and she went out to the hallway.

‘What’s happening?’ whispered Piper to Prue , ‘I don’t remember this’. 

‘Let’s see’ said Prue, and they followed Grams out to the hallway.

Grams stood with her back to them, facing an ugly, wizened, bright blue demon. ‘Give them to me’ it was growling at Grams.

Piper instinctively threw up her hands to freeze or explode him.

‘It won’t work’ Prue warned Piper. ‘These are but shadows of what was. They cannot hear or see us, and we cannot influence them’.

‘No!’ replied Grams firmly ‘They may have lost their mother, but they won’t be losing anything else! Besides, they have no powers now’. She sighed. ‘And it’s Christmas!’

‘Foolish old witch!’ the demon snarled, ‘Christmas has no meaning for demons! And I mean to acquire those powers!’. 

‘What kind of demon is it?’ hissed Piper to Prue. 

‘It’s an Eb’nezer Demon – has the power to acquire and then hoard powers. They don’t really like to use them though, just…..keep them’. Prue looked at her sister ‘They’re odd little demons. Never really achieve much despite acquiring power after power’. 

Grams sighed. ‘I didn’t want to have to vanquish anything on Christmas Eve and risk upsetting the girls’.

‘Give me their powers and you won't have to!’ snarled the demon

Grams glared and raised her arms as she began to chant:

'Even though it’s Christmas night, 
Make this demon leave my sight’

And with a wave of her hands, the demon disappeared, leaving nothing but a bad smell.

‘Graaaaaaaaaaaams’ a wail came from the kitchen. 

‘I’m coming dear’, Grams called back, running back into the kitchen.

Prue and Piper watched her go. ‘I don’t remember that’ Piper said slowly. 

‘Oh, she was always vanquishing demons and defending innocents when we were kids’, Prue informed her. ‘We just didn’t notice. She was careful to ensure we had as normal a life as we could, considering we had no mother or father, and lived with our grandmother.. Grams saw to it that we ate well, went to school, had friends and all the time she was out there, protecting us, protecting innocents, doing her best to defend the world against evil’.

Piper looked at the floor.

‘And she did it without any help‘ Prue continued relentlessly. ‘She had no angelic husband. No sisters that she could call upon. She could only share some of her duties with her coven’.

Piper looked defiantly at Prue. ‘I do my best’ she began. ‘It’s so hard running a business and having kids and magical duties. And Leo’s away so much and I have to do it all myself….’.

Prue put her hands on her hips as she rolled her eyes. ‘Oh, boo hoo hoo!’ she snarked. “Let’s all feel sorry for poor, poor, pitiful Piper! You have staff who help manage P3. You have sisters who help with magical duties. You have an angelic husband who supports and guides you. P3’s doing well enough that you can afford to employ help if you needed it to help clean the manor or cook the food – but honestly, you don’t, as you prefer to whine about it!’.

‘I don’t WHINE!’ Piper whined. ‘I just want a normal life…’.

‘Forget it, Piper!’ Prue shook her head in resignation ‘You’ve never had a normal life! Ever! You’re a witch, born of witches and your destiny is Charmed! You pretend you want ‘normal’ but I don’t see you giving up your powers or trying to bind your son’s powers, the way Grams bound ours so we could have as normal of a childhood as witches could have! You marry the most unnormal man there could possibly be -- one who‘s already dead! And then you pretend to want a normal life!" Prue shook her head in disbelief. "You’ve never been ordinary, Piper, and never will be! Face up to it!’. As she was speaking, Prue became brighter and brighter till Piper had to close her eyes. ‘Truth will win out, Piper, truth will win out.’ 

And then there was silence.

Piper opened her eyes to find herself back on the floor of the bathroom, all alone, with a towel scrunched up in her hand. She dropped the towel with disgust at herself, and the mess around her, and shook her head, muttering, “A nightmare! A horrible nightmare!” 

Slowly she climbed to her feet, and berated herself, “Stupid girl! Getting yourself all worked up over nothing! Imagine seeing Prue As if Prue would ever have been snarky to me! It is all in my imagination! Imagine thinking Prue could possibly be the Ghost of Christmas Past in the middle of July! That‘s what I get for watching that Mickey Mouse movie with Wyatt!”

 

Hehehehe!  If only something like this had actually happened during Season 6....

I like this scenario better than the other one, but since it's your Dream Charmed, you get to use whichever one *you* like best!  And I've read stories where Piper is allowed to give up her powers and become mortal which lets Paige become part of the family, letting her have Piper's power to freeze, but not to explode since as a whitelighter, she's a pacifist.  Instead she can make things speed up.  So maybe you'll consider something like that.  Take away Cole and add Drake, and I think Prue, Phoebe and Paige would make a *very* good second Power of Three, especially if they don't have to lose a sister in order to get it!

 

By the way - is there any way to remove that stupid "To the top" button?  It's driving me nuts!  I want to use the slide at the right to get to the tags and instead my screen goes all the way to the top!

Edited February 11, 2017 by Esmeralda

[helenamonster]

I have an unpopular opinion regarding Drake...I saw more chemistry with him and Paige than I did with him and Phoebe. *ducks*

I'm not saying I think he and Paige should have gotten together. She was still mourning Kyle and I like that she ended up with Henry. But Billy Zane and Rose just really sparked for me. There was one moment where he told a dumb joke and she just goes, "Ba da bum bum" and my heart fluttered. I couldn't even focus on whether or not I liked him with Phoebe because I was too busy imagining him with Paige.

[Lady Calypso]

On 2/10/2017 at 8:45 PM, Esmeralda said:

@LADY CALYPSO, I would *so* love a fanfic thread!  There are so many wonderful fanfics I'd love to share!  If we can't do that, I'll post the links to some of my favorites at fanfiction.net.

Ok, so I will discuss this with the main mod of this thread! I am a very new mod here, so I'm still learning the ropes. But I'll let you folks know, though I don't see why we can't start a fanfiction thread! Maybe we can expand it to fanfiction, and other Fan Creations! 

[Esmeralda]

Oh, thank you so much, Lady C!  I'd truly appreciate that.  By the way, you seem to do a great job as a mod - I'd never guess you were new!

If the story I started or the pieces of stories I posted don't fit the rules, Lady C, and if there's a way for you to delete those, feel free.

[whateverhappened]

Quote

I have an unpopular opinion regarding Drake...I saw more chemistry with him and Paige than I did with him and Phoebe. *ducks*

No need to duck from me, even though I'm now the crazy poster who changed my pic to Drake and Phoebe. :) Tbh, Drake could have chemistry with practically anyone. You now opened the door to some very unpopular opinions I have about chemistry on this show. When you're done reading this post you all might wish PTV had a dislike button! 

I thought Piper could have had great chemistry with Cole and a more interesting connection with him than what she had with Leo or what he had with Phoebe. They could have challenged each other in a really interesting and different way. 

I love Phoebe's chemistry with Cole despite not liking certain aspects of their relationship at all by the end and love her chemistry and potential with Drake but I also thought that, of all the sisters, Phoebe had the best chemistry with Leo. If they had to link Leo romantically with one of the sisters, I'd have picked Phoebe. I actually don't think he and Piper had chemistry past S1 and found them really dull and borderline dysfunctional by the middle of the series. 

Here's a brief list of people I think Piper had or could have had more chemistry and a more interesting, lively dynamic with than she did with Leo: Mark Chao, the Season 6 fireman, Cole, Andy and even Dan. 

I like Paige x Henry but feel like Paige had even more chemistry with Kyle, even though he's a little annoying and more than a little dead. 

I don't feel like Prue x Andy had much chemistry between them and didn't feel as deep a connection as we were supposed to. I loved her chemistry with Bane. 

Someone vanquish me before I come up with even more horrible opinions! 

[Esmeralda]

Nope, I can't.  Not when I agree with you all the way, except thinking there was chemistry between Phoebe and Cole.  That I never saw at all, not when Phoebe kept trying too hard, eating his face off when she kissed him.  And maybe that's why - if she was sexually attracted to her sister's boyfriend (and I loved the chemistry between her and Leo - even when I couldn't stand her, their scenes together always made me smile), maybe that's why she fell for every guy who looked her way and then very promptly forgot them two episodes after they were gone. 

But PIPER and Cole.  Never considered that one before (prefer Prue and Cole) , and yet the more I think of it, the more I think where it could've been a lot of fun.

Thanks for suggesting it! 

[Kohola3]

I loved Piper, definitely my favorite.  That is all.

[whateverhappened]

I always thought Piper as the favorite sister was a very popular opinion! 

Quote

attracted to her sister's boyfriend (and I loved the chemistry between her and Leo -

I can never remember whether Alyssa Milano and Brian Kruase are the actors who dated in real life? That might explain some of the chemistry I see. Leo just looked happy, relaxed and a little more peppy around Phoebe. 

Another unpopular opinion that came up on another thread is that I wish Prue had stayed at Bucklands or gone into an entirely new field. I don't see her as a photographer any more than I see Piper as a nightclub owner, lol. :) 

[Esmeralda]

Yes, Alyssa and Brian dated for a short while, as did Shannen and Julian. Neither were ever serious relationships, but they did.

Funny, I do see Prue as a photographer - it was a part of her that I wished they'd seen earlier, but I liked her that way more than the Buckland's one and I really admired her when she decided to quit Buckland's - I didn't like Clare at all.

[Lady Calypso]

I'm in the same boat with the Prue not fitting as a photographer. I never quite enjoyed that path. I thought of Prue as a business woman and thought photography was a bit odd for someone like her. It felt like they decided that they wanted to steer away from Bucklands so that Prue could be a full-time witch, they went through choices, and photographer came up. 

I also wish Paige stuck with her career as a social worker. I do think having her stick with it in season 5, at least, would have been nice to see. I thought her being a social worker was a noble career and it's a career not presented much on TV. We've seen nightclub/bar owner (or at least, they used Piper's new career as a way to just have club scenes), we've seen journalism and newspaper-type jobs on TV all the time, we've seen photography/artist jobs presented on TV, we've seen teacher, but social work? Not much. Despite this opinion, I still enjoyed watching Paige's temp jobs throughout season 6 and I do appreciate that she always found a job that associated with helping others. Not like Piper's kind of sudden transition from introverted chef who had a knack for the business side of things to nightclub owner. 

And, of course, I'll always be bugged with Phoebe writing an advice column because for me, that's helping people but in a more shallow way and it can be used for fame, like they actually attempted to do several times with her. They started off right with the career, but definitely late season 5 is when I actively hated The Bay Mirror scenes. 

And yeah, I wish Quake remained a part of the show, and I wish Piper didn't own the club...at least until much later in the series. It just felt very off in terms of her character back in season 2. She really stopped cooking as much because of it and she became incredibly grumpy (more so than ever before). It's why in the finale, when the voiceovers at the end indicate that Piper opens her own restaurant, it made me sad for what we missed out on. Now that's the career I wanted Piper to eventually lead into, not a damn nightclub just so the show could get their Very Special Guests. 

[Esmeralda]

Actually where I liked Piper best was when she did catering for Quake.  That's what I always saw her doing, catering out of the Manor so she could still watch the boys while doing the cooking herself.

[blueray]

I also wish that they kept Piper a chef. They could have hand her as the lead chief of a nice (or sort of hip) restaurant. Where they have performers but she isn't the owner. Then have her take over at some point later in the show. I feel like Piper never fit into the personality of a club owner. That being said, she was mostly shown dealing with the business side of the club, so maybe someone else got her the acts? And in season 5, I think when P3 was taken over by a "hip" owner it lost what people (well at least what Paige) liked about it. So maybe P3 was actually a chill atmosphere.

[Rachael]

On 13 February 2017 at 1:57 AM, Esmeralda said:

Actually where I liked Piper best was when she did catering for Quake.  That's what I always saw her doing, catering out of the Manor so she could still watch the boys while doing the cooking herself.

I really like this idea, it would have been a great way of incorporating her profession and workplace into storylines but would bypass the constant "family emergency" issue of the sister's having 9-5 style jobs. When I re-watch season 1 I always feel nostalgic for Quake. I really enjoyed the more relaxed vibe of the restaurant/bar and it seemed like a realistic place for twenty somethings to hang out in. Quake was a lot more versatile - the sisters could go to for food, drinks, coffee etc. I also feel like Quake could lend itself to all sorts of different events - book launches, tarot card evenings, speed dating etc in a way that P3 never could. Add me to the list of people that could never really buy Piper's move into the nightclub business. I would have bought it more if they showed her having any sort of passion towards the club but she always seemed to moan about it or show a complete lack of interest. I always thought Phoebe and Paige were creative types so perhaps they missed a trick by not having the sisters take on a more active role in the business. I thought it was strange that Phoebe didn't do nightclub promotion/bar tending when she was in college in season 2 especially as that's what I thought she did a bit of in NYC? P3 became so irrelevant and it's a shame that Piper's storylines about work dried up, it would have been nice to see her realise her dream of becoming a chef in the later seasons. 

I've enjoyed reading the discussion surrounding Phoebe and Paige and the similarities between the two characters. I always wonder how the writers would have tackled this if the show was being made today. I reckon Paige's artistic streak would have been pushed a lot more and she would be a sort of San Francisco hipster type (not in a bad way). Like others have said, an only child is perhaps more similar to an older sibling and by making Paige have a slight pretentious streak (in terms of tastes, where she hangs out etc) I think she would have felt a little more like Prue. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Rachael

[blueray]

I was kind of glad that they didn't make Paige like Prue, as it was hard enough to have her replace her. I think it would have been better if Paige was more of her own character. They start off this way, but as I've said before she lost her self when she stopped being a social worker. I really wish she kept that job.

[Esmeralda]

I really wish they'd have let her be the independent Only Child she truly was instead of trying to turn her into the Baby Phoebe always should've been (none of this lollypop biz for Paige - or moving in with them much too soon, or even *her* accepting them as sisters much too soon), just like Piper should've always been the Middle Child who she truly was, always wondering what Prue would've done and always being afraid that she wasn't living up to Prue's standards, letting Prue remain the Oldest *she* always should've been, even if she was never shown.

I can see Paige calling them her half-sisters at least until Wyatt was born - then she'd want to be a full aunt - but wouldn't really have a reason for wanting to be anything but a member of the Power of Three and a friend up til then.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Esmeralda

[HunterHunted]

On 2/19/2017 at 8:37 PM, blueray said:

I was kind of glad that they didn't make Paige like Prue, as it was hard enough to have her replace her. I think it would have been better if Paige was more of her own character. They start off this way, but as I've said before she lost her self when she stopped being a social worker. I really wish she kept that job.

If they had kept Paige as a social worker we wouldn't have been blessed with all of Paige's temp job hijinks. There was no reason for that temp job nonsense when being a social worker is a job where you interact with all walks of life in all different environments. She didn't need to work at fruit packing plants and be a magician's assistant when she could have simply been providing a client assistance with some normal problem and realized that they needed magical help. I suspect that the real reason they had Paige quit was because the show was doubling down on Phoebe advice columnist and the two jobs ended up too similar for the writers to distinguish between.