Lifetime's VC Andrews Movies Topic (Flowers In The Attic, The Dollangangers, The Casteels, etc) - General Discussion

[CountryGirl]

I also wouldn't mind a Malcolm POV because I really do want to know what he knew/what he didn't know, what he felt about Corinne and his grandchildren.

This is mainly due to Olivia's POV book where she tells him that Corinne is coming home but chooses not to share the details about the children and pointedly says she knew Corinne's children would win him over immediately, especially the girls.

We have his codicil and his journal (although I suspect John Amos forged some of the entries and I have to wonder if he/Olivia didn't cook up or even Corinne herself the codicil).

[Snow Apple]

I always wanted Corrine's POV of when the children were in the attic. I imagine guilt turning into irritation even though she still loved them.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Here's a fun one I thought of.

Which character's POV book would you most have wanted to read (and see the Lifetime movie, of course, to stay on topic)?

If it's too hard to choose, then I'll allow (LOL) top 3.

1. Corinne (Dollanganger series)
2. Laura Sue (Dawn series)
3. Troy (Heaven series)

It would have been interesting to find out why the first Corinne left Garland which broke her son (along with Garland’s abuse) and started most of the horror in that family.

[CountryGirl]

9 minutes ago, qtpye said:

It would have been interesting to find out why the first Corinne left Garland which broke her son (along with Garland’s abuse) and started most of the horror in that family.

Yes, although I suppose there are those prequel Attic books but I just cannot bring myself to read them.

Hearing that Corinne I referred to herself as Scarlett O'Hara in 1890, decades before Gone with the Wind was written, was a big "nope!" for me.

[JAYJAY1979]

Jillian's POV from the Casteel series would have been good.

Grandmere or Daphne for the Landry series 

[qtpye]

17 minutes ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

Jillian's POV from the Casteel series would have been good.

Grandmere or Daphne for the Landry series 

I would love a Jillian book!

[Scarlett45]

I would have to vote:

1. Corinne (Dollanganger)

2. Fanny (Casteel)

3. Grandmere (Landry)

[CountryGirl]

Fanny's would be a hoot to read.

Jillian would be the most unreliable narrator ever but still an entertaining, if not infuriating, read.

Corinne's is one I had on my list. As we've debated before, I will always wonder when did she change regarding her children. What were her feelings about them? 

I think she started changing the moment she got the letter, telling her to come home, but that Malcom could never know and they'd have to be hidden away. I think she thought, on some level, she could work her father as she always had and maybe she could have (if Olivia's suspicions that Malcolm would fall in love with his grandchildren, especially Cathy and Carrie, were correct) if not for Olivia and her trusted lackey/cousin John Amos. But I think on some level she knew already, when the letter came, that there was no way it was going to happen like that and instead of opting to find another way for her and the children (and don't tell me neighbors wouldn't have helped and/or eventually some rich or at least comfortably well-off man would have swept her off her feet). 

The fact that she proceeded with the plan tells me so much. 

But Corinne, for all she might have seemed vapid and that there was no there there, was quite complex. There's the young woman we're introduced to in GoS, who loses two brothers with whom she is close, only to fall in love with her uncle (really half brother) and defy her family to marry him. She seems to be a loving wife and mother to Chris Sr and the children. Then we have the Corinne she became in FITA, ultimately a cold, calculated killer. In PotW, she's a wife desperate to hang onto her husband and her secrets and her fortune. Yet who breaks at the sight of seeing Chris Jr all grown up. In IFTB, she's a lonely old woman who becomes obsessed with Bart Jr as she wasn't allowed to have children with Bart Sr and yet, she also seems to miss her long-grown children, the two she has left, and she did save Cathy from the fire in the end. I would definitely want a POV for her entire life and what she was really, truly thinking, especially during the children's years in the attic.

[Scarlett45]

@CountryGirl I tend to think Corinne was a morally and emotionally weak vapid person. Yes she did have natural affection for her children when life was going well and she had Christopher, but at the end of the day her own comfort and desires would ALWAYS come before her children.

She did feel badly about that- because she knew it was wrong and she didnt deserve them, but not badly enough to actually do something about it. I think denial is a powerful thing, and when she saw Christopher all grown up, the feelings and the guilt and her reminders of Christopher Sr came rushing back. 

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

@CountryGirl I tend to think Corrine was a morally and emotionally weak vapid person. Yes she did have natural affection for her children when life was going well and she had Christopher, but at the end of the day her own comfort and desires would ALWAYS come before her children.

She did feel badly about that- because she knew it was wrong and she didnt deserve them, but not badly enough to actually do something about it. I think denial is a powerful thing, and when she saw Christopher all grown up, the feelings and the guilt and her reminders of Christopher Sr came rushing back. 

That was a great moment when Corrine mistook Christopher Jr for Senior and tried to insist to him that she didn't try to kill their kids. 

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That was a great moment when Corrine mistook Christopher Jr for Senior and tried to insist to him that she didn't try to kill their kids. 

Guilt is a POWERFUL feeling. Christopher Sr wouldve been ashamed of her. (of course)

While I do think Corinne had genuine feelings for Bart (and he for her), he wouldn't have gone near her had he known how she mistreated her children and arranged for their YEARS of abuse and neglect. 

A movie based on Garden of Shadows, with Olivia's perspective would've been fun, but there is no way they could've made Olivia sympathetic regarding the Dollanganger children. She kept them locked in the attic and STARVED THEM as punishment. Starved them. No food for a week??? poor poor kids.

[CountryGirl]

I agree that no matter her seemingly softer/conflicted moments, the Grandmother starved them, whipped them, drugged Cathy, put tar in her air, slapped Cory, picked Carrie up by her hair - I could go on and on.

[Snow Apple]

I think Olivia is such an interesting character. She locks up the children, torture, and starve them. And yet she gives them an amaryllis plant. I also suspect Carrie's Christmas doll house was from her and not from Corrine. She claims to hate the children but didn't take it away from Carrie. The cradle went missing but Cathy found it back in the doll house when she went back as an adult. Why?

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

I think Olivia is such an interesting character. She locks up the children, torture, and starve them. And yet she gives them an amaryllis plant. I also suspect Carrie's Christmas doll house was from her and not from Corrine. She claims to hate the children but didn't take it away from Carrie. The cradle went missing but Cathy found it back in the doll house when she went back as an adult. Why?

Abusers arent cruel 24/7/365. Many people abuse their own children, but buy them lovely presents, pay for their educations, tell people they are proud of them etc. I think Olivia was twisted, but like Corinne, she knew what she was doing was wrong (hence the moments of kindness).

Grandmere (Landry series) wouldve been such a great character to find out about. What attracted her to Grandpere? Was he ever decent? Did she ever want to leave the bayou? How did she feel when Gabrielle died and she had to raise baby Ruby alone?

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

@CountryGirl I tend to think Corinne was a morally and emotionally weak vapid person. Yes she did have natural affection for her children when life was going well and she had Christopher, but at the end of the day her own comfort and desires would ALWAYS come before her children.

She did feel badly about that- because she knew it was wrong and she didnt deserve them, but not badly enough to actually do something about it. I think denial is a powerful thing, and when she saw Christopher all grown up, the feelings and the guilt and her reminders of Christopher Sr came rushing back. 

Yes, this was a big difference for me between Corrine and Jillian. Corrine  became horrible and weak but had a lot of complexity and guilt. Jillian basically became a cartoon for narcissism and she rarely seems to feel any guilt for the way she treated her daughter or Troy. She pretty much became an evil stepmother to Troy the way she seemed to despise that poor child.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Yes, this was a big difference for me between Corrine and Jillian. Corrine  became horrible and weak but had a lot of complexity and guilt. Jillian basically became a cartoon for narcissism and she rarely seems to feel any guilt for the way she treated her daughter or Troy. She pretty much became an evil stepmother to Troy the way she seemed to despise that poor child.

Corrine did fall in love with Christopher and wanted to marry him. They had a happy life together and happy family. Jillian did not love Cleave at all but when she got pregnant her mother helped her trap him into marriage. That was the first time she used Leigh to get what she wanted. She got it. Money and a nice life. But it wasn't enough for her. Especially when she saw all that Tony had. She wanted that. So she set out to trap Tony too. People only mattered when they could do something or get her what she wanted.  Cleave and Tony money. Her daughter? To get Cleave and Tony to marry her and a sex partner for Tony.   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Abusers arent cruel 24/7/365. Many people abuse their own children, but buy them lovely presents, pay for their educations, tell people they are proud of them etc. I think Olivia was twisted, but like Corinne, she knew what she was doing was wrong (hence the moments of kindness).

I think Olivia was very conflicted about the kids. I think part of her enjoyed keeping them locked up to punish Corinne, and I think part of Olivia had some old school morals which led her to truly believe that incest babies were evil, Satan's spawn, etc.

If you take Garden of Shadows into account (if you hate the ghostwriter and don't want to take his drivel as canon, I understand), Olivia didn't start out totally evil. She wanted a hot rich husband who loved her but by the time she first met Malcolm, she had already accepted that she would be an old spinster because she was too tall and not pretty enough for a man to want to marry. That was already a dangerous place to start from, wanting the traditional path but convincing yourself that you would never get it. Tall blonde rich Malcolm paying any attention to her was shocking enough. She couldn't believe that they had conversations, let alone that he wanted to marry her. She finally let herself believe that she could have what other women had (a husband and a marriage), which she did get, but he played her. Once they were married, he raped her and barely spoke to her or spent any time with her. He just wanted a rich woman who would inherit her daddy's money to be his household manager and baby incubator.

But amidst all that, she loved Chris Sr. and I think that's why she both loved and hated Chris Jr. She felt betrayed by Chris Sr. when he married Corinne and left. And Olivia's version of Corinne's childhood contradicts what Corinne told her kids about her parents being very religious and strict. According to Garden of Shadows, Malcolm spoiled Corinne and everyone in the family (including Olivia) adored her. Now you can chalk that up to the ghost writer not giving a shit about contradicting the original source material or Corinne exaggerating or Olivia believing that she was kind and generous to her children. Olivia's version in Garden of Shadows is that she loved Corinne and was devastated when she learned about Corinne and Chris Sr.

Olivia was awful in Flowers in the Attic, but she didn't really become cruel until Alicia got pregnant with Corinne. At that point, Olivia was fed up with Malcolm and she stopped feeling any sympathy for Alicia. She loved being the one in command of the secret baby situation and lording her power over Alicia. It's no surprise that she enjoyed repeating that scenario with Corinne's children. But before that, she wasn't shown to be mean (even when she was jealous of Alicia).

On 6/7/2021 at 11:06 AM, qtpye said:

It would have been interesting to find out why the first Corinne left Garland which broke her son (along with Garland’s abuse) and started most of the horror in that family.

According to Garden of Shadows, Corinne ran off with another man when Malcolm was only five years old. Malcolm blamed Garland for both spoiling Corinne/giving her everything she wanted and being neglectful. Malcolm said that his mother would wait for Garland when they were supposed to go out somewhere and Garland wouldn't show up because he had the date wrong in his calendar. Counterpoint: Garland said that Malcolm drove Corinne crazy, always following her around and asking her endless questions so between her husband forgetting about her and her son driving her crazy, it's not completely surprising that she eventually ran off. The painting of the blonde woman that Cathy and Chris found in the attic was Corinne. In Garden of Shadows, Olivia says that Corinne looked about 18 in the painting so she was still in her early 20s when she left.

Even though Garland clearly adored Alicia and was a ray of sunshine compared to Malcolm's gloomy ass, I could never get over the fact that he totally groomed Alicia. She said that he started coming around when she was 5 or 6, he gave her a gold bracelet when she was 12, he kissed her for the first time when she was 14, and they got married when she was 16 (and Garland was 55).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Corrine did fall in love with Christopher and wanted to marry him. They had a happy life together and happy family. Jillian did not love Cleave at all but when she got pregnant her mother helped her trap him into marriage.

I agree. Corinne and Christopher were in love and were willing to give up everything (money, their family) to be together whereas Jillian never loved Cleave. He was a convenient solution for being knocked up.

But I think there's some similarity with Corinne/Bart and Jillian/Tony. Corinne and Jillian wanted to feel worshipped and they found that in Bart and Tony. They craved that kind of adoration so much that they hid massive secrets in order to get and keep their husbands. Tony was trapped by the prenup but I never understood why Bart put up with Corinne in the later years when he was complaining about her being off at the spa and sleeping with Cathy.

Speaking of Bart, who thinks he would have left Corinne for Cathy because she was pregnant? Or do you think he would have stayed with Corinne? Bart Sr. would have been 42 when Bart Jr. was born (which would make Corinne 50).

[Scarlett45]

53 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Even though Garland clearly adored Alicia and was a ray of sunshine compared to Malcolm's gloomy ass, I could never get over the fact that he totally groomed Alicia. She said that he started coming around when she was 5 or 6, he gave her a gold bracelet when she was 12, he kissed her for the first time when she was 14, and they got married when she was 16 (and Garland was 55).

I also think Garland had a "thing" for teenage girls (by his treatment of Alicia), and once Corinne (the elder) aged out of his aged bracket I can believe he was an awful husband. Likely Corinne felt he would take care of Malcolm, but she couldn't be married to him any more so she left when she could.

43 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Speaking of Bart, who thinks he would have left Corinne for Cathy because she was pregnant? Or do you think he would have stayed with Corinne? Bart Sr. would have been 42 when Bart Jr. was born (which would make Corinne 50).

I don't think Bart would've left Corinne for Cathy. Yes men have been known to marry their mistresses, but more men have been known to have babies "on the side" (even several with their mistress) and have no intention of ever leaving their wife. I think Bart would've been glad Cathy was pregnant, but he was with Corinne for a reason, her money was a big part of that. Now had Bart learned what a horrid person Corinne was, I could see him leaving after that.... but not just the pregnancy.

I need to rewatch Petals, If There be Thorns and Seeds of Yesterday.

Is the Debeers series any good?

[CountryGirl]

I was just wondering the same thing re Bart Sr leaving Corinne. I tend to think he would have done so only after learning of Corinne’s past but not that he loved Cathy more or to legitimize their son. I also think if there hadn’t been a baby, he might have left Corinne but moved on to someone else. I don’t buy that he ever truly loved Cathy. 

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I was just wondering the same thing re Bart Sr leaving Corinne. I tend to think he would have done so only after learning of Corinne’s past but not that he loved Cathy more or to legitimize their son. I also think if there hadn’t been a baby, he might have left Corinne but moved on to someone else. I don’t buy that he ever truly loved Cathy. 

Yeah he didnt love Cathy. But had he learned Corinne was an abusive child killer, he wouldve wanted to get away from her to save his own neck. 

42 is still relatively young for men looking for a partner to have kids with- especially if he has money or is in shape (or both). He could've left Corinne and met a woman in her early 30s and had kids if he wanted them. But I think Bart wouldve been more likely to leave Corinne and find another rich widow or divorce to find his lifestyle.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Now had Bart learned what a horrid person Corinne was, I could see him leaving after that.... but not just the pregnancy.

At the end of Petals on the Wind, he found out what Corrine had done. Cathy showed up at the Foxworth Christmas party and told Bart about how Corrine kept them locked in the attic even after Malcolm died. At first Bart didn't believe her, but Cathy gave him too many details (the green dress, the swan bed, the sex book disguised as a needlepoint book in the nightstand, the safe combination that was Corrine's birthday, admitting that she stole the cash from his room that he thought the servants were taking, the codicil that said Corrine would lose her inheritance if it was ever proven that she had children from her first marriage).

Bart took Cathy and Corrine into the library to discuss it away from the party. At first Corrine denied it, even after Cathy brought up the donuts, but then Cathy whipped out the birth certificates that Corrine had sewn into the lining of their suitcase when they first came to Foxworth Hall. Bart was still defending Corrine at that point, but he asked her point blank if Cathy was her daughter and she said yes. That's when she admitted she had poisoned her children.

She and Cathy rehashed a lot of the past during this argument, all of which Bart heard. She also revealed her idiotic plan to poison the kids enough to get them sick so she could get them out of the house. Cathy asked what Corrine had done with Cory's body because she had been unable to find any record in the cemeteries or hospitals that an 8 year old boy died. Corrine said she knew she would be charged with murder so she threw the body in a ravine and covered it with leaves. Cathy said she found the other stairway and smelled something dead and rotten which she assumed was Cory's body (although would it still have been smelly after 15 years?).

Then Chris walked in and Corrine thought it was Chris Sr. so she freaked the fuck out and started screaming about how she didn't mean to kill the kids. Bart asked Chris if Corrine was his mother and if she had kept them locked in the attic for more than three years. Chris confirmed it and also told Bart that she killed Cory. Bart was going to leave Foxworth Hall with Cathy and Chris until he saw that the house was on fire. I don't necessarily know if he would have ended up divorcing Corrine and marrying Cathy if he hadn't died in the fire, but in the moment he seemed ready to leave Corrine after he found out the truth. And he REALLY wanted that baby. When he found out that Cathy was pregnant, he begged her to stay.

[JAYJAY1979]

So Garland groomed Alicia and his grandson Chris Jr groomed Cathy.

Guess abuse does pass down the family tree 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

So Garland groomed Alicia and his grandson Chris Jr groomed Cathy.

Guess abuse does pass down the family tree 

You think Chris Jr groomed Cathy? How so?

Yes he was the older brother, but minimally so (not a big gap in maturity)- they were both so damaged by the attic I always thought their feelings were mutual. 
 

I also hate the rape, HATE IT, it doesn’t fit with anything else we are shown given Chris’ character or attitude for the next four more books/movies.  

[CountryGirl]

I’m not seeing that Chris groomed Cathy either. It was their shared experience of growing up in the attic that drew them to each other and while I absolutely hate the rape, and not just because it completely went against everything we knew of Chris before or after as @Scarlett45 said, I will always believe they would have slept together - consensually - eventually. 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

So Garland groomed Alicia and his grandson Chris Jr groomed Cathy.

Guess abuse does pass down the family tree 

Chris Jr didn't groom Cathy. He did inherit Malcolm's creepy obsession with his mother. His relationship with Corrine was definitely not normal. Cathy's son Bart inherited that too. 

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Chris Jr didn't groom Cathy. He did inherit Malcolm's creepy obsession with his mother. His relationship with Corrine was definitely not normal. Cathy's son Bart inherited that too. 

I thought Chris Jr was more willing to "move on" and let Corinne go than Cathy was. I saw it as Cathy wanted revenge, and Chris was more willing to put the past behind them. Not because he thought Corinne was a great person or what she did was okay etc, but because he wanted to spend his energy on building a good life for himself. 

And after Carrie's suicide, Chris Jr didnt want the attic to "haunt" them any more.

[CountryGirl]

Thinking more about Chris and Cathy, it was more than just the confined quarters and hormones/puberty. It was their having to take on very adult roles as they shifted from being the older brother and sister to Carrie and Cory to being their pseudo-parents. 

That was the beginning of the end of their traditional sibling relationship and happened months before Cathy was in full-blown puberty. The dynamic had already changed and after what they went through, is it any wonder they became all things to each other? 

It also reminds me that I really wanted to see the movie show that moment in the book where all 4 of them are in the rocking chair and looking across at themselves in the mirror and struck by how much they (Chris and Cathy) look like parents to the twins. I also wanted a swan bed like I imagined because both the 1985 feature film and the Lifetime movie disappointed (the former on so many levels, the swan bed failure was but one). 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Thinking more about Chris and Cathy, it was more than just the confined quarters and hormones/puberty. It was their having to take on very adult roles as they shifted from being the older brother and sister to Carrie and Cory to being their pseudo-parents. 

That was the beginning of the end of their traditional sibling relationship and happened months before Cathy was in full-blown puberty. The dynamic had already changed and after what they went through, is it any wonder they became all things to each other? 

It also reminds me that I really wanted to see the movie show that moment in the book where all 4 of them are in the rocking chair and looking across at themselves in the mirror and struck by how much they (Chris and Cathy) look like parents to the twins. I also wanted a swan bed like I imagined because both the 1985 feature film and the Lifetime movie disappointed (the former on so many levels, the swan bed failure was but one). 

Oh yeah, it wasnt just the confinement and puberty.

It was the death of their father, the physical and psychological betrayal of their mother, their abuse/neglect in the attic, and their commitment to caring for the twins. After what they had been through, I could 100% understand why they would never be able to trust anyone else. 

If this had happened in real life, BEST case would've been to get them intense therapy right after their escape, and NOT have nasty ass Paul, grooming Cathy to be his sexual play thing. I know in the movies Chris did try to move on and had a fiancé- but I don't recall that from the books. Cathy had relationships with other men- all abusive (at worst) or inappropriate (at best) which we discussed above.

 

I wonder if something like this happened to Ruby in the Landry series. She loses her grandmother, finds her biological father, but he dies and her step mother was awful, she is a pregnant single mother and Buster tries to rape her. After all the loss and sorrow, I could see why she would cling to Paul Tate (who did love her and could financially provide for her), just for the mental and physical safety after so much sorrow and upheaval. 

[CountryGirl]

In the books, Chris sleeps with Yolanda (another ballerina in Madame Zolta's company) a few times but it seems it's designed to make Cathy jealous (Julian was sleeping with her as well). 

If he had other flings, relationships, etc., it's not in the books.

That's a very interesting and compelling take on Ruby and Paul and makes perfect sense. Other than her Grandmere, Paul was the only person who was truly there for Ruby. 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

That's a very interesting and compelling take on Ruby and Paul and makes perfect sense. Other than her Grandmere, Paul was the only person who was truly there for Ruby. 

I mean Ruby had been THROUGH IT, not locked in an attic of course, but still she had been traumatized! Losing Grandmere, and then her biological father right after finding him, being pregnant, the end of the relationship with Beau and then Buster trying to rape her AGAIN. I wouldve been absolutely terrified after all of that.

And she is still a young girl at this point, wasnt she only 18 and Paul maybe 21? Now you cant marry your brother (obviously), but Paul DID really love and care for Ruby (and Pearl)- I am sure being with him was emotionally peaceful. 

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Thinking more about Chris and Cathy, it was more than just the confined quarters and hormones/puberty. It was their having to take on very adult roles as they shifted from being the older brother and sister to Carrie and Cory to being their pseudo-parents. 

That was the beginning of the end of their traditional sibling relationship and happened months before Cathy was in full-blown puberty. The dynamic had already changed and after what they went through, is it any wonder they became all things to each other? 

It also reminds me that I really wanted to see the movie show that moment in the book where all 4 of them are in the rocking chair and looking across at themselves in the mirror and struck by how much they (Chris and Cathy) look like parents to the twins. I also wanted a swan bed like I imagined because both the 1985 feature film and the Lifetime movie disappointed (the former on so many levels, the swan bed failure was but one). 

 

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh yeah, it wasnt just the confinement and puberty.

It was the death of their father, the physical and psychological betrayal of their mother, their abuse/neglect in the attic, and their commitment to caring for the twins. After what they had been through, I could 100% understand why they would never be able to trust anyone else. 

If this had happened in real life, BEST case would've been to get them intense therapy right after their escape, and NOT have nasty ass Paul, grooming Cathy to be his sexual play thing. I know in the movies Chris did try to move on and had a fiancé- but I don't recall that from the books. Cathy had relationships with other men- all abusive (at worst) or inappropriate (at best) which we discussed above.

 

I wonder if something like this happened to Ruby in the Landry series. She loses her grandmother, finds her biological father, but he dies and her step mother was awful, she is a pregnant single mother and Buster tries to rape her. After all the loss and sorrow, I could see why she would cling to Paul Tate (who did love her and could financially provide for her), just for the mental and physical safety after so much sorrow and upheaval. 

Oh yes, if Corrine had been strong and refused the fucked up grandparents awful terms, I think Chris and Cathy would have been normal siblings.

I imagine they would struggle financially but eventually Corrine would find a sugar daddy or marry a rich man. Both she and Cathy were supposed to be amazingly beautiful and no man could resist them so it was possible in the world of the book.

It was also fiction but in Mad Men, Betty was able to find a handsome rich caring older man to take care of her and her 3 children, after she left cheating Don.

Heck, in the Casteel series, Tony went after an already married older woman with a child because she was so beautiful “he just had to have her”.

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Oh yes, if Corrine had been strong and refused the fucked up grandparents awful terms, I think Chris and Cathy would have been normal siblings.

I imagine they would struggle financially but eventually Corrine would find a sugar daddy or marry a rich man. Both she and Cathy were supposed to be amazingly beautiful and no man could resist them so it was possible in the world of the book.

It was also fiction but in Mad Men, Betty was able to find a handsome rich caring older man to take care of her and her 3 children, after she left cheating Don.

Heck, in the Casteel series, Tony went after an already married older woman with a child because she was so beautiful “he just had to have her”.

Corinne absolutely could've found a rich man to marry her- maybe even an older, attractive one who's first wife had died and wanted a younger trophy wife. Providing for her 4 children wouldn't have been an issue.

I am sure her family had someone in their social circle they could've introduced her to who would've done that.

 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I thought Chris Jr was more willing to "move on" and let Corinne go than Cathy was. I saw it as Cathy wanted revenge, and Chris was more willing to put the past behind them. Not because he thought Corinne was a great person or what she did was okay etc, but because he wanted to spend his energy on building a good life for himself. 

And after Carrie's suicide, Chris Jr didnt want the attic to "haunt" them any more.

I don't think that's it. Chris Jr and Corrine had an odd relationship. He always seemed way to into her. There's that one scene in the book where Corrine brings him against her breasts. He's a teenager. She knew how to maniuplate him. He defended her the most and was the last hold out that Corrine hadn't changed. It wasn't until Cory died that he finally realized they had to get out of there. Cathy had been wanting to a lot longer.  But he still had hope for Corrine even when it was clear she didn't care about them. After they leave I don't think that he so much moved on as he still loved Corrine and couldn't ever really confront her about what she did. He was never really pissed at her for what she did. Cathy was. She wanted revenge. She was angry about what happened and wanted their mother to pay in some way. She wanted revenge for what was done to her and her siblings. Which is natural reaction. Carrie was taumatized and scared but as it turned out she still wanted her mother to acknowledge her. When she didn't it devastated her. Her reaction also makes sense. But Chris? He didn't do any of that. He didn't want to talk about their mother. He wanted Cathy to let it go. But we never really see him angry, fearful or have any negative reaction against Corrine.  

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Corinne absolutely could've found a rich man to marry her- maybe even an older, attractive one who's first wife had died and wanted a younger trophy wife. Providing for her 4 children wouldn't have been an issue.

I am sure her family had someone in their social circle they could've introduced her to who would've done that.

 

She easily could have done that. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

37 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

 But Chris? He didn't do any of that. He didn't want to talk about their mother. He wanted Cathy to let it go. But we never really see him angry, fearful or have any negative reaction against Corrine.  

I think this is partially rooted in what Cathy realized in one of the earlier books (I'm 99% sure it was Petals on the Wind but it was also mentioned a little in Flowers in the Attic) - Chris had no problem admitting that he loved Cathy and that she was the only one he could ever truly love because of what they'd been through, but because Cathy looked so much like Corrine, he had to keep loving Corrine a little bit because he saw her face when he looked at Cathy. It's like that episode of Friends where Sean Penn breaks up with Ursula and then starts dating Phoebe. He is still furious at Ursula for lying to him so every time he looks at Phoebe, he sees Ursula and the anger comes back. He couldn't hate Corrine and simultaneously love Cathy for that reason.

In addition, Chris was always described as the optimist while Cathy was the pessimist, so I think in general he would be more apt to let things go and want to believe the best in a person while Cathy was the one who would stew in her anger and then lash out. At the end of Petals on the Wind when Corrine admits that she poisoned the kids, Chris said that once they left Foxworth Hall, he didn't want to believe that she would do such a thing.

I agree that Chris and Cathy's relationship only developed into what it became because they were in the attic with the twins. Before that, Cathy said Chris was just her annoying older brother. But once they realized that they were responsible for keeping Carrie and Cory alive, their relationship changed. I think that if Carrie and Cory hadn't been born and only Cathy and Chris had been locked in the attic, they would have come out damaged but not as crazy codependent on each other as they ended up. They still would have been traumatized by (1) being locked up (2) abused by the grandmother (3) abandoned by their mother (4) betrayed by their mother, but I truly believe that if had been just the two of them, they would have come out with PTSD and then gone on with their lives. It was knowing that Cory and Carrie needed them in order to survive that really changed their relationship. If not for that, I think that Chris wouldn't have looked as Cathy as anything but his sister.

[CountryGirl]

I also think Chris kept the faith and the love where Corinne was concerned because he couldn't allow himself to go to a place where a mother could be so horrific to her own children. I think the same part of him that compartmentalized Cathy as his sister did so with Corinne's true nature.

I think he always held out hope for her and in the end was proven there was good in her still when she saved Cathy from the fire. Which was a drop in the ocean, but she did save her daughter's life when she could have taken her usual route of self-preservation.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

In addition, Chris was always described as the optimist while Cathy was the pessimist, so I think in general he would be more apt to let things go and want to believe the best in a person while Cathy was the one who would stew in her anger and then lash out. At the end of Petals on the Wind when Corrine admits that she poisoned the kids, Chris said that once they left Foxworth Hall, he didn't want to believe that she would do such a thing.

I agree that Chris and Cathy's relationship only developed into what it became because they were in the attic with the twins. Before that, Cathy said Chris was just her annoying older brother. But once they realized that they were responsible for keeping Carrie and Cory alive, their relationship changed. I think that if Carrie and Cory hadn't been born and only Cathy and Chris had been locked in the attic, they would have come out damaged but not as crazy codependent on each other as they ended up. They still would have been traumatized by (1) being locked up (2) abused by the grandmother (3) abandoned by their mother (4) betrayed by their mother, but I truly believe that if had been just the two of them, they would have come out with PTSD and then gone on with their lives. It was knowing that Cory and Carrie needed them in order to survive that really changed their relationship. If not for that, I think that Chris wouldn't have looked as Cathy as anything but his sister.

I saw it this way as well. 

I also think that Cathy felt more betrayed by Corinne as her same gender parent, where as Chris wanted to believe the best about Corinne until the very last second. Chris never had to deal with the psychological fear of "becoming like Corinne" because he was male, and he had the memories of life with Chris Sr, and that person to emulate. By all accounts Chris Sr was a loving father and he died in a tragic accident- he didnt do anything wrong.

Cathy on the other had, had to step up for Corinne and "Mother" the twins, and continue to Mother Carrie after they left the attic. I am sure as a woman, and then a woman who became a mother herself (first as a surrogate mother to Carrie and then a biological mother to Jory), she had an extra layer of hatred towards Corinne because she knew she could NEVER do such a thing to her kids. After Carrie's suicide that was the last straw for Cathy. Of course I believe Chris mourned Carrie and grieved her loss, but it didnt effect him the way it effected Cathy.

Gender roles and expectations also play into this.

45 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I also think Chris kept the faith and the love where Corinne was concerned because he couldn't allow himself to go to a place where a mother could be so horrific to her own children. I think the same part of him that compartmentalized Cathy as his sister did so with Corinne's true nature.

I agree with this.

[andromeda331]

55 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I saw it this way as well. 

I also think that Cathy felt more betrayed by Corinne as her same gender parent, where as Chris wanted to believe the best about Corinne until the very last second. Chris never had to deal with the psychological fear of "becoming like Corinne" because he was male, and he had the memories of life with Chris Sr, and that person to emulate. By all accounts Chris Sr was a loving father and he died in a tragic accident- he didnt do anything wrong.

Cathy on the other had, had to step up for Corinne and "Mother" the twins, and continue to Mother Carrie after they left the attic. I am sure as a woman, and then a woman who became a mother herself (first as a surrogate mother to Carrie and then a biological mother to Jory), she had an extra layer of hatred towards Corinne because she knew she could NEVER do such a thing to her kids. After Carrie's suicide that was the last straw for Cathy. Of course I believe Chris mourned Carrie and grieved her loss, but it didnt effect him the way it effected Cathy.

Gender roles and expectations also play into this.

I agree with this.

 

That makes sense. Cathy is really afraid of being like Corrine. Which makes sense. Corrine started out a really good mom but changed. That would scare anyone. But at the same time the only example she had was Corrine. PitW she goes back and forth about her sex appeal. One hand she likes but then worries she's like Corrine. She wants to be a good mom but its always terrified she'll end up just like Corrine. Chris Jr doesn't have that. I don't really think he understands that part at all. 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That makes sense. Cathy is really afraid of being like Corrine. Which makes sense. Corrine started out a really good mom but changed. That would scare anyone. But at the same time the only example she had was Corrine. PitW she goes back and forth about her sex appeal. One hand she likes but then worries she's like Corrine. She wants to be a good mom but its always terrified she'll end up just like Corrine. Chris Jr doesn't have that. I don't really think he understands that part at all. 

Yes. Given that Cathy was 12 when they entered the attack (and Chris was 13 right?), she has a LOT of memories of Corinne being a loving mom, flawed yes, but Cathy and Chris had nothing but good memories of their life before the attic. 

I could certainly see her being afraid of ending up like Corinne, especially when she looked just like her. There was nothing wrong with Cathy enjoying being beautiful and desirable, but can see how in the way "absolute power corrupts", "vanity destroys".

It also didnt help that after they got out of the attic, Cathy never had a stable mother figure.  Just creepy fucking Paul who was grooming her. Chris could look to Paul regarding how to behave as a man (he didnt know about the grooming at first, as he was away at school), and Paul did take them in and educate them, I could see Chris looking up to Paul (as a same gender caregiver), who did Cathy have to look up to?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Given that Cathy was 12 when they entered the attack (and Chris was 13 right?)

Cathy was 12 and Chris was 14 when they went to Foxworth Hall. One of the previous times that I re-read the books, I made a timeline of all the birthdays and other dates because it always drove me crazy that the ghost writer clearly contradicted some of the ages and info from the earlier books. Cathy and Chris Sr. were both born in April. Chris Sr. died on his 36th birthday. Corrine took the kids to Foxworth Hall in June, so Cathy was 12 years and 2 months. Cathy mentions that Chris Jr. was 2 years and 5 months older and that his birthday was in November. He was 14 years and 7 months when they got to Foxworth Hall.

[Snow Apple]

Although I usually don't like major changes from book to screen, they made the right decision to remove Paul from the movie other than a few lines that he took the children in. It's too problematic even with all the other taboo subjects they kept. He's supposed to be a "good" guy so how is the audience supposed to watch him with 16 year old Cathy?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Cathy is really afraid of being like Corrine. Which makes sense. Corrine started out a really good mom but changed. That would scare anyone. But at the same time the only example she had was Corrine. PitW she goes back and forth about her sex appeal. One hand she likes but then worries she's like Corrine. She wants to be a good mom but its always terrified she'll end up just like Corrine. Chris Jr doesn't have that. I don't really think he understands that part at all. 

ITA that there is an extra level of Cathy's love/hate with Corrine that Chris just doesn't have. He never feared that he would turn into Corrine and abandon the people who loved him the most. Despite everything Corrine did, part of Cathy still loved her mother and wanted her love and approval just as much as Carrie did. Cathy just hid it better beneath all of her anger and plans for revenge. But she grew up envying her mother's beauty and body so once she hit her teen years, she was both happy and repulsed by how much she resembled the mother she once admired. Every time she looked in the mirror, it was a reminder that she was physically turning into her mother so constantly told her self that she would never turn into Corrine in all of the negative ways. The irony is that she did become like her mother. When her kids were born, Cathy promised that she would never let them feel neglected or unloved and then she proceeded to do exactly that with Bart. It was much less overt than the way Corrine made Cathy feel neglected and unloved, but it still happened.

[andromeda331]

 

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. Given that Cathy was 12 when they entered the attack (and Chris was 13 right?), she has a LOT of memories of Corinne being a loving mom, flawed yes, but Cathy and Chris had nothing but good memories of their life before the attic. 

I could certainly see her being afraid of ending up like Corinne, especially when she looked just like her. There was nothing wrong with Cathy enjoying being beautiful and desirable, but can see how in the way "absolute power corrupts", "vanity destroys".

It also didnt help that after they got out of the attic, Cathy never had a stable mother figure.  Just creepy fucking Paul who was grooming her. Chris could look to Paul regarding how to behave as a man (he didnt know about the grooming at first, as he was away at school), and Paul did take them in and educate them, I could see Chris looking up to Paul (as a same gender caregiver), who did Cathy have to look up to?

Paul was also a doctor like Chris wanted to be. Cathy had no one.  

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA that there is an extra level of Cathy's love/hate with Corrine that Chris just doesn't have. He never feared that he would turn into Corrine and abandon the people who loved him the most. Despite everything Corrine did, part of Cathy still loved her mother and wanted her love and approval just as much as Carrie did. Cathy just hid it better beneath all of her anger and plans for revenge. But she grew up envying her mother's beauty and body so once she hit her teen years, she was both happy and repulsed by how much she resembled the mother she once admired. Every time she looked in the mirror, it was a reminder that she was physically turning into her mother so constantly told her self that she would never turn into Corrine in all of the negative ways. The irony is that she did become like her mother. When her kids were born, Cathy promised that she would never let them feel neglected or unloved and then she proceeded to do exactly that with Bart. It was much less overt than the way Corrine made Cathy feel neglected and unloved, but it still happened.

Chris really didn't and he never really got Cathy's fear of that. Corrine was a great loving mom until she was twelve. Cathy's scared that one day she'll change into that as well. She looks just like their mother which doesn't help. No matter what Cathy does she has that fear in the back of her mind. Too bad Paul didn't get her therapist (well for all the kids) to help her work out those fears. Of course if he had he couldn't groom Cathy. 

[Snow Apple]

They really *should* be in therapy but I don't know how they can without exposing their secrets. Even with patient/doctor confidentiality (was that a thing back then?), it may trigger an investigation and their lives exposed to the world. Cathy may be all for it so the guilty parties pay for their actions, but that could jeopardize Chris' future medical career, and what about poor Carrie facing the press and legal teams?

[Scarlett45]

On 6/9/2021 at 8:53 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When her kids were born, Cathy promised that she would never let them feel neglected or unloved and then she proceeded to do exactly that with Bart. It was much less overt than the way Corrine made Cathy feel neglected and unloved, but it still happened.

I dunno- a part of me feels that Bart was just emotionally and mentally unstable and no matter what Cathy/Chris did as parents he was going to have issues. 
 

Cathy/Chris were flawed themselves (obviously by their years in the attic) so they might not have had the tools to know how to help Bart, but that dude was weird from jump street. Jory never seemed to have any of the problems Bart did despite being raised by Cathy/Chris as parents. 

[Snow Apple]

Bart wasn’t like Jory but I think he would have been ok until John Amos corrupted him.

We all think Corrine and her parents as the bad ones (Malcom definitely was and the women turned bad) but John Amos had influence and pulling strings behind the scenes which made them worse.

So what do we believe? John is a spy for Malcom and Olivia from the first book with no real power, or he’s the mastermind from the prequel?

Edited June 10, 2021 by Snow Apple

[qtpye]

On 6/10/2021 at 9:49 AM, Scarlett45 said:

I dunno- a part of me feels that Bart was just emotionally and mentally unstable and no matter what Cathy/Chris did as parents he was going to have issues. 
 

Cathy/Chris were flawed themselves (obviously by their years in the attic) so they might now have had the tools to know how to help Bart, but that dude was weird from jump street. Jory never seemed to have any of the problems Bart did despite being raised by Cathy/Chris as parents. 

I wonder if some of Bart's problems could be related to the fact that his grandfather and grandmother were half brother/sister, though he would not know that.

Cathy and her siblings seemed to be fine until they went into the attic but I think inbreeding can cause emotional, mental, and physical problems for descendants.

[Scarlett45]

35 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I wonder if some of Bart's problems could be related to the fact that his grandfather and grandmother were half brother/sister, though he would not know that.

Cathy and her siblings seemed to be fine until they went into the attic but I think inbreeding can cause emotional, mental, and physical problems for descendants.

There’s so much we don’t know about mental health and the biochemistry of the brain, that it’s certainly possible. Also not every descendent has every “issue” their ancestors may have had. 
 

But some people are off “from jump street” and will end up okay with the right mix of a nurturing environment, therapy, medical treatment etc; and there are other people that won’t.
 

Bart was WEIRD- I can understand how Cathy and Chris were confused when parenting that child. He was bright but prone to emotional outbursts and his temper was awful. His treatment of Cindy was disgusting (even as a little kid). 

[qtpye]

On 6/9/2021 at 3:10 PM, andromeda331 said:

I don't think that's it. Chris Jr and Corrine had an odd relationship. He always seemed way to into her. There's that one scene in the book where Corrine brings him against her breasts. He's a teenager. She knew how to maniuplate him. He defended her the most and was the last hold out that Corrine hadn't changed. It wasn't until Cory died that he finally realized they had to get out of there. Cathy had been wanting to a lot longer.  But he still had hope for Corrine even when it was clear she didn't care about them. After they leave I don't think that he so much moved on as he still loved Corrine and couldn't ever really confront her about what she did. He was never really pissed at her for what she did. Cathy was. She wanted revenge. She was angry about what happened and wanted their mother to pay in some way. She wanted revenge for what was done to her and her siblings. Which is natural reaction. Carrie was taumatized and scared but as it turned out she still wanted her mother to acknowledge her. When she didn't it devastated her. Her reaction also makes sense. But Chris? He didn't do any of that. He didn't want to talk about their mother. He wanted Cathy to let it go. But we never really see him angry, fearful or have any negative reaction against Corrine.  

She easily could have done that. 

There has always been a suggestion that the women in the family (with the exception of Olivia the Grandmother) have always been very beautiful and some of the men have had an unhealthy obsession or worse with their family members. Case in point:

• Malcolm's obsession with his mother
• Malcolm's obsession with his daughter
• Corrinne trying to manipulate Chris Jr. with her beauty even though that is not how you act with your son.
• Bart's obsession with Cathy

I am not including Chris and Cathy because as others have pointed out, they probably would have been normal if not for the abuse they suffered in the attic.

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

There’s so much we don’t know about mental health and the biochemistry of the brain, that it’s certainly possible. Also not every descendent has every “issue” their ancestors may have had. 
 

But some people are off “from jump street” and will end up okay with the right mix of a nurturing environment, therapy, medical treatment etc; and there are other people that won’t.
 

Bart was WEIRD- I can understand how Cathy and Chris were confused when parenting that child. He was bright but prone to emotional outbursts and his temper was awful. His treatment of Cindy was disgusting (even as a little kid). 

I hated that they never really called out Bart for how he treated Cindy. They adopted that baby and brought her into the house...they had a duty to protect her from Bart.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I hated that they never really called out Bart for how he treated Cindy. They adopted that baby and brought her into the house...they had a duty to protect her from Bart.

Yes! Cindy was a little baby. Sibling jealousy happens (adopted or biological), but Bart wasn’t a toddler who didn’t know better. He was certainly old enough to know not to hurt a child much smaller than him self. Of all of his early behaviors that was the most alarming. 
 

Yes- all of the Foxworth women were incredibly beautiful (that happens in some families), but I can believe that Malcolm and Bart were both a little unhinged- and good old fashioned misogyny, gender roles, and the benefit of being born male allowed them to lash out at the women in their lives.