Sarah's Sober Second Thought Series: Stand Around And Don't Really Deliver

[Primetimer]

The static first section of Buffy's final season.

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[TeeVee329]

I still remember my geekish glee when what we now know was the First morphed into all the Big Bads at the end of "Lessons".

 

"It's not about right. It's not about wrong. It's about power..."

Edited April 1, 2015 by TeeVee329

[JennB]

The only really memorable/effective thing in the first three episodes is Gnarl, the demon from "Same Time, Same Place." That guy gives me a full-body shudder.

[ferretrick]

God knows Wardrobe has checked all the way out to the Lilith Fair parking lot, and taken the double-figure effects budget along to buy shake from a friend's cousin's boyfriend from Dover.

That is, seriously, some of the funniest snark you've ever written. And I've been reading your stuff for over a decade.

[AndySmith]

"from beneath you it devours"

 

Why does this feel like a catchphrase for the Big Bad the writers tried to make happen but just couldn't?

 

Shirtless Spike hugging the cross seems like Marti Noxon's wet dream projected onto the screen...

[sinkwriter]

 

Shirtless Spike hugging the cross seems like Marti Noxon's wet dream projected onto the screen...

 

Perhaps (LOL)... but it still looked really cool. I loved that scene for all its dark shadows and blue/white-toned lighting, and just the visual of him hugging a cross (which vampires just do not do). It was a gorgeously filmed scene.

Edited April 1, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Sarah D. Bunting]

"That is, seriously, some of the funniest snark you've ever written. And I've been reading your stuff for over a decade." Hee, thanks. The fashion's actually getting less horrendous but that's not saying much.

[Kristen]

I might raise a Lesbian Action Alert with this, but I think we can all agree that Willow's outfits got better after Tara died? She really dove head first (teehee) into those long, flow-y skirts for a while there. Urge to Merge indeed.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Kristen

[cheezwhiz346]

Thank you for discussing the general lack of enthusiasm in the first few episodes here. In some ways season 7 just feels like a completely different show to me; like everyone's kind of drained and no one's really friends anymore. There's just this listless feeling that really comes through, and I don't know if it's the actors, or writers, or what.

 

Also, Beneath You is one of my least favorite episodes, for the reasons you described here: the totally unnecessary over-explaining to the audience about things that happened in the past; the weird 'wrapping up' of the attempted rape; and Spike's shirt.

Edited April 2, 2015 by damngoodcoffee

[kimbrchick]

I've also been rewatching Buffy. When I originally watched Buffy I was much younger and more naive (who wasn't?) But I remember the attempted rape scene and also remember not thinking much of it. Watching it again I felt horrified and almost ill. How on earth can Buffy rationalize that away with the fact that he didn't succeed in his attempt to rape her? Oh yeah, because they still want to use Spike. This show gives us characters doing horrible things to up the ante and shock us but then isn't ready for them to not be a part of the gang. Seeing Buffy trying to kill Anya one episode but then have lighthearted funny dialog with her in the next one is weird.

[paramitch]

Another fabulous recap/revisitation!

 

And I admit to totally enjoying the snark because, at the time, there was a lot of press about how wonderful season 7 was, and I just didn't agree. I loved Buffy, and still do, but I just thought that this season, even as it kicked off, looked shiny and good, but it fell apart if you really examined it, and this recap did a terrific job of asking the pertinent questions none of the Scoobs seemed to be able to ask.

 

I sympathize that the writers had to get themselves out of some sharp, tough S6 corners for S7, but they put themselves there. So when they just kind of gloss over these huge plot points -- that Willow was a Big Bad, murderer, and attempted world-ender -- that Spike tried to rape Buffy -- that Anya is now also actively working vengeance again -- it's frustrating. (And yet I'm also torn because I never, ever believed Spike would actually attempt to rape Buffy in the first place, and I really objected to the plot point when it happened. It's just not his particular brand of evil.)

 

I did love the addition of beautiful D.B. Woodside, and was happy they basically handwaved away Willow's magic addiction so fast. Although don't get me started on The Worst Evil (my pick for most inept and semi-hilarious Big Bad ever). It's like Buffy's "job" at the high school. Sure, it works if you kind of squint at it. But you kind of have to squint at everything on the show from this point onward to make it all work.

 

Meanwhile I'm still laughing at the idea of Spike just kind of sizzling like bacon on that cross... and Buffy weeps a single tear, shrugs and goes home.

[KirkB]

I knew season 7 was going to be a mess almost from the start, when they spent all of season 6 drumming it into our heads over and over again that magic was an addiction for Willow only to dismiss pretty much all of it by having Giles flat out say to her "it's not an addiction" in the opening scene. Okay, so what the hell did you make me sit through that very metaphor in season six for?

[John Potts]

The thing I remember about "From beneath you it devours" was Andrew (I think) restating it as "It eats you, starting with your bottom". Other than that - yeah. Either the Scoobs are just naturally forgiving (which isn't really borne out elsewhere) or it seems like the writers want us to forget what Spike & Willow did in S6.

[Halting Hex]

Here, have a working link.

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NOBODY'S SPOKEN TO WILLOW DIRECTLY IN MONTHS? 

Yeah yeah, she's in England. My esteemed colleague John Ramos lived in England when these eps aired. I would send him VHS tapes (I know! vintage humans are we) of 2-4 eps at a time and then we would schedule a transatlantic call to bitch about them, so the thing is, we spent more time on the phone discussing the show than the show had the characters themselves spend talking to each other? Because we spent...any? 

Seriously?  I've always raged about how in Beneath You, Willow is all nervous about coming back to Sunnydale and neither she nor Giles (both fairly smart, allegedly) think to use "the ingenious speaking-tube" to call and find out how B/X/D feel about that, but I didn't recall that we were told that nobody had talked to her all summer.  JFC, that makes Willow's returning home even less sensible.

I mean, read the room, Rosenberg.

(Checking the script, I see that's not made explicit.  Sarah's just assuming it because Willow's too petrified to get in the cab.  [Get in the fucking cab with her, Giles.  What, you've got to stay and feed your horse?] 

Still, this ain't great:

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GILES:  Willow, we could spend another two years here training and practicing and learning to hone your powers and still there'd be no way of knowing for sure that the friends you left behind you are still your friends. 

Even if you can fanwank that Willow was locked away with the coven and couldn't come to the phone [which, bullshit], how was Xander not writing her letters regularly?  We know Xander can write; we see his yellow-crayon sign next episode.  But for the sake of "drama" [and a hugely stupid plot for 7.03], we're supposed to believe that there's been no communication whatsoever.  And way to go Giles, sending an allegedly-dangerous Willow back to the Hellmouth without even trying to help her through her crisis.  That whole "Giles can be an idiot sometimes. The smart kind, but still" deal is looking pretty spot on, I'm thinking.)

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SINCE WHEN IS SPIKE'S FAILURE TO RAPE BUFFY THE POINT HERE? 

Dawn points out that he tried, and Buffy's response is, "And he failed. I know I can take him." All right, well, I guess the show has to tell itself certain things in order to keep Spike in play, but again, the issue isn't that he did or did not succeed in penetrating Buffy. The issue is that he wanted to do it without her permission. Ergo, calling it "attempted rape" and not "he sucks at horseshoes." 

I can remember that Spuffy fans on the boards were scrupulous about simply referring to it as "the AR".  Because apparently spelling it out might bring up the point where Spike's a goddamn rapist.  His incompetence isn't really the issue, it's the moral character.

To be fair, Buffy's "I know I can take him" could just be indicative of her being in denial about the whole issue.  But it's not as if we get much follow-up in 7.03, so…

On 4/1/2015 at 1:58 PM, AndySmith said:

Shirtless Spike hugging the cross seems like Marti Noxon's wet dream projected onto the screen...

Again, not so much.  Marti may have loved the "bad boy" angst with Angel, but it's clear that she had little use for Spuggy.  In five of her seven Dawnverse scripts, Buffy and Spike don't even meet.   Yes, she wrote that grotesque post-sex talk in Wrecked, but perhaps she deliberately made it repellent.  She never wrote even one single solitary kiss between the two scrawny a-holes.

In fact, Marti isn't even on staff at the moment.  (She was on maternity leave.). The cross-hugging rewrite was all Joss Whedon, the man who gave them both their first romantic kiss (in Very Pretty Crap) and their first relationship kiss (Once More, with Spuggy).  The man who said he'd had the vision of Spike drilling (an apparently panty-less) Buffy in the ass "for years".   Marti is certainly not without her sins (she's the woman who wrote Buffy deciding to take her 15-year-old virginal sister to her attempted rapist's for "protection" in Villains, even though Warren wasn't after Dawn, and Buffy knew that Warren had Spike's crypt under video surveillance and Spike's chip meant that he'd be helpless to stop a human Warren, anyhow), but you can't pin this shit on her.  JMO.

 

[lembergwatcher]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I've always raged about how in Beneath You, Willow is all nervous about coming back to Sunnydale and neither she nor Giles (both fairly smart, allegedly) think to use "the ingenious speaking-tube" to call and find out how B/X/D feel about that

And it's not like telephones are forbidden or non-existent on the Coven's grounds since Willow gets a direct phone call from Althenea right there in Casa Summers, several episodes later, in Showtime.

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Even if you can fanwank that Willow was locked away with the coven and couldn't come to the phone [which, bullshit], how was Xander not writing her letters regularly?  

If Willow was locked away than chances were those who ran Coven somehow intercepted Xander's letters and prevented them from reaching Willow... Maybe because Giles told them to.

Btw, an unpopular opinion based on the 'shipper's bias, but still: since it was Xander who stopped our favorite redhead from killing the world, whether we like it or not, it would've been kinda wise on Giles' and Coven's behalf to allow Xillow contact since Xander's persona (once again, whether we like it or not) had some positive effect on Willow. More positive I dare say than Giles hypocritical lectures. Therefore not only X/W should've been allowed to communicate via phone, e-mail or letters, Xander's visit could've been an option and thus partly helped Willow with her anexieties regarding the gang.

Giles was a crappy mentor who did a terrible job with introducing Willow to the world of magic. It was as if he gave her the loaded gun knowing full well that Willow could've blown her own or the other's brains out, and basically told her "figure it out for yourself". IMO the guy who left in the middle of a serious crisis for no reasom and thus abandoned Willow and Buffy while seeing with his own two eyes both girls were deep in some serious shit should not have been allowed near any of them... But Joss decided otherwise.

 

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

That whole "Giles can be an idiot sometimes. The smart kind, but still" deal is looking pretty spot on, I'm thinking.)

Not sometimes. Most of the time. If one takes a retrospective look at Giles' numerous failures in the past, at all those things he could've done/should've done but didn't or shouldn't have done but did, than there's really no use being surprised with him "sending an allegedly-dangerous Willow back to the Hellmouth without even trying to help her through her crisis".

If Giles performed his job properly most of the major crisises that hit the Buffyverse, i. e. Angel(us) crisis, Faith crisis, Buffy post-resurrection crisis, Spike messing with Buffy's mind or Willow's "magic addiction" that nearly led to her destroying the whole world would never have happened. But that's not the case of idiocy IMO, that's the case of utter incompetence.

[Halting Hex]

So you're thinking there's a reason why the Council decided to stick Legacy Boy with the Slayer who'd already gotten Merrick killed, huh?  "Give him six months and then give our condolences to his father", is that it?  Hmmm…

Speaking of this subject, I fortuitously took another look at that "Talk" thread I mentioned on the trivia board, and found…this:

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When discussing the rape, I address what I feel is the heart of the matter, and do not feel bound to point out that Spike failed to gain the prize he sought by violating Buffy sexually. Spike's incompetence is scant mitigation for his intent, IMO, and the heavy-handed attempt by ME and the pro-Spike fans to sanitize the events, starting with Marti being sure to have Xander say "tried to" in Villains (yeah, like that distinction would matter to him...) and the use of "attempted rape" and its abbreviation to "AR" (just so nobody has to say the bad word, because that's being mean to Spikey-poo), has been a sore point for me. So I call rape "rape", rather than feeling I'm letting the devil escape via the details.  

Also, the fact that there's considerable Spuffer volume that Spikey did nothing wrong because Buffy's a tease and she's so mean to not "love" him back—because you have to return someone's affections, it's the law!—makes me even less willing to dot all the "i"s on my side of the issue.

(BTW, I don't want to sound one-note about Spike and Spuffy. I hated Spike, Spuffy, and Season Sux long before he barged into the bathroom [ew!] and resent ME for trying to use that one event as if it's the only bad thing he's ever done and if Buffy can forgive him, then so must we. [See also "forget about Andrew wanting to rape Katrina, murdering Katrina, trying to frame Buffy for Katrina's murder, wanting to murder Jonathan, wanting Warren to murder Buffy, wanting to murder Xander and fleeing justice during Season 6! He's cute and harmless and the only bad thing he ever did was to kill Jonathan and that was the First's fault and he feels really, really bad about it. Oh, he's so funny and redeemed and a hero and it's perfectly alright for us to waste one of the last few eps on him and to have Anya's death be AllAboutAndrew..."] I hate Joss's bizarre left turn into "Redemption! Hallelujah!" the last few years, and the simplifying and sanitizing of events is part and parcel of this, IMO.)  

So if I was called upon in a court of law to answer the question "what criminal offense did Spike commit in Act II of Seeing Red?", yes, then I might say "Attempted Rape", but in discussing my blinding hatred of Spike, Spuffy, some of the more (again, IMO) appalling Spuffer rationalizations, the destruction of the characters, the UPN years in general, Joss Whedon, Marti Noxon, and James "I don't care if the script says Spike's angry, I'm gonna play him hurt and vulnerable and innocent, because it'll help my career and screw the show, 'I'm not a team player' " Marsters, in those cases I don't bother to mention the "difference" that makes very little difference to me and which I feel is used as an excuse to try and bury the very issue under discussion. 

From the days when Spike was actually still floating around at Wolfram & Hart.  (October, 2003.)  Which case of Marsters shmooping up the script was I referring to, I wonder?  Huh.

ETA:

Quote

it would've been kinda wise on Giles' and Coven's behalf to allow Xillow contact since Xander's persona…had some positive effect on Willow.

And that's with Giles only knowing about the Yellow Crayon speech.  If X had ever mentioned that whole "one time I woke Willow from a coma" deal, that would be more evidence of how he can "save the world with [his] mouth".  But he didn't tell anyone (apparently not even Willow during the "fluke") about that, so…

ETAA:

Another contributor on that trivia board liked Lessons more than I did.  But that still left plenty of room for improvement:

Quote

I found the whole Mom!Buffy stuff pretty funny. But, I think you're right. This is the whole of the core of the problem of Seasons 6 and 7 for me. Buffy is Mom. Buffy is responsible. And, you know what, Buffy is boring. This automatically puts Dawn in as the fun one.…BUT, I want to see Buffy, Xander and Willow be the fun ones and Giles with the Funny!Responsibility. This set-up automatically makes the whole series less fun. And makes the show about a young mom struggling with a crazy kid through money worries and the struggle to find the right man. And, I've already seen Grace under Fire.
 

********************************

…part of the reason Seasons 1-5 work so well is that Buffy's huge huge world-saving responsibilities are balanced with her entire lack of responsiblity as a ditzy college girl. This juxtaposition is why the whole series worked so well. Light and shade. She wants to go to the Prom, she needs to save the world. She wants to go the mall, she needs to kill her lover to close a hell-gate. Contrast. But now it's all responsibility for Buffy. There's no contrast, there's just responsibility. You really do need to find the fun, B. Err, Oring.

And the whole outcast thing is a really big big problem for me. I loved Buffy choosing Willow and Xander to hang out with instead of Cordelia in Wtth. I loved the whole Triumph of the Odd type vibe. And anything that undermines this plays really sour with me.

…

[Although] in Lessons…I thought they were actively trying to promote [the "outsider" vibe] with Kit and Carlos. Because you know, she had dyed hair and slightly gothy clothes - oooh, edgy!

Way too generous wrt S5 being "fun", IMO, but still on point.  I'd only disagree that Buffy should be allowed to show maturity and grow into her responsibilities; IMO, that's the point of S1-S3.

It's not that Buffy (and Buffy) evolves, I'd say…it's that it loses its sense of self along the way.  So instead of High School Buffy becoming College Buffy and then Young Adult Buffy, suddenly we find ourself enduring Joyce the Demon-Slayer.  (As vampires are no longer allowed to be dangerous, which might make Bad Boy Spike look sketchy.)

Oh, joy.  Or utter lack thereof, more honestly.

Whedon also seems to have been unable to see that his characters wanted to develop but retain their cores, instead swapping in (IMO piss-poor) substitutes.  Dawn is the New Willow, the innocent Buffy must protect!  Andrew is the new Xander, the whacky geek!  Anya is the new Cordelia, she's so HI-larious, who needs an inner core of decency?  

Feh and feh and feh again.

Although to be fair to Key-face, she wasn't Whedon's first attempt to replace Willow.  From the ass himself, on the commentary for Hush:

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And the idea that basically, [with Tara,] we had a new Willow. Because Willow had become so self-confident and at ease with herself, she wasn't as helpless as she used to be. And so we wanted somebody, particularly for this episode, who could act as a kind of Willow character. Somebody we would be invested in, who could be put into danger, who would not necessarily know how to take care of herself off the bat. Because you need somebody like that, and Willow - and Alyson herself - had both matured to the point where it took a lot to get them into that kind of peril.

So I guess Joss hadn't been watching S4 at all, huh?  One of the drivers behind the explosion of Buffy/Willow 'shipping during the first half of this season (that's when the fanfic lists started) was that not only was Angel finally gone (soon followed by Wolfboy), not only were the girls sharing a room with the resultant opportunities for cuddling, but that Willow was getting more damsel action than she'd had in a while.  From being rescued from the fire by Cave!Buffy in Beer Bad to being rescued from Oz-wolf by Buffy in Wild at Heart to being rescued from Spike/the Commandos by Buffy and her ridiculous flare gun (I love "contain this!", but come on, now), Willow had shown plenty of physical vulnerability this season.

As for emotional vulnerability, Oz had put her through the wringer, the dirty dog, and as for being shocked by the coldness of the world, Willow had literally said, just two episodes previously, that every innocent life lost still hurts her.

from Killed by Death (re Dr. Backer, RIP):

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WILLOW: It's weird going through his things.  Look, he didn't finish his coffee. (sad face) Guess he won't. 

BUFFY:  Yep, another person I wasn't in time to save. 

And from Pangs (adieu, Prof. Gerhardt):

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WILLOW : I'll never get used to this. One day, she's at the friendship ceremony. The next day, she's on the news. 

Feels like pretty much the same Willow (and the same B/W dynamic) to me.  Aside from Alyson having a different haircut and finally being allowed to wear heels.

But, apparently, we "needed" someone "more vulnerable:.  Whatever, genius.  How'd that work out, exactly?  Sigh.
 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:30 AM, Halting Hex said:

And that's with Giles only knowing about the Yellow Crayon speech.  If X had ever mentioned that whole "one time I woke Willow from a coma" deal, that would be more evidence of how he can "save the world with [his] mouth".  But he didn't tell anyone (apparently not even Willow during the "fluke") about that, so…

Due to his near death experience in Grave Rupert has probably figured something out...
 

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GILES: The gift I was given by the coven was the true essence of magic. Willow's magic came from a ... place of rage and power.

ANYA: And vengeance. Don't forget vengeance.

GILES: Oh. How could I? In any case, the magic she took from me tapped into ... the spark of humanity she had left. Helped her to feel again. Gave Xander the opportunity to ... reach her.

ANYA: Xander?

GILES: Yes. It was he who got to her in time. (smiling) He saved us all.

What if Xander told Giles about the Yellow Crayon too? Anyway, I don't remember any clear cut statements about Xander not telling anyone besides Buffy and Dawn. But I can be wrong.

As for the whole "I woke Willow from a coma" thing... I'm going slightly OT here but that's probably the biggest mystery to me why Xander never mentioned the said incident. We all know Xander has a habit of talking to the point he can't keep his mouth shut even if he should (remember the end of Pangs) but somehow he manages to keep this particular secret til the last episode of the show. The one thing that could've changed his relationship with Willow for the better, the one thing that could've spared him the pain of loosing Willow's friendship post-fluke and yet... Xander remained silent which is quite OOC in his case IMO. And even after the Bluff Willow continued to believe those were Wolfboy's words that woke her from a coma five years prior...