Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[ShadowFacts]

 

To be fair to Emily, the wesen "maiden", she wasn't shown to kill before this circumstance and didn't seem inclined to do so at a later time. Granted, that's on the writing, but that's how Ms. Zima seemed to play Emily's reactions. She was willing to protect her father ( from the cops and the man who supposedly killed her brother) and the person that was targeted by a ritual that she didn't want to be part of and didn't want "innocents"/mundanes killed.  The three feather-bearers, or at least the first two, seemed willing to kill for a woman who didn't seem that excited at the idea of marrying them. We can't know about the third because he was prevented from carrying out the attack/ making the hard call.

 

Emily also didn't seem to be all "Yipee! I get to be a Mafia Queen!" in the last scenes with her and her dad.

 

True, her actions can be viewed this way.  Or, that she is a dead-eyed sociopath who tore apart someone she grew up with (didn't she say that? I'm not sure) and maybe even engineered her brother's hit for all we know.  Now that she takes the reins from her father who was testing her and is a brute himself, the probability is high in Mafia-type lore that she will indeed continue with offing people who don't fit in her plans.  That's what I didn't like about the whole thing, that she was not neutralized in some way and gets off free as a bird.

[Free]

I'm guessing they thought the only way they could turn Juliette against Nick was to make Adalind pregnant with his baby. That, of course, is complete BS--Juliette was mad at Nick before Kenneth told her Adalind was pregnant.  They actually could have played out Season 4 almost exactly as they did WITHOUT Adalind being pregnant.  It could have gone like this:

- Kenneth finds out Juliette is a hexenbiest and realizes she's more useful to him than Adalind is..

- Adalind, kicked to the curb by Kenneth and aware that Juliette has plans to kill her, goes to Nick and says that she has a way she can help him but he needs to protect her in exchange for it

- Kenneth springs Juliette from jail and tells her that Nick is now working with Adalind....

....and the rest of the season goes pretty much the same way, except there is no pregnancy involved.

 

Then, going into season 5, the creative team isn't tied to a story line.  Let's face it, the only way to get out of this story arc is to kill off Adalind.  My guess is that there is A LOT of scrambling in the offices right now--a good chunk of fans are ANGRY and are not afraid to post about, apparently there are some crazy and mean twitter fights going on, and *ratings are falling every single week.*  But, now they are stuck with a baby, which makes a course correction that much harder.  Add to that the fact that they have two camps of people, one or the other will be pissed no matter which way they go, and things are ugly....

 

I have no idea what they were trying to do last season and this season is even worse, even the wesen of the week are worse than ever.

[OtterMommy]

I have no idea what they were trying to do last season and this season is even worse, even the wesen of the week are worse than ever.

 

I can't speak to the Wesen as I quit watching after ep2 (but, even in that episode, the Wesen was....lazily done.  It was the ferocious brand new one that we'd never seen, but-hey, Nick remembers them from the books,so all is good...)

 

As for the rest o the show....really, it's sort of the same thing.  From what I can tell from what little I've seen of the season and what people have posted is that Adalind is now just Juliette 2.0, except they are actually putting some effort into the relationship (shudder!!!!) side.  

 

I'm not denying the fact that there were some performance issues with Juliette.  However, that was only the tip of the iceberg.  Never once were Nick and Juliette written as a couple.  They were introduced as such and then just sort of left there.  We rarely saw any intimate moments between them--and I don't mean sex scenes.  I mean the two of them actually being in a relationship.  In the scene where Juliette takes a hit off the magic bong hat and then turn into Adalind, there was this little snippet.  It was literally like 1-2 seconds long--Nick was holding Juliette's hand and had his head on her shoulder or something like and I remember, the first time I saw that, thinking, "They are FINALLY acting like a couple"...which was ironic since in just a few minutes Nick would be having sex with someone who looked just like Adalind....

 

You know, if all this was happening with another character--if they had introduced a new love interest for Nick--I'd be all over it.  I'm a sap and a sucker for love stories.  But it is with Adalind, which is horribly wrong for two reasons.  One--rape.  Two--they've taken an actress who was already stuck with a badly written character and taken everything that was remotely interesting about her away.  And why? To please people who can't play well with others on Twitter? Really?

Edited November 23, 2015 by OtterMommy

[Free]

I can't speak to the Wesen as I quit watching after ep2 (but, even in that episode, the Wesen was....lazily done.  It was the ferocious brand new one that we'd never seen, but-hey, Nick remembers them from the books,so all is good...)

 

It is, and that's problematic as the show used to be a lot more creative with the Wesen of the week stories a long time ago.

[Darklazr]

That's actually a good question.  I had never thought about it but, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.  Viktor knew very early in season 4 that Diana was with Kelly and that Nick was involved. The smart thing for him to do would have been to send the Verrat to get Nick and torture (not that I want to see torture....) him until he gave them Kelly's whereabouts (not that Nick knew them....)

 

Another thing...why on earth would Viktor even want Adalind involved in finding Diana? Once they figured out that Kelly had Diana, Adalind was actually of absolutely no use to them.  It made sense, of course, to keep an eye on her--she'd already proven to be a flight risk.  But bringing her to Portland with them was just beyond stupid.  Even though she was a hexenbiest, I can't see how she had any special skills that would help them AND what would have stopped her, if they actually found Diana, from running off with her again?  They should have just left her in Vienna (in the psycho prison).

 

As I write this, I realize how asinine that whole plot really was....

 

This! 

 

Adalind served no purpose unless the Royal's decided that maybe they needed her for health reasons if Diana was ill. Viktor allowed Adalind to confront Juliette versus like you said having the Veratt grab Nick and force him to to disclose his mother's whereabouts.  Another really dumb move was having Kelly take Diana in the first place instead of stashing the baby with Henrietta. Once Viktor left town, Diana could have been given back to Adalind and Renard could have had them disappear from Portland.

To be fair to Emily, the wesen "maiden", she wasn't shown to kill before this circumstance and didn't seem inclined to do so at a later time. Granted, that's on the writing, but that's how Ms. Zima seemed to play Emily's reactions. She was willing to protect her father ( from the cops and the man who supposedly killed her brother) and the person that was targeted by a ritual that she didn't want to be part of and didn't want "innocents"/mundanes killed.  The three feather-bearers, or at least the first two, seemed willing to kill for a woman who didn't seem that excited at the idea of marrying them. We can't know about the third because he was prevented from carrying out the attack/ making the hard call.

 

Emily also didn't seem to be all "Yipee! I get to be a Mafia Queen!" in the last scenes with her and her dad.

 

I like the Nick/Hank and Nick/Hank/Wu dynamic, but I am disappointed that Pogue was cycled out so fast. It was fun to see how the "mundane" cops, Hank and Wu, had to process crimes with someone who doesn't understand. I liked the actor, so hopefully he will figure into another case or two. I am hoping he does not have anything to do with the big wesen plot. Sometimes a clueless, human cop is just a clueless, human cop. (Clueless= not in on wesen.)

 

Especially after Erik was thisclose to doing so! Erik went fancy and splashy. The result ended up with him dead. Viktor and Ken were shown to be more patient and less convoluted. ( "How about not using half of the city in a West Coast Walking Dead ensemble?")

 

Pogue!  Yes, I agree the episode with Pogue was hysterical as we watched someone not in the know try and figure out what the hell is going on with the two dead bodies!

[kathyk24]

I don't agree that what Nick did to Adalind in Season 1 was rape. Adalind knew that she could be depowered by a Grimm yet he still tried to kill Hank. The blood acted like a weapon from the trailer. Nick had no clue that she could transform into Juliette and depower him. 

[OtterMommy]

I don't agree that what Nick did to Adalind in Season 1 was rape. Adalind knew that she could be depowered by a Grimm yet he still tried to kill Hank. The blood acted like a weapon from the trailer. Nick had no clue that she could transform into Juliette and depower him. 

 

It depends on how you read the definition of rape.  By the letter or the dictionary definition, it could be argued that it was rape.

 

However, I did ask an attorney friend who about it after it came up in discussion here a few months ago (she had been a Grimm fan and had seen the episode, although she gave up on the series in season 2 amidst the amnesia plot) and she said, if anything, it would be Assault IV (my memory might be off, but I think it was IV because Adalind instigated the violence?)

[OtterMommy]

Adalind served no purpose unless the Royal's decided that maybe they needed her for health reasons if Diana was ill. Viktor allowed Adalind to confront Juliette versus like you said having the Veratt grab Nick and force him to to disclose his mother's whereabouts.  Another really dumb move was having Kelly take Diana in the first place instead of stashing the baby with Henrietta. Once Viktor left town, Diana could have been given back to Adalind and Renard could have had them disappear from Portland.

 

They couldn't have done that because Henrietta didn't exist in season 3.  Seriously, she did not exist.  You would think that a super powerful Hexenbiest who serves as some sort of mentor to other 'biests and happens to live in Portland would be kind of a big deal--at least big enough for some reference to something like her from seaon 1. 

 

But, no...all of a sudden she just shows up (except, of course, she'd been living in Portland since Renard was a child).  And it is very, very hard to get to see her unless she helped your mother (Renard), someone refers you (Juliette and Nick), or you show up on her doorstep (Adalind).  And, even though she is so incredibly powerful that all 'biests look to her, she's completely defenseless when a man, who had just told her that strange things were happening to him and he thinks he might be hurting people, turns around and pulls a knife.

 

Sadly, she's just one in a line of characters that are introduced with great potential and then either forgotten about or killed off unceremoniously.

[merylinkid]

Here's what I keep circling back to as indicative of the fundamental problem with Grimm.   Juliette was originally written to be a baker as her job.   But then they found out the actress had a dog so they went "hey let's make her a vet."    Not, well that's nice, bring him by the set some time.   Not, well that's nice, but you see her baking skills are going to come in handy in season 3, so we need to keep that option open."    Just "eh, vet, baker, what's the diff?"   They literally didn't care what Juliette did for a living because they had no plan.   

 

That's is the whole problem in a nutshell.    The other stuff, liking an actor/actress, not following through on storylines, adding and subtracting characters, big giant plot holes all boil down to There. Was. No. Plan.   

 

They still don't have one.   Okay, it survived the first season, now what?   Maybe we should have a plan?   Nope, let's keep muddling along and hope nobody notices that we have no clue where we are going with any story we tell.

[OtterMommy]

I think that once Adalind has her hexonbeist back things will change between her and Nick. She gets pretty nasty as a h-beist.

 

 

Adalind was also pretty nasty when she wasn't a hexenbiest...she was also kind of nasty in that brief period of time that she had Diana (rude and ungrateful to the woman who was saving her life, ran out on the people who were giving her shelter, and then basically told Renard to shoot Nick). 

 

People who think Adalind is a "good" character, while certainly within their rights to do so, tie themselves in knots trying to conjure up evidence for their beliefs.  The fact is that Adalind has never been portrayed as anything other than a selfish, ignorant villain wanna-be. But this brings up what I think is a bigger problem with the show, and it plays into what merylinkid wrote above.

 

In an interview I posted a few weeks ago with Claire Coffee, she said that she never knows what is coming up and can only play the character week by week. I don't disbelieve her (although, back before season 3 started, both BT's talked about reading the scripts for the first half of the season.  I'm not saying anyone's lying...I think that, maybe, the creative team has changed how they do things...for reasons...).  

 

There may be more to all this but, if Claire Coffee and the cast are really working from script to script without any real idea of what is coming, that is a great disservice to them. Let's say that my theory holds that Adalind is playing everyone (please, I hope it is...).  How is Claire Coffee supposed to play that if she doesn't know about it.  How is anyone supposed to play their roles if they don't know where they are going?

 

I have another theory--I don't think the creative team has an effing clue where this season is going.  I really think that they are sort of putting all this Nick/Adalind crap out of there to see what people think.  Do they like it (not according to their "poll" they posted yesterday on FB...) or do they want Juliette back?  (They don't seem to want to ask that third option...how about we just let Nick do his thing and not be romantically involved with anyone?)  If this is true, I don't know why the cast doesn't just walk.  Seriously.  How can you play a role that has no direction, until dictated by who tweets the most, and NOT expect to look like *you* are the bad actor?

 

I think they were filming ep9 when the season started to air.  My guess is that there might be some bizarre plot "twists" around eps 13-14 as they try, once again, to make everyone happy instead of worrying about crafting an actual story.

Edited November 24, 2015 by OtterMommy

[jhlipton]

That's is the whole problem in a nutshell.    The other stuff, liking an actor/actress, not following through on storylines, adding and subtracting characters, big giant plot holes all boil down to There. Was. No. Plan.   

 

Come to Sleepy Hollow.  (Catch up on Hulu and start again after the break.) It's very clear that the showrunner and the writers do have a plan -- one that taps the strengths and weaknesses of the four leads.

[orza]

In an interview I posted a few weeks ago with Claire Coffee, she said that she never knows what is coming up and can only play the character week by week. I don't disbelieve her (although, back before season 3 started, both BT's talked about reading the scripts for the first half of the season.  I'm not saying anyone's lying...I think that, maybe, the creative team has changed how they do things...for reasons...).  

 

There may be more to all this but, if Claire Coffee and the cast are really working from script to script without any real idea of what is coming, that is a great disservice to them. Let's say that my theory holds that Adalind is playing everyone (please, I hope it is...).  How is Claire Coffee supposed to play that if she doesn't know about it.  How is anyone supposed to play their roles if they don't know where they are going?

Most shows operate like this out of necessity. At any given time actors only have the scripts for the episode they are currently filming and the next episode. Script writing is only about 3 or 4 weeks ahead of filming and scripts can undergo changes right up until the last minute. That's just the way it is in tv production, at least for the major networks that need to crank out 20 or more episodes in 9 months. Many producers don't want their actors to know too much about their character's story arc so events planned for later in the season will not influence their performance in earlier episodes.

 

Bitsy might have reasonably seen about half the scripts for the season by the time the show premiered at the end of October because the actors got their first script in June, began filming in July and were working on episode 9 or 10 in October.

Edited November 25, 2015 by orza

[OtterMommy]

Most shows operate like this out of necessity. At any given time actors only have the scripts for the episode they are currently filming and the next episode. Script writing is only about 3 or 4 weeks ahead of filming and scripts can undergo changes right up until the last minute. That's just the way it is in tv production, at least for the major networks that need to crank out 20 or more episodes in 9 months. Many producers don't want their actors to know too much about their character's story arc so events planned for later in the season will not influence their performance in earlier episodes.

 

I do understand that the actors haven't seen scripts ahead of time, but I would think they should know the major points of the season's arc.  Also, if there is something about their particular character going on, they should know that.  I could see, for example, if they are doing the "Adalind is pulling the wool over everyone's eyes" * thing that Claire Coffee would (should!) know, but the rest of the cast would not.  That is the sort of information that the actor would need for their performance.

 

*Of course, at this point, it is just wishful thinking on my part that this is all a hexen-ploy on Adalind's part.  I've been using that as an example because it has been widely speculated AND it would be an easy way for the show to course correct--because what they are doing right now is not working.  

 

In one of the interviews the show runners did at Comic Con this year (I saw it quoted, so I don't have the original link...but it should be easy to find), they basically said that, when they introduced the keys, they weren't planning on resolving that until the 100th episode.  Just a reminder--the keys were introduced in the first episode.  They then went on and said something along the lines that the 100th episode snuck up on them and they had to scramble to think of something.  That doesn't exactly make me, as a fan (well, if I were still actually watching the show), exactly confident about the current and future direction of the show.  Frankly, I can't believe they admitted that.

 

(a short intermission)....

 

I did the legwork and found the source.  It actually wasn't at SDCC but at the 100th ep celebration.  Here is the entire article:

http://www.blastr.com/2015-11-18/exclusive-grimm-cast-and-crew-reveal-season-5-secrets-whats-come-100th-episode

 

And here is the part I was talking about (ETA: ep 90 was s5ep2....so they didn't really start thinking about the keys until AFTER they had started this season!)

 

Creator and executive producer Jim Kouf: “When we went to Comic-Con on the first year when we had no idea how long this series would run, we said, 'If we ever get to episode 100, we'll answer the question about the keys,' never thinking we'd actually ever have to answer because what show ever goes to 100? Then when we got to 90 and 91 and 92, we go, 'Uh-oh, we'd better figure out what those keys are.' So, I mean, we always had an idea, but now we had to actually do it. But yeah, we're going to deal with the keys in 100.”

Edited November 25, 2015 by OtterMommy

[orza]

In most cases actors don't need to know what will happen in future episodes in order to do their job filming the current episode.Many actors say that giving a good performance is all about being in the moment and having knowledge of the character's future can have a negative impact of one's performance. There is no reason that, to use your example, Clare Coffee would need to know that her character was engaging in subterfuge in order to convincingly portray Adelind as a helpless new mother, unless it were the intent of producers to let the audience in on her secret. Many actor's also don't read the whole script but only read the sides that have their lines so that they will not have any more information that the character has because, again, they don't want it to influence their performance.

 

I read and hear actors from many different shows say in interviews that they don't know more than one or maybe two scripts in ahead what is going on with their character. I figure if the actors are fine with only knowing what their character is up to in the current and next episode they are working on, then  I don't need to get upset about it on their behalf.

[merylinkid]

If you are doing a show with mostly stand alone episodes, then sure, no one needs to know what is going to happen next.   Because it doesn't matter.   But if you are going to do huge story arcs, you better have some ideas where you are going so you can plant clues along the way, or things that don't seem important at the time turn out to be very important later on.   Maybe the details don't need to be known, but if you have Bees warning you that "something is coming" in episode 3ish, there better be something every so often about that.   Even if it's just a bee buzzing around a flower in a scene, or a bee pin that is always worn by a character or something.  Othereise, you get "Nick won.   He beat the Royals."  WTF????????    Because we never found out the stakes against the Royals no one cared he "won."   Or even knew he had.  

 

The best example of threads being woven into a whole cloth over long periods of time is Babylon 5.   Stuff planted in season 1 did not come out until season 4.   That's some long range planning.   But it worked because the creator had a vision and stuck to it as best as he could.   So throwaway things in season 1 wound up being significant later one because he made sure they were there.

[OtterMommy]

I get that the creators of Grimm had no idea of how many episodes they had and, yes, that can make long-term planning difficult.  But, to introduce an arc with absolutely NO INTENTION of concluding it for 99 episodes--if you get that many--is just crazy.  Then, to admit that they weren't even prepared for it.  Ugh...this show!  

[Darklazr]

They couldn't have done that because Henrietta didn't exist in season 3.  Seriously, she did not exist.  You would think that a super powerful Hexenbiest who serves as some sort of mentor to other 'biests and happens to live in Portland would be kind of a big deal--at least big enough for some reference to something like her from seaon 1. 

 

But, no...all of a sudden she just shows up (except, of course, she'd been living in Portland since Renard was a child).  And it is very, very hard to get to see her unless she helped your mother (Renard), someone refers you (Juliette and Nick), or you show up on her doorstep (Adalind).  And, even though she is so incredibly powerful that all 'biests look to her, she's completely defenseless when a man, who had just told her that strange things were happening to him and he thinks he might be hurting people, turns around and pulls a knife.

 

Sadly, she's just one in a line of characters that are introduced with great potential and then either forgotten about or killed off unceremoniously.

 

Yes, the stuff with Henrietta was just plain odd.  A hexenbiest that helped Renard's mother when she first came to Portland and yet the man never thought to ask for her assistance when he was obsessed with Juliette.  Renard had to ask Katherine for a potion and releasing Adalind from jail instead of going to Henriette was just, dumb.

 

We still had Juliette a vet with no pets of her own!  Is this even possible?  I would have thought Nik and Juliette would have had a dog or a cat, but I don't remember ever seeing the two with their own pet.

It seems like most TV shows try to get to 100 episodes in order to sell the older episodes into syndication (TNT, USA, etc) where they play over and over and over (Castle, Supernatural, L&O), etc..

[ShadowFacts]

Adalind could not bore me more right now.  I will absolutely need sedation, though, if Teresa acts like Rosalee and is all cool with Adalind.  Please no. 

[OtterMommy]

Adalind could not bore me more right now.  I will absolutely need sedation, though, if Teresa acts like Rosalee and is all cool with Adalind.  Please no. 

 

I never liked Adalind and I never got to the point where I loved to hate her, but I will say she was never boring...until this season.  Irritating?  Yes.  But not boring. Now, however, she makes me want to sleep and vomit...at the same time.

 

You know who else is boring?  Nick.  To be honest, he wasn't the most dynamic character and he really needed someone else in the scene (usually Monroe) to be really interesting.  But now?  Ugh....

[ShadowFacts]

I never liked Adalind and I never got to the point where I loved to hate her, but I will say she was never boring...until this season.  Irritating?  Yes.  But not boring. Now, however, she makes me want to sleep and vomit...at the same time.

 

You know who else is boring?  Nick.  To be honest, he wasn't the most dynamic character and he really needed someone else in the scene (usually Monroe) to be really interesting.  But now?  Ugh....

 

The sleep and vomit combo can be deadly, OtterMommy, and Adalind is not worth it!  I also think Nick has become boring, I think I posted elsewhere that I used to like him quite a bit and now do not.  Which is too bad.  Low-key is fine, Hank is low-key, too, but Nick as Adalind's lapdog is boring as hell.  What writing team ever thought that several episodes of semi-brain-dead Nick playing house with baby mama would be bringing in the viewers? 

[OtterMommy]

The sleep and vomit combo can be deadly, OtterMommy, and Adalind is not worth it!  I also think Nick has become boring, I think I posted elsewhere that I used to like him quite a bit and now do not.  Which is too bad.  Low-key is fine, Hank is low-key, too, but Nick as Adalind's lapdog is boring as hell.  What writing team ever thought that several episodes of semi-brain-dead Nick playing house with baby mama would be bringing in the viewers? 

 

I'll tell you what writing team...the one that listens only to what people on twitter and fb say.  The thing is, for the most part, that is only a handful of people who really, really love emoji's.  

 

As of the last ratings, about 3,630,000 people watched Grimm and about 15 participate in the "Nadalind" campaigns on twitter.  But that's okay, because EMOJI's!

 

If you go over the Grimm FB page, you'll see something interesting.  They post 2-3 pictures from the show a day about they get, on average, 75-150 comments on each one (and that number has been declining as the season has progressed) and, because there is sort of a "discussion" going on, that's really about about 35-75 individuals posting.

 

A few days ago, they posted a "poll"--and there so much just wrong with that concept--asking people if they should use the term "Nadalind" or "Nickalind."  Don't worry, I'll wait while you all go down some listerine to get that taste out of your mouth....Anyway, that post got over 1000 comments (so probably 300-500 different people) and, while there were some who were all over this, the majority were very much against the pairing (and against cutesy couple nicknames).

 

I'm disgusted that this poll happened but, really, it isn't surprising.  I just hope that the creative team takes a step back and realizes that they have the 15 emoji lovers, no matter what.  They also have a large group of people who are neutral on the N/A situation, but they ARE losing a huge chunk of people who will put up with a lot--I mean, we've had comas, amnesia, zombies, polyjuice potion, krampus, deviant Greek tweens with a fruitcake problem, mermaids, and fighting fire monsters with super soakers--but there is a line...and Grimm is crossing it.

[Mojeaux]

Whether or not the writers hate women is up for debate, although they sure don't know how to write women.

However, I don't have a problem with men beating the women who can kick their ass. The "everybody knows you don't hit a woman" is the sexist position, IMO. A woman who's strong enough to kick a big, strong man's ass is strong enough to get her ass kicked. You fight like a man, you better be able to take it like a man. They may or may not be trying to convey "this woman is a bad-ass" is up for grabs, but assuming they are, then yes, the women should get equal time on the fight choreography. Nothing says equality like getting the same treatment.

Disclaimer: I'm a martial artist and the "don't hit a woman" didn't fly. If you're there, you're there to learn how to defend against someone who WILL beat a woman.

I was very disturbed by the fact that Nick was willing to "lose" to Not!Juliette because she was his "love" and/or a woman.

ALL THAT SAID, Mr. Mojeaux and I broke up with Grimm after the Bloody!Meisner episode. Not even my shipping Adalind and Meisner could keep me.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I'm disgusted that this poll happened but, really, it isn't surprising.  I just hope that the creative team takes a step back and realizes that they have the 15 emoji lovers, no matter what.  They also have a large group of people who are neutral on the N/A situation, but they ARE losing a huge chunk of people who will put up with a lot--I mean, we've had comas, amnesia, zombies, polyjuice potion, krampus, deviant Greek tweens with a fruitcake problem, mermaids, and fighting fire monsters with super soakers--but there is a line...and Grimm is crossing it.

 

The producers are skating on thin ice if they are depending much at all on social media.  Their own vision should be dictating where they go and I still hope their vision includes Nick snapping out of his stupor and Adalind showing her true colors once again. 

 

 

I was very disturbed by the fact that Nick was willing to "lose" to Not!Juliette because she was his "love" and/or a woman.

 

That whole scene was very disturbing and nonsensical to me. 

 

[OtterMommy]

So, after replying the "Bud is polarizing!" poll message, my response got me thinking:

 

What a dumb poll.  (Yeah, I voted in it...go ahead, judge me).  Does TVLine know what a "polarizing character" is?  I mean, Adalind is polarizing.  She's probably the most polarizing character I've seen on aTV show in a long time.  Heck, I could even see Trubel nominated for this distinction.  But Bud?  A character who shows up once every 5 episodes and 90% of the time is just comic relief? (And the other 10% of the time he is the little guy who makes you all want to stand up and cheer).

 

"Polarizing" is a tough thing for a show.  It can work, if handled carefully.  I have to bring up the oft-mentioned Agents of Shield here.  They have a character who is very polarizing (yes, he's in the poll!) and I do think they've struggled with him a bit over the course of the series.  But they've also kept him in the background, let the rest of the characters develop their own plots, and then brought him back only when he could play a pivotal role in the central story (or, at least I hope...he's just sort of been brought back as a force in the past couple of episodes...)

 

If Bud were actually polarizing...I'll wait while you all finish laughing at that idea..Grimm actually WOULD be handling him well.  He's kept in the background and only brought into the show for a few scenes every five or so episodes.  He's present enough that we notice him and think of him as "part of the show", but absent enough that he makes an impact.

 

But, Bud isn't the polarizing character.  Adalind is.  So.....they've spent 4 years trying to shoehorn her in with plots that have little to nothing to do with the central narrative of the show.  Now, they've pushed her to the forefront and into a role that not only makes no sense whatsoever, but also negates her entire history on the show.

 

I just don't understand any of this.  

Edited November 28, 2015 by OtterMommy

[Darklazr]

I love Bud and agree he is on very rarely, but enjoy seeing him still on the show.  Juliette should have been a "Bud" like character that shows up four to six times a year depending on the story.

 

Yes, Adalind is very polarizing character now that she's had Nick's baby.

[OtterMommy]

I'm bringing in conversations from a couple of other threads here:

 

I really don't think the people writing this show are interested enough to bother making it interesting. They have so many options, and they have consistently taken the most tropey ones at every cross-road. Likewise, I do not believe there is no place they could have parked the trailer if they gave a shit about it. The show is a very thin shadow if its glorious original self, which was exploring complex ethical issues instead of handwaving and denying they are even being raised.

 

So. Much. This.  I think it really started in season 3, but didn't become apparent until late that season, but it seems like the creative team takes the easy way out every single time.  How many times have we watched an episode and been left with more questions...because nothing was ever really answered?  How many times have any of you been genuinely surprised by this show from season 3 on?  (For me...once.  When Meisner showed up in the helicopter).  I'm guessing not often because we've seen all this in one form or another before.

 

Speaking of which:

 

The baby is a big problem that they never should have introduced.  Nick knows what happens to Grimms, and this little guy has Adalind for a mother.  I agree we don't need a single dad scenario, and that Nick doesn't need to be involved with anyone at all.  Lots of times when people lose a partner to death, they aren't interested in pairing up again for years and years, no matter their age.  Hank and Wu and Renard are all seemingly happily single.  Let Monroe and Bud handle the happily married side of things, and leave it at that.

 

 

 

Adalind pregnancy #2 was the thing that convinced me that this show is in desperate need of a new creative team. I'm not going to go out on a limb and say that introducing a baby is ALWAYS the death knell of a show (although, the only times I can think when it was successful was in sitcoms...), but it is playing with fire.  When you introduce a baby into a narrative, you shift the story in a way that can't be reversed.  The show runners have made no secret of the fact that this baby was pretty much thrown in on the fly, which leads me to believe that they never thought through where this would go--and that's a big deal.  They pretty much need to have a plan for a baby character that follows them, in not up to adulthood, at least up to adolescence.  And I'm convinced that Carpenter, Greenwalt, and Kouf never thought past, "Hey...wouldn't it be cool if...."

 

Despite the crapfest we currently have, I do think/hope that the show can be turned around.  Unfortunately, it might mean clearing out Carpenter, Greenwalt, and Kouf and bringing in fresh blood.  And, unfortunately, I'm not sure NBC is willing to do that at this point.

 

(Also, I don't think Hand and Wu are "happily single."  Both have made comments over the series about how lonely their lives are.  Renard, though, I think he's enjoying his bachelorhood....)

[merylinkid]

 

Lots of times when people lose a partner to death, they aren't interested in pairing up again for years and years, no matter their age.

 

I just realized part of the reason this storyline bugged.   You know, besides the obvious, two enemies coming together to raise a child part.   Juliette JUST DIED.   He was ready to propose to her in Season.   Even at the end of last season, he couldn't bring himself to kill her because he still loved her.   Now it's just "Juliette who" as he tries to calm a colicky baby while cooking dinner with Adalind.   It's happy families like Juliette never existed.   They don't even show him compartmentalizing or having more than a moment of grief, then quickly moving on.   New house, new girlfriend.   Moving on.   

 

He doesn't have to angst all over the place.   He doesn't have to stay single forever.   But my goodness, there needs to be some acknowledgement that a long term relationship ended in a horrific fashion.   I've got cases where a long term marriage full of abuse that is finally ending in divorce has more grieving over it than this, supposedly happy, mutually benenficial relationship that only went wrong due to a SPELL at the end had.   

[TVSpectator]

I just realized part of the reason this storyline bugged.   You know, besides the obvious, two enemies coming together to raise a child part.   Juliette JUST DIED.   He was ready to propose to her in Season.   

 

Personally I think there needs to be some kind of follow up on Juliette. Where are her family asking where she went or where are her friends asking where she is?

[Darklazr]

Personally I think there needs to be some kind of follow up on Juliette. Where are her family asking where she went or where are her friends asking where she is?

 

To my knowledge, Juliette does not have any family members or at least the show never indicated there were parents, siblings or other relatives.  

 

Juliette had a job and friends, but the show basically just ignored that aspect when she went BSC during season 4.  

 

I am happy Juliette is dead and hope the show just moves on without ever seeing the woman or mentioning her name ever, again!

[OtterMommy]

To my knowledge, Juliette does not have any family members or at least the show never indicated there were parents, siblings or other relatives.  

 

In season 3, ep 2 (PTZD) there is a shot of the favorites on Juliette's phone and they are: Nick, Mom, Dad, Monroe, Hank, Rosalee.  So, at least back then, her parents ranked above Monroe...

[TVSpectator]

To my knowledge, Juliette does not have any family members or at least the show never indicated there were parents, siblings or other relatives.  

 

Juliette had a job and friends, but the show basically just ignored that aspect when she went BSC during season 4.  

 

I am happy Juliette is dead and hope the show just moves on without ever seeing the woman or mentioning her name ever, again!

 

In season 3, ep 2 (PTZD) there is a shot of the favorites on Juliette's phone and they are: Nick, Mom, Dad, Monroe, Hank, Rosalee.  So, at least back then, her parents ranked above Monroe...

 

That is the thing, we at least meet one of Juliette's friend (who turned out to be Wesen), and there were hints that she had at least a small family. I don't think that her friends and family knew that she turned into an evil crazy Hexenbiest, but apparently we are weeks after her apparent death and there is no missing person/investigation. Although, right after Chavez died, we had two FBI agents coming to Nick to ask questions about her disappearance. Now, I do like the idea of a dead Juliette but please let's explain why no one feels that a missing person, after her boyfriend quickly moves and sales their house, and has a baby with another woman, that no one is bothering looking and why no one has asked Nick where is Juliette.

[jhlipton]

But my goodness, there needs to be some acknowledgement that a long term relationship ended in a horrific fashion.   

 

On Sleepy Hollow, no one with any sense wanted Ichabod to spend much time mourning the StruggleWitch.  But even there, there was one quiet scene where he acknowledged her passing.

[OtterMommy]

I just don't understand this show.  It is almost like they are going out of their way to piss off their viewers.

• We have the Adalind/Nick pairing. Yes, there are people who just LOVE this, but there is--by any measure I can find (including ratings)--a much larger group that hates it.  Ratings ARE taking a huge hit (and I've heard all the arguments that the Neilsen ratings are outdated--which they are, but they are still important and, frankly, they are the only real measurement there is).  And they are pushing this HARD on social media..and every time they do, there are at least a few people who say they are turning off the show.
• I think most of us believe that, if not "Juliette", Bitsie Tulloch will be back soon.  Like the above, there are a large number of both sides of that one.  But, even more than "Nadalind," IF they go down this road, it is incredibly hard to course correct if it doesn't work.
• They are continually dropping story lines--and people keep asking about them.  Yes, we'll finally get resolution on the keys, but I'm not expecting that to be any good.  They've already admitted that they hadn't even thought about how to resolve it until they were writing episodes that will air only weeks before that. I have a feeling it will be some half-assed job to cross something off their checklist.  They also just expect viewers to "accept" when they're done with something--i.e. the "war" Nick supposedly won against the royals
• And this is the weirdest one yet.  They've been pushing "Grimm Christmas"--you know, Monroe's over the top fetish (which I have to admit that I quite love) and people are eating it up and saying that they just can't wait for this year's Christmas episode....except there isn't going to be one this year (as the writers have tweeted repeatedly).  So, why push something that isn't even going to happen?

 

I've said before that I don't think that shows should only do things that the viewers want.  However, I can't see how actively alienating and angering your viewer base is any better.

[ShadowFacts]

I just don't understand this show.  It is almost like they are going out of their way to piss off their viewers.

• We have the Adalind/Nick pairing. Yes, there are people who just LOVE this, but there is--by any measure I can find (including ratings)--a much larger group that hates it.  Ratings ARE taking a huge hit (and I've heard all the arguments that the Neilsen ratings are outdated--which they are, but they are still important and, frankly, they are the only real measurement there is).  And they are pushing this HARD on social media..and every time they do, there are at least a few people who say they are turning off the show.
• I think most of us believe that, if not "Juliette", Bitsie Tulloch will be back soon.  Like the above, there are a large number of both sides of that one.  But, even more than "Nadalind," IF they go down this road, it is incredibly hard to course correct if it doesn't work.
• They are continually dropping story lines--and people keep asking about them.  Yes, we'll finally get resolution on the keys, but I'm not expecting that to be any good.  They've already admitted that they hadn't even thought about how to resolve it until they were writing episodes that will air only weeks before that. I have a feeling it will be some half-assed job to cross something off their checklist.  They also just expect viewers to "accept" when they're done with something--i.e. the "war" Nick supposedly won against the royals
• And this is the weirdest one yet.  They've been pushing "Grimm Christmas"--you know, Monroe's over the top fetish (which I have to admit that I quite love) and people are eating it up and saying that they just can't wait for this year's Christmas episode....except there isn't going to be one this year (as the writers have tweeted repeatedly).  So, why push something that isn't even going to happen?

 

I've said before that I don't think that shows should only do things that the viewers want.  However, I can't see how actively alienating and angering your viewer base is any better.

 

I call it devolution.  The show is devolving in front of our very eyes.  What is this about pushing the Grimm Christmas but there isn't going to be an episode?  Is it recreational marijuana at the root of this?  I mean I've got nothing against it, but I do from time to time ask myself what are they smoking in the writer's room.

[TVSpectator]

I call it devolution.  The show is devolving in front of our very eyes.  What is this about pushing the Grimm Christmas but there isn't going to be an episode?  Is it recreational marijuana at the root of this?  I mean I've got nothing against it, but I do from time to time ask myself what are they smoking in the writer's room.

 

I think it's a combination of the lack of direction the writers are sure they want to go into (well, it seems like they don't know what they want) and also just the lack of planning ahead. If I were them I would plan to the midseason finale and then work my way from there. I get that a TV show can be canceled and things happen in real life, like with CC' pregnancy, but it would be, IMO, a better show. 

[OtterMommy]

I call it devolution.  The show is devolving in front of our very eyes.  What is this about pushing the Grimm Christmas but there isn't going to be an episode?  Is it recreational marijuana at the root of this?  I mean I've got nothing against it, but I do from time to time ask myself what are they smoking in the writer's room.

 

Judging from the rat that will be showing up, I think it is something stronger than marijuana from the corner shop....

 

It does seem like there is some sort of mind-altering substance involved.  I mean, NOTHING makes sense. 

[merylinkid]

Wait what?   No Christmas show?   No Monroe going nuts over it?   No Rosalee happily accepting that Christmas can be fun when she not defending antique train sets with a frying pan? 

 

That's it -- I am out.   No seriously.   I LOVED their fun episodes like that one.   Although Krampus scared the crap out of me.

[OtterMommy]

Wait what?   No Christmas show?   No Monroe going nuts over it?   No Rosalee happily accepting that Christmas can be fun when she not defending antique train sets with a frying pan? 

 

That's it -- I am out.   No seriously.   I LOVED their fun episodes like that one.   Although Krampus scared the crap out of me.

 

I think not having a Christmas episode is probably the second biggest mistake of this season.  This show needs some fun and it was so nice to have kind of a little "exit" from the drama and just do something fun.  Oh, and I totally used stills from the Krampus episode to, ahem, encourage good behavior in my kids once that damn Elf on the Shelf stopped working (about a day after it first came out of the box).  Trust me, it works like a charm.

 

The only thing I can think of is that they may not have a Christmas-themed episode, but they'll do something like what they did in season 1 where they have a "normal" episode, but Monroe still gets to decorate.  It's not the same, but it might stop the rioting....

[Darklazr]

What the what?!  First, no Halloween show with Monroe all excited about the holiday and the little kids showing up in their costumes.  Boo.

 

Now?  We're not getting a Christmas show with all of Monroe's trains and other ornaments?!  Boo!  Humbug!

 

How to fix Adalind and Nik?   We find out that Adalind has been in a coma this entire time after the baby died and since she is still connected to Nik via the body switch spell, she is able to see what been going on in Portland before she finally croaks.  End. Of. Story.  No muss and no fuss.  Adalind and Juliette are both dead.  There is no Kelly and Nik is living in his bunker for safety reasons.

[OtterMommy]

What the what?!  First, no Halloween show with Monroe all excited about the holiday and the little kids showing up in their costumes.  Boo.

 

Now?  We're not getting a Christmas show with all of Monroe's trains and other ornaments?!  Boo!  Humbug!

 

To be fair, we don't normally get a Halloween show.  We only got one in season 2 because, thanks to the Olympics, the season started in August instead of October, and then took a looooonng hiatus for the Olympics (we didn't get a Christmas ep that year).

 

I'm still hoping for at least some Christmas decorations in Wesen Nacht (the last episode in 2015), although I doubt it.  Even if there were some Monroe jolliness I probably wouldn't watch thanks to Nadalind (and the fact that I find the *title* of that episode to be, at the very least, insensitive.  It's one thing to mine fairy tales, AMC shows, and Bourne movies for titles.  It's another to mine the holocaust...).

[orza]

Why do you think Wesen Nacht is a play on Kristallnacht and not Stille Nacht, which would make more sense for the last episode before Chfistmas?

[OtterMommy]

Why do you think Wesen Nacht is a play on Kristallnacht and not Stille Nacht, which would make more sense for the last episode before Chfistmas?

 

Because of this (taken from the official press release):

12/11/2015 (09:00PM - 10:00PM) (Friday) : TARGETED ATTACKS ON WESEN BUSINESS OWNERS REVEAL THAT MONROE MIGHT BE IN DANGER - JACQUELINE TOBONI AND DAMIEN PUCKLER GUEST STAR - Nick (David Giuntoli) and Hank (Russell Hornsby) investigate a wave of coordinated Wesen gang vandalism that results in the death of a local business owner and the kidnapping of Monroe (Silas Weir Mitchell) and Rosalee's (Bree Turner) friend. As they dig deeper, they learn that Portland wasn't the only city hit with a wave of violence.

 

 

Sounds reminiscent of Kristallnacht to me...

Edited December 1, 2015 by OtterMommy

[ShadowFacts]

Sounds intense, but it could be that we will see a little of Monroe in Christmas overdrive, and for that I would give the writers a good grade for keeping characters in-character. 

[OtterMommy]

They are stretching out an unexplained cliffhanger or mystery of why Meisner had Trubel in the cell.

 

 

So, reading the comments on this episode and looking at the ratings, I think there is (one more) major way Grimm has screwed itself.

 

I get cliffhangers, I do.  But there is a line between a cliffhanger and stringing the audience along and Grimm crossed that line and long, long time ago.  Viewers are really sick of never getting answers and their attention span is getting shorter and shorter.  I'm not saying that Grimm has to answer every question immediately, but they need to give the audience something to assure them that there is an answer coming. 

 

Because of Grimm's history of just dropping things, the audience no longer has any confidence that they will resolve anything.  I mean, I dropped this show after two episodes this season because of a plot line that may not even come to fruition because the writers either couldn't figure out where they were going or they didn't care about "leading" the audience but thought, rather, that they should just SURPRISE everyone.

How many episodes now have we been wondering about Meisner and/or Trubel?  At this point, we've long since passed the time when it was intriguing.  Now it is just annoying...and when viewers get annoyed, they find something else to watch.  I mean, you can't argue with the ratings...viewers ARE disappearing.  

[officetemp]

What bothers me about the show is how dreary and humorless and dumb it's become.  The first season had these nice little touches that were kind of throwaway details--like how a lot of Wesens owned Volkswagens--and a lot of the writing had these sly little references that attentive viewers really enjoyed because of the intelligence factor in the scripts.  Now, the characters and actions are being written stupid for the sake of the DRAMA occurring in the nonsensical and incoherent story lines.  I don't want scripts where it's all "nod, nod, wink, wink, look how clever this is" to the audience, but I do want the writers and producers to assume that their audience is capable of following an over-arching theme to the overall narrative, as long as the story, characters and actions make sense, as much as fantasy can make sense.

[merylinkid]

Umm, why do Wesens drive Volkswagens?

[OtterMommy]

Umm, why do Wesens drive Volkswagens?

 

Because they're German?

[icewolf]

I'm still stunned that the writers did the impossible and alienated BOTH Juliette fans and Juliette haters.

Juliette haters left in season 4 when they realized she was getting another massive arc all about her. Because the boring amnesia arc was so great? (sarcasm)

Juliette fans left after she was character assassinated and killed off in the last season finale. Now the writers are just rubbing salt into their wounds by paring up Nick and Adalind, and giving them their own adorable baby. (Eww)

Adalind haters? Well the writers hate you and will forever be shoving her down your throats whether you like it or not. (Haha)

[ShadowFacts]

What bothers me about the show is how dreary and humorless and dumb it's become.  The first season had these nice little touches that were kind of throwaway details--like how a lot of Wesens owned Volkswagens--and a lot of the writing had these sly little references that attentive viewers really enjoyed because of the intelligence factor in the scripts.  Now, the characters and actions are being written stupid for the sake of the DRAMA occurring in the nonsensical and incoherent story lines.  I don't want scripts where it's all "nod, nod, wink, wink, look how clever this is" to the audience, but I do want the writers and producers to assume that their audience is capable of following an over-arching theme to the overall narrative, as long as the story, characters and actions make sense, as much as fantasy can make sense.

 

I agree that it has become dreary, humorless and dumb.  Wu still gets in a wisecrack or two, but that's about it.  In particular I can't abide how dense Nick is.  I no longer think he's much of a cop or a Grimm.  That aspect has just started getting on my nerves this season, and it's salt in the wound after how ridiculous the last half of last season was. 

[OtterMommy]

I agree that it has become dreary, humorless and dumb.  Wu still gets in a wisecrack or two, but that's about it.  In particular I can't abide how dense Nick is.  I no longer think he's much of a cop or a Grimm.  That aspect has just started getting on my nerves this season, and it's salt in the wound after how ridiculous the last half of last season was. 

 

Honestly, as much as I love Meisner (AND I DO!!!!!), I think he is making this perception of Nick even worse.  He's far more capable than Nick ever was and much more decisive.  Just think of that scene at the hospital.  Nick is running around like a chicken with his head caught off and Meisner just walks in the door and takes care of things.  If this were the first or second season, this might actually be a good thing--I'm still missing the first season Nick who had no idea of what he is doing--but we're in season 5 now and Nick is now supposed to be a pro at this...and he so, so clearly is not.

 

ETA:  We need a Meisner thread!  Anyone have a good idea for a name? Martin Meisner; He Brings the Lauffs or Martin Meisner:Showing them how it is done?  I know...both are pretty bad.  Suggestions?

Edited December 6, 2015 by OtterMommy