Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[Free]

Oh, they probably have forgotten about the Keys and also the Coins (remember them?). Personally I would like just a little explanation and then they can find a way to tie everything together. 

 

I do, I think they were mentioned during interviews for this season, but Idk how it'll pan out.

[Prevailing Wind]

Come to think of it, didn't Kelly have the coins and was going to into Mordor to get rid of them, but got distracted by something else, so she still has the coins?  Well, who's got 'em now? Diana, zipped into the back of one her plushies?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Prevailing Wind

[OtterMommy]

Come to think of it, didn't Kelly have the coins and was going to into Mordor to get rid of them, but got distracted by something else, so she still has the coins?  Well, who's got 'em now? Diana, zipped into the back of one her plushies?

 

Nick got an email from his mom saying that the royal assassination (Eric's) was making it hard for her to get to Zakynthos to destroy the coins, so she "put them somewhere safe" and then, presumably, went off to save Adalind.

[merylinkid]

How was Nick fighting for the resistance?    He was fighting for himself.   The Royals (or somebody) sent assassins to kill him.  I think the only side he was on at that point was his own and the Scooby Gang.   Larger political pictures was not there.   

 

This show is very big on telling not showing.   They need to really work on that.

 

So the one thing they listen to the fans on was the fight between Adalind and Juliette?   Yeah, because the male producers wanted to see two females fight.   I'm surprised they didn't wrestle in the mud.   That wasn't for the fans that was for their own gratification.   Look at how bad ass we made Juliette.

 

I can see not giving the fans everything they want.   You can't please everyone.   But some basics as noted like finish storylines, explaining the world in which this show takes place really should be happening whether the fans want it or not.   It's kinda show writing 101.

[Free]

How was Nick fighting for the resistance?    He was fighting for himself.   The Royals (or somebody) sent assassins to kill him.  I think the only side he was on at that point was his own and the Scooby Gang.   Larger political pictures was not there.  

This show is very big on telling not showing.   They need to really work on that.

 

Exactly, the Royals vs Resistance nonsense never panned out, it was just shrugged off when they were gotten rid of and then replaced by the new villains.

[spaulding]

Once I complained that we were getting yet another character named Cindy (one of the writers' wife's name)...why can't we have a Lucy for once?  Don'cha know, 6 weeks later, there was CCH Pounder playing a character named Lucy.  I was so proud.  And I've been fond of the actress ever since.

 

I'm so jealous.  CCH Pounder voiced Amanda Waller on the cartoon Justice League. 

 

I don't get it...this is a show that says that it wants to give the fans what they want...and then they don't.  I mean, they do in some regards.  The "biest fight" was apparently only because people wanted to see Juliette kick the crap out of Adalind (the creators have admitted this).

 

I call BS on the showrunners.  There are people who wanted some stupid Adalind/Juliette showdown, but it was an afterthought to the transformation of Juliette into some kind of badass. 

 

So the one thing they listen to the fans on was the fight between Adalind and Juliette?   Yeah, because the male producers wanted to see two females fight.   I'm surprised they didn't wrestle in the mud.   That wasn't for the fans that was for their own gratification.   Look at how bad ass we made Juliette.

 

Yeah, the Adalind/Juliette fight was some kind of love letter to Tulloch.  It was also tangent to the main goal of making Juliette into some kind of badass and giving her more screen time. 

 

The writers and Tulloch wanted to showcase Juliette at the expense of the direction of the show.  Ugh, they're all insufferable. 

 

I can see not giving the fans everything they want.   You can't please everyone.   But some basics as noted like finish storylines, explaining the world in which this show takes place really should be happening whether the fans want it or not.   It's kinda show writing 101.

 

Dropped storylines is a legitimate criticism.  Making this show about a minor character at the expense of everything else is crazy. 

 

The show needs to refocus on the WOTW.  The writers aren't good with world-building arcs; they create a new shadowy group when they can't figure out what to do with the Royals.  Now, it's nothing but drama.  

 

This show is good when it focuses as a police procedural and when it shows how wesen try to live among humans.  It doesn't need to be more than a show about a Grimm navigating his way through the world of wesen folk. 

[Free]

Dropped storylines is a legitimate criticism.  Making this show about a minor character at the expense of everything else is crazy.

The show needs to refocus on the WOTW.  The writers aren't good with world-building arcs; they create a new shadowy group when they can't figure out what to do with the Royals.  Now, it's nothing but drama.

 

Definitely, these writers can't handle story arcs at all.

[icewolf]

Grimm's Problem With Raping Men

 

The first inkling of the writers' glib attitudes towards rape came in the first or second season, when Nick and Adalind (ohhhh Adalind; we'll get to her in a minute!) are fighting, and as the means to defeat her Nick knocks her down, climbs on top of her, pins her hands down and jams his tongue into her mouth---she freaks out and bites him, swallowing his blood in the process. (This apparently depowers her species of Wesen.) As if that rather explicit rape-imagery wasn't enough, she's later seen walking home disheveled and crying, bleeding from her nose, just as if she'd actually been assaulted.
 

Starting to feel bad for her? Don't. She gets what she feels is hers. How, you ask? Why, by magically roofieing Nick's partner, of course! (I forgot to mention, Nick is a cop.) Adalind casts a spell on him through some cookies which cause Hank to be stupidly, obsessively in love with her to the point of being completely unproductive at work. Later, after their date, she brings him home and they have sex. Date-rape drug, anyone? When it's undone Hank makes a joke about having been roofied---but otherwise the incident is never mentioned again, and she never faces any real consequences for it.

 

It gets better. Later on in the second season Nick's girlfriend Juliette, and his boss Sean (again, thanks to Adalind's meddling) have become completely obsessed with one another (to the point of Sean feeling compelled to show up and sneak into her house to listen while she showers, and write whole word documents which are just her name over and over again) and while Sean is in the grips of this sexual desperation, who should come along but Adalind? Yup---they have sex, and what's more she gets pregnant from it. Again, apart from some cruel words from Sean there's not any real consequence to this. (Oh, by the by, the baby---female, of course---is apparently some super-powered 'ultimate weapon' type creature who has to be protected from Sean's enemies. So of course the menfolk fall in line to help her.)

 

In season three is one of the worst offenses in Adalind's rap sheet---she magically assumes the form of Nick's long-term girlfriend Juliette, and seduces him. (In the process removing his powers of Grimm-hood and putting those he cares about in danger, and also breaking up his previously stable and loving relationship.) At one point Nick seems to be briefly affected by this---he starts thinking back to the rape (which is never described in-show as such, by the way) and instead of sleeping, gets up to scrub the floor in the middle of the night.

 

Once again, Adalind gets pregnant from this, and in the fourth season she shows up to taunt him with the fact that she's keeping the baby no matter what and demand that he help take care of it since he's the father. She even forces him to feel it kicking, taking his hand and placing it on her stomach. 'Here, FEEL THE TANGIBLE EVIDENCE THAT I RAPED YOU!!!' that scene said. Oh, and even better? In order to undo the side effect of Nick's Grimm-removal, he and Juliette have to reenact his rape, only with Juliette taking the form of Adalind! Great way to re-traumatize the victim there; stellar job! Better still; the writers seem to believe a rapist-victim relationship is a solid foundation to call them 'romantically-linked', insisting in an interview that 'they have to try'. For the baby, you know. The rape-ling.

[OtterMommy]

Grimm's Problem With Raping Men

 

The first inkling of the writers' glib attitudes towards rape came in the first or second season, when Nick and Adalind (ohhhh Adalind; we'll get to her in a minute!) are fighting, and as the means to defeat her Nick knocks her down, climbs on top of her, pins her hands down and jams his tongue into her mouth---she freaks out and bites him, swallowing his blood in the process. (This apparently depowers her species of Wesen.) As if that rather explicit rape-imagery wasn't enough, she's later seen walking home disheveled and crying, bleeding from her nose, just as if she'd actually been assaulted.

 

Starting to feel bad for her? Don't. She gets what she feels is hers. How, you ask? Why, by magically roofieing Nick's partner, of course! (I forgot to mention, Nick is a cop.) Adalind casts a spell on him through some cookies which cause Hank to be stupidly, obsessively in love with her to the point of being completely unproductive at work. Later, after their date, she brings him home and they have sex. Date-rape drug, anyone? When it's undone Hank makes a joke about having been roofied---but otherwise the incident is never mentioned again, and she never faces any real consequences for it.

 

It gets better. Later on in the second season Nick's girlfriend Juliette, and his boss Sean (again, thanks to Adalind's meddling) have become completely obsessed with one another (to the point of Sean feeling compelled to show up and sneak into her house to listen while she showers, and write whole word documents which are just her name over and over again) and while Sean is in the grips of this sexual desperation, who should come along but Adalind? Yup---they have sex, and what's more she gets pregnant from it. Again, apart from some cruel words from Sean there's not any real consequence to this. (Oh, by the by, the baby---female, of course---is apparently some super-powered 'ultimate weapon' type creature who has to be protected from Sean's enemies. So of course the menfolk fall in line to help her.)

 

In season three is one of the worst offenses in Adalind's rap sheet---she magically assumes the form of Nick's long-term girlfriend Juliette, and seduces him. (In the process removing his powers of Grimm-hood and putting those he cares about in danger, and also breaking up his previously stable and loving relationship.) At one point Nick seems to be briefly affected by this---he starts thinking back to the rape (which is never described in-show as such, by the way) and instead of sleeping, gets up to scrub the floor in the middle of the night.

 

Once again, Adalind gets pregnant from this, and in the fourth season she shows up to taunt him with the fact that she's keeping the baby no matter what and demand that he help take care of it since he's the father. She even forces him to feel it kicking, taking his hand and placing it on her stomach. 'Here, FEEL THE TANGIBLE EVIDENCE THAT I RAPED YOU!!!' that scene said. Oh, and even better? In order to undo the side effect of Nick's Grimm-removal, he and Juliette have to reenact his rape, only with Juliette taking the form of Adalind! Great way to re-traumatize the victim there; stellar job! Better still; the writers seem to believe a rapist-victim relationship is a solid foundation to call them 'romantically-linked', insisting in an interview that 'they have to try'. For the baby, you know. The rape-ling.

 

There are not enough likes in the world for this article.

[Crim]

It gets better.

And it's not over yet! It will "get better" this season too, from what we know about Adalind's story line. Also remember the episode with the woman who had to be disfigured to avoid being raped? Since men would only rape someone with a pretty face.

[OtterMommy]

The only part I didn't like was the "Starting to feel bad for her? Don't."

 

I had a good look at that site, because I know there are certain sites like this that appear to be sensitive to men but really say horrible things about women and feminists. 

 

For instance, there's a thread entitled:

 

RE: are there places in the world that aren't feminist bias, court happy

 

 

They call govts "gyn0-centric."

 

On the same site, one guy was furious with his girlfriend, because a guy came up and grabbed her ass, and she punched him in the stomach. Some of the other guys' advice is that she just should have verbally turned him down, etc.

 

One guy does speak up and explain about the man/woman physicality dynamic, but across the board it's a bunch of men trying to tell this guy how to explain that defending herself was wrong.

 

I do not personally know any man who would say to me, "You should have just calmly explained to the gentleman that putting his hands on you without your permission was wrong."

 

The same site that decries what Adalind did is minimizing a man putting his hands on a woman without her permission. Seriously some double standard going on. 

 

I'm not saying that article doesn't make some excellent points, but I do like to look at the source.

 

Oh, and a whole thread about ummm...you know....all over her face.

 

I saw some  dog-whistle language in there that made me uneasy. I got an anti-woman vibe. Reading the whole site only solidified my original thoughts.

 

I agree with about the site...I could tell from the name of it that it was...sketchy..and looking closer (and I didn't look that close), I could tell that it definitely had its own agenda.

 

However, this particular post sums up how I feel about the entire Nick/Adalind situation better than I could.

 

ETA: I am not denying the rather disturbing other posts on that site, but it should also be noted that the person who wrote this one did not write those.  As far as I can tell, this is the only piece on the site by that poster.

Edited November 8, 2015 by OtterMommy

[OtterMommy]

I agree. I just had some trouble with them kind of tossing aside what Nick did to Adalind.

 

I don't think the writers truly understand what they're doing, and I think their excuse is, "Its MAGIC!" 

 

Juliette got Nick's mom killed? MAGIC!

A group of people ripped a baby out of her mother's arms and sent her away? MAGIC!

A woman pretends to be his girlfriend and sleeps with him, thus it's technically r*pe? MAGIC!

 

The magical defense is like an eraser for them to excuse all of the horrible behavior. 

 

Especially when the gist of this show could be summed up with "magic meets reality" or something like that.  There are rules of reality in this show. Almost anyone will die of a bullet wound (exception: the Siegbarste, although they did explain that on fairly well), there are laws that have to be followed (I know there have been discussion if wesen status should merit a suspect being treated differently and the answer is, as far as I remember, always no...), etc.  

 

So why is rape..at least when Adalind commits it..getting a special pass?  Oh yeah....MAGIC.

[formerlyfreedom]

This topic is for discussing the writing and production on Grimm, not for discussing posts on other sites about the show.

[OtterMommy]

That they provide very little explanation for a lot of things, coupled with almost no backlash for this behavior, just makes for bad writing all around. It's like everyone is trying to avoid the huge elephant in the room, and maybe if they don't mention it, you'll forget what happened before. 

 

What I also don't understand is this...why wouldn't they want to deal with the rape issue?  Seriously.  This is a crime show...rape is a crime.  While I do not condone rape in any form, I'm actually not upset that it happened (although the baby is pushing it...).  Again, not because I don't think rape is horrible, but because it was completely in line with a character.  So, why not explore that?  Not only would it be a much better story than what they have going now, but it would give a couple of actors (DG and CC) some great material to work with.

 

It's been written before that this show has a really hard time with villains who aren't killed off at the end of an episode.  This would have been an opportunity to really dig in with both Nick and Adalind and move their relationship past spite into something more cutting and, well, enemy-making.

 

Adalind was never a great villain, but they could have made her one. Yeah, she was a hexenbiest (which they pretty much established in 5.2 that all hexenbiests are awful people, just to end all those arguments about the possibility of good witches), but she was also a flippin' sociopath, as evidenced by her behavior in that time when she wasn't a hexenbiest in seasons 1 and 2.  While I don't want to be within 10 miles of one in the real world, sociopaths actually make interesting characters on TV.

 

But...no...all they give us is this rape-induced...whatever it is....

 

And, on a change of topic, I noticed something.  The Grimm Writers have their own twitter feed which is usually quite active--they frequently live-tweet episodes and then yack on about it for a few days afterwards.  However, they've been uncharacteristically quiet lately.  I mean, they aren't silent, but their traffic is down maybe 90% of what it usually is.

 

I mean, they could be busy writing...or they could be busy frantically re-writing (or it could be something else...).  In any case, it's curious.

 

ETA: Fixin' them there typos....

Edited November 8, 2015 by OtterMommy

[TVSpectator]

My theories?

 

1. By calling it r*pe, that means they have to deal with all of the implications and all of the fallout. They couldn't make Adalind a love interest, which c'mon , they totally are. 

 

2. The writers aren't up to writing that kind of serious material. Think about it. That's a BIG word, and if you're going to deal with it, you have to deal with it. Just think of how huge it would be if they opened that can of worms.

 

I think that these are the two main reasons why they won't bring up the "r" word here. If they did then they would have to bring up all of the other stuff that the both of them did, and also what Renard did. For the most part, I think that they are just trying to move past and onto the next storyline, but part of me does still think that Juliette will come back to this show. She probably won't be a regular character, but a reoccurring villain. 

[OtterMommy]

 

They wrote themselves into a corner with that too. As they postpone the reveal of Adalind's game, they lose the viewers who hate her or her and Nick together, but when (if, of course) they reveal it, they alienate the viewers that did like this shit - even more so if Juliette comes back. I normally wouldn't say that writers should consider the audience reaction too much when developing story lines, but... wtf is the Grimm team thinkin

 

And this is why a show should never try and cater to the audience's desires.

 

The creative team has not made any secret that they want to give the audience what they want (even though they seem to have selective hearing).  All that is going to do is create lots of "corners."

 

Now, with Adalind, they are in a no win situation.  Judging from what I see on the FB threads, it's pretty 50/50 between people who want Adalind to be the new heroine of the show and the people who hate her and her current situation.  There is also a fairly large, although I wouldn't say it is up to 50%, contingent that wants Juliette back.

 

Since they've set the precedent that they are going to give the audience what they want, they are going to disappoint at least 50% of their audience with this.  And, they just don't have the wiggle room right now in this show.  Shows like Grey's Anatomy can make some unpopular moves because their fan base is so huge that, if they lose some viewers, it isn't that big of a deal (they also have multiple storylines going on, so if one thing upsets people, there are about 12 different stories left...).  Grimm, however, is really hanging on by a thread right now.

 

So, who are they willing to sacrifice?  The pro-Adalind or anti-Adalind group (I think--and it isn't *just* because I'm in this group, but they should probably placate the anti-Adalinds at this point.)  Plus, they've already put in motion the return of Juliette, so how are they going to do that without alienate 60+% of the viewers?  

 

Now, add to this the ridiculous waiting game I think they have going.  Let's just play the Nick/Adalind thing out a while and see what people want?  Hmm, I think people want resolution.  I'm sure when Juliette returns, the plot will idle for a while so that the creative time can decide which way they should go based on what they think the audience wants.

 

Now, if they had been the show that had the balls to come up with a story arc and stick with it through to its end, we might not be in this position.

[Prevailing Wind]

 

-they frequently live-tweet episodes

I canNOT stress enough how much this annoys me.  I'm watching the show.  I'm allegedly invested in what's going on...and a stupid Pop-Up appears, distracting me, telling me to join the live tweeting.  Excuse me, but I'M WATCHING THE SHOW.  Oh!  I get it.  That's why the writing is so freakin' slip-shod.  Nobody's paying CLOSE attention, 'cause they're all busy live tweeting during the goddamn show.

 

Can you tell this really pisses me off?

[OtterMommy]

I canNOT stress enough how much this annoys me.  I'm watching the show.  I'm allegedly invested in what's going on...and a stupid Pop-Up appears, distracting me, telling me to join the live tweeting.  Excuse me, but I'M WATCHING THE SHOW.  Oh!  I get it.  That's why the writing is so freakin' slip-shod.  Nobody's paying CLOSE attention, 'cause they're all busy live tweeting during the goddamn show.

 

Can you tell this really pisses me off?

 

 

I agree completely.  With me, it is usually that I log onto twitter on Friday evenings (before the show comes on) to check something completely unrelated and there are pages and pages of running commentary on the show.  Ugh...thanks?  Now, not only do I know exactly what is going to happen, but I also have to spend more than a few minutes fishing for the one tweet I need.  Blech.  

 

Live tweeting, in general, is a bad thing..except during debates.    Then it is the best thing ever.

[TVSpectator]

I agree completely.  With me, it is usually that I log onto twitter on Friday evenings (before the show comes on) to check something completely unrelated and there are pages and pages of running commentary on the show.  Ugh...thanks?  Now, not only do I know exactly what is going to happen, but I also have to spend more than a few minutes fishing for the one tweet I need.  Blech.  

 

Live tweeting, in general, is a bad thing..except during debates.    Then it is the best thing ever.

 

They do the same thing on reddit for all TV shows, so I totally can understand about not wanting to see pages and pages of people's comments as it is happening. 

[OtterMommy]

or Meisner has tamed the beast.

 

This phrase pretty much made my day....you get a gold star!

 

But, you're right.  I expect this whole thing to blow up into a sloppy, angst-filled love geometric shape (because....why stick with triangles.  Let's thrown Renard in it!  Let's throw in Meisner!  Who else can we thrown in?)  Because they need to figure out a way to convince us that what they are doing is the most game-changing thing ever, even when it turns out to be exactly what we all expect.

[TVSpectator]

 I expect this whole thing to blow up into a sloppy, angst-filled love geometric shape (because....why stick with triangles.  Let's thrown Renard in it!  Let's throw in Meisner!  Who else can we thrown in?)  Because they need to figure out a way to convince us that what they are doing is the most game-changing thing ever, even when it turns out to be exactly what we all expect.

 

At this point they should just have everyone longing for every else. I can see a Trubel, Nick, Juliette, Renard, and Adalind pairing and a Trubel, Wu, Hank, Monroe, Rosalee, and Bud thing going as well. 

[OtterMommy]

 

I try.Maybe he'll tame me next.

 

 

Get in line!

 

That would be a good foreign title, by the way:  Meisner:  Taming the Beast 

[spaulding]

And this is why a show should never try and cater to the audience's desires.

 

The creative team has not made any secret that they want to give the audience what they want (even though they seem to have selective hearing).  All that is going to do is create lots of "corners."

 

Dan Harmon, the creator of Community, cares about the audience, but the audience's opinions aren't going to distract from his vision of the show.  Some people may hate the way the show continued, and others liked it.  However, the writer was amazing for the most part, and the excellent writing was something with which an overwhelming majority of Community fans agree.

 

Plus, the Community writers work very hard.  After S1, the majority of the writers left to find a less demanding writing job.  I'm still amazed that the writing continued to be excellent and cohesive after S1.

 

And, on a change of topic, I noticed something.  The Grimm Writers have their own twitter feed which is usually quite active--they frequently live-tweet episodes and then yack on about it for a few days afterwards.  However, they've been uncharacteristically quiet lately.  I mean, they aren't silent, but their traffic is down maybe 90% of what it usually is.

 

The writers are thirsty for approval and care too much about getting adulation from the fans.  They need to write good stories instead of hoping to get re-tweeted.  If they write good stories, not everybody will be happy, but at least the show will be good. 

 

I agree. I just had some trouble with them kind of tossing aside what Nick did to Adalind.

 

Response in Adalind's thread.

Edited November 9, 2015 by spaulding

[ShadowFacts]

I think that these are the two main reasons why they won't bring up the "r" word here. If they did then they would have to bring up all of the other stuff that the both of them did, and also what Renard did. For the most part, I think that they are just trying to move past and onto the next storyline, but part of me does still think that Juliette will come back to this show. She probably won't be a regular character, but a reoccurring villain. 

 

I believe the writers think they have already dealt with the rape issue(s), last week, in one line where Adalind said "Nick, we have to stop doing mean things to each other" (paraphrase).  I doubt it will come up again.  The whole thing is absurd, since the time line doesn't work at all for Nick being the father, and there has been no DNA test.  Insulting the intelligence of the audience on top of the original offensiveness is not good writing.  The only way I want to see Adalind (in teeny doses) is if it comes out that little Kelly is not Nick's, and she is her old bad/stupid self.  That's the only thing that makes sense to me, given how they've written her and the timeline they showed us.

[OtterMommy]

I was going to write something in the Adalind thread, but I think it belongs here.

 

I think the reason that a lot of stuff is dropped and not explored, is because the writers are suffering from puppet syndrome. And that is when writers take characters and bend them to their will, without any regard to the character's history or who they've been established to be. 

 

Like, obviously Nick has been on a sliding morality scale since the show started. But the thing is, nobody is calling him on anything. The show is still under the premise that Nick is just a good guy who does good things. He's good, good, good, despite all of the not-good things he's done. 

 

Adalind is bad. Then she's good when they need her to be. Then she's bad when they need her to be. Then she's good. But there's not much rhyme or reason to it,, except that at certain times they need her to act a certain way.

 

Juliette was good, good, good, until they made her horribly, terribly bad like instantaneously. Then they'll just probably make her good again.

 

Renard was bad. Then he was good. Then he wasn't a rule follower. Then he's a rule follower.

 

Who are the Royals and what is their purpose except to totally mess things up whenever they're needed but go away quietly when they're not?

 

Again, without any explanation.

 

So, I think that's why we're all scratching our heads. Characters are changed with little or no motivation behind it.

 

So much this.

 

As for Nick, what we've been told (so, take that with a pillar of salt) it sounds like Nick may start to be held for his misdeeds.  Again, we'll have to wait and see on that one.

 

But I find Renard and Adalind especially troubling.  I'll be honest, I haven't known where the eff Renard has been coming from since early in season 2.  Is he a power hungry royal?  Is he dealing with unresolved daddy issues?  Is he supposed to be Nick's fairy godfather?  I wish they would tell me, because I really have no clue.  I really want to care about him--and I'll admit that grasp madly at any straw they give me--but it's hard when they've made him into a black hole.

 

And then for Adalind...that character is a complete mess.  This last episode just, well, pissed me off.  Adalind--and, by extension, the creative team--is telling us that we need to see her as a new character because, for the first time, she's not a hexenbiest--she's a nice, kind person--and, really, everything she did was because of the biest inside her, not because of her personally.

 

This argument fails on two important points:

1 - Adalind very clearly told Nick and the gang last season that the potion was not "cure."  Juliette (and, therefore, Adalind) would still be a hexenbiest, she'd wouldn't be able to use her powers.  So, by that, she's saying that her core essence hasn't changed...but now she (the writers) are saying that it has.  So. which is it?

2 - Apparently, everyone has forgotten that there was a period of time--practically an entire season (two season halves, actually) where Adalind was NOT a hexenbiest.  They've already played that card--and they played it very differently.  During that time, Adalind was just as evil and probably more spiteful than she was when she was a hexenbiest.

 

So, the writers are just...what...just re-writing Adalind from scratch whenever she doesn't fit a mold?

[ShadowFacts]

 

The problem is the writers  half-explain everything. Perhaps if they went more in-depth as to what this potion does, people would be clear. As it is, some think were the gang was told it was a temporary fix, while others don't even remember that happening.

 

I am one who doesn't remember that.  I thought Adalind did not know exactly what would happen, and I remember thinking (I don't think I was alone) that she was being exceedingly careless drinking that while pregnant. 

 

The only way I'll not be super critical of the writing is if Adalind is now putting on a contrite act for Rosalee and Nick and Bud et al, and we'll soon see her in a furtive phone conversation or meeting with the now-sketchy Meisner.  That will be the old Adalind who is staying close to the Grimm for her own purposes, not because of the baby or that she's reformed.

[Crim]

I do remember that before she gave birth to Diana, she was going to use her as a pawn, but once Adalind held her, she became a different person. She was dependent and weepy and nice, just like she is now. She cried. A lot. To the point where after they kidnapped Diana, she got angry at herself for it and vowed not to cry anymore about it but to seek revenge.

 

She's doing the exact same thing after the birth of Kelly.

The writers probably think That's How Women Work or That's What Motherhood Means or some such nonsense. "Hormones, bro!" It would not surprise me one bit.

[OtterMommy]

I am one who doesn't remember that.  I thought Adalind did not know exactly what would happen, and I remember thinking (I don't think I was alone) that she was being exceedingly careless drinking that while pregnant. 

 

The only way I'll not be super critical of the writing is if Adalind is now putting on a contrite act for Rosalee and Nick and Bud et al, and we'll soon see her in a furtive phone conversation or meeting with the now-sketchy Meisner.  That will be the old Adalind who is staying close to the Grimm for her own purposes, not because of the baby or that she's reformed.

 

I'm also one who does not remember Adalind telling everyone that the potion was temporary--you know what, I just re-watched the scenes where she could have said it was temporary, and she never did.  She said:

1 - It wasn't a cure for Juliette, it would only suppress her powers so that she could like a somewhat normal life...and...

2 - Adalind wasn't sure it would work

 

That's all...I guess I have to give the writers, what, props?, for convincing an alarming number of viewers to remember something that didn't happen.

 

I'm with you also on Adalind's supposed contrite act.  Actually, if they went that route, it would be the first in character thing she's done all season.

[OtterMommy]

Wow. They are treating it as if the temporary suppression thing is known and not a big deal.I wasn't sure myself, since during that time I think I was fast-forwarding the alarming amount of ridiculousness going on. I was just commenting that there seemed to be some who remembered one way and some who remembered another.

 

You have no idea.

 

On another board, there is a discussion going on about this and you would not believe the mental pretzels people are making trying to convince those who actually watched the scenes and paid attention to the dialogue that everyone knew all along that the potion was temporary.  It's really pretty crazy.

 

But it does show how involved people are in this...and it blows my mind because it really is just an example of very, very bad writing.  One of two things happened:

1 - The writers were supposed to tell us earlier that it was temporary

2 - They are trying to do some of that fancy foreshadowing

 

#1 is obviously bad writing...they forgot/omitted an important piece of information and stuck it back in to the show in a very awkward way and #2 ...well, it's not great writing either....

Edited November 10, 2015 by OtterMommy

[OtterMommy]

Yeah. It really is all the way around. Since this show is notorious for retonning, I'm going with option one.

 

And trying t make sense of the writing on Grimm will send you to the funny farm in no time.

 

And I had an epiphany looking at all of the cutesy names of the episodes. The writers completely exhausted themselves coming up with episode names, and thus couldn't be bothered with making the episode make sense! They'd expended all of their creative juices, as it were. 

 

I'm not sure this it retconning.  I mean it could be, but I'm leaning towards bad foreshadowing.

 

There was a time when this show could foreshadow.  Okay, there was one time.  It was season 1 and it was the lead up to Kelly appearing.  Early on, we learned that Nick's parents were killed and he was raised by his aunt.  Then we learned that his Mom was a Grimm who was killed because she had the coins of Zakynthos. So, we knew the bare minimum about her--but it also kept her sort of under the radar of the story.  Then, she showed up and it was the big cliffhanger.  (Disclosure: I binge watched the first two seasons of this show.  If I had been watching this week by week, I might not have been quite so surprised by her appearance).  

 

However, since then, this how has been a complete disaster in this area.  We knew for 2 episodes that Nick would turn into a zombie.  We knew for 3 or 4 episodes that he would lose his Grimmness.  We knew for 3 or 4 episodes that Kelly was done for.  Now, part of this is because the creative team has a very bad habit of oversharing teasers, which is another issue.  But it is also because no one on the creative team seems to have any idea of how to build, format, and pace a story.

[ottilie]

I think the writers have a very hard job to do. This show has something like 20-30 episodes per year, and they also have to have a semi-complete story for each 40 minute episode. Try to creatively juggle all the characters, comedic interludes, and plot development with only 10 days to brainstorm - that's very hard. This show is much better than the cardboard CSI type police shows that my parents sometimes watch and is far more intelligent than most TV sitcoms.

   Plus, I like the extra thought that goes into the set, background, and staging in a real city

[Free]

But it is also because no one on the creative team seems to have any idea of how to build, format, and pace a story.

 

Exactly and it's why they've been struggling with the story arcs.

[OtterMommy]

I agree that at this point it's foreshadowing, but I believe they had to retcon in order to foreshadow. 

 

This sentence says so much....

 

 

All I can say is that they need to pay Akela Cooper (one of the writers in season 2, who wrote 2 of the best episodes) and pay her whatever she wants.....

[ShadowFacts]

 

Plus, I like the extra thought that goes into the set, background, and staging in a real city

 

I do, too.  I like a lot about the show or I wouldn't watch because I don't hate watch, I drop shows.  This one is suffering from what many good shows do after 3 or 4 seasons.  It is just hard to sustain a high level of writing year after year.  Only a few shows that I have watched have succeeded.  Grimm derailed for me the second half of last season, with the Juliette hexen arc.  Now the apparent ascendancy of Adalind compounds the problem.

[Free]

There have been other shows with a similar format, and they managed to keep it all straight. All shows have that many episodes, and it's the professionals' job to keep it all straight.

 

Yup, a better writing staff of people who know what they're doing.

[Darklazr]

I think the writers have a very hard job to do. This show has something like 20-30 episodes per year, and they also have to have a semi-complete story for each 40 minute episode. Try to creatively juggle all the characters, comedic interludes, and plot development with only 10 days to brainstorm - that's very hard. This show is much better than the cardboard CSI type police shows that my parents sometimes watch and is far more intelligent than most TV sitcoms.

   Plus, I like the extra thought that goes into the set, background, and staging in a real city

 

Daytime soap operas pump out 250 new episodes a year, so I have never bought how hard it is to write just 22 episodes for primetime.

 

Soap operas create their shows "bible" and write out long term story, plus have 30 contract actors and at least 20 something recurring characters.

Adalind stated the potion would suppress Juliette's powers, period.  There was no mention at all that it was short term.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Adalind stated the potion would suppress Juliette's powers, period.  There was no mention at all that it was short term.

 

 I think there's an even bigger problem than the potion possibly being short-term.  Adalind told Rosalee she doesn't want to be a hexenbiest at all.  Thus setting up that her powers will be coming back.  The trouble is, we already have seen how she can be de-powered, and why couldn't that happen again?  Especially since she expressed out loud that she is through with hexenbiestery.  Unless I missed something.  I think something was said about Juliette not being subject to the Grimm blood because she was a 'made' biest.  But isn't Adalind still susceptible?  And if so, why wouldn't Nick insist on it as a condition of living with her since she has been less than trustworthy, to say the least.  It was she who started everything in motion that ended up in the death of Juliette and his mother.  Why would he want to risk something catastrophic happening again?  Strip her powers and be done with it.

[Free]

Strip her powers and be done with it.

 

It's so nonsensical how it went back and forth with her powers.

[OtterMommy]

Yeah, the sexism on this show runs deep, 

 

One more example...one I hadn't even thought of until I saw a picture from early season 4 of Adalind and the pig.  

 

The thing in the cell:  I mean, I'm 99.9% sure I know who is in there, but whatever it is, we know it is female (the "howl" was definitely female and I think they used a feminine pronoun at one point).  Is anyone else bothered that this is the SECOND time we've had a woman locked in a cell and severely f'ed with?  First we had Adalind in the castle where Viktor played all sorts of mind games to "beat her into submission." It wasn't until she said she'd do whatever to get Diana (which, let's face it, she would have done anyway...no need for Viktor to go to all that trouble) that they let her out.

 

Now, we have the female in the cell who is literally being beaten into submission by a man (and I'm not going to think too hard about who the man is because I'm not yet ready to give up on my lust for Meisner).  So, twice now, the show has gone down that road.

 

The first time they did it--and I say this because it was the first time, not because it was Adalind--I didn't see a really sexist problem with it because it was showing how devious Viktor could be.  However, when the show did pretty much the exact same thing AGAIN I started to change my tune on this.

 

Folks, twice now this show has had male characters beat female characters into submission. Think about that.

 

Doing it a second time shows two things.  First of all, it's lazy writing.  For the love of all that is holy, COME UP WITH NEW IDEAS.  Secondly, it shows exactly what the creative team thinks of women. Shudder.....

Edited November 11, 2015 by OtterMommy

[ShadowFacts]

 

Now, we have the female in the cell who is literally being beaten into submission by a man (and I'm not going to think too hard about who the man is because I'm not yet ready to give up on my lust for Meisner).  So, twice now, the show has gone down that road.

 

If that is really what is happening, yes, that is very disturbing and I hate it.  I am hoping it doesn't go down like that, but as my grandfather always said, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. 

 

My initial reaction to that first scene when Chavez is still alive and she asks if anything is happening and Meisner answered something like, "nothing good", I got an impression that Juliette, if it is her, was undergoing some sort of transformation, or experimental *thing*.  I did not immediately think he was beating her.  This last time when he came out a little bloody, I wasn't so sure what that meant.  I don't know if he'd have to be beating her if she was nearly dead or severely injured the way she appeared to be when Nick thought Trubel killed her.  Do they have some treatment that the combined knowledge of Adalind and Rosalee couldn't come up with?  Is Elizabeth working with them?  Something like that would be better than Meisner beating her.  As much as I hated her actions, that would just not sit right with me.  I hope if it's her, she's in a volatile state and thrashing around or something. 

[Free]

Folks, twice now this show has had male characters beat female characters into submission. Think about that.

 

That and Adalind's existence being reduced to a baby maker.

[OtterMommy]

If that is really what is happening, yes, that is very disturbing and I hate it.  I am hoping it doesn't go down like that, but as my grandfather always said, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. 

 

True, we don't know for sure that is what is happening, but the last episode was pretty damning.

[neuromom]

That's an interesting perspective...that Meisner is beating whoever is in the cell. Because, when he came out and he was bloody, I just assumed it was the woman/cell occupant who beat up on HIM. It was mentioned up thread (or maybe it was a different thread?) regarding the possibility of the person in the cell being "reprogrammed" . And my assumption was that Meisner was getting his ass beat a little as he is doing his "reprogramming".

Like OtterMommy, im not ready to give up on my lust for Meisner either. I'm not ready to believe he's beating down anyone...yet. Besides, he would never hurt Diana! And like I posted previously, I'm going with a rapidly aged and wildly hormonal Diana in the cell...you know, so that Juliette can really really be dead. :-p

[merylinkid]

I get it is hard to write 22 episodes that you know every little thing is going to be obsessed over.   OMG, there was a lot of ferny plants in that scene, are we going to get a fairy like creature?   On the other hand, it's kinda their job.   It is what they are geting paid for.    Plenty of other writers do 22 episodes and can keep a story somewhat coherent and balance out the actors as well as they can.    Sure there will be bad eps and some actors will woefully underutilized.   But if you can't get the Writing 101 stuff right, there is a big problem.   

 

Grimm has a writing 101 problem.   They need to find writers who know that stuff.   They need to have the showrunners plan out their vision, even in rough outline form so the writers can fill in the outline.   Have. A. Plan.   And stick to it, no matter who the actor is or how the showrunners/writers feel about said actor.

[Free]

Grimm has a writing 101 problem.   They need to find writers who know that stuff.   They need to have the showrunners plan out their vision, even in rough outline form so the writers can fill in the outline.   Have. A. Plan.   And stick to it, no matter who the actor is or how the showrunners/writers feel about said actor.

 

It's a basic problem that even these writers can't seem to grasp.

[TVSpectator]

Grimm has a writing 101 problem.   They need to find writers who know that stuff.   They need to have the showrunners plan out their vision, even in rough outline form so the writers can fill in the outline.   Have. A. Plan.   And stick to it, no matter who the actor is or how the showrunners/writers feel about said actor.

 

^^^ This above is what I think that the writing needs to have on this show. It seems that they are good with the ideas, but they never seem to follow through on them and yes, I am talking about explaining stuff like what are The Keys, what are the Royals, what are the resistance, what are the Coins, how does this have to do with the world. It seems that they have brought up some really good and interesting ideas, but there is no follow through and instead we move on to the next big idea.

Edited November 12, 2015 by TVSpectator

[OtterMommy]

^^^ This above is what I think that the writing needs to have on this show. It seems that they are good with the ideas, but they never seem to follow through on them and yes, I am talking about explaining stuff like what are The Keys, what are the Royals, what are the resistance, what are the Coins, how does this have to do with world. It seems that they have brought up some really good and interesting ideas, but there is no follow through and instead we move on to the next big idea.

 

It was the Royals story line that killed me.  I mean, I didn't even think it was that great of a story line, but they spent so much time and energy on it.  I mean, the royals were introduced in season 1 and carried through the 4th season, where it the crescendo grew until...season 5 when they were completely forgotten about.  I mean, 10 minutes into the first episode and Nick is convinced the royals--who he saw with Juliet...and HE KILLED ONE OF THEM!!!!!....were not responsible for anything.

 

Uh, really?  

 

Then we get this crap letter from the writers saying, basically, that Nick "won" and that story line is complete.  What the what?

 

Honestly, I can't believe that NBC let them get away with that crap.

[Prevailing Wind]

 

And stick to it, no matter who the actor is or how the showrunners/writers feel about said actor.

...or who gets pregnant.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Look at that! Occasional death seems to be a thing where if you just wait it out, it stops happening! It's no big deal. If you change color and stop breathing but then are okay a few minutes later, just treat it like the common cold.

 

Right, it's a super-hexenbiest thing that Adalind might have, too.  You don't need to breathe all the time! 

[Free]

It was the Royals story line that killed me.  I mean, I didn't even think it was that great of a story line, but they spent so much time and energy on it.  I mean, the royals were introduced in season 1 and carried through the 4th season, where it the crescendo grew until...season 5 when they were completely forgotten about.  I mean, 10 minutes into the first episode and Nick is convinced the royals--who he saw with Juliet...and HE KILLED ONE OF THEM!!!!!....were not responsible for anything.

 

Uh, really?  

 

Then we get this crap letter from the writers saying, basically, that Nick "won" and that story line is complete.  What the what?

 

Honestly, I can't believe that NBC let them get away with that crap.

 

Won what?  The Royals barely interacted with our main characters at all before being taken out and they wasted 4 seasons on them.