Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[OtterMommy]

I can understand the first Adalind pregnancy because Clair Coffee was actually pregnant in real life, but with this second one, I don't understand why they wrote that storyline at all. 

 

Claire Coffee was actually pregnant for her 2nd TV pregnancy, not her first one.  Still, it made no sense--her first pregnancy actually did make some sense in the story (she got pregnant in order to sell the baby to get her powers back), the second one?  I think the fact that her (Adalind's) pregnancy wasn't even in the plans for the season until halfway through the year should tell you something. 

The whole Viktor plot sucked. It was Viktor that started this whole HexenJuliette mess since HE told Adalind do that creepy sex spell. There was no resolution with the character since he just left in the middle of the season. It probably had something to do with Alexis Denisof being bored out of his mind with the role, not that I blame him.

 

In a better written show, Nick would have killed his ass, or given him a beating to send him back to generic European country.

 

I think you are right about Viktor.  It is one thing to film in Portland if you have a good, sold role.  It is another thing if you show up for an episode here and there and, even then, NOTHING HAPPENS with your character.  I have a suspicion that Viktor was never really supposed to leave and Kenneth was never really supposed to, well, exist.  I think Denisof got fed up (and got another job) and TPTB had to think quick and come up with something.

[TVSpectator]

Claire Coffee was actually pregnant for her 2nd TV pregnancy, not her first one.  Still, it made no sense--her first pregnancy actually did make some sense in the story (she got pregnant in order to sell the baby to get her powers back), the second one?  I think the fact that her (Adalind's) pregnancy wasn't even in the plans for the season until halfway through the year should tell you something. 

Really, she was actually pregnant in real life during  the second storyline (the one involving Nick's maybe baby)? For some reason I thought that she was pregnant during the first storyline ..... As with having her have another pregnancy, as a storyline, could it be better than putting her literally on a bus for a few months (like what they did to Rosalie)? 

 

Edit: Okay so I thought about this for a second and no, it's not better than putting her on a bus. I mean they can still do it with her character; all they need to do is say that there are more Royals that are alive and they are out to get Adalind for some reason. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by TVSpectator

[OtterMommy]

Really, she was actually pregnant in real life during  the second storyline (the one involving Nick's maybe baby)? For some reason I thought that she was pregnant during the first storyline ..... . 

 

It was definitely the second one.  She had her baby within a day or so of the season 4 finale.

[Darklazr]

I like Alex Denisof and did not mind Viktor's role on the show.  Viktor at first was rather ruthless and toward the end seemed rather bored whether or not he actually found Adalind's kid before the King replaced him with Viktor.  

 

It would have made more sense for Adalind to have seduced the King and become his new mistress in order to get back at Renard, instead of bedding and having a baby with Nik.

 

I, too, like CC and that goes back to when she was on General Hospital.

 

Juliette in very, very small doses is what the show should have maintained until she died a violent death in the end!

[Free]

or it could be that they realized that they had lost complete control of the character.

 

That certainly describes the writing, especially that awful arc where it felt completely bipolar at times with her character that many people didn't know what they were going for.

[OtterMommy]

That certainly describes the writing, especially that awful arc where it felt completely bipolar at times with her character that many people didn't know what they were going for.

 

I agree (with the sentiment that the writers lost control of the character of Juliette) ... nothing she did made sense.  I could see where they were trying to bring her under control--with her talking about how she finally gets to be like everyone else, but it didn't fit with the scene that came before it or after it.  Couple with the fact that it was, well....it wasn't performed well.  While good acting can't save bad writing, it can make it look not quite so bad.

 

Claire Coffee is a good example of this--Adalind is very, very badly written.  In fact, I'd say she is far worse than Juliette ever was until she became a hexenbiest.  Yet, Claire Coffee can still deliver a line in a way that, at least, might get a laugh (even if that was not the writer's intent).  Does it excuse the writing?  No.  Does it make me like her character more?  If so, only very slightly and, still, any affection I hold for the figure who shows up on the screen as Adalind is for Claire Coffee, not "Adalind."  But it does make things a bit more watchable.

 

Juliette, on the other hand, started out being, well, appropriately written.  Then they--and that can be anyone from the show runners to the writers to Bitsie Tulloch--tried to expand the role.  It was clunky, but I think it could have been easier to swallow with better acting.  But, by the time we got to Hexen-Juliette, the character was so far gone that I don't think they could have done anything to "save" her.

[Free]

I agree (with the sentiment that the writers lost control of the character of Juliette) ... nothing she did made sense.  I could see where they were trying to bring her under control--with her talking about how she finally gets to be like everyone else, but it didn't fit with the scene that came before it or after it.  Couple with the fact that it was, well....it wasn't performed well.  While good acting can't save bad writing, it can make it look not quite so bad.

 

Her character and the storyline was completely all over the place.

[Crim]

Claire Coffee is a good example of this--Adalind is very, very badly written.  In fact, I'd say she is far worse than Juliette ever was until she became a hexenbiest.  Yet, Claire Coffee can still deliver a line in a way that, at least, might get a laugh (even if that was not the writer's intent).  Does it excuse the writing?  No.  Does it make me like her character more?  If so, only very slightly and, still, any affection I hold for the figure who shows up on the screen as Adalind is for Claire Coffee, not "Adalind."  But it does make things a bit more watchable.

At this point, it doesn't make things more watchable for me. The thing is that when the writing sucks on a large scale, an actor delivering a line in a watchable way, especially when it was not the writer's intent, does not help the plot and character arcs being huge messes. In a movie, yes, a great actor can overcome bad material, can even transform it by delivering a performance that was not fully intended in the script, but imo in Grimm it just snowballs into an inconsistent potpourri of fails.

[OtterMommy]

Taken from the Juliette thread:

 

It was all done...messily.  After the fact, the writers and the show runners refused to confirm if the deed had actually been done or not.  I guess, though, that is not the real issue with all that.  The last half of season 4 was riddled with last minute bizarre edits (it was actually riddled with a lot of bad things, but there was a lot of very last minute--and, by that, I mean in the week preceding the episode--editing) which makes me think that someone realized that they were heading in the wrong direction and they were trying, desperately, to keep viewers.

So, my theory is that Renard and Juliette were supposed to have slept together--and there was probably much more of them that no one saw (there were numerous interviews with the cast saying that Renard was going to do something Nick could never forgive and they would never be able to work together again, yada yada yada...but nothing even remotely close to that ever happened).  Then, when the fans did a collective "blech," TPTB tried to write it off.

I guess when a large number of fans start tweeting and facebooking that they are not ever going to watch your show again--and the ratings show that they aren't bluffing--you might panic a bit.

 

 

I've been re-watching season 4 to see if it is better in a second, more condensed viewing (spoiler: it isn't) and I'm more convinced than ever that they did a massive, half-assed, last-minute edit to this season.

 

Renard's betrayal of Nick is not the only thing that we were told was going to happen that never materialized.  There are countless interviews with the show runners saying that they were setting Juliette up to be the big bad from season 5 forward.  And then she's dead?  We also know that Adalind's 2nd pregnancy was thrown in at pretty much the last minute (and pretty obviously without any serious thought) and that they were editing ep22 AFTER ep 21 aired.  I looked back on some twitter accounts and it looks like they try to have episodes "in the can" at least 4 weeks before they air...and all of a sudden they are still editing just days before the air date?

 

My theory is that the big cliff hanger at the end of season 4 was supposed to be whatever is going on between Trubel and Chavez.  The original plan was for Juliette to survive and team up with the Royals (as evidenced by her getting into the helicopter with the king).  They didn't think through the whole thing enough to NOT have Juliette get into he helicopter or to have some explanation for her to be at Nick's later that evening.  I also suspect that Meisner was also a last minute addition to answer the pleas from a female contingent of fans, but I approve of that!  

 

So, I'm interested--but also wary--of how season 5 is going to play out.  And I really don't have much, if any, confidence in the show runners and writing team at this point.

Edited October 8, 2015 by OtterMommy

[OtterMommy]

Taking from the 5.1 thread because, let's face it, this is so much bigger than one episode...

 

I'm sick of the writers.  I'm done with this show if they don't properly establish somethings:

-WTF are the royals?  Are they human, wesen, royal grimms?
-the other 11 royal house holds, one of which is Japanese but all of them participated in all the crusades
-the powerful coins that Kelly had which she needed to drop in a volcano and didn't
-stupid keys
-why is Diana special when her and Renard are basically the same

It's been 5 seasons, instead of adding more antagonists, how about explaining some of the ones that have already been brought up in the show.  Like freaking Adalind the serial rapist.  She's raped two people and we're suppose to feel some sort of sympathy towards her because she brought a rape baby to term?  She still raped Nick and Hank....wtf.

If Juliette is brought back as some sort of science experiment/super hexenbeist, I'm just going to lost my shit.  Hey show runners, she's freaking boring and I'm not going to sit through another season of this.  If she's still alive she's going to keep going after Nick/Adalind and the rape baby because she's a boring character.

 

 

Kouf and Greenwalt and their writing team have worked themselves into quite a pickle.  They can blame basketball or schedule changes or whatever for the drop in ratings, but the cold truth of it is that they lost viewers last season because they pissed them off (and they did so badly...I mean, the last half of that season was just all around badly done).

 

So, they have 2 problems now...they need to try to regain viewers, which is never easy when you've lost the trust of your audience, and they need to make sure they don't lose any more.  All this happened because they've tried to cater to all the different viewpoints of the viewing audience.  If they had come up with a long-ranging plan for the series (heck, if they could even plan out one season and stick to it!), and concentrated on putting the best story they could together and had some faith in the people watching that they would choose quality over pandering, this show would be so much better.  Instead, they are now have to deal with these cold hard facts:

• When viewers said they were done with the show last season, they meant it (and the ratings show)
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if Nick and Adalind become romantically involved (I'm guilty)
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if Juliette is not dead
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if Juliette is dead
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if the don't close up some of their open story lines
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if they mess with Monroe and Rosalee (also me...)

 

So, what are they going to do?  They've put themselves in an impossible situation and now have to look to find what path will be the least harmful to the shows future.

Edited November 1, 2015 by OtterMommy

[merylinkid]

The writers/show runners/whoever lost control in season 1 when they changed Renard from a big bad to an ally of Nick's.   Why?   Necause they decided they liked Sasha Ruiz.   Then they liked CLaire Coffee so they had to keep her around.   Then DG and BT started dating.   No way you can kill off the lead actor's real life girlfriend.   Oh and Claire Coffee got pregnant so they had to write in Adalind's second pregnancy.  

 

Notice a pattern here?    The show is letting real life events influence show events.   The show is fictional.    They are writing about Renard, Nick, Juliette, et al, not the actors.    They need to remember that and write what is happening in the Portland, Oregon of THIS show.   Not the Portland, Oregon of the real world.   Nothing happening in the real world should influence their plan for the events in the fictional world they created.   So what Claire Coffee got pregnant, there was no reason for Adalind to be prengant at that moment.   So what if DG and BT are dating, if the original plan was to kill her off (and I question they HAD a plan, but go with it here) then you kill her off.   DG and BT should be able to weather not being together 17 hours a day.   They shouldn't take it personally if these characters named Nick and Juliette are split up.   

[SimoneS]

I never knew or noticed this writing thread. I have been thinking about David Greenwalt. He was the executive producer of Angel. He had left by season 4 when Whedon made the horrible decision to write Charisma Carpenter's pregnancy into an already struggling show. The ratings did not rebound and the repulsive Connor/Cordelia pregnancy damaged the show and drove away more viewers. So Greenwalt should have known better writing in Coffee's pregnancies, that he did not just once, but twice shows that he has an ego as big a house.

Edited November 1, 2015 by SimoneS

[OtterMommy]

I never knew or noticed this writing thread. I have been thinking about David Greenwalt. He was the executive producer of Angel. He had left by season 4 when  Whedon made the horrible decision to write Charisma Carpenter's pregnancy into an already struggling show. The ratings did not rebound and the repulsive Connor/Cordelia pregnancy damaged the show and drove away more viewers. So Greenwalt should have known better writing in Coffee's pregnancies, that he did not just once, but twice shows that he has an ego as big a house.

 

 

Really?  I never knew that--but then, I never watched Buffy or Angel.

 

But, yeah..what was he thinking?  The fact that NBC just signed another contract with these two (Greenwalt and Kouf) over the summer is really a head scratcher.  I think the network really likes this show--it isn't their best performer by a longshot, but it is stable in a difficult time slot.  Yet, the show did take a big hit last season and, so why reward the two people who actual drove away viewers.

 

Frankly, I think it would be in NBC's best interest to get rid of both of them and bring on a new creative team....

[Clanstarling]

Taking from the 5.1 thread because, let's face it, this is so much bigger than one episode...

 

 

Kouf and Greenwalt and their writing team have worked themselves into quite a pickle.  They can blame basketball or schedule changes or whatever for the drop in ratings, but the cold truth of it is that they lost viewers last season because they pissed them off (and they did so badly...I mean, the last half of that season was just all around badly done).

 

So, they have 2 problems now...they need to try to regain viewers, which is never easy when you've lost the trust of your audience, and they need to make sure they don't lose any more.  All this happened because they've tried to cater to all the different viewpoints of the viewing audience.  If they had come up with a long-ranging plan for the series (heck, if they could even plan out one season and stick to it!), and concentrated on putting the best story they could together and had some faith in the people watching that they would choose quality over pandering, this show would be so much better.  Instead, they are now have to deal with these cold hard facts:

• When viewers said they were done with the show last season, they meant it (and the ratings show)
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if Nick and Adalind become romantically involved (I'm guilty)
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if Juliette is not dead
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if Juliette is dead
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if the don't close up some of their open story lines
• There are people WHO WILL quit watching if they mess with Monroe and Rosalee (also me...)

 

So, what are they going to do?  They've put themselves in an impossible situation and now have to look to find what path will be the least harmful to the shows future.

So much this.

 

I far prefer showrunners who have a clear vision of what they want to do - and then do it come hell or high water - without pandering to the audience. But the emphasis is, of course, on clear. What they do has to make sense in the context of the universe they create. It's okay if leave something a little vague at first, as long as they a) know exactly what they're doing with it and b) don't keep it vague for too long. Let's call it Chekov's plot line. If you introduce something in a season, it damn well should pay off in that season (or explained well enough to set stage for the next phase of the plotline in the next season). 

 

On the other hand, a very different show, Babylon 5, had things that didn't pay off until later seasons - but they were things that seemed straight-forward in the season they were introduced. I remember re-watching to introduce my husband and constantly saying things like "that's important in season 3!" But in that season, it was just a comment that made sense at the time, in the context in which it was introduced. And the later season revealed another context. of course, on that show, the showrunner also wrote more than 90% of the episodes, so he didn't forget what happened. AND he had backup plans for things going wrong in real life, so he didn't change things willy nilly when an actor became unavailable, etc.

[rubyred]

I think once the show got a full order for season 4, season 5 was a gimme, just because that's the magic number for syndication. That doesn't guarantee, however, that season 5 is going to be any good, or at least fulfill ANY off the potential it's always had but never fully executed.

 

Last season was so weird, I remember noticing how bouncy and beautiful Claire Coffee's hair was and just as I was thinking huh, what's that about I noticed she was pregnant and bam, they wrote it in. Upping the hair and makeup game, more closeups, etc, are tv shorthand for pregnant actress, but it hadn't occurred to me they'd have a second pregnancy so soon after the first. LAZY.

 

Juliette has been problematic for so long, but I think the writers refuse to see it, and double down on the wrong things. She could have been a Big Bad simply by spiriting Diana off. But no, they had to have her complicit in Kelly's death AND destroy the trailer. That IMO made her an unredeemable monster who deserved to die, and having Trubel deliver the killing blow was just right. BUT NOW...

 

If they are seriously going down this "cure Juliette" route (speculation, not spoiled) when they spent every opportunity last season saying she couldn't be cured, it can't happen, it's impossible, blah blah, then they can go fuck themselves, especially if she gets "cured by love." Ugh. These writers don't know how to write romance: Silas and Bree sold Monroe and Rosalee, not the writing. And even though he's gotten better, I don't want to see Giuntoli play any more love-stricken angst, it's not his forte.

 

Sometimes I get so exhausted by how shows compromise their own narratives by 1) not having a longterm plan or endgame and 2) allowing favoritism to dictate casting. Sure Claire Coffee is good, but that character should not still be a threat in season 5. And even though I like Sasha Roiz juuuust fine, I think it would have been a more interesting role for him to remain an adversary or at least work at cross-purposes with Nick.

 

Frankly I think they got rid of the trailer because it meant they'd have to continue worldbuilding and after four seasons of doing the bare minimum, they're not going to start now.

[OtterMommy]

Sometimes I get so exhausted by how shows compromise their own narratives by 1) not having a longterm plan or endgame and 2) allowing favoritism to dictate casting. Sure Claire Coffee is good, but that character should not still be a threat in season 5. And even though I like Sasha Roiz juuuust fine, I think it would have been a more interesting role for him to remain an adversary or at least work at cross-purposes with Nick.

 

You know what?  I like villains...at least the really meaty evil ones.  My all-time favorite character on TV was JR E\wing---and he was evil even when he wasn't!  

 

Season 1 Renard was fantastic.  Heck, I'd probably even like Adalind (did I just say that?) if she were a decent villain.  I get that Sasha Roiz is apparently the sweetest person on the planet, but that doesn't mean he can't play evil.  Because he can...really, really well.  

 

But no...now we have an actor completely wasted as Nick's fairy godfather and why? Because the writers and/or Kouf and Greenwalt didn't have the balls to keep him a villain.

[Clanstarling]

You know what?  I like villains...at least the really meaty evil ones.  My all-time favorite character on TV was JR E\wing---and he was evil even when he wasn't!  

 

Season 1 Renard was fantastic.  Heck, I'd probably even like Adalind (did I just say that?) if she were a decent villain.  I get that Sasha Roiz is apparently the sweetest person on the planet, but that doesn't mean he can't play evil.  Because he can...really, really well.  

 

But no...now we have an actor completely wasted as Nick's fairy godfather and why? Because the writers and/or Kouf and Greenwalt didn't have the balls to keep him a villain.

He doesn't even have to be a villain - just someone with an strong agenda and desires of his own that don't match up with the Grimm. Someone who makes stuff happen instead of someone stuff happens to. I had no idea Sasha was a sweetie, but both in Caprica and in the first season of Grimm, he brought a lot of complexity to the table. I miss that complexity. Especially since, in terms of cast, he was the reason I watched in the first place.

Edited November 1, 2015 by clanstarling

[ShadowFacts]

Where I part ways with a show is when I feel the writing is insulting.  This almost always happens with death/resurrection because it's just so cheap.  If they want drama and anguish, what's wrong with having the person be gravely wounded or ill, and be revived by paramedics, or slowly get better, or just outright kill the character.  None of this middle ground of no body being found, some kind of transformation, etc.  Another offensive writing ploy is asking the audience to have sympathy for a character who has been consistently heinous and awful, because they have now fallen on hard times.  I believe merylinkid is onto something with the thesis that the producers like certain actors and let that influence their choices.  It might be a loss of objectivity that makes them derail the planned plot, if they have one.

[Darklazr]

Renard can still be a badass when it comes to all things Royal, the keys, and his own personal drama from being booted from his Royal family.

 

Juliette should have died during season one.

 

Adalind and her baby drama should have all died at the end of season 4, along with Trubel.

 

I want the wesen of the week story, Nik's journey as a Grimm, finding the last key, etc...

[Crim]

He doesn't even have to be a villain - just someone with an strong agenda and desires of his own that don't match up with the Grimm. Someone who makes stuff happen instead of someone stuff happens to.

I'd go one step further: he doesn't even have to have a conflicting agenda, he just has to do something relevant. But TPTB seem to only be able to write for him to have a reason to show up, which is a problem they had with pretty much all supporting characters at some point. At times I've wondered if certain story lines were written just to have particular actors on the show instead of an overarching plot that was supposed to lead somewhere, hence those story lines were abruptly ended or abandoned when something else came up. Liking actors and wanting them on the show is fine - it probably happens really often, but it's handled in less clumsy ways than on Grimm.

 

I've come to wonder just what the story even was for Grimm. Was there some long-term plan or just the concept? I'm rewatching both BtVS and Person of Interest now and, while they both have great continuity, PoI is one story from the beginning, with CotW episodes (some introducing story elements revealed later as such), while in BtVS each season is a story with its distinct theme, held together by great sense of characterization (which fits, since coming of age was the conceit). But, actually, both have one thing that makes them work and Grimm totally lacks: a real sense of show runners vision. That's when I realized that Grimm could solve annoying plot points (alas, it's not), could bring in new writers, could promise anything and everything, and it won't really help.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Crim

[Free]

I've come to wonder just what the story even was for Grimm. Was there some long-term plan or just the concept? I'm rewatching both BtVS and Person of Interest now and, while they both have great continuity, PoI is one story from the beginning, with CotW episodes (some introducing story elements revealed later as such), while in BtVS each season is a story with its distinct theme, held together by great sense of characterization (which fits, since coming of age was the conceit). But, actually, both have one thing that makes them work and Grimm totally lacks: a real sense of show runners vision. That's when I realized that Grimm could solve annoying plot points (alas, it's not), could bring in new writers, could promise anything and everything, and it won't really help.

 

I honestly don't think they have one at all, which is why everything is falling apart because there was never a solid foundation, S1 had great ideas that were squandered and it only got worse from there.

 

In Grimm, what was the point of the Royals?  Or the new villains?  Or the keys/map that's been dragged out so long?  They literally destroyed a important trailer full of Grimm backstory.

[OtterMommy]

I'd go one step further: he doesn't even have to have a conflicting agenda, he just has to do something relevant. But TPTB seem to only be able to write for him to have a reason to show up, which is a problem they had with pretty much all supporting characters at some point. At times I've wondered if certain story lines were written just to have particular actors on the show instead of an overarching plot that was supposed to lead somewhere, hence those story lines were abruptly ended or abandoned when something else came up. Liking actors and wanting them on the show is fine - it probably happens really often, but it's handled in less clumsy ways than on Grimm.

 

I've come to wonder just what the story even was for Grimm. Was there some long-term plan or just the concept? I'm rewatching both BtVS and Person of Interest now and, while they both have great continuity, PoI is one story from the beginning, with CotW episodes (some introducing story elements revealed later as such), while in BtVS each season is a story with its distinct theme, held together by great sense of characterization (which fits, since coming of age was the conceit). But, actually, both have one thing that makes them work and Grimm totally lacks: a real sense of show runners vision. That's when I realized that Grimm could solve annoying plot points (alas, it's not), could bring in new writers, could promise anything and everything, and it won't really help.

 

You know, show runners CAN be fired.  It has happened quite often in TV history.  This is one of my reasons why my frustration is now extending to NBC (the other one is that they continually turn a blind eye to this show's depictions of sexual assault).  They could look at this show and say, "We have a great premise, it performs adequately at the moment, but it could do better, but the viewership is dropping and those who are staying aren't happy.  We need to step in and change something."  But, no...what do they do?  Sign Greenwalt and Kouf to new 2 year contracts!

 

Look, I really, really like so much about this show--the cast is great (even the character I can't stand is played by a pretty great actress), the premise is unique and intriguing, it's local (to me!) and it has a great deal of love for its home....but I'm just getting worn down by the crap story crafting and horrific writing they keep giving us--and both of these could easily be fixed with a little house cleaning.

[Free]

You know, show runners CAN be fired.  It has happened quite often in TV history.  This is one of my reasons why my frustration is now extending to NBC (the other one is that they continually turn a blind eye to this show's depictions of sexual assault).  They could look at this show and say, "We have a great premise, it performs adequately at the moment, but it could do better, but the viewership is dropping and those who are staying aren't happy.  We need to step in and change something."  But, no...what do they do?  Sign Greenwalt and Kouf to new 2 year contracts!

 

And that's exactly why I don't think anything will change, NBC doesn't seem to care, neither do the writers.

[Bort]

You know, show runners CAN be fired. It has happened quite often in TV history.

A show runner will get fired when A, they take a previously successful show and run it into the ground until the ratings are abysmal. (This is most common on really long running shows like soap operas, but it did happen on Revenge after season 2.)

Or B, if the actor working conditions are poor enough that they threaten to walk (this happened on NCIS).

At any rate, Grimm doesn't really have either of those problems and if option A were to occur, NBC would likely just cancel the show rather than replace show runners.

[OtterMommy]

Did any of you see this?

 

http://www.nbc.com/a-note-from-the-grimm-writers-room

 

Is it just me, or is it...strange.  Is this a thing, for writers to write letters to viewers telling them to keep watching the show?

 

I don't know, the whole thing stinks of "Please don't give up on us..." to me.

[TVSpectator]

I think that it's just a promo card telling the viewers/fans that this season will be different. 

[Prevailing Wind]

I think it's bullshit.

[ShadowFacts]

It seems a little desperate. 

[Free]

I think that it's just a promo card telling the viewers/fans that this season will be different. 

 

If it was coming from better writers, this could've meant something, but otherwise...

 

Did any of you see this?

http://www.nbc.com/a...mm-writers-room

Is it just me, or is it...strange.  Is this a thing, for writers to write letters to viewers telling them to keep watching the show?

I don't know, the whole thing stinks of "Please don't give up on us..." to me.

 

I have actually seen it from other shows, but like this, they were all desperate.

[icewolf]

They really aren't planning to give us ANOTHER Juliette focused and heavy season like season 2 and 4 right? Even after such loud negative reactions from so many fans?

How can anyone be this stupid?

BUT THIS SHOW, THESE WRITERS.

Edited November 3, 2015 by icewolf

[Crim]

They really aren't planning to give us ANOTHER Juliette focused and heavy season like season 2 and 4 right? Even after such loud negative reactions from so many fans?

How can anyone be this stupid?

BUT THIS SHOW, THESE WRITERS.

It's not like replacing Juliette with Adalind-and-yet-another-baby was a smart, promising move to begin with. That was enough to show the writers are hearing very... selectively, to say the least.

[Actionmage]

The writers' note, from Otter Mommy's link:

Well, we blew it all up.

 

The "way things were" as Nick and all of us knew it - is gone.

 

Nick won. It cost him. It cost him dearly in ways that even he can't understand. Ways that we will explore in Season 5. But Nick defeated the Royals.

 

He won because he's so good at his job that he's changed the way Grimms work. He wasn't a lone wolf like his Aunt Marie. He didn't run away from his old life to focus on being a warrior like his mom. Instead, he surrounded himself with a network of people that he trusts and loves. He befriended Wesen; he built bridges instead of burning them. He's realized his greater destiny, and it will impact the world.

 

Now, something's coming. Something big, terrifying and completely unknown. And it's coming to Portland. Nick will be tested. Our favorite Grimm can win a battle, but can he fight a war?

 

Grimmsters and Grimmlins, we're completely upending Nick's life. It's exciting on every level. We can't wait for you to experience Nick's journey. When our fearless leaders, showrunners David Greenwalt & Jim Kouf, laid out the season's skeleton, the writers' room had a new energy. Like Nick finding his new purpose in Season 5, we saw all new avenues to explore, new Wesen, new secrets, new friends and new enemies all out there just waiting for us to break these stories and find them.

 

It's a Grimm New World. Thank you for coming along with us.

 

These words; I don't think they mean what they think they mean.

 

Nick "won" against the Royals? There are supposed to be 7 houses in total. Killing a handful of family members doesn't win anything but a blood feud. It wasn't even Pyrrhic, in that by the time Teresa shot Juliet, Nick was at peace with the idea of Juliet dead. (Still loves the non-hexen'd Juliet, but , still, he loved that woman.)  We are lead to believe that Chavez and shadow/Wesen FBI have taken Teresa. If Chavez/ her group is working for the Royals, there has been nothing leading to that and so it would feel like something pulled from their lower hindquarters.

 

He won because he's so good at his job that he's changed the way Grimms work.

 

How are we supposed to know that? We've only met five Grimms and two are dead  of death and one is supposed to be beheaded, but we are all hoping it's not true. Josh has been in story Limbo since Teresa came back to Portland and now she is MIA. (No, not in Miami. Neither Florida or Ohio.) There hasn't been any e-vites to the big convention at the Hard Rock in Vegas, or wherever Grimms kick back, relax and share notes, so how are we supposed to know this? Nick is a game-changer in Portland, OR, USA; there is no doubt about that.  The world-building that would let us know that fact- as opposed to the ever-shifting mind-scape of the writing staff- hasn't been on my screen. Only a small number of local Portland wesen know not to be scared witless when Nick reveals himself now. He's still a rumor, what with his period of powerlessness.

 

It's exciting on every level.

 

To be fair, since we have only had one episode, this could be true. I didn't feel much excitement  watching the episode because I was waiting for things I knew I wasn't going to enjoy to happen. Some did. I was excited about seeing the cast ( except the fake Kelly head, which I kept expecting to open her eyes and give some vague warning to Nick).  I can't get excited at the very-possibly-NOT-Nick's kid, no matter how many of Nick's relatives get naming shout-outs. I can't with Who's In The Cell with Meissner. 

 

I will hang in there because I'm four seasons in and I'm curious. The writers should know how to keep the audience curious or it won't be fun for any of us.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Actionmage

[OtterMommy]

Nick "won" against the Royals? There are supposed to be 7 houses in total. Killing a handful of family members doesn't win anything but a blood feud. It wasn't even Pyrrhic, in that by the time Teresa shot Juliet, Nick was at peace with the idea of Juliet dead. (Still loves the non-hexen'd Juliet, but , still, he loved that woman.)  We are lead to believe that Chavez and shadow/Wesen FBI have taken Teresa. If Chavez/ her group is working for the Royals, there has been nothing leading to that and so it would feel like something pulled from their lower hindquarters.

 

How many Royals did Nick kill?  1 -- Kenneth.  Meisner killed the king and the rest of the crew killed a bunch of hundjager bodyguards.  I hardly call that winning against the royals (but we need to think so because the writers got bored with that and decided to find new villains...).  I mean, Viktor is presumably still alive and, I'm guessing is now the new king (or will be when the old king never comes back).  Plus there are 6 other houses to deal with.  But, again, we are supposed to just accept that they are no longer an issue since the writers think they now have a better idea.

 

I will say that I don't think that Nick was at peace with the idea of Juliette dead...I think he was at a point where he knew she couldn't be in his life.  He didn't kill her when he had the chance and then, after she started to kick the crap out of him, told her he wouldn't fight her.  While a few hours earlier he gave the kill order for Juliette, I think by the time they had both faced off, after he thought she had left with the royals and then he saw her bizarre double personality act, he was firmly back in the "this isn't really Juliette" frame of mind.

Edited November 3, 2015 by OtterMommy

[Darklazr]

If Nik had truly "won", IMO, he would feel relief that Juliette is dead and no longer able to hurt anyone.  Yes, he could be furious at Agent Chavez, but not that weird manic thing that he did to show "anger" at her office for taking Trubel, his Mom's head etc...  Trubel was clearly hiding something when she came back to Portland to help Nik, and I wish Rosalie and Monroe had not made that call!

 

Adalind and the baby should have died in childbirth, which would free Nik from his rapist.

 

Meisner killed Eric and the King.  Score two dead Royal's for Meisner!

 

Renard killed his cousin.

 

Nik killed Kenneth.

[OtterMommy]

Meisner killed Eric and the King.  Score two dead Royal's for Meisner!

 

Renard killed his cousin.

 

You're right...I didn't consider Meisner killing Eric because it happened back in season 2.  Who did Renard kill?  I only remember him telling Meisner to kill Eric....  His cousin, Viktor, is--as far as we know--still alive.  The king shuffled him back to Vienna when he didn't deliver Diana soon enough.

[Actionmage]

I remember Renard killing the cousin who sent an armed driver to bring Renard to a meet. If the cousin didn't get Renard to hand over Nick/info on Nick ( due to Renard being so slow), that he was okayed to kill Renard.

 

Foxy Renard, being the clever man he is, killed the cousin and the driver first.

 

I thought Nick had killed one other Royal, at least, but see I misremembered his Royal Kill list. He's taken down a fair number of Royal henchpeople, though.

[OtterMommy]

I remember Renard killing the cousin who sent an armed driver to bring Renard to a meet. If the cousin didn't get Renard to hand over Nick/info on Nick ( due to Renard being so slow), that he was okayed to kill Renard.

 

Oh yeah..now I remember that.  He took the cousin's phone...and I believe that is when his phone fetish started....

[merylinkid]

Nick won?   Umm, okay.   What did he win?   Since we never found out what the fuck the Royals were up to in the first place.   So we had no idea why Nick had to "beat" them.   Maybe he wanted to side with them against the Resistance.   Maybe the Resistance is the real bad guys.   Who knows?   Because it was never bloody explained what the battle was even about.

 

And sure Nick was being a different Grimm.   Except  they hexened his normal girlfriend who then burned down the trailer with literally centuries of information that helped him do his job keeping both humans and Wesen safe.   Thereby making him just like every other Grimm.   A lone Wolf (Marie) off to kill everyone (Kelly).   

[Free]

Nick won?   Umm, okay.   What did he win?   Since we never found out what the fuck the Royals were up to in the first place.   So we had no idea why Nick had to "beat" them.   Maybe he wanted to side with them against the Resistance.   Maybe the Resistance is the real bad guys.   Who knows?   Because it was never bloody explained what the battle was even about.

 

We never did find out about the Royals, they were just replaceable villains that they got rid of only to be replaced by new interchangeable villains.

[OtterMommy]

Nick won?   Umm, okay.   What did he win?   Since we never found out what the fuck the Royals were up to in the first place.   So we had no idea why Nick had to "beat" them.   Maybe he wanted to side with them against the Resistance.   Maybe the Resistance is the real bad guys.   Who knows?   Because it was never bloody explained what the battle was even about. 

 

Yes, what did he win?  This show seems to have forgotten its own history here.  The thing is, Nick was never that concerned with the Royals. Yes, there was that whole zombie thing, but Renard took care of that when he had Meisner kill Eric.  And then Nick got involved in the whole Diana mess for one reason only: His mother told him to.  He wanted to kick Adalind and Diana to the curb when they showed up  Other than trying to protect his mother, Nick really had no skin in that game at all.

 

Then, this whole mess.  Nick went after "the Royals" for 2 reasons ONLY:

1 - Revenge for killing his mother

2 - To get back to or at Juliette (depending on where is mind was at the moment). 

 

Even Diana was really an after thought for him and he really only cared about her because she was with Juliette.

 

So, if Nick was fighting a war, he wasn't aware of it....and I don't know how you can win a war you aren't actually part of.

[Free]

So, if Nick was fighting a war, he wasn't aware of it....and I don't know how you can win a war you aren't actually part of.

 

That's what happens when you isolate your so called villains throughout the series until they got killed off in the finale.  There's nothing at stake, no driving motivation in this so called war.

[Prevailing Wind]

I wish the writers would read this forum.  Some of it would HAVE to stick, wouldn't it? 

[OtterMommy]

I wish the writers would read this forum.  Some of it would HAVE to stick, wouldn't it? 

 

Look, I don't know how things work with writiers, shows, fans, etc...but it would be in their best interests to read some boards.  I mean, sure..people comment on FB and twitter...but those are short little "easy" posts.  People who post on boards such as these are the ones who really are into a show enough to actually take the time to open another tab and discuss it.  We aren't the "casual" fans...just look at the discussions here (or on the boards for any show).  

 

I mean, yeah...they can go by all the "OMG! I LUV GRIMM! (smiley) (smiley) (smiley)!!!!" messages...or they can go see what people who have more than 140 characters and an inclination to actually think about the show are saying.

Edited November 5, 2015 by OtterMommy

[Prevailing Wind]

Back in the dark ages of the internet, I had AOL & would participate in their "proprietary" forums - mainly for the X-Files.  Several writers and at least one director & one exec producer also participated.  They must've liked the exchanges, because some of us found our names in the episodes - as a name on a passenger manifest, in a title of a song/music video.  It was fun.  Once I complained that we were getting yet another character named Cindy (one of the writers' wife's name)...why can't we have a Lucy for once?  Don'cha know, 6 weeks later, there was CCH Pounder playing a character named Lucy.  I was so proud.  And I've been fond of the actress ever since.

 

But it happened because the production staff cared enough to find out what the dedicated fans thought.  Grimm should be so lucky to have a caring production staff.

[OtterMommy]

But it happened because the production staff cared enough to find out what the dedicated fans thought.  Grimm should be so lucky to have a caring production staff.

 

I don't really know anything about Carpenter, Greenwalt, and Kouf--I never watched any of their other shows and I don't know about what they are like as people.

 

That being said....

 

Judging by how they've handled this series, I think they're all raging egomaniacs.  Why:

• Fans have been asking since season 1 what is up with the keys.  In season 3, Rolek (was that his name?) showed up with another key and....that was it.  They said at SDCC for both seasons 3 and 4 that they would answer those questions and then it was barely touched in season 3 and not touched at all in season 4.  At SDCC for Season 5, they said they would address it this season (which I think they will, based on upcoming episode titles.  However, I will be shocked if it makes any sense since they've decided the royals are a non-issue.  They'll probably come up with some crap that the Wesen gangs had the other 5 keys all along) but, at SDCC, they admitted that they didn't know WHAT the keys were about--even thought they had been promising resolution for 2 years already.
• The Adalind/Diana story line was NEVER well received.  I don't think it was so much that Adalind had a kid as it was all the frantic searching for her blah blah blah. But, fans here, on other boards, and on FB (Twitter is too much of a black hole for me for things like this....) were pretty unanimous that they weren't interested in baby plots.  So, what do they do?  Bring in another baby plot--and one that involves Adalind.  I think if they had done a Nick and Juliette baby or a Monroe and Rosalee baby, the reaction would have been, if not exactly positive, sort of eh... But, no, they went there with ADALIND--again.
• So--big dramatic sigh--the Nick and Adalind situation.  I get that there are people out there who are all about Nick and Adalind living happily ever after.  FB is full of them and I'm sure twitter is even worse.  But the fact remains that there was rape involved and they just won't touch that.  Those of us complaining about it over here are not the only ones (I've done my fair amount of complaining about it on FB) and it has to be addressed somehow.  It won't, of course...but it needs to be.

 

I don't get it...this is a show that says that it wants to give the fans what they want...and then they don't.  I mean, they do in some regards.  The "biest fight" was apparently only because people wanted to see Juliette kick the crap out of Adalind (the creators have admitted this).  I don't think that shows should just cater to fans' demands, but things like wanting story lines to be completed instead of dropped and not repeating story lines which didn't work the first time are not unreasonable requests. 

 

To me, it just sounds like they are all too full of themselves to see that there are some major problems in how they've handled the show--checking out forums like this one is not a bad thing for them to do.  Relying on Twitter...eh....not so much.

Edited November 5, 2015 by OtterMommy

[TVSpectator]

Yes, what did he win?  This show seems to have forgotten its own history here.  The thing is, Nick was never that concerned with the Royals. Yes, there was that whole zombie thing, but Renard took care of that when he had Meisner kill Eric.  And then Nick got involved in the whole Diana mess for one reason only: His mother told him to.  He wanted to kick Adalind and Diana to the curb when they showed up  Other than trying to protect his mother, Nick really had no skin in that game at all.

 

Then, this whole mess.  Nick went after "the Royals" for 2 reasons ONLY:

1 - Revenge for killing his mother

2 - To get back to or at Juliette (depending on where is mind was at the moment). 

 

Even Diana was really an after thought for him and he really only cared about her because she was with Juliette.

 

So, if Nick was fighting a war, he wasn't aware of it....and I don't know how you can win a war you aren't actually part of.

 

Maybe they were referring about fighting for/with the Resistance, but we don't even know why the Resistance was fighting the Royals. IMO, the whole thing sounds like they totally dropped the ball on what was going on and just changed horses midstream. 

[Free]

Maybe they were referring about fighting for/with the Resistance, but we don't even know why the Resistance was fighting the Royals. IMO, the whole thing sounds like they totally dropped the ball on what was going on and just changed horses midstream. 

 

They failed to properly build up the Royals so when they were taken out in the finale, they were nothing more than fodder villains, there was no impact of tension leading up to this.  They were easily replaceable with the new villains.

[TVSpectator]

They failed to properly build up the Royals so when they were taken out in the finale, they were nothing more than fodder villains, there was no impact of tension leading up to this.  They were easily replaceable with the new villains.

 

This is all true, but I would say that the writing failed to tell us how everything fitted. Instead we got ideas that didn't really pan out or took way too long to be explained (and I am thinking about how it took them about 3 seasons to explain how the Wesens know Nick's a grimm). 

[Free]

This is all true, but I would say that the writing failed to tell us how everything fitted. Instead we got ideas that didn't really pan out or took way too long to be explained (and I am thinking about how it took them about 3 seasons to explain how the Wesens know Nick's a grimm). 

 

Exactly and they seem to be doing the same with the keys this season according to interviews.

[TVSpectator]

Exactly and they seem to be doing the same with the keys this season according to interviews.

 

Oh, they probably have forgotten about the Keys and also the Coins (remember them?). Personally I would like just a little explanation and then they can find a way to tie everything together.