Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[stillshimpy]

I also am in the "Jon is Rhaeger and Lyanna's son" camp, but he is *not* a dragon.  I rewatched, several times, the scene in S1 where Jon throws the kerosene lamp at the zomboni in Lord Mormont's quarters, and Jon definitely gets burned by the fire.  He is *not* impervious to fire.  That doesn't mean he's not a Targeryen, just means he hasn't got Dany's gift.  But maybe Aegon's sisters were also not fireproof (the ones Arya idolizes from the stories), but they could still ride dragons alongside Aegon, who, it sounds like, *was* "a dragon."

 

I'm not of the opinion that Jon is Lyanna's son, but absolutely, he was burned by that lantern.  Hey, in reading the old thread, here's the first theory we ever discussed about Jon:  That he's Robert and Lyanna's son.  I was ...well, I was copying some stuff for my own personal use...and I doubt I'd get in trouble for it, seeing as I wrote what I'm talking about, but it wasn't just my theory.  

I still sort of wonder if that might not be the case because Jon Snow has very dark brown hair.  Same problem with, "Yes, but who would know?"  

I'm assuming Benjen would, not that that is going to help anyone seeing as he's the founder of the Milk Carton club as it is.  As for why Ned Stark would keep that from Robert Baratheon?  I have absolutely no clue whatsoever.   

So I still think Ned Stark had a thing with a girl named Willa (that's what Ned said her name was) and that Jon Snow is the result.  

But I hope that, in part, because it would mean that Dead Ned had some fun in his overly honor-bound life and that his own departure from honor wasn't lying about being a traitor.  I know he and Catelyn grew to love one another and everything, but hell, she actively loved his brother...just seems very short-end-of-the-stick for Poor Dead Ned.   

Edited April 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Isazouzi]

Yes, Jon Snow is dark of hair, as they say. Or is it black of hair?  In a story where recessive genes apparently don't exist, it could mean Baratheon. And we don't know if it takes a true dragon to ride dragons. If not, that surely sucked for the unlucky Targaryens. What was the point of being born in that crazy family if you didn't at least get the perk of riding a dragon?

Edited April 13, 2014 by Isazouzi

[capt planet]

As for why Ned Stark would keep that from Robert Baratheon?  I have absolutely no clue whatsoever.   

I think that's why the Rhaegar/Lyanna theory makes more sense; why would Ned keep from Robert a son with the woman he claimed to love most?  You'd think he'd jump on the opportunity to allow this child to be raised as a legitimate prince.  But we know that all of the Targaryan kids (well, other than Dany and her brother) were stamped out during the rebellion, because for their lineage to continue would mean potential threats to the Baratheon throne.  So, that's one motive to keep an Rhaegar/Lyanna son from Robert.  Another is that Bob was convinced the love of his life was kidnapped and murdered by Rhaegar, so any child of that union would have been, by his logic, an abomination.  I don't know if Ned could have known the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, but I do think he'd protect her child.

Side note: you guys should see the multitude of ways I've misspelled/butchered the names of these characters.  At the end, I picked a spelling of Rhaegar and went with it, but hell if I know the order of these damned ae's and h's and ar's.

[stillshimpy]

I'm with you on the "How the hell do you spell that? I think I'll make it up...." issue, capt planet, but then I watched Stargate where, "when in doubt, use a bizarrely placed apostrophe and call it a day" worked well enough to be understood (un'dersto'od) 

 

 

I think that's why the Rhaegar/Lyanna theory makes more sense; why would Ned keep from Robert a son with the woman he claimed to love most?

The only one I can think of, at all, is that Ned might have thought that meant they wouldn't be able to raise Lyanna's son, or that it would scuttle the new found peace, because the Lannisters might not have agreed to the marriage, had they known that Lyanna and Robert had a son. 

Plus, here's my fallback position when it comes to any of this stuff: If it happened, then it was probably freaking Jon Arryn's idea.  That guy did not have the soundest judgment as far as I can tell.  But that doesn't hold any water for me, because it took Jon Arryn forever to catch on that all Baratheons have dark hair (again, apparently no recessive genes in this world...right then) and that none of Robert's children by Cersei did.  

However, that all gets a little too historical romance novel for me (particularly the Rhaegar and Lyanna speculation), so I just stick with what we've been told and if they change that, well, I guess I'll know differently when and if they do.  

Jon Snow turned out to be such a dull character that I have a hard time caring, but again, there is one remaining Stark that we saw Ned confiding in and that was Benjen.  Maybe that's the point of Benjen being missing within the story.  He's the only person who could tell Jon fully about his mother, whoever she might have been.  Most of the point to Jon's character seems to be that he is, in a land obsessed with houses and names, a character without either.  

I really lean hard towards "That guy is Ned's son" still though, because he apparently has great interest in keeping his Oath to the Wall.  

The only thing that might break that is, god save us all, if Ygritte is knocked up.

Edited April 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[MickleThePickle]

I've been considering the adventures of Arya and the Hound. I'm simply having too much fun with their storyline and am convinced that something terrible is bound to happen. The men they killed in the inn were with the Mountain, ravaging the lands and engaging in so much torture that it was getting just plain boring for the King's men. As our two heroes rode into the sunset last episode, you could see the landscape in burning shambles. Are they on course for a showdown between the Clegane brothers? Feels like it. Perhaps this is where they will part ways, with the Hound captured/dying to allow Arya to escape and make her way to Braavos. The show has certainly made me care enough about the Hound by now to allow for another painful character exit.

As for the dragons, I'm curious if there has been mention of how they died? Are they nigh-invulnerable creatures that die from old age? Or, did people figure out how to kill them and decorate their throne rooms with skull-trophies? I just don't have a great sense of how powerful these creatures are and if the three of them alone present an awesome danger to the large armies of Westeros. Perhaps they will participate in the next (several?) attacks on slaver cities and we can find out.

[WhiteStumbler]

Dragonglass: Could there be more at Dragon Stone where we last saw Stannis?

[hobbers]

So is the general expectation that we will finally see the wedding tonight? It's been under preparation since s02e10! Since then we've had Robb marrying Talisa, Sansa being engaged to Loras then engaged to Tyrion, then marrying Tyrion, Edmure marrying Frey girl. This one has been a long time coming. The only thing is, I always expected that something big would happen in this wedding, but given last year's massacre and seeing as the wedding will either be this or the next episode I'm starting to think it might be a (Westeros relatively) dull affair. They could focus on the characters we missed last week. 

Can we please see Edmure? I am having visions of him getting the full-Theon treatment by a Frey sadist! 

[abelard]

Are they on course for a showdown between the Clegane brothers? Feels like it. Perhaps this is where they will part ways, with the Hound captured/dying to allow Arya to escape and make her way to Braavos. The show has certainly made me care enough about the Hound by now to allow for another painful character exit.

 

Omg this would be just cruel enough to the viewer to actually happen.  I hated The Hound for so many seasons, and it's incredible how fast he was able to board the Redemption Train and fast that train moved (Redemption Express!), and now that he's squarely in Redemption Corner, *of course* he's probably going to die nobly, saving Arya's life.  Thanks for this spec, it allows me to pull back on my (very newfound) love of the Hound and expect his tragic demise any day now. 

[Snowblack]

It's funny I forgot Oberyn's name, because I first heard it as something that sounded like Oberlin -- as in the college in Ohio, known for Vegan Collectives and excellent music programs -- and Oberyn's actions within the brothel really didn't fit with that image. "Oberlin? Aw hippies, rope sandals, plant-based proteins and....okay, so he just impaled that dude's hand....that was jarring..."

So who knows what hideous stuff the primary entertainment might be.  But it wasn't hideous enough to hold Joffrey's attention and this is the guy who nearly wet his pans with joy while telling Margaery about the twisted past of several kings.  

Funny, the name makes me thing of Oberon, the fairy king.  Lol.  I guess he's getting his drunken orgies on out there in the magical forest.

Maybe Ser Dontos is the entertainment?  It may explain his inexplicable return, and Joff's lack of interest.

OMG, IT'S TIME!!!!

Edited April 14, 2014 by Snowblack

[stillshimpy]

Guys, maybe we should take episode talk to the episode thread? Here's a link to the Unsullied episode thread for 4.2

It's just going to get really confusing if we don't try to figure out where we're talking about the latest episode. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

When I heard the name, Oberon, I thought of the delicious delicious beer :)

[arry the orphan]

Your Tyrell conspiracy theory sounds reasonable. However, Margaery wanted to be "the Queen". Instead she is now a widow, again. She married two kings and both kings died before the marriage could be consummated. People are going to say that she is cursed, and thats certainly not in the interest of House Tyrell. Perhaps her goal is to rule as Queen, like Danerys. Without a King. As Oberyn pointed out, Cersei is now the former Queen Regent, so I guess Margaery is Queen Regent now until Tommen marries.

 

I still don't rule out a "magic" poisoning by Lady Melisandre. She burned the eels in order to kill Joffrey. She drank the same ? poison at the beginning of Season 2, when Stannis maester tried to kill her and in this episode she finally could burn some noblemen related to Stannis' wife on a stake. I mean, after Shadow baby, everything is possible.

Edited April 14, 2014 by arry the orphan

[DirewolfPup]

We got to see Tyrion and Jamie bond again. It's been since, what S01 E01 since we saw them in the same room? I always got the sense from Tyrion that the brothers were closer than any other Lannister bond minus the twins. The scene sort of confirms that notion. Jamie is worried about people finding out about his inability to fight and confides in Tyrion. So Tyrion offers Bronn as a dancing master. (aside: Did anyone else have a "omgerd! Syrio?!?" moment when Tyrion said he needed a discrete teacher. le sigh.) This should only make their bond stronger. Jamie may be the key to getting Tyrion out of trouble. One can only hope.

Cercei was on fire yesterday. Something is really not sitting right with me about how she's been treating Maester Pycelle since the new dude came in. I get that the new guy (seriously need to learn his name) is super awesome and everything, but why just threaten and piss off the Maester that STILL SITS ON THE SMALL COUNCIL?? This woman has no logic whatsoever. Maybe it's the menopausal hormones...

As for poisoning Joffrey, I honestly thought it was a choking accident until Tyrion picked up the Goblet. In no way could that wine be poisoned. Everyone was drinking from it. If it was poison and not an accident, the glass could be coated with something or the pie was poisoned (all of it? That's a huge pie! Hopefully, it's cheap poison). I doubt the pie was poisoned, too, because there's too much risk of killing someone else first, which means Joffrey won't eat it. I'm going to just accuse Sir Dantos cause everyone else at the table seemed genuinely shocked except for him. (or maybe Varys. It's the best for the realm after all.... mwahahaha)

[hobbers]

I'm not so sure Jaime is going to be in a great position to help his brother out. Remember in s04e01 that other knight was giving out saying he was always by the king's side? Now Jaime comes back and BAM! He's gonna take some of the rap for  this as well. I am just wondering now how Tywin is gonna go, as I'm sure  this is his last season as well. Tyrells and Lannisters headed for full on fight.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, it was interesting to see Jaime and Tyrion relating to one another as siblings. We rarely get to see them anywhere near one another. I've never known quite how Jaime is supposed to feel about Tyrion, but it would appear that they are quite fond of another.

I need to rewatch, because I'm still sort of in shock over everything that just went down.

I don't really think the Tyrells were behind this though. Until that marriage was officially consummated, there'd be no point in everything they just went through and all the money they just spent. Margaery needed to be knocked up with the potential heir (and better yet, having given birth to a son) before it would have been worthwhile to off Joffrey.

The weird thing here is that there are a ton of suspects, specifically because everyone hates Joffrey, or has reason to hate him. But if it was anyone, I think Varys "I serve the realm" is the most likely guy to have enacted anything. But with Margaery exerting influence over Joffrey, it seems far less likely that Varys would have chosen now to act "for the good of the realm".

As happy as I am that Joffrey bit it, I'm less thrilled with the whole, "Oh shit, now a character I like will take the blame, right?" and I will have an entire cow if this turns into yet another "They'll never specifically tell us who did this" type of stuff.

Now Jaime comes back and BAM! He's gonna take some of the rap for this as well.

Right? Think of the new entry to Jaime's Kingsguard page. "Stood helplessly by as King Joffrey Baratheon died of the bile in his own soul...or something to that end...having been on duty while yet.another.king.died."

Forget making him leave because he's got one hand, Jaime needs to be fired from the Kingsguard for gross incompetence.

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

Unless Margery plans to say that she and Joffrey did consummate it between the wedding and the reception, I can't see the Tyrells wanting to kill him yet. If she is planning to say that, then she has probably already started trying to get knocked up. Maybe that is where Lancel is hiding.

[MrMicrophone]

Spec on Doom of Valyria:

I think the Valyrians lost control of their dragons. Possibly contemporaneous to a volcanic eruption. Maybe the dragons made the volcanic eruption?

I think magic and natural disasters are kinda linked here -- maybe it's the same as the White Walkers and Winter? And maybe the wall was actually manmade, with magic to bolster it?

[North Star]

As Oberyn pointed out, Cersei is now the former Queen Regent, so I guess Margaery is Queen Regent now until Tommen marries.

Margaery would only be in a position to be regent for one of her own children, I believe.  With Joffrey dead she's pretty much back to square one.  Cersei, as Tommen's mother, would seem the more likely regent, though Tywin might prefer to just take that office himself this time and dispense with pretenses.

On the whodunnit front, there are some superficial reasons to make me wonder about Oberyn, but on the whole I think probably not.  The main thing would be that the reappearance of Sansa's drunken knight/fool coincides pretty much exactly with Oberyn's arrival, and they made a point of showing that Oberyn actually got into the city without anybody noticing in the premiere. The lead Dornish guy Tyrion spoke to said he had arrived earlier that morning, but there's no actual corroboration of that, so he could have been there for days or weeks, for all we know.

Weighing against it are Oberyn's seeming remoteness from the murder scene (though proxies are always a possibility there, among the servants), and his being so openly antagonistic, which would only draw suspicion to himself (unless it's a double-bluff).

If it was him, though, while his motive for wanting Joffrey dead would be blatantly obvious, I'm not sure what he'd want Sansa for.  Apparently his sister's husband ran off with Lyanna Stark and he's not pleased about that, but it seems like a stretch that he'd be looking to settle scores with her niece who wasn't even born then.  Could be the same political opportunism why everybody wants Sansa, I suppose.  Or he could want to help her, but when has Sansa ever been that lucky?

Edited April 14, 2014 by North Star

[stillshimpy]

Okay, well, back from the episode thread for a while, as we try and figure out the logistics! 

I rewatched pretty carefully, on an HD TV, HD feed that's pretty darned large and what I saw was Olenna look at Sansa's necklace, as opposed to taking anything from it.  It's possible she recongized it.  It certainly doesn't look like it's missing a stone afterward.  

Dontos was clearly involved in something, and may have actually acted alone, but his coming to fetch Sansa seems too big of a coincidence otherwise.  When Joffrey goes down for the count, Margaery seems truly freaked out.  

There's really weird with Cersei though.  A lot of things that just don't really fit unless she just took out Joffrey.  One is countermanding Margaery's order about the food.  That bespeaks of a person who is confident that it won't matter that she's thwarted Margaery's wishes.  Now, Cersei is just petty enough to squabble around about power plays, just for the hell of it, but that doesn't make a ton of sense for her to do. 

Then there's some very odd about her last expression when she looks back at Dead Joffrey (wooo!PARTY! get to right that at last...DeadJoffreyDeadJoffreyDeadJoffrey) , but it may just be Lena Headey's acting choices vs. indicative of anything.  There's just a moment where she doesn't look pained, she just looks self-satisfied.  It's right after she accuses Tyrion...which that might have been the silliest moment the show ever had...all we needed was a flash of lightning and Vincent Price intoning that he knows who the murderer is along with organ music swelling the rafters.  

But I really think that Cersei might actually be capable of murdering her own child.  I'm still fairly convinced that she killed her son with Robert (a fever took him? Sure, same thing took Jon Arryn).

And it has just occurred to me why Dontos might have been calling Sansa away at that moment.  

Shae might have sent him to fetch Sansa.  Shae loves Sansa and I doubt she'd willingly leave her.  Never trust and offscreen scifi death and never trust secondhand news.  Would Shae set up Tyrion?  I don't think she'd intentionally do that, but she sure was pissed at him and she may have been aware of Dontos.  

Shae did say she'd kill for Sansa, after all.  

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, still not seeing that, thanks. 

So, back to speculating I go, Bran's vision interface with the tree is still of interest to me.  That was definitely a Zomponi in the vision, but Pallas , I don't think the barefoot man in rags is an Ice Zombie.  He appeared to be alive. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[North Star]

If Cersei noted Brienne's shifting loyalty, surely she would notice that whoever this woman marries ends up dead, and their death puts her in a better position somehow. Renly dying allowed them to shift to the Lannister side, and now Cersei's son dies immediately after they are married? Conveniently leaving the throne all to the Tyrells, at least for a time.

Without challenging the general theory (the photo evidence is good), Renly supposedly was the clear favourite to win at the time of his death (if Littlefinger looking to jump ship is any indication), so I don't think his death put the Tyrells in a better position.  They just had to scramble to return to the same position they were in before.

I don't believe Joffrey's death leaves the throne to the Tyrells.  Robert's death didn't leave the throne to Cersei.  The new king would be Joffrey's brother (who turned up for the first time in forever, albeit I don't think he had any lines), and his regent would presumably come from his own family, not his sister-in-law's.  I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin takes that job himself this time, unless there's some rule against the Hand also being Regent.

Edited April 14, 2014 by North Star

[stillshimpy]

I don't believe Joffrey's death leaves the throne to the Tyrells.

It wouldn't, by all known rules for succession.  Only an heir produced of the marriage would cede the Throne to the Tyrells.  Remember Margaery and her "Put a baby in my belly" stuff to Renly?  That's what matters in a royal marriage and that's what determine the succession.  

 

 

The new king would be Joffrey's brother (who turned up for the first time in forever, albeit I don't think he had any lines), and his regent would presumably come from his own family, not his sister-in-law's.  I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin takes that job himself this time, unless there's some rule against the Hand also being Regent.

Yes, then Tommen would be the next in line since Joffrey died without an heir,  not any of the Tyrells.  Just as Stannis would have legitimately been next in line when Robert died leaving no legitimate heirs, they just passed Cersei and Jaime's children off as Baratheons.  So we do know that's how that works in this Kingdom 

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

Will Stannis penis leach Tommen now?

[Glory]

Uh, what? It's pretty obvious something is missing from the necklace, even if it isn't that clear that Olenna took it. Not sure what you mean by "not seeing it," unless you don't mean literally.

I don't think it's very obvious at all. It could be the gem is just tucked underneath the neckline of her dress. That would make more sense than Olenna pulling it off of her in broad daylight. 

[stillshimpy]

Uh, what? It's pretty obvious something is missing from the necklace

No, I think the rest of the necklace is actually under the v of Sansa's dress and that's not close to the area that Olenna is touching.  So I don't see any smoking necklaces, but if you do, rock on and have fun with it.  I just disagree and don't see it.  

 

 

Will Stannis penis leach Tommen now?

Heh, right? But his pet supply of Baratheon blood has boogied to points unknown, so Melisandre won't be able to leech any parts of Gendry, thank goodness. 

Also for really unappealing dinner scenes?  Dining at Dragonstone lacks a lot of appeal. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Now, I count 7 rather large gems. If in the scene with Olenna it looks to you like that gem all the way on her left is underneath her dress,

Yes, that's what it looks like to me.  

Also, it doesn't make any sense for the Tyrells to kill off Joffrey without trying to make sure that Margaery has had a son who can then be in the line of succession.  

However, I understand that you see this differently and that's fine.  Time will tell, I"m sure. 

 

 

but I'd advise getting your eyes checked

[deadpan]Thanks for your concern. [/deadpan]

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[hobbers]

....Ah crud. I believe I have  been spoiled upthread somewhat. (Don't worry the comment has been deleted) Ah well, I watched 2 seasons with the knowledge that Robb died so I'm used to watching the show with spoilers in my head. Wish I had lasted longer than 2 episodes though. Fair play to all those who have come over from the TWoP thread and have been going since season 1 or 2, keep up the good speculation. I'll be back if these events happen early on but I think that to be unlikely. Best of luck to you all!

[Pallas]

Watching again: Olenna fusses with Sansa's hair and then her necklace, on the (Sansa's) left, and after touching the necklace does seem to press her fingers together: more a gesture of flicking off than palming, as I see it, but the view is not clear.  After that I don't see anything to confirm if the last jewel is missing or hidden. Yes, in the screenshot above it does seem that the triangle to which the far-left jewel is attached is visible on the outside of her collar, and there doesn't seem to be jewel-sized bulge beneath the collar.  So.

I can see why the Lady Olenna might decide to poison Joffrey.  But I don't understand what kind of plot would require Lady Olenna to use Lady Sansa as a poison-mule. 

ETA: Hobbers, I am so sorry!  I have enjoyed your posts tremendously!  

Edited April 14, 2014 by Pallas

[Chris Ashe]

Just thinking out of left field here but who would suspect someone who wasn't at the wedding? Littlefinger. His beloved Cat is dead, and we have heard his views on revenge. Obviously I have no proof but it just struck me that he is the one major player in KL who is not there...

[stillshimpy]

I can see why the Lady Olenna might decide to poison Joffrey.  But I don't understand what kind of plot would require Lady Olenna to use Lady Sansa as a poison-mule.

I can actually really believe they'd have a great interest in offing Joffrey, after they were sure they had a solid chance at an heir.  Not before they could even claim the marriage was consummated.  

Somewhat randomly, could the Unsullied check gingerella's board, please? Updates are available. 

[stillshimpy]

hobbers, so that you know, removal of a post is not a confirmation of anything and since it was against your will, you can also just let us know what subject you are taking yourself out of the running for speculating on (hit me via PM with the subject only, not the material as to why, please) and continue with other subjects.  

ETA: Sorry, didn't realize that would be a double-post! 

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

Mod note: 

We will be deleting any posts that make statements as fact, whether or not they contain actual spoilers. As book readers, we know what is real and what isn't, but we will not tolerate people spreading real or false spoilers here. 

 

[stillshimpy]

Actually... Jaime seemed to be the only one (other than Cersei) that actually reacted and tried to do something. Where was everyone else?

Trying to keep from bursting into a hymn of thanks and gratitude? 

[gingerella]

After basking in the afterglow of Off of Joff, I am now left wondering, "so now what?!" Will they use all the guests gathered in one place for the wedding, and immediately crown Tommen King? Is he going to end up being as batshit crazy as Joff was? Are we going to find that all Cersei's incest brood are nutso freaks? I dont think I could deal with another Joffs, I mean, we still have Bolton's bastard, oy.

[izabella]

I'm scared Tommen might turn into another Joffrey, as well.  He was laughing a little too much during the "primary entertainment" for my taste.  Or maybe it's the way they dressed and styled him to look just like Joffrey.

[Isazouzi]

Yes, Tommen found the dwarves hilarious, but he's a kid, right? How old is he supposed to be?

Killing Joffrey doesn't put anyone else in his place, but it does clear the field, right? I mean, there's no king and there's no heir. Maybe that's all the culprit wanted: an empty throne, war and chaos. Possibly a chance to use the situation to their advantage (Littlefinger's way) or simply a way to get rid of a terrible king and make room for a better one, for the good of the realm (Varys' way). Not that I think that Varys or Littlefinger are the culprit. I'm just looking for a motive.

And I still think it's Lady Olenna, to protect her grand-daughter and the realm in general from Joffrey.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Isazouzi

[Pallas]

Tommen sobered up after taking in a glance from Uncle-Uncle Tyrion next to him.  And he really did seem to take it in -- to get it, to feel empathy.  Dwarves as fake kings on fake horses and the titillating lese majeste of that got put aside. From then on Tommen didn't seem to be stifling his laughter, either, or darting venomous glances at Tyrion, the source of his embarrassment, as Joffrey no doubt would have.  He looked pained in his position between his merry mother and his thunderous uncle.

I'm sure Tyrion has every reason not to sentimentalize children, but he was unusually dead earnest when he called both Tommen and Myrcella "such sweet children."  Of course, that doesn't bode well for them.  Their creator is also not  treacly.

[stillshimpy]

Pretty sure Tommen's not a pyscho, he's the boy Joffrey made fun of for crying when Myrcella was being taken off to Dorne.  He also appeared to understand maybe they shouldn't all spike a football of glee in front of Sansa about her brother's imagined death.  I'm pretty sure Tommen's all right. 

Also, Tommen's the heir now. He's (at least believed to be) Robert's next eldest son. 

I really don't think Olenna killed Joffrey in some altruistic "spare the people" move, not because she's completely incapable of that, I think they'd have likely figured out a way for Joffrey to "catch a fever" "sadly fall on his own spear while hunting" or any number of "concealed murder" plots but only after they'd secured the line of succession.  

If by some weird chance Olenna and house Martel thought, "No, that is far too dangerous.  What if he hurts Margaery before she can bear a child we can at least claim is his?"  here's the gig: wouldn't she have figured out a way to off him without spending all that money for the wedding?  "He's got to die, and wouldn't it be swell if we were made substantially poorer while we're at it" seems a really unlikely move by anyone with sense or reasons as even occasional companions. 

Edited April 15, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Isazouzi]

I've posted that picture in the episode thread, but I'll post it here too. The gem is clearly missing:

[stillshimpy]

Sorry, I'm still not buying any of this.  I don't know if that was the necklace's original design, or if we're starting to deal with enhanced resolution pictures or what.

So since there really would be no way to catch that just watching the show? Until it's spelled out specifically within the show -- at which point I will buy everyone a mug of grog who has backed the seemingly convoluted "I've become a Bond Villain and later will drop a soccer ball into the shark tank, the sharks will then be driven mad with gooooooaaaaalllls and attack Stannis's fleet"  theory -- I'm sticking with my original objection:  It makes no sense as a plan within a power game.   

It makes the Tyrells substantially less wealthy.  Gains them no power at all and the only thing that really accomplishes?  Freeing Magarery from having to marry a Psycho.  Revealing that she's boffed a bunch of guys at High Garden (as Loras told Renly) seems like it could have accomplished the same "I don't wish for my grandchildren to marry into this family" problem. 

It's sort of like realizing you need to clean your bathroom, but rather than pick up a sponge, you soak the house in gasoline and burn it to the ground.  It demonstrates exceptionally poor problem solving abilities. 

Edited April 15, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Glory]

To build on StillShimpy's comments, everything we've been led to believe about Olenna is that she is crafty and intelligent. She can spar with Tywin - the master manipulator.

The gem theory is convoluted and not nearly as elegant as I'd expect from her. I do thing that the necklace will be significant - especially with the Fool attempting to sorry spirit Sansa away. But I doubt it contains poison or that Olenna pulled a gem away in broad daylight. I'd definitely know if someone tugged hard enough on my necklace to dislodge a piece of it.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Glory

[Isazouzi]

To each his own, I'm not trying to impose my ideas on anyone, since they weren't even mine to begin with. I just rewatched the episode to check the necklace and I thought it would interest some of you to see this screen capture, which I didn't enhance or modify or whatnot. I watch the show in HD and I didn't need to pause the image to see that the gem was missing.

Now I agree that if you're not looking at the necklace in particular while watching the show, like I did in my first viewing (and why would you watch the necklace?) you might not notice the missing gem. But there's no need to enhance anything to see it. It is totally possible to catch it while watching the show. It is shown many other times afterwards too. So maybe the necklace theory is right, maybe it's not, maybe it's just how the necklace is designed, I really don't know, but it doesn't change the fact that it's how it was portrayed on the show for anyone to see.

[stillshimpy]

But there's no need to enhance anything to see it. It is totally possible to catch it while watching the show. It is shown many other times afterwards too.

60 inch plasma HD over here and I didn't find that to be the case.  I was pausing specifically and walking directly up to the very large screen just to make sure.  So I'm sticking with my objections and I think we're just going to need to disagree that it would clearly be obvious and that you just need to be looking for it. 

I will go check again now on a different screen, just to be absolutely sure, but here's what I did notice: There's a moment when Sansa leans forward and the jewels dangle and this is after Olenna ...does whatever she does, I think she just recognized the necklace and that that will be important later ....and it doesn't hang off balance at all.  

ETA:  Okay, well son of a plum:  34 minute mark in the recording and yup, you can see the exterior of the necklace outside of Sansa's gown.  Olenna does touch the necklace, seemingly on its other side though.  

I'm sticking with the "That would be a stupid way to kill someone" objection...but I will also admit that the assassination attempts in this story have been laughable all along, so maybe. 

But there's also the problem with...how the hell would they ever go about revealing that?  Angela Landsbury would nip in frreeze frame the action as she went all Miss Marple and Murder She Wrote on explaining how that went down? I have a sort of giant and high definition TV set, a home theatre set up (and a monitored alarm system, I hasten to add, just on the very off-off-off chance that someone looking to pinch an ungainly, heavy, mounted TV is reading this) as well as (clearly) far too much time on my hands this week and I had to look four times ...and there isn't ever a shot of the necklace that show it to ever have been any difference.  Later it will hang forward and doesn't look off balance.  

Edited April 15, 2014 by stillshimpy

[arry the orphan]

I already posted in the episode thread, that I believe this is a play by Olenna to get the position of Master of Coin. Remember when she told Tywin that the Iron Bank will have its due and that he is going to need her help to pay them back? She probably realized that the whole Margary becomes Queen deal is not good for them as long as the Lannisters have the King, Hand of the King, Master of Coin and Commander of Kingsguard. Additionally Tywin is trying to secure the North (via Tyrion marrying Sansa) and Highgarden (via Cersei marrying Loras) for his House. This would mean total domination by the Lannisters and having Margary married to the sadistic king would be a poor compensation for the Tyrells. Olenna even told Sansa that she thinks her son is a Oaf for wanting this alliance. She opposed it from the beginning. Olenna said, that he is riding House Tyrell down a cliff on the back of a lion. So, instead of making Margary Queen, she plans to break the Lannister grip on Kings Landing. The position of Master of Coin would only be the first step. Stopping the marriage of Cersei and Loras would be a logical next step. And perhaps Margary was so friendly to Brienne, because she is going to ask her to help Sansa flee the city (roadtrip of Sansa, the fool and Brienne to Highgarden??).

 

So making Sansa an accessory to murder of Joffrey was just in order to force her to flee the city and to frame Tyrion (Everyone in Kings Landing must know that Tyrion threatend Joffrey before).

Edited April 15, 2014 by arry the orphan

[capt planet]

On my rewatch, I noticed that a gem was clearly missing.  However, it wasn't clear whether if it had been missing the entire feast, or as a result of Olenna pinching it, or what.  To me, it's safest to assume the gem, while missing, was likely not stolen and likely had nothing to do with the plot to murder Joffrey.

[stillshimpy]

Well 'arry, Tywin Lannister is not known for acknowledging that women anywhere are capable of being powerful, so I don't know that Olenna would believe that there is a chance in all seven hells that he's suddenly appoint a Mistress of the Coin.  

He'd be more likey to say the Martells did it, jail the lot of them and seize their assets.  

Also, the entire "Maybe she tossed the necklace over the terrace as payment for the hit" thing is...so this is how that would have to work: Olenna would somehow be able to arrange with that person to actually poison the king, while in King's Landing, which would imply the ability to communicate with that person multiple times...but the only way an intelligent, rich woman...who again, somehow managed to communicate the need for a hit against the King without detection in King's Landing...could figure out how to deliver payment was to fling a necklace into the tree in front of a bunch of people who saw her fling said necklace?.  Yeah, I think that was just meant to show that none of the necklaces were good enough for Margaery. 

Westeros really needs an Agatha Christie type if this is their idea of a plot to murder anyone. 

Also, I've now officially watched that murder scene so many times that it has ceased to be fun to watch Joffrey die (a miracle, I submit to you) and actually, Sansa and Tyrion are acting just as freaking squirrely as anyone and Tryion tells Pod "we'll find a way to repay the king later".  

There is only one person who appears to be absolutely aware of what is going to go down and that was Dontos, the Fool, who clearly had a plan for getting Sansa the hell out of there. 

One other thing, it looks for all the world like it's the pie that gets Joffrey, not the wine.  I think this is all going to be solved when all the poor dogs die from eating the damned leftovers.  Also, if that proves to be the case? My main suspect will once again be Cersei, who knew she was about to be banished to life at High Garden, with Loras as a terribly disinterested husband (to put it mildly) , after she literally spent almost two decades being married to a bloated drunk to get herself into the position where she had influence over the throne.  

Edited April 15, 2014 by stillshimpy

[arry the orphan]

 

Tywin Lannister is not known for acknowledging that women anywhere are capable of being powerful, so I don't know that Olenna would believe that there is a chance in all seven hells that he's suddenly appoint a Mistress of the Coin.

Lord Oaf (the actor looked very familiar) can become Master of Coin, he is officially the second richest man in Westeros. Olenna would still be in charge of the books. Tywin has to give them something, or else they will just leave and take their army and their food with them.

Edited April 15, 2014 by arry the orphan

[stillshimpy]

Good gods, is that man really named "Oaf" because that's just cruel.  

Yeah, but he's an idiot, isn't he?  Or Olenna treats him as one, and she'd have to rely on him to accurately report on all the Council meetings to her, because it's not as if Tywin ....who sits on the council...is going to be all, "Sure, bring your mom."

Edited April 15, 2014 by stillshimpy

[arry the orphan]

 

Good gods, is that man really named "Oaf" because that's just cruel.

Lol. No, I just call him that, because I don't know his name. But I remember thats what Olenna called him when talking to Sansa. According to the Character Appendix his name is Mace Tyrell.

Edited April 15, 2014 by arry the orphan

[90PercentGravity]

I have to say, riding off a cliff while looking at a falcon is probably the best Darwin Award death ever. It's wonderful how much it tells us about a character we have never met (and never will).

Edited April 15, 2014 by 90PercentGravity