Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[Glory]

***hop hop hop*** pssssst, yeah, you buddy, c'mere**** hop hop hop*** do a blade a favor, would ya?***hop hop hop*** where ya going? I can pay! check out my hilt! C'mon, ya just need to stab that kid, he's sleeping, it'll go fine, then you get to keep meeeeeeeee! ***hop hop hop*** 

Game of Thrones: The secret chronicles of Knifey.  The world's most identifiable cutlery.  

Anyone ever read Brandon Sanderson novels? This reminds me of Nightblood the sentient sword. LOL

Back to the judges for Tyrion's trial for a moment. We don't really know how the voting will work. Does it need be unanimous? Or best 2 out of 3?

We can kinda sorta assume that Oberon is on Tyrion's side because he seems like a man who appreciates justice (even if it's his own version of justice).

So how do we see Tywin and Mace Terrell voting? I didn't get the impression that Tywin actually thinks Tyrion did it. In fact, the only person who I think truly believes Tyrion did it is Cersei but she's half-way in her cups all the time so who really cares what she thinks?

Is Mace Terrell truly in Tywin's pocket? He might do whatever Olenna tells him to do regardless of Tywin's instructions.

No, what is curious to me is who this "they" is that tried to get Podrick to testify against Tyrion. Obviously, someone is ok with Tyrion taking the fall for this. But who? I feel as if if Littlefinger is responsible for the actual poisoning then he would not truly care who was accused. He has an alibi such that he was on his way to the Eyrie! How could he have done it? 

So who is the ubiquitous they? 

Might Tywin be attempting to find the actual killers and bring them to justice? Especially with the trial being two weeks away? 

[Pallas]

But "they" didn't seem to be seeking anything from Podrick but his compliance in setting up his lord.  No answer other than, "Yes, okay, I guess there was that time when Lord Tyrion asked me to recommend a wine to go with pie..."  So "they" want Tyrion to take the fall, and I'm pretty confident that "they" are what Littlefinger may call his Little Weasels.

I want to see if Sansa figures out that Littlefinger revealed he knew that Joffrey had been killed.  Or if Littlefinger will confirm it, to try to gain her trust.  I guess the only way we'd know that Sansa put it together would be if she mentioned it to Littlefinger: who else would she confide in?  Unless Littlefinger thoughtfully intercepted Shae and brought her along...

Shae, who told Sansa not to trust him.  I'm really starting to believe that Shae was working for Littlefinger when she first met Tyrion.  

[stillshimpy]

I want to see if Sansa figures out that Littlefinger revealed he knew that Joffrey had been killed.  Or if Littlefinger will confirm it, to try to gain her trust.  I guess the only way we'd know that Sansa put it together would be if she mentioned it to Littlefinger: who else would she confide in?  Unless Littlefinger thoughtfully intercepted Shae and brought her along..

My husband and I did a partial rewatch, Pallas -- so no Wall, no Jaime and Cersei's twisted strangeness and even worse in the mortuary, no Wildlings and "look, a good parent, he seems ni....well at least he died swiftly so there's tha...okay now they're going to eat him.  Man, this show is hard on good parents."   anyway, what he noticed (because I brought up the same thing, Littlefinger knew the King was dead) was that it was dark by the time Sansa got to the boat and daylight at the wedding, so there was time for Littlefinger to have gotten ye olde Raven.  I don't personally believe that, but it might the explanation that Littlefinger could plausibly hand out.  

Edited April 22, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Ah, kudos to Mr. Shimpy for that!  (And I love the parameters of your re-watch.)  He's right, of course; I'm interested in where Sansa and Dontos hung out until nightfall, but Littlefinger no doubt had some perfect bolt-hole for them.  So yes, that could be his story.  How I dread hearing his unctuous delivery of whatever tale he has prepared to explain why he so thoroughly prepared her rescue, in advance of its emergency.  Whatevs, Baelish. Which accent will we be trying out today?  Our favorite lies-told-to-orphaned-maidens lilt?  

My hunch is that Shae is aboard the ship, in Littlefinger's employ.  I think Shae the funny whore was sent to Tyrion the god of tits and wine to spy on him by Littlefinger the sexpositing procurer, and also, to further estrange Tyrion from Tywin the rich man's Cromwell.  If you were Littlefinger, wouldn't you?  And if so, Littlefinger must have high-fived himself back when Tyrion came up with the idea of having Shae serve Sansa...

[stillshimpy]

My hunch is that Shae is aboard the ship, in Littlefinger's employ.  I think Shae the funny whore was sent to Tyrion the god of tits and wine to spy on him by Littlefinger the sexpositing procurer, and also, to further estrange Tyrion from Tywin the rich man's Cromwell.  If you were Littlefinger, wouldn't you?  And if so, Littlefinger must have high-fived himself back when Tyrion came up with the idea of having Shae serve Sansa.

By the way, isn't it darkly funny how the way the actor playing Littlefinger's delivery of lines makes the character more terrifying?  He's so oily, slimy and insincere.  The kind of person you can usual spot a mile away in real life and know to have your guard up whenever you're around them.  In Littlefinger's case, somehow that super obvious faux-charm and smoothness actually scares me more than the freaking Hound's bluntness.  "Hope The Stranger doesn't kill us in our beds for no damn reason at all."  directness. 

I think with Littlefinger the reason that false-flattery and good-humor doesn't serve as a warning is because everyone involved knows it is some kind of game.  Even Sansa who is not known for having any good judgment skills when it comes to men, has always seemed half-inclined to disbelieve and distrust him, from all the way back to his explanation of why he's called Littlefinger. 

I don't know, Pallas, I think Shae sincerely loves Tyrion.  I think that in a story like this it would be possible from someone to be sent as an agent or spy, but Shae seemed awfully sincere and has repeatedly turned down wealth and freedom from the life of a maid in order to stay near him.  Littlefinger just can't pay that damned well that a bag of diamonds is the second choice.  Although, there is one thing that might support your theory.  Roz warned Shae about Littlefinger being a snake and scorpion all in one.  We've never been told how Littlefinger found out that Roz was working for Varys.  There doesn't really need to be a way though, we know he has spies everywhere and Roz met with Varys.  

Anyway, I tend to think that Shae is a) not gone from the story as much as I wish she could be.  An offscreen departure is not to be trusted, although since Shae wasn't a major character, maybe it was budgetary that she didn't get a "sailing off to her new life" shot.  However, since in this story loving someone is used as leverage, a weakness or an explanation for someone's worst character traits?  She likely didn't get away that easily.  b) since Littlefinger is apparently holed up somewhere close enough that he can be reached under cover of fog, I think if Shae is on that ship it is because Littlefinger had her kidnapped from the one she was on, to use as leverage against Tyrion (see "Loving someone is used as a weakness in this story" as my explanation).  If Littlefinger has designs on Sansa, which makes a helluva a lot more sense than having designs on Lyssa Aryn , then he needs Sansa to not have a husband any longer.  So that's why Littlefinger might quickly apprehend Shae on her way out of town. 

So she might be on that ship, I just doubt she's in Littlefinger's employ.  

ETA: Oh also?  Our speed watch took less than 25 minutes.  The first time out the Littlefinger reveal kept my mind so engaged that I didn't really focus on the "Oh good, tedium" of both Stannis and the Wall stories.  But they're pretty freaking tedious, seriously.  

Edited April 22, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

off topic!

I hope Dorne is having a good effect on Myrcella. Free love and flowing booze would be a nice upgrade from the standard Lannister fare.

btw. I had to look up how to spell her name on the character guide.

[abelard]

I hope Dorne is having a good effect on Myrcella. Free love and flowing booze would be a nice upgrade from the standard Lannister fare.

 

It would be awesome if Myrcelle turned into basically a rich hippie in Dorne.  Cersei would know wtf to do with that.  

[Pallas]

Direwolf Pup and abelard, I just laughed out loud at my desk at work at the image of Myrcella greeting Cersei at the Dornish docks, decked out for the dawning of the age of Aquarius.  "Welcome, Mother.  Welcome...to Love."  

And then Cersei's Nixonian reaction.  

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

No, what is curious to me is who this "they" is that tried to get Podrick to testify against Tyrion. Obviously, someone is ok with Tyrion taking the fall for this. But who? I feel as if if Littlefinger is responsible for the actual poisoning then he would not truly care who was accused. He has an alibi such that he was on his way to the Eyrie! How could he have done it?

Hmmm, I don't know, Littlefinger might specifically want tyrion executed for the crime to free up his wife. Although since the marriage was unconsummated, it might not matter. (But is that a matter of public record at this point?)

[justawatcher]

Let's go back to this Shae on the ship thing. Tyrion buys passage for Shae on a ship going across the sea. Perhaps she's on that boat. Perhaps it's the exact same boat that Littlefinger is on as well. But, the true destination is not across the sea but Littlefinger's destination. A diverted destination may have been what allowed that boat to dock in the harbor. The whole passenger lot may think they're on a booze cruise across the sea but in reality, they're getting diverted by LF to wherever.

Oh, and a LMAO for ya'll- I hear a feminist, political type viewer remarking about the Jamie/Cersei scene- "He can't do that. No means no. Rape is rape. They can't portray that on TV" etc. and all I could think was "You must not have been watching before this, because incest rape by the dead body is about par for GoT. This is not that unusual."

[Pallas]

By the way, isn't it darkly funny how the way the actor playing Littlefinger's delivery of lines makes the character more terrifying?  He's so oily, slimy and insincere.  The kind of person you can usual spot a mile away in real life and know to have your guard up whenever you're around them.  In Littlefinger's case, somehow that super obvious faux-charm and smoothness actually scares me more than the freaking Hound's bluntness.  "Hope The Stranger doesn't kill us in our beds for no damn reason at all."  directness.

I think with Littlefinger the reason that false-flattery and good-humor doesn't serve as a warning is because everyone involved knows it is some kind of game. -- stillshimpy

 

So true.  And the actor makes a choice about when to really trowel on the unctuous -- with royalty and the ladies, mostly -- and when to towel himself off from the splashback, smile at the joke and then deal "candidly" with serious men like Ned and Tywin. Which gave weight to his cautioning Ned not to trust him.  After his seemingly straightforward depiction of the lay of the land in King's Landing, that warning seemed like a parting jest, an ironic nod to the game-of-being-Petyr.  

It was masterful.  The perfect courtier: adjusting his presentation to reflect what he perceives his interlocutor wants of him.  I think perhaps only Cat (in Renly's camp) and Varys, sometimes, get glimpses of the genuine article.  Avidity mixed with guile milked with grievance heightened by rage tempered with foresight.

I think Shae sincerely loves Tyrion.  I think that in a story like this it would be possible from someone to be sent as an agent or spy, but Shae seemed awfully sincere and has repeatedly turned down wealth and freedom from the life of a maid in order to stay near him.  Littlefinger just can't pay that damned well that a bag of diamonds is the second choice.

 

I think Shae does love Tyrion, and we maybe have ourselves another Carrie Matheson situation here.  The spy who falls for the subject.  I think too the irony may be that, despite her falling within Littlefinger's orbit, she never was a whore.  She may have come to him when down on her luck after fleeing the East and asked for work.  In the interview process (which we know is comprehensive), Littlefinger realized that Shae was in no way self-effacing or circumspect enough for whoring, but was perhaps uniquely qualified to appeal to an odd duck like Tyrion.  And there he was, with an opening for a spy on the Lannister second son.  

Ah, but now I have to figure out how that would work within the timeline.  Shae was brought to Tyrion by Bronn when they had returned from the Eyrie and were in camp, about to be fight...I forget which opponent.  So it seems to me that at that time, Littlefinger was in Renly's camp rather than King's Landing.  Okay, this idea needs some work...

[DirewolfPup]

One of my goals this weekend is to watch the Bran Tree-Vision scene a few times, maybe frame by frame. There's a lot there, and I'm sure I missed at least 1/3 of it. Plus, all that stuff is bound to come up again.

The OP (finally) delivers!!

Some scenes are shown more than once. Those are denoted with a *. All quotes are in bold and itallics.

1. *Weirwood Tree in the distance (1 of 4)
2. *Close up of tree bark, or possibly roots? (1 of 2)
3. A clip of the 3-eyed raven from the S01 Bran dreams
4. The 3-eyed raven flys down the catacombs beneath Winterfell
5. Ned sharpens his sword (RIP Ned and sword). A clip from S01E01
6. Ned in Kings Landing dungeons. Close up of his eye
7. A time-lapse showing weather changing
8. *Weirwood Tree in the distance (2 of 4)
9. Voice says "Look for me" while a clip of the 3-eyed raven from S02 plays
10. A clip of the Weirwood tree from S03E09 (Sam and Gilly, with the crows). This is a close up of just the "face" portion of the tree.
11. The dead girl from S01E01
12. Raven/crow flock chasing scene from S03E09. You only see the ravens/crows.
13. *Close up of tree bark, or possibly roots? (2 of 2)
14. *Weirwood Tree in the distance (3 of 4) while voice says "Beneath the Tree"
15. Zompony
16. See the snowy throne room from Dany's vision S02E10.
17. Whitecast fade away to...
18. ~~A new image. It's some sort of reflection. You can see a shadowy face, reflection of someone's face, or possibly a spirit of some sort.
19. A crow/raven
20. *Bran falling from the tower (1 of 2) while Cersei from S01E01 says "He saw us!"
21. A new image. We see the shadow of a large dragon flying over Kings Landing.
22. *Bran falling from the tower (2 of 2)
23. *Weirwood Tree in the distance (4 of 4) while voice says "North"

 

Then Bran removes his hand from the tree. One bit that stands out is 20-22. Bran falls. Dragon. Bran falls. His falling flanks this big scene of the dragon possibly (finally) attacking Kings Landing. Bran's accident, and therefore his gifts, could be a key to unlocking something with dragons. Dragon warging perhaps?

~~I watched this clip about a dozen times. I can't make out what the scene is at all. All I know is that it looks super creepy. It could be the children of the forest, maybe?

Edit: Learned how to spell Weirwood. Thanks, SilverStormm!

Edited April 23, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[skiddy]

Alpha line & Izabella: I also can't quite understand what's going on with Stannis. We discussed him on these boards 2 weeks ago and everyone pretty much agreed that he was going North, since...season 3 made it clear. The only question back then seemed to be: when will the witch get rid of him?

 

Then, all of a sudden, change of plans, we'll burn a few more people for heating purposes and sit around looking for gold and men. Okay, Joffrey died and I can see why that could make Stannis think twice about the way forward, but that is definitely not in line with the Stannis of end of Season 3, who couldn't care less about mortal Westeros politics, and only wanted to reach the Wall.

 

My spitball on this whole affair is now that the "money situation" that seems to have appeared in Dragonstone is only meant to get Davos to Bravos (for the rhyme's sake), refocus the story on him, and quickly make Stannis disappear.

[MrMicrophone]

justawatcher,

It's more brutal than other rapes shown, because we had started to sympathize with Jaime. Sympathetic characters are not Supposed To rape unsympathetic characters. (Does anyone sympathize with Cersei?)

That said, as a feminist, I'm damn bloody glad that someone's doing this. We ought to talk about whether Jaime has crossed the moral event horizon -- this is on par with "tried to kill a young boy" -- or maybe it's even worse. Because (the attempted) killing Bran was done to save "The Kingdom" (and his kids, and his lover, etc).

This? This is sheer cruelty.

[DirewolfPup]

I'm a Cersei sympathizer. Did a whole post about her in the episode thread.

 

Actually, why is no one else reacting at all the the news from The Wall? Maester Aemon had Sam send 44 letters around Westeros. Does no one else care?

[justawatcher]

Spitball:

The more I think about it, whomever killed Joffrey did it at the wedding precisely so there would be no claims of a wedding night child. Who would have the anti-Lannister thoughts and the finesse to pull it off? Stannis and Bolton are too clumsy to have the finesse. Dany wouldn't do it with stealth but in your face. So, I am going to go with either the Dornish or some character we haven't met yet via Varys and Littlefinger. Those two have the ability and we're still not sure where their alliances lay. Varys seems to have a lot of connections off island and who knows with Littlefinger.

[AlphaLine]

Alpha,

no one was supporting Stannis at any point. Hence why he was desperate enough to try listening to Mel in the first place.

But that is clearly absurd. Even if you assume half his army died at the Blackwater, his troops should still be numbering in the tens of thousands. Which is not so. My guess is, over the course of a season and a half they just got fed up of burnings and other antics, and simply left. ( like Karstarks ). The only people supporting him now are lord of light fanatics and people who are scared into doing so for fear of being burned.

My spitball on this whole affair is now that the "money situation" that seems to have appeared in Dragonstone is only meant to get Davos to Bravos (for the rhyme's sake), refocus the story on him, and quickly make Stannis disappear.

 

Yeah, I'd agree. I feel sorry for the Stannis actor. He doesn't get to do anything other than pouting, scowling and being grumpy. The Dragonstone storyline isn't about him anyways ( that should be clear by now ), it's mainly about Melisandre and the Lord of Light. I think his end will come pretty soon, and will be burned by Melisandre as a sacrifice .

Davos I don't know. There is some speculation in the epsiode thread that he and the pirate would team up and steal gold from Iron bankers. That would be totally cool to watch, but I think after that they should just go somewhere else ( not Stannis ), like say, Team Dany. It would make sense, Davos' loyalty to Stannis is somewhat of a plot hole if you think about it.

Actually, why is no one else reacting at all the the news from The Wall? Maester Aemon had Sam send 44 letters around Westeros. Does no one else care?

 

Pretty simple really. No one cares. They think the white walkers don't exist and the wildings are the problem of the Night's Watch. Or the North, at most ( ie. Lord Bolton ). Even Stannis doesn't care, he only wanted to go because Melisandre told him. I guess Mel changed her mind sometime and thats why they are sitting around and burning stuff and such.

[MrMicrophone]

Alpha,

Yeah, of course he has/had some few troops. My point was that Robb/other Large Lords, and a good deal of his ancestral Small Lords (level of Frey and Bolton) weren't happily supporting him. Obviously some of them were following him, just not all (most followed Renly).

[n.b.: Small/Large lords are terms of my devising]

[gingerella]

I realize my opinion is not going to be popular, and I was a bit surprised at my reaction on a personal level, because I felt ZERO sympathy or empathy for Cersei. None whatsoever. In fact, I felt like she deserves every awful thing that life can possibly serve up to her. I know, as a woman, it is surprising to me that I didnt feel anything for that character other than, "She probably gets off enjoying this weird game." But to me, my reaction illustrates how well these actors play their parts if I can see a rape scene and feel nothing because the person in question is so vile and detestible.

Somone said, maybe its on the epi thread**, that maybe this is their weird, demented game. Honestly? I find it difficult to accept that Cersei no longer wants to swim in the twincest pool anymore. Sure, maybe seeing how fucked twincest offspring can be (*cough*Joffs*cough), maybe she realized finally how screwed up her actions were, but this is Cersei we're talking about and, well, she doesnt seem to me like someone who learns from her mistakes in life. Rather, she seems like she just gets meaner, nastier, and sinks deeper into that shit sundae that is her life.

So yeah, I dont buy for a minute that she's suddenly quit the twincest mambo. Hence part of why I having trouble mustering up any feelings for her when her twin decides to force himself on her. If I am being totally honest? I snorted when they cut to her hand clutching the fabric at the end of that scene because it felt like cinematically they were telling us that she wasn't so disgusted with Jamie after all, and all I could think of was how fitting it would be if Joff's dead corpse rolled off the table and on to both his incestuous parents. Come on folks, I cant be the only one who thought that, am I?

**There are just too many damn threads right now here to have a coherent conversation. I wish we could go back to one long thread because at least everything was contained in that once place. Convos that start out about the epi quickly turn into spec and it is confusing to know whether to move the convo here or continue in the epi thread.

Edited April 24, 2014 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

**There are just too many damn threads right now here to have a coherent conversation. I wish we could go back to one long thread because at least everything was contained in that once place. Convos that start out about the epi quickly turn into spec and it is confusing to know whether to move the convo here or continue in the epi thread.

I'm with you here. I realized that my "why did the Robert rebellion start" posts are pretty much all speculation and should probably be over here.

[stillshimpy]

All right, bringing this over here from the episode thread, to help avoid confusion.  I actually like having more than one thread.  Just a cursory glance at this area shows we already have more than 1000 posts since the beginning of this season alone, so I can see wanting to break it up for other people to be able to follow along or join in without that many posts to sift through first.  

 

Anyway, DirewolfPup, you've asserted that you don't think Ned Stark would have joined Robert's Rebellion just to get Lyanna back.  From the episode thread: 

 

 

Except Tyrion's a male. Big difference there.

Shimpy, if you're right, then Ned didn't go to war just for Lyanna anyway. So we agree on that point :)

Yeah, but Rhaegar was a married man with at least two children already.  So no matter what circumstances Lyanna Stark was with him under, whether he kidnapped her, or they ran away to better run through fields of daisies while expressing their love for one another in song, or whatever it was a HUGE insult to her honor and the Starks.  It would ruin her for marriage entirely in the eyes of many and would be akin to killing her.  The slight on the family's honor would be beyond a slap in the face.  It would be akin to rape, even if it was a fully consensual relationship, because Rhaegar would be ruining her honor.  

 

Remember from this most recent episode, the farmer talking about how hopefully The Mother would guard his daughter's virtue?  That's what Rhaegar Targaryen took from Lyanna, because the dude was married as it was.  He was ruining Lyanna Stark's honor, even if it was a grand love.  It was an extremely dishonorable act.  From what we've seen of this world, the only person a married man can have extra-marital relationships with are paid companions.  So Rhaegar was making Lyanna Stark his whore (as an aside, I hate using that word to describe any woman, but that's how it would be viewed in this society). 

 

That much of a slight to the Stark family honor would warrant a war.  Girl, boy, doesn't matter and because Rhaegar was the crown prince and heir, it meant the entire country was involved, instead of it being a skirmish between bannermen.   That's part of the reason I doubt the timeline was that Brandon and Papa Stark went to the King to ask for Lyanna's return.  Rhaegar was married in  a world where we have no reason to believe that there is any such thing as divorce and he'd just ruined the only Stark daughter's virtue, even if by some miracle he wasn't boning the girl.  That's really big and they wouldn't likely go unarmed to the capital to ask for her back. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy:

"Girl, boy, doesn't matter..."

So, Dornish?

(Sorry, can't figure out how to quote here on an iPhone.)

[stillshimpy]

They do have the best wine, Stumbler.  I think that shows the basic rightness of all that they are ;-) 

[WhiteStumbler]

Can I just say how awed I am by the quality of the posts here? Amazingly insightful contributions from everyone, and, thanks to gingerella, all I can think about are Rubik's cubes. Thanks!

[stillshimpy]

and, thanks to gingerella, all I can think about are Rubik's cubes

So my husband's birthday was this week and one of the gifts I got him was a Rubik's cube, because c'mon....how could I not after I saw it at Barnes and Noble? Making me think of Spitball Walls and cracking me up in public?  Why was I cracking up?  Have you all seen what the 2013 version of it?  5x5?  So I'm standing in a bookstore, avoiding the fantasy section like it has legs and might start pursuing me if I let my guard down, turn a corner, see this and almost fell down laughing.  

 

You're in my head gingerella, you are in.my.head.  

Edited April 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[AlphaLine]

Re: Direwolfpup. Thanks for that list of Bran visions

 

Because I was intrigued by this, I rewatched the Bran clip. One idea I have is that Bran is seeing stuff from the POV of other people, and these include weirwood trees ( as they are magical and have 'eyes' ). These events occur in the past, present or future.

 

But some of them are also visions and prophecies.
Here's the list of POVs

 

*Weirwood Tree in the distance (1 of 4) - ?? Maybe himself, at an earlier time
*Close up of tree bark, or possibly roots? (1 of 2)
A clip of the 3-eyed raven from the S01 Bran dreams - vision/dreams
The 3-eyed raven flys down the catacombs beneath Winterfell - Himself, at an earlier time
Ned sharpens his sword (RIP Ned and sword). A clip from S01E01 - Weirwood tree
Ned in Kings Landing dungeons. Close up of his eye - Varys
A time-lapse showing weather changing - ??
*Weirwood Tree in the distance (2 of 4) - ??
Voice says "Look for me" while a clip of the 3-eyed raven from S02 plays -??
A clip of the Weirwood tree from S03E09 (Sam and Gilly, with the crows). This is a close up of just the "face" portion of the tree.
The dead girl from S01E01 - The Night's watch guy
Raven/crow flock chasing scene from S03E09. You only see the ravens/crows.
*Close up of tree bark, or possibly roots? (2 of 2) - Sam or Gilly
*Weirwood Tree in the distance (3 of 4) while voice says "Beneath the Tree"
Zompony - vision/dream
See the snowy throne room from Dany's vision S02E10. - vision/dream
Whitecast fade away to...
~~A new image. It's some sort of reflection. You can see a shadowy face, reflection of someone's face, or possibly a spirit of some sort. - ??
A crow/raven
*Bran falling from the tower (1 of 2) while Cersei from S01E01 says "He saw us!" - His wolf*
A new image. We see the shadow of a large dragon flying over Kings Landing. - A dragon**
*Bran falling from the tower (2 of 2) - His wolf
*Weirwood Tree in the distance (4 of 4) while voice says "North" - ??

 

*The angle of the fall makes it clear he is seeing through his wolf's eyes, who was sitting under the tower at that time.

 

**At first I thought dragon rider, but that clearly can't be so, otherwise we'd have seen parts of the dragon. So it is the POV of the dragon itself, and a very large dragon at that. Considering the size of the shadow it casts, I'd say it's about 200 feet long and the same wingspan. Dany's dragons are a tenth that size at the moment, so unless they grow up in record time I'd say this isn't the future, but rather the past, when Aegon the conqueror arrives in King's Landing.

Edited April 25, 2014 by AlphaLine

[gingerella]

I am glad to see the new Rubik's Cube seems to have more squares because, yanno, A Show has many threads to pull together under each element...

[AlphaLine]

I was thinking of the characters that have not appeared so far..

1. Gendry

2. Rickon/Osha

3. Yara and the 50 killers

4. Balon Greyjoy

5. The Brotherhood.

I think, if they don't appear in the next episode there is a good chance they won't be appearing in the whole season. Especially so for 2, 4 and 5.

There's also Qyburn, Mance Rayder, Lysa etc. who will probably make an appearance sooner or later, and also people missing for a long time, like Benjen Stark, Lancel Lannister..

[stillshimpy]

I think in those circumstances the Targs could have compensated the Stark honor somehow.

 

I'm pretty sure what makes the Starks truly honorable, rather than "honorable" in the way most of the Seven Kingdoms are is that they can't be compensated for honor which is why it's actually honor vs. their price. 

 

That's also why they are almost all deader than door nails, smoking like firepits, scattered, on the run under an alias or in the power of Littlefinger because of trusting a drunk with a necklace and a pretty tale.  

[Isazouzi]

Why does it take so long for the White Walkers to actually get ... well, somewhere? Granted, they walk somewhat slowly, but still...

 

Where does Dany's army get their supplies?

Food - ok, Dany mentioned livestock. But what about water? In the, you know, desert?

Where did they find the wood to build those war machines thingy they used to throw the collars?

 

And ok, most of Westeros does not seem to care about the WW or believe in them, but they should care about the wildlings coming. And does nobody know/ care that the NW is so undermanned?

 

I think the WW, besides being slow, are building their own army on the way, which means making some detours to kill wildlings. I honestly see no other explanation.

 

The people of Westeros don't believe in WW and they don't care about wildlings, because they see them as a bunch of savages who don't get along and spend their time fighting among themselves. So no real threat for the armies of Westeros. They don't know that Mance actually managed to organize them. And that is why the Wall is undermanned, because it's become an excuse to get rid of all the rapers and thieves of the 7 kingdoms. I think it's Ned (or some other Stark) who said it used to be an honor to belong to the Night's Watch. Now no one wants to go there (and who could blame them really?) because no one sees the point anyway.

 

As for Dany's army, no idea. Maybe they took apart the cities they've freed and used the wood for the catapults? I suppose they took the food and water too. I'm sure the Unsullied are trained to survive on very little. And also, it's TV. ;-) I mean how did the people of Westeros survive winters that lasted several years?

[MrMicrophone]

Rhaegar was killed by Robert, but somewhere that wasn't King's Landing, I'm nearly certain of it. (Come to think of it, why isn't Robert around when Ned comes in and sees Jaime? Was Robert even in the same Kingdom?).

 

If The Kingsguard are in Dorne, that means someone of Royal Blood (or close enough) is in Dorne. That's either Dany/Viserys or Lyanna, I think.

[MrMicrophone]

As for dany's army? They're on trade routes, there will be oases (Like Las Vegas!)

[DirewolfPup]

AlphaLine

Zompony - vision/dream

This would be through Sam's eyes since he saw the WW and Zompony in S02E10

Rhaegar was killed by Robert, but somewhere that wasn't King's Landing, I'm nearly certain of it. (Come to think of it, why isn't Robert around when Ned comes in and sees Jaime? Was Robert even in the same Kingdom?).

 

If The Kingsguard are in Dorne, that means someone of Royal Blood (or close enough) is in Dorne. That's either Dany/Viserys or Lyanna, I think.

Maybe Rhaegar and Robert's forces were fighting out in the fields like Lannisters vs Starks. Ned's division of the army could have gone after King's Landing at the same time because their defenses were weak.

 

This is so confusing. Can't we wiki this? Just this once? ;) 

[stillshimpy]

This is so confusing. Can't we wiki this? Just this once?

 

Only if you wish to be banished to the Kingdoms of the Unspoiled where the wine is plentiful but the grog is weak. We did know that Robert was off killing the hell out of Rhaegar Targaryen at a different location when Ned took the Throne Room.  That's all stuff from three different scenes.  Okay, here we go on the "how we know Robert was related to the Targs."  anothermi did a screen capture on the book that Ned looked at to determine that all Barathenons were dark-haired.  That revealed Targs in his ancestry. 

 

Jaime asked Ned why he didn't take the throne for himself.  Also in Season One.  On the road to King's Landing Ned and Robert talked about the war and Robert sounded a tad deranged when it came to all things Targaryen, when they had their picnic and Robert asked what his camp follower's name was -- Jon's mother -- and Ned replied "Willa".   So we got some information from there.  

 

When Selmy Barristan caught up with Dany, he apologized for failing to protect her brother Rhaegar.  Then most recently when Joffrey pointed at the Kingsguard lists , there was some more information about where Eddard Stark killed someone from the Kingsguard.  

 

On occasion Joffrey has also been known to start yammering about what his father did and didn't do, and Bran said a bunch of useful things in that scene where Luwin was instructing him.   But we've known for a while that Robert killed Rhaegar at a different location, because it was part of a big debate about how in the world Jon could be Lyanna's son when it was Robert who got to Rhaegar (the conclusion was that she might have been somewhere else too).  

Edited April 25, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Anothermi]

Helloooooo... *waves* *cranes neck* *searches for something familiar & stumbles into Unspoiled Speculation Thread*

 

Wow.  It seems like yesterday I was mourning the demise of the TWoP thread and *poof* in what feels like an instant (OK, I was away which might account for the swift passage of GoT time) I'm "mourning Joffrey" and we've moving into digs so swanky that I'm having trouble finding my bearings.

 

It's good to be back surrounded by unspoiled faces (some familiar and some not but all friendly at least - and clever). It IS a little disconcerting to adjust to all. this. space. and the presence of benevolent White Cloaks (but thank you so much for that presence).

 

There has been so much great speculation.  I think I'll leave this post as my "I'm Home!" greeting and go off in search of posts to quote to assist my own spitball forming thoughts.  Be back soon.

[AlphaLine]

After doing a rewatch I think the scene that bothered me the most was Sam packing off his girlfriend to the whorehouse. There are so many things wrong with that I don't know where to start. It would be dumb even if that village wasn't under imminent threat of attack by the Uruk hai. Just saying.

 

Speaking of which, the actor playing the chief of the Uruk hai is really enjoying himself. It's like 'Wooh yea. We should have done this years ago. It's like an all you can eat buffet down here'.

[Llywela]

Why does it take so long for the White Walkers to actually get ... well, somewhere? Granted, they walk somewhat slowly, but still...

...I just realised that I've always assumed they are building up strength up north while waiting for winter to reach the south. But I don't know why I've assumed that. Maybe because the white walkers come from the frozen north and have only appeared now, when, as we used to be told all the time, winter is coming. So I just assumed that they are creatures of winter and won't go south until the snow gets there. I don't think this belief has any basis in anything we've been told. It's just my assumption based on what little we've seen of the WW so far.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine the White Walkers shambling down the beach in the tropical sun, so I guess I've assumed that they actually need winter to roll forward.  As in Winter to spread throughout the land 

 

As for why none of the people of the Kingdom are reacting, I'm assuming it is because no one believes the news and it is a little difficult to entirely blame them.  Although A Show is cheating like crazy in pretending Allister Thorne never set off for King's Landing with that hand, or cheating like mad in not showing us what happened at the point that he arrived.  

 

That's sort of the same thing with the tiny amounts of information we've been able to glean from the books shown within the show.  No one, other than us, is actually catching that so I can't even imagine how confused a casual viewer would be.  Admittedly, the answer to that is likely in the "casual" meaning they don't spend a ton of time trying to figure it out, which is a fair approach too. 

 

Welcome back, Anothermi.  I see you've caved to the uppercase pressure! That's okay, you can still share my grog! 

[abelard]

Hey it's anothermi!!! (I'm still rolling lower-case style.)  WELCOME TO THE NEW SPITBALL WALL!!!!!!!!  Great to have ya.

I never thought about the winter thing being totally necessary to WW movement, but that is completely reasonable.  WHEN IS WINTER COMING??!!  However, I must admit I will be a bit sad when this entire show looks like it does at the Wall.  It's nice to go between the snowy (Jon Snowy) Wall, sunny KL, superhot desert-y Eastern Slave Lands across the Narrow Sea, gloomy stormy Dragonstone and the Sherwood Foresty woods where Arya has been for two seasons now.  It will be depressing when everything just looks the same, won't it?  

[Pallas]

Hi, Anothermi -- so good to see you!  I'm sure it will take you no time at all to get your bearings in the Habitat, where we of Species Spitball are free to roam and speculate companionably and cluelessly.  We will of course respect your need to mourn Joffrey for a decent interval.

 

Okay!  -- on with the games. 

[Anothermi]

Welcome back, Anothermi.  I see you've caved to the uppercase pressure! That's okay, you can still share my grog! 

 

Hey, I broke out the upper case so as to fit in with the upper class environment we have here.  But grog! goes with anything.  Glad to be back.

[Anothermi]

Here's the list of POVs

 

*Weirwood Tree in the distance (1 of 4) - ?? Maybe himself, at an earlier time

*Close up of tree bark, or possibly roots? (1 of 2)

A clip of the 3-eyed raven from the S01 Bran dreams - vision/dreams

The 3-eyed raven flys down the catacombs beneath Winterfell - Himself, at an earlier time

Ned sharpens his sword (RIP Ned and sword). A clip from S01E01 - Weirwood tree

Ned in Kings Landing dungeons. Close up of his eye - Varys

A time-lapse showing weather changing - ??

*Weirwood Tree in the distance (2 of 4) - ??

Voice says "Look for me" while a clip of the 3-eyed raven from S02 plays -??

A clip of the Weirwood tree from S03E09 (Sam and Gilly, with the crows). This is a close up of just the "face" portion of the tree.

The dead girl from S01E01 - The Night's watch guy

Raven/crow flock chasing scene from S03E09. You only see the ravens/crows.

*Close up of tree bark, or possibly roots? (2 of 2) - Sam or Gilly

*Weirwood Tree in the distance (3 of 4) while voice says "Beneath the Tree"

Zompony - vision/dream

See the snowy throne room from Dany's vision S02E10. - vision/dream

Whitecast fade away to...

~~A new image. It's some sort of reflection. You can see a shadowy face, reflection of someone's face, or possibly a spirit of some sort. - ??

A crow/raven

*Bran falling from the tower (1 of 2) while Cersei from S01E01 says "He saw us!" - His wolf*

A new image. We see the shadow of a large dragon flying over Kings Landing. - A dragon**

*Bran falling from the tower (2 of 2) - His wolf

*Weirwood Tree in the distance (4 of 4) while voice says "North" - ??

 

*The angle of the fall makes it clear he is seeing through his wolf's eyes, who was sitting under the tower at that time.

 

**At first I thought dragon rider, but that clearly can't be so, otherwise we'd have seen parts of the dragon. So it is the POV of the dragon itself, and a very large dragon at that. Considering the size of the shadow it casts, I'd say it's about 200 feet long and the same wingspan. Dany's dragons are a tenth that size at the moment, so unless they grow up in record time I'd say this isn't the future, but rather the past, when Aegon the conqueror arrives in King's Landing.

Thank you for your painstaking work on this DirewolfPup and AlphaLine.

 

I found this visual list very enlightening and had an Ah Ha! spitball moment reading it (which means everybody duck as this is likely to be a badly flung one).

 

LOOK FOR ME........BENEATH THE TREE.......NORTH

 

*deep breath* What if Jojen has interpreted his "visions" wrong.  What if north doesn't mean north of the Wall, but means "The North" and the weirwood tree they are seeking is the one that represents The North and the one we continue to see in the credits at WinterPile!  That may be what Bran's "I know where we have to go" means (said with resignation).  Yikes.  If that is true, it means they will end up heading straight back towards Bolton and Co. and the Thenns, and the Wildling advance-murder party.   Wouldn't that be just the way this story rolls?  Mmm-huh? I think so, but I've been crazy wrong before so, as I warned, duck and cover.

[Isazouzi]

 

Admittedly, the answer to that is likely in the "casual" meaning they don't spend a ton of time trying to figure it out, which is a fair approach too.

 

Yeah, a friend of mine didn't understand why I was so confused by the unexpected change of actor for Daario, because she simply didn't remember Daario from the previous season. Just remembering the names of all the characters and their faces is already too much for her, and I think it's the case for a lot of viewers.

 

 

Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine the White Walkers shambling down the beach in the tropical sun, so I guess I've assumed that they actually need winter to roll forward.

 

I don't know, I'd like the show to explain (eventually, no rush, show) if the WW are the ones who bring winter or if they woke up because winter was coming back.

[ChocButterfly]

Welcome, Anothermi, I was wondering where you were. 

 

I always assumed the WW could only be in snow. Though, I'm not sure if it's the long winter bringing the WW, or the WW bringing the winter. Maybe it's both.

[stillshimpy]

Though, I'm not sure if it's the long winter bringing the WW, or the WW bringing the winter. Maybe it's both.

 

We do know that Winter can come without White Walkers though.  People like Catelyn (and therefore most of the adults in this story) have lived through Winters before.  Catelyn called Bran a child of Summer that he had yet to see a Winter in his lifetime.  As near as I can tell, this world only has two seasons, Summer and Winter, but Catelyn did talk about Winter as something that had happened prior to Bran being born.  It's just apparently there had been a very long "Summer" which warns of a very long "Winter".  

 

Since Winter has come before and repeatedly, then I don't think the White Walkers bring Winter.  

[WhiteStumbler]

But WWs sure bring the cold! Remember the tendrils of frost snaking across the skin of the WW who rode past Sam just prior to the assault on the Fist of the First Men?

The Nights Watch is hosed. If they keep Mance's Wildling army North of the Wall, then the WW army will have that many more recruits after they shamble south.

Come on, SOMEONE who got one of the NW ravens has to take it seriously!!

[janjan]

Anothermi: Helloooooo... *waves* *cranes neck* *searches for something familiar & stumbles into Unspoiled Speculation Thread*

Anothermi! Welcome back! We saved you a seat by the fire (no, not that fire, a nice fire), and Shimpy has your grog, and it's only 40 minutes till showtime. WooHOO!

[Snowblack]

Run, Tyrion, run!!!  That's all I can think of...he needs to get smuggled out of King's Landing.  Maybe by Podrick and Jaime?  We know Varys won't help him, for the same reasons he woudln't help Ned.  And Tyrion is no better off than Ned in those last episodes as he sat injured and chained awaiting his fate.  Why, oh why didn't he just leave with Shae?  Now he has nowhere to go and no source of funds.  The next episode is about to start, and all I want is for Tyrion to get away somehow.

 

Oh, and I was thinking that Joffrey's murder was definitely Little Finger and Tywin.  Why else would Tywin basically hand Little Finger the Vale, and then send him off so that he would be above suspicion when the deed is done?  I've thought it through, and it's the only combination of conspirators that makes sense.

[90PercentGravity]

The fact that Tyrion is going to get a trial (if he lives long enough) may bode well, but is he going to get a fair trial or will it be a kangaroo court?

[Pallas]

is he going to get a fair trial or will it be a kangaroo court?

 

It's Tywin's kangaroo court.  But kangaroos are notoriously mercurial.