Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[Llywela]

The Unsullied Habitat lives again!

Never mind speculation about what lies ahead - I'll be happy if I can remember where we left everyone. Let's see. Jon and Sansa re-captured Winterfell for the Starks at long last, and Jon was declared King of the North. But their victory came via Littlefinger, who is sure to exact a price. Brienne (with Pod) is in Sansa's service, and the Wildlings in Jon's. How many of them will be in the death pool for this season, I wonder? Arya made it back to Westeros and started crossing names off her list. I can't see Show killing her. Cersei wiped out all the dignitaries in King's Landing in one fell swoop and had herself declared Queen, I really want her to die now. Jaime is still knocking about and is going to have to make a decision about sister dearest sooner rather than later. Theon and his sister hooked up with Dany and her crew, which now includes the entire Dothraki army, and they left her boytoy behind in Essos to start sailing across the Narrow Sea to Westeros at last, where we will finally get to see Dany interacting with the rest of the main cast, forming alliances and fighting battles. Who will be left standing? Bring on season seven!

Did I forget anyone?

Oh, Bran. Bran and Meera are alone in the snow just beyond the Wall, surrounded by danger. How long are they for this world? I think Bran is still needed for a while yet, and until alternate support is found for him, Meera is needed also, so they should be safe, surely...for now...

[WhiteStumbler]

Adding onto Llywela's post...

Dorne (yawn) and The Queen of Shade (Olenna Tyrell) have thrown their lot in with Dany as well. Dany named Tyrion to be her Hand. Jorah has been charged by Dany to go and find a cure for his greyscale.

Urine Greyjoy has been elected King of the Iron Islands and was last seen vowing to kill his niece and nephew.

Sam, Gilly, and Baby Sam are in Oldtown, with the Valyrian steel sword Heart's Bane that Sam swiped from his father.

Jon was revealed to be the son of Rhaegar Targaryen (son of the Mad King), and Lyanna Stark, Ned's sister. This may be significant later, since Rhaegar was married to Elia Martel at the time. Elia was later raped and murdered by The Mountain during the sack of King's Landing (which Oberyn her brother attempted to avenge at Tyrion's Trial by Combat), so the Dornish probably hate the Lannisters / Baratheons more than anyone, but probably have no love for the Starks.

Are the two extinguished Houses now Bolton and Baratheon? Is there anyone left who is either an actual Baratheon or ostensibly a Baratheon, since Cersei was crowned as a Lannister? (Gendry doesn't count since he is a bastard)

Septa Unella is being torture raped by FrankenMountain beneath the Red Keep, where Queen Cersei, her brother/lover Jaime, and Qyburn (ETA "are probably part of Cersei's very, VERY Small Council")

Bran is Beyond the Wall for now, but he has the mark of the King of the White Walkers on his arm, which was enough to overcome the magical protections of the Root Dude Cave - will that mark prevent Bran from crossing the Wall (Benjen said "The Wall is not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundations. Strong magic to protect men from what lies beyond, and while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass.")? Or will it cause the Wall to fail if Bran gets to the other side of it?

Mel has been banned from Da Norf and is headed south, where I will guess that she will cross paths with Arya...
Arya: You're a witch. You're going to hurt him (Gendry).
Melisandre: I see a darkness in you, and in that darkness, eyes staring back at me-- brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again.

I hope Arya stays at The Twins long enough to free her uncle Edmure. If she kills off all the other heirs to House Frey, would that make Edmure the head of House Tully and House Frey?

Speaking of Gendry, it looks like the only characters left on my previous Milk Carton Westeros list of missing characters are these...

Illyrio Mopatis (though Varys and Tyrion stayed at his digs on their way to meet Dany)
Warlocks of Qarth (can't think of a reason for them to be relevant at this late hour)
ETA: Hill Tribes (probably have also had their moment in the sun)
Hot Pie (hopefully still happily baking at the inn)
Gendry (last seen rowing away from Dragonstone)
and Nymeria, Arya's wolf.
Oh, and Knifey! The Most Distinctive Dagger in Westeros, and the cause of all of this bother.

Edited July 5, 2017 by WhiteStumbler
adds and grammar

[Llywela]

Thank you, WhiteStumbler, you remembered so much more than me! Granted, I've not rewatched a single episode since our group rewatch petered out at season one...

[gingerella]

Many thanks Llywela and White Stumbler, for reorienting my brain again. It has been a long time since we have spoken about such things and memory fails at times. With your musings I am at the ready for what is to come...Speaking of which, I laughed out loud WS, when I read 'Urine'...well played my friend. Probably the last time I laugh this season...

[Anothermi]

I, too, thank Llywela and White Stumbler for helping me remember where we left off. 

I'd kind of forgotten how many of our wishes (never expected to be fulfilled) came true last season.  I kind of forgot at what price as well. (I was inclined to make a current day analogy but decided it didn't need articulating).

I still feel a bit of trepidation in hoping for more of the retribution  we have longed for. GRRM would never have let us feel so totally rewarded in our lust for revenge. I believe we were given a "happy ending" of sorts due to the lack of a book to follow. I'm not sure I want a happy ending. This saga is not (IMHO) that sort of story.

However, I HAVE re-watched the final episode of S06 and there was one item that I had not remembered. Varys was in Dorne in one scene, and then on Daenerys invading ship in one of the last scenes. Don't know why I forgot (teleportation alert). But that seems to signal that Dorne and the Tyrells (as well as, surprisingly, the Iron Islands) are supporting Daenerys conquest of Westeros. Anyone.But.Cercei!

Cercei is in a precarious position.

Of course, Jon Snow - King in the North - has a completely different agenda that will sideline the conquering of Westeros agenda of Daenerys, BUT Little Finger was clearly unhappy about Jon's acceptance as Ned Stark's heir apparent. HIS problem is that Sansa watched his (shall we say) discomfort at the Lords of the North pledging their allegiance to Jon Snow. She has his number. 

Let the Game(s) continue.

[walnutqueen]

Wowza - thanks so much for the reminders of what I definitely watched, but somehow totally forgot!  I am now ready for Sunday evening ...

As is my Babalu kitty, who LIVES for being spanked all over his body in a drum solo to the entire GoT intro music.  I kid not, he hears the opening bars and jumps up to present himself for ecstatic "punishment" (he purrs so hard he drools just a little).

We both may be a little "touched".  ;-D

[Anothermi]

Good to see you back on watch at the Wall, walnutqueen.

[gingerella]

walnut queen, your kitty sounds like he has a penchant for S&M a la Joffs or Rams...watch thy back!

On 7/15/2017 at 2:03 AM, Anothermi said:

Of course, Jon Snow - King in the North - has a completely different agenda that will sideline the conquering of Westeros agenda of Daenerys, BUT Little Finger was clearly unhappy about Jon's acceptance as Ned Stark's heir apparent. HIS problem is that Sansa watched his (shall we say) discomfort at the Lords of the North pledging their allegiance to Jon Snow. She has his number.

Hmmm, anothermi, this jogged Ye Olde Grey Matter and what immediately came to mind was that Sansa might try to dethrone Jon for his safety, knowing she feels confident that she can play LF like a fiddle until she's ready to exact her revenge on him, useless fuckwit that he is. Just sayin'...

[walnutqueen]

On 7/15/2017 at 6:39 PM, Anothermi said:

Good to see you back on watch at the Wall, walnutqueen.

It's great to be back.  The Unsullied numbers may be dwindling, but we are fierce in our determination.  :-)

 

13 hours ago, gingerella said:

walnut queen, your kitty sounds like he has a penchant for S&M a la Joffs or Rams...watch thy back!

Nah - he's a total lovebug.  The only thing he hurts is my wallet.

I am SO looking forward to this Season.  I hope it is as satisfying as Arya's opening scene.  I'll be deliriously happy every Sunday night until it ends too soon; then I'll slink back into bitter resentment mode.

[Pallas]

Speculation, one I know we raised back at TWoP, and take up every now and again: what do the White Walkers want? Why now, and (new one) is Sam right that there may be a way to "break the wheel" of their marching every few millennia?  

Are these three things one answer? Do they want to go home? That's a science fiction trope, I know: the implacable antagonist who, it turns out, "just wants to go home/defend her young/post on forums..." but for a reason. "I want to go home" is something people say a lot, at stages throughout life and especially, near life's end. Does the Night King just want to be part of the family: is he the true Lord Stark and King in the North? 

He recognized Jon. He recognized Bran. (And sought to kill them, not catch up.) He may have recognized them as his descendants or as princes-and-prophets-among-men and his pre-destined foes, or both. If he were originally a Stark, I think it's clear he's one no longer. He's lost his moral compass. He's a user and an indiscriminate murderer who not has others do his killing, but uses human-kill to kill their own. He kills horses and then rides them anyway. And he (something) babies, rather than take them into his household, keep their secret origins from his wife and King, and send them off to join the Night's Watch. He's not a poor misunderstood creature; he's a monster. And as such, would stand as another of the author's arguments that blood tells -- and tells different verses. 

Why would this long night be different from all other long nights? Perhaps because the two Starks now leading the humans are each sensitive in a unique but equally un-Starkian way. Perhaps because "the breathing" are uniting across man-made divides greater than those between the First Men and the Children. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Pallas

[gingerella]

Pallas, such great questions! Why do the WWs arise only every 1000 or so years and indeed what the hell do they WANT? Surely that's a hellluva a long time in between marching. What are they doing for literally hundreds of years? I doubt there is some sort of Loser Lodge for the zombonies and their zomponies, but they accumulated sooo many dead people now, I mean, WTF are they after, particularly since they dont seem to stay put and nest in any way that we've seen so far. It's like theyre dormant for eons, then they thaw out and start marching, picking up the dead along the way as their army of destruction, and yet, WHY? It seems like the WHY of anyone who's bent on destruction around Westeros and environs is simply because they want revenge and/or power over others. So in that way, it could make sense for the NK to be a former Stark or someone close to the Starks and perhaps they let him down and allowed him to become a WW, and then King of the WWs, and he is pissed as all fuck that nobody ever came to try to rescue him so this is all revenge on his part. Wiping out the humans - his own kinfolk - who left him to rot and be reborn as a monster. In that hatred his monstrosity grows until he can barely remember WHY he does what he's doing at all. Then he sees Bran, he sees Jon, and something - a flicker in his memory banks literally from another lifetime - switches on for a moment and he remembers...And that makes him even MORE pissed off. Because he can see his kinfolk moved on without him and they dont even recognize him now.

All the above aside, I dont know if the NK is a Stark. It would be interesting if he had been a Targ though, who had been warmed by fire, and somehow left to rot north of the Wall. Perhaps he will revert back to a decent being once 'warmed' by Drogon or one of the dragonettes...But we have never had any glimmer of any of this being part of A Show's story, have we? We have guessed every which way, but it's just so unclear as to why the WWs march every now and again. They seem able to exist extremely north of the Wall so it's not for food or water or basic needs. Could they be looking for the CHoF, to get revenge on them for creating WWs in the first place? Or trying to find them to reverse the spells? And why couldn't the CHoF reverse their own magic spells? Why could they simply create another spell to do away with the WWs, that part makes zero sense to me. If they have the power to create a WW, surely they have/had the power to take them down as well.

And speaking of all things magical, I keep getting stuck on the part where Benjen says that strong magic spells were built into the Wall long ago, and no dead can pass through the Wall. Firstly, the CHoF saved Benjen from becoming totally dead, right? If they can do that, surely they can undo the WW magic. And secondly, if Benjen knows that the Wall holds spells that repel the dead, does that include WWs, because they're not really the same thing as the AotD or wights, yes? And even if they are, how could they be able to pass over or through the Wall with the magic is holds, unless that magic needs maintenance? Which brings us back to SAM! Maybe tucked away in one of those books or scrolls he stole from the Citadel, lies the way to reinforcing the magic of the Wall to be strong enough to hold against the AotD. Oy, I'm exhausted just thinking about this shit...

[Anothermi]

So I've done a re-watch of last episode and found a spitball forming during the scene where Jon Snow & Co are heading off to their ship with the dragonglass and off to get themselves a zomboni.  There is a scene between Tyrion and Jorah that strongly reminded me of the scene between Ned and Jon at the cross roads between the road to King's Landing and the road to the Wall. Famously Ned tells Jon they'll talk about his mother when they next see each other.  That has proved to be a recurring theme on this show.

Somebody's gonna die.

Tyion speaks fondly to Jorah and says he missed him. He reminded him of their time together captured as slaves to fight to the death for entertainment. He gives Jorah a coin that the slaver gave Tyrion when he suggested they be set free and paid. THEN he says Jorah must bring it back with him as his queen needs him. Next Jorah says goodbye to Dany and just as he was about to say something to her Jon strides into view and he doesn't say it.  The last shot of Jorah is a long look back over his shoulder at Dany (with a wistful look in his eye). I'd say that fits this show's trope close enough and Jorah's gonna make his papa proud. And die doing it.

 

ETA: While I'm on the topic of call backs to Season 1. The last scene of the Eastwatch episode called back to the very 1st scene of this show with the rangers heading north of the wall (and our first encounter with White Walkers). And right on cue I thought the same thought. Where are your HATS. Winter is HERE. You'll freeze your ears off!

Edited August 20, 2017 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

Wonderful speculation, G! 

On 8/16/2017 at 9:43 PM, gingerella said:

So in that way, it could make sense for the NK to be a former Stark or someone close to the Starks and perhaps they let him down and allowed him to become a WW, and then King of the WWs, and he is pissed as all fuck that nobody ever came to try to rescue him so this is all revenge on his part. Wiping out the humans - his own kinfolk - who left him to rot and be reborn as a monster.

We saw the Children of the Forest create the Night King by plunging a dragon-glass dagger into the heart of a First Man bound to a weirwood tree. To me, the First Man looked a lot like a Celt (specifically, like the actor Kevin McKidd); I believe we were meant to understand he was a Northerner. Perhaps a chief, a champion. Since we know the Starks descend from the First Men and stand at the center of this saga, I wondered...

But yes, the Night King absolutely could be vengeful. Took a dagger to the heart and was then dispatched to go do battle with the White Walkers. Who, instead, he came to lead -- like Jon Snow, with the Free Folk. 

On 8/16/2017 at 9:43 PM, gingerella said:

And why couldn't the CHoF reverse their own magic spells? Why could they simply create another spell to do away with the WWs, that part makes zero sense to me. If they have the power to create a WW, surely they have/had the power to take them down as well.

I'm not sure that's true; that is, I think that may be part of the moral. One of our failures as a species is that we create the means of our own destruction. And it doesn't have to be a weapon; it can be a way of being. The Targaryens did, with their conquest of Westeros: something in the the Seven Kingdoms -- or some byproduct of that conquest -- snuffed out the dragons, and the soon Targaryens followed.  Tywin did with his hatred of Tyrion. 

 

On 8/16/2017 at 9:43 PM, gingerella said:

Firstly, the CHoF saved Benjen from becoming totally dead, right? If they can do that, surely they can undo the WW magic.

Halted the process, but could not reverse it.  

 

On 8/16/2017 at 9:43 PM, gingerella said:

And secondly, if Benjen knows that the Wall holds spells that repel the dead, does that include WWs, because they're not really the same thing as the AotD or wights, yes? And even if they are, how could they be able to pass over or through the Wall with the magic is holds, unless that magic needs maintenance? Which brings us back to SAM!

I bet you're right on all counts. It seems the White Walkers are made only by the dragon-glass-to the-heart method, and from living human males: only babies, so that they have no allegiance to the living?  That does makes them different from all other slain. We saw the Walkers stride right through the Children's magic grenade burst, in pursuit of Bran. The Wall's spells may not affect them. Also, Benjen didn't explain why these magics weren't sufficient in themselves. And that does bring us back to Sam.  

What does the Night King want. As you pointed out, G, neither he nor his fellows nor his armies seem to require food, water, shelter, natural resources. Why would he want to expand his dominion? What good is power to him? Or is that the point, as well: he remains human insofar as to be human is to want, and to want is to want more? 

Is he moved mostly by vengeance, or by deeper forces. How much choice does he have. Is he as compelled to rise and march on the living as the three dragons were to hatch and fly? Where does the Lord of Light fit in? The Lord's followers are the only people in Westeros who believe in this threat without witnessing it directly, and who immediately move to confront it, above all else. Because the Night King's armies threaten the living, or because the Night King's very existence counters the Lord of Light? (Ice/fire?)  Can there be one without the other?

[Pallas]

16 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Tyion speaks fondly to Jorah and says he missed him. He reminded him of their time together captured as slaves to fight to the death for entertainment. He gives Jorah a coin that the slaver gave Tyrion when he suggested they be set free and paid. THEN he says Jorah must bring it back with him as his queen needs him. Next Jorah says goodbye to Dany and just as he was about to say something to her Jon strides into view and he doesn't say it.  The last shot of Jorah is a long look back over his shoulder at Dany (with a wistful look in his eye). I'd say that fits this show's trope close enough and Jorah's gonna make his papa proud. And die doing it.

I'm so sorry to say you've convinced me, Anothermi.  Jorah for sure, and, alas, Ser Davos, as well. Thinking of his mock-chiding Jon and Gendry, "Don't mind me; all I've done is live to a ripe old age," and his lovely little vignettes in "Eastwatch." Also, his telling Dany that he's "not a fighter" and Thormund that he'd "just be a hindrance" in the Band of Brooders. His death, along with Jorah's, would mean that Dany and Jon both lose their most trusted advisers in this ill-conceived scheme to appeal to Cersei's fellow-feeling. Thoros too (as Choc suggested), since no one is in real peril with Thoros at hand. 

Oh, dear Davos. We'll carve you a wooden onion and weep.

[Anothermi]

13 hours ago, Pallas said:

 

On 2017-08-16 at 6:43 PM, gingerella said:

Firstly, the CHoF saved Benjen from becoming totally dead, right? If they can do that, surely they can undo the WW magic.

Halted the process, but could not reverse it.  

Ezackly!  Benjen is halfway between a WW and a zomboni, but someone the CHoF  (possibly with the involvement of the 3ER.01) could actually utilize to fight on their side! The Night King was alive when they worked their magic to turn him into a WW. He may have retained his free will. Benjen was not only Dead, but was infected by whatever the WW used to turn corpses to their bidding. He had the missing piece of magic the CHoF needed to become the weapon they were looking for way back when.

----------------------------------------

I'm seeing the meta plot taking firmer shape recently. The Night King (Darkness/Ice) vs the Lord of Light (Duh!/Fire).  Despite the seeming random activities of the adherents of the LoL, they've all ended up joining the unlikely band of kidnappers that have assembled at Eastwatch.

In Essos (Mereen?) the adherents of the LoL exhorted the people to support Dany. Melissadre's "visions" led Stannis to the right spot at the right time, for the wrong reasons. (but as Berrick Dondarion said this episode: "It doesn't matter what our reasons are. There is a greater purpose at work..." )

Mercifully the hound cut the rest of his sermon short. BUT. Only Tormund and Jon are there because they have 1st hand knowledge of the threat. The rest of that little band are there, in some part, due to the machinations of the pesky Lord of Light.

I'm coming, more and more, to believe it was the Lord of Light who orchestrated the sacrifice of Varys man-parts as part of the over all scheme to oppose the "Darkness".  Here, let me just take these. You'll be of more use to me without them.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

I'm coming, more and more, to believe it was the Lord of Light who orchestrated the sacrifice of Varys man-parts as part of the over all scheme to oppose the "Darkness".  Here, let me just take these. You'll be of more use to me without them.

Hmmm, this is interesting...particularly the last bit...If Varys had not been defiled back then, he'd likely have never played such an important behind the scenes role as he has up til this very moment...Wow, this is interesting...Until now, I've basically just poo-poo'd the LoL completely, Smoke Baby notwithstanding.

[ChocButterfly]

Oh, such interesting speculation about the Night King being a Stark! It'd make sense, since we know the Starks are descedants form the First Men and the WW were created possibly when there were only First Men in Westeros. And maybe he has some kind of vision ability, like Bran. That's why he can sense Bran when Bran is warging near him. And, maybe, just maybe that is why the Dead were waiting all so patiently by that lake. Maybe he was expecting the dragons.

But I don't think he's moved only by vengeance. I have no idea about his motivations, but maybe he's just  following his new path. I mean, the Lord of Light is the god of the light, the living and fire, no? And he is against Darkness. That means he must have an antagonist in Darkness, Death and Cold itself. So, if there's a God of Light, there must be a God of Darkness. All religions have an antagonist to their Supreme Being. When the CoTF created them, they inadvertently tapped into some dark evil magic and created something for the Dark side to take advantage of. Otherwise, how would the WW have so much power? I could buy making a new species out of magic, but  the whole capacity of raising the dead and bringing out the cold and darkness to the world cannot be that easy to create. They must have help, powerful divine help.  

So, their main motivation is exactly that, end of all living, light and warm, to replace it with Death. Because that's who they serve. Just as Jon, Beric and Thoros have figured out that no matter how much they hate each other, they're all on the same side, the Living.  And they're waking up now, because all magic has been waking up for some time now, the Rubick's Cube you guys are always talking about. Maybe the WW believe a New Era is coming. The Era of the Dead. A new world order.

Or maybe I have been watching too much Star Wars or something.

[Anothermi]

Incoming spitball.......

- The Wight Walkers (hee, just made that one by mistake but I like it ... Heel. Sit. Stay.) now have a Dragon of their own

- We don't know if the Dragon will still be able to breathe fire, but I highly suspect it will

- BUT the AotD need a way through the Wall (as there is water on both sides and they don't do aquatics).

- The AotD could possibly swarm themselves up the sides of the wall, but they are not like flies and don't have sticky stuff on their hands and feet, so... unlikely. * I am, however, still awaiting the appearance of the spiders big as dogs. Some of the skeleton zombonies could ride them over the top of the wall and get the gate opened. * (Ok, I forgot about the strong magic in my flight of imagination. Crackle, crackle, snap, snap.)  So, nope to that idea too.

- BUT... Benjen told us that there is strong magic built into the wall and also said: “As long as it stands, the dead cannot pass. And I cannot pass.”

Here's my spitball... As long as it stands.

Fire melts Ice.

A Dragon may be able to melt a passageway through the Wall.  Or cut a whole section out of the Wall. Wouldn't have to be at any of the Night's Watch stations. Assuming, of course, that the Ice Dragon can still make fire, which I believe it can. That would bring that part of the Wall down. Standing no longer. Protected no longer.

That's it.  Why waste fire on the few humans still north of the Wall, or even those willing to come and face them north of the Wall? If the goal is, to quote ChocButterfly

Quote

the end of all living, light and warm, to replace it with Death

a way has to be found to destroy the Wall that has kept them separate from humans for millennia.

[Pallas]

Yes. And the Night King will, horribly, ride Visboni. The first (and last) being to do so. 

[ChocButterfly]

I have decided that zombie Dragon cannot possibly breathe fire. They're against fire, light and warm. Fire is the Lord of Light's weapon.  Plus, their army is allergic to it, fire destroys their natural habitat. And fire implies that the creature is somewhat alive, cuz heat is associated with life. So it wouldn't make sense. Maybe it will breathe ice. Or a cold breath that will freeze everything it touches. The complete opposite of the living dragon that burns everything.

What doesn't make sense to me is that the WW can walk through fire. And not just any fire, Dragon fire nonetheless!!! 

[Pallas]

That's true, Choc, and well said: fire = warmth and light, the dominion of the living. As you say, the saga's dyads are fire/ice, light/night, life/death. And you're right: how are they invulnerable to fire, including dragon-fire, when they are vulnerable to dragonglass and dragon-forged steel? What are they made of -- or rather, what do they become, from living flesh?  Obsidian is sharper than steel. (From Wikipedia: "Well-crafted obsidian blades, as with any glass knife, can have a cutting edge many times sharper than high-quality steel surgical scalpels.") Sharper but more brittle, of course. Are the White Walkers made of dragonglass (transformed into it)? 

So anyway, no more flames for Viserion. But breathing ice: does he, can he breathe now? Do Walkers breathe? (I'm assuming the Night King's touch made Viserion a Night Walker/Flyer, as that Midas touch was all that was needed to turn Craster's sons.) The Walkers clearly have volition, at least to some degree: those who lead sorties and serve as field generals in battles; the Walker with the Night King who anticipated his wanting the spear, and fetching it. And to paraphrase Jane Smiley about thoroughbreds, "they are all more closely related than cheetahs." 

Can the Night King warg into his White Walkers? Will he be able to see what Viserion can see? 

Oh. Shit. Back to, the Night King's touch. When he touched Brandon in Bran's vision, this led to the Night King's being able to track Brandon and the Three-Eyed Raven into the cavern. Shit. Has the Night King ever stopped being able to track Brandon? Did the magics of the Wall cause the Night King to lose Bran's psychic scent? And if not, can the Night King do more than track him -- can he share Bran's senses and/or visions, or even warg him? When Bran sent the host of ravens to the Night King, were they spying on him or speaking with him?  

Is Meera right: did Brandon Stark die in that cave? Is he not only the Three-Eyed Raven, but also a Trojan Horse? In the episode thread, White Stumbler wondered if the entire farcical expedition became a trap, with the Night King drawing Jon to the lake where he could spear, half-immolate, yet preserve the main of a dragon's body. 

If Brandon is effectively serving the Night King as his agent behind lines, is Brandon aware of that? And is he manipulating the outcome? Are Jon and Brandon, between them, the Stark siblings responsible for defeating the Night forces, while Sansa and Arya are the Stark siblings responsible for defeating the forces of Day-for-Night: Littlefinger and Cersei? 

[gingerella]

10 hours ago, Pallas said:

Is Meera right: did Brandon Stark die in that cave? Is he not only the Three-Eyed Raven, but also a Trojan Horse? In the episode thread, White Stumbler wondered if the entire farcical expedition became a trap, with the Night King drawing Jon to the lake where he could spear, half-immolate, yet preserve the main of a dragon's body. 

If Brandon is effectively serving the Night King as his agent behind lines, is Brandon aware of that? And is he manipulating the outcome? Are Jon and Brandon, between them, the Stark siblings responsible for defeating the Night forces, while Sansa and Arya are the Stark siblings responsible for defeating the forces of Day-for-Night: Littlefinger and Cersei? 

*rocking back and forth in a ball...in the corner...weeping and mumbling drunken nonsense*

[Pallas]

Don't despair, ginge!  I think that, in the long run -- well, the run of A Show -- Bran's visions will be a force for the good. A deciding force. The Night King shares with Cersei a smug conviction that I believe won't be rewarded: so far the final score for Smug Conviction on the antagonists' side has been 0-10 by way of golden crown, poisoned wine, dragonfire, crossbow, Moon Door, dragonfire, wildfire, hungry hounds, dragonfire and Faceless Teen. And perhaps the effects of the Night King's touch have already played out in the deaths of Hodor, the Children of the Forest and Summer, in the cave. And if not, I still believe that Bran will gain the upper mind. 

To me it's interesting that Jon, Bran and Arya each partake in the power of one god or another, and willingly or not: Jon and Arya through the Lord of Light/Red God, Bran through the Old Gods. Sansa abstains, and Dany too; I don't think Sansa has been seen in prayer by any tree since she married Ramsay under the weirwood, and Dany declared to Jon and Davos that she believed in no god, only herself. Will that change?  

[gingerella]

On 8/20/2017 at 0:18 AM, Anothermi said:

ETA: While I'm on the topic of call backs to Season 1. The last scene of the Eastwatch episode called back to the very 1st scene of this show with the rangers heading north of the wall (and our first encounter with White Walkers). And right on cue I thought the same thought. Where are your HATS. Winter is HERE. You'll freeze your ears off!

Anothermi, I too, recall thinking about the opening scene from S1E01, and I remember that first extended scene is what clicked with me and I thought, "I dont care what this show is about, this scene is going to make watching it worthwhile!" And yet, I saw the call back last week, but it did not elicit the same overwhelming feelings of wonder that I had back in that first ever scene. And that made me a bit sad. I feel like the sheen has worn off A Show, through both the unrelenting gore and violence (particularly against womenfolks) and the fact that so much of this show has been about evil triumphing over good (It's a trope we're unaccustomed to certainly!), and also because I feel like the showrunners have just sold out and want to tie this up ASAP so we're being dragged to the finish line at a pace that does not flatter A Show. Last season we got a wee respite with some comeuppance of good over evil, but it feels now as Winter is Finally Fucking Here, that the coldness of evil is beginning to gain strength and good is starting to wither away -  Witness exhibits A - H:

A. Dany has now lost a valuable dragon and the NK has gained one.

B. Jon Snow has been hurt to some extent thought I assume he will heal on the ship to wherever they're headed, Dragonstone most likely? He needs to survive because he really is the only leader who has his head screwed on straight. He leads from the heart and the head. He is Neddish at times, but pragmatic and forward thinking always, all ways...A Show needs that if light is going to win over darkness.

C. The Stark sisters are at serious odds with one another and LF ups that anty to create a potentially lethal situation in the making.

D. LF is still alive, WTF?!?

E. Bran has been hailed as the TER and as such, somehow the savior of mankind, and yet, he's done nothing more than sit under a tree since returning home to Winterfell. Okay, he warged into ravens to find the NK didn't he? But that's it so far, and that got the Band of Brooders in deep shit anyway.

F. Team BoB came up with the STUPIDEST plan ever to go capture a wight. Because...Cersei? That's moronic and an insult to A Viewer.

G. Varys is nervous about Tyrion getting Dany under control...not a good sign.

H. Cersei is still large and in charge. And all that can mean to me right now is that evil will triumph.

There are way more examples but my Brethren get the point, I'm sure...Basically, if evil wins over good at the end of this, it will be the worst ending that ever could have been. And I'm on pins and needles because we get this shitty abbreviated season now and with tonight being the last episode of the season, heading into the last EVEN SHORTER season, I dont have hope that the showrunners will do A Show justice anymore. Am I the only one feeling this way today?

ETA: I'm just mumbling aloud right now...nervous for what is to come later tonight...

Edited August 27, 2017 by gingerella

[Pallas]

I believe -- not just hope -- and have always believed, that this saga is the story of how the principles of the Starks, renewed in an historic and even more severely tested generation, will prevail. Even when the world seems undone; especially because without these principles, the world will be undone.

We have a season to go. It will probably get darker before the light. But from what I've seen, this saga is, finally, on the side of the vulnerable, the misbegotten, the humble, the humorous, the ethical, and the brave: those who forgive our frailties and work together, for life. 

[gingerella]

Hmmm, I am just sitting down to watch the season finale and purposely stopped on every opening credit piece where you can see the etchings on the sword blade, and I do now see that the first big scene on the blade is a volcanic eruption and a dragon seems to be dying. So, I assume that is depicting The Doom of Old Valyria.

 

But...what I also noticed was the next blade scene shows a dragon being taken down by a lion, a wolf and a stag. I wonder if this is a reference to Houses Lannister, Stark and Baratheon (vis a via Gendry) all working together to take down the ice dragon perhaps?

 

What I also saw was a final blade scene with tha Stag seeming to be in the center, triumphant, with a lion, two bears, and I think a wolf and a horse off to the right side, all together in somewhat harmony. I wonder...if this is a foretelling of how they want to end A Show, with Gendry as House Baratheon, taking the throne..or A throne...and the other houses living harmoniously? A large and small bear made me think of Lady Lyanna and Jorah...Hmmm...Okay, now on to S8/E07...

[WhiteStumbler]

48 minutes ago, gingerella said:

But...what I also noticed was the next blade scene shows a dragon being taken down by a lion, a wolf and a stag. I wonder if this is a reference to Houses Lannister, Stark and Baratheon (vis a via Gendry) all working together to take down the ice dragon perhaps?

I always took that to be a reference to Robert's rebellion, where the Stag, Lion , and Wolf all worked together to defeat the last Targaryen (the Mad King).

 

The Targaryens really like the name Aegon...

Aegon Targaryen was Aegon The Conqueror, but also, much later, there were other Targaryens named Aegon.

I think I have this right... Maester Aemon's brother was named Aegon (their father was Maekar). Aemon called him "Egg". After Aemon refused the throne, Aegon became king. It seems a bit weird that Maekar would name his second son after the founder of their dynasty, but that seems to be what happened.

Aerys (The Mad King) was the son of Aegon. The Mad King was father to Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany. Rhaegar had two children with his wife Elia Martel, named Rhaenys and Aegon. All three were killed in the sack of KL (supposedly by The Mountain), and Rhaegar was killed by Robert Baratheon.

After getting killed by Robert, Rhaegar's son with Lyanna Stark was born, and she named that son Aegon Targaryen (and he was raised as Jon Snow). Jon is the 5th (at least) Targaryen to be named Aegon, and, depending on the timing, there could have been two people alive named "Aegon Targaryen" at one time - the son of Rhaegar and Elia, and the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Edited August 28, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[gingerella]

WhiteStumbler, you are a walking one-man Citadel...! Were I to march on any front, I would want you at my side, to recall the history of each and every person, place and thing that would be important to know...I bend the knee to your academic Show prowess...

[ChocButterfly]

Thank you for all that KFH! (that's Kentucky Fried Hound, in case you have forgotten). I'm always so confused, I thought Maester Aemon was the Mad King's brother. If he was his uncle, he must have been ancient when he died! At least I remember correctly that Jon and Dany are aunt and nephew, not siblings like most of my family always assume.

And why would Lyanna give her son the same freaking name as his older brother, with another woman, who she just illegitimized??

Was the actor who played Reaghar in the flashback the same that played Viserys? I understand they all look alike, but I thought they'd go for someone who looked more manly and, I don't know, regal?

So Jon is the Egg now. Good, who's the Chicken?

[Coxfires]

My streaming quality wasn't that great and I also thought that Harry Lloyd was Rhaegar, but maybe as you said they just all look similar. I wasn't picturing him like that either.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Coxfires

[WhiteStumbler]

15 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

And why would Lyanna give her son the same freaking name as his older brother, with another woman, who she just illegitimized??

THAT is a great freaking question! It seems sooo weird.

15 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

Was the actor who played Reaghar in the flashback the same that played Viserys?

Looked similar, but hard to tell.

15 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

So Jon is the Egg now. Good, who's the Chicken?

Jon is the Egg Man, whoever the Chicken is had better run from The Hound! :-)

[janjan]

18 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

It seems a bit weird that Maekar would name his second son after the founder of their dynasty, but that seems to be what happened.

Ned did something similar. His first son, Robb, was named after Robert, his second Brandon, after his older brother, and his third, Rickon, sort of after Rickard, his father. I think.

I was so sure that was Harry Lloyd playing Rhaegar that I slow-walked through the credits looking for his name. But I didn't see it. Still, his profile, especially his nose, is distinctive. I'm 99% sure that was Harry Lloyd. Good to see him again -- he did a great Viserys.

Louis Armstrong sang about a "Butter and egg man." It means a non-flashy but reliable guy. Like maybe someone who dresses in drab but fights zombies to save humanity.

[DirewolfPup]

I've been trying to rack my brain trying to decide who Sansa should end up with.  As strong and fierce as she is, I don't her staying single for all time. Of course this is all assuming humans win. I've composed a list of eligible bachelors that have a kind heart, which is definitely what she needs.

• Jon-Egg Snow-Targaryan
• Gendry Sand
• Jorah Mormont
• Tyrion Lannister
• Davos Seaworth
• Daario Naharis
• Samwell Tarly : pretty solid with Gilly
• Beric Dondarrion
• Dolorous Edd : sworn to the Night's Watch
• Podrick

Borderline Good People (half good, half bad)

• The Hound
• Jamie Lannister
• Theon Greyjoy : no junk
• Bronn
• Robin Arryn
• Lord Varys : no junk

Out of all the plausible options, my favorites are Gendry or Daario. As for Gendry, Robert did say that he wanted to "join our houses" and marry Ned's daughter to his son. He just didn't realize at the time that his son was a blacksmith not a prince.

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

Gendry Sand

Gendry was born in King's Landing. Fleabottom, to be exact. Sand is the generic name for Dorne-born bastards (Ellaria, Tyene etc- the Sand Snakes) - which is where Jon was born and why Bran said he was not Jon Snow but Jon Sand. (which, if his parents hadn't wed, would be ironic given that he's never even seen sand. I think the "beach" at Hardhome would have been pebbles)

I don't think we know what bastards born in King's Landing are called, but I suggest Gendry's last name should be Cesspit. Gendry Cesspit. Yah. I can see why he went by only his 1st name.  ;-)

[gingerella]

4 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

I've been trying to rack my brain trying to decide who Sansa should end up with.  As strong and fierce as she is, I don't her staying single for all time. Of course this is all assuming humans win. I've composed a list of eligible bachelors that have a kind heart, which is definitely what she needs.

• Jon-Egg Snow-Targaryan HER 1st COUSIN - NOT IMPLAUSIBLE BUT PERHAPS TOO WEIRD SINCE THEY GREW UP AS SIBINGS
• Gendry Sand - SINGLE AND READY TO MINGLE, and cute too BUT...I dont get that Gendry's the sharpest tool in the shed, and Sansa needs someone smart and witty at this point in life...
• Jorah Mormont - TOO OLD & TOO GOOGLY OVER DANY
• Tyrion Lannister _ POSSIBLE, they are an equal match in terms of smarts and snark, the latter of which Sansa has developed over the years, plus he was always respectful to her while they were married. BEST MATCH IMO!
• Davos Seaworth - TOO OLD.
• Daario Naharis - TOO PARTY BOY, I dont think Sansa would fall for looks alone at this point, not after all she's endured.
• Samwell Tarly : pretty solid with Gilly
• Beric Dondarrion - TOO OLD!
• Dolorous Edd : sworn to the Night's Watch
• Podrick _ HMMM, MAGICAL DICK? CHECK! BUT I dont think Podrick's personality meshes with Sansa's...he hasn't shown a good sense of humor, sort of too literal and not funny.

Borderline Good People (half good, half bad)

• The Hound - NO WAY! He may be deserving of love at this point, but not with Sansa.
• Jamie Lannister - NO FUCKING WAY.
• Theon Greyjoy : no junk
• Bronn - SERIOUSLY NO FUCKING WAY.
• Robin Arryn -  ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME, NO FUCKING WAY.
• Lord Varys : no junk - NO, VARYS isn't the marrying kind.

Out of all the plausible options, my favorites are Gendry or Daario. As for Gendry, Robert did say that he wanted to "join our houses" and marry Ned's daughter to his son. He just didn't realize at the time that his son was a blacksmith not a prince.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Beric Dondarrion - TOO OLD!

Not only too old, but he may be dead - for realz this time!

And if he does survive, not only is he old, but he's been DEAD too many times (honey, let me tell you what a horrible day I had... No, your not dead AGAIN! Why does it always have to be about YOU.)

And each time he dies he comes back a little less...(what? I don't know). 

Given his commitment to the Lord of Light? and all the above? there are enough NOs there to last a few more lifetimes should he have them.

[ChocButterfly]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

• Jon-Egg Snow-Targaryan HER 1st COUSIN - NOT IMPLAUSIBLE BUT PERHAPS TOO WEIRD SINCE THEY GREW UP AS SIBLINGS

What?? Hell, nooo,!!! They are siblings for all purposes and intents! People think is creepy he'd do it with his aunt, who he didn't even know recently, but Sansa and him are supposed to be sort of ok because they're not really related? Ewwww!!!!

• Gendry Sand - SINGLE AND READY TO MINGLE, and cute too BUT...I dont get that Gendry's the sharpest tool in the shed, and Sansa needs someone smart and witty at this point in life...

I don't know, I don't think Arya will take it well. Plus, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, she needs to marry someone of her status.

• Jorah Mormont - TOO OLD & TOO GOOGLY OVER DANY.

In addition, why, why would she even look at him?

• Tyrion Lannister _ POSSIBLE, they are an equal match in terms of smarts and snark, the latter of which Sansa has developed over the years, plus he was always respectful to her while they were married. BEST MATCH IMO!

AGREE!!!!!! And they're already kind of married.I

 

• Davos Seaworth - TOO OLD. 

Plus, again, not to be elitist, but Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, she needs to marry someone her status.

• Daario Naharis - TOO PARTY BOY, I dont think Sansa would fall for looks alone at this point, not after all she's endured.

Why is Dario even in this list? He's  in Essos. Unless he's coming with Cersei's band of mercenaries. But again, not her status.

• Samwell Tarly : pretty solid with Gilly
• Beric Dondarrion - TOO OLD!

Also, dude most be dead now.

• Dolorous Edd : sworn to the Night's Watch
• Podrick _ HMMM, MAGICAL DICK? CHECK! BUT I dont think Podrick's personality meshes with Sansa's...he hasn't shown a good sense of humor, sort of too literal and not funny.

Again, not her status. Why would she marry a bad squire. Remember, she needs to think about the future of her House!

 

Borderline Good People (half good, half bad)

• The Hound - NO WAY! He may be deserving of love at this point, but not with Sansa.

No way!!! Plus, status.

• Jamie Lannister - NO FUCKING WAY.
• Theon Greyjoy : no junk
• Bronn - SERIOUSLY NO FUCKING WAY.

See, above.

• Robin Arryn -  ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME, NO FUCKING WAY.

Actually, this one makes sense. They're cousins. You know nobles like to marry their kin. She'd be both Lady of Winterfell and the Eerie. The bannermen there already trust  her. It'd be a strong alliance of important houses. Plus, Robyn would be easy to control. And maybe he'll die soon in a riding accident, so she can rule by herself. Those happen all the time ;)

 

Quote

• Lord Varys : no junk - NO, VARYS isn't the marrying kind.

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by ChocButterfly

[Anothermi]

While I was searching our posts from previous episodes I came across this:

OK, I followed instructions about how to link with posts from other threads. You're going to have to click, I guess, to read the contents, but I'll speculate on it as if you've read it.

We've been speculating that the Night King - created by the CHotF - might have been a Stark. That would be a deliciously complex connection, but given that all the rest of the WW seem to descend from Craster, perhaps the Night King was an ancestor of the Craster Clan. It would make sense that he would seek out members of his clan (I don't think Houses were a "thing" back then). It would also explain his extremely nasty disposition. It also explains the Major Mistake made by the CHotF. They misjudged how much human character influences their actions. A Craster subject would never become an ally. Other First Men? Maybe. But not Casters - if the line is reflected in the one we know.

So that's another wildly flung spitball that I stumbled upon while searching for something that I hope I will remember now that I've got this one out of my system.

[Anothermi]

Finally found what I was looking for:

Quote

Oh. And that sets me off on a Qyburn tangent. I need to know his backstory more in depth than that he was kicked out of the Citadel. Sam could easily be kicked out too. He just performed an operation he was forbidden to perform. We know who Sam is and why he would have a good reason for doing something that would get him kicked out. We know that even the Hound has a backstory that explains his earlier atrocities. What's the story with Qyburn?

This was a post I made back in episode 3: The Queen's Justice.

In my multitudinous selective re-watches, I stumbled upon the fact that Qyburn 1st appeared in episode 2 or 3 (I forget which now) when he was found by Robb!!! of all people when the Stark forces captured the remains of Harrenhal after the Mountain departed. His story has been parceled out sparingly but regularly over the whole series. A Show has been at pains to show Qyburn being fasinated by bringing the dead to life. He seems to have done it with Mountainstein, but this episode made a point of showing his fascination with the still animated severed hand of the zomboni.

I think he is going to have some major part to play in the coming final season. We know he was thrown out of the Citadel by the Maesters but we don't know what for. We know from Maester Lewin that Maesters studied magic, but that all that he knew accomplished nothing. I'm wondering if Qyburn did what no other Maester had done before. Replicated the work of the CHotF? - or was trying to.  I haven't tracked all the Qyburn references since he first appeared, but I know we've seen him in every season, albeit on a low key level, since he was 1st discovered by Robb. I don't think the time spent on him has been incidental. Hence my spitball.

What do the rest of you think?

Edited September 4, 2017 by Anothermi
spelling

[DirewolfPup]

I think you guys got a little too personally invested here. I listed everyone, literally, everyone I could think of that's unmarried and nice. I wasn't eliminating anyone based on personality or likelihood.  It's okay :) It's fun to run through every possibility.

Since we're in discussion mode, I'll add some thoughts.

On 9/2/2017 at 3:08 PM, ChocButterfly said:

Jon-Egg Snow-Targaryan HER 1st COUSIN - NOT IMPLAUSIBLE BUT PERHAPS TOO WEIRD SINCE THEY GREW UP AS SIBLINGS

What?? Hell, nooo,!!! They are siblings for all purposes and intents! People think is creepy he'd do it with his aunt, who he didn't even know recently, but Sansa and him are supposed to be sort of ok because they're not really related? Ewwww!!!!

It was pretty clear that of all the sibling to sibling relationships in Winterfell, Jon-Sansa had the most distant almost non-existent relationship. The way you two describe them, it reminds me of Jon and Arya's relationship more. They were truly brother & sister. Jon and Sansa, not so much. Do you think he's going to stay with Dany after he finds out he's her Nephew? Do you think Dany would feel lovey dovey for the person who will take her throne away from her? If Jon and Dany end up together, that will be such a farce. Who else would he end up with?

Gendry Sand (last name unknown)- SINGLE AND READY TO MINGLE, and cute too BUT...I dont get that Gendry's the sharpest tool in the shed, and Sansa needs someone smart and witty at this point in life...

I don't know, I don't think Arya will take it well. Plus, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, she needs to marry someone of her status.

Arya and Sansa are on good terms now. Arya also doesn't seem interested in marriage and being a "lady" of anything. Gendry is the only living son of Robert Baratheon. There's something poetic about Sansa being wed to Robert's son. Harkens back to Season 1 Episode 1 where Robert and Ned were in the crypt. Robert says something to the tune of "I have a son. You have a daughter. We'll join our houses." He's doesn't have the official title, no. But if Jon ends up in KL (king or married to Dany, gag) then Sansa would want to rule Winterfell herself. If she married a man with no titles, but good parentage, she'd be more likely to retain her ruler status. (this is a guess. I'm not sure about that)

Jorah Mormont - TOO OLD & TOO GOOGLY OVER DANY.

In addition, why, why would she even look at him?

Mormont has the house, the name. Lady Mormont can reinstate his rights to said house after his heroics during battle. I could see it. Yes, he's old, but he's not too old to make a pass at Dany who's maybe 3 years older than Sansa. Also, if Lord of the Rings can make Eowyn forget about her deep love of Aragorn in 5 seconds after glances at Faramir, then anything in movie/TV land is possible. Jorah could fall for Sansa pretty easily. She is pretty gorgeous.

Tyrion Lannister _ POSSIBLE, they are an equal match in terms of smarts and snark, the latter of which Sansa has developed over the years, plus he was always respectful to her while they were married. BEST MATCH IMO!

AGREE!!!!!! And they're already kind of married.I

Sansa and Tyrion didn't talk much during any of their interactions at KL. She also didn't pay him any mind at all. Their wits are a good match, but could you really see Sansa and Tyrion getting their sexy time on? He's old as well (38-40 ish), not that age is a barrier. Everyone else got a "he's too ollllld" comment, so I added that to the mix :) I don't like this match, personally.

Davos Seaworth - TOO OLD. 

Plus, again, not to be elitist, but Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, she needs to marry someone her status.

The hand of the king isn't good enough? I'd imagine he'd get that title if Jon does take the throne. Even if Jon retires to Winterfell, he'd still be his head advisor. Nothing to snub ones nose at.

Daario Naharis - TOO PARTY BOY, I dont think Sansa would fall for looks alone at this point, not after all she's endured.

Why is Dario even in this list? He's  in Essos. Unless he's coming with Cersei's band of mercenaries. But again, not her status.

He's on this list because he's a nice man who is unmarried. It wouldn't be a stretch to get him over to Westeros at all. If a great battle vs the living and dead is at stake, he could be summoned to help or volunteer.

He's proven to not be a party boy at all. Heck, in our first introduction of him (ye blonde version), he talks at length about how he doesn't sleep with whores because he wants women who actually want to be with him. He's like opposite of playboy, unlike Tyrion who basically bathed in whores until lately.

The biggest hurdle here is his lack of title, but that's not a deal breaker.

Samwell Tarly : pretty solid with Gilly

Beric Dondarrion - TOO OLD!

Also, dude most be dead now.

I agree he is almost the lowest in likelihood here. Just didn't want to rule a brother out. (ha. pun)

Dolorous Edd : sworn to the Night's Watch

Podrick _ HMMM, MAGICAL DICK? CHECK! BUT I dont think Podrick's personality meshes with Sansa's...he hasn't shown a good sense of humor, sort of too literal and not funny.

Again, not her status. Why would she marry a bad squire. Remember, she needs to think about the future of her House!

Part of me hopes they don't marry or anything, but have a random tryst. Sansa needs to know what good sex feels like. I don't want Ramsey's influence to put her off sexual relations all together. She deserves better.

 

Borderline Good People (half good, half bad)

The Hound - NO WAY! He may be deserving of love at this point, but not with Sansa.

No way!!! Plus, status.

I agree this is extremely unlikely. But he has a soft spot for her, that's pretty clear.

Jamie Lannister - NO FUCKING WAY.

Eh.... When Cersei ultimately dies.... maybeeee.... He's got the house and the title. Honestly, that would be extremely weird.

Theon Greyjoy : no junk

Bronn - SERIOUSLY NO FUCKING WAY.

See, above.

Why? He wants his castle and a pretty wife. We all love him. He's smart, funny, and an excellent sounding board for strategic advice. He wouldn't be a bad option in this young lady's opinion. Though, yes, I think other people are better options.

Robin Arryn -  ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME, NO FUCKING WAY.

Actually, this one makes sense. They're cousins. You know nobles like to marry their kin. She'd be both Lady of Winterfell and the Eerie. The bannermen there already trust  her. It'd be a strong alliance of important houses. Plus, Robyn would be easy to control. And maybe he'll die soon in a riding accident, so she can rule by herself. Those happen all the time ;)

Thank you, Choc, for getting this. I truly thought this one would get the biggest "no" reaction, but I had the same thoughts you did once I starting considering it. Seeing how terrible at everything that kid is, Sansa would be able to LF him quite easily :)  They were arranged to be married even though they're 1st cousins. (Just like her and Jon are.... ) But still, don't want this to happen at all.

[gingerella]

Brethren of the Spitball Wall...it is time...Winter Has Come, the Great Battle is upon us. What speculations have we for this, our final watch on the Wall of Spitballs?

On 9/4/2017 at 12:47 AM, Anothermi said:

We know from Maester Lewin that Maesters studied magic, but that all that he knew accomplished nothing. I'm wondering if Qyburn did what no other Maester had done before. Replicated the work of the CHotF? - or was trying to. 

This spec from @Anothermi had me thinking...because in the Rubik's Cube thread I mentioned wondering if there were any CotF left and if so, would they somehow come to the aid of the Man and the Living, or would they simply disappear off A Show's canvas for the final season. Woe if they disappeared since they created the evil that approacheth. It would be very interesting indeed if Qyburn managed to do something to replicate a sort of reversal of the CotF spell and thus vanquish all the WWs, wights, zombonis, etc. in one fell swoop. The thing is, he's sequestered away in the dark underbelly of KL, and it's unclear if he would even believe that WWs, the Night King, and the Army of the Dead even exist because he's basically living in Club Med right now (even though I think he saw the eight hand brought to KL, IIRC). But yeah, cool of he could use his magical prowess for saving the world.

On 8/27/2017 at 5:55 PM, Pallas said:

We have a season to go. It will probably get darker before the light. But from what I've seen, this saga is, finally, on the side of the vulnerable, the misbegotten, the humble, the humorous, the ethical, and the brave: those who forgive our frailties and work together, for life.  

@Pallas, your light had lifted me out of my depressed funk at the thought, last season, that it all ends with evil triumphing over good, and I can only hope that you are spot on, but we know we will lose many beloved characters during the next 6 weeks, and I do not relish that.

Characters I CANNOT deal with losing:

Jon Snow: I just can't deal with him dying. Which probably means he will, if A Show is it's usual bitch. We know A Show is a bitch to horses, and to those we adore. Anyway, I think Jon has grown over the series and would be a great leader for whatever is to come. I want him to live.

Sansa: If nothing else, she's survived the unimaginable horrors of both mental torture with Joffrey, and physical and mental torture with Ramsey, of anyone still alive, she DESERVES to live, and to live happily, or as happily as anyone can after enduring what she has.

Arya: Arya has also grown in interesting ways, eshewing the typical female role she was born into, and shifting more into a male role. She is crafty, she is cunning, she is funny.

Tyrion: His character has shown so much growth over A Show, and he is far wiser than either of his siblings, and I think he'd make a good King, or whatever, I'd like to see him live.

Varys: He's sort of the only one who has the Greater Good at the forefront of his moves. He 'serves the realm' and yet he seems to really serve mankind. I would like him to stick around and guide whatever is to come out of the great battle.

Brienne: I'd like to see her live, and be able to say she upheld her oath to Catelin, but I have a bad feeling...I know many of us would like to see her with Tormund but I don't see that happening, he's too rough around the edges for our Lady of Tarth. Perhaps Jaime dies trying to save her in battle? That would be bittersweet.

Sam: Sam needs to live, because he is not like any other Maester at the Citadel. He is a working Maester, as opposed to the stuffy old farts that were there. He needs to overhaul the learning/practical stuff at the Citadel so he needs to survive.

Characters I CAN deal with losing:

Cersei: She can fuck right off any time now and it wouldn't be too soon.

Jamie: Unlike Cersei, he is redeemable, but I think his redemption needs to be a finale, penultimate act of selflessness to save mankind. Maybe that will come with killing Cersei.

Dany: As integral as she's been to A Show, I feel like if it were between her and Jon, I'd be okay with her dying because she always has this little piece of her that seems to be leaning a wee bit too much towards the I AM THE QUEEN, in that batshitcray Targ way. It's always just off to the side. Jon doesn't have that, and that 'Targ' quality seems to be more from being pure Targ, whereas Jon's half Stark. So yeah, I'm okay with losing Dany.

Jorah: I just don't see a way forward where Jorah lives in the end. I think he is destined for a final act of faithfulness to Dany, but it will get him killed as well.

Gendry: Didn't we see him making armor or swords last season in preparation for the battle to come, or am I misremembering that? If so, I can see him playing a strong supporting role, but maybe he's expendable. I'm not that invested in him.

Bran: I sort of think he needs to live to carry on the TER's knowledge but maybe he dies taking with him all the evil in the world so the TER isn't needed anymore, in which case I can live with him dying.

There are so many more but I'll have to come back and finish this list later. Anyone care to carry it forward?

Edited April 14, 2019 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

I almost want to make a Live/Dead pool for all of our main named characters. Whoever guesses the most right, wins! Extra points for guessing who ends up on the Iron Throne.

Edited April 11, 2019 by DirewolfPup

[DirewolfPup]

I'll submit mine. Just so I can look like a complete dolt at the end of this. By the end of the series, who will survive and who will end up as Dragon Chow?

LIVES or DIES!

Arya : Lives. Tentatively. I could see this going either way. Assassins make for boring warriors when fighting the dead. Assassins are better when there's political espionage going on. I hope she finishes her list at least.

Bran : Dies. No use for a root god after this is over, no matter how it ends. Also, makes tying up the who-out-ranks-who portion of the Stark family a bit easier.

Brienne : Dies. Could be fighting Jamie, protecting Sansa, etc. I don't see much plot usefulness for her moving forward, so I don't see her living unfortunately.

Cersei : Dies. Has to, right? Right....? RIGHT!?!?

Daario : Lives. As long as he stays in Meereen, he should survive this.

Dany : Lives. She has loyal protectors and dragons. Good luck trying to kill her. Plus, she has to bear the inevitable baby that she and Jon create. ugh.

Davos : Lives. My friend has a theory that he gets the throne. That would be interesting.

Euron Greyjoy : Dies. and good riddance.

Gendry : Lives. I'm still shipping him and Sansa.

Gilly : Lives. Raise that incest baby, girl.

Grey Worm : Dies. He's a warrior. Never seen snow. Dead. Deader. Deadest.

Hound, The : Dies. I hope heroically. I genuinely have no idea what he's going to do next.

Jamie : Dies. Tentatively. Another I could see going either way. He's good at killing kings, so here's hoping he kills Cersei even though she's "pregnant." I still have my doubts about that.

Jon Snow : Lives. Why not. Go on living mr half dead already King oh da norf.

Jorah : Dies. Seems like a waste after the whole surviving greyscale bit. Maybe I'm wrong.

Melissandre : Dies. Totally dead. If its the will of the Lord of Light, have her eaten by dragons. Please, and thank you.

Messandi : Lives. <shrug>

Mountainstein : Lives.. just kidding he dies.

Qyburn : Lives. I guess.

Sam : Lives. Maestering the way a maester does. As the Maester in the Citadel said, wars go on. Kings are killed right and left. Maesters remain.

Sansa : Lives. She's too cunning and interesting to kill off now. Long live Sansa!

Theon / Reek : Dies.

Tyrion : Lives. Would be quite the twist otherwise.

Vary : Lives. He's a survivor. For the realm!

Yara : Dies. Not sure what she can do from prison.

Edited April 12, 2019 by DirewolfPup
forgot Sam & Gilly!

[DirewolfPup]

On 9/1/2017 at 5:56 PM, Anothermi said:

I don't think we know what bastards born in King's Landing are called, but I suggest Gendry's last name should be Cesspit. Gendry Cesspit. Yah. I can see why he went by only his 1st name.  😉

hahahahaha. I don't know how I missed this before. Hilarious.

On 9/4/2017 at 3:47 AM, Anothermi said:

In my multitudinous selective re-watches, I stumbled upon the fact that Qyburn 1st appeared in episode 2 or 3 (I forget which now) when he was found by Robb!!! of all people when the Stark forces captured the remains of Harrenhal after the Mountain departed. His story has been parceled out sparingly but regularly over the whole series. A Show has been at pains to show Qyburn being fasinated by bringing the dead to life. He seems to have done it with Mountainstein, but this episode made a point of showing his fascination with the still animated severed hand of the zomboni.

What an odd turn of events. Qyburn was almost murdered by The Mountain and his group, but then spends Season 5 working to revive him.

[WhiteStumbler]

Baby Sam for the Iron Throne!

[gingerella]

I've been trying to imagine what scenarios could possibly exist for the end of A Show...

1. THE RINSE & REPEAT

Dany makes her way to the Iron Throne but she's already showing signs of her father and everyone can see a Mad Queen approaching. Tyrion takes her out to save Westeros, and becomes the Queenslayer (Jaime has bit the bullet killing Cersei), they put Gendry (as a Baratheon, bastard notwithstanding) or Jon on the throne and things go on like they always have. This would sort of suck because it nullifies the quests and battles that everyone has endured during A Show's tenure.

2. LADIES NIGHT

Either Dany or Sansa wind up as Queen on the Iron Throne. I'd rather have Sansa because she has her Stark humanity gene pool to draw from, plus she can probably spot a bullshitter from a mile away with her her experience with Joffrey, LF, Ramsey et al. I don't think we've ever heard of a Queen on the Iron Throne, have we? It's always been men, perhaps this shifts now? But other than that things go on as usual.

3. THE SUN WILL COME OUT...TOMORROW, err IN A THOUSAND YEARS...

The Living win, somehow, but Winter is Still Here, and mankind will have to weather the Winter until the next cycle of Summer Comes. So we end with the Living hunkering down for the remainder of the Long Night. Sort of a sucky ending if you ask me. Not much resolution.

4. THE SUN WILL COME OUT...TOMORROW!

The Living win, and somehow a spell has been broken and Winter/The Long Night ends over night, it turns out that Magic is what brought Winter and the Long Night, not weather patterns as was previously assumed, so when the spell is broken, there is no more Long Winter...maybe a crisp Fall, but not like it's been. The Iron Throne is dismantled and an entirely new form of society is created by the remaining characters, one that breaks the Iron Throne as a seat of power, and is more people-powered and just. I know, dream on Gingerella...but A Viewer can dream, right?

5. FOLLOW THE YELLOW BRICK ROAD...

Bran wakes up and we see that A Show has been but a long dream/nightmare that Bran has had after Old Nan has told him her tales of the WWs riding their pale spiders as big as horses...If this is the ending, or something like this, A Viewer will be hella pissed. 

ETA: I just re read our thoughts on the re watch of S1E01 and what hit me was that everyone seemed more or less ‘happy’. We haven’t seen anyone really happy for a very long time, have we? It makes me wonder if we will see anyone happy before A Show ends it’s story...

Edited April 14, 2019 by gingerella

[Pallas]

"In the (series finale of) Game of Thrones, you win or you die."  Probably Cersei's most famous quote, and one that succinctly conveys the latter-day Lannister code. Cersei believes that winning is life. I believe this saga tells us that life is not a prize but a purpose: its own. 

So here's my season 8 Spitball bracket. On the third Sunday in May, who will still be able to say, "Not today"?

1) It is Known.

• Podrick, squire and learner. He serves but cannot be bought. 
• Ser Davos. Likewise.
• Gendry, the king's son who pursued a useful trade. 
• Lady Stark of Winterfell. Because there must always...
• Jon Snow-No-More: King of the North and Dragon (?) of House Targaryn.
• Tyrion Lannister, last of his name. Stories come to an end; creators' avatars endure. 
• Both fucking dragons, or so help me. 

2) Looking Good, But Then Again.

• Daenerys Stormborn: breaker of chains, mother of dragons,  ruler of lords: is she as visionary a leader as she is a disrupter? In the world she brings into being, is there a role for her?  
• Arya Stark: the wolf. Can she really come home? Does Sansa need a master-at-arms in the form of her sister, and is Arya a leader of men?  Perhaps she and Gendry could unite forces, though he doesn't seem too keen on the North. 
• Brandon Stark: who needs little birds when you've got a Three-Eyed Raven? The man who can see anywhere in the present or the past would be invaluable to the right ruler, but he's no one's to command. And it's been years (in Show time) since a Stark died honorably and horribly.

3) Too Close to Call.

• Samwell Tarly: wizard and former scullery maid of the Night's Watch. As much salt-of-the-earth as there's dragonglass at Dragonstone, but does he want to head House Tarly or reinvent the Citadel? He may be sacrificed to make Jon sad.
• Sansor Clegane: may survive his much-anticipated grudge match with his brother, but his redemption could have peaked too soon. On the other hand, a great foil for Tyrion, and a way for the Lannister/Clegane legacy to take a sharp turn.
• Brienne of Tarth: as good and rough as Ned, only taller and with shorter hair. And a better Master-at-Arms than Arya for Lady Stark. Jaime may die saving her, or, fail her and mourn her before he kills Cersei.
• Varys: did he serve too many too well for too long? Is it enough for him to be for the realm and the common man, but not any individuals? When does he die in this strange land, as Melissandre foretold? 
• Bronn: accepting a title from Tywin may have ruined him; switching sides one last time would be shrewd.
• Yara: it would be just like Theon to die saving her, but even more like Theon to die almost saving her.

4) Dead is Dead.

• And not a moment too soon, mother of Joffrey. Killed by Jaime -- or by Arya, after Cersei kills Jaime. 
• Jaime. The things he does for love. Suicide after regicide, or suicide by sister. 
• Jorah. Maybe keep an eye on Jorah.
• Theon. For Yara.
• The Mountain and Qyborn: one by a Hound and one by a dragon. 
• The Iron Throne: melted down by dragonfire.

[WhiteStumbler]

Not really speculation, but I have been thinking about the similarities between Cersei and Dany...

Both lost their mothers at a young age.

Both lost their fathers violently, and he was killed by someone close.

Both had troubled relationships with a brother.

Both wanted and /or allowed another to try to kill that brother.

Both were married off to  powerful leaders without regard to their wishes.

Both leaned on their status of mother of someone / something.

Both of their most potent guardians came to life in unconventional ways.

Both of their lives have been shaped by a witch's prophecy.

Both have extricated themselves from extremely difficult situations by burning their enemies alive in a culturally significant structure.

Both have imprisoned people who cross them, dooming those people to a horrible fate.

Both claim that they will rain down ruin on their enemies and take what is theirs.

Any other areas where their circles overlap in a Venn diagram?

[Anothermi]

8 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Both lost their fathers violently, and he was killed by someone close.

Add to this that the someone close was a Lannister - and not the same one. (But on some level for similar reasons)

[DirewolfPup]

12 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Any other areas where their circles overlap in a Venn diagram?

They both prefer sleeping with their relatives.