Lady S. July 9, 2016 Share July 9, 2016 3 hours ago, Jazzy24 said: To the bolded that's not true. The South is defiantly less tolerable of other religions than the North. The only reason there isn't more worshippers of the Seven in the North is because the Starks and their bannermen repelled every Andal invasion. The Starks even let the Manderlys keep their gods when they gave them land. While there have been instances of a king like Baelor the blessed who probably would have started a religious war with the North and Iron Islands because they didn't worship the faith. One instance and there was no evidence of any widespread support for that. The prevalence of godswoods in the South doesn't mean there are more old gods followers per capita in the lower Six than there are people with Manderly blood in the North. Harrenhal and the Red Keep were built after the Andal invasions, and even the Eyrie would have a heart tree were it not for the inhospitable terrain. The Manderlys have probably intermarried with all the other notable northern families over the centuries so why shouldn't those marriages have been inter-faith the way Ned/Cat's was, complete with septs for the formerly Manderly wives? Why shouldn't there have been a sept at Winterfell before Catelyn's time? Tyrion told the High Septon that the Seven were in danger because Stannis burned the godswood at Storm's End, completely unaware that Stannis had already burned the Seven on Dragonstone. Can you imagine if someone told a Pope that an attack on some druid holy site was also an attack on Jesus? Sansa Stark, an abused prisoner of war, was always allowed freedom of worship. If Joff actually was a swell prince and they had married as Robert intended, theirs could have been an inter-faith marriage like her parents'. If the High Septon and the royal family don't care about the old gods, I'd say they're pretty mainstream. A quick search of the phrase gods old and new reveals that Robert and even Dany swore by both sets of gods, and Brienne swore by both in her KG oath to Renly, I'd say that's further evidence that the South has progressed a great deal from the initial Andal invasions. It is the North that is still stuck in that mindset thousands of years later. Link to comment
Jazzy24 July 9, 2016 Share July 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Lady S. said: One instance and there was no evidence of any widespread support for that. The prevalence of godswoods in the South doesn't mean there are more old gods followers per capita in the lower Six than there are people with Manderly blood in the North. Harrenhal and the Red Keep were built after the Andal invasions, and even the Eyrie would have a heart tree were it not for the inhospitable terrain. The Manderlys have probably intermarried with all the other notable northern families over the centuries so why shouldn't those marriages have been inter-faith the way Ned/Cat's was, complete with septs for the formerly Manderly wives? Why shouldn't there have been a sept at Winterfell before Catelyn's time? Tyrion told the High Septon that the Seven were in danger because Stannis burned the godswood at Storm's End, completely unaware that Stannis had already burned the Seven on Dragonstone. Can you imagine if someone told a Pope that an attack on some druid holy site was also an attack on Jesus? Sansa Stark, an abused prisoner of war, was always allowed freedom of worship. If Joff actually was a swell prince and they had married as Robert intended, theirs could have been an inter-faith marriage like her parents'. If the High Septon and the royal family don't care about the old gods, I'd say they're pretty mainstream. A quick search of the phrase gods old and new reveals that Robert and even Dany swore by both sets of gods, and Brienne swore by both in her KG oath to Renly, I'd say that's further evidence that the South has progressed a great deal from the initial Andal invasions. It is the North that is still stuck in that mindset thousands of years later. How many Manderly women have been Lady Stark of the North if you don't mind my asking? Those same women could have worshipped the old gods. Plus the Starks married Blackwoods(they worship the old gods)and Royces who might worship the old gods and other Stark bannermen who worship the old gods, that's probably why no sept was in Winterfell before Catelyn's time. Just because the majority of the North is still strong in their worship of the old gods doesn't mean that they don't tolerate the Seven or any other gods that someone wants to worship. The reasons that the main castles in the south have godswoods is because of show, not tolerance of religion or anything. The Andals actually cut and burned down many heart trees south of the Neck using the wood for decorations. The Blackwoods is the only house south that we know of that worships the old gods. Davos, Brienne, Dany, and even Robert know shit about the old gods they swore because it's a saying to make their vows or whatever they're saying sound more sincere. I bet that the Northerners know more about the seven and their gods than any Southerner knows about the old gods. Link to comment
Avaleigh July 10, 2016 Share July 10, 2016 (edited) Tyrion III Tyrion is attending a small council meeting and reflects on how much the Game has changed since he's been away recovering. He thinks the lords present are uncomfortable looking at his disfigured face but acknowledges that they've been reasonably courteous to him, with both Mace Tyrell and Paxter Redwyne complimenting Tyrion on the success of his chain. Kevan is especially warm when he greets Tyrion and tells his nephew that Lancel spoke of how brave he was during the battle. Tyrion asks about Lancel's health and Kevan basically says that it's still touch and go. Kevan mentions that Cersei visits Lancel often and prays for him. Tyrion is unsure if his sister is praying for Lancel to live or die. Tyrion thinks about how most people would never expect Cersei to be capable of such ruthlessness. She flirts with Mace, compliments Paxter, jokes and smiles with Mathis, and says a few pious words to the High Septon. When Tywin sits down Cersei asks if they'll start by discussing the wedding, but Tywin says that discussion of the war is first on the agenda. Varys has good news for the small council and says that Lord Tarly has defeated the northmen at Duskendale. Ser Helman Tallhart is dead and Robett Glover is leading the survivors back to Harrenhal only to have to deal with Ser Gregor being on the path as they flee. Redwyne comments on what a victory this is for Joffrey and Tyrion has to basically has to refrain from rolling his eyes. Littlefinger says this is a defeat for the north but points out that Robb is still undefeated in the field. Rowan asks about Robb's plans and movements, and Tywin says that Robb has returned to Riverrun and has abandoned all of the castles that he seized in the west. Tywin says that Ser Daven Lannister will meet up with Ser Forley Prester and when Robb makes for Moat Cailin, Daven and Forley will take their men and swoop down on Riverrun. Rowan asks if it's certain that Robb will head for Moat Cailin, pointing out that the ironmen are still there. Mace says that if he were in Robb's position, he would join back up with Roose and throw all of their strength against Moat Cailin in order to take it back. Tyrion has to bite his tongue after Mace says this and thinks about Mace's not so impressive history when it comes military matters. Kevan mentions that Balon Greyjoy has written offering terms for an alliance and Cersei snaps that Balon ought to be offering fealty. She asks by what right Balon calls himself a king and Tywin explains that it's by the right of conquest. He says with the ironmen holding onto the Neck, Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore, that Balon's longships are well placed to launch an attack on Lannisport and even Highgarden if they're sufficiently provoked. Balon wants his kingship to be recognized and wants to lay claim to everything north of the Neck. Redwyne doesn't think this is asking too much and Mace Tyrell agrees. Tywin wonders about the wild card of Lysa Arryn and the Vale, and Mace cheerfully opines that women have no stomach for war. Redwyne seems to agree pointing out that Lysa has kept herself out of the fighting so far and hasn't committed any 'overt acts of treason'. Tyrion brings up the little incident where he was thrown into a sky cell and asks the council for the men to deal with Lysa Arryn. He thinks to himself that there's nothing that would give him greater pleasure, save strangling Cersei. He also thinks about how his imprisonment in the Eyrie still gives him nightmares that make him wake up in a cold sweat. Mace gives Tyrion a contemptuous smile and tells Tyrion to leave the fighting to the fighters. Tyrion bristles and seems like he's ready to get in Mace's face, but Tywin says that he has other tasks in mind for Tyrion and thinks that Littlefinger might be their key to dealing with Lysa. Littlefinger jokes that the key to winning Lysa is between his legs and asks for the consent to go to the Vale so that he can woo and marry her. Rowan seems skeptical that Lysa will want Littlefinger and Littlefinger makes it clear that he's had sex with Lysa on more than one occasion. He says that once upon a time it would have been unthinkable for them to wed, but now that he's had his title upgraded and is Lord of Harrenhal, a match between them shouldn't be a problem. Tyrion notices Mace and Paxter exchange a look after Littlefinger says this. Rowan grudgingly admits that this should work provided that Littlefinger will be able to keep Lysa loyal to Joffrey. Littlefinger promises to keep Robert Arryn loyal as well. Tyrion watches Littlefinger and thinks about what bullshit it is that the title Lord of Harrenhal is some empty honor. The title has made this proposed union with Lysa possible and Littlefinger would have known that all along. Kevan thinks that they should allow Littlefinger to see what he can accomplish in the Vale and Tyrion soon sees that it'll be up to him to object to this plan. He asks how the crown will pay its debts without Littlefinger to take care of things and is informed that he'll be taking over as master of coin. Tywin says that if Littlefinger is successful then he'll allow Robert Arryn to be the Warden of the East as a gesture of good faith. Littlefinger says that he'll leave the next day even though it will mean missing the big wedding. Redwyne goes back to discussing the potential alliance with House Greyjoy and likes the idea of having Balon's longships to augment his own fleet. He thinks if they team up they can head over to Dragonstone and put an end to Stannis once and for all. Tywin says that Balon's longships are occupied at present and points out that Balon is already fighting their enemies for them without having solidified an alliance first, so there's really no need for them make a deal that requires them to give up half of the kingdom. He thinks the best course of action is to wait and see if a better opportunity presents itself further down the road. Tyrion watches Tywin and realizes that there's something he's not saying. The discussion moves on to the wedding and they go over the preparations for the ceremony and feast. Pycelle mentions that in addition to the other guests they'll also be hosting three hundred Dornishmen who are riding towards the capital as they speak. Mace is annoyed to hear this and points out that the Dornishmen haven't been granted leave to travel through his lands. Tyrion thinks about the ongoing rivalry between Houses Martell and Tyrell and how it was made worse after the Red Viper crippled the heir of Highgarden during a tourney. Tyrion is curious to see how his father will handle such a tricky situation. Tywin says that Prince Doran is coming at Tyrion's invitation and says that he'll be claiming a seat on the small council in addition to getting the justice that was denied to the Martell family for Elia's murder. Tyrion looks at each of the lords of the Reach and wonders if any of them will have the nerve to bring up Tywin's role in Elia's death. Not one of the lords says a word, but they all have notable expressions on their faces. Paxter doesn't really care, but Mathis just threw up in his mouth a little. Kevan says that once Margaery and Joffrey are married, and Myrcella and Trystane are wed, that they'll all be one big power house so they'd better get used to it. Cersei says they should easily be able to accommodate the extra Dornishmen. Tywin says it's time for them to do something pleasant and divide up the fruits of their victory. They spend time handing out castles, land, wardships, and there are plenty to go around. The Tyrells get the biggest piece of the pie and Mace's son Garlan is given Brightwater Keep which formerly belonged to Alester Florent. Lands are also set aside for houses Rowan, Tarly, Oakheart, Hightower, and others. Redwyne asks for thirty years of remission of taxes for the Arbor's finest vintages. They go over more business. The crown of the previous High Septon was broken up and melted down by the people who took it, so Cersei is tasked with having the goldsmiths make another one. Tywin wants the new High Septon crowned at Joffrey's wedding. Varys reports that a real kraken has been seen off the coast of the Fingers. There is also a report of a three headed dragon hatching in Qarth. Tywin says that he isn't interested in krakens or dragons. Tywin asks about Tyrek and Varys says that the poor boy seems to have vanished. Kevan asks what should be done about the returning gold cloaks who deserted during the battle, and Cersei says that she wants them put to death. Varys suggests allowing the men to join the Night's Watch and talks about the messages they've had from the Wall indicating that the wildlings are becoming more of a problem. Tywin want the deserters to serve as a lesson to others and orders the knees of the men to be broken. He thinks people will get the message when they see the men begging in the streets of King's Landing. Tyrion remembers his visit to the Wall and suggests that they break the knees of a few men and send the rest to the severely undermanned Night's Watch. Tywin says if the wildlings invade then that will just be another enemy keeping the northerners and ironmen occupied. Since neither group wants to be subject to the Iron Throne, he asks why the Iron Throne should assist them with the wildling issue. He even suggests that Mance Rayder might be a useful ally somewhere down the road. Once the meeting is over, Tywin wants to have a few words with his children and Kevan. Once everyone else is gone, Tyrion asks whose idea it was to make him master of coin. Tywin confirms that it was Littlefinger's idea and Tyrion says that he fears some sort of trap. He says they shouldn't trust Littlefinger and says that he's a dangerous liar. Cersei and Tyrion bicker a little after this, and this makes Tywin slam his hand down on the table and insists that his children conduct themselves as Lannisters. Kevan feels that Littlefinger is a better option than any of Lysa's other suitors and says that Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, and Horton Redfort are all dangerous and proud men in their own way. Kevan also feels that Littlefinger has demonstrated his loyalty and brings up the fact that Littlefinger only just brought them word of a plan that the Tyrells were hatching to wed Sansa to the heir of Highgarden. Tywin doesn't want Sansa and Willas to marry and says they'll need to come up with their own plan to keep this from happening. Tywin informs Cersei that she'll have to marry again and she reacts as though she's just been slapped. She says she won't marry again and reminds the room that she's the Queen Regent. Tywin tells Cersei that she's his daughter and she'll do as he commands. Cersei stands and says that she refuses to listen, and Tywin tells her that if she doesn't stay then she won't have any say in who her next husband will be. Cersei sits back down and Tywin emphasizes that she needs to have more children to prove what a liar Stannis is about the incest. Tywin thinks it might be good if she marries Balon and Cersei starts quietly repeating the word 'no'. Tyrion can't completely suppress his smile and is super happy at the thought of packing his sister off to Pyke. Tywin suggests Oberyn as a possibility but doesn't think that the Tyrells would care for that very much. He's also considered one of the Redwyne twins, Theon, and Quentyn, but seems to prefer the idea of marrying Cersei to Willas. He tells Cersei that Willas seems like the best choice but is willing to listen to her reasons if she prefers to marry another. Cersei tells Tywin that he's given her a difficult choice and asks for his leave to go so that she might consider. Tyrion thinks to himself that since Cersei is queen, Tywin should be begging leave of her. Tywin tells her to go and says that they can discuss it again once she's composed herself. He tells her to remember her duty. Tyrion thinks that Cersei will do whatever Tywin wants her to do in the end but isn't sure that Jaime will be as willing to play along. Tywin tells Tyrion that his whoring around is a weakness but acknowledges that some of the blame might be his. He says it's past time Tyrion married and Tyrion quickly understands that his father wants him to marry Sansa. Tyrion says that Sansa lucked out in not having to marry Joffrey after having been so horribly mistreated by him, so he can't imagine that she'll be thrilled at the prospect of marrying a disfigured dwarf. He tells Tywin that he's being cruel to Sansa even by his standards. Tyrion wonders why marrying Balon's daughter isn't an option and asks why they specifically need Sansa if they want the North. Quote Lord Tywin steepled his fingers beneath his chin. "Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a belly fully of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors." Tyrion suggests returning Sansa to Catelyn and says this could persuade Robb to bend the knee. Tywin isn't going for it though and insists that Sansa must marry a Lannister. Kevan points out that any man who marries Sansa could potentially have a claim to Winterfell. Tywin says that if Tyrion doesn't marry Sansa then she'll end up being forced to marry one of Tyrion's cousins. He tells Tyrion that he's made offers in the past to other prominent houses to marry one of their daughters to Tyrion but has been rejected every time. He says that if Tyrion isn't willing to marry Sansa, maybe a bride like Lollys will be more to his liking. Tyrion says that he would prefer to have a wife who wants him in her bed and Tywin tells Tyrion that he's a fool if he believes that any of the prostitutes he goes to bed with actually want to share a bed with him. Tywin tells Tyrion that he's disappointed in him and says he thought this union would actually please Tyrion. Tywin repeats that Tyrion will never have Casterly Rock but says that if he plays his cards right that he just might get Winterfell. Tyrion brings up the fact that Robb is alive and will likely father his own children with some daughter of House Frey. Tywin says that he wasn't comfortable sharing this news with the small council and tells Tyrion and Kevan that Robb has married Jeyne Westerling. Tyrion can't believe his ears when he learns that Robb broke his vow. Kevan mentions that Jeyne's father once offered her hand to either Willem or Martyn but Kevan refused and talks about how Jeyne's mother comes from lowborn stock. Tyrion says he thought Robb had better sense and doesn't really see the honor in his choice. Kevan says that Robb chose Jeyne's honor over his own. Tywin says that Jeyne is her mother's daughter just as Robb is his father's son. Tyrion notes that Tywin doesn't seem enraged as Tyrion would expect and thinks about how ruthless Tywin has been in the past when it comes to disloyalty in his vassals. Tywin says that the Westerlings are very much aware of what happened to the Reynes of Castamere. Tyrion wonders if the Westerlings could really be so foolish as to think that Robb will defeat the Lannisters. Quote Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said, and then, "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon." Edited July 11, 2016 by Avaleigh 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 I have to say that I rolled my eyes at Tyrion wishing that Mace and Paxter would tell the singers and the common people to praise his idea for the chain. Tyrion is bitter that he isn't getting enough recognition yet both of these guys congratulate him and tell him it was a good idea. They do give him credit. Multiple people actually give Tyrion credit but it isn't enough for him. He wants to be celebrated and it makes him seem a little petty to me. It's funny that Mace sees that it isn't a good idea to send Tyrion with some men to attack the Eyrie yet he thinks that if he were in the position he'd throw all of Robb's army against Moat Cailin to try to take it, as if that wouldn't be equally or even more disastrous. I know there's doubt but Tywin's behavior definitely makes me think that he already seems convinced of where Sybell's true loyalties are. That creepy ass near smile? What's he smiling about if it isn't feeling like a sure thing to him? He already seems confident that Robb won't father a child. Also, the line about how Jeyne is her mother's daughter--to me that suggests that there's something duplicitous about Jeyne. I also think of Jeyne being scared of Grey Wind, the hints that Grey Wind doesn't like her family specifically her uncle and mother, her being frightened as Robb's men killed people she'd known her whole life while they take over her home--it isn't that hard for me to believe that her mom convinced her to play a bigger game. Interesting that Kevan turned the Westerlings down to bring Jeyne into his own family. That's a detail I don't remember. I wonder if Tywin would have considered Daven for Sansa if Daven had been in King's Landing. My question is, why does a Cersei/Balon union work for Tywin but not an Asha/Tyrion one? I get that Asha/Tyrion doesn't secure the North at all but just to get Balon's ships which is the main thing they want, wouldn't this work just as well as Balon/Cersei? Or is the idea to keep Cersei a queen? An Asha/Tyrion union would last a lot longer and there's a better chance for children. Is it odd that Tyrion doesn't have any bastard children? I never really thought about it until Tywin asks him if he thinks he's capable. If Cersei had opted for a Martell at least she would have Myrcella with her. Not that the Martells would go for it. I laughed when Tywin told Tyrion that he's a fool if he thinks that the women he pays for sex actually want him in their beds. Tyrion really is shockingly deluded about Shae. She's the first thing he thinks about when he considers the downside of marrying Sansa. I guess nobody has any idea what happened to Theon if Tywin is still considering him. When does word start to trickle out about his whereabouts? I liked that story about House Farman snapping back in line after Tywin sent that lute player to sing the Rains of Castamere. I'm imagining the looks on their faces and the shocked silence that likely followed. Tywin certainly knew how to play Tyrion by threatening to force Lollys on him. Sad that Tyrion is rejected over and over in life. Houses Martell, Hightower, Tully, etc. all gave him the brush off when a union was proposed. I bet Hoster was pissed when he heard about Jaime joining the Kingsguard. I guess Tywin had no interest in having Tyrion marry one of the daughters of his bannermen. They'd certainly have a tough time refusing. I wonder if the Manderlys would have been receptive to a marriage with Tyrion back whenever Tywin was first hunting around for a bride for him. Obviously it wouldn't work now, but they strike me as not being as prejudiced for some reason. Maybe I got that impression because Bran thought of Manderly as the only lord who treated him like a normal person and didn't so obviously pity him and feel uncomfortable around him the way that the other lords did. 1 Link to comment
benteen July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 (edited) This was a great chapter and highly entertaining. Quote Tyrion thinks about how most people would never expect Cersei to be capable of such ruthlessness. She flirts with Mace, compliments Paxter, jokes and smiles with Mathis, and says a few pious words to the High Septon. Flirting, joking around and saying pious words? Are you sure this is Cersei we're talking about? ;) I like that Kevan warmly acknowledges what Tyrion did. It's interesting that Tyrion always feels like his entire family hates him but based on his own words and recollections, it seems like his uncles treated him rather well. Jaime loved him and I got the impression Tommen and Myrcella loved him too. Tyrion could care less that Joffrey hates him though I can imagine the viciousness of his relationships with Tywin and Cersei do hang heavily on it and bother him. But Tyrion does have/had family members who actually love him and respect him. Tyrion overdoes it a little and you brought up a great point that being acknowledged by Mace, Paxter and Kevan isn't enough for him. He wants everyone to love him. Sad in its own way. I did feel bad too when Tyrion learned all of the Houses that turned down a marriage with him. In the book, he's not only a dwarf (which is constantly held against him) but very ugly and somewhat deformed. Peter Dinklage is actually a good-looking guy and on the show I assume its strictly because he's a dwarf that he's turned down so much. Quote Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. That is a great piece of writing. And of course, the Night's Watch gets the short end of the stick again. Edited July 11, 2016 by benteen 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 27 minutes ago, benteen said: Flirting, joking around and saying pious words? Are you sure this is Cersei we're talking about? ;) One of the reasons I included that was because it's another scene that shows that she isn't as obvious about her bitchiness on the surface in the first three books. She does a much better job of playing the game and being phony and isn't as open about her true nature as she is in the show. She goes through the motions and often does what's expected of her. Even in the fourth book that fake mask is on a lot. Ned, Sansa, Tyrion, and Jaime all acknowledge this side of her personality but it's mostly absent in the show. I also liked Littlefinger being all mockingly indignant over the Bloody Mummers taking over Harrenhal. The idea of him writing a 'stern letter' to Robb made me laugh. Regarding the Night's Watch, Varys and Tyrion tried at least. Interesting that Mance Rayder is on Tywin's radar and that he doesn't see making an alliance with the wildlings as something that would be completely out of the question. Not that I think that he'd treat them well but the idea of wildlings invading his grandson's kingdom doesn't seem like it strikes him as a big deal. I wonder if the idea is that he just doesn't see these people ever heading south of the Neck. Also interesting is that he has no interest in rumors of dragons or krakens. Varys has a way of telling it so that these do indeed sound like tall tales. I wonder if that kraken will ever appear again? 1 Link to comment
benteen July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 I thought the kraken rumor was interesting too. If it's just a rumor, then perhaps it's an indication that Euron has returned. It is interesting how Tywin doesn't seem bothered by the Wildlings or Balon. He certainly has no issues with allowing "savages" to ravage his enemies countryside and he seems confidant that winter will do them in. He seems content with leaving the North a mess. No doubt having Tyrion clean that up would probably please him. Tywin does seem to suspect that Littlefinger is playing a game but doesn't seem to do anything about that. LOL about writing Robb a stern letter. Good for Garlan getting his own Lordship. I like the character. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 (edited) Gods, Littlefinger is so gross. I know a lot of the other characters' objections to him start with his relatively low birth among highborns but he really doesn't help himself any by being such an obvious climber and bragging about nailing Lysa Arryn. Still, it's interesting that Tyrion realizes trusting him to hold the Eyrie for the crown is a really bad idea while Tywin and Kevan are either putting on a good show or are only slightly less clueless than Ned was on that front. I love that you can see all the groundwork being laid for the red wedding in this chapter if you know to look for it. And while I've never been fully convinced that the Westerlings had some master plot ahead of time with Tywin, the fact that Tywin is so nonchalant about the same sort of betrayal he's famous for burning into the ground does give me pause. My hunch remains that Sybell Westerling was trying to cut a deal to save herself and her kids once the novelty of marrying the king of the North wore off and the reality of Robb's failing alliance and what Tywin might do to them set in. Tywin's indifference to the possibility of wildling invasion if they don't shore up the Nights Watch makes a certain amount of sense from his standpoint and also demonstrates again how little anyone in the south is taking threats from the North seriously. I am sort of amused by his thought that there's no point in giving away half the kingdoms to Balon for something he's doing anyway and until he proves that he can actually hold what he's conquered. The entire Ironborn invasion is just so completely half assed that they can see it all the way down in Kings Landing. As awful as she is, I find myself having a small pang of sympathy for Cersei when Tywin's so blithely talking about marrying her off again. Of course she understands that this is her primary value to him, which has always been the source of so much of her anger. Marrying her off also gets her out of Kings Landing where she can't so readily be a bad influence on Joffrey or have easy access to Jaime if and when he comes back, and you know she realizes that. I'm with Tyrion in contemplating what Jaime's reaction would have been had he returned to find her gone as a bride to Highgarden. He's probably right that the pre-Riverlands trek pre losing a hand Jaime would have put a sword through Willas Tyrell, I don't know if he would have doubled down on the whole star crossed lovers thing if she was suddenly gone with no chance for him to gradually become disillusioned with her on his own as he actually does or what. The line "He could think of nothing he would enjoy more, except perhaps strangling Cersei" got my attention, especially in light of all the raging debate after the season finale about who will end up being Cersei's valonqar. Edited July 11, 2016 by nodorothyparker 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said: Gods, Littlefinger is so gross. I know a lot of the other characters' objections to him start with his relatively low birth among highborns but he really doesn't help himself any by being such an obvious climber and bragging about nailing Lysa Arryn. Still, it's interesting that Tyrion realizes trusting him to hold the Eyrie for the crown is a really bad idea while Tywin and Kevan are either putting on a good show or are only slightly less clueless than Ned was on that front. I love that you can see all the groundwork being laid for the red wedding in this chapter if you know to look for it. And while I've never been fully convinced that the Westerlings had some master plot ahead of time with Tywin, the fact that Tywin is so nonchalant about the same sort of betrayal he's famous for burning into the ground does give me pause. My hunch remains that Sybell Westerling was trying to cut a deal to save herself and her kids once the novelty of marrying the king of the North wore off and the reality of Robb's failing alliance and what Tywin might do to them set in. Tywin's indifference to the possibility of wildling invasion if they don't shore up the Nights Watch makes a certain amount of sense from his standpoint and also demonstrates again how little anyone in the south is taking threats from the North seriously. I am sort of amused by his thought that there's no point in giving away half the kingdoms to Balon for something he's doing anyway and until he proves that he can actually hold what he's conquered. The entire Ironborn invasion is just so completely half assed that they can see it all the way down in Kings Landing. As awful as she is, I find myself having a small pang of sympathy for Cersei when Tywin's so blithely talking about marrying her off again. Of course she understands that this is her primary value to him, which has always been the source of so much of her anger. Marrying her off also gets her out of Kings Landing where she can't so readily be a bad influence on Joffrey or have easy access to Jaime if and when he comes back, and you know she realizes that. I'm with Tyrion in contemplating what Jaime's reaction would have been had he returned to find her gone as a bride to Highgarden. He's probably right that the pre-Riverlands trek pre losing a hand Jaime would have put a sword through Willas Tyrell, I don't know if he would have doubled down on the whole star crossed lovers thing if she was suddenly gone with no chance for him to gradually become disillusioned with her on his own as he actually does or what. The line "He could think of nothing he would enjoy more, except perhaps strangling Cersei" got my attention, especially in light of all the raging debate after the season finale about who will end up being Cersei's valonqar. The line that gets me is Tywin saying that Jeyne is Sybell's daughter just as Robb is Ned's son. Kevan even makes it seem like Gawen Westerling is an okay guy but it's his wife who is a piece of work. Why does Tywin think that Jeyne is like Sybell? We know why he thinks Robb is like Ned IMO and I doubt it's flattering. I agree too that we get this reminder about what happened to House Reyne and Tyrion knows that something is off about Tywin not behaving as though it's that big of a deal. Obviously Tywin isn't going to foam at the mouth because that isn't really his style, but Tyrion knows how his father acts when he's super upset and Tywin was not feeling upset. He's damn near gleeful. I'm inclined to think that it's a little from column A and a lot from column B. There might have been a certain amount of bet hedging, but it was no accident that Jeyne was the one to nurse Robb rather than some common or lower ranking girl. I trust Grey Wind and Tyrion's instincts here. Has he ever been wrong about Tywin? He even thinks back to the letters Tywin was writing back during their last meeting and already knows that something is up. Robb and Jeyne haven't even been married that long. Your second point in bold caught my attention too and gave me pause as well. Not only that but we hear about a woman who I assume is Maggy the Frog here. I've always maintained that the Cersei prophecy is a retcon but it seems like it might have been on his mind after all for us to have a mention of this fortune teller and have Tyrion specifically thinking about strangling Cersei as opposed to just killing her in general. I have trouble imagining what Jaime's reaction would have been if he'd come back with one hand to find Cersei had been forced to go to Highgarden, Sunspear, or Pyke. What would he have been able to do about it besides maybe visit her and attempt to convince her to leave with him? I'm not sure he would have done anything except be full of anger, sadness, and feelings of general impotence. 1 Link to comment
WearyTraveler July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: The line "He could think of nothing he would enjoy more, except perhaps strangling Cersei" got my attention, especially in light of all the raging debate after the season finale about who will end up being Cersei's valonqar. I think that's Martin's attempt at misdirection. If I'm not mistaken, we only read that Jaimie is younger once in all five books, after that it's reminder after reminder that Tyrion is the youngest, in the hopes that perhaps we have forgotten Cersei and Ned's conversation. Just as Ashara Dane was misdirection on the R+L=J plot. It's really quite amazing that almost everything we need to know to understand this story was laid out in book 1. On the one hand I think it's kind of brilliant; OTOH, I think "holy shit! five books and the Walkers are still north of the Wall?" :D I mostly enjoy the Tyrion chapters (before his adventures in Essos began, that is). He's quite a fascinating character in that I think he has both, an inferiority and a superiority complex at once. I think part of the sting here on his role in Blackwater being celebrated is that they are happy to congratulate him behind closed doors, but no one stands up for him when the smallfolk call him a devil and what not. The Tyrells are more than happy to let people think that they are the saviours of KL, Tywin too, for that matter. And while they do congratulate him, they don't reward him for any of it. They have just divided all the plunder, distributing castles and titles left and right, and Tyrion didn't even get a weirwood stump, only a faint promise that he could, maybe, if the time was right, at some point in the future, claim Winterfell for his son. He knows his father is not going to give him Casterly Rock, so what does he get for his service? Also, I think he's pissed because they only thank him for the chain, when he did so much more than that. It's like they are deliberately trying to diminish his merits, so they can look better, smarter, savvier. The praise sometimes border in the patronising: "the chain was a great idea, I'll grant you that" has the unspoken part "but it was not enough to win, you silly dwarf who knows nothing about fighting wars". So, yeah, Tyrion is bitter about that. But I do agree that his desire for love and admiration does sometimes make him petty. Edited July 11, 2016 by WearyTraveler 3 Link to comment
benteen July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 Fair points. Tyrion does have more indignities to suffer. The dwarf's penny for one. And how apparently the smallfolk believe that he screwed over two pieces of shit like Pycelle and Slynt. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 11, 2016 Share July 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Avaleigh said: The line that gets me is Tywin saying that Jeyne is Sybell's daughter just as Robb is Ned's son. Kevan even makes it seem like Gawen Westerling is an okay guy but it's his wife who is a piece of work. Why does Tywin think that Jeyne is like Sybell? We know why he thinks Robb is like Ned IMO and I doubt it's flattering. I agree too that we get this reminder about what happened to House Reyne and Tyrion knows that something is off about Tywin not behaving as though it's that big of a deal. Obviously Tywin isn't going to foam at the mouth because that isn't really his style, but Tyrion knows how his father acts when he's super upset and Tywin was not feeling upset. He's damn near gleeful. I'm inclined to think that it's a little from column A and a lot from column B. There might have been a certain amount of bet hedging, but it was no accident that Jeyne was the one to nurse Robb rather than some common or lower ranking girl. I trust Grey Wind and Tyrion's instincts here. Has he ever been wrong about Tywin? He even thinks back to the letters Tywin was writing back during their last meeting and already knows that something is up. Robb and Jeyne haven't even been married that long. Your second point in bold caught my attention too and gave me pause as well. Not only that but we hear about a woman who I assume is Maggy the Frog here. I've always maintained that the Cersei prophecy is a retcon but it seems like it might have been on his mind after all for us to have a mention of this fortune teller and have Tyrion specifically thinking about strangling Cersei as opposed to just killing her in general. Oh, I've never thought it was any sort of accident that Jeyne was the one sent to nurse Robb or that he just happened to be convalescing in her bed. Either way, it's reasonable to assume Sybell is going to make the most of having Robb Stark on her home turf. Even without the king of the North thing, he's the lord paramount of one of the seven kingdoms. If he wins the war, her daughter is queen. If he loses, as it increasingly looks like he's going to, she can offer her services to Tywin as Robb's mother-in-law to make sure the troublesome Stark line ends here. Tywin must have thought he hit whatever Westeros' version of the lottery was when he heard that not only had Robb thrown away the Frey alliance but that he'd done it with the daughter of one of his bannermen who might very well be looking to get back in his good graces. I've always thought the valonqar prophecy read like a late add on too when Martin ran out of POV characters left in Kings Landing and had to give her some sort of motivation, considering that Cersei doesn't spend any time acting like she's least bit afraid of Tyrion or making any effort not to antagonize him as one might if they truly thought that person might one day be driven to kill them. I just find it interesting given how everyone and their dog are writing long think pieces on why the valonqar can't possibly ever in no way or shape ever ever ever be Tyrion because Jaime just has to be. I'll admit here that the prophecy bores me because I find it predictable and would much rather see Cersei end up alone and powerless knowing that all her children are dead for nothing and that both of her brothers despise her and went on to find some kind of success or happiness without her, pipe dream that very likely is. I do hope that if the valonqar turns out to be a real thing that it's Tyrion simply because I want her to be taken out by a monster that was entirely of her own and her family's making in their cruelty toward him. Given how self-destructive and self-defeating the Lannisters are throughout the series, I consider that much more likely. 4 Link to comment
Lady S. July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 8 hours ago, WearyTraveler said: I think part of the sting here on his role in Blackwater being celebrated is that they are happy to congratulate him behind closed doors, but no one stands up for him when the smallfolk call him a devil and what not. The Tyrells are more than happy to let people think that they are the saviours of KL, Tywin too, for that matter. And while they do congratulate him, they don't reward him for any of it. They have just divided all the plunder, distributing castles and titles left and right, and Tyrion didn't even get a weirwood stump, only a faint promise that he could, maybe, if the time was right, at some point in the future, claim Winterfell for his son. He knows his father is not going to give him Casterly Rock, so what does he get for his service? Also, I think he's pissed because they only thank him for the chain, when he did so much more than that. It's like they are deliberately trying to diminish his merits, so they can look better, smarter, savvier. The praise sometimes border in the patronising: "the chain was a great idea, I'll grant you that" has the unspoken part "but it was not enough to win, you silly dwarf who knows nothing about fighting wars". So, yeah, Tyrion is bitter about that. But I do agree that his desire for love and admiration does sometimes make him petty. Yes! Yes! Yes! It's not like Tyrion would be demanding a parade if no one else was getting one. The issue is that Tywin, the Tyrells, and even a dead traitor are being celebrated in every way, and literally everyone else has already been rewarded for their efforts, so of course private kudos ring a little hollow. Kevan probably was being sincere, but IMO Mace and Paxter were just being polite just as Cersei was with them. Mace all but laughs at the idea of Tyrion in command of an army, even though he is no great general himself and even though Tyrion was in command during Blackwater and Stannis could have taken the city before the Tyrells got there were it not for Tyrion's battle leadership. IA that reducing his part to just the chain is denying what he actually accomplished with the implication that they were the real saviors, which was the same position Tywin took in Tyrion I. So I wouldn't count politely mentioning the chain in private as true recognition, just the absolute minimum gesture they could give him to avoid being too rude while doing everything possible to celebrate themselves. 6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: Oh, I've never thought it was any sort of accident that Jeyne was the one sent to nurse Robb or that he just happened to be convalescing in her bed. Either way, it's reasonable to assume Sybell is going to make the most of having Robb Stark on her home turf. Even without the king of the North thing, he's the lord paramount of one of the seven kingdoms. If he wins the war, her daughter is queen. If he loses, as it increasingly looks like he's going to, she can offer her services to Tywin as Robb's mother-in-law to make sure the troublesome Stark line ends here. Tywin must have thought he hit whatever Westeros' version of the lottery was when he heard that not only had Robb thrown away the Frey alliance but that he'd done it with the daughter of one of his bannermen who might very well be looking to get back in his good graces. Exactly, Tywin being happy about Robb's idiotic doomed marriage just means he wasn't an idiot himself, and we already know from Arya's last Clash chapter that he was already plotting with Roose and the Freys. The Duskendale incident related here further confirms that, as I think the trap with the Mountain waiting for them and Tarly being ready when they got there probably means Roose dashed off a raven to Tywin as soon as he sent Glover away. Tywin also doesn't need to worry about punishing the Westerlings because the Freys were going to do it for him at the Red Wedding, where they did kill Jeyne's elder brother. Catelyn and Robb's scant remaining good sense were the only reason Jeyne herself wasn't there, not Tywin or Sybell. I think the line about Jeyne being her mother's daughter meant she has her mother's bad breeding and would have never achieved such a marriage in normal circumstances. Unworthy blood is probably a bigger black mark in Tywin's eyes than being a dishonest schemer. (Kevan's line about the Westerlings having more honor than sense suggests that Gawen may have also felt obligated to marry Sybell.) I very much doubt Tywin bothered to get to know Jeyne personally if Kevan had only ever met her once. Jaime thought she was much better than Sybell and every other scene she appeared in she seemed to genuinely care for Robb. She was scared of Grey Wind, but he didn't have a problem with her like he did Sybell and Rolph. I'm sure Sybell had probably already gotten in touch with Tywin to cover her ass and promise Jeyne would never give Robb an heir, but if Jeyne was actually on the same page, her mother wouldn't have needed to pull a Hoster and drug her tea with "fertility herbs" which actually had the opposite purpose. On 7/10/2016 at 11:36 PM, Avaleigh said: My question is, why does a Cersei/Balon union work for Tywin but not an Asha/Tyrion one? I get that Asha/Tyrion doesn't secure the North at all but just to get Balon's ships which is the main thing they want, wouldn't this work just as well as Balon/Cersei? Or is the idea to keep Cersei a queen? An Asha/Tyrion union would last a lot longer and there's a better chance for children. I don't think Tywin actually intended for Cersei to marry Balon any more than he intended for Tyrion to marry Lollys. She objected to Willas too, but I imagine the old squid did sound worse than the crippled dog boy, and Tywin made it clear that Willas was his preference. I think he wanted Cersei married off ASAP to get her away from Joff and out of KL, so counting on the off-chance that Alannys would conveniently drop dead would be pretty impractical imo. And I don't think he ever intended to recognize Balon's kingship and give away any of Joffrey's realm, but it didn't matter to him so long as Robb was still alive. Cleaning out the krakens or any other savages was Roose's responsibility, not Tywin's, and I think it likely he and Roose had already agreed on that much. All of Tywin's statements regarding the North/the Starks aren't entirely genuine because Tywin (and maybe Kevan IMO, as Tywin's only confidante) had a lot of information about what was going to happen next in the war, which he did not see fit to share with Tyrion, Cersei, or anyone else on the small council. Anyways, my favorite part of this chapter is how quickly Cersei and Tyrion go to childish sniping as soon as the non-family members have all left the room. Tywin doesn't admonish them by pointing out they are adults, but instead points out they are Lannisters. Which I imagine is the same thing he said when they actually were children. 3 Link to comment
benteen July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 (edited) Willas would be the most appealing marriage. Highgarden at least seems like a beautiful place unlike those, to quote TV Ramsay, "shit-stained rocks" that are the Iron Islands. Not to mention the Iron Islands treat women terribly. So if Cersei had to marry, I would think Willas would be a no-brainer. Not to mention Willas doesn't have insane relative lurking around like Balon does (ie Euron). Edited July 12, 2016 by benteen 3 Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 The idea of shipping Cersei off to Pyke, which always reads like a smelly hellhole full of smelly nutjobs, is amusing but I don't take Tywin seriously on this either. He points out here that the Ironborn aren't really up to occupying and ruling through a Northern winter, and he knows he's about reset the game board with the red wedding anyway. It's smart to delay on making any recognition of Balon until he sees where all the pieces fall from that, but the smelly old squid king as a potential bridegroom is a nice specter he can hold over Cersei's head to make Willas and the Tyrell marriage Tywin clearly wants seem like a much more preferable option. Musing about all this does make me wonder with all the chess pieces he's moving here trying to arrange Cersei and Tyrion's marriages, has Roose Bolton married Fat Walda yet and if not, did Tywin ever consider a marriage alliance there to his about to be newly elevated warden of the North should Tyrion prove particularly obstinate? Thanks to Ramsay, Roose has no trueborn heirs. Shipping Cersei North also gets her out of the way and away from Joffrey. Maybe not though, since they still have to neutralize Sansa through marriage to some unnamed Lannister to be named later. 2 Link to comment
benteen July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 Interesting question. Despite how he views his children, I think even Tywin would be leery about marrying his daughter off to the Boltons with their reputation. It's a valid consideration though, definitely. Always interesting that there's never even a thought considered to the idea that Tywin get remarried. Because of his power and status, he could have a lot of potential brides. My thought always was that he loved his wife so much that he would never consider getting married again. Although I've heard the theory that he avoided marriage because he was terrified of the idea of having another dwarf son and what people would think of him as a result. 3 Link to comment
Lady S. July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said: Musing about all this does make me wonder with all the chess pieces he's moving here trying to arrange Cersei and Tyrion's marriages, has Roose Bolton married Fat Walda yet Yes, Roose married her in Clash. Edmure mentioned it as a reason they could afford to take away the men Robb left to guard the Twins, and Arya's time as Roose's cupbearer also included details about Walda sending him daily love letters. I noticed that Tywin only promises Tyrion the chance to rule Winterfell as Sansa's husband. I suspect Tywin was aware that Tyrion would have a hard time actually being accepted in the North. If he actually cared all that much about using Sansa to set up a cadet Lannister branch, I think it'd make more sense to use her claim to Riverrun, since Catelyn's kids were also Edmure's heirs so long as he remained childless. The riverlands are the Lannisters' neighbors so they'd just be expanding their territory. OTOH they never really show much interest in the north so it's hard for me to imagine it was suddenly a prize meant to be a key part of the Lannister legacy. Tywin was already counting on Robb's imminent death so I'd think locking down Sansa's claim to Winterfell would have occurred to him before the Tyrells got involved if he really wanted a Lannister to rule the North. 7 minutes ago, benteen said: Always interesting that there's never even a thought considered to the idea that Tywin get remarried. Because of his power and status, he could have a lot of potential brides. My thought always was that he loved his wife so much that he would never consider getting married again. Although I've heard the theory that he avoided marriage because he was terrified of the idea of having another dwarf son and what people would think of him as a result. I used to consider the second explanation too, but I think it may be too much of a modern view of genetics. I'm not sure Tywin would actually see dwarfism as something that could be passed on inside of him. He's a very proud and a vain man and I'm not sure these people really differentiate between random, freak defects and inherited diseases/conditions like that. If it's just a freak curse from the gods, what are the odds it would happen again? If Joanna had lived, I'm pretty sure Tywin would have tried to have more children with her, so I'd think this risk alone shouldn't have stopped him with another woman. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 That's right. I'd forgotten we'd already heard about Roose's marriage in COK. I've always thought the way Tywin phrases it about ruling Winterfell through his son with Sansa that Tywin knows damn well that the Northerners will never accept a Lannister dwarf as their ruling lord. I also don't think he cares very much except as a chance to get a grandkid with a legitimate claim to yet another kingdom. Tywin's apparent refusal to be a part of the marriage sweepstakes is certainly a fair question, considering his heir apparent is a sworn member of the Kingsguard forbidden to marry or inherit and he makes a habit of swearing at least once or twice a day that his dwarf son will never get anything with Lannister stamped on it. Common wisdom would suggest he would have taken a hard look at the situation and started over with another wife and batch of kids, but common wisdom so often doesn't seem to apply where the Lannisters are concerned. Tywin seems to be operating as though he thinks he's going to live forever. 5 Link to comment
WearyTraveler July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 I think Tywin's plan was that Tommen rule Casterly Rock. 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 I too assumed think that Tywin had Tommen in his back pocket as an eventual ruler of the Rock. This would make any subsequent children of Tommen's Princes and Princesses of the the Rock and that would put them on the level of Dorne in that sense. I think that Tywin just didn't want to marry again because he loved Joanna so much, but I do like the idea of him having that fear of a second dwarf in the back of his head. I'm inclined to agree though that he probably doesn't see it as genetic so much as a on time 'curse' from the gods, and I feel like that's supported by him not giving any indication that he thinks Tyrion will father a dwarf. Tyrion could have gone on to be a maester and not had any children at all but Tywin doesn't seem to be against him marrying and fathering heirs, and I feel like he'd be less supportive of this if he feared another dwarf popping up in their line. Since they don't have a history of dwarves in the family, I'm guessing he leans towards this being a one time thing. Quote I think the line about Jeyne being her mother's daughter meant she has her mother's bad breeding and would have never achieved such a marriage in normal circumstances. Unworthy blood is probably a bigger black mark in Tywin's eyes than being a dishonest schemer. (Kevan's line about the Westerlings having more honor than sense suggests that Gawen may have also felt obligated to marry Sybell.) I very much doubt Tywin bothered to get to know Jeyne personally if Kevan had only ever met her once. I don't think Tywin's comment was based on any impression that he got of Jeyne from encountering her personally. I think his comment was based on whatever Sybell told him about her and that this indicates that Jeyne was playing along on some level. I can see Jeyne initially doing whatever her mother told her to do only to genuinely fall for Robb later. As for the moon tea or whatever it was that Sybell gave Jeyne, I feel like Jeyne should have some idea of what's going on with her own body in connection with the tea bringing on bleeding, but possibly not. Then again, I'm unclear as to how long she and Robb were even married. Maybe I could see her not making the connection at first but after awhile, I don't know, especially if becoming pregnant was something she was so fixated on as she claims. 1 Link to comment
Lady S. July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 6 hours ago, Avaleigh said: I don't think Tywin's comment was based on any impression that he got of Jeyne from encountering her personally. I think his comment was based on whatever Sybell told him about her and that this indicates that Jeyne was playing along on some level. I can see Jeyne initially doing whatever her mother told her to do only to genuinely fall for Robb later. As for the moon tea or whatever it was that Sybell gave Jeyne, I feel like Jeyne should have some idea of what's going on with her own body in connection with the tea bringing on bleeding, but possibly not. Then again, I'm unclear as to how long she and Robb were even married. Maybe I could see her not making the connection at first but after awhile, I don't know, especially if becoming pregnant was something she was so fixated on as she claims. Yeah, but as Sybell is a lying schemer, I don't really think it matters whatever she claimed about Jeyne to Tywin. Of course she'd want him to think her daughter had no real loyalty to a rebel. I'm sure Jeyne was aware of her own periods, but it's a still such a big leap from that to her mother secretly poisoning her and lying about fertility herbs. Of course she would trust her own mother not to violate her like that and lie to her. If she was in on seducing Robb, I'd think that would make her more unlikely to think her mother would keep being honest with her. She thought her mother wanted her to be QitN so it follows that she thought the marriage was meant to succeed. Some people have genuine fertility problems, probably even in a world with mysterious herbs, so I think Jeyne would be worried about that before even considering that her mother was deliberately causing the problems and hedging her bets on Jeyne's likely widowhood. 9 hours ago, WearyTraveler said: I think Tywin's plan was that Tommen rule Casterly Rock. And yet he makes no other back-up plans once Tommen is King and Jaime has refused to leave the Kingsguard. If he was planning to let Casterly Rock become a royal fief like Dragonstone, I'd think that the kind of major change he'd need to tell people about. I don't think a control freak chessmaster obsessed with his own legacy like Tywin was just lets his own secession be unsecured by accident. If he was ever going to accept Jaime not being his heir he should have made sure Tyrion was disinherited (and Cersei, for that matter, as her claim comes before her kids) and publicly recognized and prepared a new heir apparent. 1 Link to comment
Jazzy24 July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 10 hours ago, WearyTraveler said: I think Tywin's plan was that Tommen rule Casterly Rock. Tywin's plan was for Jaime to rule Casterly Rock. He never strayed from that plan even when Cersei and Jaime got that cloak on him. 1 Link to comment
WearyTraveler July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 7 hours ago, Jazzy24 said: Tywin's plan was for Jaime to rule Casterly Rock. He never strayed from that plan even when Cersei and Jaime got that cloak on him. You are right. I meant that Tywin's back up plan was Tommen and his backup-backup plan was Myrcella's children, probably. Or it may all just be that Martin wanted Tywin to remain single, and we are looking for explanations when there are none. LOL! 2 Link to comment
Lady S. July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 In this case, I don't think the lack of explanation was a slip by Martin, but rather a fault of Tywin that shows how irrational he really is. I doubt GRRM just forgot that Tywin would need a back-up heir anymore than Tywin would have. To actually prevent Tyrion from inheriting even if Jaime refused to take his place, Tywin would need more than vague unspoken notions in the back of his mind. No one would be reading his mind and still following his orders once he was dead. If things hadn't gone down the way they did in this book with Tywin/Tyrion/Cersei, and say, Tywin just dropped dead of a heart attack out of frustration with his kids, Casterly Rock would be down to Tyrion or Cersei. But actually having a known alternate heir would give Jaime more reason not to fall in line as Tywin's heir, and Tywin was just not going to let Jaime get away with that. Allowing any of his children to be their own people and make choices different from Tywin's would just be intolerable for him. 4 Link to comment
benteen July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 Even Randyll Tarly had to concoct a scenario to get Sam to give up his claim to Horn Hill. I could see Tywin outright refusing to give Tyrion Casterly Rock, no matter what traditions and laws applied to inheritance. Jaime was who he wanted as heir no matter what. The idea of having the Lord of Casterly Rock be a prince I think would have been appealing to him at some point. 1 Link to comment
SeanC July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 22 hours ago, Avaleigh said: I think his comment was based on whatever Sybell told him about her and that this indicates that Jeyne was playing along on some level. I can see Jeyne initially doing whatever her mother told her to do only to genuinely fall for Robb later. As for the moon tea or whatever it was that Sybell gave Jeyne, I feel like Jeyne should have some idea of what's going on with her own body in connection with the tea bringing on bleeding, but possibly not. Then again, I'm unclear as to how long she and Robb were even married. Maybe I could see her not making the connection at first but after awhile, I don't know, especially if becoming pregnant was something she was so fixated on as she claims. Jeyne's scenes in AFFC make it pretty obvious she had no idea anything untoward was going on. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 I think the whole lack of a clear line of succession is a terrific example of Tywin refusing to see any of his family for who they really are, as well as believing in his absolute iron control over them to bend them to his will. Jaime's been a member of the Kingsguard for how many years now? And Tywin is in his later 50s and still out leading armies. Yet he acts as if this is all a temporary situation and it's just a matter of time, which we know he doesn't have, for Jaime to come around and do what he wants. Quote But actually having a known alternate heir would give Jaime more reason not to fall in line as Tywin's heir, and Tywin was just not going to let Jaime get away with that. Allowing any of his children to be their own people and make choices different from Tywin's would just be intolerable for him. I also think this is big piece of the puzzle. The very small part of Tywin's brain that may be able to contemplate or acknowledge this at all probably thinks that as long as the succession isn't resolved and he happens to die, Jaime will surely fall in line because he's something of a known leader and he wouldn't want the Westerlands to fall into chaos, right? He at least enjoys the perks of being a Lannister even if he's not a terribly ambitious one. If Tywin names Tyrion or Kevan or Daven or a cousin or grandchild to be named later, then it's settled and Jaime will never feel any real pressure to step up and do what Tywin wants. Tywin certainly can't have that. It is interesting that for all of Tywin's declarations that Tyrion will never have the Rock, we never see exactly how he intends to prevent that once he's dead. I'm honestly not clear enough on Westerosi law to know: Does Jaime swearing off inheriting for the Kingsguard work the same way as Sam swearing it off for the Wall where it automatically kicks to the next brother? Does the current lord have to make some sort of official decree affirming who their successor is? Five books in and we're still not clear on this, particularly where the Lannisters are concerned. I'm honestly a little surprised that it never comes up at all with all the various Lannister cousins, aunts, and uncles we meet. 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 9 minutes ago, SeanC said: Jeyne's scenes in AFFC make it pretty obvious she had no idea anything untoward was going on. I honestly can't remember Jeyne's scenes in AFFC, so I'm sure you're right. So basically she had no idea that her mother was playing her. A little boring for me, but I guess it's a comfort that Robb wasn't also betrayed by his wife. Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 Without looking, the only scenes I can really remember Jeyne saying much of anything is the one in this book where she's waaaay oversharing with Catelyn that they're certainly trying for an heir every night and the one in the next book where Jaime asks her about any possibility of pregnancy after the end of the Riverrun siege before sending her and her surviving family on their way back toward the Crag. She's either truly mourning Robb to the point of ripping her clothes or giving a very convincing appearance of it, either way pissing off her mother as Jaime notes. 1 Link to comment
WearyTraveler July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said: I'm honestly not clear enough on Westerosi law to know: (1) Does Jaime swearing off inheriting for the Kingsguard work the same way as Sam swearing it off for the Wall where it automatically kicks to the next brother? (2) Does the current lord have to make some sort of official decree affirming who their successor is? (1) Yes. It works exactly the same way. KG serve for life. Dismissing Barristan Selmy was a first in the history of Westeros after Aegon's conquest. I believe there were no KG before that. So, unless Jaimie is dismissed by Tommen and fired from the KG, the heir to Casterly Rock should be Tyrion, but, since he killed his father and has also been convicted of regicide, he won't get it. The Crown can take his lands because he's a traitor and give them to whoever the Crown wants, just as they give away Harrenhall to anyone they need to reward. But since Cersei is still alive, she's the current heir to Casterly Rock right now. (2) They don't have to make a decree if they want the line of succession to apply as is customary. But, if they don't, which is what Tywin has said, then they need to name a successor. By the end of Tyrion's Trial by Combat, Tywin knew that the one next in line to inherit CR was Cersei. I agree that he might have been hoping that Jaimie would renounce his vows and/or that the Crown would fire him, like they did with Selmy, but he's either overconfident on his ability to manipulate the situation, or in large barge sailing down The Nile. Edited July 13, 2016 by WearyTraveler 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 Catelyn III The bodies of Tion Frey and Willem Lannister are placed in front of Robb, and Catelyn can't help but think of Bran and Rickon as she watches the scene. She wonders if Sansa's naked corpse will be laid out in front of the Iron Throne. Grey Wind is outside howling. Catelyn thinks about how close the Crag is to Casterly Rock and wonders if Jeyne ever played with Tion and Willem when they were all younger. Rickard Karstark and his accomplices are brought before Robb to answer for the murders of Willem and Tion. Rickard doesn't seem to think that he's done anything wrong, and Robb has to explain to him that he's committed murder and that the imprisoned boys were twelve or thirteen and unarmed. Rickard says that Catelyn is as responsible for their deaths as he is and Catelyn feels like she's going to vomit at this point. Robb tells Rickard that Catelyn had nothing to do with the situation. Rickard asks how it can be treason to kill Lannisters when it isn't considered to be treason to free them. He asks Robb if he's forgotten that they're at war with Casterly Rock. Rickard addresses Robb as 'Boy' and ends up getting a smack for it from the Greatjon. Robb tells the Greatjon to stop hitting Rickard and Rickard ends up spitting out a tooth after the Greatjon is done with him. Rickard mocks Robb and talks about how Robb seems to have a tendency to forgive things like treason. He asks Robb if he should call him the King Who Lost the North. The Greatjon pretty much begs Robb to be allowed to be the one to kill Rickard, and flat out asks if he can slice open Rickard's belly. The Blackfish comes in and interrupts the moment. Robb understands that Brynden wants to speak with him and announces that he'll speak with his uncle privately. He gives instructions to the Greatjon that Rickard's accomplices are to be hanged--even the dead ones because he doesn't like the idea of their bodies befouling Edmure's rivers. One of Rickard's accomplices pleads for mercy and claims that he didn't take part in the murders. He says he only watched, so Robb tells him that he can watch the others go first and be the last to be hanged. The sound of thunder is crashing and Catelyn wonders if this is the sound of Robb's kingdom falling. The Blackfish says that they've lost all of the fighting men from House Karstark and informs Robb that Rickard has offered his daughter to the man who brings him the head of Jaime Lannister. Edmure doesn't want a word of what's happened to leave Riverrun and seems nervous about what will happen to them if Tywin finds out. Robb asks his uncle if he would have him be a liar as well as a murderer, and Catelyn thinks about what will happen to Sansa. The Blackfish says it's too late to try to keep the murders a secret, and Robb wonders what the Karstark men who are with Roose Bolton will do when they hear. Edmure urges Robb to pardon Rickard or to at least spare his life and keep him as a hostage. Edmure asks what hope there will be for them if they lose the Karstarks on top of already having lost the Freys. Robb mentions the fact that he's sent multiple letters to Lysa and all have gone unanswered. Catelyn says that her sister has never been brave and tells Robb not to expect any help from Lysa. “The Others can take her, then,” Robb cursed, in a fury of despair. “Bloody Rickard Karstark as well. And Theon Greyjoy, Walder Frey, Tywin Lannister, and all the rest of them. Gods be good, why would any man ever want to be king? When everyone was shouting King in the North, King in the North, I told myself... swore to myself... that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies... now I can’t even tell one from the other. How did it all get so confused? Lord Rickard’s fought at my side in half a dozen battles. His sons died for me in the Whispering Wood. Tion Frey and Willem Lannister were my enemies. Yet now I have to kill my dead friends’ father for their sakes.” He looked at them all. “Will the Lannisters thank me for Lord Rickard’s head? Will the Freys?” The Blackfish says that Robb won't be thanked by his enemies for killing Rickard, and Edmure says that this is all the more reason why Rickard should be kept alive as a hostage. Robb puts his crown back on his head and makes it clear that Rickard will die. Robb says that Rickard didn't just kill Tion and Willem and feels that Rickard is responsible for killing his honor as well. Robb insists that he must be the one to kill Rickard, and Rickard thanks Robb for at least being able to do the deed himself. Rickard tells Robb how he was named for Robb's grandfather and talks about how they're kin. He talks about the times he's fought with the Starks over the years and how he stood with Ned during the Battle of the Trident. Robb points out that their kinship didn't stop Rickard from betraying him and says that it won't spare him now. Rickard tells Robb that "no man is so accursed as the kinslayer" and says that the gods will judge him. When Robb asks Rickard if he has any final words, Rickard tells him to kill him and be cursed, and says that he's no longer his king. Rickard dies after the first swing but it takes three to completely sever the head from the body. More than one person is drenched in blood after the execution is done. Jeyne goes to visit with Catelyn later in that evening and asks for advice on how to comfort Robb. She mentions that she advised Robb to use a headsman and says that this is what Tywin would have done. She thinks it would have been easier that way and Catelyn tells Jeyne that Robb's father taught his sons that killing should never be easy. Jeyne says she doesn't know what to do and says that she can't even get Robb to change his clothes. She says that she wants to be a good wife to him but doesn't know how she can help. She wants to comfort him but doesn't know how, and asks Catelyn what she should do. “Sometimes,” Catelyn said slowly, “the best thing you can do is nothing. When I first came to Winterfell, I was hurt whenever Ned went to the godswood to sit beneath his heart tree. Part of his soul was in that tree, I knew, a part I would never share. Yet without that part, I soon realized, he would not have been Ned. Jeyne, child, you have wed the north, as I did... and in the north, the winters will come.” She tried to smile. “Be patient. Be understanding. He loves you and he needs you, and he will come back to you soon enough. This very night, perhaps. Be there when he does. That is all I can tell you.” Jeyne says that she'll be there for Robb and says she'll be patient. Catelyn tells Jeyne that what Robb really needs is an heir, and Jeyne smiles at this and says that her mother makes a posset for her that she drinks every morning to help make her fertile. She promises that she'll be pregnant soon. Once Catelyn is alone again with her father, she thinks about Jeyne and decides that Jeyne has a good heart just as Robb said. She notes that Jeyne has good hips too and thinks that this might be more important. 1 Link to comment
Scarlett45 July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 Yes I think that Jeyne's mother was slipping her moon tea to make sure she didn't conceive. On the chance Robb did win the war, Jeynce could conceive then. When I first read this I understood where Robb was coming from. Karstark and his men murdered prisoners of war in cold blood because they were angry at Catelynn, but Karstark was worth more dead than alive and Robb should've thought about that.....trying to do the right thing in the moment but not thinking about the long term consequences. 3 Link to comment
benteen July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 Robb was foolish to have killed Rickard but I'm glad he did. Rickard was a vile coward. I found Robb's honesty about being King to be a fascinating moment. 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 Not one person tries to get Robb to send Rickard to the Wall? It's so strange that this isn't floated as a suggestion. Rickard is such an asshole. Not only does he murder two helpless kids but he has to rub it in Robb's face that he's lost the North. Catelyn only seems to think of Arya in vague and general terms, so I'm starting to think that she's basically given her up for dead. 3 Link to comment
benteen July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 Good point about the Wall. I wonder why the subject isn't broached once. There used to be a website that did this great feature called "If Game of Thrones was on Facebook." Characters would post updates and likes throughout the episode and it was really entertaining. Robb has the great line during this "He was only the watcher. Hang him last so he can watch the others die first." Tywin adds this line to his Facebook as one of his favorite quotes and states "I wish you were my son. That line was bad ass." 4 Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 ^^ The one on the red wedding episode was hysterical. I thought I had it bookmarked, but apparently not. And thus continues Robb's march of decisions where he's pretty much fucked either way right up to the red wedding. He's right in that if he lets Karstark get away with the treason of killing two unarmed noncombatants under Robb's nose and trash talking him and his decisions in front of his bannermen why should anyone respect him as king? He's right that the Lannisters and Freys aren't going to cut him any slack for punishing Karstark. If he takes the suggestion to keep Karstark as a hostage, that just kicks the can down the road on the very small chance that maybe some of the Karstark men will come back and he looks like a liar if he does later execute him. I understand the thinking behind wanting to keep him alive as leverage but given that we know the rest of the Karstark men are with Roose Bolton and Bolton's about to betray Robb anyway, it probably wouldn't have made any difference. Karstark is just a completely unreasonable ass here. His sons were killed on the battlefield, I'm assuming under the rules of conventional warfare. Did he realistically think they were going keep Tywin Lannister's son locked up for more than a year and then hand him over to him to execute over battlefield deaths? And now that he's killed two of his young nephews unarmed and in their sleep, how does he honestly see that playing out? It just doesn't make any sense on any level. I like Robb's musing on what he thought being a king would be vs. the reality. He probably ought to print it up and mail it out to each of the claimants for the Iron Throne. None of them up to this point seem to have given that much thought beyond thinking they should have it by right. We know Robert suffered from a similar disconnect and that it didn't bring him any happiness. Jeyne's comparison of Robb executing Karstark himself to Tywin using a headsman is a nice reminder that Tywin prefers to let others dirty their hands for him, as with the upcoming red wedding and when he had the Mountain murder the Targaryen children. 3 Link to comment
Lady S. July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 21 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: She's either truly mourning Robb to the point of ripping her clothes or giving a very convincing appearance of it, either way pissing off her mother as Jaime notes. But why would she put on a show of false loyalty to a dead rebel for Tywin Lannister's son? She should have been doing her best to perform loyalty to the Lannisters instead, if she actually were her mother's daughter. I also don't see much sense in telling Catelyn about the fertility posset unless she genuinely believed that's what it was. Tell your mother-in-law about your sex life, that's probably normal enough in this world of very few boundaries, but bringing up a false fertility enhancer risks Sybell being asked questions when the herbs continue to not produce any result. IIRC, there's only one Cat PoV after this before Robb leaves for the Red Wedding, so I think there probably wasn't enough time between now and then for things to get suspicious but they didn't know yet when Robb would leave Riverrun. He and Jeyne could have had months to continue fucking like bunnies who just got of prison while Catelyn waited anxiously for word of a possible grandchild. 17 hours ago, Avaleigh said: Not one person tries to get Robb to send Rickard to the Wall? It's so strange that this isn't floated as a suggestion. I don't think Karstark would have accepted that, all crimes are forgiven at the Wall but Rickard wouldn't even admit that what he did was a crime. Remember Ned had to confess his treason before he was supposed to take the black. Rickard would probably prefer to be a beheaded martyr than to try to earn redemption he didn't think he needed alongside common criminals. 18 hours ago, Avaleigh said: Catelyn only seems to think of Arya in vague and general terms, so I'm starting to think that she's basically given her up for dead. At the very least, she has little reason to think Arya's still in King's Landing with Sansa, but she does think all she has left is the fading hope of her daughters. 18 hours ago, benteen said: Robb was foolish to have killed Rickard but I'm glad he did. Rickard was a vile coward. Maybe foolish on the show, but I think he really did have no choice here. The Karstark cavalry was already lost, and the other key difference is that Rickard was unrepentant and mocked Robb in open court full of witnesses, instead of just Robb's family and a few guards. What would the other nobles and knights think if he didn't answer for that? Leniency for Karstark would prove him right about Robb being a toothless joke of a king with no authority worthy of respect. I don't think Harrion and the footsoldiers at Harrenhal would make enough difference toward winning the war so that they absolutely had to be placated. That was one of the things that bugged me about what the show did to Robb's sl, that they tried to make this asshole's death a bad thing. What really grinds my gears about Rickard is his self-absorption in thinking only his grief and vengeance are valid, and anyone else is less deserving of life than his sons. Two guards who would be traitors themselves if they didn't do their duty as guards are also guilty of wronging his sons. Somehow killing them is better than his two sons being killed on the battlefield after volunteering to be part of Robb's guard. And the fathers of these two innocent kids don't have a right to vengeance for their sons, who were killed as prisoners instead of in combat, because they were Jaime's kin. I think it's Rickard who doesn't understand how war works if he thinks people dying in the normal course of battle is murder but what he did wasn't. He also cares a hell of a lot more about his dead sons than his living daughter. Pimping out your kids is par for the course but usually it's done for lands, titles, a castle, and/or an army, assets more beneficial than a severed head. Alys could have ended up with one of the Bloody Mummers or a scumbag outlaw or sellsword for a husband if this deal had actually gone through. Catelyn saying Lysa was never brave and used to hide from their father made me feel a little sad about her miscarriage. It must have been hard for her to tell Hoster she was knocked up, but she did it because she assumed he'd want Petyr to marry her. One time she had some small measure of courage and it completely backfired on her. Quote The north is hard and cold, and has no mercy, Ned had told her when she first came to Winterfell a thousand years ago. What a reassuring thing to say to a new spouse you barely know. These two must have been such a fun couple. Quote There were tables and chairs, but only Edmure sat, and he rose again when he realized that the others had remained standing. This sentence is like a perfect description of Edmure Tully and his role within his family. 4 Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 Oh, I've never thought Jeyne was faking it. She may have been pushed into the initial go in there and let him seduce you thing, but I tend to give her the benefit of the doubt about pretty much everything else. Something about her just rings true to me, but I'm aware there are a ton of theories out there about her too that include her playing Robb right along with loathsome mother. I've had that thought about Alys Karstark too. Rickard is so hellbent on getting his warped idea of vengeance on Jaime that he doesn't care if what I believe is his only daughter ends up with some filthy illiterate sellsword for a husband or Vargo bloody Hoat. I realize a lot of these guys don't value their daughters very much or only value them for the marriage alliances they can make, but that's really harsh to tell her that her virginity and general well being as a wife are a fair trade off for the head of a guy who killed her brothers in battle. These Northern men are such romantics. Welcome to our life together in this cold, harsh, unforgiving place. But at least you're worth more than some guy's head. 2 Link to comment
Scarlett45 July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said: Oh, I've never thought Jeyne was faking it. She may have been pushed into the initial go in there and let him seduce you thing, but I tend to give her the benefit of the doubt about pretty much everything else. Something about her just rings true to me, but I'm aware there are a ton of theories out there about her too that include her playing Robb right along with loathsome mother. I've had that thought about Alys Karstark too. Rickard is so hellbent on getting his warped idea of vengeance on Jaime that he doesn't care if what I believe is his only daughter ends up with some filthy illiterate sellsword for a husband or Vargo bloody Hoat. I realize a lot of these guys don't value their daughters very much or only value them for the marriage alliances they can make, but that's really harsh to tell her that her virginity and general well being as a wife are a fair trade off for the head of a guy who killed her brothers in battle. These Northern men are such romantics. Welcome to our life together in this cold, harsh, unforgiving place. But at least you're worth more than some guy's head. Remind me of the details of Alys Karstark again? I recall she went to Jon to keep her from a forced marriage in ADWD but that's it.... Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 15, 2016 Share July 15, 2016 We find out in this chapter that Rickard Karstark has promised her as a bride to any man who brings him the head of Jaime Lannister. 1 Link to comment
Scarlett45 July 15, 2016 Share July 15, 2016 46 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said: We find out in this chapter that Rickard Karstark has promised her as a bride to any man who brings him the head of Jaime Lannister. Thank you. I took myself to the Wiki and read up on it. Karstark was a piece of work to say the least, and his brother was cut from the same cloth. Link to comment
Avaleigh July 15, 2016 Share July 15, 2016 Jaime III Jaime, Brienne, and Cleos are still traveling through the ravaged Riverlands. After two days of riding they don't come across any people, but at night they hear the constant howling of wolves. When they reach Maidenpool, Jaime starts singing a song about maidens in a pool, and this bothers Cleos and Brienne because they're afraid of who might end up hearing him. Brienne threatens to gag Jaime at one point, but ultimately decides that it won't be necessary. Cleos sees that Brienne is taking them on the Duskendale road, and he thinks it would be safer to follow the coast. Jaime says that following the coast is safer but slower and he prefers for them to go the faster way. He feels that he's been away from his twin for too long and thinks about how they've never been apart for very long even as children. He remembers being caught playing some sort of sexual game with Cersei when they were kids, and whatever they'd been caught doing was enough to horrify their mother and make her take preventative measures to ensure nothing similar ever happened again. It was not long after Jaime and Cersei were caught playing together that their mother died giving birth to Tyrion. Jaime thinks that he can barely remember what his mother looked like. Perhaps Stannis Baratheon and the Starks had done him a kindness. They had spread their tale of incest all over the Seven Kingdoms, so there was nothing left to hide. Why shouldn’t I marry Cersei openly and share her bed every night? The dragons always married their sisters. Septons, lords, and smallfolk had turned a blind eye to the Targaryens for hundreds of years, let them do the same for House Lannister. It would play havoc with Joffrey’s claim to the crown, to be sure, but in the end it had been swords that had won the iron Throne for Robert, and swords could keep Joffrey there as well, regardless of whose seed he was. We could marry him to Myrcella, once we’ve sent Sansa Stark back to her mother. That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like gods and Targaryens. Jaime decides that he's going to have Sansa returned to the Starks, and Arya as well if she can be found. He's amused by the idea of keeping his word when everyone expects him to break it. Archers suddenly begin to attack their party and Jaime shouts at Brienne and Cleos to get down. Cleos falls from his horse but his foot ends up getting stuck in the stirrup, so his head drags along as the horse takes off. Jaime and Brienne charge at the bowmen and they eventually take off running. Jaime wants to kill the bowmen but Brienne argues that they were running and chooses to them go. She asks Jaime why he decided to charge and he says that bowmen have a tendency to only be fearless if they have a wall to hide behind. Brienne has an arrow in her back and another in her leg. Jaime offers to tend to her wounds and says they should probably go and find Cleos. Cleos is dead and Jaime decides to take his horse and clothes. He wants to take Cleos's sword as well and tells Brienne that he'll swear an oath that he won't harm her. Brienne brings up the vow Jaime swore to Aerys and orders him to step away from Cleos's weapon. Jaime grabs the sword in spite of her objections, and the two begin to fight. Jaime thinks of the fight as a dance and tells Brienne that she's not bad at all. In the beginning, Jaime seems to dominate the fight. He continues to push Brienne back and at one point she stumbles and ends up on one knee. He later has her pinned against an oak tree but she manages to slip away. When Jaime tells her that her skills are on the level of some green squire, the next thing he knows the tables have turned and now he's the one who has to fight off Brienne. Once Brienne gains the advantage, Jaime seems more conscious of the limitations of being in his chains and having been locked away for so long in a dungeon. He realizes with a chill that Brienne is stronger than he is and it isn't long after this realization that she really starts to kick his ass. She repeatedly asks him to yield and threatens to drown him if he doesn't. Jaime asks her if she's ready to become an oathbreaker like him. A bunch of guys in the woods start laughing at Jaime and Brienne and Jaime recognizes the men as the Brave Companions. Brienne seems embarrassed and Jaime thinks to himself that she looks as though they'd just been caught fucking rather than fighting. The Bloody Mummers waste no time in talking about raping Brienne and Jaime thinks to himself that Brienne doesn't deserve to be raped, especially not by men like this. He asks who is in command and a man called Urswyck steps forward. Urswyck confirms that he knows who Jaime is and Jaime tells him that Brienne is highborn and should fetch him a good ransom. Urswyck's manner is chilly and Jaime quickly understands that the Brave Companions are no longer on Team Lannister. They tell Jaime that his father lost too many battles and soon begin to beat him. Brienne shouts at the men that Jaime isn't to be harmed and explains that he's under her protection at the orders of Catelyn. It takes four men to beat Brienne into submission and her face is a swollen mess afterwards. She's bloody and they've even knocked out a couple of her teeth. Jaime feels sorry for Brienne and thinks about how the men will likely take turns raping her. Jaime tells Brienne that he hopes she's pleased and says that if she'd allowed him to arm himself they'd never have been taken. He warns her that she's probably going to be raped later and tells her not to fight the men or she'll lose more than a few teeth. Brienne asks if that's what Jaime would do if he were a woman and Jaime thinks to himself that if he were a woman he would be Cersei. He admits that if he were in Brienne's position that he'd make the Mummers kill him. Jaime tries to get Urswyck to turn on Vargo by suggesting that Urswyck bring them straight to King's Landing. Urswyck doesn't think that Tywin is likely to forgive them for selling Harrenhal to Roose Bolton, and says that Tywin's arms aren't long enough to stretch over the walls of Harrenhal. When Jaime asks Urswyck if he's really so stupid to think that Vargo will be able to outfight the Lannisters, Urswyck gives Jaime a slap across the face and tells him that he'd have to be a fool to trust an oathbreaker like him. Jaime thinks that the insolence of the slap is worse than the slap itself and realizes that Urswyck doesn't fear him. Jaime thinks about how everything always comes back to the fact that he killed Aerys. Brienne asks Jaime why he told Urswyck about Tarth being the Sapphire Isle and Jaime warns her that the sooner the men figure out how little she's worth in ransom the sooner they'll start raping her. He tells her to close her eyes and pretend that every man is Renly. Brienne and Jaime are brought before Vargo Hoat and Brienne tries once more to tell them she's serving the mother of the king they're currently in service to. Vargo tells Rorge to silence Brienne, so she ends up getting kicked around some more. Jaime considers grabbing a sword away from one of the men but decides that he'd be too outnumbered, and isn't willing to die for Brienne. Jaime thinks that greed is the key to getting to Vargo and tells the sellsword that his father will give him a generous reward if he returns him. Vargo says that he means to have half of the gold in Casterly Rock, but he first wants to send Tywin a message. Jaime's legs are kicked out from under him and his arms are yanked forward. Jaime thinks that the men are just trying to scare him and decides that he won't give the men the satisfaction of making him scream. One of the men brings down a blade and Jaime is screaming a moment later. 1 Link to comment
Jazzy24 July 16, 2016 Share July 16, 2016 Vargo should have chopped off both of Jaime's hands. He had it coming and it's ironic that it was done by the men that his father hired. I laughed when Jaime got mutilated he should have died from it IMO. Jaime is traveling through a war torn country and all he can think about is that he and Cersei's relationship can finally be outed. Hes more than willing to start another war just so he can finally be with Cersei. Never mind that he knows how Westeros have suffered and suffered some more so that he can finally bang his sister. He and Cersei, his family and Littlfinger started this war yet he doesn't care at all. That Jaime can travel hundreds of miles and see the human suffering that he and his helped bring about and he never once looks around and thinks "what have I/WE done" makes him one of my all time hated characters ever. What a monster. 1 Link to comment
benteen July 16, 2016 Share July 16, 2016 (edited) I forgot that Jaime getting his hand cut off was in the same chapter as his duel with Brienne. The book battle between the two is far better than the show version of it, where the writers go all SUPER BRIENNE and have her defeat Jaime with relative ease. Poor Cleos. He really wasn't the worst guy and he gets killed. Not even his mother is that upset about it. I wonder if Joanna ever would have told Tywin what she had caught Jaime and Cersei doing. Edited July 17, 2016 by benteen 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 16, 2016 Share July 16, 2016 How crazy is Jaime here to consider having his kids have their own incestuous union? I honestly didn't remember that. In fact, I thought that Jaime sort of mocked Cersei and teased her about whether or not she had plans to have Tommen marry Myrcella. I certainly didn't recall him thinking about continuing the Targaryen tradition openly. I thought he wanted to live with Cersei at Casterly Rock and was ready to be done with King's Landing if Cersei was willing. If he'd come back to King's Landing with two hands, would he seriously have suggested this to Tywin? I wonder how Tywin would have dealt with his favorite son proposing such a controversial suggestion. What could he have done if Jaime was threatening to be open about the truth and killing him isn't an option he wants to consider? The arrogance in that paragraph is breathtaking. He flat out thinks that Lannisters are or should be on the level of gods and Targaryens. Also, he doesn't say it, but his thoughts of Cleos being 'a Lannister of sorts'--it's like Cleos being half Lannister isn't quite good enough for someone like Jaime whose mother and father were both born with the Lannister last name. I know he's mainly talking about Cleos's personality not being very Lannister like, but I also think there's some subconscious part of Jaime that feels superior for being more of a pure Lannister. He really does a lot of changing between now and AFFC. I like that ever since he's been released from the dungeons that Jaime is always conscious of trying to escape and/or get his hands on a weapon. Even after the Mummers catch them he looks around and knows he could probably grab a sword, but can see that he'd soon be overtaken. If he and Brienne had only known how their opinions on each other would change. I agree with Jaime that they wouldn't have been caught if they'd been fighting the Mummers together rather than wasting all of their energy fighting each other. I remember thinking during my first read that Jaime did a pretty good job of holding his own with Brienne considering he'd been chained up in a cell for so long and while I basically still feel that way, I didn't recall that Brienne was fighting after having just been shot with two arrows, so her win here is even more impressive than I remembered. I still hate that the show made it seem like Jaime can barely fight though. Brienne still doesn't seem to fully understand how dangerous their world is. Vargo Hoat is so stupid. How can he possibly think that cutting off Jaime's hand will help him at all in terms of money or safety? The only message that sends is one indicating that he's ready to die sooner rather than later. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker July 16, 2016 Share July 16, 2016 (edited) I love this fight so much. The writing is so slyly and subversively sexual in both the play by play and in all of its descriptors. Maybe it was the limitations of the actors' abilities, but I'll never stop wishing this is the fight we'd been shown onscreen, all the way down to Brienne being so exasperated and forgetting herself so completely she was straddling him and trying to drown him. Their capture makes more sense here too with them being so distracted by each other they didn't notice being surrounded, including Jaime's line that they wouldn't have been taken if he'd been armed when in fact they had been fighting at the time. Yes, Jaime's hubris in that section thinking about wanting to marry Cersei openly is breathtaking. I can sort of see how he got there because he's relatively free now after a long imprisonment and one way or another as far as he knows he's getting back to Kings Landing. He's also sat out the last year of the war, so if like nearly every other highborn in this series he can just ignore how the war has affected the countryside or its population, he can think it's all going to work out. After all, the Lannisters are still pretty resoundingly winning at this point, so who would challenge it? Still, it's stunningly delusional in light of the horror they'd just passed at Maidenpool and makes for quite the contrast in what we're about to see happen to the character. Considering that Cersei immediately rejects the idea on his return, it's unlikely it ever would have gotten as far as Tywin. I haven't ever gotten around to reading a lot of the Targaryen stuff outside this series because frankly they just don't interest me as much as they do George, but it seems the general rules of society like not marrying or reproducing with your siblings don't apply to them because they're all magical and Valyrian and quasi godlike to the point that Dany can be the product of a brother and sister who were the product of a brother and sister and people don't see that as the same sort of abomination as Joffrey. There's plenty of Tywin's "Lannister first, Lannisters always" thinking at work here. You can really see the resemblance between Jaime and Tyrion as brothers here. They both think they can talk or buy their way out of anything right up until the point they can't. I know we later get Roose's explanation for why Vargo Hoat cut off Jaime's hand, but it still seems like the least good option for the Brave Companions. There are rewards and ransoms to be had on either side if they were smart about it. Edited July 16, 2016 by nodorothyparker 2 Link to comment
Lady S. July 16, 2016 Share July 16, 2016 4 hours ago, Avaleigh said: How crazy is Jaime here to consider having his kids have their own incestuous union? I honestly didn't remember that. In fact, I thought that Jaime sort of mocked Cersei and teased her about whether or not she had plans to have Tommen marry Myrcella. I certainly didn't recall him thinking about continuing the Targaryen tradition openly. I thought he wanted to live with Cersei at Casterly Rock and was ready to be done with King's Landing if Cersei was willing. If he'd come back to King's Landing with two hands, would he seriously have suggested this to Tywin? I wonder how Tywin would have dealt with his favorite son proposing such a controversial suggestion. What could he have done if Jaime was threatening to be open about the truth and killing him isn't an option he wants to consider? The arrogance in that paragraph is breathtaking. He flat out thinks that Lannisters are or should be on the level of gods and Targaryens. Also, he doesn't say it, but his thoughts of Cleos being 'a Lannister of sorts'--it's like Cleos being half Lannister isn't quite good enough for someone like Jaime whose mother and father were both born with the Lannister last name. I know he's mainly talking about Cleos's personality not being very Lannister like, but I also think there's some subconscious part of Jaime that feels superior for being more of a pure Lannister. That was a line from Tyrion in Clash when Cersei objected to sending Mrycella to Dorne. At least Tommen and Myrcella got along, Jaime wanting to give Myrcella to Joffrey is even worse. He hasn't seen Joff at his worst with Sansa, but he's got to have some inkling of what a shit his firstborn is, especially given his reaction to the boy's death. So, it's hard for me to imagine he spent too much time loving his kids from a distance and longing to spend more quality time with them when this is the first time he's given any thought to them. He starts giving more thought to the concept of fatherhood after the break-up with Cersei, but I think he probably thought it was a fair enough trade while he was still high on twincest. This lack of any real grasp of the danger his children would be in if their parentage was acknowledged is why I don't think that washes as an excuse for his murder attempt on Bran. How can he have been acting out of fear and concern then if he never experiences any fear at any other time about the twincest being known? In his mind, the only obstacle was Robert himself, and the reason he had to kill Bran before Robert could find out was because Cersei still wanted Robert alive. He wasn't trying to protect a secret which he didn't even think needed to be a secret in the first place. Amid all the crazy arrogance, there's also a bit of AGoT Sansa-like naivete in Jaime's romanticism, thinking he can just live happily ever after with his twu wuv and let the grown-ups deal with the boring complications and things will come out all right in the end because life's just always been good to his family. The whole fantasy is so truly ridiculous taking into account that Jaime doesn't even know about the Tyrell alliance, meaning he thought the Lannisters could conquer the 7K all on their own, despite the fact they're missing the dragons which were pretty key to the original incesters defeating all their enemies. 15 hours ago, benteen said: I wonder if Joanna every would have told Tywin what she had caught Jaime and Cersei doing. If she'd actually managed to nip things in the bud, I don't think Tywin would have ever needed to know. Isn't it normal enough for one parent to keep a child's worst misbehavior secret from the other parent? 1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said: I know we later get Roose's explanation for why Vargo Hoat cut off Jaime's hand, but it still seems like the least good option for the Brave Companions. If Roose found it so easy to explain Vargo's behavior, could he not have predicted that Vargo shouldn't be the one to catch Jaime? I mean, we know from Catelyn I that Edmure sent Roose a raven as soon as he knew Jaime was loose, so Roose had plenty of time to plan out to rescue his secret ally's son and prevent him from being re-captured by the wrong people. Was it just unavoidable that the Bloody Mummers would have their shot since they were always out roaming and terrorizing? Nowhere else Roose could have sent them? 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 16, 2016 Share July 16, 2016 3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: I love this fight so much. The writing is so slyly and subversively sexual in both the play by play and in all of its descriptors. Maybe it was the limitations of the actors' abilities, but I'll never stop wishing this is the fight we'd been shown onscreen, all the way down to Brienne being so exasperated and forgetting herself so completely she was straddling him and trying to drown him. Their capture makes more sense here too with them being so distracted by each other they didn't notice being surrounded, including Jaime's line that they wouldn't have been taken if he'd been armed when in fact they had been fighting at the time. Yes, Jaime's hubris in that section thinking about wanting to marry Cersei openly is breathtaking. I can sort of see how he got there because he's relatively free now after a long imprisonment and one way or another as far as he knows he's getting back to Kings Landing. He's also sat out the last year of the war, so if like nearly every other highborn in this series he can just ignore how the war has affected the countryside or its population, he can think it's all going to work out. After all, the Lannisters are still pretty resoundingly winning at this point, so who would challenge it? Still, it's stunningly delusional in light of the horror they'd just passed at Maidenpool and makes for quite the contrast in what we're about to see happen to the character. Considering that Cersei immediately rejects the idea on his return, it's unlikely it ever would have gotten as far as Tywin. I haven't ever gotten around to reading a lot of the Targaryen stuff outside this series because frankly they just don't interest me as much as they do George, but it seems the general rules of society like not marrying or reproducing with your siblings don't apply to them because they're all magical and Valyrian and quasi godlike to the point that Dany can be the product of a brother and sister who were the product of a brother and sister and people don't see that as the same sort of abomination as Joffrey. There's plenty of Tywin's "Lannister first, Lannisters always" thinking at work here. You can really see the resemblance between Jaime and Tyrion as brothers here. They both think they can talk or buy their way out of anything right up until the point they can't. I know we later get Roose's explanation for why Vargo Hoat cut off Jaime's hand, but it still seems like the least good option for the Brave Companions. There are rewards and ransoms to be had on either side if they were smart about it. I think he meant if he'd been armed and Brienne had been okay with it so that they would immediately have started fighting the Mummers as opposed to wasting any time fighting each other. Jaime confronting Tywin is one of the few non supernatural situations I can think of where I'd feel like Tywin would suddenly feel out of his depth in terms of not being sure of how to handle it and what the best course of action would be. I can see him feeling totally helpless. (Again, this is under the scenario that Jaime comes back with two hands.) He can't threaten Jaime with disinheritance; he doesn't want to kill him or exile his favorite son; if he sends Cersei away, Jaime will just go and find her; if he pushes Jaime too far then there's the fear of Jaime putting the truth out there anyway; if he imprisons Jaime indefinitely, then it's just like leaving a bomb around that will end up going off later. He'd have to convince Jaime that telling the truth would be the equivalent of handing Cersei and their kids a death sentence and even then, Jaime seems deluded enough to think that he can fight just about anyone off to keep them all safe. Maybe Tyrion would be able to get through to Jaime. I agree about the similarity between Jaime and Tyrion. I thought of the show line too about Jaime not having his daddy around to protect him. Brilliant fighter or not, brilliant mind or not, Jaime and Tyrion don't always seem to appreciate the smooth sailing that they've had in life because they're Lannisters. Yes, Tyrion has suffered true hardship, but the hardship that he's suffered in comparison to the hardships suffered by the average dwarf is pretty minimal. It's like how Jon has it good even as a bastard. 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh July 19, 2016 Share July 19, 2016 Arya IV Arya and the outlaws keep hearing rumors that Lord Beric has been killed, but Tom and Lem know that these stories aren't true. In one burned out village they take shelter beneath a sept that has been burned and looted, and Arya is upset and angry to learn that northmen were responsible for desecrating the sept. Anguy allows Arya to practice shooting with his longbow and tells her that he'll make her a bow when they get to Riverrun if the castle has the right wood. Tom tells Anguy that they won't be at Riverrun long enough for him to make a bow for Arya and points out that Hoster Tully has a history of hanging outlaws. Tom also seems to have a few issues with Edmure Tully and says that anyone who doesn't like music can't be trusted. Lem says that Edmure has a problem with Tom as opposed to music in general, and Tom says it isn't his fault that Edmure once drank too much to have sex with some willing woman. Lem asks if Tom was the one who wrote the song about Edmure's drunken non encounter, and Tom claims that he only sang the song one time. Arya worries that Robb won't pay the ransom the outlaws will want for her and thinks about how kings are supposed to put the good of the realm before their sisters. She also wonders if her mother will want her back after all of the things she's done. They go to a place called High Heart where there are stumps of thirty one weirwoods trees. High Heart was sacred to the children of the forest and according to Tom, their magic still lingers there. Tom says that no harm can come to anyone who sleeps at High Heart and claims that ghosts of children of the forest haunt the place. Arya doesn't fear the idea of ghosts but still ends up feeling a little creeped out later that night. Arya overhears Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard listening to a tiny old woman talk about the dreams that she's had. “The old gods stir and will not let me sleep,” she heard the woman say. “I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?” Lem asks what good dreams are and asks the tiny woman if she's going to pay him for the dreams that he has. He says that he was dreaming of a tavern girl that he used to know and the old woman tells Lem that the girl he was dreaming about is dead. The tiny woman demands that Tom sing a song or leave, so Tom ends up singing her a sad sounding song that Arya doesn't know but thinks sounds vaguely familiar. Arya thinks about how Sansa would know the song and remembers how sweet her sister's voice used to sound. Tom knows that Arya saw the old dwarf woman and talks about how the woman seems to inexplicably know things about people. He tells Arya that the dwarf woman always asks him to play the same song every time he visits her. They go to Acorn Hall and Lady Smallwood takes one look at Arya's appearance and is aghast that Arya is wearing the sigil of House Bolton. Lady Smallwood has Arya cleaned up and put into a dress, and starts asking Arya about what she likes to do. Arya says that she likes to do needlepoint and Lady Smallwood tells Arya to remember, when she next does her needlework, that any act can be a prayer if it's done as well as a person is able. Lady Smallwood doesn't know who Arya is and thinks it's better if they keep it that way. She has a feeling that Arya is someone important and says it's better to be insignificant during times like this. She says that she doesn't have the men to keep them safe otherwise she'd be willing to keep Arya at Acorn Hall. When Gendry sees Arya all cleaned up, he laughs so hard that wine comes shooting out of his nostrils and Harwin has to give him a smack on the ear before he gains control of himself. Lady Smallwood gives the group confirmation that Jaime has escaped from Riverrun and when Arya realizes that Lord Karstark's men are after Jaime, she considers trying to slip away from the outlaws in order to seek the Karstarks out. She wonders if the Karstarks and Robb are still close and thinks they might be willing to take her to Riverrun. When Arya hears that her mother is said to be responsible for Jaime's escape, she thinks that it can't be true. The men and Lady Smallwood force Arya to leave so they can discuss what they've heard about Jaime's escape. Arya goes outside and meets up with Gendry, and he tells her that he used to see Thoros back in King's Landing because Thoros would need to get a new sword after every tourney. Gendry says that Thoros could outdrink Robert Baratheon and says that Thoros once told him that he and Robert were like peas in a pod in terms of gluttony. Arya briefly defends Robert when Gendry calls Robert a sot and thinks to herself that Robert may have been a drunk, but he was also her father's friend. Arya wishes that she had a flaming sword and thinks about all the people she'd like to use it on. She tells Gendry that he can still make swords if he wants to when they finally get to Riverrun and says he can start making swords for her brother Robb. Gendry comments on how different Arya looks now, and she replies that she looks like an oak tree. Gendry tells her she looks like a nice oak tree and tells her that she even smells nice for a change. Arya tells Gendry that he stinks, and they end up rolling around and wrestling on the ground together for awhile. By the time they're finished, they're both dirty, Arya's dress is torn, and she shouts at him that she bets she doesn't look so nice anymore. Harwin laughs at Arya and Gendry when they return to the hall and Lem warns Gendry to keep his hands off of Arya. Arya tells them that she started the fight, and Harwin says that Arya probably did start whatever occurred and says she was the same way back at Winterfell. Lady Smallwood gives Arya some more clothes including some breeches that belonged her son who died when he was seven. Arya feels a pang when she realizes that Lady Smallwood's son is dead. She apologizes for ripping the acorn dress and says that it was pretty. Lady Smallwood tells Arya that she's a pretty child and tells her to be brave. 1 Link to comment
benteen July 19, 2016 Share July 19, 2016 I liked the Lady Smallwood and Arya stuff a lot. It's a shame she was a minor character lost in the translation. Link to comment
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