The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[Avaleigh]

It's true that the show has impacted all future Hodor scenes for me. At this point I just want people to be as nice to him as possible until he has to hold the door. 

I can understand why they listen to Jojen but only to a point. He's certainly shown that he knows things and his dreams are significant but it's like you said, he doesn't do the best job at articulating the things he's seen and it's because his visions are never straightforward. 

I feel like Bloodraven could be more helpful than he's been so far. At least on the show, Bran got some direction from the three-eyed crow on where they should head. One touch of a weirwood and Bran suddenly knows where they need to go. Jojen tells Bran that he doesn't have time to be a summer child anymore--somebody needs to get that memo to Bloodraven so that he can give them some direction. 

[benteen]

Yeah, I look at those Hodor scenes in an entirely different light.

Speaking of Jojen, another thing to keep in mind is he meets a different fate on the show than he does in the books.  Bran's last chapter in A Dance with Dragons hinted at a particularly dark ending for Jojen.

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Speaking of Jojen, another thing to keep in mind is he meets a different fate on the show than he does in the books.  Bran's last chapter in A Dance with Dragons hinted at a particularly dark ending for Jojen.

Jojen's definitely dying in the books too, but I regard Jojen!paste as a crack theory. The weirwood paste evokes similar sensations as shade of the evening and the potions the FM gave Arya and as far as we know, there wasn't any blood magic involved with them.

[Avaleigh]

4 hours ago, benteen said:

Yeah, I look at those Hodor scenes in an entirely different light.

Speaking of Jojen, another thing to keep in mind is he meets a different fate on the show than he does in the books.  Bran's last chapter in A Dance with Dragons hinted at a particularly dark ending for Jojen.

I'm not sure why Bran's chapters gave me bad vibes with regard to Jojen since it's been years since I read it, but I definitely remember thinking that it wasn't looking good. Maybe he stopped saying 'This is not the day I die'? I can't recall. The weirwood paste made my skin crawl. 

As to weirwood paste and shade of the evening, we have no idea how either are made but I doubt it's just from freaking leaves. We've also seen how the children of the forest roll on the show and I don't think they're above using blood magic based on how the White Walkers were made. The warlocks, I feel like they'd be the most likely to use blood magic. I'll go so far as to say that if Drogon hadn't intervened in the House of the Undying that Dany might have been literally consumed by them. I'm still thinking about that freaky moment where one of them was licking her eye. The Faceless Men also seem like prime candidates for people who dabble in various kinds of magic so I wouldn't take blood magic off of the table.

[Avaleigh]

Davos II

Davos is sailing back to Dragonstone and is preoccupied with thoughts on Melisandre. He knows she'll be on Dragonstone and he no longer sees her as being loyal to Stannis.

She has broken him, as a man breaks a horse. She would ride him to power if she could, and for that she gave my sons to the fire. I will cut the living heart from her breast and see how it burns.

The captain who rescued Davos has treated him very kindly and even gives Davos the use of his own cabin. He's generous with his food too but it just makes Davos sick, so he feels ill and weakened from the journey.

Davos and the captain discuss a bit of the aftermath of the Battle of the Blackwater and Davos learns that a number of bannermen abandoned Stannis in the moment he needed them most. They also discuss the appearance of Renly's ghost and Davos thinks that he's seen too many weird things when he's been at sea to discount the notion that ghosts exist. Some men stayed loyal to Stannis including the Florents, and Lord Florent is currently acting as the King's Hand.

Once they arrive, Davos immediately notices that Dragonstone is very empty compared to how it was when he was last there. He asks to see Stannis and is told that no one goes to see the king. He's advised to see Salladhor Saan and when they meet, Salladhor greets Davos warmly and is happy to learn that he's alive. He comments on how the sea swallowed Davos up only to spit him out again, and this makes Davos think about what happened to Patchface. Davos wonders if he's gone mad like Patchface. 

Salladhor and Davos have a drink together and Salladhor talks about the money he is owed. They also go over the Battle of the Blackwater and Salladhor tells him that he's sorry about his sons, but comforts him with news that Devan is still alive and is said to have never left Stannis's side during the battle.  

Salladhor tries to tempt Davos back into smuggling but Davos insists that his duty is to his king. Salladhor tells Davos that he'll find that Stannis has changed and mentions that Stannis isn't willing to see anyone other than Melisandre. He won't even see Selyse or Shireen. He says the food that is brought to Stannis remains untouched and he's heard reports that Stannis and Melisandre go down to Dragonmont to watch the flames. Salladhor has heard that there are stairs that go right into the heart of the mountain and that there are places there where only Melisandre can walk without being burned.

Davos thinks that Melisandre is the one who sent the fire during the Battle of the Blackwater and feels she did it to retaliate when Stannis made the decision to leave her behind. Salladhor says that Davos isn't the only one to harbor that suspicion but advises Davos to not be so loud with his opinion since the queen's men are all over the place. Davos says that he has a knife to cut out Melisandre's heart and Salladhor tells him that he shouldn't say stuff like that not even if he's joking. 

Davos makes it clear that he isn't joking and wonders to himself if Melisandre can even be killed by mortal weapons. He thinks back to Maester Cressen's efforts and how she was able to survive the attempted poisoning. He also thinks about what the singers have to say about killing demons and is hopeful that they're correct in thinking that a knife in the heart should do the trick.

Salladhor again tells Davos that he shouldn't say such things and tells him that he should rest. He offers to have Davos stay on his ship but Davos decides to return to the castle so that he can see Devan. Salladhor warns Davos that Melisandre is in the castle and informs him that Melisandre and Selyse were burning men they claim were 'servants of the dark' including Lord Sunglass and the sons of Hubard Rambton. Salladhor warns Davos that they'll burn him too if he tries to kill Melisandre and it won't matter whether or not he succeeds or fails. 

Davos explains that he feels the Mother spared his life so that he might put an end to Melisandre and her brand of horror. He mentions the shadowbaby he saw her give birth to but doesn't give Salladhor the details. He also talks about how she killed Maester Cressen, Renly, and Cortnay Penrose and continues to blame her for the deaths of his sons. He says it's time for someone to kill her. Salladhor agrees that somebody should kill Melisandre, he just doesn't think that person should be Davos. 

Davos feels that Salladhor is making this harder for him and asks his friend to let him go for the sake of their friendship. Salladhor agrees but tells Davos that he isn't acting like a friend and paints the picture of how sad it will be for him when he ends up being the one who has to bring Davos's ashes back to Davos's wife who has already lost four sons. He seems angry with Davos and tells him that he's rushing to an early grave and only just after his life was spared. 

Davos doesn't want to leave Salladhor on such a sour note but Salladhor tells him to go if he wants, so Davos leaves. As he walks up to the gates of Dragonstone he again notices the lack of activity and sees how many houses are displaying signs of mourning.

When Davos tries to get through the gate, he's initially given the brush off and the guard on duty doesn't believe him when he gives his name. He tells Davos that the onion knight died on the river. Davos gives name after name and learns that most of the men who would know him appear to have died in the battle. He's finally allowed inside after the guard realizes he's probably telling the truth, and is escorted down to Aegon's Garden. Davos asks a sergeant if Stannis is aware of his return and is told to wait in the garden. Davos wonders why he's been brought there but his thoughts are interrupted when he sees Shireen running after Patchface. When Patchface sees Davos he stops abruptly and begins to sing.

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

Shireen continues to run after Patchface and the sight of the two of them playing makes Davos smile.

Another figure rushes out of a hedge and runs right into Davos. They're both knocked off of their feet and the boy tells Davos that he shouldn't get in his way when he's running. The boy helps Davos to his feet and asks if he should summon a maester since Davos isn't looking very well. 

The boy explains that he was playing monsters and maidens with his cousin and asks Davos his name. The boy doesn't think Davos looks much like a knight and when Davos tells him that he's the knight of onions, the boy reveals that he knows the story of Davos smuggling in food during the siege of Storm's End. He explains that Stannis is his uncle and introduces himself as Edric Storm. He adds that he's a son of King Robert. Davos can see the resemblance at once save the boy's ears which are typical of those from House Florent.

Edric asks if Davos knew his father and Davos says that he saw Robert at court but never spoke with him. Edric says that Robert taught him how to fight and came to see him almost every year. He says they even trained together sometimes and says that Robert gave him a warhammer on his last nameday.

Edric asks Davos if it's true that Stannis cut off his fingers and demands that Davos take off his glove so that he can see his hand. Edric doesn't think that Stannis should have cut off his fingers and says that Robert wouldn't have chopped off his fingers if the decision had been up to him. Davos thinks that Edric is like his father and his uncle Renly. The thought of this makes Davos anxious for some reason.

Edric is about to say something else when Ser Axell Florent comes into the garden leading a dozen guards. Davos recognizes that these are the queen's men and thinks about how Ser Axell has always treated him with courtesy.

Ser Axell is cold when he greets Davos and orders the guards to seize him. He tells the guards that Davos was planning to use the dirk he's carrying on their lady.

[benteen]

Good interaction between Davos and Salladhor.

I like Edirc. 

Oh, I wish the Ironborn would learn that the Drowned God seems to speak through a fool like Patchface.

This is the only scene with Davos and Shireen in it.  The Davos/Shireen friendship was a great thing on the show.

[Avaleigh]

Davos's chapters are great. I always look forward to them.

Show Salladhor and Davos are friendly but I feel like their book counterparts are better friends. Salladhor seems to genuinely care about Davos and I don't think it was just about him seeing Davos as someone who can help him earn money. He's a loyal guy who cares about his friend and I felt bad for him when he talked about how he'd be the one who'd have the wretched job of giving Marya her husband's ashes.

I like Edric too. It's one of the reasons I have no patience with Stannis for being such a douchebag of a guardian. Reading this made me wish that he could have been included on the show.

I will say though that I do see a touch of Renly's arrogance in Edric. Thankfully, Edric has good instincts and is a naturally good kid (his instinct to ask if Davos needs a maester because he looks like he isn't feeling well, saying that he didn't feel it was right for Davos to lose his fingers, playing the games his cousin Shireen wants to play even though it isn't his first choice, being anxious for affection from Robert and being happy with the small drops of attention his father would give him, etc). I expect he'll grow into a good man if he manages to live. 

The stuff that reminds me of Renly is the hint that he might be a little hung up on appearance, acts a little entitled, and demands information from Davos as though he thinks he's above him, etc. Saying that Davos should watch where he's going even though Edric was the one who ran into him. Still, I chalk most of these things up to him being a kid in addition to cutting him some slack for being in the awkward position of being a royal bastard. I like him and am glad Davos saved him.

As for Patchface, if he is some sort of spokesman for the Drowned God, I wonder why the Drowned God (or whatever it is that's speaking through Patchface) is telling Davos about the Red Wedding when he isn't connected to any of those people. What's the point in Patchface saying that apart from it being cool for the readers to notice on a second read that he's talking about the Red Wedding? 

I agree that the Davos/Shireen relationship on the show was sweet and was a good call from the showrunners.

Regarding Melisandre--

I thought it was interesting that she can apparently stand extreme heat. I was unclear about that because of the pain she felt during the whole Rattleshirt episode. I wonder if show Melisandre has thought of waking a stone dragon the way book Mel does.

I'd forgotten that Dragonstone has all of that dragonglass. I wonder if Davos will make a trip there to pick some up since they'll need it. Has the show mentioned that Dragonstone has all of that obsidian?

Stannis seems like a terrible husband. Not that Selyse is a great wife or person (she and Stannis both kind of suck) but at least she spends time with their daughter and is pulling her weight by holding court for him and keeping her family loyal for the most part.

[WearyTraveler]

Regarding prophecies and visions, and those "chosen" to see them, I feel like there's no one that gets the full picture, and, as Melisandre says in a later chapter, those who get the power to see what the gods show them, sometimes lack the tools/knowledge to interpret the visions correctly.  Take Jojen, for example, a kid who has pretty accurate dreams and even knows how to distinguish his green dreams (which will always come true, according to him) from other prophetic dreams. He saw Bran dead in a green dream, and said it couldn't be avoided, that Bran would die. It turns out that the miller's sons died but everyone thought they were Bran and Rickon.  So, his dream was true, only he didn't have enough information to understand what it meant when he dreamt it.

I think Patchface somehow gained the ability to glimpse things to which he was blind before, just as Bran learned to open his third eye.  It's as if this ability is somehow related to activating (for lack of a better word) a part of your brain (or a set of genes) that is dormant.  I think not everyone has the ability to do that.  Patchface's drowning experience somehow activated that part of his brain, but at the same time left him lacking in other departments.  I don't think any god chose him, it just happened.

Edited June 8, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[nodorothyparker]

It's interesting to learn here that Dragonstone is basically an active volcano with the mentions of "fire" inside and ringed in smoke.  That explains where all the obsidian we're told is on Dragonstone comes from and it makes me wonder if that's ever going to come into play down the road.

I like Salladhor.  I enjoy his obviously longterm friendship with Davos and the distinctive way he talks.   He seems genuinely happy to see Davos and shows real concern not only for his well being but that he may go off half cocked and get himself killed in trying to take out Mel.  While I enjoy the Davos-Stannis relationship a lot, it's generally hard to get a read on how much Stannis truly appreciates him as a person and not just how he can serve him, so it's nice to see that someone does.

The bits here with Davos holding out hope that maybe his sons made it back somehow only to not see their ships there are sad, as is his naming off people to get someone to let him into castle only to be told that they all died at the Blackwater.

In Edric Storm, we get another indication that Robert was a better father to his bastards than his supposed trueborn children.  Patchface has always creeped me out a little.

[kittykat]

Woohoo.  I'm caught up.  Now I can join in.

I agree about Robert being a better father to his bastards.  We get an indication of this in AGOT with Mya Stone and little Barra (poor Barra).  And it appears he was a good father to Edric.  

I enjoyed the exchange with him and Salladhor.  Poor Davos, he really is broken up about the loss of his four sons and has a bit of reprieve when he learns Devan is alive.  It is rather interesting that he's seeing all this as a religious awakening and despite working with forces that insist on following the Lord of Light, he is only reinforcing his faith in the seven.  Of course he attempts to resort to extremism by plotting to kill Mel.  

And Patchface's song is definitely RW foreshadowing.  The only way I can see the Drowned God's involvement is that Robb was appealing to the Freys to return North and face the Ironborn.  But I think it was just another clever ploy to hint that something was coming like Dany's vision in the Palace of Dust or Jon's conversation with Mance about the guest right.

I forgot how quickly things get rolling in this book on all fronts.  I like how in the first three books that GRRM was willing to let a character disappear for a few hundred pages then spend or page or two catching us up on what they've been up to instead of adding two or three pointless travelogue chapters.  It also helps that we still have a reasonably small number of POVs that still capture all the action (Cat, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Davos as returning; Jaime and Sam are the only new POVs). 

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

In Edric Storm, we get another indication that Robert was a better father to his bastards than his supposed trueborn children.  

I wouldn't say that. It doesn't seem like he actually had much, if any, personal contact with Edric. Sending him nameday gifts was really only the bare minimum he could do. We know he abandoned Mya after he stopped living in the Vale and he never even met Gendry, Barra, or any of his 13 other children. After acknowledging Edric's very public conception with Selyse's cousin, he couldn't really have been a total deadbeat to him even if he'd wanted. 1/16 and that 1 being a doubly highborn bastard hard to ignore is a pretty bad record imo. Joffrey didn't have Robert's affection but I'm sure he spent more time with him than Edric or Mya ever did. I'd also bet none of his gifts to Edric compared to Joff or Tommen's nameday gifts, or to Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa, and he probably got along well enough with Tommen and Myrcella without being all that involved with them. I think Ned was actually a more reliable judge of Robert in this area than Cersei, since Ned actually met some of Robert's kids. And Ned regarded Robert as a breaker of promises regarding his babymamas.

 

16 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Regarding Melisandre--

I thought it was interesting that she can apparently stand extreme heat. I was unclear about that because of the pain she felt during the whole Rattleshirt episode. I wonder if show Melisandre has thought of waking a stone dragon the way book Mel does.

I'd forgotten that Dragonstone has all of that dragonglass. I wonder if Davos will make a trip there to pick some up since they'll need it. Has the show mentioned that Dragonstone has all of that obsidian?

IIRC, I think it may have been the glamour that was causing her pain because it was harder to keep up the illusion with Rattleshirt being burned alive.

Yes, Stannis mentioned obsidian on Dragonstone when he met Sam in s5.

[Avaleigh]

I got the impression that Edric was trying to talk his relationship with Robert up. (Also, am I making this up or was Varys actually the one responsible for sending Edric gifts on his nameday?) He can hardly have been happy about only seeing his father once a year. I also thought he was probably exaggerating when he said they trained together. Robert seems like he stopped training awhile ago. 

Hmm, Sam know where they can get a shitload of obsidian. That has to come up again, I imagine even though he's on the wrong coast. Right now Sam and Davos are the best candidates for going to Dragonstone to get some. I can definitely see Dany heading to her ancestral home but I wonder if she'll think to bring a bunch of dragonglass with her.

[nodorothyparker]

Edric mentions that Robert taught him how to fight and that they spent time training together.  He's definitely doing a little bragging here about how Robert came to see him and sent a nameday present every single year.  How much of it's true and how much of it is wishful thinking, we have no way of knowing. I don't get the sense that Robert's really been training for awhile either.  But they live under a system where boys are usually fostered out at a certain age and may not see much of their parents anyway, so as a bastard who would have had no expectation of a full time dad maybe it does feel adequate to him.  

None of it makes Robert father of the year, of course.  But other than the story we get in one of these books (blanking now on which) about Joffrey cutting up a cat and Robert knocking his teeth out, there's really nothing to suggest that Robert ever took any real interest in Joffrey.  We don't know for sure that he didn't, of course.  But I've always taken that scene in the first book where Robert's whining about his life to Ned about how he'd disappear into the east as a sellsword if it wouldn't mean leaving Joffrey as king under Cersei's thumb but hasn't done a single thing about the situation as evidence of how truly checked out and noninvolved Robert was where the kids were concerned.  He knew his heir was a sadistic little shit likely to be a terrible king and still couldn't be bothered to do anything about it except complain.

Right now I'm rooting so hard for show Dany to be eaten by the dragons that it's hard for me to remember that she wouldn't have any idea why dragonglass is significant.  Davos certainly knows where it is but I don't think he knows why it's important either.

[benteen]

I can't remember who said it but it's mentioned in the books (maybe this one) that Edric would write Robert thanking him for his nameday gifts and Robert would laugh and ask Varys what he got Edric this year.  It's another example of Robert being a bad father but on a whole, he does seem slightly better with his bastards than his "legitimate children."  He seems to have been fond of Mya when she was growing up and even brought up the possibility of bringing her to King's Landing before Cersei made a threat.

He took little interest in Joffrey.  Did he even pay any attention to Tommen and Myrcella at all?

[Avaleigh]

Jaime, Brienne, and Cleos stop at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. The inn got its name because it stands on the spot where the last King in the North made the decision to kneel before Aegon the Conqueror.

The inn is currently being inhabited by a couple and an orphaned boy that they've taken in. The new man who is running the inn explains that the original innkeeper was killed along with his women, but he doesn't know for sure who's responsible and guesses that it was either the work of the Lannisters or Starks. 

As they eat and drink the man starts talking about the latest news and advises them to stay away from the kingsroad because not only are there Starks and Lannisters to worry about, but there are also outlaws who are preying on anyone they come across. He also mentions Beric Dondarrion and says that he's earned the nickname of the lightning lord because of how suddenly he strikes. He says it's rumored that Beric can't die.

Thoros of Myr is still riding with Beric, and the new innkeeper says that he's heard that Thoros has strange powers. Jaime thinks Thoros had the power to match Robert when it came to booze, but that's about it. He remembers a time when Thoros once told Robert that he became a red priest because the red robes do a good job of hiding wines spills.

After talking more with the innkeeper, they decide that continuing to travel on the Trident won't be their safest course. Brienne overpays for three horses and food and throws their skiff into the bargain. The innkeeper tries to persuade them to stay the night but Brienne wants to press on. She breaks the chains on Jaime's ankles so that he can ride, and the innkeeper gives them some more advice on which roads to take.

When they reach a burned village, they have to decide which road to take and Jaime is pleased when Brienne chooses the same road that Jaime would have picked had he been given the choice. Cleos points out that Brienne has chosen the road the innkeeper warned them against and Brienne explains that she thinks the innkeeper might have been trying to lure them into a trap. Jaime decides that Brienne isn't completely stupid and grudgingly gives her a smile. 

Half of the night passes before Brienne finally allows them to stop to sleep. Brienne agrees to take the first watch and Cleos soon goes to sleep. Jaime thinks about Cersei and Tyrion and wonders what they're up to. He asks Brienne if she has any siblings and Brienne nearly says that she was her father's only son instead of only child. This amuses Jaime and he thinks that Brienne reminds him of Tyrion for some reason. He asks Brienne to forgive him for offending her and she replies that his crimes are past forgiving. She addresses him as Kingslayer and Jaime asks what he's done to her that makes her so enraged with him. Brienne talks about how Jaime has harmed the weak, innocent, and those he was sworn to protect and Jaime understands that she's talking about Aerys. He addresses her as wench and tells her not to judge a situation that she doesn't understand. 

When Brienne tries to tell Jaime her name again, he cuts her off and tells her that she's just as tedious as she is unattractive. Brienne says that she won't be provoked to anger and asks him why he bothered to join the Kingsguard if he meant to betray all it stands for. Jaime wonders what he can say to make Brienne possibly understand and explains that he was fifteen and it was a huge honor. Brienne is scornful and says that isn't an answer. Jaime thinks to himself that Brienne won't like hearing the truth that it was love that drove him to become a member of the Kingsguard. 

He thinks back to when Tywin had Cersei summoned to court when she was twelve in the hope that he might be able to make a royal marriage for her. Jaime thinks that Tywin was either waiting for Viserys to mature or was hoping thay Elia would die in childbirth. 

While Tywin and Cersei were at court, Jaime was a squire for Sumner Crakehall and when he was leaving Crakehall for Casterly Rock, he decided to stop by King's Landing to visit with his twin. During the visit, Cersei tells Jaime that Tywin wants to have him married to Lysa Tully and Hoster Tully is planning on coming to King's Landing in order to discuss the dowry. 

Cersei suggests that Jaime join the Kingsguard now that there's a vacancy and that way Jaime will always be able to be near her. Jaime knows that their father will never consent but Cersei says that Tywin won't be able to object once the deed is done. Jaime briefly brings up being heir to Casterly Rock, but Cersei asks him if it's the Rock he wants or her. They sneak away to an inn and have sex all night and by morning, Jaime feels that giving up Casterly Rock is a small price to pay if he'll always be able to be near his sister.

The plan was successful in terms of freeing Jaime from a marriage to Lysa but otherwise the plan he and Cersei had to stay together didn't work out. Tywin was beyond furious when he found out and resigned as Hand of the King. He brought Cersei with him back to Casterly Rock and Jaime was suddenly alone in King's Landing guarding a mad king. 

Brienne is still waiting for Jaime's answer, and Jaime tells her that she didn't know Aerys Targaryen. Brienne doesn't accept Aerys's madness and cruelty as an excuse and Jaime starts to antagonize her by saying that she's a kingslayer too based on what he's heard. When Brienne starts explaining that a shadow killed Renly, Jaime laughs and says that he should have tried using that line when he was found over Aerys's dead body. 

Jaime needles Brienne by guessing at reasons she might have to kill Renly, and he's hoping that she'll step close enough to him in her anger so that he'll be able to grab her dagger and stab her in the gut. Instead of stepping closer, Brienne looks at Jaime and tells him that being a knight is a gift. She says that being a knight of the Kingsguard is the greatest honor of all for a knight and Jaime completely soiled the gift that he was given. 

Jaime understands Brienne wants the gift of being a knight and tells her that he earned his knighthood. He won his first tourney melee when he was just thirteen and was knighted at fifteen by Ser Arthur Dayne after riding with him against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Jaime says it was the white cloak that soiled him and not the other way around. Brienne gives Jaime a look of pure loathing and stalks away. 

Jaime goes to sleep and hopes to dream of Cersei, but ends up dreaming about the day he killed Aerys. He remembers how he was dressed in his golden armor rather than his white and thinks about how no one seems to remember that detail.

Jaime dreams about how Aerys demanded to have Tywin's head and threatened to have Jaime burned with the others if he failed to comply. Aerys sees blood on Jaime's sword and when Jaime tells him that the blood is Lord Rossart's, Aerys final Hand of the King, Aerys's eyes get all wide, he shits himself, and decides to run for the Iron Throne. Jaime grabbed Aerys and he squealed and slashed his throat. Jaime remembers Rossart putting up more of a fight than the king and thinks about how nobody really cared who was responsible for Rossart's death.

Ser Elys Westerling and Lord Crakehall are among those who came in towards the end before Jaime could disappear and have another take credit for the deed. They tell him that they've taken the city and castle and Crakehall asks if they should proclaim a new king. Jaime understands that Crakehall is asking who the king should be: Tywin, Robert, or possibly a new dragonking. Jaime thinks about how he was tempted and thinks about how pissed Robert and Ned likely would have been. He looks at Aerys's dead body though and decides to tell Crakehall that he can proclaim whomever he likes. He then climbs the steps up to the Iron Throne and sits down to wait and see who will come to claim the kingdom. Ned Stark is the one who ends up coming and Jaime thinks about how Ned had no right to judge him.

In his dreams the dead came burning, gowned in swirling green flames. Jaime danced around them with a golden sword, but for every one he struck down two more arose to take his place.

Brienne wakes him up with a kick in the ribs and they're back in the saddle before the sun is up.

[Avaleigh]

I really enjoyed this chapter. 

I'm fascinated by the development of the relationship between Jaime and Brienne. In just two chapters I feel like GRRM established such a fascinating dynamic. The only thing that would fascinat9e me more would be if the Hound could somehow weigh in on the conversations they're having about honor and knighthood. 

Brienne talking about how being a knight is a gift is an interesting way of looking at it. I liked Jaime clarifying that it took work and talent and he very much earned his knighthood as opposed to it simply being handed to him. Also, Brienne being dismissive of the type of man Aerys was made me feel like she still very much sees things in black and white and it isn't until interacting with Jaime that her feelings about vows and honor become a lot more complex.

I also like how Jaime is changing his opinion on Brienne bit by bit. He sees that she's actually pretty sharp and seems to already prefer chatting with her than with his cousin.

I was amused when Jaime laughed at Brienne's story about how Renly was killed by a shadow. She and Catelyn really need to consider changing their story to something more like, 'Stannis killed Renly, we saw his face. He did it with help from the red woman.' There's no point in getting into the explanation of the shadow. 

I have to say, I don't know how Brienne is able to sleep at all considering the fact that Cleos doesn't exactly have massive incentive to stay loyal unless there's something I'm forgetting. You'd think that every sound, every rustle of leaves, would disturb her. 

I definitely forgot the detail of Aerys shitting himself before he died. He and Tywin have something in common. Curious too that Aerys ran for the throne as though that would somehow save him. You'd think he'd have yelled in vain for a guard or something.

Was Tywin really still hopeful that Cersei might be able to marry into the Targaryen family? Did he really consider Viserys? That would have been even more of an age difference than Margaery and Tommen. Also, Jaime's thought about how he might have been hoping for Elia's death in childbirth--I thought Aerys already made it plain to Tywin that he didn't want his son married to the daughter of one of his so called servants. 

I wonder what Tywin thought Jaime's motivation was and how that conversation went.

Jaime may have epically fucked up by joining the Kingsguard but he certainly dodged a bullet by not ending up with Lysa. 

Regarding Cersei, she just didn't want to let Jaime go. She always wants him near her but if it had been up to her she would have had Rhaegar's children. She was selfish even then. The phrasing seemed very deliberate and it's repeated. The plan was to keep Jaime near her almost like a pet.

I wonder what Robert and Ned would have done if Tywin had decided to take the throne. They probably wouldn't have taken it well at all but oddly enough, if they were fine with it, I think this would have been the better option for everyone assuming those are our choices. Robert would have been better off not being king and clearly wasn't suited for it. Ned would never have been made Hand and could have died in the North where he felt he belonged and didn't want to leave. Tywin would likely have been a more competent king than Robert who wouldn't have gotten the realm into massive debt. Stannis wouldn't have been resentful over not being made Hand or being given Dragonstone. 

[Lady S.]

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Edric mentions that Robert taught him how to fight and that they spent time training together.  He's definitely doing a little bragging here about how Robert came to see him and sent a nameday present every single year.  How much of it's true and how much of it is wishful thinking, we have no way of knowing. I don't get the sense that Robert's really been training for awhile either.  But they live under a system where boys are usually fostered out at a certain age and may not see much of their parents anyway, so as a bastard who would have had no expectation of a full time dad maybe it does feel adequate to him.  

Yeah, Edric's life was probably better than most bastards, but that was part of my point. His half-siblings have no real relationship with Robert or any privileges from their royal blood. Mya has only vague memories of Robert and I remember Sansa thinking, in regards to Mya's boyfriend marrying someone else, that perhaps things would have been different if her father still took an interest and could provide a dowry. Mya and Edric were both safer than his King's Landing kids. If baby Barra had been fostered out like Edric, she might still be alive, but Edric only got special treatment because his mother was a Florent. So I just think it's unfair to those 15 other kids to say Edric's upbringing meant Robert cared more about them than he did about Tommen or Myrcella. Littlefinger even told Ned that Robert looked the other way when Cersei had the twins he fathered at Casterly Rock murdered and their mother sold into slavery, though admittedly Baelish is not the most reliable source either. We don't know what Tommen's or Myrcella's relationship with him was like but they definitely had more than yearly contact with him and I see no reason to think he ever knocked their teeth out like he did to Joffrey. IA that he's still responsible for not doing something about Cersei and Joffrey or doing something better than smacking Joffrey, but I also think Cersei discouraged an active relationship after the cat incident, so it was really another instance of his letting the Lannisters have their way than just general neglect. If Joffrey had been a different sort of son, I doubt Robert would show any preference for Edric over his heir.

 

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I definitely forgot the detail of Aerys shitting himself before he died. He and Tywin have something in common. Curious too that Aerys ran for the throne as though that would somehow save him. You'd think he'd have yelled in vain for a guard or something.

Was Tywin really still hopeful that Cersei might be able to marry into the Targaryen family? Did he really consider Viserys? That would have been even more of an age difference than Margaery and Tommen. Also, Jaime's thought about how he might have been hoping for Elia's death in childbirth--I thought Aerys already made it plain to Tywin that he didn't want his son married to the daughter of one of his so called servants. 

Aerys shitting himself is my favorite part of that story.

Tywin was still hopeful that Jaime would inherit Casterly Rock even before Jaime's behanding gave him an excuse to leave the Kingsguard, so I have no doubt about him still being set on a royal marriage for Cersei. Why else bring her to court and deny every other marriage offer? If Elia had died, the pickings for other royal brides would still be very slim. Noteworthy that Jaime joined the Kingsguard expecting her to marry Viserys or Rhaegar. I doubt he ever intended on a life of celibacy in Kingsguard just to be near Cersei. When she asked him to choose her over Casterly Rock, I doubt he thought the deal was his whole life for that one night, no matter how good in the sack she was that night. She just wouldn't have avoided having her husband's babies the way she did with Robert.

I liked Jaime having sympathy for Brienne because he was reminded of Tyrion better than on the show where his respect for her seemed to be based on seeing her fight. Jaime and Brienne also both seem smarter on the page, working out the outlaws' trap. Brienne's focus on Aerys being an annointed king feels a bit at odds with her loyalty to a rebel pretender.

Also liked Jaime getting angry thinking of Stannis endangering his family in King's Landing and thinking that Thoros's greatest power was matching Robert's drinking.

[benteen]

I really liked the Jaime and Brienne interaction.  This chapter in particular showed how complex the Jaime character was and they absolutely nailed this storyline during Season 3 of the show.

Brienne waking Jaime up with a kick to the ribs made me laugh.

Aerys shitting himself is a great detail.  I'm glad that after all he did, he knew fear right before he died.  Ned's not a vindictive man but I do wonder if it ever bothered him that he didn't get to kill Aerys himself.  It's not a Ned thing to dwell on something like that but still...

I liked the detail as well that Rossart actually put up more of a fight.

Quote

I wonder what Robert and Ned would have done if Tywin had decided to take the throne. They probably wouldn't have taken it well at all but oddly enough, if they were fine with it, I think this would have been the better option for everyone assuming those are our choices. Robert would have been better off not being king and clearly wasn't suited for it. Ned would never have been made Hand and could have died in the North where he felt he belonged and didn't want to leave. Tywin would likely have been a more competent king than Robert who wouldn't have gotten the realm into massive debt. Stannis wouldn't have been resentful over not being made Hand or being given Dragonstone.

That would have been an interesting scenario.  I don't know if Robert's ego would have taken it.  If so, Robert would have gone on to be a lousy Lord of the Stormlands instead of being a lousy king.  He already was...he was Lord of the Stormlands when he was 20-something and still hanging out in the Vale when the war began.  That kind of behavior fits Robert.

Renly would have been left out in the cold in this scenario as he would have been a third son without being Lord of Storm's End.  Maybe he could have joined the Night's Watch with Donal Noye.

[nodorothyparker]

I love this chapter a lot.  Brienne and Jaime are such a fascinating case of the before and after of idealism and all the romanticizing of honor and vows that comes with the traditional notions of knighthood.  Brienne does see things in pretty black and white terms as with her sticking to the letter of the vow to protect Aerys, but she's also what? 18 here and Jaime is in his 30s. Robert's Rebellion and the Mad King are mostly stories from a lifetime ago to her and now here she is face to face with someone who didn't come off particularly well in those stories.  I also get the sense that no one's really troubled to ask Jaime why about much of any of this before from the way he's struggling to put it in terms he thinks she'll be able to understand.  It's interesting to me that it even seems to matter to him to try considering that he's still periodically thinking about killing her and escaping if he gets an opening.

I like the brief Brienne-Tyrion comparison he makes.  Both are characters who are dismissed and ridiculed a lot because their appearances and struggle to be taken seriously despite having pretty good instincts and a lot to offer.  Jaime recognizing that is another big clue to his character beyond the spoiled rich asshole persona he mostly had in the first two books.

This chapter again reminds me why it's not really a good idea for teenagers to be allowed to swear their lives away, whether it be for the Nights Watch or the Kingsguard.  I think we're meant to see Jaime doing exactly that as yet another example of his impulsiveness and not really thinking longterm up to this point.  Because what 15-year-old isn't going to agree to pretty much anything for a night of sex with the girl he thinks he's in love with?  I seriously doubt too that he really saw it playing out this way where a decade and some change later he's been stuck mostly playing guard duty over a drunken dissolute with nothing to show for it.  It certainly never occurred to him to ask what happened if Tywin's schemes to make a royal marriage for Cersei fell through and she ended up married off to some far-flung lord elsewhere.  What if she had gotten into a marriage where she was happy enough to not continue the relationship with him?

Brienne really does need to come up with a better story about how Renly died than "killed by a shadow."  I mean, we saw it and it still sounds ridiculous.  "Black magic from Stannis' red witch" still might not be enough for people like Loras who do know she was in the tent but given that we've previously been told that people are hearing that Stannis is mixed up in a foreign religion, it would probably go over better. I do love Jaime's snark that Thoros' main power had been matching Robert drink for drink.

Edited June 9, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

I really liked the Jaime and Brienne interaction.  This chapter in particular showed how complex the Jaime character was and they absolutely nailed this storyline during Season 3 of the show.

Brienne waking Jaime up with a kick to the ribs made me laugh.

Aerys shitting himself is a great detail.  I'm glad that after all he did, he knew fear right before he died.  Ned's not a vindictive man but I do wonder if it ever bothered him that he didn't get to kill Aerys himself.  It's not a Ned thing to dwell on something like that but still...

I liked the detail as well that Rossart actually put up more of a fight.

That would have been an interesting scenario.  I don't know if Robert's ego would have taken it.  If so, Robert would have gone on to be a lousy Lord of the Stormlands instead of being a lousy king.  He already was...he was Lord of the Stormlands when he was 20-something and still hanging out in the Vale when the war began.  That kind of behavior fits Robert.

Renly would have been left out in the cold in this scenario as he would have been a third son without being Lord of Storm's End.  Maybe he could have joined the Night's Watch with Donal Noye.

I was amused by Jaime's observation that Rossart fought 'like an alchemist'. He's basically saying that he fought like a nerd.

I also liked Jaime's advice to that kid to take up a different weapon than a crossbow.

I agree that it's great that Aerys had a taste of fear before he died considering everything he'd done.

Regarding Robert, I imagine he would have been something of an absentee lord and Stannis would have filled in. Under this fantasy scenario I'm imagining Loras and Renly on the Kingsguard together although of course that would be too cute and perfect. 

If Tywin had been king he would likely have been better off remarrying. I wonder who would have been the lucky bride in that scenario. Not I can't think of any available options from the great houses. 

As for how Jaime/Lysa would have worked out, what interests me about that is if that would have terminated her relationship with Littlefinger. While I don't think that Lysa would have gotten Jaime over Cersei, I do think that there's a chance she might have been happier with him than with Jon Arryn since she comes across as fairly shallow. 

I can't remember if Jaime gave Cersei the details about killing Aerys.

[nodorothyparker]

If he did, it's never mentioned.  And Cersei being Cersei it's entirely possible she never cared enough to ask.

There's a great sense in both Jaime's talk with Catelyn in the last book and in his confessions to Brienne in this one of him unburdening himself.  Like spending all that time in one cell and then another has made him reflective.  Losing his sword hand makes him more reflective still.

Tywin and Cersei never really offer any hint that they know anything or think anything about his status as kingslayer.  We get from Tyrion's chapters in COK that he doesn't seem to know any more about the sack of Kings Landing than the common histories, even expressing his annoyance at one point that someone killed Aerys' pyromancers so there's no record of where all the wildfire is.

Edited June 10, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Jazzy24]

9 hours ago, benteen said:

 

Aerys shitting himself is a great detail.  I'm glad that after all he did, he knew fear right before he died.  Ned's not a vindictive man but I do wonder if it ever bothered him that he didn't get to kill Aerys himself.  It's not a Ned thing to dwell on something like that but still...

It's very telling that we never read about Ned being vindictive or hateful towards the Targaryens in anyway. So many characters are bitter about such petty things and have held on to that bitterness for years we see that in the books. But Ned who have a justifiable reason to be angry and bitter because of the inhumane way his brother and father died and possibly the way his sister was treated never shows such hatred like so many. 

I don't think Ned was angry about not getting to kill Aerys. I think once he saw Jaime sitting on the throne and than Elia and her children dead I think he was vindictive towards the Lannisters and that never went away. 

[WearyTraveler]

17 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I definitely forgot the detail of Aerys shitting himself before he died. He and Tywin have something in common. Curious too that Aerys ran for the throne as though that would somehow save him. You'd think he'd have yelled in vain for a guard or something.

Well, a few chapters ahead, Tywin leaves the throne room through what they call in the books "the King's door" which is right behind the Iron Throne.  So, I suppose Aerys was trying to escape and that was the door closest to him.

But it is funny (and telling) that Aerys would run.  One would think that after hundreds of years of ruling, the Targs had the whole training thing down pat and that Aerys would have been taught how to fight from a very young age by their Master of Arms.  Yet he runs away from Jaimie.  To be fair, we don't know if he had a sword with him (Joffrey did carry his in the throne room when he wanted, so , it's not unheard off).

Edited June 9, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

As for how Jaime/Lysa would have worked out, what interests me about that is if that would have terminated her relationship with Littlefinger. While I don't think that Lysa would have gotten Jaime over Cersei, I do think that there's a chance she might have been happier with him than with Jon Arryn since she comes across as fairly shallow. 

Even married to a guy old enough to be her grandfather, Lysa was apparently pretty happy when she thought she and Cat were both pregnant at the same time. So, with a handsome guy her own age and no fertility issues, I do think she could have gotten over Littlefinger and not become so unhinged. Cersei would have been the big problem there. Even if Jaime and Cersei were both married and living separately, she'd still be selfishly possessive of him. But it could still do Jaime good to have a life away from her and a family with another woman. I wonder how a Jaime/Catelyn match would have gone since he had Brandon's passion with a sense of honor closer to Ned's.

I also think that in addition to preventing him marrying another girl, Cersei probably enjoyed the thought of Jaime giving up his claim to Casterly Rock. She was the elder twin and would have been the heir if not for her gender, so I'm sure that was something else that ate at her about the different treatment Jaime received because he was a boy. She thought they should both be allowed to dress the same and learn to fight, but she might have felt Casterly Rock should have been uniquely hers as the firstborn. She's always thinking of herself as Tywin's true heir.

11 hours ago, benteen said:

That would have been an interesting scenario.  I don't know if Robert's ego would have taken it.  If so, Robert would have gone on to be a lousy Lord of the Stormlands instead of being a lousy king.  He already was...he was Lord of the Stormlands when he was 20-something and still hanging out in the Vale when the war began.  That kind of behavior fits Robert.

Renly would have been left out in the cold in this scenario as he would have been a third son without being Lord of Storm's End.  Maybe he could have joined the Night's Watch with Donal Noye.

Robert's ego wouldn't have been the only obstacle. Why would Jon Arryn or Hoster Tully or any other great lord accept Tywin on the throne? Not only did he not have Robert's Targ blood, he didn't even win the throne by conquest truly. He sat out most of the war, tricked the Mad King into opening his gates and attacked a city unprepared to defend itself. The other lords could get a bigger army and take King's Landing again if they wanted to. If just anyone could take the throne without even any pretense of legitimacy then Mace Tyrell could have just crowned himself instead of ever bothering with Renly. Maybe a scenario of Tywin back as Hand for baby Aegon would have worked better than Jon Arryn as Hand for Robert but Tywin had other plans for Rhaegar's children and didn't even insist on a seat on Robert's council for himself.

[benteen]

6 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I was amused by Jaime's observation that Rossart fought 'like an alchemist'. He's basically saying that he fought like a nerd.

I also liked Jaime's advice to that kid to take up a different weapon than a crossbow.

I agree that it's great that Aerys had a taste of fear before he died considering everything he'd done.

Regarding Robert, I imagine he would have been something of an absentee lord and Stannis would have filled in. Under this fantasy scenario I'm imagining Loras and Renly on the Kingsguard together although of course that would be too cute and perfect. 

If Tywin had been king he would likely have been better off remarrying. I wonder who would have been the lucky bride in that scenario. Not I can't think of any available options from the great houses. 

As for how Jaime/Lysa would have worked out, what interests me about that is if that would have terminated her relationship with Littlefinger. While I don't think that Lysa would have gotten Jaime over Cersei, I do think that there's a chance she might have been happier with him than with Jon Arryn since she comes across as fairly shallow. 

I can't remember if Jaime gave Cersei the details about killing Aerys.

I think too Aerys was shocked beyond belief that a member of his Kingsguard actually turned against him as well.  That kind of thing just didn't happen.  When he realized what Jaime was going to do, it was shitting time for him.

Renly in the Kingsguard with Loras, I can see that too.

Hmmm...that's a tough one figuring out who would have been Tywin's bride.  Maybe the Redwyne daughter that the Blackfish refused?  Though I think she was married to someone else.

I always thought that Tywin never got married again because he loved his wife so much.  But I've wondered more and more if he wasn't terrified over the idea that if he had another dwarf son with a dwarf woman, he would be mocked throughout the Realm.  If of course A+J doesn't equal T.

Tywin also married a cousin in Joanna so it's also possible that he feels that no one but a Lannister is good enough for him.

You're right about Littlefinger.  With a Jaime/Lysa marriage, he probably would have had to come up with a new way to raise himself up.

[Jazzy24]

6 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Well, a few chapters ahead, Tywin leaves the throne room through what they call in the books "the King's door" which is right behind the Iron Throne.  So, I suppose Aerys was trying to escape and that was the door closest to him.

But it is funny (and telling) that Aerys would run.  One would think that after hundreds of years of ruling, the Targs had the whole training thing down pat and that Aerys would have been taught how to fight from a very young age by their Master of Arms.  Yet he runs away from Jaimie.  To be fair, we don't know if he had a sword with him (Joffrey did carry his in the throne room when he wanted, so , it's not unheard off).

It was said that Aerys was so paranoid that he didn't allow any swords in his presence except those of the Kingsguard. I think Aerys wouldn't even touch a sharp object, he wouldn't even get his hair cut or his fingernails. 

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion II

Varys returns to his chambers to find Tyrion there waiting for him. Tyrion admits that he did a little snooping while he waited and comments on how humble and sparse the eunuch's room is. Varys doesn't keep any papers, his bed is rock hard, and he only keeps water to drink. 

Varys confirms that Grand Maester Pycelle will be restored to the small council and says that it was the Citadel that ultimately chose to keep him in place after some behind the scenes interference from Varys and Tywin. The Citadel had been on the verge of sending a maester of Highgarden to take Pycelle's place but Varys informed Tywin before the decision was finalized, so Pycelle lucked out and was able to be restored to his position. Tyrion is impressed that Varys has little birds in the Citadel but isn't happy that Pycelle isn't still in his black cell.

Tyrion learns that Boros Blount is being restored to his old post as well. Tyrion knows that Blount is a coward but likes the fact that this will irritate Cersei since she's the one who had him stripped of his white cloak in the first place.

Tyrion turns the discussion to Mandon Moore and Varys gives a few details about Moore's life. He was from the Vale, he appears to have been friendless, and even the members of the Kingsguard weren't fond of him. Tyrion thinks about how it must have been Cersei who put Moore up to killing him but is still struggling to find proof. He wonders if Varys knows more than he's saying about Moore and the assassination attempt.

Tyrion wants Varys to help him see Shae one last time before he's forced to send her away. Tyrion's seen her around the castle but hasn't spoken to her because he knows he's being watched.

Varys lets Tyrion know that the Kettleblacks are among those who report to Cersei now, and Tyrion wonders if more gold would be able to win the brothers back to his side. Varys says it's unlikely that Tyrion will be able to get them back since Cersei has already rewarded them with knighthoods and promises the brothers further advancement. Varys adds that Cersei has been suggestive enough with Osmund Kettleblack that the guy is under the impression that he'll be permitted to have sex with her eventually. Tyrion immediately wonders if he might be able to arrange it so that Tywin catches Cersei in bed with Osmund.

As for the others who are spying on Tyrion, the sons of Janos Slynt are just waiting for Tyrion to slip up so that they can avenge their father. Varys warns Tyrion not to visit any brothels since Tywin would immediately hear about it via Littlefinger. Varys also admits that Tywin has Varys himself spying on Tyrion but this news only makes Tyrion laugh.

The meeting with Shae will take place in Varys's room and Tyrion gets all dressed up before he realizes that wearing his best clothes just to see Varys will bring him exactly the sort of attention that he doesn't want. Tyrion runs into Loras Tyrell on his way to see Shae and asks Loras why he would choose to join the Kingsguard at the age of seventeen. Loras explains that since he's the youngest son it isn't necessary for him to marry and have children. When Tyrion asks about love, Loras replies, "When the sun has set, no candle can replace it." Tyrion smiles and says that it's obvious that Loras is seventeen after all. Loras wonders if Tyrion is making fun of him but Tyrion says that he isn't and admits that he was in love once too.

Once Tyrion is in Varys's room with Shae, Varys leaves in disguise so that the two can be alone. Shae and Tyrion quickly have sex and she makes a big deal of calling him her 'giant of Lannister'. Shae tells Tyrion that she likes how fierce his scar makes him look and says that she isn't frightened of Tywin when Tyrion tells her that she should be.

Shae wants to know when she'll be getting her jewels and clothes back and how long she'll have to work for Lollys. Tyrion tells her that she can stay with Lollys if she wants but it would be better for her to leave the city altogether. Shae says that she doesn't want to leave and reminds him that he promised her that she could move back into her manse after the battle. Tyrion again tells her that she needs to leave and says that she doesn't understand the dangers. Shae asks if she can come to Joffrey's wedding feast and is annoyed that Lollys doesn't want to go. The singer Symon Silver Tongue has been telling her about the wedding preparations and has heard that there are supposed to be seventy seven courses. She thinks that she'll be able to blend in since there will be so many people in attendance. When Tyrion continues to say that it won't be safe, Shae becomes sulllen and cold with him. 

Shas says she needs to head back before Lollys wakes up. She asks Tyrion if he's still her giant of Lannister and says that she knows she can never be his Lady or else he would take her to the feast. She tells him that she likes being his whore and asks him to keep her safe. Tyrion promises that he will and then curses himself for not sending her away as he'd planned. 

After parting from Shae, Tyrion goes back, wakes Pod, and asks him to find Bronn. When Bronn arrives, he tells Tyrion that there'd better be a good reason for why his visit to Chataya's was interrupted, Tyrion is annoyed that Bronn is able to afford Chataya's these days. He also seems a little jealous about Bronn being with Alayaya.

Tyrion tells Bronn that he wants him to find the singer Symon Silver Tongue who sometimes plays for Lady Tanda's daughter. He wants Bronn to find the man before someone else does.

[benteen]

Thus begins the rise of Ser Bronn of the Blackwater.  His Littlefinger-like rise to power from here is quite impressive.

Tyrion should have put Pycelle's head on a wall like he told his father he would.  Then again, he should have done the same thing with Littlefinger.

I had forgotten that Loras said the candle line to Tyrion.

Quote

Varys adds that Cersei has been suggestive enough with Osmund Kettleblack that the guy is under the impression that he'll be permitted to have sex with her eventually. Tyrion immediately wonders if he might be able to arrange it so that Tywin catches Cersei in bed with Osmund.

This is quite funny that Tyrion is actually entertaining the thought.

Edited June 15, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Seventy seven courses sounds so ridiculous. Even seventeen would have been too many but at least it would have been slightly more believable.

Shae seems really pissed that she isn't back in her house with her jewels. I wonder if she was hopeful that she might meet someone at the wedding.

I don't exactly recall what happens with the singer but I don't think it's anything good.

Cersei wasn't as stupid in the first three books and holding out with Osmund and only being suggestive about sex as a reward was another example of that.

I'm really looking forward to Arya's next chapter.

[Constantinople]

19 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Tyrion turns the discussion to Mandon Moore and Varys gives a few details about Moore's life. He was from the Vale, he appears to have been friendless, and even the members of the Kingsguard weren't fond of him.

Littlefinger is from the Vale, Mandon Moore is from the Vale.

Is it me, or does its seem as if Jon Arryn did a crap job vetting people from the Vale?

[kittykat]

I think Jon Arryn was a lame duck as far as being HotK.  He never resisted Robert when the king pretty much bankrupted the kingdom with his extravagance.  

Not my favorite chapter (ugh Shae) but some interesting insight into the secret passages and how well Varys knows them.

The seventy seven courses is a clear example of the crown's greed. And either it's their lack of awareness or willingness to ignore it that just because KL post Blackwater is safe and receiving food once more doesn't mean city morale is up.  It's bad form on the Lannisters.

And yeah Symon Silver tongue isn't getting a happy ending.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, kittykat said:

I think Jon Arryn was a lame duck as far as being HotK.  He never resisted Robert when the king pretty much bankrupted the kingdom with his extravagance.  

Not my favorite chapter (ugh Shae) but some interesting insight into the secret passages and how well Varys knows them.

The seventy seven courses is a clear example of the crown's greed. And either it's their lack of awareness or willingness to ignore it that just because KL post Blackwater is safe and receiving food once more doesn't mean city morale is up.  It's bad form on the Lannisters.

And yeah Symon Silver tongue isn't getting a happy ending.

It's interesting that despite having a fatherly relationship with Robert, Jon had next to no influence over him at all.  He couldn't stop Robert's excess and he couldn't even convince him to get rid of Janos Slynt despite how corrupt the man was.

When you read about the royal wedding having 77 courses, you can understand why the High Sparrow and his ilk become so popular with a lot of the smallfolk.

Edited June 16, 2016 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

Nobody from the Vale has come off particularly well.  They either seem to be not very bright or not very trustworthy.  I do sometimes wonder just what Jon Arryn did with his time since he didn't do much vetting of anyone and let Littlefinger use him as a step stool while we're to believe Robert ran the crown's finances into the ground.  I guess skulking around with Stannis trying to figure out the twincest  was pretty time consuming.

Every chapter featuring Varys reminds me how much less mincing and tittery he is on the show.  If I remember correctly, that was one of book Ned's big reasons for not trusting him.  A lot of it probably is the adjectives used to describe him, but he does present here as someone you probably want to keep some distance from.  

It feels a little ridiculous how much everybody is watching and trying to trap each other for having sex, like Tyrion and Cersei are teenagers and Tywin's going to take away the car if he finds out.  Tywin's presence probably has a lot to do with why Cersei's stringing Osmund Kettleblack along.  Once he's dead and she doesn't have any natural allies left to consolidate her power, she'll have to up the ante.  Shae's kind of an idiot here, but this chapter does do a nice job of cementing just how afraid of Tywin that Tyrion is and how seriously he takes his threats.  It does seem like it would be less of a headache for Tywin if his least favorite son was happily sequestered away somewhere out of sight with some whore.

I'm never clear how much power the Citadel actually has but apparently it is easier to just keep peace with them.

[benteen]

Stannis was the only other guy interested in good governance, not that it did Jon Arryn any good.  Spending time with Stannis must be pretty depressing.

I remember too in the first or second book Varys used to giggle a lot.

Quote

It feels a little ridiculous how much everybody is watching and trying to trap each other for having sex, like Tyrion and Cersei are teenagers and Tywin's going to take away the car if he finds out.  

And this is why the Lannisters fail and why the Tyrells succeed (for now).  Instead of pulling together, you have members of the family more determined than ever to destroy one another.  You can also thank Tywin's shitty parenting for that.

Edited June 17, 2016 by benteen

[Lady S.]

On 6/15/2016 at 2:39 PM, benteen said:

I had forgotten that Loras said the candle line to Tyrion.

Tyrion doesn't even seem aware of who Loras is referring to, does he? Mentioning the fun of breeding doesn't make much sense when talking to someone who prefers his own gender. Makes sense that Tyrion wouldn't know as much about this particular bit of gossip as Jaime and Cersei did since he never lived with Renly at court the way they did. Renly/Loras actually managed to keep their private life somewhat private in the books, at least so that it never became a nationwide open secret.

On 6/15/2016 at 8:11 PM, Avaleigh said:

Shae seems really pissed that she isn't back in her house with her jewels. I wonder if she was hopeful that she might meet someone at the wedding.

She's not very subtle that it's just a job for her, though Tyrion still ignores the hints. It doesn't sound like he's actually paid for her services in a while. If he had died with her having nothing to show for their time together, it'd be an unpaid debt. She'd either have to stick with Lollys as a maid for good or start over from square one with a new patron. I think she was probably willing to stick with Tyrion as long as she got something out of their deal. She could have probably already have found a new guy in their time apart if she'd really wanted to, but a Lannister would seem like a hard cash cow to beat.

 

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It feels a little ridiculous how much everybody is watching and trying to trap each other for having sex, like Tyrion and Cersei are teenagers and Tywin's going to take away the car if he finds out.  Tywin's presence probably has a lot to do with why Cersei's stringing Osmund Kettleblack along.  Once he's dead and she doesn't have any natural allies left to consolidate her power, she'll have to up the ante.

This is one of Tywin's greatest flaws, he's a control freak who never really acknowledges his children as adults, which means they revert to a perpetual adolescence around him. As a result, Cersei especially is not prepared to be a functional adult once she's free of him. Tywin had all these grand, impossible plans but no way to ensure they'd be carried out after he was dead. He lived more like he thought he was immortal, to the point of not securing his own succession.

Also, this family as a whole is way too concerned with each other's sex lives. At least Jaime and Tyrion don't appear to care about who the other one sleeps with.

[nodorothyparker]

Quote

And this is why the Lannisters fail and why the Tyrells succeed (for now).  Instead of pulling together, you have members of the family more determined than ever to destroy one another.  You can also thank Tywin's shitty parenting for that.

This is one of the things that's so maddening about all of Tyrion's chapters between now and Joffrey's wedding.  For all practical purposes, they've won.  Stannis has slunk back to Dragonstone defeated.  Robb may have won battles but he's failing to hold his alliance together and doesn't even have possession of his own castle.  Dany at this point is just a rumor on the far side of the world.  They're about to shore up the Tyrell alliance with the marriage.  Everything's coming up roses for House Lannister.  And yet, Tyrion and Cersei are actively plotting and trying to undermine each other.  Tywin's keeping tabs on them like wayward teenagers instead of adults who could be expected to act like adults and contribute to the aims of their house.

All three Lannister children make more sense to me when viewed as suspended adolescents too crippled by Tywin's iron control to successfully adult.  Hence you get a treasonous Romeo and Juliet style twincest right under everyone's noses that was never grown out of and Tyrion refusing to be much of anything but drink and whore until the moment he could do it on his terms as hand of the king and then lashes out petulantly when he can't anymore.  It's quite the contrast to the Stark kids, one of whom is chided for being in fact a child at age 3 in the first book and have had to act as mini adults before most of them were even well into their teens.

[benteen]

Joanna caught Jaime and Cersei "acting like animals" when they were 8 but it's noted that she seemed too afraid to tell Tywin about it.  Perhaps this is an indication the marriage between Tywin and Joanna wasn't all roses.  That should be been squashed out a lot sooner.

Tywin is responsible for Tyrion's whoring though, after how he handled the Tysha situation and then never let his son forget about it 15 years after the fact.

And then he slept with his son's whore (using the book term here).  Thus guaranteeing his death by Tyrion.

Edited June 17, 2016 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

As a mom of a boy and girl fairly close in age, I can say there can be a certain amount of curiosity and hilariously awkward explaining of why "no, your brother will never be your boyfriend" and "no, you guys can't marry each other" and I've always assumed that's what Joanna thought she was dealing with.  

I can't remember now if it's this book or the next one that tells us that she immediately moved the kids' bed chambers to opposite sides of the Rock and posted someone outside Cersei's door to keep watch. I'm sure she thought she'd handled it and there was no point in riling Tywin up about something that was likely to be a nonissue going forward.  And perhaps if she had lived, it wouldn't have been.  She would have kept up her vigilance to keep them separated and in a couple of years Jaime would have gone off to foster and squire and a marriage would have been arranged for Cersei and that would have been that.  Tyrion also would have vastly benefited by not being raised by someone who actively hated him for existing from the moment he first drew breath.  Unfortunately, Joanna did die and her death put the entire Lannister family dynamic into play.

[Jazzy24]

7 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

As a mom of a boy and girl fairly close in age, I can say there can be a certain amount of curiosity and hilariously awkward explaining of why "no, your brother will never be your boyfriend" and "no, you guys can't marry each other" and I've always assumed that's what Joanna thought she was dealing with.  

I can't remember now if it's this book or the next one that tells us that she immediately moved the kids' bed chambers to opposite sides of the Rock and posted someone outside Cersei's door to keep watch. I'm sure she thought she'd handled it and there was no point in riling Tywin up about something that was likely to be a nonissue going forward.  And perhaps if she had lived, it wouldn't have been.  She would have kept up her vigilance to keep them separated and in a couple of years Jaime would have gone off to foster and squire and a marriage would have been arranged for Cersei and that would have been that.  Tyrion also would have vastly benefited by not being raised by someone who actively hated him for existing from the moment he first drew breath.  Unfortunately, Joanna did die and her death put the entire Lannister family dynamic into play.

I think Jaime and Cersei was doing something so very inappropriate that's it was beyond the normal brother and sister going through that phase. 

It must have been something huge for her to move Jaime across the Rock, put a guard outside Cersei's door and dismiss the maid. 

[nodorothyparker]

I think so too, but I can also see how she would have wanted to downplay it and consider it handled.  She's married to the poster boy for complete overreactions, after all.

[benteen]

I think if Joanna had lived through Tyrion's birth and died of something else at a later date, Tywin might have raised him without such bitterness and hatred.

[SeanC]

On 6/16/2016 at 3:27 PM, benteen said:

It's interesting that despite having a fatherly relationship with Robert, Jon had next to no influence over him at all.  He couldn't stop Robert's excess and he couldn't even convince him to get rid of Janos Slynt despite how corrupt the man was.

I've often thought that GRRM kind of has it both ways with Robert's kingship, where he's somehow both largely absentee and yet still able to gum up the works on finances, appointments, etc., which logically shouldn't happen when he has largely delegated the running of the kingdom to competent advisors like Arryn, Stannis, etc.

[Avaleigh]

Arya II

Arya and Hot Pie are gathering vegetables when Arya hears voices approaching. They try to hide but are quickly discovered by three men. One of the men is a singer who goes by the name Tom Sevenstrings and he introduces his companions Lem and Anguy. Hot Pie immediately gives his name but Arya and Gendry are more wary. Gendry says that he's called the Bull and Arya stays with the name Squab once Tom gives it to her after hearing Hot Pie's name. 

Tom notices the sigil on Arya's doublet and guesses that the three of them have escaped from Roose Bolton's kitchens. Hot Pie clarfies that he, Arya, and Gendry aren't anybody's men and basically asks the three strangers who it is they serve. Lem says that they're King Robert's men, but Arya is suspicious of this and doesn't think that they look like King's men at all especially since they don't have any horses. She suspects that they're outlaws and is furious when Hot Pie asks them how many days ride from Riverrun they are. 

Tom invites the three to come with them to an inn and while Arya and Gendry are instantly suspicious, they end up agreeing to go after Anguy demonstrates his skill with a bow and see that it would be pointless to try to run or escape. Tom swears that he doesn't want to hurt them.

As they travel towards the inn, Tom asks them if they know any songs. Arya tells him that singing is stupid and is concerned that they'll make too much noise. Hot Pie says he knows the song about the bear so he and Tom sing it together and Arya is surprised to hear that Hot Pie has a nice singing voice. 

When they reach the inn, Arya sees a boat and suggests to Gendry that they steal it and sail the rest of the way to Riverrun. Gendry gives a few reasons for why he doesn't think it's a good idea to steal the boat, but Arya still seems like she thinks they'd be able to get away with taking it. 

Arya and Gendry think it's better if one of them stays outside to watch the horses so Gendry volunteers even though Tom assures them that their horses will be safe. 

Inside of the inn, Arya drinks ale and listens to the innkeepers talk about the people who've recently passed by. As Arya listens to the men talk with the innkeepers she realizes that she was right in suspecting them to be outlaws and hears how they intended on robbing the last people who stopped by the inn. As they're eating and drinking, Tom hands Arya a piece of paper and tells her that he's going to need to take their horses. He promises to pay her three dragons for them once the war is over. Arya knows that the horses are going to be taken from them no matter what they do and asks if they can have the boat in exchange for the horses. The outlaws laugh after Arya says this, but the conversation is interrupted by Gendry bursting inside to tell everyone that about a dozen riders are approaching. Arya draws her sword and Lem twists her arm in order to get her to drop it. She screams at Gendry and Hot Pie to run and breaks Lem's nose in her attempt to flee. Gendry tries to help Arya, but it's too late for them to run. The wife of the innkeeper tells Arya that she's with the king's men and they'll try to protect her as best as they can.

Arya thinks the riders are one of the most ragged groups of men she's ever seen and as she's staring at them, she recognizes one of her father's men. She whispers Harwin's name and remembers how he used to lead her around on her pony. She calls to Harwin and asks him if he knows her. She struggles to free herself from Lem's grip and tells Harwin that he has to know her. She starts crying and Harwin wonders how she knows him. He asks her if she was a serving boy of Roose Bolton's and Arya tells him that she's a girl and that he used to lead her around on her pony when she was younger. It takes him a moment to recognize her, but Harwin soon realizes who Arya is and goes down to on his knee before her as he tells everyone that she's Arya Stark of Winterfell.

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I think so too, but I can also see how she would have wanted to downplay it and consider it handled.  She's married to the poster boy for complete overreactions, after all.

She could have also shared Tywin's capacity for denial about family dysfunction, thinking she could handle sweep this unpleasantness under the rug without ever having to draw attention to it.

[Constantinople]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Hot Pie says he knows the song about the bear so he and Tom sing it together

It seems people can only remember two songs:  The Rains of Castamere & The Bear and the Maiden Fair.  Either everyone has some kind of learning disability or the songwriters are so terrible people can't be bothered to remember anything else.  We know The Rains of Castamere is a "new" song, i.e., written within living memory ,which means that before Tywin Lannister came around, everyone had been stuck with TBATMF since the Long Night.  If any songwriter showed even minimal competence, he or she should clean up.

To put it another way, what befalls Symon Silver Tongue isn't a tragedy, since he was never more useful.  The tragedy is that his colleagues don't share the same fate.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Constantinople
The songwriters of Westeros/Essos blow

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

It seems people can only remember two songs:  The Rains of Castamere & The Bear and the Maiden Fair.  Either everyone has some kind of learning disability or the songwriters are so terrible people can't be bothered to remember anything else.  We know The Rains of Castamere is a "new" song, i.e., written within living memory ,which means that before Tywin Lannister came around, everyone had been stuck with TBATMF since the Long Night.  If any songwriter showed even minimal competence, he or she should clean up.

This is really only true of the show. Tom was singing a different song when he met them and sings other songs in later chapters. The Dornishman's Wife also showed up in Jon I and The Last of the Giants is sung by Ygritte at some point. Then there's all the songs with titles but no lyrics.

[nodorothyparker]

I love that this chapter is a sort of followup to Jaime's in that it's the same inn, the same people, and we get confirmation that Jaime and Brienne were right to suspect they were being set up to be robbed.  They and Arya apparently didn't miss each other by very much, which makes it fun to speculate what would have happened had they met.  Having Arya would have halved Brienne's task, but as rightfully suspicious and mistrustful of people as Arya is by this point, it's hard to imagine her readily going along with a strange woman, even one claiming to be from her mother and with a Lannister in chains.

I do kind of love the Brotherhood writing out an IOU for the horses they're about to steal.

Edited June 18, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

I was wondering what Brienne would do if she'd run into Arya at the inn. Say Jaime recognized her and this is before Harwin and the others arrive. Even if Arya is willing to go along, where would Brienne want to go next? If she goes to King's Landing, no way is Arya going to be willing to come and even if she did, there's no way that the Lannisters would allow her to leave with both girls. If she returns Arya to Riverrun, then there's basically no chance of freeing Sansa.

I do wonder how book Arya would have responded to seeing a woman like Brienne. It would have been interesting if Arya has put in some time as her squire. I wonder too what Brienne would have made of Gendry at this stage. I almost wish these groups had met up because I feel like everyone would have benefitted.

I like how Arya made the same observation about the stables that Jaime and Brienne did. She's a very sharp girl. Poor Hot Pie can't help being slow. He's totally that kid who's always asking 'are we there yet?'

It's sad that these "good" guys are stealing from young kids like Arya and her friends or from people like Brienne who actually pay them generously. That I-owe-you slip is completely meaningless and Tom has to know how ridiculously unlikely it is that he'll ever pay these people back.

Arya crying at getting Harwin to remember her was very moving to me. 

I was also sad to read that even music is something Arya is incapable of enjoying anymore because she (understandably) sees it as something that's dangerous. 

Another sad thing is how the water is contaminated from all of the dead bodies. It really does suck to be in the Riverlands. They can't even pick a few vegetables without being robbed and more or less kidnapped and these aren't even the bad guys.

[nodorothyparker]

That's a fair question.  Brienne couldn't have taken Arya all the way back to Kings Landing.  She'd never agree to go and on the extremely off chance that she did, Tyrion isn't in charge anymore and it's unlikely Tywin or Cersei would be at all inclined to let Brienne walk away with both girls.  If she takes Arya on to Riverrun, Jaime at best ends up back in the dungeon and they're still no closer to Sansa.  She's also got nowhere to leave Jaime and she has to know he's going to try to escape the minute she's out of sight.

Because Arya's recognized by the Hound on the show, I had to read on ahead to further place Harwin and figure out how he got there.  It must have been the biggest relief to finally see a familiar face from Winterfell after everything she's seen and been through.

As with nearly every chapter set there, I have to say again that it sucks to be the Riverlands.  Always first to be invaded, first to be set on fire.  It's like the Poland of Westeros.  

[Avaleigh]

It would be an impossible choice really but I guess it might make the most sense for her to focus on helping Arya. The question would be whether or not it would be worth it to free Jaime on the off chance that he'd keep his word. If Jaime is allowed to go free then the Lannisters at least won't retaliate by killing Sansa. If she takes him back to Riverrun though there's a strong possibility that he would be killed and I can't imagine that being good for Sansa. Furthermore, if she brings Jaime back, it would likely break Catelyn's heart and I feel like that would be a big deal to Brienne. It seems like she might end up making a choice that was similar to the choice Catelyn made when she freed Jaime in the first place. 

Now that I'm thinking about it, Brienne kind of lucked out in not having to make the choice. No matter what, she'd be prevented from fulfilling her vow in some way.