The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[benteen]

Joffrey's finest moment as he calls out Tywin for the coward that he is.  Not for any noble reason but still, satisfying.  Tywin is a coward as well as a bully, a thug and a pervert. 

Still, Tywin is right that you have to help your enemy back up after you force them to bend the knee.

I liked that even Kevan was shocked by what Joffrey said and told him as much.

Quote

Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner.”

An interesting point by Tywin here (one that D and D have used in their defense of Tywin to excuse his actions) although we know he wasn't thinking of these more "noble reasons" when he plotted with the Freys.  Not to mention, he ensured he would have the animosity of the North and the Riverlands forever for this action.

I'm sure Tywin wanted Elia dead too.  Her being chosen over a Lannister is enough for Tywin to want her dead.

Great summary as always, Avaleigh.

Edited January 9, 2017 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

This chapter is terrific in showcasing the Lannister family dynamic in all its messy dysfunctional glory.  I quite liked the show's adaption of the small council discussing the red wedding even with the subbing of Varys for Kevan, whose ability to be shocked just shocked at their awfulness to each other is always dryly interesting.  I'm always a little impressed at Tywin's restraint at simply sending Joffrey to bed after his mouthing off about his father and not Tywin being the one to end the war, which barring the specific reference to killing Rhaegar could easily be applied to either Robert or Jaime.  Granted that he's only 13, but this is the same kid who uses members of the Kingsguard to slap people around and ran and hid behind his mother's skirts at the Blackwater so he's not exactly coming from a place of great bravery or victory in battle to accuse anyone of cowardice.

I can see why someone would latch onto the line about why would it be more noble to kill 10,000 in battle than a dozen in dinner.  There's a certain sort of logic about it but it doesn't quite fly in the very least because the death toll was quite a bit more than a dozen.  The Northern forces outside the castle were slaughtered as well.  We also know Tywin wasn't thinking about what the most noble way to end the war might be but what would be easiest to end the Northern war while losing the least of his men and resources and positioning himself to have a hand in Northern rule until he could hopefully get a grandchild in the Winterfell high seat.

I can't even really blame Tywin for considering Oberyn's demands for justice mostly an annoyance to be fobbed off on a conveniently dead man.  He's had what? 16 years? to avenge the murders of Elia and her children and only now is he getting around to it and then insisting that something be done RIGHT NOW.  It's typical of Twyin's smartest guy in the room persona to think that he could so easily overturn years of stories about how the Mountain did it to pin it on Amory Lorch so he could keep his most useful and terrifying pet for himself or to think that the Dornish might so easily buy it.  It's also telling that the Mountain is such a monster that he apparently needs to be specifically told NOT to rape and murder someone.

I love the little glimpses we get here of what Tywin actually thinks of so many of the players.  He's not wrong for example that Robert was a fool who wanted to be a hero but didn't want to have to get his own hands dirty with disposing of the royal family.  It's also interesting that for as much as he doesn't trust any of his grown children to adult properly without him, he was apparently hands off enough as a grandfather to the future king that he didn't know what if any influence Robert might have had on Joffrey and trusted Cersei with the job.  Yet he makes no bones of thinking Cersei is a petty idiot.

Edited January 10, 2017 by nodorothyparker

[John Potts]

Not that I want to come across as a Tywin supporter (again!) but it's possible Tywin could justify the Red Wedding on pure Utilitarian grounds: the longer the war goes on, the more people die. Ending it brutally at the Twins means that fewer people - on both sides - would die overall. Yes, it's self serving and yes, he understates the casualties (slightly more than a dozen died!), but he may have a point.

However (philosophically speaking) this is a good example of why people who oppose utilitarianism (myself included) dislike it as an idea: it can be used to justify all sorts of horrible shit in the cause of "the greater good". There's also the fact that it's impossible to really foresee the full consequences: maybe in the immediate future the Red Wedding ended the war, but it undermines the faith in the societal contract and so we see chaos in the North as we see the Boltons struggling (and ultimately failing) to maintain control. He also, despite commenting that he won't be around forever, doesn't seem to have any plan in place for when he dies (and it's possible that might happen sooner than he thinks...) if he wants to maintain the Lannister "Thousand Year Reich". The fact that Oberyn is in town and out for blood for his actions a decade & a half back should show that he might have neglected to consider all the consequences.

(Wow, really got to give my philosophy degree a work out!)

[Avaleigh]

I loved this chapter. I find the Lannister family dynamic to be fascinating and I feel like this chapter chapter gives a lot of insight into Tywin as a man and as a father and Lannister patriarch. 

What I find interesting here is that this is perhaps the most vulnerable that we see Tywin outside of the privy scene. Joffrey and Cersei are all happy and feeling like they've won and while Tyrion isn't happy to learn of the red wedding, he too interprets it as them 'winning' and doesn't immediately have a sense of impending doom. I don't think that Tywin is as concerned as he should be, but he's at least astute enough to understand that they still have a lot of fighting and challenges ahead. He doesn't feel victorious and for the first time he's starting to understand the type of man that his grandson is shaping out to be. 

Tyrion was dead right too, when he said that Joffrey is closer to being an Aerys the Third. What's interesting about this to me is that Tywin knows it's true and even used the Aerys comparison himself earlier in the chapter when he was talking about Aerys's fondness for ripping out people's tongues and reminding everyone that he's the king. Tywin can see it, but he didn't want to say it and it's obvious to me that he's troubled by hearing Tyrion what he already knows. 

Tywin is trying to convince himself that there's still time to make Joffrey a better person, but I think his body language and demeanor suggests that he knows it's probably already too late. 

18 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I love the little glimpses we get here of what Tywin actually thinks of so many of the players.  He's not wrong for example that Robert was a fool who wanted to be a hero but didn't want to have to get his own hands dirty with disposing of the royal family.  It's also interesting that for as much as he doesn't trust any of his grown children to adult properly without him, he was apparently hands off enough as a grandfather to the future king that he didn't know what if any influence Robert might have had on Joffrey and trusted Cersei with the job.  Yet he makes no bones of thinking Cersei is a petty idiot.

I truly find Tywin's hands off attitude here to be completely puzzling. It makes little to no sense to me that one of Cersei's sons didn't spend time being fostered with Tywin especially once Robert made it clear that he had no interest in teaching them anything. In fact, Tywin's low opinion of Robert (and Cersei) makes me think that he'd have gone out of his way to try to be involved on some level. 

I also don't understand what expectations he has of Cersei. It's obvious that he thinks she's just a foolish woman and now it's like it's he's only just now getting a newsflash that she's done a horrible job in raising this kid. It seems like Tywin was checked out for years that he had no sense of how his grandson was shaping out to be. I can just about buy that Joffrey was always on his best behavior in front of Tywin. But that wouldn't stifle all of the stories that have no doubt crept out about Joffrey over the years. A kid who is going around gruesomely murdering cats isn't going to stop there. 

I wonder what sharp lesson Tywin had planned for Joffrey? What would he really be able to get away with doing that would be strong enough to get Joffrey to see that he means business? 

I despise Joffrey and think he's easily one of the most hateful characters, but I did feel a pang at him being forced to drink the dreamwine. Not for him so much as it being over the idea of child being forcibly drugged so that other people can take charge. Since it's Joffrey, it's easy to ignore, but it's also troubling to think of just how easy it would be to poison someone in his position. It made me think of Robert Arryn too. Something about drugging kids in order to continue playing the Game is unsettling to me, even when those kids are little assholes or assholes in training like Joffrey and Sweetrobin. 

Regarding the tension between the Tyrells and Martells--

I have to say that I expected more from Olenna than for her to just shout out some childish insults to Ellaria. What good did she think that would accomplish? Plus, I have to remind myself that book Ellaria is a good woman unlike her show counterpart, so that just made the comment doubly irritating to me.  

[nodorothyparker]

This chapter does make me wonder what exactly Tywin has been up to for the last decade and a half besides enabling Robert to sink the crown further and further into debt to him.  For someone as obsessed with family legacy as he is and having two grandsons in line for the throne, you would think he would have been more actively involved in making sure those boys would be good stewards of his legacy, whether through fostering at Casterly Rock or something.  Instead, we get Robert impotently bitching about being surrounded by Lannisters and Lannister influence when there doesn't seem have been a whole lot of it beyond naming random cousins to positions like cup bearer.

I realize here that we're supposed to think that Tywin was still pinning all his hopes on Jaime coming back to be heir of the Rock and continuing the Lannister line, but it still makes no sense that up to this point he apparently had that little interest in his grandchildren through Cersei sitting on the Iron Throne or entrusting that they would be raised properly for that responsibility by people he already knew were a drunken disinterested fool and a petty short-sighted idiot.  He'd spent enough time in the Targaryen court to know perfectly well how badly that could turn out.

Joffery is an evil terrible devil child but he's very much a product of his raising or lack thereof to the point that I end up feeling like he never had much of a chance to be anything other that what he was.  It occasionally gives me moments I almost feel bad for him until he yet again does or says something horrid.  We see time and again that Cersei has coddled and favored him and filled his head with the greatest hits of the Lannister version of how to win friends and influence people while Robert stopped making even a half-assed attempt to parent him fairly early on.  There's a scene early in Clash of Kings where he's shooting crossbolt after crossbolt at rabbits and missing terribly and they're all snickering at him and you realize no one has ever likely taken the time to teach him any discipline about anything.  Yet they all expect him to be king. 

[Lady S.]

On 1/9/2017 at 2:24 PM, benteen said:

Joffrey's finest moment as he calls out Tywin for the coward that he is.  Not for any noble reason but still, satisfying.  Tywin is a coward as well as a bully, a thug and a pervert. 

Takes one to know one, I guess. Though a kid like Joffrey, who's never even been in a real fight, was once disarmed by a little girl and cried, and uses his Kingsguard to do his "acting boldly" like publicly beating his betrothed, doesn't really have much room to talk about other people's cowardice, does he? I also don't think cowardice is really Tywin's problem so much as his ruthless opportunism. When given the chance to fight unfairly and kill an enemy "cheaply", he'll always take that opportunity, but I don't think he would have run from a more even, honest battle with Robb if that was the only way to go. Tywin likes his victories to feel efficient and he likes them to feel total, as one-sided as possible, to send a message about House Lannister's strength. And that's the flaw in his strategy, assuming he can rule all seven kingdoms by fear alone and that the surviving northmen and riverlords will be too beaten down to pose any real threat to Lannister rule. I would even say his words about helping men up when they bend their knees aren't really a sign of practical mercy either, because it'd be more accurate to say the riverlords in question have been forced to their knees. Unlike the Baratheon bannermen defeated at the Blackwater, Robb's people already hated the Lannisters for good reason and really have no reason to make peace with people responsible for the Red Wedding, but Tywin assumes they are all cowed and will just ignore their grudges and know their proper place (meaning living in fear of the might of House Lannister) once they've all been pardoned.

On 1/9/2017 at 4:25 PM, nodorothyparker said:

It's also telling that the Mountain is such a monster that he apparently needs to be specifically told NOT to rape and murder someone.

Tywin may have been honest about not knowing what he had in Gregor and never ordering Elia's rape, (sidenote, I've always found it ironic that he makes this comment to Tyrion of all people, but I'm sure Tywin could never grasp the hypocrisy) but I'd think giving orders about people you absolutely do not need killed in the wanton bloodlust of a Sack would be standard procedure. Even the Boltons understand that much, with Ramsay giving orders to spare the Walders in the Sack of Winterfell. (An order which imo must have originally come from Roose and be meant to show his involvement there, seeing as Ramsay nowhere else shows an understanding of proper noble hostage-taking.) And it should even moreso be a given that a mother may get in the way of her child's murder and get herself killed too, as happened with baby Barra's mother in Chataya's, with the unnamed miller's wife when Theon/Ramsay killed her sons, and most recently with Catelyn at the Red Wedding. (Could be Gregor just felt like adding some extra violence for the hell of it, but I think it likely Elia tried to protect her baby and he decided to punish her for it after he'd smashed Aegon's head in.) Tywin's statement that Elia, by herself, meant nothing is a red flag to me because while her death wasn't needed, her life should have meant something as a hostage, giving leverage to prevent Dorne being raised for Viserys or her family otherwise trying to avenge her children. Of course the Martells took their sweet ass time with the vengeance, but Tywin couldn't have counted on that, he should have expected trouble. I can buy that Tywin had some natural concern about the Jaime/Aerys situation but it's hard to believe that a cold-hearted father and meticulous Magnificent Bastard like Tywin would let a valuable princess completely slip his mind because he was just overwhelmed with paternal worry. That's why I'm inclined to think that Tywin not giving orders regarding Elia was a deliberate omission on his part. If she survived, he'd have made use of her, and when she didn't he must have taken some petty satisfaction remembering how Aerys chose the Martells over the Lannisters in the matter of Rhaegar's marriage.  

Back to the Red Wedding and the most recent mother/child murder, maybe Tywin didn't want Catelyn killed (though why, I don't know, as she kidnapped a Lannister and provoked Tywin's wrath in the first place, and I don't think she had as much hostage-value as Elia when they were already keeping Edmure alive), but it sure didn't look like the Freys were trying to spare her. She'd already been wounded by a crossbow bolt before her throat was slit, and a single crossbow bolt could be fatal. The fact that the shot which hit her, in the confusion of firing everywhere, was not fatal on impact was just due to chance. If they wanted to keep her hostage they should have kept her unharmed and out of the line of fire. She didn't leave with the other future hostages for the bedding (obligatory ew), but there's no sign they had any other pretext to get her out of the room before she realized the trap was set.

One may ask why Tywin would feel the need to lie to Tyrion about Elia's death or anything else, but surely we might also question why he feels the need to justify his reasoning to Tyrion at all if he has no respect for Tyrion, cares nothing for Tyrion's judgment of him and is truly confident that all of his choices are purely rational and done for the Greater Good.

As to Tywin's denial about Joff being another Mad King rather than Robert II, I don't think it's the case that he always knew Cersei couldn't be trusted with important tasks. I think he now thinks Cersei is an idiot after spending more time with Joffrey and seeing what she'd done there. He initially thought it was great that Robert was dead and Cersei was in charge, then he was shocked by the fuck-up of Ned's beheading along with Cersei's other follies regarding Barristan Selmy and Janos Slynt. When Tyrion reunites with Cersei in KL, he makes some remark about never being blinded by her the way Tywin was. This was in reference to the twincest, but I think Tyrion meant it in general too. Tywin is in deep denial about Jaime being his heir, has zero back-ups plans for anyone else inheriting, is completely irrational about Tyrion, and chooses to live his life as if he thinks he is immortal, so why wouldn't he be blind to the reality of Cersei as Queen (a dream he's had for her since she was a little girl) until he actually has to live with the reality of Cersei as Queen? Not acknowledging Joffrey as Aerys III or as being 3 years from coming of age and may not be fixable with a single "sharp lesson", despite the fact that clearly he is rattled by this, could be just another symptom of his inability to admit that his Golden Lannister Legacy is never, ever going to work the way he wants it to.

21 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I have to say that I expected more from Olenna than for her to just shout out some childish insults to Ellaria. What good did she think that would accomplish? Plus, I have to remind myself that book Ellaria is a good woman unlike her show counterpart, so that just made the comment doubly irritating to me.  

 This kind of shit is why people should not believe in the fanon view of Olenna as some brilliant feminist heroine. We already had anti-Dornish prejudice with her blaming Oberyn (and even his maester) for Willas's crippling, even though Willas himself never did. 

[benteen]

Tywin's lack of involvement in his grandchildren's lives is puzzling and I've often wondered if he even loved his grandchildren.

He certainly didn't teach Cersei anything about good governing and it seems that despite how smart he was about a lot of things, he literally put all of his hopes on his golden child Jaime.  Cersei was only useful to him as a way to marry into the Crown and he couldn't be bothered with Tyrion unless it was to obsess over him sleeping with whores. 

[nodorothyparker]

Good question about why Tywin is even telling Tyrion all of this in the first place when he's already made it a point to say that he didn't consider it all important to keep him in the loop beforehand and has never made any secret of caring what Tyrion thinks about much despite his begrudging acknowledgement of his cunning. I'm never quite sure if he's being completely honest with Tyrion or if I should just chalk the entire scene up to Tywin playing exposition fairy to get us caught up to speed in case you missed all the behind the scenes plotting and maneuvering that got us to the red wedding.

Because yeah, it really makes no sense for him to say here that they originally intended to keep Catelyn alive as a hostage.  There were certainly no visible efforts made on that front and more importantly, to whom would she been all that valuable?  The Northerners who are reeling from just losing their king and plenty of their own men?  Many of them weren't all that happy with her when she still had value as Ned's widow and Robb's mother.  Ned Stark's bastard at the Wall who's in no position to get involved one way or the other even if he was so inclined?  Her only known surviving child is Sansa and they already have her in a position where she's completely cowed.  Edmure is also already their prisoner.  If the Blackfish won't be willing to surrender Riverrun in exchange for the current lord, what would make them think he'd do it for her?

I'm also inclined to think Tywin not ordering Elia Martell spared was a deliberate thing.  The Dornish were still going to have the slowest acting grudge in history over the deaths of her children who were also of their blood, but having her as a hostage would have been extra insurance or she could have been returned to Dorne in a great show of reconciliation.  But if Elia being chosen as a royal bride over Cersei because "we don't marry the help" was one of the big wrongs we're told Tywin had been sitting out the war at Casterly Rock brooding over, it must have been a tremendously satisfying fuck you to see her laid out and Cersei married to the new king.

[WearyTraveler]

In the chapter when Jaime returns to KL and has his first meeting with his father, Tywin says (after seeing Jaime's stump) "If Lady Catelyn thinks...."; then Jaime interrupts him to clarify that Catelyn wasn't responsible for his hand.  This has always puzzled me, in light of the discussions the characters have in this chapter, where they seem 99.99% sure Catelyn is dead (the second wolf pelt).  And if they weren't absolutely sure at this time, they must have been later, as everybody and their brother knew the Freys had sewn Grey Wind's head to Robb's corpse and dumped Catelyn's body in the river.

Add to that the points some of you have made regarding the logic of keeping her as a hostage, and I can only conclude that the writing is so muddled here because George went back and forth on exactly how and when he was going to have Catelyn become Stoneheart.

[Lady S.]

18 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

In the chapter when Jaime returns to KL and has his first meeting with his father, Tywin says (after seeing Jaime's stump) "If Lady Catelyn thinks...."; then Jaime interrupts him to clarify that Catelyn wasn't responsible for his hand.  This has always puzzled me, in light of the discussions the characters have in this chapter, where they seem 99.99% sure Catelyn is dead (the second wolf pelt). 

Or it was Tywin just slipping up in his shock at seeing Jaime's stump. Naturally he'd jump to avenging the injury so he forgot that the person he thought was responsible had already been killed. I've seen other people say that GRRM didn't initially intend to kill Catelyn with Robb, but it's always confused me. Without the Stoneheart plot, I'd think she'd just stay dead. What could her story even be post-RW? A PoV of a Frey hostage would probably not be as interesting as a Lannister hostage PoV if it's just her and Edmure hanging out in a dungeon. And her survival would mean changes for her daughters' stories too. Arya is still scolding Sandor for not rescuing Catelyn when she leaves him to die. No way she'd leave Westeros if she knew her mother was alive. Sansa's would be less changed but one would think she'd at least have more questions for Littlefinger about helping his trapped true love. It's all just very confusing.

[Constantinople]

Given the importance Tywin places on the Lannister name to the exclusion of (almost) all else, what most puzzles me about Tywin is the emphasis he places carrying on the family legacy through Cersei's children.  That's a blind alley.

From Tywin's perspective, Cersei's children are Baratheons.  It's still profitable to be royal in-laws for a generation or two, and a good way to protect the Lannister family from the wrath of other houses.  But if a Baratheon king is around in a hundred years, that king won't particularly care that his great-great-grandmother (or whatever) was born a Lannister (unless it enables him to claim Casterly Rock).  If the dynasty lasts, it will be known as the Baratheon dynasty, and Tywin knows this.

That would still be true even if Tywin didn't turn a blind eye to his grandchildrens' parentage.  If the dynasty lasts, it writes the history and the history will say the dynasty is Baratheon.  The dynasty will only be known as a Lannister dynasty if it falls, and that won't look too good in the history books, even if the dynasty is retroactively named Waters or Hill.

But it's possible I'm muddling-up TV Tywin with Book Tywin.

[John Potts]

Maybe Tywin intends to have Lannisters as pseudo-hereditary Hands to a Baratheon Monarch? If it's common knowledge that the man n the throne is merely a figurehead while the real power is held by their cousins the Lannisters (like the Stewards in Lord of the Rings, though they DIDN'T have an actual King for several centuries) then it might b "good enough" - though if THAT'S the Plan, he really should have taken more interest in grooming Jamie as his heir (or even swallow his distaste and groom Tyrion, who is clearly the more suited to it).

[Avaleigh]

Davos V

Salladhor Saan brings news of the Red Wedding to Stannis's court, and Davos thinks to himself that the Freys must be cursed to have done something like that. Selyse and Ser Axell think that they have R'hllor to thank for the news, but Stannis thinks that the news sounds more like the handiwork of Walder Frey. Melisandre says that the Lord of Light used Walder Frey as an instrument to make the Red Wedding happen and warns Stannis that other "false kings" will end up taking the crowns of those who've died. Stannis is angry when he hears about this and feels that the flames are full of tricks.

“An ant who hears the words of a king may not comprehend what he is saying,” Melisandre said, “and all men are ants before the fiery face of god. If sometimes I have mistaken a warning for a prophecy or a prophecy for a warning, the fault lies in the reader, not the book. But this I know for a certainty - envoys and pardons will not serve you now, no more than leeches. You must show the realm a sign. A sign that proves your power!”

Selyse wants Stannis to listen to Melisandre and tells him that he has more men than Aegon the Conqueror had when he took power three hundred years ago. She says that all Stannis needs are dragons and gives a brief breakdown of all the times the Targaryens have tried and failed to hatch dragons over the years. Selyse doesn't think those failures mean anything because the Targaryens weren't R'hllor's chosen one and they presumably didn't understand that death is the price that has to be paid for life. 

Stannis knows that Melisandre wants Edric Storm and starts complaining about how he's been sick of Edric since before he was even born. He bitches about the kid's name and says just hearing it is enough to blacken his mood. Melisandre urges Stannis to give Edric to her and tells him that he'll never have to hear the boy's name again. Ser Axell and Selyse both beg Stannis to do as Melisandre says, and Selyse tells Stannis that if Edric is out of the picture that she'll suddenly be able to give him the sons he desires. 

Stannis reminds them that Edric is his blood and says that the boy isn't to blame for his bastard status. Melisandre talks some more about waking the stone dragon by using Edric's blood and Stannis grudgingly admits that it would be pretty cool to ride a dragon.

Stannis reminisces about going to court with Robert when they're with both small children during Aerys's reign. He thinks about how impressed they were with Aerys only to be told later that the man they'd mistaken for the king was Tywin. 

Davos asks for permission to speak and prays to the Warrior to give him strength. He tells Stannis that "no man is so accursed as the kinslayer" according to the gods. Melisandre is dismissive of what Davos has to say and tells the room that the only gods they need to worry about are R'hllor and the Other whose name isn't supposed to be spoken. Davos wants to know why Melisandre needs Edric specifically, and Melisandre tells him it's because of the power of king's blood. She brings up what she did with the leeches, but Davos points out that Joffrey is still alive. Melisandre asks Stannis if Joffrey's death will be enough proof for him that R'hllor is the is the real deal, and Stannis grudgingly says that it might. Selyse is confident that Joffrey will die, and Ser Axell thinks it's possible that Joffrey is already dead and they just haven't received the news yet.

Stannis orders everyone to leave, but Davos decides to remain behind so that he can talk to Stannis about Edric. Stannis tries to cut Davos off before he can speak, but Davos makes it clear that Shireen will be devastated if anything bad happens to Edric. Stannis knows that his daughter is close to Edric and starts talking about how annoying it is that Edric worships the memory of his father Robert. Stannis doesn't want to hear anymore about his bastard nephew and when Davos notices that Stannis again refuses to use the boy's name, Davos takes the opportunity to remind his king that his nephew's name is Edric Storm. Stannis briefly reflects on how appropriate the boy's name is considering his high birth, bastard status, and "turmoil" that comes with him wherever he goes.

Davos again tries to speak up for Edric, but Stannis quickly cuts him off.  

“ - is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!” Stannis gave a derisive snort. “It glimmers prettily, I’ll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?”

Davos thinks that the price that would have to be paid is too high, and Stannis asks what the life of one bastard boy is against the entire kingdom. Davos thinks that Edric's life means everything in this case, so Stannis orders Davos to leave before he ends up talking himself back into the dungeon.

Davos walks out into the yard and starts thinking about his wife and youngest kids. He wants nothing more than to take Devan with him so that they can go home, but he tells himself that he has a duty to Stannis as Hand of the King. He looks around at the many stone dragons on Dragonstone and wonders if it's possible that they were ever once real dragons that were somehow turned to stone. 

Salladhor and Davos talk and Salladhor tells Davos that he knows he's been making friends with the anti-Lord of Light crowd. Davos decides not to confirm or deny and the conversation soon turns to Edric Storm. Davos tells Salladhor that Stannis wouldn't harm his own blood and the pirate responds by joking that Renly will be glad to know that this is true. Davos insists that Stannis is a just man and thinks that the difference in this situation is that Edric is innocent whereas Renly was a traitor. Salladhor says they'll have to wait and see and says that he'll be returning to the sea in the meantime. Before they part, Salladhor tells Davos to take care and cautions him about the new friends he's been making.

Maester Pylos has been teaching Davos how to read, so Davos goes over to see him and finds him finishing up giving the day's lessons for Devan, Edric, and Shireen. The kids chat with Davos for a bit and Shireen tells him that they've been learning about King Daeron the First. This gets Edric to want to brag a bit about his own father's bravery, so Maeester Pylos gently tells Edric that Robert suffered defeats as well just like any other man. 

Once Davos and Pylos are alone, Davos asks to be given a letter so that he can practice his reading. He starts reading a letter that was sent from the Night's Watch that indicates Mormont and his party were slain by a host of wildlings led by the King beyond the Wall. Davos asks if Stannis has seen this letter and Pylos says that the letter was first given to Alester Florent who went over its contents with Selyse. When Pylos asked Alester if he should send a raven back in reply, Alester's response was that Stannis doesn't have enough men to fight his own cause, so there's no way that he's going to be able to send any of them to fight against a band of wildlings. 

Davos is unsettled by the contents of the letter from the Night's Watch and thinks back to what Melisandre said about the god whose name must not be spoken and how it seems like another Long Night is approaching. Pylos asks Davos if he's feeling unwell, and Davos realizes that some part of him feels frightened. 

I am frightened, Maester, he might have said. Davos was remembering a tale Salladhor Saan had told him, of how Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer by thrusting it through the heart of the wife he loved. He slew his wife to fight the dark. If Stannis is Azor Ahai come again, does that mean Edric Storm must play the part of Nissa Nissa? “I was thinking, Maester. My pardons.”

Davos asks for Pylos to give him a different letter to read. He says that he finds the contents of the Night's Watch letter to be too troubling. 

[nodorothyparker]

While his court may be smaller now, the opening of this chapter is every bit as claustrophobic and demented as the prologue of Clash of Kings.  Every time one of these people says anything that almost sounds like they're seeing reason and making sense like when Stannis dryly says it sounds like Walder Frey and not everybody's favorite fire god was responsible for the carnage of the Red Wedding, they then go off on oddball ravings about prophecy and leeches and stone dragons and you can almost feel Davos rolling his eyes at the whole lot of them.  Except of course that he wouldn't because he's so loyal.  I mean, really Selyse?  The Targaryens with all their extra special specialness couldn't raise dragons but you think the man who has to playact Lightbringer with the medieval equivalents of lighter fluid and an oven mitt can?

There's some interesting parallels here.  Stannis tells what has to be at least the third or fourth story in the series so far about mistaking someone for a king who wasn't one.  It probably would have pleased Tywin, or maybe not since we know he doesn't have a particularly high opinion of Stannis either.  And yet Stannis' argument about the worth of one bastard boy's life against a kingdom doesn't really sound that fundamentally different from Tywin's justification in the last chapter that it's better to kill a dozen men at dinner than 10,000 in battle.  They're each giving what they probably think sounds like a high-minded answer with the bonus that it gets them what they want and doesn't require either of them to personally sacrifice anything.   Stannis of course is operating out of a place of pure desperation though because he has few men or resources and his persistence in thinking he's still a contender in any position to be offering pardons to the Iron Islanders, for example, comes off like a laughable bit of wishful thinking.

Despite that, there's something so wonderfully endearing about the earnestness with which Davos takes the job of king's hand.  He's trying so very hard to do what he thinks the job entails and worrying that he isn't up to the task because of his low origins, yet he's honest at least to himself that Stannis isn't really king of much of anything at the moment to even be the hand of.  The book version of him learning to read isn't as sweet as the show version of learning from Shireen, but I like it just the same with it making him feel both very young and very old.   I love how the not recent letter from the Wall that will eventually spur their move north just happens to be laying ignored in what's now a pile of practice reading material.

Edited January 22, 2017 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

On 1/20/2017 at 0:42 PM, Avaleigh said:

Selyse tells Stannis that if Edric is out of the picture that she'll suddenly be able to give him the sons he desires. 

Do Stannis and Selyse not understand how babies are made? Even with a blood-magic fertility boost, he'd still have to physically impregnate her. Or does she think the curse of Robert defiling their bed is what's somehow keeping Stannis from sleeping with her more often? For Stan's part, I'm pretty sure he's said something like "until Selyse finally gives me a son" in reference to Renly, and then Shireen, being his heir, as if this is something Selyse could do all on her own with no increase in their yearly marital relations. Assuming he does understand why there's an expectation of marital relations, I'd say Stannis failing to do his marital duty in a useful way is proof enough that his life is not totally ruled by duty and law.

That moment where Stannis thinks about how cool it'd be to have to his own dragon is even more proof that he has human desires and ambitions and isn't just trying to be king out of a robotic desire to obey the rule of law and protect the realm. I don't think he would have burned Edric or any other innocent for purely selfish desires just to get a dragon, but it's notable that this part of the argument is what gets a reaction from him while he spends the rest of the time mostly just telling Mel/Selyse/Axell to shut up and stop pestering him. In this moment he's not making utilitarian calculations about Edric's life and probably not even really thinking of the reality of killing Edric, just agreeing that a dragon does sound pretty appealing.

However, when he is really contemplating this reality with Davos he is doing a cost-benefit analysis of ends justifying the means for the Greater Good, not just to win his kingdom by defeating rebels and fulfill his role as king, but to save his kingdom by defeating the Others and fulfill his role as messiah, to "sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark". That's the difference between his argument and Tywin's. I don't believe Tywin was really motivated by the Greater Good of the Realm regarding the Red Wedding. He would prefer a stable state with no war to deal with, but his motivation for ruthlessness is about Lannister dominance, which is why he never hesitates to break the king's peace with his atrocities for personal reasons.  And while I do think Stannis wants to be king because he wants recognition, he has no illusions about the crown bringing him happiness and believes that ultimately, his own life will be sacrificed too. (Though, given the fatal crown imagery, I wonder if his vision was actually of Viserys's past death, and he misinterpreted it as a Stannis-centric omen the way Mel misinterprets her visions.)

The problem with Stan's reasoning is that he can't be sure that sacrificing any royal child, (Edric or later, Shireen) would save the realm, winning the War of Five Kings and the War for the Dawn through stone dragons and full AAR powers activation. Even with all three "false kings" dead, it doesn't prove the leeches killed them. Mel has bragged about foreseeing the future, including deaths and possible deaths, so it shouldn't take a genius to suspect she already knew of these three deaths when she came up with the leech gimmick. But even if the deaths were caused by burning king's-blood-in-leeches, isn't it still a leap to think that proves burning a king's child will conjure a frickin' dragon out of stone? Mel talks about death paying for life but with the leeches she's supposedly just using blood to pay for death. She's already proven with Renly and Penrose that there is a way to magically conjure death but she's shown no aptitude for using death to conjure dragons out of stone. The other flaw in his argument is the claim of a true sacrifice never being easy despite Stannis trying to make Edric's death easier for himself by refusing to spend time with the boy and get to know him and refusing to even speak his name or really think of him as a person. Edric's sacrifice would not be comparable to Nissa Nissa or "a man who offers the only cow he owns", as Mel puts it. He's a nephew Stannis barely knows but does resent as Robert's bastard. (Shireen, otoh....)

Anyway, back to the dragons, I love Stannis's memory of going to court for the first time and seeing the skulls and Tywin on the throne. The past is such a contrast to the present-day we've seen in the books so far, starting with l'il Bobby and Stannis holding hands, the implication of the Baratheons having good relations with the court of their Targ cousins, and l'il Stan admiring the kingly Tywin on the throne, a future enemy whose grandson is a usurper Stannis desperately wants off his throne. I also like knowing that Robert had the skulls shut away in the dungeons because he couldn't bear to have them destroyed. I'm guessing young Bobby, who was impressed by the fearsome skulls, was proud to have dragon-riding ancestors, and like Edric in this chapter, probably liked the dragonless Daeron the Young Dragon too. As an adult, and a conqueror-king himself, it could be that his Targ-hatred only extended to the recent Targs in his way, Aerys and Rhaegar and their immediate family, not the past Targ draconic glory.

[John Potts]

On ‎11‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 2:44 PM, Lady S. said:

Could be Gregor just felt like adding some extra violence for the hell of it, but I think it likely Elia tried to protect her baby and he decided to punish her for it after he'd smashed Aegon's head in

Going back a few posts, this makes me pretty certain that Varys' Aegon is indeed a fake: even if Elia felt bad about a random baby Varys had provided being slaughtered, it's doubtful she would have made more than a token protest at the Mountain killing it (assuming the account is essentially accurate of how Elia & Aegon's deaths went down).

 

12 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Even with all three "false kings" dead, it doesn't prove the leeches killed them. Mel has bragged about foreseeing the future, including deaths and possible deaths, so it shouldn't take a genius to suspect she already knew of these three deaths when she came up with the leech gimmick.

I've always assumed that while Mel may be many things, she's completely sincere: even if she's wrong in her interpretations of events (eg. believing Stannis needed to defeat Renly or he'd lose on Blackwater: "Renly" does turn up to defeat him when he'd nearly won), her powers (or the Red God) do cause real world effects. I think it's reasonable to suppose that Mel's powers are completely real, she's just not always right about they come into effect.

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, John Potts said:

I've always assumed that while Mel may be many things, she's completely sincere: even if she's wrong in her interpretations of events (eg. believing Stannis needed to defeat Renly or he'd lose on Blackwater: "Renly" does turn up to defeat him when he'd nearly won), her powers (or the Red God) do cause real world effects. I think it's reasonable to suppose that Mel's powers are completely real, she's just not always right about they come into effect.

She is sincere in her religious belief and faith in Stannis as AAR and she does have plenty of real power, but her own PoV makes it clear she also used a bag of tricks to make herself seem even more powerful. Mel is pretty big on theatrical displays and does not mind empty gestures or the trappings of power. And someone who magically generates a beautiful, youthful body for herself or uses a glamour to disguise other people is pretty good with pulling off illusions. I think she fully believes burning Edric will achieve the result she promises but that doesn't mean she wouldn't use misleading methods to make Stannis believe that. You can't jump straight into divine child sacrifice to wake a dragon with a practical-minded former atheist like Stannis, there has to be some way to lead him in. I think her powers are true if she foresaw three future deaths, but she used that true power for her own purposes to put on a show, all in a genuine desire to help Stannis fulfill his destiny and save the world. The Red and Purple Wedding conspiracies were already planned before the leech show (and Euron had probably already hired the FM to off Balon) so I don't think the Freys/Roose or the Tyrells needed any burnt leeches to pull off their regicides. 

Btw, isn't it just wild that pretty much everyone who follows the old gods or the Seven thinks Walder Frey is damned for the Red Wedding but Mel says he was doing the Lord's work? Also wild that Selyse blames the taint of adultery on her bridal bed for her lack of sons and thinks her husband's mistress has the way to fix this problem.

[nodorothyparker]

I've never doubted that Mel was sincere in her belief in the red god and the power that comes from that.  At times I've been with Davos in not being quite sure how much of what she did was real and how much of it might be tricks to further the illusion of her power in a means justify the end kind of thing, and it's fairly obvious that she's not above claiming credit for something that happened entirely independent of her and her powers if it furthers that end.  Until her POV chapter two books from now, I did periodically wonder if she truly believed Stannis was Azor Ahai despite the things that didn't quite line up or whether she saw a guy with a legitimate claim to the throne and a burning desire to be validated as the rightful chosen one to save the world and decided good enough, here's a guy she could work with in the big battle she's sure is coming.

Selyse's complete nonissue with red priestess Mel as the woman Stannis is sleeping with while blaming her seeming infertility on Robert's adultery in her bed is one of those bizarre sure, okay, whatever in the name of religion things.

[John Potts]

Sure, Mel isn't above using trickery to "enhance" her/the Red God's powers, but I don't think we can say she had nothing to do with the deaths of the three Kings. If her spell did nothing, she wouldn't have needed royal blood for her leeches, she could have used just any sacrifice (she'd have plenty to chose from). Yes, other people's plans were responsible for their deaths, but plans can go wrong: Sansa might not have worn the hairnet, Robb might have spotted the trap (or escaped like the Blackfish) though I can't see Balon evading a Faceless man. I'll admit that it's arguing after the facts, but it's pretty impressive that even after a big defeat on the Blackwater, the only one of the Four Kings still standing is Stannis (OK, Joffrey & Balon are still around at this point) - maybe Riley does have a hand in that (assuming he has hands!).

[WearyTraveler]

11 hours ago, John Potts said:

Sure, Mel isn't above using trickery to "enhance" her/the Red God's powers, but I don't think we can say she had nothing to do with the deaths of the three Kings. If her spell did nothing, she wouldn't have needed royal blood for her leeches, she could have used just any sacrifice (she'd have plenty to chose from). Yes, other people's plans were responsible for their deaths, but plans can go wrong: Sansa might not have worn the hairnet, Robb might have spotted the trap (or escaped like the Blackfish) though I can't see Balon evading a Faceless man. I'll admit that it's arguing after the facts, but it's pretty impressive that even after a big defeat on the Blackwater, the only one of the Four Kings still standing is Stannis (OK, Joffrey & Balon are still around at this point) - maybe Riley does have a hand in that (assuming he has hands!).

I think what the OP was saying is that there's a possibility events developed as follows from Mel's POV:

1. MEL: I need to sacrifice this boy Edric to wake up the stone dragons
2. STAN: No way! He's my own blood, and only a boy!
3. Mel goes away and tries to figure out how to convince Stan to agree.  She looks into the flames and sees that three kings are about to die
4. MEL (in her head): Eureka! I'll make Stan believe my magic using King's blood can kill these three guys who are going to die anyway!
5. Mel goes to Stannis
6. STAN: I told you, no!
7. MEL: Let me prove to you the power of King's blood, would you allow me to leech the boy?
8. STAN:  mmmh, well, ok, I guess leeching won't cause him any harm...

[John Potts]

Well either interpretation is possible: the truth could be closer to either or both could be wrong. Until Word of God states something definitive (if ever) we won't know. I'm not denying that Mel has "used a bag of tricks to make herself seem even more powerful" (to quote Lady S), such as using the flaming sword (that burned Stannis' hand!) - it's all a question of degree. But it's not impossible that she's not only righteous, but in the Crapsack world of Westeros, right. After all, on pure utilitarian grounds, "what [is] the life of one bastard boy is against the entire kingdom?" Edric dies either way and maybe Davos is just being squeamish about something that has to be done - and preventing his sacrifice will doom thousands. We're obviously inclined to side with Davos (I do to - I'm not a monster!) but that doesn't make him right.

Edited January 27, 2017 by John Potts

[Avaleigh]

On 1/22/2017 at 11:16 PM, Lady S. said:

Do Stannis and Selyse not understand how babies are made? Even with a blood-magic fertility boost, he'd still have to physically impregnate her. Or does she think the curse of Robert defiling their bed is what's somehow keeping Stannis from sleeping with her more often? For Stan's part, I'm pretty sure he's said something like "until Selyse finally gives me a son" in reference to Renly, and then Shireen, being his heir, as if this is something Selyse could do all on her own with no increase in their yearly marital relations. Assuming he does understand why there's an expectation of marital relations, I'd say Stannis failing to do his marital duty in a useful way is proof enough that his life is not totally ruled by duty and law.

That moment where Stannis thinks about how cool it'd be to have to his own dragon is even more proof that he has human desires and ambitions and isn't just trying to be king out of a robotic desire to obey the rule of law and protect the realm. I don't think he would have burned Edric or any other innocent for purely selfish desires just to get a dragon, but it's notable that this part of the argument is what gets a reaction from him while he spends the rest of the time mostly just telling Mel/Selyse/Axell to shut up and stop pestering him. In this moment he's not making utilitarian calculations about Edric's life and probably not even really thinking of the reality of killing Edric, just agreeing that a dragon does sound pretty appealing.

However, when he is really contemplating this reality with Davos he is doing a cost-benefit analysis of ends justifying the means for the Greater Good, not just to win his kingdom by defeating rebels and fulfill his role as king, but to save his kingdom by defeating the Others and fulfill his role as messiah, to "sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark". That's the difference between his argument and Tywin's. I don't believe Tywin was really motivated by the Greater Good of the Realm regarding the Red Wedding. He would prefer a stable state with no war to deal with, but his motivation for ruthlessness is about Lannister dominance, which is why he never hesitates to break the king's peace with his atrocities for personal reasons.  And while I do think Stannis wants to be king because he wants recognition, he has no illusions about the crown bringing him happiness and believes that ultimately, his own life will be sacrificed too. (Though, given the fatal crown imagery, I wonder if his vision was actually of Viserys's past death, and he misinterpreted it as a Stannis-centric omen the way Mel misinterprets her visions.)

The problem with Stan's reasoning is that he can't be sure that sacrificing any royal child, (Edric or later, Shireen) would save the realm, winning the War of Five Kings and the War for the Dawn through stone dragons and full AAR powers activation. Even with all three "false kings" dead, it doesn't prove the leeches killed them. Mel has bragged about foreseeing the future, including deaths and possible deaths, so it shouldn't take a genius to suspect she already knew of these three deaths when she came up with the leech gimmick. But even if the deaths were caused by burning king's-blood-in-leeches, isn't it still a leap to think that proves burning a king's child will conjure a frickin' dragon out of stone? Mel talks about death paying for life but with the leeches she's supposedly just using blood to pay for death. She's already proven with Renly and Penrose that there is a way to magically conjure death but she's shown no aptitude for using death to conjure dragons out of stone. The other flaw in his argument is the claim of a true sacrifice never being easy despite Stannis trying to make Edric's death easier for himself by refusing to spend time with the boy and get to know him and refusing to even speak his name or really think of him as a person. Edric's sacrifice would not be comparable to Nissa Nissa or "a man who offers the only cow he owns", as Mel puts it. He's a nephew Stannis barely knows but does resent as Robert's bastard. (Shireen, otoh....)

Anyway, back to the dragons, I love Stannis's memory of going to court for the first time and seeing the skulls and Tywin on the throne. The past is such a contrast to the present-day we've seen in the books so far, starting with l'il Bobby and Stannis holding hands, the implication of the Baratheons having good relations with the court of their Targ cousins, and l'il Stan admiring the kingly Tywin on the throne, a future enemy whose grandson is a usurper Stannis desperately wants off his throne. I also like knowing that Robert had the skulls shut away in the dungeons because he couldn't bear to have them destroyed. I'm guessing young Bobby, who was impressed by the fearsome skulls, was proud to have dragon-riding ancestors, and like Edric in this chapter, probably liked the dragonless Daeron the Young Dragon too. As an adult, and a conqueror-king himself, it could be that his Targ-hatred only extended to the recent Targs in his way, Aerys and Rhaegar and their immediate family, not the past Targ draconic glory.

Regarding the stuff in bold--Stannis's memory of going to court might have been my favorite part of the chapter. I love the little detail of him holding hands with Robert because it is surprising and I mostly think of them as not getting along even as children, but clearly that wasn't the case. 

Good call on how Daeron might have been a favorite of Robert's too. 

When I think of the Baratheon boys mistaking Tywin as the king and thinking that he's "noble" the way that kings should be, it reminds me of Jon's first impression of Jaime where he thinks that Jaime looks like everything a king should be. 

Jon VII is coming up. 

[Avaleigh]

Jon VII

Jon, Donal Noye, and the rest of the men of the Night’s Watch are doing what they can to prepare for the attack that’s coming from the wildlings. Jon’s leg is causing him extreme pain but he still insists on fighting. Some of the people of Mole’s Town will be fighting alongside the men of the Night’s Watch, but the defenders of the Wall are still very much outnumbered. Jon thinks about the villagers who have chosen not to flee and wonders if the Thenns might possibly spare them.

The wildlings don’t attack until nightfall, and Jon is positioned in the round tower where he fights with a longbow alongside a boy from Oldtown named Satin. Jon prays to the old gods that one of his arrows will find the Magnar of Thenn.

There’s a moment where Ygritte is briefly in Jon’s sights, but he can’t bring himself to shoot at her.  Parts of the castle begin to take fire including the common hall and east stables.

When the Thenns finally arrive and join in the attack, the scene becomes more and more chaotic. The defenders of the Wall are starting to lose men, and the villagers from Mole’s Town begin to break and throw down their weapons.

Just as Magnar and the Thenns are feeling victorious, a warhorn sounds and Donal Noye gives the signal for the men to ignite the sacks, kegs, and casks that are on the lower staircase of the Wall. The ensuing fire forces the Thenns to either jump or fall to their deaths, and those who don’t jump end up being crushed by several tons of ice. Jon has a moment where he thinks about how the Wall ultimately defends itself.

Jon and Satin head down to the yard and Jon decides that he’s going to look for Ygritte. He finds her on the ground with an arrow in her chest. She’s still alive and opens her eyes when he goes to kneel beside her.  She asks him if Castle Black is a “proper castle” and seems pleased at least that she was able to finally get a glimpse of a real castle.  Jon tells Ygritte that she’ll see other castles and tells her that Maester Aemon is going to patch up her wound. He promises her that she won’t die and she replies by telling him that he “knows nothing”.

[Lady S.]

11 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

There’s a moment where Ygritte is briefly in Jon’s sights, but he can’t bring himself to shoot at her.  

"His fingers wouldn't part" and he counts it as a miss, even though his fingers never refuse to work in the rest of the battle, even when they're worn and bloody. Sure, Jonny. Too conflicted and mindful of the mission to admit even in his own thoughts that he was hesitant to kill his lover the first chance he got. I like how he's praying for a shot at the Magnar and the other Thenns not really out of a particular bloodlust for Styr but because if he has to fight wildlings he wants to kill those he hates and let the others kill the wildlings that he got to know.

[WearyTraveler]

My favourite thing about this chapter is how Jon remembers all the stuff that Ned used to tell him and Rob.  It provides us with a little window into how they were raised and how Ned trained them both equally.  Jon certainly has his hang-ups about being a bastard, but I don't think his feelings developed out of something Ned said or did; when he remembers the things that hurt him growing up, it was always what someone else said or did, sometimes his "brothers and sisters", who never appeared to have the intention of hurting him.  They were just repeating what they'd heard someone else say.

[Avaleigh]

Bran IV

Bran, Hodor, and the Reeds have finally reached the Wall and are at the Nightfort. Bran is fearful and thinks it feels like they’ve reached the end of the world. He’s preoccupied with disturbing dreams that he’s had and has found them so upsetting that he doesn’t feel comfortable confiding in Meera or Jojen. Meera can tell that something is wrong and Bran feels that if he doesn’t talk about his dream, that it’ll somehow keep it from being true. He seems to know that Robb and Grey Wind are dead.

Jojen tells Bran that there isn’t anything there that will hurt them, but Bran isn’t convinced and starts thinking about the stories that Old Nan would tell him about the Nightfort.

The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan’s scariest stories. It was here that Night’s King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the ‘prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark.

Bran thinks about how he once asked Benjen if the stories about the Nightfort are true and how Benjen would neither confirm nor deny.

The gate to the Nightfort has been sealed just as Bran told the Reeds that it would be.  Bran is still annoyed that they didn’t go to Castle Black instead and Jojen again reminds Bran of the reasons why they didn’t. Bran is concerned about the wildlings who wanted to kill Jon and the discussion turns to the night Bran slipped into Summer’s skin and ended up helping Jon.  One of the wildlings shot Summer with an arrow during the scene and the pain was strong enough to drive Bran out of Summer’s body. Not only did the pain drive him out of Summer's body, but it's kept him from being able to return to it without physically suffering. It takes Summer about a day to return to the others, and Meera is the one to take out the arrow and tend to Summer’s wound.

They discuss how they’re going to get through the Wall and Meera decides that she wants to climb the Wall so that she can see what’s on the other side. Bran feels a pang and wishes that he could be the one to make the climb.

Jojen, Bran, and Hodor go exploring while Meera climbs the Wall. Rats are all over the Nightfort and Summer catches on that is as big as a cat. Jojen wants to go down into the cellars of the castle, but Bran and Hodor don’t want to and Bran suspects that they’ll find worse than rats down there.

Bran gives a little history on the Nightfort. It’s the largest and oldest of the castles on the Wall and is said to be haunted by ghosts including the ghosts of the seventy-nine sentinels. 

Meera returns from her climb and Bran begins thinking about the story of the Night’s King.  The Night’s King was the thirteenth commander of the Night’s Watch. He was said to be a man who knew no fear and according to Old Nan, this was his biggest flaw. Old Nan said that a woman was the downfall of the Night’s King. The woman is described as having eyes like blue stars and pale white skin that is as cold as ice.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Some people claim that the thirteenth commander of the Night’s Watch was from House Bolton or one of the other northern houses, but Old Nan always said that the Night’s King was a Stark and would tease Bran by suggesting that his first name might have been Brandon. 

The group decides to spend the night in the kitchens and this makes Bran think about the story of the Rat Cook baking a prince into a pie. There’s a well in the kitchens and when they peer inside, they’re unable to see the bottom. Hodor tosses a piece of slate into the well and when it splashes into the water it sounds as though something is thrashing around. Bran feels uneasy and doesn’t think they should stay there, but Meera laughs off his nervousness and goes with Hodor to find some wood.

While Meera makes dinner, Bran thinks again about the story of the Rat Cook serving the Andal King a pie with the king’s son baked inside. Afterwards, the gods transformed the cook into a giant white rat who could only eat its young; the story makes it clear that the gods weren’t punishing the cook for taking vengeance, but were instead punishing him for violating the rules of hospitality.

They all go to sleep after dinner and Bran does his best to try not to think any more about the Rat Cook or any other scary stories that Old Nan told him. He suddenly hears the sound of footsteps and starts thinking about some psychopath with an axe from one of Old Nan’s stories. He also remembers a time back at Winterfell when Sansa told him that “the demons of the dark” wouldn’t be able to touch him if he hid beneath his blanket. He reminds himself that he’s almost a grown man and drags his body over to Meera so that he can wake her up.

Meera grabs her weapons and Bran decides to warg into Hodor’s body to help her fight. Bran thinks about how difficult it is to warg into Hodor in comparison with Summer. He can tell that Hodor is scared, and Hodor nearly vomits when Bran first takes control of his body.

A huge black shape climbs out of the well and begins to shriek and screech once it becomes caught in Meera’s net. Bran is so scared when the shape comes out of the well that he ends up back in his own body. The black shape on the ground starts pleading with them and Meera demands to know the man’s identity.

The man turns out to be Sam and Jojen recognizes from his clothing that Sam is a member of the Night’s Watch. Sam confirms that he’s a member of the Night’s Watch and asks to be released from the net. Bran briefly wonders if Sam could be the three-eyed crow, but Sam quickly dispels him of that notion.

Gilly eventually introduces herself and asks Jojen if he’s “the one” that Coldhands told them about.

Sam tells the group about a hidden gate called the Black Gate and says that he’ll have to take them to it because the gate will only open for a man of the Night’s Watch. Jojen becomes more curious about Coldhands and Gilly gives the group a few more details about the mystery man who saved them from the wights. Jojen asks why Coldhands didn’t travel with them through the gate and Sam explains that he can’t for some reason and it has to do with the old spells and magic that have been woven into the Wall.

Jojen tells Sam that Bran is the one he’s looking for and when Sam looks at Bran and sees that he can’t walk, he realizes that Bran is Jon’s brother. Sam tells Bran about how Jon went on a ranging with Qhorin Halfhand, but never came back. Bran tells Sam about seeing Jon with the wildlings and says that Jon managed to escape and was likely heading for Castle Black. Sam tells Bran that Jon mentioned how all of the Stark siblings have direwolves and says that he knows Ghost. Sam allows Summer to sniff and lick his hand, and this is when Bran makes up his mind and decides that they’ll go with Sam.

Gilly and the baby stay behind in the kitchens while Sam escorts the others to the Black Gate. The door of the Black gate is a White weirwood with a face on it and when they approach it, the eyes open and the door asks “Who are you?”

“I am the sword in the darkness,” Samwell Tarly said. “I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.”

The door tells them that they’re allowed to pass and Sam steps aside so that he can wave the others through.

[John Potts]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 1:00 AM, Avaleigh said:

Hodor tosses a piece of slate into the well and when it splashes into the water it sounds as though something is thrashing around. Bran feels uneasy and doesn’t think they should stay there, but Meera laughs off his nervousness and goes with Hodor to find some wood.

Funnily enough, amidst all the murder, treachery & cannibalism, this was the bit that caught my eye, because I couldn't help thinking of Lord of the Rings (when Pippin drops a stone down the well in Moria), even if here the result is decidedly more benign (partly because I saw Fellowship yesterday). I wonder if GRRM wrote this as a deliberate homage?

ETA: Not to mention the whole, "Speak friend and enter" bit from Moria, too.

Edited January 31, 2017 by John Potts

[Avaleigh]

13 hours ago, John Potts said:

Funnily enough, amidst all the murder, treachery & cannibalism, this was the bit that caught my eye, because I couldn't help thinking of Lord of the Rings (when Pippin drops a stone down the well in Moria), even if here the result is decidedly more benign (partly because I saw Fellowship yesterday). I wonder if GRRM wrote this as a deliberate homage?

I thought of that scene too.  

I have to say that I don't think I would have been able to handle sleeping in a place that had loads of rats and some of them are apparently as big as cats. The idea of exploring anything in that shit hole of a castle pretty much sounds like opposite of a fun time.  

I really enjoyed this chapter and in general, I have a lot more appreciation for Bran's chapters now that I'm reading them for the second time. I think that I must have done a fair amount of skimming because I definitely didn't recall the door actually speaking. It reminded me of Harry Potter and the passwords to the common rooms. 

I always love getting mentions of Old Nan's stories and the one about the Night's King might be my favorite. I really hope that we get clarification on who his corpse queen was. I'm assuming that she isn't going to be incorporated into the show, but I've always assumed that we'd learn more about her. It's especially interesting to think about now that we've seen from the show on how the Others were created. Did the children of the forest make one female Other? Did the Others make her? How is it that this female Other seems to have been able to live at the Wall for thirteen years if all of the spells and everything keep the Others on the other side? 

The other part of the Night's King story that I think is interesting is the mention of all of the sacrifices that he was making--it totally makes me think of Craster and I'm again wondering how some people are apparently able to come to arrangements with the Others while most people seem to be killed by them if they happen to be in the same vicinity. How did Craster ever communicate with them to know what they wanted? I also wonder why Craster's daughters aren't of any used to them when we know of at least one female Other. 

Regarding the story of the 79 sentinels--I wonder why they weren't beheaded? Surely these guys weren't the only men to desert their posts yet their punishment seems extra cruel. Then you have Ryswell's son being turned in by his own father--clearly this guy didn't know his father very well. 

Regarding Bran and Summer--I really liked the description of Bran thinking that attempting to warg into a wounded Summer was like trying to pick up a scalding hot pot with his bare hand in that his reaction is to instantly pull away. 

I did laugh at what Bran and everyone most be thinking when Sam admitted that he got lost trying to find something massive like the Wall. 

I kind of get why Meera climbed the Wall but honestly, what a dangerous and ultimately pointless exercise. Oh well, at least she got to wave to Orell the eagle.

I feel sorry for Hodor here. In terms of recapping it, I felt extra conscious of what a violation it really is. He's entering Hodor's body and using it for his own purpose and he doesn't seem too worked up over how it makes Hodor feel physically or mentally. It's obviously physically uncomfortable in addition to being frightening. Hodor's urge to puke nearly drives Bran from his body the moment that Bran first wargs into him. Bran is conscious of all of this but I don't recall him feeling particularly guilty about using Hodor in this way and I wonder if this is something that he thinks about or addresses in ADWD. 

Interesting that Bran seems to know about Robb and Grey Wind but doesn't know about his mother. 

[Lady S.]

Man, the Nightfort is such a great horror location, even moreso than Harrenhal. I love the talking weirwood door only responding to a NWman using his oath.(did it make a difference that Sam had already sworn his vows to a heart tree and adopted the old gods? Would other southerners be able to use this door?) The secret passage with a magical seal being underneath the weirwood growing through the kitchen nicely foreshadows Bran's destination in Bloodraven's tree-cave.

I wonder what the Night's King was sacrificing to the Others as the NW wouldn't have a ready supply of infants. Were they fathering bastards for the sole purpose of giving them to the Others? Was he just killing his brothers to be turned into wights? Were they offering up livestock like Craster did when he didn't have a son on hand? (Speaking of whom, this story is the only time we hear about a female WW and I'm now wondering if they developed a gender imbalance because they came to rely on Craster for reproduction and he only offered male babies.) This story's creepiness certainly sounds like something a Bolton would do but the utter erasure of the Night King's name from history suggests a family trying to save their reputation and the cover-up being done by people with enough power to do it completely which could mean he really was brother to the Stark who fought him, as Old Nan says, or just that it was one of their loyal bannermen like the Umbers.

I thought Meera's climb up the Wall was a big, wasted effort too. I wonder if this was more of GRRM's scale problem, because taking a staircase up and down 700 ft reads like she was scouting up a hill or climbing a tree, no big deal. 

I assume we're going to be talking about the abuse of Hodor more in Bran's Dance chapters, so at this point I'll just note that Bran only considers trying it again because he was afraid and wanted to help Meera with what he thought was an actual monster. Understandable enough intentions lead down a dangerous road because no one is teaching this child how to be responsible with all his power. 

6 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Interesting that Bran seems to know about Robb and Grey Wind but doesn't know about his mother. 

That would make sense if it actually was Summer's dream, as he calls it. Summer would be connected to Grey Wind whose last moments would have involved distress about his human. It's sad to read about Bran praying for Jon and Summer after Queenscrown knowing that prayer was answered but his other big brother and that brother's direwolf were both doomed.

[John Potts]

It's definitely a scale problem - 700ft is roughly half the eight of the Empire Sate Building so climbing it isn't something you'd just run up (particularly as the footing will almost certainly be awful). To use another LotR comparison, this should be a gruelling climb, more like the stairs leading up to Shelob's Lair (Cirith Ungol), not something you can just breeze up.

Pure speculation here, but maybe the Others are like bees and have a single queen, but require human males to breed? Furthermore, I'm presuming that the Others will only accept sacrifices of babies for the same reason the only human Bran can warg into Hodor: a fully formed mind is "too complex" for The Others to control, they need them "unformed" ones to convert.

Further speculation (not original to me, but I forget where I saw it): Maybe the previous Long Night was NOT resolved by a massive fight between Azor Ahai & The Others, but by some sort of peace treaty, probably involving a marriage between the two sides. Further speculating I would say that the human side was a Stark and the saying "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is a condition of this treaty: so long a the children of the Night's King and the children of the Lord of Winterfell are in charge either side of the Wall, there will be peace (this was of course broken once Bran & Rickon left, so probably more really bad things will happen). The other possibility is the "bridegroom" was a Bolton and it's having "Other" blood that makes Roose so pale and have particularly striking eyes - and possibly all the OTT evil rumours about House Bolton spring from that fact. If that's true, then maybe the "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell" saying is a corruption of the original "There must always be a descendent of the Others (ie. a Bolton) South of the Wall". This is still true in the Books (so far) but should the Bolton line die out... bad things might happen (like the Wall coming down).

[Avaleigh]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Man, the Nightfort is such a great horror location, even moreso than Harrenhal. I love the talking weirwood door only responding to a NWman using his oath.(did it make a difference that Sam had already sworn his vows to a heart tree and adopted the old gods? Would other southerners be able to use this door?) The secret passage with a magical seal being underneath the weirwood growing through the kitchen nicely foreshadows Bran's destination in Bloodraven's tree-cave.

I wonder what the Night's King was sacrificing to the Others as the NW wouldn't have a ready supply of infants. Were they fathering bastards for the sole purpose of giving them to the Others? Was he just killing his brothers to be turned into wights? Were they offering up livestock like Craster did when he didn't have a son on hand? (Speaking of whom, this story is the only time we hear about a female WW and I'm now wondering if they developed a gender imbalance because they came to rely on Craster for reproduction and he only offered male babies.) This story's creepiness certainly sounds like something a Bolton would do but the utter erasure of the Night King's name from history suggests a family trying to save their reputation and the cover-up being done by people with enough power to do it completely which could mean he really was brother to the Stark who fought him, as Old Nan says, or just that it was one of their loyal bannermen like the Umbers.

I thought Meera's climb up the Wall was a big, wasted effort too. I wonder if this was more of GRRM's scale problem, because taking a staircase up and down 700 ft reads like she was scouting up a hill or climbing a tree, no big deal. 

I assume we're going to be talking about the abuse of Hodor more in Bran's Dance chapters, so at this point I'll just note that Bran only considers trying it again because he was afraid and wanted to help Meera with what he thought was an actual monster. Understandable enough intentions lead down a dangerous road because no one is teaching this child how to be responsible with all his power. 

That would make sense if it actually was Summer's dream, as he calls it. Summer would be connected to Grey Wind whose last moments would have involved distress about his human. It's sad to read about Bran praying for Jon and Summer after Queenscrown knowing that prayer was answered but his other big brother and that brother's direwolf were both doomed.

I assumed that he was sacrificing his own men but now I wonder. Surely Mole's Town existed and these guys weren't celibate in the early days. I guess they could have given over babies that way.

I can't imagine that it was Craster's first choice to only offer male babies. That sort of implies that he's the one in control of the situation and I feel like the Others were the ones who were in control of that set up. If they'd wanted female babies too, then I'm sure that Craster would have done what he could to keep himself alive. If nothing else, you'd think he'd be inclined to keep some sons around to help with the heavy work load. 

Also, why would the White Walkers rely only on Craster for production when there are other wildlings to choose from? (Wildlings who aren't producing incestuous kids.) I'm still not convinced that Craster is the only guy to ever come to an arrangement with the Others. 

3 hours ago, John Potts said:

It's definitely a scale problem - 700ft is roughly half the eight of the Empire Sate Building so climbing it isn't something you'd just run up (particularly as the footing will almost certainly be awful). To use another LotR comparison, this should be a gruelling climb, more like the stairs leading up to Shelob's Lair (Cirith Ungol), not something you can just breeze up.

Pure speculation here, but maybe the Others are like bees and have a single queen, but require human males to breed? Furthermore, I'm presuming that the Others will only accept sacrifices of babies for the same reason the only human Bran can warg into Hodor: a fully formed mind is "too complex" for The Others to control, they need them "unformed" ones to convert.

Further speculation (not original to me, but I forget where I saw it): Maybe the previous Long Night was NOT resolved by a massive fight between Azor Ahai & The Others, but by some sort of peace treaty, probably involving a marriage between the two sides. Further speculating I would say that the human side was a Stark and the saying "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is a condition of this treaty: so long a the children of the Night's King and the children of the Lord of Winterfell are in charge either side of the Wall, there will be peace (this was of course broken once Bran & Rickon left, so probably more really bad things will happen). The other possibility is the "bridegroom" was a Bolton and it's having "Other" blood that makes Roose so pale and have particularly striking eyes - and possibly all the OTT evil rumours about House Bolton spring from that fact. If that's true, then maybe the "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell" saying is a corruption of the original "There must always be a descendent of the Others (ie. a Bolton) South of the Wall". This is still true in the Books (so far) but should the Bolton line die out... bad things might happen (like the Wall coming down).

Yeah, Meera isn't exhausted at all. It's like she went for a freaking jog for a couple of miles.

I'm guessing that the Night's King never got the female WW pregnant. The description of the Night's King giving the woman 'his soul as well' instantly made me think of Stannis. It's not exactly the same but I get similar vibes for sure.  

The main reason I don't really buy the peace treaty theory (as described above) is that the White Walkers are already killing humans in the opening pages of the first book. What's their problem if there are Starks at Winterfell and things are (reasonably) stable? It can't be the issue of humans being on the other side of the Wall because they've apparently been there since the Wall went up in the first place. 

Also, if there was a marriage union between the humans and the Others then it would have had to have been with a female human and a male Other since that's the only union that would have produced children, if Old Nan is to be believed. I can't really see people going for that. 

Regarding the Boltons--prior to the last couple of seasons of the show, I was more willing to consider the idea that the Boltons might have something to do with the Others or a the resolution of the Long Night, but now that both Boltons are gone and we never got any drops about Roose's weirdness on the show, I'm guessing that there aren't going to be any deeper reveals on that score. 

Also, even with Roose and his sons dead, are we really to believe that there aren't any people south of the Wall with Bolton blood in their veins? How pure does it have to be? These guys are like the Umbers when it comes to that 'first night' crap, so it's hard for me to believe that their bloodline has totally died out.  

I keep having to remind myself that the Long Night happened before the events of the Night's King. So here's proof that the Others weren't defeated yet everyone acts like they haven't been seen since the Long Night. 

It really was stupid of the Night's Watch to erase all records of this guy. This is the kind of stuff that's good to not forget so that it doesn't happen again. 

[John Potts]

Fair point on the fact there must be other Boltons around. I'm not wedded to any of these theories - the only thing I think is significant is the number of times we're told "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell". Now maybe that just means "Don't leave your home base undefended," (Robb!) but it seems to me there must be more to it than that, but even there I may well be wrong.

I also feel that the early Night's Watch Commanders probably had a higher turnover than later ones (particularly if they were still battling the Others) so it might not take that long to get to the 13th commander - say less than 50 years. That would mean the gap between the Building of the Wall and the Night's King would be in living memory of the Old Nans of Westeros - and maybe with a seemingly unending war, they were prepared to contemplate a radical solution. Evidently there must be some way to communicate with the Others, given Craster (and presumably the Night King too) came to a deal with them, so there must be more to the Others than just being mindless Ice Zombies.

Edited January 31, 2017 by John Potts

[Lady S.]

14 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I can't imagine that it was Craster's first choice to only offer male babies. That sort of implies that he's the one in control of the situation and I feel like the Others were the ones who were in control of that set up. If they'd wanted female babies too, then I'm sure that Craster would have done what he could to keep himself alive. If nothing else, you'd think he'd be inclined to keep some sons around to help with the heavy work load. 

Well, I don't mean that the Others couldn't have gotten girl babies if they wanted them, but if they had enough boy babies they'd probably get by. If, as I believe, they can't breed on their own, then a gender imbalance really isn't an issue. Craster being to blame for the imbalance was just a passing thought, easier to say they only needed one female WW. I can't imagine why the Others would have more use for sheep than girl babies. The fact that he was even offering sheep and they were accepted makes me think there wasn't any direct deal where he knew exactly what they wanted. I always assumed the incestuous slavery was the reason he only offered male babies, not the other way around. All those daughters are extra mouths he doesn't need and yet he's giving away food sources rather than losing any girl babies. If it was about survival and not the incest, I expect he'd practice female infanticide even if the Others didn't want them. No man needs an unlimited supply of wives and daughters with a limited supply of food. Gilly's certainty that a daughter would be safe while saying he was desperate for a sacrifice sounds like she was raised to believe he wanted all girl babies to survive, and I don't think Gilly had any naive illusions about her father. I think he started leaving his sons out to die of exposure and the Others took them or else there was a tradition of offering sons to the Others and that appealed to Craster's incest compulsion, not that the Others demanded boy babies with sheep as a substitute.

I think the treaty theories are tinfoil from people who can't accept that the Others are straight-up villains. Waymar Royce and that bear at the Fist never broke any treaties. And if "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" has any deeper, supernatural meaning it's probably about being able to protect Winterfell and the North against the forces of Winter, including the Others, the same way the NWmen are part of the magic of the Wall, not keeping up a line of Other/human half-breeds. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that Bran and Rickon's departure marked the first Stark-free day in Winterfell's history. The World Book says the Boltons had sacked Winterfell twice before, which would have been post-Long Night, as the Stark dynasty in Winterfell started around the same time as the NW. (The show has the Boltons gone and two Starks back in Winterfell by now, after already having a Stark in Winterfell for most of s5 and Rickon there for most of s6.) The Night's King sounds more like he was in thrall to his WW wife and was allowed to use the Others' magic for their purposes. I doubt he could have betrayed her or broken any deal even if he wanted to. As you say, it doesn't sound like they successfully reproduced. Looking at that and the situation with Craster, where they turn human babies into WWs instead of making their own baby WWs, is why I don't think they can reproduce sexually.

Anyways, as a Starkling stan, I love the memory of Sansa telling Bran he'd be safe under his blankets from the demons in the dark, making me imagine her comforting him after a nightmare or reassuring him after one of Old Nan's scary stories. 

It's so weird to realize Bran has only 4 chapters in this book and they end well before most everyone else's, with the obvious exception of his mother's PoV. 2 of those chapters, half of his Storm PoV, had nothing happen to advance the plot, just traveling and coded exposition about the Harrenhal tourney, which is only indirectly related to Bran. In the first book he had more chapters than either of his sisters and the second he had the final chapter. This shows that Bran's story is the only one which did not really grow in the telling as GRRM's "gardening" took off from the original trilogy, and that the fantasy hero part of his story is pretty underwritten imo, as his chapters start drying out here as soon as he's left Winterfell.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys V

Dany and her army are outside of the gates of Meereen and Dany is deciding how best to penetrate the city. Her army now consists of some eighty thousand people but less than a quarter of those people are actual soldiers. The others are former slaves and Dany knows that it’s only a matter of time before her host begins to starve unless they take the city.

The Hero of Meereen has ridden outside of the city gates and wants to challenge one of the besiegers to single combat. The commander of the Second Sons, Brown Ben Plumm, gives Dany some background info on the Hero of Meereen while the Hero goes out of his way to verbally taunt Dany and her host. When the Hero pisses in Dany’s general direction, Daario volunteers to be the one to challenge him but Dany decides that Daario is as valuable to her as her bloodriders are. She ultimately decides that Strong Belwas may have the honor of taking on the Hero of Meereen. Rahkaro demands to know why Dany chooses Belwas, so Dany explains why she thinks choosing Belwas is the best choice.

“Strong Belwas was a slave here in the fighting pits. If this highborn Oznak should fall to such the Great Masters will be shamed, while if he wins... well, it is a poor victory for one so noble, one that Meereen can take no pride in.” And unlike Ser Jorah, Daario, Brown Ben, and her three bloodriders, the eunuch did not lead troops, plan battles, or give her counsel. He does nothing but eat and boast and bellow at Arstan. Belwas was the man she could most easily spare. And it was time she learned what sort of protector Magister Illyrio had sent her.

The spectators inside of the gates of Meereen are excited when Belwas steps out to meet their Hero and when Dany sees that Belwas isn’t wearing armor of any kind, she begins to question whether or not they ought to have at least given him some chainmail. The Hero also has the advantage of being mounted and Arstan comments that if the Hero of Meereen were truly chivalrous then he’d dismount before the fight begins. When the Hero charges at Belwas, Dany fears that her fighter is about to be impaled but he manages to spin out of the way just in time to avoid the lance. When the Hero charges at Belwas for the third time, Belwas is able to strike at the mount so that the Hero is unseated. The Hero is able to pull out his sword and fight for a bit, but Belwas quickly overwhelms him and ends up decapitating the guy.

The defenders of the city begin firing crossbows at Belwas after he kills their hero and he responds by taking a shit in the direction of the city. Belwas loots the corpse of the Hero and returns to cheers and excitement from Dany’s Dothraki and Unsullied. Dany is concerned about the wound on Belwas’s chest because it reminds her of the wound that Drogo received before his death. She insists that Belwas allow the wound to be treated and refuses to meet with her captains and commanders in her pavilion until Belwas’s wound is cleaned, bound, and bandaged.

Dany speaks with her advisors about their options for taking the city. Jorah says that the city walls look very strong and that he doesn’t see any points of weakness. She’s also advised against attacking by the river or sea and is told that there’s no available wood to build siege towers. They also don’t have enough food and will starve before the people of Meereen do unless they take some sort of action.

When Dany asks Jorah point blank about what she should do, he tells her that she should leave Meereen be and concentrate on bringing her war to Westeros. He tells her that she went to Astapor so that she could buy an army. He says that she can’t free every slave in the world and thinks that she should save her fighting for Westeros. Dany doesn’t like the idea of leaving Meereen in defeat but Jorah and her bloodriders disagree that it would count as a defeat and say that the people of Meereen are acting like cowards.

Dany asks how she’ll be able to feed all of her people if they decide to make for Pentos rather than trying to conquer Meereen. Jorah admits that the former slaves will basically have to figure out how to feed themselves on their own or die. Dany doesn’t want to go through another Red Waste like experience and decides that there must be some way for them to get into the city.

Brown Ben Plumm suggests that they enter through the sewers, but Dany doesn’t think that the idea sounds promising. She asks for time to consider and tells the men to return to their duties. As Ben goes to leave, Viserion flies over to him and lands on his head and shoulder. Dany tells Ben that Viserion likes him and Ben claims that this is likely because he has a drop of dragon blood running through his veins. Dany is surprised to hear this and asks for further details. Ben claims that one of his ancestors married a dragon princess back in King Aegon’s day, but he doesn’t know which Aegon.

When Ben leaves, Dany starts thinking about who the other two dragonriders will be. She also finds herself thinking about Daario and wonders what it would be like to have him kiss her the way Jorah did when they were on the ship. She thinks that Daario is dangerous and cruel but wonders if she could ever grow to love him.  She considers what the consequences will be if she takes Daario into her bed and wonders if this will somehow make him one of the heads of the dragon. She also thinks about how upset Jorah will likely be and asks herself if she should just get on with it and marry both of them.

Dany decides to ride through the camps with Missandei and Arstan and spends some time observing her people. As she stops to make conversation with a pregnant woman, a man grabs Dany’s wrist and yanks her from her saddle. The man pulls out a sword and Dany realizes that it’s Mero. Missandei yells for help and a freedman tries to intervene, but the guy is quickly cut down by Mero. Mero asks if there’s anyone else who wants to challenge him, so Arstan steps up and kills Mero using only a wooden staff as a weapon.

Dany is frightened by how close she came to being killed and Arstan apologizes for not recognizing Mero sooner. Dany admits that she didn’t initially recognize Mero either and asks to be escorted back to her tent.

Jorah goes to see Dany and Dany asks him why he didn’t warn her that Mero of Braavos had escaped. Jorah is suspicious when he learns that Arstan the Squire killed Mero with a stick and asks to know Arstan’s real identity.

Arstan admits that he’s a knight and that he’s withheld the truth from Dany from the very beginning. Jorah finally realizes why Arstan looks so familiar and tells Dany that Arstan is known in the Seven Kingdoms as Barristan the Bold. Jorah tells Dany that Barristan was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard who betrayed her family and went on to serve the Usurper. Barristan thinks it’s rich for Jorah of all people to call him on his betrayal, but admits to Dany that he’d probably be serving in King’s Landing still if the boy on the throne hadn’t kicked him out of the Kingsguard and sent men after him to kill him. Barristan tells Dany that he knew in that moment that he needed to find his true king and die in his service. Jorah tells Barristan that he can grant his death wish, but Dany tells Jorah that she wants to hear Barristan out.

“It may be that I must die a traitor’s death,” Ser Barristan said. “If so, I should not die alone. Before I took Robert’s pardon I fought against him on the Trident. You were on the other side of that battle, Mormont, were you not?” He did not wait for an answer. “Your Grace, I am sorry I misled you. It was the only way to keep the Lannisters from learning that I had joined you. You are watched, as your brother was. Lord Varys reported every move Viserys made, for years. Whilst I sat on the small council, I heard a hundred such reports. And since the day you wed Khal Drogo, there has been an informer by your side selling your secrets, trading whispers to the Spider for gold and promises.”

Dany doesn’t believe it at first and tells Jorah to tell Barristan that there’s been no betrayal and that he’s never been an informer. Jorah admits that he was an informer, but claims that everything changed once he grew to love her. Dany asks Jorah how he could do it and asks him what it was that he was promised in return. Jorah tells her that Varys told him that he’d be able to go home and Dany thinks to herself that she was the one who was going to bring Jorah home.

Dany wonders if she should just have her dragons roast Jorah and Barristan there on the spot and asks the two men if all of the knights in Westeros are as false as they are. She orders them out of her sight and says they should leave before she sets her dragons on them. Barristan asks Dany where they should go.

“To hell, to serve King Robert.” Dany felt hot tears on her cheeks. Drogon screamed, lashing his tail back and forth. “The Others can have you both.” Go, go away forever, both of you, the next time I see your faces I’ll have your traitors’ heads off. She could not say the words, though. They betrayed me. But they saved me. But they lied. “You go...” My bear, my fierce strong bear, what will I do without him? And the old man, my brother’s friend. “You go... go...” Where? And then she knew.

[Avaleigh]

I really liked how Dany reasoned out selecting Belwas as her champion. It is surprising to me though that she already feels that Daario is as as valuable to her as her bloodriders. 

Jorah's arrogance here is pretty breathtaking. Just the way that he thinks that he suddenly that he has the right to kill Barristan on Dany's behalf for the apparently unforgivable crime of Barristan holding back the truth. Jorah doesn't shift uncomfortably or seem pensive or try to ask questions in an attempt to understand where Barristan was coming from. Jorah knows that he has personally wronged Dany but he's able to justify all of his actions to himself whereas he has no patience to even want to listen to Barristan first before wanting to go all mindless macho protector on the guy. 

The other part that makes it harder to sympathize with Jorah is the fact that he has no fucks to give for the newly freed slaves. He just doesn't care if all of these people die or not. Even after all of this time, he still can't bring himself to feel sympathy for people he basically sees as not being worthy of their time or concern. 

I definitely like the confrontation scene here more than on the show. I especially like Dany thinking to herself that she was going to be the one to finally take Jorah home. On the show though, I did appreciate Barristan having the honor to give Jorah a heads up before everything went down. 

Barristan is great here because he humbles himself and is completely open about his faults. The fact that he was able to admit that he'd likely still be with Joffrey if they hadn't fired his ass, had to have been one of the hardest things he's ever done. I also liked Barristan pointing out who was where during the Battle of the Trident. God, Jorah is such a jerk here. I have sympathy for Jorah, but wow is he unlikeable in this scene. 

Dany doesn't seem to understand how important it is for her to marry the right guy if she wants to have an easier time conquering Westeros. She actually (however briefly) considers marrying a sellsword and an exiled penniless knight? Interesting too that she isn't taking the idea of polygamy off of the table. 

I can't help but comment on Brown Ben Plumm. I feel like we were given a very specific explanation for why Viserion likes him. It's unusual and Ben's vague knowledge of his ancestry supports the idea that the blood of the dragon may indeed have a deeper meaning. It also brings to mind the concept of dragonseeds that are introduced in the short story. 

The line about the nobles in Meereen dining on unborn puppies was almost comically OTT. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Yeah, the ugly side of Jorah really pops up in these in this book and carries on toward A Dance with Dragons.  He might tell Dany in the earlier books that he did stuff that he wasn't proud of like selling men into slavery but then in the next breath he is cursing Ned Stark and his "blasted honor."  Jorah might talk a good game to the woman he loves but he does not accept responsibility for his actions and doesn't believe he should be punished at all.

To use a line from Excalibur, Ser Jorah has a knight's humility and that is what helps him with Dany.

You know, Satin is a favorite of mine among the minor characters.  He has an interesting background and manages to thrive at the Wall.

I can't imagine Craster's inbred as the first choice for the White Walkers but I guess you take what you can get.

Quote

It really was stupid of the Night's Watch to erase all records of this guy. This is the kind of stuff that's good to not forget so that it doesn't happen again. 

Agreed.  It's an extreme reaction and the Night's Watch seems to be made up of extreme actions from erasing history to clinging to lifetime oaths.  I still think they'd get more members if they gave some the option of serving like ten years.

The story with the Night's King is pretty cool and it's interesting to think that this was the only White Walker-connected threat that the North dealt with in the past 8,000 years.

I had forgotten the detail of Robert and Stannis holding hands, which is nice to hear.

Edited February 3, 2017 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion VII

Sansa knows about the Red Wedding and Tyrion thinks about how pointless it would be for him to attempt to comfort her. Instead, he tries to shield her from the more grisly details of the wedding and makes an effort to allow her to grieve in private. Sansa still goes to the godswood every night to pray and Tyrion can’t help but wonder if she goes there to pray for his death.

Tyrion and Sansa have been given upgraded accommodations in the Red Keep now that they’re married, and Tyrion is happy that he no longer has to be in Maegor’s Holdfast near Cersei.

Tyrion meets up with Shae in the room with all of the dragon skulls and after they have sex, Tyrion starts going down his list of problems. He also admits to himself that his relationship with Shae is dangerous and thinks about how Varys has warned him that he’ll tell the truth about Shae if Cersei happens to ask him directly. Tyrion thinks that Varys should be able to come up with some ‘clever lie’ to tell Cersei if he finds himself being questioned about Shae, but Varys argues that he can’t be completely useless to Cersei without her eventually figuring it out.

Tyrion doesn’t seem to care about the tricky situation that Varys is in and Varys confesses that he can’t understand what it is that Tyrion sees in Shae that would make him behave so foolishly. Tyrion thinks that Varys doesn’t understand because he’s a eunuch and Varys basically says that he’d rather have a brain than a cock.

Tyrion admits to himself that he’s being foolish about Shae and wonders if he should just send her to work at Chataya’s. He thinks that she’d have a nice life there and would be able to have all the material things she seems to want. He also thinks it would be an improvement on the life she’d been living when he first found her. He considers finding a husband for Shae too and wonders if Bronn or Ser Tallad would be good choices.

Shae can tell that Tyrion is in a mood and asks if she’s displeased him in some way.

“No,” he said, too curtly. “You always please me.” And therein is our danger. He might dream of sending her away at times like this, but that never lasted long. Tyrion saw her dimly through the gloom, pulling a woolen sock up a slender leg. I can see. A vague light was leaking through the row of long narrow windows set high in the cellar wall. The skulls of the Targaryen dragons were emerging from the darkness around them, black amidst grey. “Day comes too soon.” A new day. A new year. A new century. I survived the Green Fork and the Blackwater, I can bloody well survive King Joffrey’s wedding.

Shae kisses Tyrion before they part, calls him her ‘Giant of Lannister’, and tells him that she loves him. Tyrion thinks about how he loves Shae too and decides that he’s going to have her marry Ser Tallad.

[Lady S.]

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I really liked how Dany reasoned out selecting Belwas as her champion. It is surprising to me though that she already feels that Daario is as as valuable to her as her bloodriders. 

In this one instance only I can agree with Dany's judgment about Daario. He represents the full force of his sellsword company. They're only with her because they're following Daario after he killed the two co-captains, so there's hardly a guarantee they'll stick around if Daario gets himself killed for nothing.

Yeah, I think the show went the wrong way with Jorah's reveal scene seeing it was framed with the audience's sympathy with Jorah, the unrepentant slaver/traitor, when this should be one of his ugliest moments. His merciless attitude toward other liars shows that his protectiveness toward has a strong selfish element of wanting to keep other men away from her and remain the most important man in her life. 

Interesting that Brown Ben's affinity with the dragons is noted and dragonblood offered as an explanation, but Dany seems to assume the other two dragonriders would be whoever she marries next. 

[nodorothyparker]

Ah, the chapter where Dany is counseled to take a pass on Meereen and thus save us two books worth of being completely bogged down there but insists on going ahead anyway and begins her insipid crush on Daario for good measure.  I do enjoy her thought process of elimination as she finally settles on Belwas to be her champion because at least if he's killed it's no great loss to her.  The fight with the champion is pretty great though and the one I wish we'd gotten on the show instead of Daario 2.0 landing a knife throw to a horse's head.

I kind of love Jorah's rationale that well, yeah, I was selling you out at first but then I came to love/lust after you so it's all good now.  He's quick to disparage everyone else for their failings or offer to kill Barristan here for not being entirely truthful, but he's always got a good reason why he did what he did so it's different and he shouldn't have to suffer any consequence for it.  Enslaved people?  I had this wife that wanted more luxury than I could provide.  Her fault.  And Ned Stark's.  Spied on you for the guy who wanted to kill you?  Well, I didn't know you then.

It's no secret that I'm no great fan of Ser Barry's and while he acquits himself well in the fight with Mero, his explaining himself here is just more of the same.  Oh well, okay, I served the man who took your father's throne and probably would still be there if the little pissant hadn't fired me.  But now I see the light and let me remind you that everyone else there is so much less honorable than me, like the Kingslayer.  And did I mention that I fought for your father before I served the new regime and that's what really counts here?

That their best attack plan so far is to wade at least waist deep in shit through the sewers is pretty unappealing.

[nodorothyparker]

Tyrion is so frustrating here.  He can acknowledge Varys saying that he doesn't see what Tyrion sees in Shae to make an otherwise smart man act like such a reckless fool, but he quickly dismisses it as a sex thing since Varys is a eunuch rather than concede that there really isn't much to Shae.  Other than she's a whore, which he must have reminded himself of at least half a dozen times in this chapter.  He clearly understands the risk in continuing to see her in the face of Tywin's threats and Cersei's snooping but does it anyway while making unrealistic plans to send her away that he obviously doesn't intend to follow through on.  

I do get Tyrion's frustration with Varys.  He's frustrating because he's such a slippery character to get a handle on.  Everyone assumes he's completely untrustworthy and always scheming, from Ned in the first book to Tyrion throughout.  And he is, but then they're completely caught off guard when he won't lie for them as he won't for Tyrion here or help them go against someone more powerful than they are.  That's before you even get to his seemingly inability to ever give a straight answer.

It's typical Tyrion that he sees Sansa's crushing grief and silence over what's happened to her family through the lens of how she's continuing to reject him on every level as a husband.  It's also a stark reminder of how young she really is when he thinks that can't trust her to keep a secret because that's just how girls that age are. 

[John Potts]

17 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Ah, the chapter where Dany is counseled to take a pass on Meereen and thus save us two books worth of being completely bogged down there but insists on going ahead anyway and begins her insipid crush on Daario for good measure.

I'd love it if she'd said, "Nah, that sounds like an interminable sub plot that everyone will hate - I'll pass" (though as she points out, if she doesn't take the city, the followers she leaves behind will all either be re-enslaved or starve). Pretty callous of Jorah to write them off like that, though - guess he wasn't too cut up about selling slaves to keep his wife in silks.

I'd forgotten that the Barry/Arstan reveal was immediately followed by him exposing Jorah as a spy, since the show never tried to (futilely) conceal Ser Barristan's identity. Definitely got more sympathy with Barry here rather than Jorah.

14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I do get Tyrion's frustration with Varys.  He's frustrating because he's such a slippery character to get a handle on... but then they're completely caught off guard when he won't lie for them as he won't for Tyrion here or help them go against someone more powerful than they are

That's probably what makes him such a good spymaster - he hears all and doesn't lie... he just doesn't pass on everything (and realistically, he couldn't anyway - he must get reports that are 90% fiction). Handy if you're (say) plotting a coup when the time is right!

[Avaleigh]

Sansa IV

Sansa wakes up after having a dream that she was back at Winterfell. In the dream she’s running through the godswood with Lady and her father and brothers are still alive. She thinks about how she wouldn’t be afraid if Lady were with her now. She also thinks about her family and Septa Mordane and how they are all dead and she’s the only one left.

Sansa gets ready for the wedding breakfast for Lannisters and Tyrell men that will be held in the Queen’s Ballroom. The Tyrell women will be having a separate breakfast with Margaery and this makes Sansa have bitter thoughts about how she’s been turned into a Lannister.

Tyrion comes in to join Sansa and helps himself to some wine while he waits for her to finish getting dressed. When Sansa points out that wine will be served at the breakfast, Tyrion says that there’s no way that he’s going to face his sister sober. As they’re getting ready to leave, Sansa is tempted to bail on attending the breakfast but tells herself that she has to be brave the way Robb would be.

Sansa notices that Tyrion doesn’t eat very much during the breakfast but he makes sure to drink plenty of wine. Sansa eats a little food but feels anxious every time Joffrey looks at her. Once the food is cleared away, Cersei presents Joffrey with the cloak that Robert draped over her during their wedding and explains that it’s the same cloak that her father used when he married her mother. Sansa seems to think that the cloak looks a little shabby.

The gift giving is next and Joffrey receives all sorts of expensive presents including silver spurs, a bow and arrow set, a silk tourney pavilion, and a war galley. When Joffrey is presented with a book from Tyrion and Sansa called The Lives of Four Kings, he’s clearly unimpressed and mentions that his father Robert had no interest in reading books. Ser Kevan says that The Lives of Four Kings is a book that every king should read and Joffrey replies that if Tyrion didn’t read so much that Sansa would likely be pregnant by now. Everyone laughs after Joffrey says this and Joffrey tells Sansa he’ll visit her bedchamber after he gets Margaery pregnant. Sansa’s face goes red after Joffrey says this but Tyrion chooses not to respond.

Mace Tyrell presents Joffrey with a gift of a large golden chalice that has seven faces on it to represent the seven kingdoms. Each face has the sigil of one of the great houses and Joffrey comments that direwolf on the cup will have to be replaced with a squid. Sansa pretends that she doesn’t hear the comment.

The final gift that Joffrey receives is a longsword from Tywin. The room goes silent for a moment when Joffrey unsheathes the weapon and then people start commenting on how impressive the sword is. Joffrey asks for suggestions on what the sword's name should be and eventually settles on Widow’s Wail. He uses the sword to slice through the book that Tyrion gave him and is unmoved when Garlan Tyrell points out that there were only four copies of that book in all of the Seven Kingdoms.

Joffrey tells Tyrion and Sansa that they owe him a better present and Tyrion suggests getting Joffrey a dagger with a dragonbone hilt. Joffrey is unsettled when Tyrion says this, but says that he’d prefer to receive a dagger with a gold hilt and rubies.

After the wedding breakfast, Tyrion and Sansa encounter Oberyn and Ellaria in the yard and start discussing The Lives of the Four Kings. Oberyn thinks that the author was too kind about King Viserys, but Tyrion disagrees and defends Viserys. Tyrion makes it clear that he's unimpressed with Baelor the Blessed, and this shocks Sansa enough for her to comment on it.

Tyrion and Sansa climb into their litter and Tyrion insists that the curtains stay closed because he’s convinced that the smallfolk will throw dung at them if they happen to catch a glimpse of him. Sansa tells Tyrion that she’s sorry about Joffrey ruining the book and hopes that he’ll like the dagger more. Tyrion asks Sansa if she remembers Joffrey quarreling at all with Bran the time they visited Winterfell. Sansa can’t remember anything happening between Bran and Joffrey and says that Bran was a sweet boy everyone loved.

Tyrion tells Sansa that he knows she loved her brothers the way that he loves Jaime and asks her if she knows what happened to Bran at Winterfell. Sansa says that Bran fell and that Theon was the one who eventually killed him. Tyrion mentions how Catelyn once accused him of being the one who tried to kill Bran and tells Sansa that he never tried to hurt her brother. He goes on to tell Sansa that he doesn’t mean to harm her.

 What does he want me to say? “That is good to know, my lord.” He wanted something from her, but Sansa did not know what it was. He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won’t he leave me be?

Tyrion tells Sansa that she’s never asked him for details on how her mother and Robb were killed. She tells him that she would rather not know because it would give her bad dreams. Tyrion agrees that he won’t say anything more on the subject and Sansa tells him that he’s being very kind. 

[Lady S.]

I like how last chapter Tyrion noticed Sansa dreaming and in this one right away we learn what she was dreaming about. 

Tyrion's wedding gift to Joff has always felt very contrived to me. First of all, obviously Joffrey is not a king who would appreciate any books. Tyrion's mocked his intellect on multiple occasions, and showed no real hope for Joff's education before. Why not just give him a weapon from the start? He has plenty, not like giving a book instead of another weapon will make him any less dangerous. Tyrion even gave him a crossbow at some point in Clash, iirc, keeping him distracted shooting at hares in the yard. Even if Tyrion didn't expect Joff to destroy the book (though he knows his nephew and it wasn't a surprising move from him at all imo), he couldn't have expected him to read it and learn from it. So if he was going to give a book, why give such a valuable one, one of only four copies in the world? Thinking back to Tyrion's excitement with the books he found at Winterfell, I'd think a booklover like him would treasure such a book and only give it to a fellow reader, not someone who, at absolute best, will just leave it to gather dust forever and forget about it. He already has a bad relationship with his king and wants to avoid making it worse, so I'd think that would mean giving him a present he'd actually like.

Quote

Shae had told her that this Ellaria worshiped some Lysene love goddess. "She was almost a whore when he found her, m'lady," her maid confided, "and now she's near a princess." 

Sounds like Shae's been listening to Tyrell gossip about "the serpent's whore". Slander about Ellaria as a sex worker, instead of just a bastard and mother of bastards herself, must appeal to Shae's own unrealistic ambition to be Tyrion's official mistress.

Oberyn's golden scorpion brooch sounds like an appropriate gift for an enemy of Dorne. Of course Joffrey wouldn't notice the significance, but Tywin should have. Oberyn's commentary about The Lives of Four Kings confused me the first time since he's obviously speaking in code, but it's a clever code playing with Tyrion's family loyalty after watching the breakfast scene between Tyrion and his nephew. First he states as fact that Viserys II murdered Baelor the Blessed and criticizes him not for the kinslaying-regicide but for not doing more with his power after he got the throne. Tyrion disputes Baelor's cause of death but says he wouldn't blame Viserys II if he had killed his nephew. By the end of the scene, Oberyn has asked why Joffrey is deranged without any snakebites like Baelor had, and Tyrion does not dispute Joffrey being deranged, just declines to speculate on it. So not only did Tyrion endorse uncle-on-nephew regicide but has agreed that his own nephew-king is deranged, not unlike the king whose hypothetical murder he'd just endorsed. I really wonder how Tyrion would have been used in Oberyn's revengenda if Joffrey hadn't been poisoned and Tyrion accused. Or is this just here to make Oberyn a red herring for the PW, even though that mystery is cleared up right away in Sansa's next chapter?

 

On 2/4/2017 at 10:06 PM, nodorothyparker said:

 It's also a stark reminder of how young she really is when he thinks that can't trust her to keep a secret because that's just how girls that age are. 

Which is ironic since her visits to the godswood are not prayers for Tyrion's death but very secret meetings with Dontos to plan her escape this very day. Although from what little Tyrion knows of her, he's not wrong to be careful, but it's also another reason she shouldn't be expected to trust him if he doesn't know or trust her either, especially when she's in the more vulnerable position while Tyrion only has something to lose because he's being so stupidly stubborn about Shae.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Lady S.

[benteen]

Quote

First of all, obviously Joffrey is not a king who would appreciate any books. Tyrion's mocked his intellect on multiple occasions, and showed no real hope for Joff's education before. Why not just give him a weapon from the start?

He probably didn't want to give him another potential weapon to kill him with.

But I agree, those books are completely wasted on Joffrey, who would never appreciate them at the very least.

Edited February 6, 2017 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

9 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Tyrion's wedding gift to Joff has always felt very contrived to me. First of all, obviously Joffrey is not a king who would appreciate any books. Tyrion's mocked his intellect on multiple occasions, and showed no real hope for Joff's education before. Why not just give him a weapon from the start? He has plenty, not like giving a book instead of another weapon will make him any less dangerous. Tyrion even gave him a crossbow at some point in Clash, iirc, keeping him distracted shooting at hares in the yard. Even if Tyrion didn't expect Joff to destroy the book (though he knows his nephew and it wasn't a surprising move from him at all imo), he couldn't have expected him to read it and learn from it. So if he was going to give a book, why give such a valuable one, one of only four copies in the world? Thinking back to Tyrion's excitement with the books he found at Winterfell, I'd think a booklover like him would treasure such a book and only give it to a fellow reader, not someone who, at absolute best, will just leave it to gather dust forever and forget about it. He already has a bad relationship with his king and wants to avoid making it worse, so I'd think that would mean giving him a present he'd actually like.

Sounds like Shae's been listening to Tyrell gossip about "the serpent's whore". Slander about Ellaria as a sex worker, instead of just a bastard and mother of bastards herself, must appeal to Shae's own unrealistic ambition to be Tyrion's official mistress.

I agree that it's contrived and that Tyrion would know perfectly well that Joffrey wouldn't be happy to receive something like a book. I suppose some part of him might have thought that Joffrey would be on his best behavior. Even Sansa acknowledges that Joffrey can play the courtly lord when he wants to, so I guess Tyrion might have assumed this would be one of those times. Additionally, maybe it's a gift that Tyrion thought Tywin would approve of Joffrey receiving. Kevan agrees that it's a book that every king should read and makes it sound like it's a gift that's perfectly appropriate. Garlan is also familiar with the book and of how rare that particular one; he's willing to give (or at least pretend to give) Joffrey the benefit of the doubt that he might not have realized just how valuable it was prior to destroying it. 

This is probably super unlikely but I suppose this also could have been a subtle way for Tyrion to show Tywin what sort of grandson he has on his hands. 

Joffrey is awful from start to finish in this chapter as usual, but the moment where I especially want to slap him is when he tells Tyrion and Sansa that they owe him a new gift because the one that he has is all torn to pieces. GAH!!!! He says it in a way where it's almost as though he has no idea how the gift came to be destroyed in the first place. Joffrey is always horrible but I found that to be especially frustrating. 

I'm so grossed out by how these people waste food. That breakfast was OTT and they have that prepared knowing that there are going to be seventy seven courses later that night? What is wrong with these people? Even if they'd spread the seventy seven courses throughout the entire day it would still be ridiculously wasteful and vulgar. Seventeen courses would have been too many but at least that seems plausible. Even imagining everything as a kind of amuse bouche, it still sounds completely impossible and stupid. I almost have an easier time with Meera and her easy climb up the Wall than I do with accepting the idea of seventy seven courses for a damned wedding feast.  

I know that the giving the leftovers to the dogs was a show invention (at least I'm pretty sure it was) but I hope there's some line about how the people in Flea Bottom or wherever are going to be allowed to eat the leftovers because I imagine that something like 85% of the food or more is going to go untouched. 

[Lady S.]

On 2/6/2017 at 10:17 AM, Avaleigh said:

This is probably super unlikely but I suppose this also could have been a subtle way for Tyrion to show Tywin what sort of grandson he has on his hands. 

I think Tywin should be well aware after the small council scene with Joff wanting to make Sansa kiss Robb's head and insulting Tywin, which happened only a short time ago. I think we're supposed to believe Tyrion really didn't expect a reaction this bad because I don't think he'd ever give away a book that valuable knowing it would be destroyed. It just feels like GRRM had to squeeze in every opportunity for Joffrey to be at his most horrible on his last day alive, maybe to make it more understandable that people would assume the regicide was part of the conflict between Tyrion and Joffrey. I think like how the show had Joffrey fake-graciously accept the book at first then turn destructive once he had Widow's Wail, showing how quickly his mood could change and that he could never keep up the Prince Charming act for long, which is evidence that the Tyrells were right to worry about him even if their method of dealing with him was still OTT in its brutality and public nature.

[John Potts]

I just figured that the book was a way for Tyrion to give Joffrey a worthy gift (Kevan agrees it is fit for a King) while knowing Joffrey would hate it. There's probably an assumption that, on such a public occasion Joffrey would be on his best behaviour and so he'd just ignore it. Hell, for all Tyrion knows, Joffrey might be King in twenty years time and he might actually have matured by then and want to read it!

[nodorothyparker]

It's pretty brazen for Cersei to be giving Joffrey a Lannister cloak to use for the wedding.   Joffrey on paper at least is a Baratheon and his entire claim to the throne rests on that claim, so you would think they would maintain that fiction by having him use a Baratheon cloak.  Yet the Lannisters are so sure of themselves here that they can't be bothered to even go through the motions of pretending and either no one thinks anything of it or wisely keeps their mouth shut.

I agree that Tyrion probably should have realized a book wasn't a gift Joffrey would appreciate, but it's a gift I would expect Tyrion to give since we know how much he does treasure books.  Yeah, a less rare and valuable one obviously would have been better, but even knowing what a little psychopath Joffrey is I don't think he could have reasonably expected him to be so badly behaved as to destroy it in front of everyone at a wedding breakfast.  Sansa acknowledges here that Joffrey can be quite charming when he wants to be and it wouldn't have been a huge stretch to expect him to least act like a normal human being at his wedding.  I've noted in the past that Kevan often manages to be shocked just shocked at the way members of the family behave and treat each other and Tyrion seems to pick his spots to have that same blind spot despite how often he's been on the receiving end.

I like how the talk of a replacement dagger flips the switch in Tyrion's head to start wondering again about the dagger Bran's would-be assassin was carrying.

The Oberyn-Tyrion talk about acceptable circumstances for nepoticide and acknowledgement of how unstable Joffrey is does feel really heavy handed knowing what's coming.  It seems like he's feeling him out here, and it's tantalizing to consider what Oberyn might have been considering  had his Inigo Montoya style vengeance not gone so horribly off the rails.

[Lady S.]

15 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It's pretty brazen for Cersei to be giving Joffrey a Lannister cloak to use for the wedding.   Joffrey on paper at least is a Baratheon and his entire claim to the throne rests on that claim, so you would think they would maintain that fiction by having him use a Baratheon cloak.  Yet the Lannisters are so sure of themselves here that they can't be bothered to even go through the motions of pretending and either no one thinks anything of it or wisely keeps their mouth shut.

I remember Olenna insisted on a Baratheon cloak for the Tommen/Marg wedding. I guess she didn't care so much about a marriage that wouldn't last the reception, but wanted to make a point with Margaery's final king, the one supposed to give her children to pass on his claim to the throne. It also shows Tywin's arrogance and vanity that he denies the twincest at every turn yet still allows Cersei to play up her son's Lannister heritage while he does the same with his lion-decorated sword for Joffrey. It's like their strategy is to not push Joffrey's alleged Baratheoness at all, as any sensible guilty person would do, and and just go completely the opposite way, daring anyone to question them to show that no one can challenge them. Y'know, no one would expect an illegitimate usurper to to only acknowledge his treasonous mother's side of the family so that must mean she's not treasonous at all, nothing to hide, nothing to prove, disgusting rumors deserve no consideration, a lion doesn't listen to the bleating of sheep, etc. etc. The least they could have done was made a new Lannister/Baratheon bridal cloak, but it just had to be Tywin/Joanna/Cersei's because the Lannisters never know when to stop. 

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion VIII

Joffrey and Margaery are having their wedding ceremony at the Great Sept of Baelor and even Tyrion has to admit that they very much look like a regal couple. Margaery chooses to wear Tyrell rather than Baratheon colors and Tyrion wonders if Margaery is really still a virgin. 

Tyrion feels drunk and uncomfortable, and he's regretting that he didn't think to relieve himself before the start of the ceremony. He's also come to the conclusion that Joffrey was probably the one who sent the assassin after Bran and wishes that the gods would crush his nephew once and for all. He thinks he should have realized that Joffrey was the guilty party all along and doesn't seem to think that Jaime and Cersei are suspects at this point. The only thing that still puzzles Tyrion is why Joffrey decided to target Bran. 

Tyrion doesn't like the idea of Joffrey knowing that he knows and wishes that he hadn't said anything during the wedding breakfast. He thinks about how his big mouth will eventually be the death of him and feels like he's close to either puking or pissing himself. 

When it comes time for Joffrey to drape Margaery in the Lannister cloak, Tyrion thinks about how humiliated he felt during his own wedding ceremony. He purposely avoids looking at Sansa and bitterly thinks to himself that she could have knelt for the cloaking. Once the cloaking part of the ceremony is finished, Tyrion wonders who will be able to protect Margaery from Joffrey. 

Tyrion and Sansa head back to the castle after the ceremony, and Tyrion tells Sansa that he was thinking that they might visit Casterly Rock so that he can show her where he grew up. Sansa isn't particularly enthusiastic but she tells Tyrion that she's happy if he's happy. Tyrion tells her that he hoped a change of scene would please her, but her response remains the same. 

Tyrion thinks back to Joffrey destroying the book and decides that it'll probably be in his best interest to leave King's Landing. He thinks about traveling to Oldtown or one of the Free Cities and thinks about how he's always wanted to see Braavos. He wonders if traveling elsewhere might be something that pleases Sansa.

Once Tyrion and Sansa are dressed and he leads her through the yard, he notices how good she is at making polite conversation with the nobles of King's Landing. He admits to himself that Sansa would have been a valuable asset to Joffrey, if Joffrey had loved her and had been willing to treat her kindly. 

Olenna Tyrell goes up to Sansa and tells her how pretty she looks. She makes a point of adjusting Sansa's hairnet and tells her how sorry she is about the losses that Sansa has recently suffered. She tells Sansa that she'll be leaving for Highgarden in the next couple of days and suggests that Sansa might come with her. Sansa politely declines Olenna's offer and says that her place is with her husband. 

Joffrey and Margaery ride into the throne room on horses and Tyrion thinks about how pretty Margaery is and how his nephew is totally undeserving to have lucked out with this marriage. 

The food starts being served and Tyrion takes a moment to think about all of the starving people in King's Landing. He wonders if the mob would love the Tyrells half so well if they could see them stuffing their faces on seventy seven courses. 

Tyrion sees Sansa watching Joffrey and Margaery and wonders if she wishes that she were in Margaery's place. Tyrion also notices a happily married Fossoway couple and seems resentful that he and Sansa aren't affectionate with each other the way this couple is.

Hamish the Harper is the first of the singers begin to entertain the guests. He sings a song called "Lord Renly's Ride".

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“From his throne of bones the Lord of Death looked down on the murdered lord,” Hamish began, and went on to tell how Renly, repenting his attempt to usurp his nephew’s crown, had defied the Lord of Death himself and crossed back to the land of the living to defend the realm against his brother.

The song moves Margaery to tears and Tyrion tells Sansa that Renly never repented for anything in his life. 

Another singers sings "The Dance of Dragons" and there are multiple versions of The Rains of Castamere throughout the evening. Tyrion asks Sansa which of the singers she likes best and she tells him that she hasn't been listening. Tyrion asks her if anything is wrong and immediately feels foolish for asking since he knows perfectly well that she's upset about the deaths of family members and the fact that she's been forced to marry him. Sansa denies that anything is wrong and tries to focus on Moon Boy and Ser Dontos entertaining the guests.

A singer named Galyeon competes for the honor of being awarded the golden lute with a song about the Battle of the Blackwater. Galyeon sings about how sinister Stannis is and how brave Joffrey is, and this makes Tyrion loudly comment that if he's ever Hand of the King again that the first thing he's going to do is hang all of the singers. Ser Garlan leans over to Tyrion and tells him that "A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant." Garlan also tells his wife how essential Tyrion's chain was to their side winning the battle. When Galyeon starts singing about the valor of Joffrey and Cersei, Sansa suddenly says, "She never did that." Tyrion tells Sansa not to believe the things she hears in songs. Gayleon's song has seventy seven verses and Tyrion drinks his way through the last twenty. 

Some of the guests are noticeably drunk at this point and Pycelle is passed out as dancers begin performing. There's also an alcohol fueled moment where one of Lord Rowan's knights ends up stabbing a Dornishmen during the festivites. 

Joffrey is pretty wasted too and he calls for the jousters to come out. The jousters are a pair of dwarves; one comes riding in on a pig and the other comes riding in on a dog. One represents a Lannister and the other a Stark. The dwarves perform and everyone seems to think that the display is hilarious. Joffrey is breathless with laughter and even Tywin looks slightly amused. The only person seated on the dais who isn't laughing at the dwarves is Sansa, but Tyrion thinks it's because her thoughts are elsewhere. Tyrion decides that the dwarves aren't to blame and plans on tipping them with a bag of silver when all is said and done. He also plans on getting payback on whoever decided to arrange this particular entertainment. 

Joffrey thinks the fighting dwarves are so funny that he has wine spewing from his nostrils. He tells the dwarf who "wins" the joust that he'll only be a true champion if he defeats all of his challengers. Joffrey asks if there are any people who are willing to challenge the dwarf and asks Tyrion if he'll be the one to defend the honor of the realm. 

Tyrion climbs onto the table and tells Joffrey that he'll ride the pig if Joffrey rides the dog. Joffrey asks why he should participate since he isn't a dwarf and Tyrion replies that Joffrey is the only man in the room that he's certain of defeating. The room is briefly shocked into silence which is quickly followed by laughter. Joffrey looks furious and when Cersei glares at Tyrion, he responds by blowing her a kiss.

Once the dwarves are gone from the room, Tyrion is ready for more wine but feels Garlan tug at his sleeve to warn him that Joffrey is approaching him. Tyrion barely has the chance to say anything before Joffrey dumps the contents of the chalice over his head.

Tyrion's eyes are burning from the wine and he hears Garlan tell Joffrey that dumping the wine on Tyrion was an ill done move. Tyrion tries to smooth the situation over by making it seem like it was an accidental spill, but Joffrey makes it clear that he did it deliberately. Margaery also tries to diffuse the tension and tells Joffrey that another singer is ready to perform. Joffrey tells Tyrion that he can be his cupbearer since he refuses to joust and Tyrion says that he'll be honored. Joffrey snaps that it isn't meant to be an honor and screams at Tyrion to pick up the chalice. Tyrion goes to pick it up only to have Joffrey kick it away before he can grab it. Joffrey berates his uncle for being clumsy and forces Tyrion to kneel once the chalice has been filled with wine. Tyrion is convinced that Joffrey is going to dump more wine on his head, but Joffrey seems content to just drink for now. He eventually allows Tyrion to get back to his feet and Tyrion does so with a helping hand from Garlan. 

Tywin says that it's time for the pie and Tyrion has a moment where he thinks that all he needs is for a dove to shit on him for his evening to be complete. Joffrey goes to cut the pie and Margaery tells him not to use Widow's Wail. Joffrey calls for Ser Ilyn's sword and when Sansa sees the sword, she asks what happened to her father's sword Ice. Tyrion thinks that he should have sent Ice back to Robb when he had the chance. 

Joffrey and Margaery cut the pie together and the serving people start handing out pieces of pigeon pie. Tyrion sees that Sansa is pale and suggests they go so that she can rest and he can change. They try to leave but Joffrey notices and reminds Tyrion that he's the cupbearer on duty. Tyrion asks if he can change first but Joffrey says that he likes the way he looks in his current state. 

Joffrey commands Tyrion to serve him his wine, so Tyrion grabs the chalice which is right where he left it. He hands it to Joffrey and the king takes a huge gulp. He also helps himself to Tyrion's untouched piece of pie and stuffs it into his face. He starts coughing and has some more of the pie. He says that the pie is dry and needs to be washed down. He swallows more wine, coughs, and tells Tyrion that he wants to see him ride that pig. 

Joffrey's coughing suddenly becomes more violent and persistent. He tries to say that it's nothing and that it's just the pie. He tries to drink some more wine but it all comes spewing out of his mouth when he begins coughing again. His face turns red and Margaery cries out that he's choking. Olenna starts shouting at people to help their king, so Garlan and Osmund both spring into action. Garlan pounds Joffrey on the back and Osmund rips the king's collar open. Joffrey's breathing can be heard at first and then it totally stops. Joffrey begins clawing desperately at his throat until it's bloody and Tommen starts screaming and crying once this happens. 

Tyrion realizes that Joffrey is about to die and Joffrey locks eyes with him as Ser Meryn tries to shove a spoon down Joffrey's throat. He thinks about how Joffrey has Jaime's eyes and how he's never seen Jaime look so scared. Joffrey points his finger at Tyrion and Tyrion wonders if Joffrey wants his forgiveness or if the boy somehow thinks that Tyrion can help him. Cersei starts to wail and asks her father to help her son. 

Tyrion thinks about how Robb's wedding turned out and decides that his own wedding wasn't so bad after all. He goes to look for Sansa and can't find her. He then goes to pick up the chalice and empties the remainder of the wine on the floor.

Margaery is crying and is being comforted by Olenna. The throne room is pretty chaotic and guests are trying to leave. The musicians were the first to flee and Tyrion starts thinking that it might be smart for him to leave as well. Cersei scream lets Tyrion know that Joffrey is dead and he again thinks to himself that he should probably leave. Instead he walks over to Cersei as she's cradling her son's body.

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His sister sat in a puddle of wine, cradling her son’s body. Her gown was torn and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey’s corpse. “The boy 
is gone, Cersei,” Lord Tywin said. He put his gloved hand on his daughter’s shoulder as one of 
his guardsmen shooed away the dog. “Unhand him now. Let him go.” She did not hear. It took 
two Kingsguard to pry loose her fingers, so the body of King Joffrey Baratheon could slide limp
and lifeless to the floor.

The High Septon says a prayer for Joffrey as Margaery continues to cry. Margaery's mother starts comforting her daughter by saying that Joffrey choked on the pie, but Cersei is certain that her son was poisoned. She orders the Kingsguard to do their duty and commands that they arrest both Tyrion and Sansa. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Avaleigh