The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[Avaleigh]

Even though the two women are totally different characters, Arya's interlude with Lady Smallwood sort of reminds me of her time with the actress on the show. The woman takes Arya in, cleans her up, gets her fed, offers her some good advice, doesn't care about Arya's identity, offers a little info on herself that makes Arya feel a connection towards her, etc. 

I think Arya and Gendry are so cute together. He seems younger than I thought when he tells her that she smells nice for a change. I also laughed when he told her that she smells like a nice oak tree. Funny that it seems like the others can sort of sense adolescent attraction between the two of them. Their rolling around on the ground reminds me of Jaime and Brienne and Brienne forcing Jaime to submit.

I really like the moment where Arya unknowingly chides Gendry for being rude about his father. That's something I didn't notice on my first read. 

Did we just get confirmation that Thoros of Myr is the biggest lush in Westeros?

Is the song Tom sings for the dwarf woman the song of ice and fire? If so, I wonder where he learned it and if we'll hear the lyrics one day. We get the lyrics of so many songs I thought it was odd that this one was left out. 

[WearyTraveler]

40 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Is the song Tom sings for the dwarf woman the song of ice and fire?

It's the song of Jenny of Oldstones, according to AWOIAF

[benteen]

Yeah, Avaleigh, Arya and Lady Smallwood also reminded me of the Arya/Lady Crane stuff this season.  I don't know if that was intentional or not but I'm glad the writers were able to fit in something that resembled the Lady Smallwood stuff.

Arya remembering how sweet Sansa's voice sound was a nice moment of her remembering her sister in a positive light.

[Lady S.]

19 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I think Arya and Gendry are so cute together. He seems younger than I thought when he tells her that she smells nice for a change. I also laughed when he told her that she smells like a nice oak tree. Funny that it seems like the others can sort of sense adolescent attraction between the two of them. Their rolling around on the ground reminds me of Jaime and Brienne and Brienne forcing Jaime to submit.

Yeah, I'm not a big shipper but I do think there's romantic subtext in both books and show. They're wrassling around as Tom sings a love song, for gods' sakes! I don't think that's just a meaningless coincidence or that a song would be inserted if Arya was wrestling with one of her brothers, though Jon was Arya's original love interest. I don't think Jon/Arya romance was still on the table at this point, but it survives in another form with Ygritte reminding Jon of Arya and Gendry's closeness with Arya reminding her of Jon. Ygritte is definitely a love interest for Jon, so I'd say the Gendry/Arya/Jon hints are not meant in an entirely platonic/surrogate fraternal sense either.  Obviously there's not actually anything more going on because Gendry's not a pedophile, but the possibility of something if they were older and/or if they met again is there. I mean, I don't think Jaime and Brienne actually have romantic feelings or much of a sexual attraction yet either, yet their fight in the previous chapter was compared to a dance and to sex. Pretty sure GRRM has confirmed he was playing with something with Arya/Gendry, while stating they were just kids, though I can't find a source for that. 

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys II

Dany is in Astapor negotiating with a slave master named Kraznys about buying his Unsullied slaves. She pretends that she doesn't understand Kraznys's High Valyrian and a young girl from Naath ends up acting as translator. Dany asks about the training the Unsullied go through, and Kraznys continues to speak to her in an insulting way in High Valyrian. Dany learns about how horrific the training process is and is informed that the slaves who are obediently standing there for her personal inspection haven't had food or water in a day. 

Arstan isn't impressed with the Unsullied and isn't happy that they are in Astapor trying to buy a slave army. Arstan understands a little High Valyrian as well, but he too is feigning ignorance in front of Kraznys as Kraznys insults and threatens him.

Kraznys emphasizes how disciplined the Unsullied are and says they feel no pain and don't fear death. The translator explains to Dany that the Unsullied drink some potion everyday called the wine of courage, and each year they feel less and less. Kraznys performs some cruel demonstrations to prove how tolerant the Unsullied are when it comes to pain.

Kraznys asks about the men in the Seven Kingdoms who swear vows of celibacy and says that men weren't expected to live celibate lifestyles. He says that most of the men in the orders that require celibacy are likely breaking their vows and points out that Unsullied men are never tempted by matters of the flesh. Arstan says there are other temptations for men apart from sex, and Kraznys says that the Unsullied have no interest in plunder either. They only value their weapons and are not even allowed to have names. 

Dany is horrified when she learns that the Unsullied have to slay a dog they've raised since puppyhood in addition to having to kill an infant child in front of its mother as part of their training. Arstan can't even look at Kraznys at this point, and Dany is given more assurances that the Unsullied soldiers will never betray her once they are officially hers. 

When Dany asks for Arstan's opinion on the Unsullied, he tells her that she shouldn't buy them. He says that the people of Westeros will be more likely to oppose her if she ends up leading an army full of slaves. He says that she'll dishonor House Targaryen if she does this and tells her that people are already willing fight for her because of the love they had for Rhaegar. Dany asks about her father and Arstan hesitates before saying that Aerys gave the realm years of peace. Arstan suggests that Dany go to Illyrio while she waits for the dragons to grow. He says she can send envoys to Westeros to see about which high lords she can end up getting on her side. 

Dany rattles off her titles and tells the translator to remind Kraznys who she is. Kraznys insults Dany some more and offers to show her around the city while she ponders what she'll do. He says that one of the fighting pits has a fine line up for the day that includes a folly involving a bear being set on three small boys. Dany declines the invitation to the fighting pits and Arstan is tapping the ground with his staff in an effort to conceal his rage. 

Arstan again urges Dany to abandon the plan of buying the Unsullied and says that she can hire sellswords. He says that sellswords might not be honorable, but it's better than being an owner of slaves. Dany says that she won't return to Pentos as a beggar and Arstan argues that it's better to be a beggar than a slaver. Dany says it's easy for Arstan to say that when he's never been a beggar or enslaved. Arstan apologizes for offending Dany and she assures him that she never gets offended when somebody gives her honest council. 

Dany thinks about how Jorah dislikes Arstan and wonders if Jorah is jealous. She thinks about how Jorah kissed her and how she hasn't wanted to be alone with him since. She feels that Jorah has woken something in her and thinks that no true knight would have kissed their queen without being given leave.

Jorah and Dany talk on the deck of the Balerion and Jorah asks how many men there are for sale. Dany snaps at him that the Unsullied aren't men and gets angry with Jorah when he starts to discuss their training. She slaps him in the face and tells him that if he were her true knight then he never would have brought her to Astapor and he never would have kissed her. Jorah offers to tell the captain that they're leaving but Dany makes it seem as though she feels she has no choice but to buy the Unsullied soldiers. 

Dany is told that the dragons have been restless in her absence. When Irri tried to keep Drogon from escaping, he ended up biting her. Dany tells Irri that she's sorry Drogon bit her and admits that dragons aren't meant to be locked up. 

Jorah talks with Dany and explains the pros of conquering Westeros with an Unsullied army. Jorah says that Unsullied soldiers aren't going to go around raping and plundering the people she wants to rule over. Jorah explains that the presence of the Unsullied soldiers are what keep the Dothraki from attacking Astapor.

Dany says that Viserys would have bought as many Unsullied as he could afford, but she remembers how Jorah told her that she was different from Viserys and is more like Rhaegar. She says that Rhaegar led free men into battle and was a man who dubbed his own squires and would make men into knights. She asks Jorah if the men who fought with Rhaegar on the Trident fought beside him because they believed in his cause or because they were bought and paid for. 

“My queen,” the big man said slowly, “all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Kraznys asks about the men in the Seven Kingdoms who swear vows of celibacy and says that men weren't expected to live celibate lifestyles. He says that most of the men in the orders that require celibacy are likely breaking their vows

He does have a point there, though his horrible solution is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Dany thinks about how Jorah dislikes Arstan and wonders if Jorah is jealous. She thinks about how Jorah kissed her and how she hasn't wanted to be alone with him since. She feels that Jorah has woken something in her and thinks that no true knight would have kissed their queen without being given leave.

Speaking of celibate orders, shouldn't Dany's Queensguard also be one, just like a Kingsguard? Yet the first of her Queensguard presumed to kiss her and even imply they should marry. Guess he assumed the same rules didn't apply with a female monarch or that he was only forbidden from taking other women because a Queen needs a husband just as much as she needs guards or that Dany loved him so much she'd change the rules, all of which are pretty big assumptions.

[John Potts]

Quote

 

Avaleigh Arstan again urges Dany to abandon the plan of buying the Unsullied and says that she can hire sellswords. He says that sellswords might not be honorable, but it's better than being an owner of slaves.

 

 

It's statements like this that remind me of what I've read somewhere in these threads: somehow, Barristan Selmy always managed to be elsewhere whenever really bad shit went down. He wasn't at Rickard's "Trial by Combat", wasn't in Kings Landing when Aerys was planning on blowing it up, didn't have to decide on obeying Joffrey's growing megalomania because he was dismissed... it really does seem as if he's "The Teflon Kingsguard", he retains his honour by simple virtue of never having to make any hard choices. He seems deluded in thinking Dany could hire sellswords (she looted SOME wealth from Ducksauce, but not nearly enough for an army) and MAYBE the Dornish would support her if she invaded Westeros, but otherwise she needs to make SOME hard choices to become Queen. Ser Jorah is absolutely right to throw back that line, "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

[Avaleigh]

13 hours ago, John Potts said:

It's statements like this that remind me of what I've read somewhere in these threads: somehow, Barristan Selmy always managed to be elsewhere whenever really bad shit went down. He wasn't at Rickard's "Trial by Combat", wasn't in Kings Landing when Aerys was planning on blowing it up, didn't have to decide on obeying Joffrey's growing megalomania because he was dismissed... it really does seem as if he's "The Teflon Kingsguard", he retains his honour by simple virtue of never having to make any hard choices. He seems deluded in thinking Dany could hire sellswords (she looted SOME wealth from Ducksauce, but not nearly enough for an army) and MAYBE the Dornish would support her if she invaded Westeros, but otherwise she needs to make SOME hard choices to become Queen. Ser Jorah is absolutely right to throw back that line, "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

I've talked about this a bit because I've always found it to be odd and I've long suspected that we're eventually going to learn that there was a time where Barristan did stand by and witness really bad shit going down, and has felt guilty about it ever since. I think he's seen for himself what Aerys was capable of and I think that's part of why he always pauses, hesitates, and is uncomfortable discussing him with Dany. I find it unrealistic that he managed to miss all of Aerys mad behavior after being with him for so many years. I think it's having witnessed Aerys's madness and cruelty that made him capable of morally squaring it with himself for staying with Robert for all of those years rather than seeking out Viserys and Daenerys earlier. 

19 hours ago, Lady S. said:

He does have a point there, though his horrible solution is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

I have to say that Kraznys ranks right up there with the Mountain, Roose, Vargo, and Ramsay in terms of just being an unredeemable asshole in every way. He tortures and mutilates the soldiers who are loyal to him because he can and he does it without even blinking. His idea of fine entertainment is to see three kids torn to bits by a bear. He sounds perfectly serious when he talks about having Dany lick honey off of his man tits as if that would somehow be a fun time for her. 

I feel like Barristan was feeling defensive because he chose a life of celibacy and honored it even though he had the desires that Kraznys speaks of. I also think that some part of him knows that what Kraznys says is true in terms of men in these orders breaking their vows. Show Pycelle has no interest in celibacy, everyone knows that man of the men of the Night's Watch go to Mole's Town. Jaime's affair with Cersei may or may not be an open secret, Arys Oakheart was one of the better members of the Kignsguard and he still ultimately couldn't keep to that vow. I know that Barristan doesn't know about Arys and may not know about Jaime but I think he has some idea that it's a rare person who willingly honors a vow of celibacy. 

[Lady S.]

IIRC, Arianne said it was an open secret that her great-uncle Lewyn still kept a paramour in his KG days. Airhead Arys was shocked to hear this but Barry would have known about it.

I've always assumed that all of the KG stood by when Rickard and Brandon were murdered, though I guess Jaime never specified. Barry was certainly aware of the madness so it's very frustrating to have him lie by omission. He does claim when Dany finds him out that he wanted to get to know her first and make sure she wasn't taking after her father before revealing himself, but he's still reluctant to tell the whole truth even after he joins her Queensguard. He must have a lot of shame and conflicted feelings about his past service.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Lady S.

[WearyTraveler]

Wasn't Selmy the one who rescued Aerys from some kidnapping plot which in turn is pointed out to be where his (Aerys') paranoia started? I think this is mentioned only in passing in ASOIAF, but more in detail in other books from GRRM.  Maybe Selmy's guilt stems from the fact that he didn't rescue Aerys in time to avoid all the paranoia that came later.

Edited July 23, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

Wasn't Selmy the one who rescued Aerys from some kidnapping plot which in turn is pointed out to be where his (Aerys') paranoia started? I think this is mentioned only in passing in ASOIAF, but more in detail in other books from GRRM.  Maybe Selmy's guilt stems from the fact that he didn't rescue Aerys in time to avoid all the paranoia that came later.

Selmy did rescue Aerys from Duskendale and after being held captive for half a year Aerys became full blown paranoid and cruel. 

But I don't think Selmy is feeling guilty for not rescuing Aerys earlier. In ADWD he wonders if he had not rescued Aerys than maybe the realm would have been better for it. 

[nodorothyparker]

Arya's chapter is interesting in that within a page or two we get multiple stories of Beric Dondarrion dying.  While it feels like just another example of minor characters trading wild rumors and gossip, it's nice bit of scene setting for what will eventually be revealed as Beric having died multiple times and been brought back by Thoros.

It's probably a good thing Arya doesn't get very far in contemplating trying to slip out to find the Karstark men in hopes they'll take her to Robb at Riverrun.  She obviously has no way of knowing it, but these would be same Karstarks that have already stormed out of there and aren't going to be in any mood to help anyone named Stark.  They very well might have decided to offer her to Roose or even Tywin if they didn't do something horrible to her to pay Catelyn back for what they considered her betrayal.

I like Lady Smallwood too, and her entire conversation with Arya about needlework that really isn't about needlework at all but about Needle.

[nodorothyparker]

On 7/22/2016 at 5:58 AM, John Potts said:

 

It's statements like this that remind me of what I've read somewhere in these threads: somehow, Barristan Selmy always managed to be elsewhere whenever really bad shit went down. He wasn't at Rickard's "Trial by Combat", wasn't in Kings Landing when Aerys was planning on blowing it up, didn't have to decide on obeying Joffrey's growing megalomania because he was dismissed... it really does seem as if he's "The Teflon Kingsguard", he retains his honour by simple virtue of never having to make any hard choices. He seems deluded in thinking Dany could hire sellswords (she looted SOME wealth from Ducksauce, but not nearly enough for an army) and MAYBE the Dornish would support her if she invaded Westeros, but otherwise she needs to make SOME hard choices to become Queen. Ser Jorah is absolutely right to throw back that line, "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

I've always found it highly convenient that Barristan served the same king that Jaime and the rest of the much vaunted Kingsguard did but we know almost nothing about what he was doing or even thought about that time when so many terrible things were being done. He's been hesitant to offer any real answers in these past couple of chapters with Dany but he's not even being honest about who he is, so make of it what you will whether he feels any true guilt or doesn't want to admit he was a passive participant in the evil like all the rest by standing idly by or what.  It's easy to be the most honorable to honorable when you never seem to be in the room when stuff happens.

The Unsullied as presented do invoke a mix of horror and pity and I can certainly understand the impulse of wanting to have nothing to do with any of that, but then you do have to wonder where Barristan thinks Dany is going to get the money to hire an army of sellswords if she goes back to the Free Cities and presumably Illyrio.  (The fact that no one on Team Dany is seriously raising the question of how Dany plans to pay for several thousand soliders regardless of whether they're slave or free is a whole other issue.)  Dany is aware that Illyrio has been perfectly willing in the past to let her and Viserys beggar themselves or sell her if it suited his purposes, so she can't really be faulted for thinking he's not likely to suddenly buy her an army now.   And if she doesn't go back to him, then what?  Jorah is at least being realistic here that she's going to have to make some hard choices if she's serious about winning the throne.  I like his monologue about Rhaegar.

Kraznys does certainly join the series' ranks of one-dimensional horribles but I do get a small kick out his and Missandei's less than direct Valerian to Common Tongue translations with Dany playing dumb throughout.  While I haven't really minded the aging up the show has done of most of the characters I'll admit that Missandei is my one sticking point, probably because of the odd pseudo romance they forced her into with Grey Worm. 

[Avaleigh]

Bran II

Bran and the others are still traveling and Bran imagines Osha and Rickon warm and safe at either White Harbor or the Last Hearth. Bran tells the Reeds that they'd be at the Wall by now if they'd taken the kingsroad and certainly wouldn't be as hungry. It's getting more and more difficult for Meera to hunt or fish and even Summer has nights where he doesn't find any food. Jojen insists though that they stay away from the kingsroad and again explains why it's better for them if they remain unseen. 

Bran tells Jojen that the mountain people are already aware of their presence but says that they probably won't be bothered by them as long as they don't try to steal any goats or horses. When they end up seeking shelter in a cave during a storm, they end up sharing it with a man Bran guesses is a Liddle. The man shares food with Bran and the others, and talks about how different things are now that there's no longer a Stark in Winterfell. He talks about how unsafe the kingsroad is in comparison to the way it used to be, and he mentions how the bastard of House Bolton is paying silver for wolfskins, and gold for information about 'certain other walking dead'. The man says that he doesn't recommend going to the Wall and tells them about how the Old Bear took men of the Watch on a ranging into the haunted forest from which only ravens without messages returned. 

"...Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that’s even darker.” He poked at the fire with his stick. “It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf’s dead and young one’s gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that’s left us is the ghosts.”

Jojen says that the wolves will come again and when the man asks Jojen how he knows this, Jojen tells him that he dreamed it.

When they wake up the next morning, the man is gone but he's left them some food and as Bran is eating, he thinks about how he'll reward the Liddles once there is a Stark in Winterfell again. 

They resume their traveling and when Meera points out an eagle to Bran, Bran tries to get into the eagle's skin the way that he changes into Summer's. He tries and tries but the attempt is unsuccessful and Bran is disappointed. 

Jojen observes that Hodor seems to like it when Bran says his name, and Bran mentions that Hodor's real name is Walder. Bran gets sad as he remembers Old Nan and wonders if she was killed or somehow managed to survive. Bran doesn't think that Theon would kill Nan and Meera reminds Bran that it wasn't Theon who did all of the killing at Winterfell since there were so many dead ironmen. Meera advises Bran to remember Old Nan's stories and the way she told them, and says that she'll always be alive for him in that sense.

Bran asks the Reeds if they know any stories and this makes Meera laugh, and both siblings admit that they know a few stories. 

Meera starts telling the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The tale begins with a crannogman who decides he's going to leave the Neck and see a bit of the world. He first visits the Isle of Faces where the green men live and stays with them throughout the winter. Bran is curious about the crannogman's time with the green men but Meera says that's a story for another day. The crannogman leaves the Isle of Faces once spring arrives and his travels soon take him to Harrenhal where a tourney is taking place and the royal family is in attendance.

The crannogman is enjoying himself and minding his own business when three teen squires start bullying him. They knock him to the ground, take his spear from him, kick him, and call him derogatory names. As the crannogman is being beaten, a 'she-wolf' rides onto the scene and shouts at the squires that they're attacking one of her father's men. The she-wolf fights off the squires with a tourney sword and then takes the crannogman with her so that she can attend to his cuts and bruises and have him meet her three wolf brothers. 

There's a feast held that evening and the wolf maid insists that the crannogman attend the festivities. 

“Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

During the feast they spot the squires who attacked the crannogman, and the she-wolf's youngest brother offers to get the crannogman a horse and some armor so that he might take his revenge. The crannogmen knows that he isn't a knight and doesn't like the idea of disgracing his people by making a fool of himself. He looks towards the Isle of Faces and decides to say a prayer to the old gods. 

Jojen asks Bran if his father ever told him this story, and Bran says that Old Nan was always the one to tell the stories. 

The story continues and Meera starts describing what happened at the tourney. A mystery knight entered the lists and the device painted on the mystery knight's shield was a white weirwood with a laughing red face. The mystery knight defeats the other knights and commands for them to teach their squires about honor. Once the three squires who attacked the crannogmen are vehemently chastised, the losing knights have their horses and armor returned to them. The crannogman's prayers were answered but it's unclear if the prayers were answered by the green men, the old gods, or the children of the forest. 

Bran decides that the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a good story and asks if the mystery knight went on to win the tourney and marry a princess. Meera says that the Knight of the Laughing Tree ended up vanishing after the king urged his men to challenge and unmask the knight. The king seems to think that this Laughing Knight is no friend of his and even asks his son the dragon prince to find the knight. All that's ever found of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is the painted shield and in the end, it was the dragon prince who would go on to win the tourney. 

Bran decides that he likes the story but wishes that it had been the knights who'd attacked the crannogman. He also wishes that the mystery knight had won the tourney and that the knight had crowned the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty. Meera says that the wolf maid was crowned the queen of love and beauty, but says that's a sadder story. Jojen again asks Bran if he's sure that his father never told him this story before. 

Bran thinks about how he'd like to visit the Isle of Faces and thinks about the magic powers that the green men are said to have. He thinks maybe the green men would be able to help him walk again and then he could become a knight. 

[Avaleigh]

I didn't remember Bran trying to warg into the eagle. I thought that was a cool detail and I wonder if he'd be able to do it now that time has passed and his abilities are stronger. 

I wonder why the tourney in the first book didn't have a queen of love and beauty moment. Maybe Sandor just didn't want to?

I'm curious who the previous queen of love and beauty was before Lyanna was crowned. We know that she was a Whent but that's all. I don't think I realized that this was an honor that could be given to a woman more than once. Considering how many total knockouts there are in asoiaf it's surprising that there aren't more familiar names as being recipients of this honor. Ashara Dayne, Catelyn, Arianne, Cersei, Shiera Seastar, etc.

I like how Bran uses Hodor as a stand in for himself when he tells Meera why he doesn't care for some aspect of the story. When he asks if this is going to be a romantic tale and says that Hodor doesn't really like stuff like that, I was reminded of Fred Savage telling his grandfather that he doesn't like the kissing scenes in The Princess Bride. 

Lyanna kind of sounds like a brat at times. Benjen ribs her a little for crying over Rhaegar's song and her response is to dump wine on her brother's head? Kind of an overreaction IMO. It doesn't help that her dumping wine on Benjen's head reminded me of show Joffrey pouring wine on Tyrion's head during the Purple Wedding. 

I was certain for some reason that the asshole squires would be from Houses Frey, Blount and Bracken for some reason. One of the few times GRRM resisted in putting down House Bracken. I can't recall any characters from House Haigh. 

I like that Bran wants to reward House Liddle one day.  

I wonder why Aerys had a bad reaction to the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Like Bran said, it's not like mystery knights were unheard of. 

Do we know any details of the second time Barristan road in a tourney as a mystery knight? We know about the first time when he was ten and I'm curious as to why he'd want to disguise himself a second time. 

[Jazzy24]

42 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I didn't remember Bran trying to warg into the eagle. I thought that was a cool detail and I wonder if he'd be able to do it now that time has passed and his abilities are stronger. 

I wonder why the tourney in the first book didn't have a queen of love and beauty moment. Maybe Sandor just didn't want to?

I'm curious who the previous queen of love and beauty was before Lyanna was crowned. We know that she was a Whent but that's all. I don't think I realized that this was an honor that could be given to a woman more than once. Considering how many total knockouts there are in asoiaf it's surprising that there aren't more familiar names as being recipients of this honor. Ashara Dayne, Catelyn, Arianne, Cersei, Shiera Seastar, etc.

I like how Bran uses Hodor as a stand in for himself when he tells Meera why he doesn't care for some aspect of the story. When he asks if this is going to be a romantic tale and says that Hodor doesn't really like stuff like that, I was reminded of Fred Savage telling his grandfather that he doesn't like the kissing scenes in The Princess Bride. 

Lyanna kind of sounds like a brat at times. Benjen ribs her a little for crying over Rhaegar's song and her response is to dump wine on her brother's head? Kind of an overreaction IMO. It doesn't help that her dumping wine on Benjen's head reminded me of show Joffrey pouring wine on Tyrion's head during the Purple Wedding. 

I was certain for some reason that the asshole squires would be from Houses Frey, Blount and Bracken for some reason. One of the few times GRRM resisted in putting down House Bracken. I can't recall any characters from House Haigh. 

I like that Bran wants to reward House Liddle one day.  

I wonder why Aerys had a bad reaction to the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Like Bran said, it's not like mystery knights were unheard of. 

Do we know any details of the second time Barristan road in a tourney as a mystery knight? We know about the first time when he was ten and I'm curious as to why he'd want to disguise himself a second time. 

Aerys was beyond paranoid at this point in time, so he saw threats everywhere, so he would have a horrible reaction to a mysterious knight. Plus this is the first time Aerys has been out of the Red Keep in years and Varys and others were whispering things in his ear making his illness worse. 

[John Potts]

Other than just the "General Chaos", you have to imagine there's going to be some payoff for why "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

Quote

Avaleigh the man is gone but he's left them some food and as Bran is eating, he thinks about how he'll reward the Liddles once there is a Stark in Winterfell again.

I like the touch of him wanting to reward others for helping them, too, though Bran does show his naivety in complaining about staying off the road (then again, he is only nine(?) so I'll cut him some slack there!). Also interesting that we see that Ramsay Bolton has discovered that Bran & Rickon are still alive at this point (presumably the same way he learned on the show).

[WearyTraveler]

I might be remembering wrong but wasn't Ramsay Bolton the one that came up with the idea to use the miller's sons in place of Bran and Rickon?

[John Potts]

Well baa, don't I feel sheepish for forgetting that!

[nodorothyparker]

This past season of the show has forever ruined me for any mention of Hodor and how that's not his real name.  Gah.  But yes, Bran, it's Hodor who doesn't like kissing stories like 1987 Fred Savage.  I do like the response/observation to wanting to a hear a story about knights fighting monsters that sometimes it's the knights that are the monsters.

Bran is rather naive in not understanding exactly why they have to stay far off the kingsroad.  I get it.  He's a kid and still isn't getting it even after everything that's happened just how profoundly the world has changed yet.  He's assuming here that of course the Starks will be back in Winterfell soon and he can reward the Liddle man.  I like how in laying the danger out for them the Liddle man pretty obviously does know who Bran is but doesn't say anything.

Jojen's descriptions of their magical Unplottable castle and the drowned knights in the water who couldn't find it conjure images from The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter.  It is amusing that Meera is talking about how the crannogmen rarely venture far from home when they're trekking all way up toward the Wall.

I've always been fascinated by the story of the great tourney at Harrenhal since nearly all the major players were there and it set everything into motion for what would eventually spark Robert's Rebellion.  I guess it's not really surprising that Ned never talked about it but it was talked about all the same.  We get mention of Robert being drunk and later looking for a fight.  We get clues that Lyanna was a fairly spirited girl and that she was initially very taken with Rhaegar.  We get Aerys in full paranoia mode out around his court.  And because Bran is a kid hearing this story, all he's taking from it is what would have made the story better from a purely storytelling point of view.

Edited July 28, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[glowbug]

I'm fascinated by the tourney and Harrenhal too, nodorothyparker. I know it won't happen but I wish the show would do a flashback to the tourney at Harrenhal. I would love to see it on screen. I'd also like to see GRRM actually write it out as a side project once the secret of Jon's parentage and the true nature of Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship is revealed, if he ever gets to finishing the series. 

[Lady S.]

20 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I was certain for some reason that the asshole squires would be from Houses Frey, Blount and Bracken for some reason. One of the few times GRRM resisted in putting down House Bracken. I can't recall any characters from House Haigh. 

House Haigh is sworn to the Freys and several of them intermarried with the Freys and took part in the Red Wedding as Walder's sons-in-law. I noticed that about the Brackens too, back with the "They Lay With Lions" moment when Jaime said it was Bracken land and that Jonos may have even ordered the murders himself. Funny how both the North and the riverlands have designated asshole houses (Bolton, Karstark, Frey, and Bracken) and the bad shit, if it's attributed to anyone specifically, is always blamed on them.

Speaking of solving the sigil clues, Robert's drinking buddy with the skulls and kisses should be Richard Lonmouth, one of those Barry named as Rhaegar's former squires who he knighted himself. So looks like there was no trouble between Robert and cousin Rhaegar before this, which fits with Steffon and Aerys being friends and Steffon first taking Bobby and Stan to court when they were little boys.

20 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I wonder why Aerys had a bad reaction to the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Like Bran said, it's not like mystery knights were unheard of. 

According to the World Book, he thought it was Jaime sneaking back in and disobeying orders after Aerys sent him to KL after his white-cloaking and refused to let him compete.

Jojen actually displayed some human personality traits when making that light-hearted observation about Hodor. Meera still seems far more relatable and likable, though.

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jojen's descriptions of their magical Unplottable castle and the drowned knights in the water who couldn't find it conjure images from The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter.  

I thought of LotR with the drowned knights too, but I don't think home is actually magically hidden like Hogwarts, just as I don't think Howland can actually breathe mud either. Most likely Greywater Watch is on a floating island and there's no set route to it because the waters of the swamp keep changing.

[nodorothyparker]

Quote

According to the World Book, he thought it was Jaime sneaking back in and disobeying orders after Aerys sent him to KL after his white-cloaking and refused to let him compete.

I kept thinking yesterday that I had read this somewhere but I could not for the life of me remember where.  So thank you for confirming it wasn't just in my head.  I knew it wasn't in any of Jaime's chapters in this book.  It makes a certain amount of sense given Aerys' increasing paranoia and pointedly insulting treatment of the Lannisters that he might have thought that.

I notice too in tellings of this story that there's no hint yet of enmity between the Baratheons and Starks with Rhaegar or the king.  Aside from the I think not widely known yet concerns about Aerys' mental health, it looks like they're all more or less good right up to the point Rhaegar will crown Lyanna instead of his wife. 

The floating island idea for Greywater Watch sounds as plausible as any.  I've never had any real opinions on it.  It just amuses me to refer to it as Unplottable the way the Reeds talk about it.

[Jazzy24]

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I kept thinking yesterday that I had read this somewhere but I could not for the life of me remember where.  So thank you for confirming it wasn't just in my head.  I knew it wasn't in any of Jaime's chapters in this book.  It makes a certain amount of sense given Aerys' increasing paranoia and pointedly insulting treatment of the Lannisters that he might have thought that.

I notice too in tellings of this story that there's no hint yet of enmity between the Baratheons and Starks with Rhaegar or the king.  Aside from the I think not widely known yet concerns about Aerys' mental health, it looks like they're all more or less good right up to the point Rhaegar will crown Lyanna instead of his wife. 

The floating island idea for Greywater Watch sounds as plausible as any.  I've never had any real opinions on it.  It just amuses me to refer to it as Unplottable the way the Reeds talk about it.

I think the realm knew that Aerys was mad. They just haven't seen him for a few years. The world book mentioned that the Harrenhal tourney was the first time that Aerys left the Red Keep in years. But everyone in Westeros knew that he was mad. 

[John Potts]

"Everyone" is probably overstating it: I expect most of the population knew nothing of Aerys other than his name (and maybe his face on the coinage). I imagine that the reason he was overthrown was not because he was mad but because he focused his madness on the nobility (or allowed his abuses to affect them too) - Roasting Brandon Stark, "Taking liberties" with Lady Lannister and the like are the sort of thing that gets nobles going, "Killing peasants is all very well, but Aerys is attacking US now - we need to do something!" And of course, out and out war hurts the peasants most of all (it's their fields that get burned and womenfolk that get raped), so it wouldn't be entirely surprising if they viewed Aerys as a good King since "things were better then."

[Jazzy24]

13 minutes ago, John Potts said:

"Everyone" is probably overstating it: I expect most of the population knew nothing of Aerys other than his name (and maybe his face on the coinage). I imagine that the reason he was overthrown was not because he was mad but because he focused his madness on the nobility (or allowed his abuses to affect them too) - Roasting Brandon Stark, "Taking liberties" with Lady Lannister and the like are the sort of thing that gets nobles going, "Killing peasants is all very well, but Aerys is attacking US now - we need to do something!" And of course, out and out war hurts the peasants most of all (it's their fields that get burned and womenfolk that get raped), so it wouldn't be entirely surprising if they viewed Aerys as a good King since "things were better then."

I remember a character saying that everyone from Dorne to the Wall knew Aerys was mad. I don't doubt that the realm knew Aerys was crazy even though he hasn't been seen in years. People would talk so rumors got spread. So by the time he was seen at the tourney nobody doubted the rumors. 

And the small folk didn't have a complaint about Aerys. He was definitely overthrown because he went after nobles. In ACOK a noble straight says that great King Aerys would have never allowed the horrors done to the small folk. 

And this is why I can't give the rebels their prompts because they overthrew Aerys. They overthrew Aerys because he was a threat to THEM. The small folk were better under Aerys(until he was beyond reach and wanted to burn them)but his reign was better than Robert's and every king after him. The nobles would have done NOTHING if Aerys killed 500,000 innocent small folk. They would have tightened their security in their regions and did nothing. Rhaegar can be blamed for much but he was the ONLY ONE who looked at Aerys and said he is getting out of control and I have to stop him. The nobles did not care about Aerys' madness until it touched them

[Lady S.]

10 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

And the small folk didn't have a complaint about Aerys. He was definitely overthrown because he went after nobles. In ACOK a noble straight says that great King Aerys

Nope, you're thinking of one of the prisoners at Harrenhal longing for the good old days, but the person who kept the peace before the Rebellion was the same guy responsible for the horrors at Harrenhal, Tywin. No noble has ever praised the Mad King as a ruler. And there's no real reason to think the smallfolk were worse off under Jon Arryn than they were under Tywin's original tenure as Hand. Yes, there was one war during Robert's reign, but it sounds fairly short compared to the others and most of the damage was to the Iron Islands themselves. The only attack the Ironborn really managed, as far as we know, was burning Tywin's fleet.

[Jazzy24]

19 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Nope, you're thinking of one of the prisoners at Harrenhal longing for the good old days, but the person who kept the peace before the Rebellion was the same guy responsible for the horrors at Harrenhal, Tywin. No noble has ever praised the Mad King as a ruler. And there's no real reason to think the smallfolk were worse off under Jon Arryn than they were under Tywin's original tenure as Hand. Yes, there was one war during Robert's reign, but it sounds fairly short compared to the others and most of the damage was to the Iron Islands themselves. The only attack the Ironborn really managed, as far as we know, was burning Tywin's fleet.

I don't doubt Tywin did his share of the work but Aerys did his job as King so he gets some share of that 20 year peace. And if you're referring to the world book on Tywin's leadership abilities I wouldn't put much stock into it. That book is biased, practically praising Tywin and Robert, I don't trust that book to give an accurate account about Tywin, Lannisters or Baratheons. 

And yes Jon Arryn gave the realm 15 years of peace but he helped to plant the seeds of TWOt5Ks. Robert and Aerys reign gave the realm a lot of years of peace but Robert's reign laid the foundation for the worst war Westeros has ever seen and helped to weaken the country against a ice zombie invasion. So yes I base my preference of Aerys reign on what came next(though his did end in war, it wasn't as horrible as TWot5Ks)and when I see the damage Robert and his have done than yes I will praise Aerys every time. 

[benteen]

Quote

I notice too in tellings of this story that there's no hint yet of enmity between the Baratheons and Starks with Rhaegar or the king.  Aside from the I think not widely known yet concerns about Aerys' mental health, it looks like they're all more or less good right up to the point Rhaegar will crown Lyanna instead of his wife. 

Robert's father Steffon died returning from a mission from Aerys, his cousin, to find a bride of noble birth in Volantis from his son.  The World book goes into greater detail that Steffon Baratheon was close with both Aerys and Tywin and it was rumored that Aerys was going replace Tywin as Hand with him.  Given the family history between the two going back to the Conquest, House Targaryen and House Baratheon were very close prior to the lead-up to Robert's Rebellion.

Very good chapter.  Always liked the scene with the House Liddle man and wish that could have been on the show.  Love hearing the history of the Tournament at Harrenhal.

[Avaleigh]

Davos III

Davos is in a cell beneath Dragonstone and since his two gaolers refuse to speak to him, he's been given no news since his imprisonment. A maester attends to him and he's well fed, so he realizes that he must be being kept alive for some purpose. He thinks about how Lord Sunglass and the sons of Ser Hubart Rambton were imprisoned beneath Dragonstone prior to being burned alive. He feels like he ought to have allowed himself to die on the rock out in Blackwater Bay. 

Melisandre eventually comes to visit Davos and his first question for her is if she's there to burn him. She starts talking about how the single torch in Davos's cell is all that keeps him from total darkness and asks him if she should put it out. Davos pleads with her not to and she smiles and comments on how he's grown to love fire after all. She compares herself to the torch and says that she's there to keep the darkness at bay. He replies that she's the mother of darkness and says he saw proof of that back at Storm's End. 

“Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though... a man whose flames still burn hot and high... if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make...”

Davos says that he doesn't want any part of her or her god and asks for the Seven to protect him. Melisandre points out that the Seven didn't protect Lord Sunglass even though he prayed to them three times a day. She asks Davos why he bothers to cling to 'false gods' and Davos replies that he's worshipped them all his life. She talks about how the world is full of opposites and how war is everywhere. 

“The war,” she affirmed. “There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light.” She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance.

Melisandre asks Davos why he wants to kill her and he says that he'll tell her if she tells him who it was who betrayed him. Melisandre says that he wasn't betrayed and says she simply saw his purpose in the flames. Davos asks how it is that they ended up burning on the Blackwater if she's is capable of seeing the future in the flames. She tells Davos that he wrongs her and says that the battle would have had a different ending if she'd been permitted to come. She mentions that Stannis has learned from this mistake and Davos silently wonders if his sons' lives were nothing more than a lesson for a king. 

Melisandre gives a speech about how Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn.

"...The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord’s chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!”

Melisandre comments on how Davos doubts the truth of R'hllor even now, and says that he will serve the Lord of Light again. Before she leaves, she tells him to think about everything she's said and says that she'll leave the torch with him to demonstrate that R'hllor is the source of all good. 

Davos goes over everything Melisandre told him and is thankful to know that Salladhor didn't betray him. He doesn't like the sound of her saying that he'll serve R'hllor again and is disturbed in general at the thought of her using the flames to spy on him. Davos stares at the flame from the torch to see if he can see the way that Melisandre does but all he sees is fire, and he gives up the attempt after his eyes begin to water. 

Three days later there's a struggle taking place outside of Davos's cell. Alester Florent is resisting as Axell Florent has him tossed into Davos's cell. Once he's locked in, Alester babbles from one topic to the next. He apologizes to Davos for his appearance and explains that he only escaped with what he was wearing when the Lannisters attacked their camp. Alester talks about how he lost his nephew Imry on the Blackwater, and Davos thinks about how Ser Imry was the one who led them blindly up the Blackwater Rush in spite of the evidence of the trap at the mouth of the river. 

Davos sees that Alester is a defeated man and listens as Alester talks about how Stannis will never sit on the Iron Throne. Alester says that Stannis has lost the support of nearly everyone and doesn't understand why it's considered treason to speak the truth. Alester admits to writing a letter that he planned on sending to Tywin Lannister with terms for a peace that would allow them all to live. The terms included that Stannis give up his claim and retract what he said about the incest in exchange for being confirmed Lord of Dragonstone and Storm's End. Alester also suggested sealing the deal by having Shireen marry Tommen. 

Alester feels that Stannis isn't in his right mind because of Melisandre's influence and seems particularly worried about talk of a stone dragon. He brings up incidents like Summerhall and Aerion Brightflame, and says that no good come from dreams of dragons. Alester defends himself by saying that he was the Hand of the King and was given permission to use the king's seal. 

Davos explains to Alester the key reasons why Stannis will never yield and makes it clear that he thinks Alester made a mistake. Alester says that Stannis has no choice other than to negotiate with the Lannisters, and Davos corrects Alester and says that Stannis has the option of dying a king. Alester asks if they're all just supposed to die with Stannis and asks Davos if that's what he wants. Davos says he just knows better than to negotiate a peace deal on Stannis's behalf without getting the okay from Stannis first. Alester stares at Davos for a long moment and then starts to cry.  

[nodorothyparker]

I really kind of love Davos' "yeah, no ... thanks, I'm good" to Mel's offer to make another shadow demon spawn with him.    There's not only his personal dislike of her and how her magic has played out so far, but also the charming detail that she's drained Stannis of his fire/life force/what have you nearly to the point that another attempt might kill him that I'm sure makes it such an attractive offer to him.

There's still quite a bit about what she's claiming about R'holler and her magic that isn't really clear whether it's real or just really lucky coincidence and I'm with Davos in not always being sure which is which.   Yes, there's quite a bit of evidence that the Lord of Light may be the one god we've been presented with so far that does actually have some teeth, but if that's the case they've all gone along with some bad stuff in service to it that Davos clearly isn't wild about.

 Alester Florent's reaction to being locked up in a common dungeon cell rather than the better accommodations usually afforded someone of his birth is darkly amusing.  I feel a little bad for him in that he's making a reasonable amount of sense here in trying to salvage some kind of peace after Stannis's resounding defeat on the Blackwater and the defection of most of his supporters.  Under the circumstances, he's trying to be realistic about Stannis's now seeming nonexistent chances and make the best of it but I also can't imagine how if he truly knows Stannis at all that he ever thought he'd ever be fine with him signing his name to such an offer.  Stannis will never concede his claim as long as he thinks it's legitimate and Davos is right that Alester's offer deal basically hands Shireen and her claims to Storm's End and Dragonstone to the Lannisters through Tommen.  Tywin probably would have been open to it, but I'm sure that he would have immediately realized too that Stannis would forever be a pain in the ass to any deal they tried to make.

I am curious if Salladhor Saan betrayed Florent by giving the letter to Stannis instead of delivering it, considering that Davos was wondering earlier in the chapter whether he could be trusted.

[Lady S.]

Alester's deal might have appealed to Tywin, but the Tyrells would have some issues with it. They've already claimed Brightwater Keep for Garlan and Tommen marrying Shireen instead of Marg would be even more of a loss for them. It's quite possible Olenna was working with Mace on the PW in the book, as he's not quite the buffoon he was on the show, but even if he wasn't aware that Joff had an expiration date, I think Olenna would say something if Marg was going to lose her back-up. Alester's also wrong about Tywin having other enemies to deal with as he's missing the same key info as the rest of the characters (except for Patchface and the Ghost of High Heart) about the Red Wedding, and after that the Greyjoys would be Roose's problem. And though this deal would make Shireen a virtual hostage, I think Tywin would still want to punish Stannis for publicly and widely slandering the golden twins and their kids and trying to steal Joff's throne. That's a lot more treason than Ned did and Ned was going to have to join the NW. At the very least, I doubt he'd ever keep Storm's End and Dragonstone and they'd go straight to Tommen, leaving Stannis dependent on his underage nephew/son-in-law, meaning actually dependent on Tywin and Cersei. Really, if Alester wanted to bend the knee, he should have just left Dragonstone and tried to make a deal for himself like some of the defeated Stormlands instead of trying to make peace in Stan's name behind his back. Either he was trying to help Selyse and Shireen or he was just too cowardly to openly abandon Stannis, but thinking Stannis would ever go along with it as a fait accompli was just stupid.

Quote

The other gaoler was older, stooped and sallow, with greasy unwashed hair and pebbled skin. He wore a doublet of white velvet with a ring of stars worked upon the breast in golden thread. It fit him badly, being both too short and too loose, and was soiled and torn besides. He would bring Davos plates of meat and mash, or fish stew, and once even half a lamprey pie. 

Looks like Lamprey helped himself to Lord Sunglass's last outfit. The wiki has his sigil as a ring of 7 golden 7-pointed stars on white.

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I really kind of love Davos' "yeah, no ... thanks, I'm good" to Mel's offer to make another shadow demon spawn with him.    There's not only his personal dislike of her and how her magic has played out so far, but also the charming detail that she's drained Stannis of his fire/life force/what have you nearly to the point that another attempt might kill him that I'm sure makes it such an attractive offer to him.

Mel's offer here has always confounded me because expecting Davos to be seduced was even dumber than Cersei trying to seduce Ned. Davos going along with that would be as unlikely as Stannis going along with Alester's peace terms. Even if Mel's sex appeal was just that strong I think Stannis would still be a problem. I doubt he knows what she's doing down there so once again someone is acting behind his back. I wonder if Mel was just trying to weird Davos out and demonstrate that she wants to work with him, that they're on the same side and he's the one causing conflict, not her.

[nodorothyparker]

Yeah, it probably would have been a smarter move for Alester to cut his losses and make nice with the Iron Throne separately rather than trying to remain Stannis's hand of the king.  Especially as right now the Lannisters seem to be feeling relatively generous to anyone of any standing to Stannis who abandons him to come to their side.  He's trying to have it both ways here by continuing to act as hand, likely because of his marriage ties to Stannis, and not surprisingly it didn't work out so well for him.

Now I do wonder what the Tyrells would have done had this offer become publicly known and quickly accepted, given that we know they're plotting a Plan B for the Joffrey problem.  They couldn't and didn't do much of anything at all when their not so secret plans to spirit Sansa away and marry Willas to her claim to the North were thwarted, but the stakes are much bigger here.  Their choices would have been to either suck it up and figure out how to live with Joffrey, hope to get an heir on Margaery quickly and then deal with the nightmare of a long regency with the Lannisters that we've already discussed would indeed be nightmare, or speed up the ye olde cup of poison timetable and skip the public spectacle of murdering the king at his own wedding before a Tommen-Shireen marriage could take place.  I suppose to Olenna, bumping off Shireen to make Tommen an instant widower at some point probably also wouldn't have been off the table although without an heir first that puts the succession for Storm's End and Dragonstone back into question and out of Lannister control.

Good call that Tywin probably at the very least would have insisted on some very public recanting and punishment for Stannis.

Given how dire things look for Stannis at the moment with no fleet and almost no supporters left, he very well might have decided it was better not to ask too many questions about the how and why if Mel just happened to produce another shadow demon baby that could take out one of his enemies and make him a contender again.  Excepting his "my hands were clean" comments about what he assumed were his dreams about the one that killed Renly, he seems to have preferred to not know too much about the specifics.

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I suppose to Olenna, bumping off Shireen to make Tommen an instant widower at some point probably also wouldn't have been off the table although without an heir first that puts the succession for Storm's End and Dragonstone back into question and out of Lannister control.

Tommen has his own claim to those castles as Robert's son, so I think they'd just give them to him in his own right and not recognize Shireen's inheritance even if they were married. If the Lannisters could take away Brightwater Keep with Alester's son still living there and give it to a non-relative, I don't think they'd care about Stannis and Shireen's claims against other Baratheons. Like how Lancel was married to a female-line Darry, but the castle was given to him and officially no longer belonged to House Darry. I imagine Olenna wouldn't bother waiting to make Tommen a widower, no need to take out Shireen, with her father powerless she's not much of a threat, not unlike Sansa. If Joff was killed sooner and Tywin had to choose between Marg and Shireen as Tommen's queen, he'd probably go with the one who brought an army, gold, and food to the table. I assume it was just Littlefinger who wanted Joffrey's death to be a big public spectacle, so changing the plans could cause some issues with the Tyrells and their poison supplier, but from their PoV killing Joffrey sooner would be the best solution and surely they could find a way to do so without Littlefinger's convoluted scheming.

If Mel really wanted to birth another shadow behind Stan's back, I wonder why she didn't try to seduce anyone else on Dragonstone. I'd think the Queen's Men would jump at the chance to bed her. And while sneaking into Storm's End was a special case, she was also in the general vicinity of Renly's death in the army camp, so I've always assumed there needed to be some proximity for the shadow to reach its target. Renly and Penrose were immediate obstacles to Stannis, but which enemy would even be the target at this point?

[nodorothyparker]

That's true.  I keep forgetting that as Robert's legal "son" that it would be relatively easy to just cut Stannis and Shireen out of the succession for Tommen.  After all, at this point Stannis is a traitor who tried to overthrow the sitting king so it's not like there's not a precedent for stripping traitors of their lands and/or titles.   Under this scenario, Joffrey probably just bites it much much sooner with no big purple wedding spectacle.

I wonder too who Mel would point her next demon shadow baby at if Davos or anyone else were to take her up on her offer.  Would she immediately have them set off rowing her to Kings Landing?   There aren't really any other good targets at the moment that would likely change Stannis's prospects any.

[Lady S.]

Would Mel actually know who to target in KL? Tywin is definitely the real enemy there, but she and Stan seem focused on those actually calling themselves king. Even with Joff, Tyrion, and Tywin gone in Feast/Dance, there's still Cersei and Kevan to rule for Tommen, so looks like it would really take a bunch of shadowbabies to fully clear the way for Stannis.

[Avaleigh]

Jon III

Jon goes to look for Ghost and starts thinking about conversations that he's had with Ygritte. Ygritte claims that Jon 'stole' her and Jon denies he did this saying that he didn't even know that she was a girl until he had his knife at her throat. 

“If you kill a man, and never meant’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard’s motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he’d lost. When a man of the Night’s Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too.

Jon finds Ghost, tells him that they each need to hunt alone for awhile, and gives him instructions to return to Castle Black. He considers finding a way to have Ghost carry a note but decides that the risk of discovery is too great. He worries about whether or not Ghost understands his instructions to go to Castle Black and thinks to himself that he isn't much of a warg. 

Jon thinks that he should have killed Mance back at the Fist and feels that's what Qhorin would have done. He keeps waiting for a chance so that he can slip away and ride for Castle Black, but there's always someone around. He also thinks about how conflicted he feels regarding Ygritte.

Jarl and Magnar are sharing the command, and Magnar asks Jon to tell him everything knows about patrols of the Night's Watch. When Jon gives his answer about how many numbers the Night's Watch has Jarl knows that he's lying, and Magnar threatens to take Jon's tongue if he lies to him. Jon says that he isn't a crow and insists he won't be called a liar. Magnar tells Jon to go and says that he'll send for him if he has any more questions. 

Jon and Ygritte end up in a cave and she tells him a story about another King-beyond-the-Wall. They have sex and Ygritte teases Jon about how he was a virgin before he met her. They argue again whether or not Jon stole her and Jon wonders why the gods made sex with Ygritte so enjoyable if it's so wrong. They start playing in a pool in the cave and soon start having sex again. Ygritte tells Jon that she doesn't ever want leave the cave.

[Lady S.]

Ah, the one where Jon exports cunnilingus beyond the Wall. Gives a whole new context to the term kneeler, doesn't it? (Sorry, that's out of my system now, I think.) Interesting the emphasis on what lords do to their ladies, considering the only other male characters we know of to go downtown (Tyrion with sleeping Shae, Theon forced to with Jeyne, possibly Daario with Dany with her line about them fucking every which way, and maybe Jaime with Cersei, her memories aren't too explicit but I think there's a line about his head between her legs) were not married to the women they were with. 

I can understand why the show dropped the wildling rape fantasy courtship rituals because it really just makes Ygritte look crazy. A person can accidentally kill someone, but accidentally marrying someone whose gender you weren't even sure of is a whole different matter. The NW and the free folk are both pretty fucked up. Craster's father using his mother and abandoning mother and child is repugnant but so is turning a blind eye to the incest/rape at Craster's Keep because there are no laws beyond the wall and Craster's not really their kind. Why does his crow blood define him? Was his mother not still one of theirs? Doesn't sound like her family, village, or clan did much to help her when she was jilted. Did they shun her as a crow lover the way Jon fears Ygritte will be punished for his betrayal? Is that how the Craster family ended up so isolated? I suspect Craster's mother may have been his first wife when he grew up rather than him having an original wife who was not related to him at all. I suppose it's also possible that the isolation started with Craster after his mother's death, or that she chose to leave her wildling kin, or that she and her ancestors had been worshipping the WW for generations, but Ygritte's account doesn't really hint at any of that, just ends by saying the crows rejected baby Craster, his blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse, and Ygritte acts blissfully unaware of the true enemy. 

Poor Jon with all his sexual hang-ups. The boy really seems genuinely surprised to be enjoying sex so much. When he wonders why the gods would make something so wrong feel so good, I don't think he means wrong just in terms of being in a "celibate" military order or in sleeping with the enemy. I think he's probably always thought of fornication as sinful and wrong. I wonder how and if he'd ever let himself indulge in his urges with a girl if he wasn't in a situation where he was basically under orders from Qhorin Halfhand to do so and he believed that not doing so would compromise his mission.

[Avaleigh]

The main thing I took away from this chapter is how uncertain Jon feels about his ability to warg and seems to sort of underestimate the connection he has with Ghost. It also helps show just how advanced Bran is even if Bran isn't at the point where he can remember to do things while he's in Summer's skin. 

It also made me reconsider the bonds between the Stark children and their direwolves. I think I always thought Arya had the strongest connection with her wold after Bran and, whileI still feel this way, I consider how Jon is just able to tell Ghost what he needs him to do and Ghost understands and obeys. Arya had to throw rocks at Nymeria to get her to obey and she couldn't or maybe just didn't think to simply tell Nymeria to run for Winterfell. It's possible that this wouldn't have worked but it seems like Nymeria didn't fully understand why Arya and Jory threw the rocks, and with Ghost and Jon it seems like Ghost understands that there's no choice but for him and Jon to separate for awhile. 

I think that Jon would have resisted the urge for a long time if he hadn't been in this undercover situation. Maybe not forever but if Ygritte hadn't pushed hard I don't think he would have made a move on her or any other female wildling. Not at this point in the story anyway. I can see him eventually breaking down though if he'd spent more time away from the Wall. 

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

It also made me reconsider the bonds between the Stark children and their direwolves. I think I always thought Arya had the strongest connection with her wold after Bran and, whileI still feel this way, I consider how Jon is just able to tell Ghost what he needs him to do and Ghost understands and obeys. Arya had to throw rocks at Nymeria to get her to obey and she couldn't or maybe just didn't think to simply tell Nymeria to run for Winterfell. It's possible that this wouldn't have worked but it seems like Nymeria didn't fully understand why Arya and Jory threw the rocks, and with Ghost and Jon it seems like Ghost understands that there's no choice but for him and Jon to separate for awhile. 

Tbf, I think Ghost is a lot closer to Castle Black than Nymeria was to Winterfell, and Ghost has had a lot more time to bond with Jon. At this point, Jon's probably had more consistent access to his wolf than any of the Starklings, with Robb keeping Grey Wind at a distance (and even before that I doubt Robb slept with his wolf in his bed the way Jon did), Lady dead, Nymeria run off, and Summer and Shaggy having spent time locked in the godswood, after Bran was away from Summer for however many weeks in his coma before the catspaw showed up. All three of the Stark PoVs with wolves are very strong wargs in their own ways imo, Bran can skinchange into any animal, including humans, Arya has wolf dreams from across the sea of a wolf she lost as a pup while also skinchanging into a cat, and Jon can eventually smell through Ghost's nose and taste through his mouth while awake without trying. Ghost does return to the gate at the Castle Black, but not until the end of this book, too late to warn anyone, so he understood he needed to separate from Jon but I'm not sure how much he really understood and obeyed. 

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys III

Dany tells the translator that she wants to buy all of the Unsullied slaves in addition to the ones who haven't finished their training. The slavers argue for awhile on whether or not it's a good idea to allow her to purchase the untrained ones, but eventually decide that Dany many purchase the eight thousand Unsullied who have finished their training in addition to the six hundred who are partially trained. They tell her to come to them in another year if she wishes to purchase two thousand more. Dany says that in another year she'll already be in Westeros. 

Dany wants to purchase the young boys as well but the slave masters continue to refuse. When she offers to pay double for the young boys, the slave masters asks her how she plans on paying for everything and say that she can only afford five hundred based on what she's carrying on her ships. When Dany offers to include the ships, they tell her that she may have two thousand. Dany feels this won't be enough and tells them that she'll give them a dragon if they sell them all to her. 

Arstan goes to his knee and begs Dany not to sell any of her dragons. He says that she should win her war with dragons not slaves, and Dany replies by telling Arstan not to presume to instruct her. She then commands Jorah to have Arstan removed from her presence and has the translator tell the slave masters that she regrets the interruption. The slave masters decide that Drogon is the dragon they want and also throw the translator into the bargain since Dany will need someone to speak to the Unsullied until they learn to speak her language.

When Dany joins up with Arstan again, she tells him that it's fine if he speaks his mind with her but says he should only do it when they are alone. Arstan tells Dany that the Astapori have ripped her off and says that a dragon is worth more than any army. He says that Aegon the Conqueror proved that on the Field of Fire, and Dany replies that she plans on proving a few things of her own. 

Dany asks the translator her name and the translator, Missandei, is surprised when she hears that Dany can speak High Valyrian. Dany tells Missandei that she's no longer a slave and offers the girl a place as one of her handmaids if she decides that she wants to stay with her. Missandei says that she has no place to go and will serve Dany gladly. 

Dany questions Missandei about what she knows of the Unsullied and asks what she's supposed to do with eight thousand men once her war is won. Missandei says that Unsullied make excellent guards and suggests they could always be sold. Dany says that slavery isn't done in Westeros and asks how she could be sure the Unsullied wouldn't be used against her at some point if she were to sell them. Missandei says that Dany could always request the Unsullied to fall upon their swords if she no longer has need of their services, but Dany can tell that her new handmaid doesn't want her to make this choice. Missandei admits that three of the Unsullied used to be her brothers. 

Dany feed her dragons later that night and cries while she's alone. She calls Jorah and her bloodriders to her cabin and starts talking with Jorah about Eroeh and how she ultimately failed to save her. She talks about how alone she's been and how Viserys was her king as well as her brother and should have protected her. She says that justice is what kings are for. 

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Dany wakes up from the dream and feels that someone is in the cabin with her. She hears a woman's voice speaking to her and thinks she sees a shadow. 

“Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

Dany calls Quaithe's name and jumps out of bed to get a better look, but doesn't see any sign of anyone being there; she says it must have been a dream. 

When Dany goes to purchase the slaves, Kraznys advises her that there are many small cities that will be good for sacking and says that if she sends them any captives that they'll buy the healthy ones in order to make more Unsullied. 

It's time to hand over Drogon, so Dany gives Kraznys the end of the chain that Drogon is attached to while Kraznys presents her with a whip. Dany confirms with Kraznys that the Unsullied are officially hers and then mounts her silver. She wonders if this is what her brother Rhaegar would have done.

Dany shouts at the Unsullied that they belong to her and shows them that she now holds the whip. She speaks to the Unsullied in High Valyrian but only one of the slave masters seems to notice this because the others are all preoccupied with the dragon. Dany thinks to herself that it's time for her to cross the Trident. She tells Kraznys that Drogon won't come to him because a dragon isn't a slave. She brings the whip down across Kraznys's face and tells Drogon 'dracarys'.

Drogon sets Kraznys on fire and the scene becomes chaotic from there especially once Irri and Jhiqui release Rhaegal and Viserion. Dany orders the Unsullied to kill the masters and anyone who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but instructs them not to harm any children under twelve. She also tells them to strike off the chains of any slave they see. She starts shouting about freedom and repeatedly says the word 'dracarys', so this makes other people start shouting the word back at her. Dany thinks it's the sweetest word she's ever heard. 

[Lady S.]

Man, Kraznys and his co-masters are such idiots. How did it never occur to them that Drogon would still be Dany's after she handed him over? No non-Valyrian had ever been known to master a dragon and yet they think all it takes is some stupid teenage girl being willing to trade one. They don't even consider that Dany might realize the value of one of the world's only dragons just as much as they do. And they tout the Unsullied's blind obedience but still expect their protection after they've been all sold. By far my biggest problem with Dany's Slaver's Bay sl is the stupidity of her opponents. It's hard to believe any of these people managed to rule their shitty society all this time before Dany came along. At least Viserys had reasons for the way he grew into such a delusional loser.

Barry is also pretty dumb for not thinking Dany could have a plan going on or asking her privately, but it's probably some measure of progress for him to question her openly. I'm betting he never offered unsolicited opinions with her father or even dared to speak against him in private.

[John Potts]

OTOH, Kraznys thinks the dragons are like slaves - ownership implies total obedience. So maybe he thinks its more like trading a regiment of trained soldiers for a Stealth Bomber.

Also, interesting that she sees herself on the Trident battling warriors of Ice - now maybe that's simply because that's where Rhaegar died, but it doesn't bode well (especially for the North!) if she's battling the Others that far South.

[Lady S.]

I'm hesitant about seeing the dream as foreshadowing the actual location of the Others' last stand. I mean, I definitely think Dany's endgame is fighting in the Long Night 2.0, but it's not like she has any way to recognize the Trident river. It's just her only frame of reference for a battlefield, but if we assume she's misidentifying the WW army as Robert's army, doesn't it follow that she could be wrong about the river too? 

[Avaleigh]

The main reason I lean towards the dream also being prophetic in terms of location is because dragon dreams seem to be full of truth. I also don't think that the final battle will be contained to the North. I absolutely think that the Others will make it that far south and that's what's going to be so scary and thrilling. I think it would be lame if all of the other six kingdoms were spared the danger of the WW invasion. Another reason I see the wights and Others going south is because I suspect that Winterfell will be protected on some level so they might end up surrounding it but not actually penetrating it. I wonder if Storm's End is similarly protected.  

Edited August 9, 2016 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

I can't read this chapter without wondering at what exact point Dany decided to double cross Kraznys.  As soon as she offered Drogon?  Later back on the ship when she's crying?   Irri and Jhiqui seem to know what's going on when they're unchaining the other two dragons just as everything starts to go to hell but we get no hint of whether they knew the overall plan or that any of the rest of Team Dany had any idea.  I realize she's got to keep up the illusion until the last minute, but she's got her people lugging all that random treasure through the city as payment that I assume she's just going to take back.

I really loved this moment on the show but yeah, Lady S. is right in that its success was entirely dependent on the masters being so completely enthralled by the sight of the dragons that they didn't really think through that Dany might also appreciate the absolute value of one of the world's only three known dragons or that a dragon might not be as compliant as a horse or slave.  It's also dependent on them not considering that Dany was considering one of the Unsullied's big selling points they'd been hammering over and over:  That they're so absolutely and unquestioningly obedient to whoever owns them that they could be pointed at whoever owned them five minutes before.  Either she's facing very stupid people or she's exceptionally clever and good at reading people.

I've never really thought much about the significance of her dream other than noting that she sees herself as Rhaegar on the Trident and later refers to the point of no return in her double cross as "crossing the Trident."

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I can't read this chapter without wondering at what exact point Dany decided to double cross Kraznys.  As soon as she offered Drogon?  Later back on the ship when she's crying?   Irri and Jhiqui seem to know what's going on when they're unchaining the other two dragons just as everything starts to go to hell but we get no hint of whether they knew the overall plan or that any of the rest of Team Dany had any idea.  

Oh, I think this was her plan all along, or at least all through this chapter. She kept thinking that she needed all the Unsullied for some undisclosed plan, and imo that reason could only be to leave the masters totally defenseless so she could kill them all. I don't think she was that desperate for untrained eunuchs to conquer Westeros in the distant future. And I don't think she'd ever seriously consider giving Drogon to Kraznys. Or that we should think she needed Barry, a man below Ned Stark in the critical thinking department, to remind her how important the dragons were, but letting him react that way honestly made her look serious about it. Maybe she was crying because of having to fool her own people, but I assume she let Jorah and her bloodriders in on the deal when she invited them in because they were the only ones she could fully trust, there's an undisclosed part of the conversation there. Reminds me of when she hatched the dragons. It wasn't made clear what she thought she was doing walking into Drogo's pyre, but there are lines about knowing what to do because of her dragon dreams. (In this case, I don't think she had any dragon dreams relating to Astapor, just that she figured out a way to outwit people who happened to be criminally moronic in their greed.)

Edited August 10, 2016 by Lady S.

[nodorothyparker]

Very possibly.  I know my reading of this particular scene is now colored by how it was done onscreen where Jorah and Barristan either didn't have any clue to the point that they didn't realize she could speak and understand High Valyrian or were doing a bang up impression of people who didn't know and seemed almost caught off guard when she made her move.  Barry is treating Dany like a little girl who doesn't understand the significance of having dragons, like she hasn't spent most of her life as a famous named beggar and has to knows perfectly well that without them the line that separates her from being a sad mockable figure like her brother is probably pretty thin to a lot of people.

My initial reading of her wanting all the half-trained boys too was probably much more high minded than the reality, since we know she was troubled by the descriptions of the awfulness of their training, but yeah, it does make sense that she wouldn't want to leave the masters anything they could use to attack her back.  I do find it mildly interesting that she's at least contemplating here that she'll be bringing thousands of eunuchs with no place or claim to anything to Westeros and what does she do with them all after she's finished conquesting.  That's one of my recurring issues with the character on the show, where for all her high minded bombastic speeches about making the world better she seems to have given no thought whatsoever to unleashing a foreign army or the Dothraki horde, neither of whom speak the language, on a land already wracked by war as winter is setting in.

[Avaleigh]

Sansa III

Sansa giggles over how pretty she is as she's dressed up in her new gown and attended to by Cersei's bedmaid. She thinks about how she can't wait for Willas to see how great she looks and seems sure that she'll be able to make him love her. She wants to make sure that he forgets all about Winterfell once he sees her.

Sansa doesn't understand what Cersei means when the queen tells her that her beauty is being wasted on a 'gargoyle'. When Cersei commands one of the maids to bring a wedding cloak with the Stark colors on it, Sansa feels sick and starts to refuse when she's told that she'll be marrying Tyrion. She protests, tells Cersei that she's supposed to marry Willas, and says they can't make her. Cersei informs Sansa that she's going to be 'wedded and bedded' even if they have to drag her kicking and screaming, so it's up to her how she wants to proceed. Sansa tries to run but is quickly caught by one of Cersei's handmaids. 

Sansa tells herself to be brave and thinks about how Tyrion is the one who saved her the day Boros Blount tore off her clothes. She tells herself that he isn't as bad as the rest and tells Cersei that she'll go. Cersei smiles and tells her that she knew she would. 

Joffrey is waiting for Sansa at the steps of the castle sept and tells her that he gets to play being her father today. Sansa tells him that he'll never be her father but Joffrey insists that he is and tells her that he'll marry her to anyone he likes. Sansa tells Joffrey that if he ever loved her even a little bit that he won't force her to marry his uncle. 

Tyrion asks to have a moment alone with Sansa and tells her that he's sorry about everything being so sudden and secretive. He lets Sansa know that if he'd refused to marry her his family would have had her marry Lancel instead. He says that she can still marry Lancel if that's what she would prefer. Sansa wants to say that she isn't interested in marrying any Lannister and would prefer to be the Lady of Highgarden, but tells Tyrion that it's her duty to do as the king commands. Tyrion says he knows he isn't the kind of husband that girls dream about but says at least he isn't Joffrey. Sansa acknowledges that Tyrion has been kind to her. 

Nobody behaves as though they notice that Sansa is crying during the ceremony and soon it's time for the changing of the cloaks. Joffrey takes away her Stark cloak, and Tyrion tugs at her skirt so that she'll kneel and he can wrap her in a Lannister cloak. Sansa thinks about how she always imagined her wedding day would be and decides that she doesn't want to spare Tyrion's feelings when nobody cares about hers. The witnesses begin to laugh as Sansa pretends to not notice Tyrion tugging on her skirt, and eventually Dontos is ordered to get down on his hands and knees so that Tyrion can climb on his back to fasten the cloak. 

When Sansa finally looks at Tyrion, she feels ashamed over her stubbornness and decides to kneel so that their heads are level for the kiss. She thinks that he's even uglier than the Hound, and has to bite her lip to keep from sobbing once the High Septon declares them to be husband and wife. 

The Tyrells are present during the wedding feast and most of them pretend as though they don't know her. Tyrion drinks heavily during the feast and Sansa is dreading the bedding ceremony.

Sansa puts her hand on Tyrion's and asks him if they should lead the dance, but he replies that they've given everyone enough amusement for the day. Joffrey and Margaery lead the dance instead and Sansa wonders for a moment how a monster like Joffrey can dance so beautifully. 

Garlan Tyrell asks Sansa to dance and ends up telling her how his brother Willas gave him the nickname Garlan the Gallant. Sansa thinks that the story is so silly and sweet that it makes her feel hopeful again. Garlan tells Sansa that he's seen the way she looks at Loras and says that Tyrion will make a better husband for her than Loras would. 

Sansa dances with other men and is eventually forced to dance with Joffrey. Joffrey tells her that kings are allowed to have other women and says that Tyrion will bring her to his bed whenever he commands it. Sansa replies that Tyrion won't do that.

Joffrey announces that it's time for the bedding but Tyrion says that they won't be doing one, and threatens to geld Joffrey for forcing the issue. Cersei asks Tywin if he heard what Tyrion said, and Tywin decides that they can dispense with the bedding and suggests that Tyrion was only joking with his comment. Tywin points out to Joffrey that Tyrion is obviously drunk and Tyrion says that he isn't so drunk that he can't attend his own bedding. He grabs Sansa and takes her back with him to a bedchamber they've been given in the Tower of the Hand. 

Once they're alone in their room, Tyrion asks Sansa to pour him some wine and she decides that things will be easier if she gets drunk as well. Sansa asks him more than once if she should undress but Tyrion doesn't answer and starts talking about his first marriage to 'Lady Tysha of House Silverfist'.

Tyrion learns that Sansa isn't even thirteen yet but says that talking about it won't make her any older. He suggests they get on with it and says his father has commanded him to consummate the marriage. Sansa undresses, he tells her that she's a child, but admits that he's attracted to her anyway. Sansa admits that this frightens her, and Tyrion tells her that he knows he's ugly. 

He pushed himself to his feet. “Don’t lie, Sansa. I am malformed, scarred, and small, but...” she could see him groping “... abed, when the candles are blown out, I am made no worse than other men. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers.” He took a draught of wine. “I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I’ve proven I’m no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere. I could be... I could be good to you.”

Sansa realizes that Tyrion seems to be as frightened as she is, but this realization only makes her pity him rather than feel more kindly towards him. He tells her to get in bed and says they need to do their duty. When Sansa tries to cover her body with a blanket, Tyrion tells her not to and proceeds to undress. Tyrion touches her and Sansa keeps her eyes closed until Tyrion tells her to open them. He tells her that he doesn't want to go through with it and says they can wait however long it takes until she gets to know him better and maybe even learns to trust him. He swears that he won't touch her until she wants him to. Sansa asks him what he'll do if she decides that she never wants him and Tyrion says it's reasons like this that the gods have made whores. 

[Jazzy24]

I hate this chapter. Poor Sansa :-( 

And I don't care how interesting the Lannisters are I just see them as monsters and always will. What they did and continue to do to Sansa is evil, just gross. 

I have always liked Tyrion but I notice that I continue to lack any sympathy for him. I get that the situation was bad and uncomfortable for both him and Sansa but I lack any sympathy for Tyrion and continue to do so books later.