The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[Lady S.]

Funny that Cersei is the one who is resistant to ending Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey.

I think she just preferred a powerless prisoner to an older girl who would come with her powerful family. I've seen people use this in terms of the YMBQ, but someone as vain as Cersei doesn't need a prophecy to fear rivals.

 

The memory of Tyrion thinking about Jaime daring Cersei to kiss him sounds like Jaime and Cersei would have been younger than actually they were.

It was also a dick move for Jaime to make a joke of Cersei's revulsion of Tyrion, so his being a teenager at the time makes it even worse. One of the few times his sister kissed him and it was just a dare to kiss the freak.

 

It sucks that both Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce lost their lives because Loras wanted somebody to take his anger out on. I wonder if Loras knows now that they were innocent.

He knows they were innocent of Renly's murder, I think he killed them for not saving Renly.

 

I could feel how excited Littlefinger got at the idea of Sansa not marrying Joffrey. When he comes back from meeting with the Tyrells is this when he thinks to ask Cersei if he can marry Sansa? I had Harrenhal in my head when he said he'd think about it, but now I'm guessing that he was thinking about Sansa here.

How needlessly gross was his saying all Sansa had to offer was her sweet body? But he asked Cersei for her hand either when Ned was first arrested or when he was killed. Cersei thought that a minor lordling was terribly mismatched for a great lord's daughter, even a treasonous great lord. He's about to start the early stages of his PW plot with the Tyrells, so I believe in the suggestion that murdering Joffrey was also meant as his revenge on Cersei for denying him Sansa.

Too bad Catelyn couldn't have talked to Mace before the Lannisters did. There are possibilities in a Robb/Margaery match.

Eh, Mace wants the Iron Throne and all of Westeros, I don't think he'd settle for the North unless Tywin actually lost the war. And he's not enough of a risk taker to try to make the Reach independent and be an ally of Robb's that way.

Why does Tyrion keep bringing up that he was married at 13? Cersei's awful response should have been perfectly predictable. But his views on sex are pretty messed up if he thinks taking Joffrey to Chataya's will really calm him down. I remember being surprised when I first read this that that scene in the show came from an actual idea book Tyrion had. At least the idea never comes to fruition in the book.

[nodorothyparker]

I like how there's an element of truth to each of the rumors of how Renly died but none of them have it exactly right.  The way George uses rumors in these books to convey both information and misinformation always amuses me.

 

Robb never would have been up for consideration as a prospect for Margaery because at this point in the story as far as Catelyn knows he has every intention of fulfilling his agreement to marry a Frey.  And Mace already had his sights set on planting his family on the Iron Throne.  If the Reach and the North had adjoined each other geographically, maybe a case could have been made for carving out a separate kingdom of just those two and whatever else they could hold but the only way a Stark-Tyrell union makes sense now is if they both continue to be vassals to the Iron Throne.  Given how seriously we know these families tend to take marriage agreements, it is interesting to me how easily Tyrion waves away the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey.  He likely never would have risked it had Ned not been dead and Robb been in open rebellion and I think it says a lot about how he views the Starks' role in any future Westeros going forward that they can so casually dishonor the family.  Sansa has no real protection to speak of here though so it really doesn't matter and because her brothers are still alive nobody's really thinking of Sansa's status as possible heir to Winterfell and the North yet.

 

It is sad that Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce were both killed basically for not jumping to conclusions and not stopping Catelyn and Brienne from fleeing.

 

The tussling of Tyrion and Cersei each trying to get the other out of Kings Landing is funny but can you even imagine Cersei as an envoy?  Does she even know how to negotiate or speak in anything but in threats?  I'm also interested in the detail of Tyrion wanting to get Joffrey laid in hopes that it will calm him down a little but he knows he can't do it until he gets the Hound out of the way.  Why would it even matter to the Hound what he does?  He certainly doesn't seem to have any great love for Joffrey.

Edited February 26, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

It's geographically difficult to make an alliance between the North and the Reach because the Westerlands are between them.  Though if they attacked the Westerlands from the North and the South, House Lannister would form in no time.  I agree, Mace would never settle for anything less than the Seven Realms.  But a Robb/Mace alliance would cover a huge chunk of Westeros.  The North, the Riverlands, presumably a conquered Westerlands and the Reach.  It's fun to consider all the scenarios.

 

I remember Littlefinger bringing one of the Redwyne twins when he went over to Renly.  It was a smart move on their part to show how committed they were to an alliance.  But this is when Tyrion completely lost any kind of control he has had over Littlefinger at this point.

 

I forgot that Varys used to giggle a lot in the books.

 

 

Tyrion thinks his sister looks like she's fully prepared to have Varys castrated once more.

 

Heheh.  That is a funny line.  The Tyrion/Cersei bickering continues to entertain.

[Lady S.]

Given how seriously we know these families tend to take marriage agreements, it is interesting to me how easily Tyrion waves away the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey.  He likely never would have risked it had Ned not been dead and Robb been in open rebellion and I think it says a lot about how he views the Starks' role in any future Westeros going forward that they can so casually dishonor the family.  Sansa has no real protection to speak of here though so it really doesn't matter and because her brothers are still alive nobody's really thinking of Sansa's status as possible heir to Winterfell and the North yet.

Well, it's not like betrothals are never broken, sometimes things don't work out with fathers getting beheaded and all that. I don't see how the Starks were being dishonored since they were the ones who wanted to end the betrothal, Ned first bringing that up before Robert died and Robb making it one of his peace terms.

 

It is sad that Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce were both killed basically for not jumping to conclusions and not stopping Catelyn and Brienne from fleeing.

Emmon Cuy was trying his darnedest to kill Brienne before Catelyn brained him with the brazier, so I confess I don't feel quite as sad for him as for Robar Royce.

 

Not that the punishment was warranted, but since Loras naturally assumed Renly was killed by a human being instead of a shadow assassin, I can understand why he would be pissed that four KG were right there and seemingly just did nothing to defend Renly. If a human assassin sneaked into Renly's tent then he had pretty shitty guards, and if either of the people already inside the tent killed Renly then they shouldn't have been allowed to escape. Without knowing Renly was killed by black magic, his Kingsguard would look pretty bad. Of course, that's reason to question them, not kill them, but Loras also had his love and vengeful grief for Renly overcoming reason.

 

I'm also interested in the detail of Tyrion wanting to get Joffrey laid in hopes that it will calm him down a little but he knows he can't do it until he gets the Hound out of the way.  Why would it even matter to the Hound what he does?  He certainly doesn't seem to have any great love for Joffrey.

I suspect it's more that he doesn't want the Hound reporting Joff's brothel visit to Cersei. He's a loyal Lannister dog at this point but none too fond of Tyrion.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

Would those Kingsguard be Loras first kills?

 

I agree that Cersei as an envoy would be terrible. I just imagine her responding to everyone with "nobody caaares" the way show Cersei did in that scene with Loras.

[Avaleigh]

Wasn't it unusual that the shadow sliced through Renly's armor? Doesn't that give an indication that this wasn't some normal assassination job? Or does Valyrian steel cut through armor? 

[Lady S.]

Would those Kingsguard be Loras first kills?

 

I agree that Cersei as an envoy would be terrible. I just imagine her responding to everyone with "nobody caaares" the way show Cersei did in that scene with Loras.

Probably, unless any of his tourney jousts turned fatal.

 

I imagine Cersei as envoy would probably say like her son is the most handsome, most gallant, and most courteous king who ever lived and the Tyrells should feel honored for the chance to even breathe the same air as him after their treason with Renly.

 

Wasn't it unusual that the shadow sliced through Renly's armor? Doesn't that give an indication that this wasn't some normal assassination job? Or does Valyrian steel cut through armor? 

Oh, yeah, the description of cutting through his armor like cheesecloth is definitely unusual, but that's not enough to leap to black magic when most people don't believe in magic at all.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Theon III

 

Theon is attempting to question a captured Benfred Tallhart. Benfred spits on Theon and tells him that Robb is going to gut him for being a traitor. Theon still wants to question his captive but his uncle Aeron wants Theon to kill Benfred for being so insulting. Benfred continues to tell Theon what a traitor he is and says that he won't answer any questions.

 

Aeron insists that Benfred be given to the Drowned God and reminds Theon that Balon sent him there to counsel him. He says that Theon should be the one to kill Benfred and that he should do it in the "Old Way" as a sacrifice to the Drowned God. Benfred tells Theon that he's going to lose his head for what he's doing and tries to spit on him again.

 

Killing Benfred in the name of the Drowned God is more than Theon feels he can stomach so he tells his uncle that he'll leave the religious stuff up to him. Theon waves his hand so that Werlag and Stygg will drag Benfred away and Aeron gives Theon a reproachful look before following.

 

Theon tells himself that he's doing Benfred a favor by agreeing to have him drowned as opposed to having him beheaded since Stygg isn't exactly an expert headsman and Benfred basically has the neck of a boar. He thinks about how he used to tease Benfred for having such a thick neck and remembers spending a fortnight in Benfred's company about three years previously.

 

Theon hears the noises of victory from their battle and thinks about how the battle felt more like slaughtering sheep. He looks down on a bunch of dead men and horses and thinks that the horses deserved better. He watches his men looting the corpses and thinks about how his father would approve. He considers going back to the two men he's killed to see if they have any decent jewelry, but the idea of doing that leaves a bad taste in his mouth. He imagines what Ned would have to say about this and then gets angry with himself for even thinking about his former guardian.

 

When a son of Botley's ends up getting into a shoving match with a drunk guy named Todric, Theon decides that he wants to teach Todric a lesson by shooting the horn of ale that he's holding out of his hand only he ends up shooting the man in the belly instead. Theon now has the attention of the other men and he tells them that he won't have them getting drunk and getting into fights over plunder.

 

Todric is noisy about dying so Theon tells Botley to silence him. Botley and his sons strip Todric of his valuables before he's even dead.

 

Now they know I mean what I say. Lord Balon might have given him the command, but Theon knew that some of his men saw only a soft boy from the green lands when they looked at him. "Anyone else have a thirst?" No one replied. "Good." He kicked at Benfred's fallen banner, clutched in the dead hand of the squire who'd borne it. A rabbitskin had been tied below the flag. Why rabbitskins? he had meant to ask, but being spat on had made him forget his questions. He tossed his bow back to Wex and strode off, remembering how elated he'd felt after the Whispering Wood, and wondering why this did not taste as sweet. Tallhart, you bloody overproud fool, you never even sent out a scout.

 

Theon thinks about how Benfred and his men were singing when they were attacked and how he hadn't expected Benfred to be the leader of the group of men. When he goes to return to the Sea Bitch he sees Benfred's dead body being dragged from the surf.

 

The men of the fishing village have all been killed save a few who were allowed to live in order to bring word of what's happened there to Torrhen's Square. The pretty wives and daughters are taken as salt wives and the unattractive ones who have useful skills are being taken on as thralls provided they don't seem like they're going to be too much trouble. The women who don't fall into either of these categories are raped and killed.

 

Theon doesn't like the idea of attacking a defenseless fishing village but tells himself that he doesn't have much choice. His sister is already on the way to claiming a castle of her own and thinks that the northmen won't realize the danger they're in until Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte are taken. He thinks that songs will be made for Asha and that people will forget about him. He's so sensitive to not being credited that he even commands Dagmer Cleftjaw to stay behind and look after the ships for fear that the raid would have been called "Dagmer's Victory".

 

Dagmer calls down to Theon and asks him why he isn't smiling considering they've just won. Dagmer asks if any of their men were lost and Theon mentions how he killed Todric for drinking and fighting. Dagmer replies that some men are just born to be killed.

 

Dagmer's creepy smile brings back memories for Theon and he thinks about how Dagmer has had more smiles for him than Balon and Ned combined. Theon addresses Dagmer as 'uncle' and tells him that they need to talk. He thinks that he needs Dagmer on his side if his plan is to have a chance of succeeding especially since he's sure that Aeron will oppose him.

 

Theon flatters Dagmer and tells him that there's no man in the Iron Islands who's so skilled with a spear and sword. Dagmer tells Theon that he's a little behind in the times and says there are others who are more skilled than he is. Theon says that Dagmer is still a man that others fear and says that his talents are being wasted raiding tiny villages. Dagmer tells Theon that he's pretty sure Theon is the one who feels like his talents are being wasted and not the other way around. Theon admits that he feels he should have been given Asha's command and has an inner pang of how peevish this must sound.

 

Dagmer tells Theon that he shouldn't take things so personally and says Balon is being this way because he doesn't feel that he knows Theon anymore. Once Theon's older brothers were killed and Theon was made a ward of the Starks, Balon has come to rely heavily on Asha and she's never once let him down.

 

Theon says that he's never let his father down either and points out that the Starks at least seemed to appreciate his value. He mentions that he was a scout for Brynden Tully and claims that he was *this* close to the Kingslayer during the battle in the Whispering Wood. Dagmer asks why he's telling him all of this and says that he knows Theon isn't a craven. He repeats that Balon's reservations come from the fact that the Starks had him for an entire decade.

 

Theon insists that he's no Stark and then thinks to himself that he isn't one because Ned prevented it. He swears aloud that he's a Greyjoy and wants to prove himself, but asks how he'll be able to do this without accomplishing something worth talking about. Dagmer tells Theon that he's young and that there will be other wars where he can prove himself. Veruca Theon wants to prove himself now and says that his uncle Aeron can see to the rest of the raids on the Stony Shore.

 

After a bit more flattery for Dagmer, Theon tells him that if Asha can take a castle then so can he. Dagmer points out that Asha has more men than they do and Theon replies that they also have more wits and courage than Asha and says that he means to accomplish a deed that the singers will go on about for a thousand years. Theon looks at Dagmer and thinks that the older man still has a taste for glory.

 

Dagmer wants to know what his role will be in Theon's scheme and Theon explains that he wants Dagmer to march on Torrhen's Square so that they'll close their gates. Theon is pretty sure that only Leobald Tallhart will be there with a small garrison and thinks that Dagmer's reputation will be enough to terrify them.

 

Dagmer is skeptical of Theon's plan and says that they don't have enough men to take a small castle let alone Torrhen's Square. Theon says that they're going to start building catapults and siege engines, and this only leaves Dagmer feeling more confused. He says that besieging a castle is not the 'Old Way' and argues that there's no glory in starving out the enemy.

 

"Leobald will not know that. When he sees you raising siege towers, his old woman's blood will run cold, and he will bleat for help. Stay your archers, Uncle, and let the raven fly. The castellan at Winterfell is a brave man, but age has stiffened his wits as well as his limbs. When he learns that one of his king's bannermen is under attack by the fearsome Dagmer Cleftjaw, he will summon his strength and ride to Tallhart's aid. It is his duty. Ser Rodrik is nothing if not dutiful."

 

Dagmer still isn't getting it and says that they cannot hope to take Torrhen's Square with so few men especially when help starts to arrive from the other side. He feels Theon is setting them up for a battle that they aren't going to be able to win and insists that Torrhen's Square will never fall.

 

Theon smiles and reveals to Dagmer that Torrhen's Square isn't the castle he means to take.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

The Ironborn are making a run at the Mountain wilth how ugly and disgusting they conduct themselves.

 

Theon trying to shoot the guys horn of ale and shooting him instead kind of sums him up in a lot of ways.

 

Still, this plan to take Winterfell was brilliant and if he had put the castle to the torch and left with all the valuable hostages, it would have been a gigantic victory for the Ironborn.

[Avaleigh]

The moment where Theon accidentally kills Todric shows how easily Theon might have killed Bran. Robb was right to be pissed and even when Theon reflects on that day in the woods he thinks about how unappreciated he felt.

Nuncle for uncle is definitely something he came up with later.

Theon's jealousy and petulance are off the charts for me here. He doesn't try to understand anyone.

Poor Benfred. Those guys clearly had no idea what they were in for.

[vibeology]

Theon is awful. Accidentally killing someone, letting someone you know be drown, plotting against both your bio family and your adopted family so you can feel more important and general pathetic jealousy all add up to one pretty horrible person. The most pathetic was keeping Dagmar on the ship so he couldn't get any credit for an ambush.

 

One thing I often wonder is would Theon be a better or worse person if he'd grown up with the Ironborn. The Ironborn are pretty awful people. I hate reading their chapters because they're so off-putting, but if Theon had grown up there, would he have the same chip on his shoulder? Would he ever be motivated to do the same sort of damage? Somehow growing up in a better environment might have made Theon a worse person.

 

Its amazing how as soon as we get into Theon's head we realize that Robb is a very poor judge of character. Maybe that will be important somewhere else in this story? ;-) Jon, Bran and Catelyn all seem to see through Theon on some level, but Robb trusts him and thinks of this guy like a brother.

[Lady S.]

The moment where Theon accidentally kills Todric shows how easily Theon might have killed Bran. Robb was right to be pissed and even when Theon reflects on that day in the woods he thinks about how unappreciated he felt.

Yeah, but he killed Todric because Todric moved after he let the arrow fly, not because Theon was a bad shot. I don't see what the alternatives were for saving Bran. It was a Mexican standoff where the guy with a knife to Bran had no hope of getting out alive, so it's not like hostage negotiation was an option. He wasn't letting go of Bran because as soon as he did he'd be killed. I really don't believe that Robb would have gone off on Jon that way if he was the marksman taking the shot. I think his anger there was about not being able to save Bran himself. But I am sure Robb had smiles for Theon plenty of other times, so I think Theon was only reminding himself of that day to justify turning against the one Stark who really cared for him.

 

Poor Benfred. Those guys clearly had no idea what they were in for.

RIP Northern knights of summer.

Theon trying to shoot the guys horn of ale and shooting him instead kind of sums him up in a lot of ways.

And that's his idea of showing his men who's boss after he let Aeron bully him into killing Benfred before he could even be questioned, let Aeron tell him the method of execution, and then he didn't have the guts to witness Benfred's death. This chapter really sets up Theon poor leadership abilities and his weaselly way of trying to deny responsibility in his head for things he knows to be wrong.

[Avaleigh]

I think Theon would have been an even bigger asshole if he'd grown up with the Ironborn. I really don't know how Asha turned out to be okay. I suppose it helps that she isn't treated like the average Ironborn woman. 

 

The most pathetic was keeping Dagmar on the ship so he couldn't get any credit for an ambush.

 

This was so ridiculous. You'd think he'd see the sense in having Dagmer take the credit just to at least attempt to leave his options open. 

 

Theon sees a slight in everything and he's so damned entitled. 

 

I agree that Robb doesn't seem to be a very good judge of character and tends to see the best in people.

 

I can't recall any thoughts that Arya has had on Theon. Bran though seemed to always think that Theon was bad news. 

 

Arya's up next and she has more kills...(ETA: More kills left via Jaqen, I mean.) 

Edited March 1, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

Its amazing how as soon as we get into Theon's head we realize that Robb is a very poor judge of character. Maybe that will be important somewhere else in this story? ;-) Jon, Bran and Catelyn all seem to see through Theon on some level, but Robb trusts him and thinks of this guy like a brother.

Catelyn was pretty poor judge of her own foster brother and Jon was murdered by his own men like Robb was, so I don't think that's really a character flaw specific to Robb. And while Jon and Bran didn't like Theon or see him as a brother, I wouldn't say they really had any special insight into him. Jon was shocked he heard that Theon had captured Winterfell and Bran and Rickon were dead. I also doubt Robb was unaware Theon was a dick, but he had no reason to distrust Theon when he was always a good and loyal friend. So I don't think that's really the same as trusting Walder Frey. Thinking Theon was fun and cool in spite of him obviously being an ass was more a symptom of Robb being 15 than anything else. Did no one here have a high school friend whom was really more mean than cool but was a good friend to you?

 

 

I think Theon would have been an even bigger asshole if he'd grown up with the Ironborn. I really don't know how Asha turned out to be okay. I suppose it helps that she isn't treated like the average Ironborn woman. 

I think Asha only comes off okay because because the bar in that family is so low. Her chapters don't ever touch on whether her men indulge in the full rape and pillage which I think is something that needs to be addressed before we can judge how different she is. She's fully behind her dumbass father's northern conquest at this point. She's a fun character in the midst of her nuncles' POVs, but I also find it unrealistic that she doesn't have more of the internalized misogyny that Cersei has after being raised in a very misogynistic culture where she was one of the few women treated better.

[benteen]

Not to mention Catelyn mistrusted Jon.  Jon might have still ended up in the Night's Watch but Jon would have been a loyal ally to Robb if he had stayed behind.  Blackfish seems to suggest Catelyn spoke badly of Jon to him as well.  Her treatment of Jon cost him an ally of undying loyalty.

Edited March 1, 2016 by benteen

[Lady S.]

Blackfish seems to suggest Catelyn spoke badly of Jon to him as well.  Her treatment of Jon cost him an ally of undying loyalty.

That's a line I've always wondered about because even if Catelyn was petty and bitter enough to write letters bitching about Jon to relatives, I would have expected better from the Blackfish than to buy every word about a kid he'd never even met. He spent most of the war with Robb, who would have given a very different account of Jon. Edmure was even a witness to Robb's will legitimizing Jon, IIRC. (The Blackfish was back at Riverrun, but there's nothing in Cat's PoV along the lines of "If only Uncle Brynden were here, he'd support me".)  I don't fully subscribe to the Grand Northern Conspiracy theory, but if the Blackfish also knew about the will, I think that would better explain that line for me. But it is a good point that Catelyn is not all that trusting of any man not related to her, with the exception, unfortunately, of Littlefinger. On that note, Theon's thinking he's no Stark because "Lord Eddard saw to that" reminded me of a similar line of Jon's thinking he was no true Stark because Catelyn saw to that. 

[benteen]

Being resentful of Jon and not wanting Jon to "usurp" the rights of her own children is one thing.  But attacking his character on a personal level in a private conversation with Blackfish in inexcusable. 

 

Yeah, Catelyn's trust of men who weren't her blood wasn't great at all.  She loved Edmure but didn't exactly have the greatest opinion of him either.  Then again, the same can be said for Robb and Blackfish.  I'm looking forward to discussing the summary of that meeting between Robb, Blackfish and Edmure in the next book when it comes.

 

On the subject of Asha, yeah, I'm curious to know whether the men who serve under her conduct themselves like most Ironborn, aka do they rape wome?.  I can't imagine Asha liking that but does she turn a blind eye to it as to keep the men under her loyal?  Though I didn't get the impression in what little we saw that they were doing that at Deepwood Motte.

[vibeology]

When I asked the question about how being raised with the Ironborn would have changed Theon, I still figured he be an asshole. That's pretty much a requirement of growing up on the Iron Islands. But if Theon had never gone to Winterfell, he would never have thought to take it here. Ramsay may still have been able to do damage, but the destruction, the burning the innocent kids who died, all of that could have been avoided if Theon hadn't been taken as a hostage and the North and Westeros as a whole could have been in a much better spot getting ready for Winter.

 

And I also guess I'm not saying that Bran or Catelyn (especially Catelyn) are some amazing judges of character. Only, Robb so far in the story, has been shown to be pretty good at everything. He makes good decisions, wins difficult battles, knows how to bring men to his side. I just think this is the first sign that Robb can make poor decisions and that his innate goodness will have consequences down the line. Its the first time Robb every gambles big and fails, but obviously it won't be the last.

[benteen]

Agreed.  Balon looks like he was prepared for war regardless of what happened to Theon.  But allowing Theon to return to the Iron Islands (with nothing that would guarantee his return) was a huge blunder by Robb and one that led to the assault on Winterfell.  In this, Catelyn was 100% correct.  This bad decision can't be blamed on Stark honor like marrying Jeyne Westerling.  This was a mistake of becoming close to someone, considering them a brother and not noticing their character flaws.  Nobody trusted Theon except for Robb. 

 

This is where aging up Robb in the show made more sense.  On the show, they are practically the same age so they are best friends and brothers.  In the book, there's a five-year age difference although they seem pretty close.  So did Robb view Theon as the big brother he never had?

[Lady S.]

I could see an Ironborn-raised Theon being a relatively harmless jackass the way Aeron was before being born again, just a drunken wastrel winning actual pissing contests. Fun uncle Aeron could have been a big influence and as far as we know he never raped anyone or murdered any children. It's also possible his mother and Asha and uncle Rodrik could have been better positive influences. Tris Botley has his own issues but he and Qarl the Maid show that not all Ironborn men are terrible brutes, the bigger issue for Theon would be the Greyjoy patterns of abuse and dysfunction. They're just such a fucked-up family.

[nodorothyparker]

Robb is a Stark in the sense that I think that famous Stark sense of honor so completely colors everything they do and how they see the world.    I remember thinking back during the chapter when Robb was sending his peace/exchange terms to Kings Landing he was acting as if he fully expects everyone on the other end to adhere to the exact same standards of honor he does even though he already knows thanks to how Ned lost his head that they don't.   He was even sending his terms with a man he expects to return and meekly resume his imprisonment.  Now we know that Cleos Frey does, but he also returns with Tyrion's secret jailbreak team because in reality that's who he's actually dealing with.  So it's not really a stretch for me that Robb in sending Theon to the Iron Islanders really thought no further than hey, he was raised with me and we've been like brothers all these years and no brother of mine would betray me when it's a deal that would benefit both of our families.

 

Still catching up here but generally, I tend to think the relative isolation of the North compared to the other Seven Kingdoms tends to make them more insular and distrustful of anyone who isn't them.  Their gods and their customs are different and they surely have at least some awareness of how outsiders view them.

[Avaleigh]

Arya VIII

 

It's busy and a bit chaotic over at Harrenhal because Tywin has finally decided to march. Addam Marbrand is the first of the captains to depart and a bunch of women cry when they see him leave. Weese says that Marbrand is Tywin's most daring commander and Arya hopes that Marbrand and all of his men die because she knows they're going off to fight Robb.

 

Weese has Arya running around the castle delivering messages, and she toys with the idea of fleeing but ultimately decides against it for fear of Weese. He's threatened to hand runaways over to Vargo Hoat and Hoat is known for crippling his victims. She thinks that she might be willing to risk making a run for it if Weese were dead.

 

Weese has no idea that Arya can read so he never seals the messages he gives her. Arya peaks at all of them but they never contain anything good. She give one illiterate knight a message about payment on a gambling debt and when she explains to the knight what's in the note, he tries to attack her. She ends up snatching a silver drinking horn from the knight and delivers it to Weese. Weese is pleased with Arya for taking the initiative and tells her that she'll get to share a capon with him later as a reward.

 

Arya searches for Jaqen but can't seem to find him. She summons the nerve to ask one of the guards and a guard tells her that Jaqen should still be around if he's one of Lorch's men since they'll be staying behind along with the Bloody Mummers.

 

Arya thinks about how the Mountain, Polliver, Raff, and Dunsen will all be leaving when Tywin does. She wants to find Jaqen before they leave so that she can give him another name.

 

Weese sends Arya to the armory with a note and she finally has the opportunity to talk to Gendry. At first she isn't sure that she wants to talk to him because she blames him for them getting caught, but she does anyway and Gendry is soon talking to her about how Hot Pie heard her yelling 'Winterfell!' during the battle at the holdfast. Gendry says that he covered for her and tells her to stick to the same story that he told Hot Pie if Hot Pie ever asks her. She briefly considers giving Hot Pie's name to Jaqen.

 

Arya collects the sword that she was sent to retrieve and feels stronger now that she has a weapon back in her hand. She wonders if she'd be able to get away with stealing a horse from the stables by presenting the note that Weese has given her to one of the stableboys since it's unlikely that any of them would be able to read it. She considers attempting to escape but keeps coming back to what will happen if she ends up being caught by Weese. She tries not to think about what it will feel like to have her feet cut off.

 

A few archers are talking about Robb and Arya overhears them saying that Starks are more like wolves than men. One man talks about how Robb has giants fighting for him and Arya thinks to herself that they'd better run because Robb is a Stark who is more wolf than man, and so is she.

 

Just as Arya momentarily feels like she's back to being a wolf, Weese appears in front of her and slaps her with the back of his hand for taking so long. Her tongue is bleeding and she's thinking about how much she hates Weese. Weese doesn't like the way Arya is looking at him and asks her if she wants to get slapped again. He orders her down to the brewhouse with a message for Tuffleberry. He tells her to run if she wants to be able to eat dinner and says that he'll beat her bloody if she gets lost again. She thinks to herself that Weese is never going to have another chance to beat her.

 

Arya runs into Rorge on her way to the brewhouse and Rorge taunts her by reminding her that he once promised to fuck her with her sword. She takes a step backward and Rorge comments that Arya isn't so brave now that he isn't in chains anymore. Arya brings up the fact that she saved his life and he replies by saying that he owes her another fucking for that bit of generosity.

 

Arya tells Rorge that she's looking for Jaqen and Rorge's expression immediately changes. He tells her that Jaqen is in the bathhouse then snaps at her to get out of the way. Arya wonders if Rorge is scared of Jaqen.

 

She goes into the bathhouse and finds Jaqen in one of the tubs being bathed by a serving girl. When she sees that the serving girl isn't going to leave, she whispers the name 'Weese' into Jaqen's ear. Jaqen goes back to closing his eyes and tells Arya to 'Tell his lordship that it will be at his leisure.'

 

Dinner that evening sucks as usual and Arya watches Weese noisily eating the capon that he promised to share with her. He gives a wing of the capon to the woman he's sleeping with and doesn't notice Arya looking at him until he's nearly done. Arya sees that there's still some meat left on the thigh and thinks that he's stopped eating because he's suddenly remembered to give her some; she even feels a little bad that she's given his name to Jaqen.

 

Instead of giving her some of the capon, Weese grabs her throat, slaps her face, and shoves her to the floor for daring to look at him. He tells her to keep her eyes to herself or he'll scoop one of them out and feed it to his dog. Her hem is torn as she falls to the floor and he tells her that she'd better mend it before going to sleep. Weese eats the last bit of meat in front of Arya and then gives the bones to his dog.

 

Weese is the first name Arya recites on her her list before falling asleep. She hopes that he'll be dead by the time she wakes up in the morning and is disappointed when Weese kicks her awake with his toe. Tywin is finally leaving and Weese says that the people who are staying behind are dreaming if they think that life is going to get easier now that Tywin and the majority of the men are gone. He says that with fewer hands around to help, they're finally going to learn what hard work really is. Arya thinks to herself that Weese isn't going to be the one to teach them about hard work and then worries that he can hear her thoughts. She stares at her food and doesn't dare look at him again.

 

From the Wailing Tower Arya watches Tywin and his men leave Harrenhal. She watches the Mountain and Polliver go by and notes that Polliver is still wearing Gendry's helm.

 

A shiver crept up Arya's spine as she watched them pass under the great iron portcullis of Harrenhal. Suddenly she knew that she had made a terrible mistake. I'm so stupid, she thought. Weese did not matter, no more than Chiswyck had. These were the men who mattered, the ones she ought to have killed. Last night she could have whispered any of them dead, if only she hadn't been so mad at Weese for hitting her and lying about the capon. Lord Tywin, why didn't I say Lord Tywin?

 

She hopes that it isn't too late to change her mind and goes racing to find Jaqen. As she's running down the stairs she hears a loud shriek of pain and fear. Weese is already dead by the time Arya reaches the scene. His throat has been torn open by his dog and the dog is continuing to chomp on his face in front of everyone. The people standing around are shocked and someone finally shoots the dog as it's gnawing at one of Weese's ears. One man comments on how odd it is since Weese has had the dog ever since she was a puppy.

 

One man boils it down to the Harrenhal curse and a woman swears that she won't sleep in the castle for another night.

 

Arya looks up from the grisly scene and sees Jaqen leaning against the Wailing Tower. When he sees that Arya is watching him, he lifts his hand to his face and puts two fingers against his cheek.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

How disappointing that the Harrenhal set only had a bathhouse for s3 and we missed out on seeing Jaqen in there.

 

Rorge being terrified by just the mention of Jaqen was the most interesting part for me. Did he learn something about his former cagemate? Or see Jaqen do something freaky after Arya freed them?

 

This is the murder genie wish where Arya loses her chance with Tywin after making an impulsive wish. She did need Weese dead in order to escape, though, so the best plan would probably have been to use him as her first test wish and then get Gregor and/or Tywin with the others, but it's possible fear of Weese's supposed mind reading abilities was holding her back before. I also wonder if she was focusing on Gregor's mooks because she felt they were her responsibility. The commanders were already obvious targets for Robb and their other enemies, but no one would have cared about these guys except someone who personally witnessed their awfulness. Think back to her loss of innocence when Mycah was murdered and no one else really cared about punishing the crime. Her list is all about remembering victims of injustice, and most of the names are not there because of Ned's death. Could be she thought her murder genie was the only way any of them would ever face justice. After all, murder genie or no, the responsibility to decide a war should not rest on a 10yo, but she could always protect her own life and fight her much smaller, personal war, which no one else was going to fight. 

 

I liked seeing all the rumors swirling about Robb's supernatural prowess, and noticed the contrast between Arya's and Sansa's reactions to such ideas. Arya takes heart from them while Sansa was relieved to learn from Tyrion that Robb wasn't leading an army of wargs, but Joffrey also characterizing the northmen as cannibals and beating Sansa for having the "blood of the wolf" probably had a lot to do with Sansa's thinking there.

[benteen]

Yeah, she needed Weese out of the way for her own personal safely.  Like you said though, Lady S, ideally this would have been her first kill but she wasted one on Chiswyck. 

 

One line I love on the show is when she runs to find him and asks him where he was, to which Jaqen replied "A man has patrol duty."

[Avaleigh]

Regarding why Rorge is scared of Jaqen, maybe he saw Jaqen change his face back in King's Landing? It was always odd that Jaqen was ever caught and put into a cell in the first place given what we know of his power. I can't see some common gold cloaks being able to capture him unless he wanted to be captured.

 

This also makes me think about how Yoren seems to instantly know that Jaqen is extremely dangerous and puts him in a category with somebody like Rorge even though Jaqen seems to be decent enough on the surface. 

[nodorothyparker]

This chapter is frustrating because while you absolutely understand why Arya has to name Weese for her own safety, even she is able to acknowledge that she basically wasted her first pick on Chiswyck and she's realizing as she sees them all ride out that she should have aimed higher.  The possibilities had she been able to catch Jaqen and offer an alternate pick are tantalizing to consider, especially in light of the coming battle.  Naming Tywin or the Mountain when they're no longer in the castle also would have been interesting even if for no other reason than to prove definitively whether Jaqen even is for real.  At this point all we have is him saying so and Chiswyck falling off a walkway that could have just been a drunk taking a fall.   Weese's death at least feels a little less ambiguous.

 

Rorge's reaction to her saying Jaqen's name caught my attention too.  You wonder what he's seen, but that again opens that whole Pandora's box of wondering what Jaqen was doing in a black cell in the first place. 

 

It's a small detail but I get a kick out of how much pomp and splendor Tywin rides out with.  Having four standard bearers is such a Lannister gesture.  

Edited March 3, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn V

 

Catelyn is two days away from Riverrun when she and her escort come upon a scout of Robb's. She thinks to herself that she's never been so happy to see the Frey sigil before and asks the scout to take them to her uncle Brynden. She learns that the Blackfish is with Robb and that Martyn Rivers has taken over command of the outriders in the Blackfish's absence.

 

The scout takes Catelyn and her escort to see Martyn Rivers and as they're riding, she mentions that Renly is dead. She asks for news of Robb and learns about her son's victory at Oxcross against Stafford Lannister. Once they reach Martyn, he tells her that her brother has commanded them to escort her back to Riverrun.

 

Martyn tells Catelyn that Tywin is marching on Riverrun and should be there within three to four days. He says that they shouldn't linger, so they quickly set off and Martyn starts giving the men more details on the battle at Oxcross. At least one singer has already made a song about the battle and Martyn tells Catelyn that she'll probably hear the song later that night.

 

Robb's men have been paying the Lannisters back for what they've done to the Riverlands. Karstark and Glover have been raiding along the coast, Lady Mormont has been driving cattle back into the Riverlands, and the Greatjon has taken over three of the Lannister gold mines.

 

Martyn tells them about how Grey Wind was able to find a trail for Robb and his men to take so that they could slip past the Golden Tooth without being seen by the Lannisters. Martyn mentions a rumor that Robb had Stafford's head fed to Grey Wind and Catelyn sharply replies that her son isn't a savage.

When they make camp that night, Brienne goes to Catelyn's tent and asks her if she has her leave to go. Catelyn asks Brienne where she plans on going and Brienne says that she wants to return to Storm's End. Catelyn asks Brienne if she means to kill Stannis and Brienne admits it saying that she swore a vow to Renly. Catelyn agrees with Brienne that vows should be kept but tells Brienne that Stannis is too well protected.

 

Brienne thinks that she can handle any men who are guarding Stannis and says she never should have fled. Catelyn tells Brienne that Renly's death wasn't her fault and says Brienne giving up her life over this won't be good for anyone. She tries to touch Brienne in a comforting way and tells her that she knows how hard it is, but Brienne brushes off her hand and tells her that no one can possibly know.

 

"You're wrong," Catelyn said sharply. "Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white throat and squeezing until her face turns black."

 

Brienne says if she feels that way about it then she doesn't understand why Catelyn is holding her back unless it's because of what Stannis said at the parley. Catelyn starts talking about whether or not Stannis is the rightful King and Brienne doesn't believe that he is.

 

"He's not. Robert was never the rightful king either, even Renly said as much. Jaime Lannister murdered the rightful king, after Robert killed his lawful heir on the Trident. Where were the gods then? The gods don't care about men, no more than kings care about peasants."

 

Catelyn argues that a good king does care and Brienne starts talking about what a good man Renly was and how he would have been the best king ever. Catelyn gently tells Breinne that Renly is gone and their choices for kings at the moment are Stannis, Joffrey, and Robb. Brienne worries that Robb and Catelyn will want to make peace with Stannis and Catelyn tells Brienne that she honestly doesn't know what's going to happen. She admits though that she'll do anything to keep her children safe. Brienne feels that she isn't made to be a mother and says that she needs to fight. Catelyn tells Brienne that she should fight for the living and not for the dead and points out that Renly's enemies are Robb's enemies too.

 

Brienne says she doesn't know Robb so she'd rather serve Catelyn if Catelyn will have her. Catelyn is surprised and Brienne explains that she is grateful for the help Catelyn gave her back in Renly's pavilion. Catelyn mentions that Brienne was innocent and Brienne points out that Catelyn still could have easily let them kill her. Catelyn thinks to herself that on some level maybe she didn't want to be the only living witness to that freaky shadow.

 

Catelyn tells Brienne that she's taken many highborn women into her service over the years but never one like Brienne. She tells Brienne that she isn't a battle commander and Brienne replies that Catelyn still has a kind of "woman's courage" and suspects that Catelyn won't hold her back from killing Stannis. She makes Catelyn swear that she won't hold her back from killing Stannis when the time comes.

 

Catelyn is reminded of Stannis saying that Robb's time will come too and thinking about it gives her a chill.

 

Brienne kneels before Catelyn and swears by the old gods and the new to be her sworn shield. Catelyn swears to Brienne by the old gods and the new that she'll always have a place at her table and that she'll never ask anything dishonorable of her. Catelyn asks Brienne to rise and they clasp each other's hands. Catelyn smiles and thinks about how many times she watched Ned take a man into his service. She wonders what Ned would think if he could see her now.

 

When they finally reach Riverrun they see bodies of Lannister men hanging from the battlements. Wendel talks about what a pretty sight the dead bodies are and Perwyn Frey jokes about how their friends have got started without them. Brienne is the only one who isn't laughing and amused at the sight of the dead men.

 

Catelyn thinks that if the Kingslayer has been killed then Sansa and Arya are dead.

 

Edmure rides out to meet Catelyn and her escort and she's told that their father's condition is more or less the same. He tells her about how Tywin is on the march and says that they've received three ravens from Storm's End from Ser Cortnay Penrose asking for assistance. Penrose says that he'll swear allegiance to whoever helps him and says that he fears for the boy if Stannis ends up getting him. Brienne realizes that Edric Storm must be the boy Penrose is referring to.

 

Stannis promises that the garrison of Storm's End may go free provided that they yield the castle and hand over Edric Storm, but Ser Cortnay will not consent. Catelyn reflects on how Penrose is risking everything for a baseborn child that isn't even a relation of his. Catelyn asks if Edmure sent Penrose a response and Edmure says that he didn't because they don't have any way of helping them.

 

Ser Robin Ryger asks Catelyn about Renly's death and says they've been hearing some awfully strange stories. Edmure tells his sister that people are saying that she killed Renly and others are saying that it was some southron woman. He looks pointedly at Brienne as he says this. Brienne swears that Catelyn didn't have anything to do with Renly's murder Catelyn admits that she and Brienne were both there when Renly died but swears that neither of them had anything to do with his death. She doesn't mention the part about the shadow.

 

Catelyn asks about the dead men hanging from the battlements and learns that the men were hanged after trying to free Jaime Lannister. When Catelyn hears the details of the attempted escape, she thinks that it has Tyrion's fingers all over it. She thinks about how she once considered Tyrion to be the least dangerous of the Lannisters and isn't so sure about that now.

 

The Kingslayer was recaptured but it was a near thing since Jaime was able to get hold of a sword and took out three people before he was eventually retaken. He's been put in a dungeon cell and Cleos Frey, who swears he knew nothing of the plot, is now in Jaime's old tower cell.

 

The discussion turns to whether or not they'll be able to make common cause with Stannis and Catelyn thinks to herself that Stannis has made cause with a greater and darker power.

 

When they get inside Riverrun, Catelyn sees that there are hundreds of smallfolk and asks Edmure what they're all doing there. Edmure says that his people were afraid and Catelyn thinks that only her soft headed brother would allow a bunch of useless mouths into the castle just as they're likely to be under siege. Part of Catelyn loves this quality in her brother and other times not so much.

 

Robb left instructions for Catelyn to be escorted to the Twins upon her return so that she can help him choose a bride. Catelyn says that she isn't leaving and thinks about how she doesn't want to leave her dying father to help Robb pick a wife.

 

Catelyn tells Edmure that there's nothing to be gained and everything to lose if they end up fighting Tywin on an open field. Edmure is annoyed that Catelyn is bringing this up and says that they shouldn't discuss battle plans out in the open yard. They go to the godswood and Catelyn bluntly tells Edmure that he doesn't have the strength to fight the Lannisters in an open field since Tywin has twice the numbers.

 

Edmure says that Robb has won battles against worse odds and reveals that he has a plan. He tells his sister that she's forgotten about Roose Bolton and says that he's sent the garrison Robb left at the Twins to join up with Roose. Catelyn isn't happy about this and reminds Edmure that the garrison was kept at the Twins to make sure that Lord Walder remains loyal to them. 
 
Edmure insists that Lord Walder has been loyal to them and mentions how Freys fought bravely at Oxcross and in the Whispering Wood. Martyn Rivers has done well scouting, Ser Perwyn helped safely escort Catelyn to meet with Renly. He mentions Robb's betrothal and how Roose has just married one of Lord Walder's daughters.

 

Edmure has commanded Roose to take Harrenhal so that Tywin won't be able to retreat to it. As Catelyn is listening to her brother's plan, she finds herself wishing that the Blackfish were there. She thinks about how many battles the Blackfish has been in comparison to Edmure and how Edmure has only fought in one battle and it was one that he lost. Edmure says that even Lords Blackwood and Bracken think his plan is a good one and they so rarely agree on anything. He swears the plan will work, so Catelyn kisses him on the cheek and tells him that she hopes it will.

 

Catelyn goes to visit with her father and he doesn't recognize her. He's crying and asks her if she's forgiven him. Catelyn soon realizes that her father thinks she's Lysa and listens to him repeatedly ask for forgiveness. He says that Jon will be a good husband and doesn't want to hear the name of that "wretched boy" ever again.

 

Maester Vyman comes in to give Hoster some milk of the poppy and Catelyn feels hurt over how hard it is to watch her father in this deteriorating condition. Vyman tells Catelyn that the end for Hoster is near and that somebody should ride to go tell Brynden. He asks about Lysa and Catelyn agrees to write to her sister but already knows that she won't come.

 

Catelyn wonders who the wretched boy of Lysa's was and thinks about how she doesn't blame Lysa for not wanting to marry Jon Arryn considering he was twenty years older than their father.

 

When Catelyn returns to her tower she finds Utherydes Wayn waiting for her along with two Silent Sisters. She realizes that they've brought Ned with them and Utherydes confirms that Ser Cleos brought the bones with him from King's Landing.

 

She asks to be taken to Ned and has a Silent Sister uncover the remains. She looks at the bones and thinks that this isn't Ned. She thinks about what his eyes used to look like and knows that his eyes became crow food. She notices that Ice isn't with Ned and Utherydes says that the greatsword wasn't returned to them. Catelyn supposes that she should thank Cersei for this small favor and Utherydes tells her that it was actually Tyrion who arranged to have Ned's bones brought back. Catelyn thinks to herself that one day she will thank them all.

 

Catelyn thanks the Sisters for their service and asks them to bring Ned's bones to rest in Winterfell. She says that Hal Mollen can be their escort since he's the captain of guards.

 

She asks to be left alone with Ned for the night and thinks about how she envies the Silent Sisters for supposedly being able to communicate with the dead.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Gah, Edmure should never again be allowed to say 'I have a plan.' 

 

Catelyn's attitude towards the smallfolk being inside of Riverrun was a little cold. 

 

The moment between Brienne and Catelyn was touching. I did roll my eyes at Brienne saying that Catelyn has a woman's courage.

 

Word certainly travelled fast about Catelyn and Brienne possibly being involved with Renly's death.

 

I liked the detail of Brienne not laughing with the others at the bodies of the dead men. 

 

I wonder what would have happened if Jaime's escape had been successful. What would the main differences be? The plan was pretty clever and I sort of wish they'd kept this over the cousin killing stuff that we got instead. 

[nodorothyparker]

This chapter does absolutely nothing to dissuade me from my general opinion that all of the Tullys save maybe the Blackfish are a little slow on the uptake.  Edmure is completely clueless here that he isn't the battle strategist Robb is and is just going about willy nilly undoing everything Robb has set up.

 

I'm most struck by Edmure's decision to pull the Northern troops from the Twins and give them to Roose Bolton.  Those troops were meant to ensure Walder Frey behaved himself and didn't try to back out of any of their dealings.  You can't help but wonder how everything that comes next would have been changed had they still been there.  I don't know if their presence would have been enough to keep the Freys from flipping out when they heard the news of Robb's marriage, but if the Freys had struck them then at least everyone else would have known beforehand that going to any weddings or social gatherings at the Twins was probably not a good idea.

 

I like the relationship between Catelyn and Brienne.  Normally I don't find Catelyn very warm at all to anyone who isn't one of her kids and sometimes not even then but she comes off very sympathetic with Brienne even if it sometimes veers into an unattractive kind of pity.

 

If Jaime's escape had been successful we wouldn't have gotten the wonderful Jaime-Catelyn conversation we know is coming or one of my favorite storylines of the next book.

[Lady S.]

The Catelyn/Brienne oath swearing is one of my favorite plot points because of the way a knight swearing fealty to a lord/king is played with by having a lady knight swearing to a lady/king's mother, and because it really is one of the few instances of a plotline driven by women. It especially stands out in these first two books where the only female friendship was Sansa/Jeyne amidst Ned/Robert, Stannis/Davos, Jon/Sam/Pyp/Grenn, Robb/Theon, Tyrion/Bronn and any other bromances I'm forgetting. When Catelyn mentioned having taken many ladies into her services I wondered who the hell they were and what happened to them since there was no court at Winterfell and the only woman serving her was Old Nan. 

 

I also feel a lot of Stoneheart foundation in this chapter, with the oath Stoneheart believes Brienne broke, the oath Stoneheart arguably does break by forcing Brienne to trick Jaime into a trap, Catelyn's vivid revenge fantasy of choking Cersei, and her saying she thank all of the Lannisters some day, which felt like the way the Lannisters say they'll pay debts to their enemies.

 

Brienne was naive to believe in Renly's bullshit, but in her first answer about Robert never being the true king, the gods not caring about kings, and kings not caring about peasants, it's interesting how much she was on the same page as Jaime's jaded views.

 

Edmure has my undying love for actually caring about his peasant, and I hope he survives the series just because otherwise his entire role is likely to be being the family buttmonkey and then getting killed off. But, oh boy, taking the northern troops at the Twins away and saying it'll be fine because Roose Bolton is Walder's in-law now, ouch. Though I still say Robb could have prevented all of this with better communication (if Maege Mormont is driving cattle to the riverlands, surely she could deliver a message), and the only reason I can see for why he didn't is that the story needs that miscommunication to fuck up Robb's campaign and help put him on the path to doom.

[Holmbo]

Brienne was naive to believe in Renly's bullshit, but in her first answer about Robert never being the true king, the gods not caring about kings, and kings not caring about peasants, it's interesting how much she was on the same page as Jaime's jaded views.

Jaime has never had the experience of serving someone he believed in as a leader. It makes me wonder how he'd react to a competent person taking the throne (assuming Tommen and Cersei were already dead or disposed of at that point).

[Holmbo]

Brienne was naive to believe in Renly's bullshit, but in her first answer about Robert never being the true king, the gods not caring about kings, and kings not caring about peasants, it's interesting how much she was on the same page as Jaime's jaded views.

Jaime has never had the experience of serving someone he believed in as a leader. It makes me wonder how he'd react to a competent person taking the throne (assuming Tommen and Cersei were already dead or disposed of at that point).

[Holmbo]

Brienne was naive to believe in Renly's bullshit, but in her first answer about Robert never being the true king, the gods not caring about kings, and kings not caring about peasants, it's interesting how much she was on the same page as Jaime's jaded views.

Jaime has never had the experience of serving someone he believed in as a leader. It makes me wonder how he'd react to a competent person taking the throne (assuming Tommen and Cersei were already dead or disposed of at that point).

[benteen]

Edmure definitely deserves respect for looking out for the smallfolk.  It's nice to see one of these Lords who are that considerate.  Of course, Catelyn has problems with it...she has problems with everything. ;)

 

Still, reading this chapter, every decision that Edmure makes otherwise strikes me as a guy itching for a fight because he was humiliated with how badly he performed in his first fight.  To me, that's why he was so eager to fight the Lannisters out in the field.  GRRM keeps it vague as to what Robb actually said to Edmure beyond "Hold the line" or something that the effect.  I get the impression that Robb decided to keep his plan between him and the Blackfish and that he didn't trust Edmure enough to fill him in on the whole plan.  Maybe he was right to feel that way.  But like it or not, Edmure is Robb's top bannerman as Lord of Riverrun.  He needs to fill him in on these kind of things.  Maybe if he had explained just what his plan was, to trap Tywin between two armies, maybe Edmure would have followed Robb's instructions to the letter.

Edited March 4, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys III

 

Dany is riding in a palanquin with Xaro Xhoan Daxos and is talking to him about how the Pureborn aren't lifting a finger to help her even though she's bribed all of the right people and made the customary gestures. When she's finally permitted to meet the Pureborn in the Hall of a Thousand Thrones, they listen to her and politely tell her 'no'.

 

Xaro asks Dany if she tried crying for them since the Qartheen are known to be moved by tears and see it as a mark of a civilized person. Dany replies that the blood of the dragon doesn't cry.

 

Dany is frustrated that she wasted a bunch of gold on bribes that didn't do anything and asks Xaro what would happen if she tried to get her gifts back. Xaro says they'd probably send a Sorrowful Man after her to murder her in her sleep.

 

Dany thinks that she'd be lost without Xaro and credits him with helping her generate a source of income from the dragons. Xaro makes sure that anyone who wants to see the dragons pays a token and the gifts range from the grand to absurd. Some people offer gold or jewels or spices and one women brings the dried corpse of her husband and insists that it has magic powers. The Tourmaline Brotherhood give Dany a crown in the shape of a three headed dragon and the heads are carved from jade, ivory, and onyx.

 

The crown is the only gift that she insists on keeping even after Xaro urges her to sell it. She thinks of how Viserys had to sell their mother's crown and how people called him a beggar king. She wants to keep this crown so that people will call her a queen. She thinks about how she still feels like a beggar even with a crown and understands why Viserys was so angry and bitter. She wonders if the situation will drive her mad the way it did Viserys. She tells herself that she has the dragons and that they make all the difference.

 

The discussion turns to wine and Dany declares that the Arbor has the best wine in the world. She thinks about how Lord Redwyne fought for her father until the very end and wonders if he would fight for her too. She tells Xaro to come with her to the Arbor and says that they'll need to go in a warship. Xaro says that he doesn't have any warships and tells Dany that war is bad for trade.

 

Xaro asks Dany to marry him but she doesn't really buy the idea that he's attracted to her, and thinks about how he surrounds himself with "beautiful boys". He tries to get her to let go of the idea of taking the Iron Throne but Dany refuses to be swayed. Xaro cries a single tear for Dany and asks her if there's anything that will turn her away from this mad path. She admits that she nothing will and wishes that she could feel as confident as she sounds.

 

Dany talks about getting ships from the Thirteen but Xaro says that even if she gets the ships she's not going to be able to fill them with men. Dany says that she'd pay these men to join her but Xaro has his doubts that Dany will be able to afford the number of men that she needs.

 

If Dany can't find help from the Thirteen, the Tourmaline Brotherhood, or some other group then she thinks she'll have to accept help from Pyat Pree and the warlocks. Xaro warns Dany that those blue lipped warlocks are all liars and says they won't give her anything because they don't have anything to give. Dany tells Xaro that she wouldn't consider going to the warlocks at all if he would be willing to help her.

 

Xaro talks about all of the things he's given Dany and brings up the fact that he's given her and her people a place to live. Dany says that the many presents Xaro has given her are nice but they aren't the ships and soldiers that she asked for.

 

A firemage is performing just outside of the bazaar, so Dany gets out to watch as the mage builds a fiery ladder that's forty feet high. As the mage climbs the ladder it dissolves behind him. Once he reaches the top of the ladder he disappears completely as does the ladder.

 

Jhogo thinks the firemage performed a good trick but Quaithe appears out of nowhere and says that it was no trick. Quaithe says that half a year ago that firemage wouldn't have been able to make that fiery ladder and credits the increase in his powers to Dany's presence. She warns Dany that she should leave Qarth soon before she's prevented from ever leaving again.

 

Dany asks Quaithe where she would have her go.

 

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

 

Dany understands that Quaithe wants her to go to Asshai and is told by the shadowbinder that she'll find truth in Asshai. Quaithe leaves after saying this and Rakharo tells Dany that she shouldn't trust a person who isn't willing to show their own face. Aggo agrees that this is known. Xaro tells Dany that her Dothraki are wiser than they realize.

 

When Dany returns to her chambers she thinks about how her dragons are growing and how she doesn't have the first idea how to go about training them.

 

Jorah visits with Dany later and correctly guesses that the Pureborn have refused to help her; he tells her that she isn't going to find any help in Qarth. Dany tells Jorah that Xaro asked her to marry him again. Jorah breaks it down and tells Dany that Xaro is only interested in her for her dragons.

 

Dany tells Jorah about seeing the firemage and Quaithe but he doesn't have any comment. Jorah doesn't think that Dany should head for Asshai and thinks that she should head east. Dany argues that House Targaryen still has friends in the Free Cities and Jorah replies that her friend Illyrio would easily sell her for the right price. Dany reminds Jorah that she and Viserys lived in Illyrio's home for half a year and if he'd wanted to sell her he could have done it then. Jorah reminds Dany that Illyrio did sell her to Khal Drogo.

 

Dany is stung when Jorah says this even though she admits to herself that he's right. She continues to defend Illyrio and says that he protected her and Viserys from Robert's assassins. Jorah tells Dany that Illyrio is totally out for himself and asks her what she truly knows about the man. Dany knows that Illyrio was the one to give her the dragon eggs and Jorah says that if Illyrio had known that they were actually going to hatch he never would have given them up. Jorah says that even if Illyrio is the friend Dany believes him to be that his support won't be enough.

 

Jorah tells Dany that she's going to need support from some of the lords of Westeros if she's going to be successful in taking the Iron Throne. He points out that Dany invading would be the very thing that might unite the realm since they're unlikely to be happy about the idea of being invaded by a bunch of foreigners who don't even speak the Common Tongue. Dany protests that she's the rightful queen but Jorah tells her that she'll seem like a stranger and men will have everyone reason to mistrust and fear her. 

 

Jorah goes on to say that the longer Dany stays in Qarth, the easier it will be for her enemies to find her. He points out that an assassination attempt was made on Dany's life after word spread about her pregnancy and asks what the reaction will be when her enemies learn about her dragons.

 

Drogon was curled up beneath her arm, as hot as a stone that has soaked all day in the blazing sun. Rhaegal and Viserion were fighting over a scrap of meat, buffeting each other with their wings as smoke hissed from their nostrils. My furious children, she thought. They must not come to harm. "The comet led me to Qarth for a reason. I had hoped to find my army here, but it seems that will not be. What else remains, I ask myself?" I am afraid, she realized, but I must be brave. "Come the morrow, you must go to Pyat Pree."

Edited March 4, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

I also feel a lot of Stoneheart foundation in this chapter, with the oath Stoneheart believes Brienne broke, the oath Stoneheart arguably does break by forcing Brienne to trick Jaime into a trap, Catelyn's vivid revenge fantasy of choking Cersei, and her saying she thank all of the Lannisters some day, which felt like the way the Lannisters say they'll pay debts to their enemies.

How do we know what valonqar means? It's only from Cersei's POV, right? I feel like all cards are on the table here and that was indeed a vivid revenge fantasy. I don't think that Stoneheart will kill Cersei but it did make me think of the prophecy and it made me wonder if GRRM would have put the line in there if he'd had it in his head originally. Somehow I doubt it.  

 

I agree too that Catelyn sounded like a Lannister when she said she'd pay them all back one day. I thought she sounded like a light version of Cersei when she was annoyed at seeing all of the peasants inside of Riverrun. It's funny too that this just comes after a conversation she has with Brienne where she says that a good king cares about the peasants in his kingdom. 

[Lady S.]

Still, reading this chapter, every decision that Edmure makes otherwise strikes me as a guy itching for a fight because he was humiliated with how he performed in his first fight.  To me, that's why he was so eager to fight the Lannisters out in the field.  GRRM keeps it vague as to what Robb actually said to Edmure beyond "Hold the line" or something that the effect.  I get the impression that Robb decided to keep his plan between him and the Blackfish and that he didn't trust Edmure enough to fill him in on the whole plan.  Maybe he was right to feel that way.  But like it or not, Edmure is Robb's top bannerman as Lord of Riverrun.  He needs to fill him in on these kind of things.  Maybe if he had explained just what his plan was, to trap Tywin between two armies, maybe Edmure would have followed Robb's instructions to the letter.

Oh, yeah, the line about Robb facing worse odds and winning was a dead giveaway that wounded pride at being outdone by his teenage nephew was fueling his decision making. If he'd used these tactics of defending the river crossings and Riverrun itself when the Lannisters first invaded, instead of trying to defend every inch of Tully soil, then he wouldn't have needed Robb to save his ass from Jaime. And what did he think Tywin was going to do with the Trident and Harrenhal both blocked to him, just wait for Robb to join Edmure so they could all attack him in the open?

I wonder if Jorah doesn't want to go back to Illyrio's because he's worried Illyrio is pissed that Jorah gave up spying for Illyrio and Varys.

I liked Dany reflecting on the similarities between her experiences and Viserys' and worrying there but for the grace of dragons go I. I think Dany is the stronger sibling, but I think Viserys, for all his awfulness, was mostly a victim of circumstances.

[benteen]

As awful as Viserys was to Dany, I agree that circumstances really conspired against him.  He was pretty much on his own by the time he reached 10 or 12, was constantly on the run and was forced to sell what he had in order to survive.  All while pretty much raising Dany.  Perhaps with age and wisdom, Viserys might have been able to better endure this but it's tough to expect that from a kid.  Once Darry died, he lost any mentor he really had that cared anything about him.

 

He was just old enough to remember what it used to be like for him in King's Landing and it was all taken away from him.

Edited March 4, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

I remember too that in the last book Jorah was open to the idea of going to Asshai. He thought it was a good idea so I wonder what's changed. 

 

I am curious if we'll ever find out why the shadowbinders wear masks. It's so odd that we don't know her eye color. I can't think of a reason to hide them unless it's going to turn out to be significant. I am glad that the show put to rest the rumors that Quaithe is Dany from the future. That theory never made sense to me. 

 

Dany claiming that the blood of the dragon doesn't cry makes me think she doesn't know much about her family. 

 

Thinking about the warlocks with the blue lips I just realized that shade of the evening reminds me of that spice in the movie Dune. (I never read the book but saw the movie for the first time a couple of years ago.) I wonder how conscious GRRM was of this.

 

Is this crown of Dany's ever mentioned again? I can't recall her ever wearing it. 

 

ETA:

 

Tyrion's next and things are about to pop off in King's Landing. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

I am curious if we'll ever find out why the shadowbinders where masks. It's so odd that we don't know her eye color. I can't think of a reason to hide them unless it's going to turn out to be significant. I am glad that the show put to rest the rumors that Quaithe is Dany from the future. That theory never made sense to me.

 

I think the mask is more a Quaithe thing than a general shadowbinder thing. Mel is also a shadowbinder from Asshai, after all. Her eyes are visible so if there were anything unusual about the color, I think it should already have been noted. If all you could see of a person's face were their eyes, you'd look at them, wouldn't you? Quaithe as future Dany is one of my favorite crack theories, I'm not sure how many people ever seriously believed it, but it is still being tossed out the with the other crackpot ideas.

Dany claiming that the blood of the dragon doesn't cry makes me think she doesn't know much about her family.

There was a similar line in Arya I when she told herself direwolves don't cry as Yoren was beating her. In this case, Dany probably couldn't cry on command even if she wanted to, she's a Queen, not a professional film and television actress. Always easier to cover up talent deficiencies by saying you didn't want to do it that way.

 

Is this crown of Dany's ever mentioned again? I can't recall her ever wearing it.

Yeah, I think she's still wearing the same crown in Meereen.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

The main reason Quaithe being Dany from the future doesn't work for me is that she doesn't tell her anything in a straightforward way and you'd think that's what somebody would do if they had the chance to correct some mistakes.    

 

I think Mel is wearing a mask of sorts by using the glamor. 

[benteen]

I remember that Jorah wanted to go to Asshai.  Something GRRM teased but something that doesn't look like it's going to happen.  Give his penchant for world-building (and reveling in it) I'm surprised. 

 

I was thinking again about the Robb/Edmure issue.  I remember now that when Edmure learned just what Robb's plan was, he was stunned and legitimately upset that he had thwarted it.  Which means Robb didn't tell him just what his plan was before him.  That's a failure on Robb's part although I do believe Edmure defied orders because he was embarrassed that he had been beaten and captured in his first battle.  But Robb has to realize how important the Lord of Riverrun is and pulling off a plan like his should have meant keeping him in the loop as to what he was doing.

[nodorothyparker]

Between all the goofy rituals and offerings Dany makes in the early part of the chapter, more speaking in riddles, and the nonsensical Qarth fashions, there's no escaping that this is written by a high fantasy male author. I was half expecting something to appear under a magical beam of light to offer Dany a side quest.

It's funny that I mostly found Viserys an unrelenting tool in the chapters when he was still alive, but from here on out through DWD my sympathy for him as a character only grows. He was still a tool, but you really start to get the sense of what he must have been up against alone in the world. He was still a child himself with a baby sister to care for while random adults on both sides of the Narrow Sea were trying to move him around like a chess piece and likely making promises that never materialized. It makes it easier to understand how eagerly he went along with Illyrio basically selling Dany to Khal Drago when any objective eye had to realize the Dothraki weren't really a good bargain as an invasion force. Dany often mentions how they had to stay head of the "usurper's knives" and I always wonder how much there really was to that. I don't think Robert in the first book really does much beyond keeping tabs on where they are until he hears Dany's pregnant, so how much was real and how much was Viserys' instability and paranoia?

Jorah's got lots to say on what won't work and very little to offer on what he actually thinks she should do.

Edited March 6, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

I don't think Robert in the first book really does much beyond keeping tabs on where they are until he hears Dany's pregnant, so how much was real and how much was Viserys' instability and paranoia? 

 

Jorah's got lots to say on what won't work and very little to offer on what he actually thinks she should do.

According to Renly, who didn't understand why the last Targs shouldn't have been able killed years ago, Jon Arryn was always able to convince Robert not to assassinate them and that's why they survived. I also wonder if Viserys just told Dany they were on the run for their lives sometimes when they had to move on because they'd worn out their welcome with a would-be benefactor. No doubt he did think Robert would kill them if given the chance and there probably were always spies.

MTE about Jorah. He seems to just expect Dany to hide out somewhere with him until her dragons grow up, even though neither of them knows how long that would take.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion IX

 

It's time for Myrcella to depart for Dorne and Tyrion is watching as she says goodbye to her brothers. Tommen cries as he says goodbye to his sister and Myrcella does her best to comfort him. Tyrion goes over the orders he's given the Captain and hopes that his niece is going to be safe. He's sent along Ser Arys Oakheart as her sworn shield and a great part of their already diminished fleet is being used to escort Myrcella on the journey.

 

Tyrion worries about Stannis and thinks that this would be the worst time for them to have to deal with his fleet. Tyrion's winch towers are three quarters of the way done and he thinks to himself that he just needs Stannis to give them another fortnight.

 

Myrcella kneels before the High Septon so that she can receive a blessing for her voyage. Tyrion thinks about how the High Septon is even more pompous and long winded than Pycelle and wants the man to get on with it already. Once the High Septon is finished, Tyrion promises the captain of Rob's Hammer that he'll be knighted provided that Myrcella makes it to her destination safely.

 

As Tyrion is leaving the ship he can feel a bunch of people giving him resentful looks. Bronn escorts him back to where Cersei and her sons are and Cersei does her best to ignore her brother. Tyrion doesn't care and thinks about how he knows about Cersei's secret meetings with the Kettleblack brothers. Lancel has kept Tyrion well informed and has told him that Cersei plans on using the Kettleblacks to buy her force of sellswords. What Cersei doesn't know is that the Kettleblacks are already on Tyrion's payroll.

 

The ships are leaving and Myrcella is smiling and waving from the deck. Prince Tommen is still crying and Joffrey is annoyed with his brother's display of emotion. He tells Tommen that princes aren't supposed to cry. Sansa mentions how Prince Aemon cried the day Princess Naerys wed his brother Aegon. She also mentions the twins Ser Arryk and Erryk dying with tears on their cheeks after they'd both mortally wounded the other. Joffrey tells Sansa to be quiet before he has Ser Meryn give her a mortal wound. Tyrion looks over at Cersei and sees that she's missed Joffrey being nasty to both Tommen and Sansa as usual. He wonders if Cersei is really unable to see what Joffrey is.

 

The fleet escorting Myrcella is well out into the bay when Cersei indicates that it's time to go. As the royal family and all of their retainers are heading back through the crowds, Tyrion looks at the resentment on the faces of the common people and feels uneasy. There's mostly hostile silence from the ragged looking crowd and it couldn't be more obvious that these people are hungry.

 

One woman is holding her dead baby and forces her way through the crowd so that she can get to Joffrey. She holds the dead baby up and for a moment Tyrion wonders if Joffrey will ride the woman down. Sansa whispers something to Joffrey, so he decides to throw a silver stag at the woman. It ends up bouncing off of the dead baby, rolls into the crowd, and at least a dozen men end up fighting over it.

 

The woman with the dead baby still hasn't said anything, moved, or even done so much as blink. When Cersei tells Joffrey that there's nothing they can do for her, the woman snaps and starts shouting at Cersei. She says that she's the "Kingslayer's whore" and repeatedly calls her a brotherfucker. Somebody throws dung at Joffrey and it gets all over Sansa too.

 

Joffrey is beyond livid and immediately offers a hundred golden dragons to whoever gives up the man who threw the dung. He tells Sandor to go after the guy but Tyrion yells at Sandor to leave the man saying that he's likely long gone. Sansa also pleads with Joffrey to let it go.

 

The situation is becoming more and more chaotic and the gold cloaks are struggling to keep the crowds back. Insults are being hurled at Cersei, Joffrey, and Tyrion and occasionally there are people shouting for things like 'justice' or one of the other kings. Somebody starts chanting for bread and suddenly that's all the crowd seems to care about.

 

Tyrion yells to Cersei that they have to ride back to the castle. The crowds are throwing stones and rotten food and they're doing their best to get their hands on as many members of the royal party as they can.

 

By the time Tyrion and the others have reached the castle, they've lost several members of their group including Lollys Stokeworth, Aron Santagar, and the High Septon. Lord Gyles says that he saw the High Septon's litter being overturned and then the crowd set upon him.

 

When Joffrey starts babbling about how he's going to have the heads of all of those traitors, Tyrion goes over to him and slaps him so hard that he knocks the crown off of his nephew's head. He shoves Joffrey to the ground and tells him what a spoiled fool he is.

 

Tyrion asks how many of their party are still out there and Lady Tanda takes the opportunity to ask if someone will go back for Lollys. Tyrek Lannister and Ser Preston Greenfield are also among the missing.

 

Tyrion suddenly realizes that Sansa isn't there and asks Mandon Moore where she is since he was supposed to be her sworn shield. Moore claims that his first thoughts were of protecting Joffrey and Cersei defends Moore saying this was the right thing to do. Cersei then orders Meryn and Boros to go find Sansa. Lady Tanda asks them to bring back Lollys too but the two knights ignore her.

 

Boros is uneasy about going back out into the madness and says that their white cloaks will only enrage the mob even more. Tyrion is thinking about Jaime and thinks that if they've lost Sansa then Jaime is as good as dead. He tells Boros that he'd better find Sansa or he'll have Shagga split his ugly head wide open. Boros thinks Tyrion has a lot of nerve calling him ugly and raises his sword so that Bronn feels compelled to shove Tyrion out of the way. Cersei shouts at them to stop and tells Boros that if he doesn't do as he's told they'll find somebody who will.

 

Joffrey suddenly notices Sansa being brought through the gates by the Hound. The Hound's cloak is torn and stained, and Sansa is bleeding from a deep gash on her scalp. Maester Frenken goes to attend to Sansa and the Hound gives a few more details about what happened. Aron Santagar is definitely dead and he has no idea what's happened to Lollys.

 

Someone shouts to the room that Flea Bottom is on fire, so Tyrion tells Bronn to take as many men as he needs to handle the situation. Tyrion is worried about the fire reaching the wildfire and tells Bronn that they absolutely cannot let the fire reach the Guildhall of the Alchemists. Tyrion commands for the Hound to accompany Bronn and for a moment, Tyrion thinks that he sees fear in Clegane's eyes. The Hound ultimately agrees to go but says that he's only going because he wants to find his horse.

 

Tyrion tells the three remaining knights of the Kingsguard that each of them are to escort a herald who is to tell the people to go back into their homes. Any many who is found on the streets after the curfew will be killed. Meryn tells Tyrion that their place is beside the king, so Cersei snaps at Meryn that his place is where Tyrion says it is and reminds him that disobedience is treason.

 

Boros and Meryn look at each other for a moment and Boros asks if they should wear their white cloaks. Cersei tells them that they can go naked for all she cares. She says it might remind the mob that they're actually men.

 

Tyrion gives Shagga the task of protecting Shae and asks him to tell Shae that he'll come to see her as soon as he is able.

 

The lives of nine gold cloaks were lost in addition to the lives of the High Septon, Ser Preston, and Ser Aron. Lollys was found wandering around naked after having been gang raped behind a shop. No one has bothered to count how many of the mob have died.

 

Tyrion makes it clear that he wants Tygett found. He remembers how kind Tygett's father always used to be to him and thinks how Tygett is only a boy. Jacelyn Bywater says that they'll find Tyrek but proceeds to tell Tyrion that he can't make any promises about holding the city. He doesn't trust half of the men he currently has and if it comes to battle, he doesn't think that they're going to hold. Tyrion admits that he didn't expect them to and says he knows that all will be lost if their walls are breached.

 

"My men are largely drawn from the smallfolk. They walk the same streets, drink in the same winesinks, spoon down their bowls of brown in the same pot-shops. Your eunuch must have told you, there is small love for the Lannisters in King's Landing. Many still remember how your lord father sacked the city, when Aerys opened the gates to him. They whisper that the gods are punishing us for the sins of your House - for your brother's murder of King Aerys, for the butchery of Rhaegar's children, for the execution of Eddard Stark and the savagery of Joffrey's justice. Some talk openly of how much better things were when Robert was king, and hint that times would be better again with Stannis on the throne. In pot-shops and winesinks and brothels, you hear these things - and in the barracks and guardhalls as well, I fear."

 

Tyrion asks Jacelyn if he's saying that common people hate his family, and Jacelyn confirms that they're hated and that they will be turned on if the opportunity happens to present itself. Tyrion wonders if he's included in the hate and Jacelyn is straightforward and tells him that he's the most hated of the Lannisters as far as these people are concerned.

 

Tyrion is stung by this and points out that he wasn't the one telling the people to eat their dead the way that Joffrey was. Jacelyn says that people give Joffrey a pass because he's still a boy. Cersei and Varys might not be liked by the common people but they were also here for years when times were better under King Robert. Jacelyn says that Tyrion is basically the new guy in town who brought in sellswords and savages who do whatever they want. The people think that he sent Janos Slynt to the Wall because Slynt was too honest for Tyrion's liking; they think Tyrion threw 'gentle' Grand Maester Pycelle in a black cell because Pycelle dared to speak against Tyrion. There are even those who think that Tyrion means to claim the Iron Throne for himself.

 

Tyrion's heard enough and says they both have work to do, so Jacelyn leaves and Tyrion thinks about how his father might have been right for despising him for all of these years if this is the best he can do. He wonders what it says about him if his closest advisers are a eunuch and a sellsword, and his lady is a whore.

 

Bronn returns to the Tower of the Hand and Varys arrives shortly after that. Bronn helps himself to Tyrion's dinner and Tyrion is annoyed and tells Bronn that he didn't give him permission to have his dinner. Bronn says it looked like Tyrion was finished and points out that it's a sin to waste food these days. He asks Tyrion if he has any wine. Tyrion tells Bronn that he goes too far. Bronn replies that Tyrion doesn't go far enough and asks Tyrion if he's ever thought about how much easier if would be if Tommen were on the throne instead of Joffrey.

 

Tyrion gets a chill when he realizes what Bronn is hinting at. He thinks about how Joffrey is Jaime's child in addition to being Cersei's and doesn't think that he'd be able to do that to his own blood. He tells Bronn that he could have him killed for saying that. Bronn only laughs at this. Varys says that quarreling won't serve them and tells both men to take heart. Tyrion sarcastically asks whose heart he should take.

[nodorothyparker]

I also wonder if Viserys just told Dany they were on the run for their lives sometimes when they had to move on because they'd worn out their welcome with a would-be benefactor. No doubt he did think Robert would kill them if given the chance and there probably were always spies.

 

I have no trouble believing both of these things could have been true.  I can't imagine Viserys, winning personality that he was, would have been a fun house guest to have for years on end when the one big benefit of having such a house guest (major influence and inroads with the new king) failed to materialize year after year. We also know the truth Dany generally got from Viserys about a lot of things tended toward his own particular take on it.

[nodorothyparker]

The riot was much smaller scale on the show with everyone on foot there, which I remember thinking at the time looked odd.  I also noticed on this reread that while TV Tyrion limits himself to slapping Joffrey once while saying all the right things about Joffrey being an idiot and the people starving blah blah blah, here he's just completely unhinged, first slapping and then shoving and then kicking him before he's pulled off.  All while thinking how very good it feels.  Tyrion comes off less clueless than Joffrey and Cersei about public sentiment toward them all because at least he's noticing the crowd, but only by degrees as evidenced by his astonishment at Bywater telling him he's hated most of all.

 

Kings Landing really has gone to shit rather quickly considering Robert hasn't even been dead all that long at this point in the story.  Even in the wake of the riot, Tyrion isn't at all interested in doing anything to try to alleviate what caused it in the first place.  He's fine with letting Flea Bottom burn.  He's thinking about finding his missing cousin and trying to slip away to see Shae.  His interest in the city only goes as far as maintaining control.

 

Boros and Meryn again come off fairly useless and cowardly as far as Kingsguard go.   We get our first quick namecheck of the Kettleblacks. 

 

And thus begins one of my most least favorite repeated phrases of the series:  raped half a hundred times, half a hundred men, etc.  Poor Lollys.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, that's why I didn't even mention the number of times. It's like, who would even have that information? It's just a number that got thrown out there for whatever reason.

 

Cersei did get a pretty good line about how Boros and Meryn can ride through the city naked for all she cares. I loved the way Boros and Meryn looked at each other and asked if they had to wear their cloaks--no way do I think they wore them.  It was kind of nice to see her backing up Tyrion here. She didn't even go off on him for slapping Joffrey and pushing him. She comforted Joffrey but she didn't lash out at Tyrion the way that I thought she would.

 

Thankfully Sansa doesn't have as much of a scare here. Still, it has to be pretty horrific to see someone getting their arm chopped off in addition to whatever other horrors she witnessed. I guess it's a walk in the park in comparison to all of the torture going on at Harrenhal though.

 

Bronn's comments are chilling but he's only voicing what a bunch of people are secretly already thinking. The thought has certainly occurred to Sansa.

 

Cersei going out in disguise sounds like when she'd go out to meet Jaime.

 

Interesting that Pycelle has a good reputation with the smallfolk.

 

Littlefinger gets lucky all of the time. Of course he misses out on the riot. 

 

Tyrion made it pretty clear to me (again) that he just doesn't care that much about the common people of King's Landing. He doesn't care if Flea Bottom burns, there's no discussion whatsoever about getting more food to the people. He's going to continue eating (and wasting) capon, Cersei's still going to have ridiculously elaborate dinners--Pycelle may have laid a spare table for show, but the end result was the same. He was one of the few prominent people in King's Landing who took the right attitude about how people were starving and all Tyrion did was complain inwardly about how he couldn't have any honey that day for his breakfast. Just that small sacrifice was something that Tyrion felt was too much.

 

Meanwhile, the Stokeworths are a big part of the reason that the Lannisters in King's Landing have anything to eat and they can't make it a priority to find a daughter of the main House who's keeping them from starving? If I were Lady Tanda, there'd be next to nothing keeping me loyal to Team Lannister at this point.

 

I'm curious if they're even putting anything aside for the harvest? Have we heard any mentions of this that I'm forgetting about? (I mean based on where we are in the reread.) I know that we got harvest talk in more than one Winterfell chapter but I can't recall anything about southron people harvesting. It's strange too that there aren't other castles with greenhouses since long winters are a known thing. You'd think people would try to copy what works.

[Lady S.]

And thus begins one of my most least favorite repeated phrases of the series:  raped half a hundred times, half a hundred men, etc.  Poor Lollys.

Ugh, this is seriously the worst plot point, and then it just goes on with the pregnancy, as if the gang rape weren't bad enough. GRRM should have chosen one or the other, either one rapist and an unwanted pregnancy or a gangrape. And if you'll notice, Lollys was found behind a tanner's shop, as in the name Bronn gives her son, Tyrion Tanner. Bronn names the baby for the horrible day he was conceived and then Martin adds another gang rape reference in the ADwD appendix, where the baby is listed as her newborn son, TYRION TANNER, of the hundred fathers. Why not just have the mob murder her after raping her? That would have been way less tasteless.

Cersei did get a pretty good line about how Boros and Meryn can ride through the city naked for all she cares. I loved the way Boros and Meryn looked at each other and asked if they had to wear their cloaks--no way do I think they wore them.  It was kind of nice to see her backing up Tyrion here. She didn't even go off on him for slapping Joffrey and pushing him. She comforted Joffrey but she didn't lash out at Tyrion the way that I thought she would.

Yes! The Cersei/Tyrion unity here has always struck me. They are tied through the threat to their lives and both have reason to want Sansa back to prevent Jaime being killed, but it's more than being on the same page. Cersei chooses to reenforce Tyrion's authority instead of giving her own orders to Boros and Meryn and saying they should go just because the Queen Regent said so. She comforts Joffrey but shows no reaction toward Tyrion for wailing on him, nor does she ever bring it up later when she kidnaps Alayaya and accuses Tyrion of wanting to see Joffrey killed. It's brought up at Tyrion's trial, but not by Cersei and she doesn't use it to convince Jaime of how much Tyrion hated Joffrey either.

Bronn's comments are chilling but he's only voicing what a bunch of people are secretly already thinking. The thought has certainly occurred to Sansa.

At least Sansa has the sense not to say it outloud and especially not suggest it in front of Varys, who does testify about it at Tyrion's trial.

Interesting that Pycelle has a good reputation with the smallfolk.

And crazy that Janos Slynt the baby killer does.

I can sympathize with Tyrion regarding his bitterness at being the most hated member of his family. It's unfair in many different ways to think he's the worst one, but how much reason do the smallfolk really have to not hate him at all? Do they even have a way of knowing he's the one responsible for what he has done for them? If he was willing/able to do more to feed and/or protect them, I doubt they'd care only about his looks. But he's been raised to believe that being "a grotesque" is something most people can't ever get past and the Tyrell brand of good PR is just entirely alien to the Lannister way of life.

[Avaleigh]

Wow, I didn't even realize that about Tyrion Tanner being listed in the appendix. Agreed, tasteless.

 

I'd just assumed that he was Tyrion Waters. Did Bronn choose Tanner so that he won't be considered a bastard?