The Official Re-Read of Book 1: A Game Of Thrones

[netlyon2]

Wow, a re-read thread!  I haven't visited the forum much since I stopped watching the show, but I love discussing the books.  Since I'm so late to the party, I'll confine my comments to the last two chapters.

BRAN
Maybe I'm hard-hearted, but I've never felt much for Bran.  To me, he's like the kid who continues to play in traffic, despite repeatedly being told not to; it's sad when he gets hit by a car, but not surprising and, honestly, something he brought on himself.  Sure, Jaime had a direct role in Bran's fate, but (IMO) even if the twins never noticed him, Bran was going to end up falling to the ground because (1) his hobby is climbing rooftops (with a side of eavesdropping) and

(2) Bloodraven already had his eye on Bran (hey, no pun intended) and set things in motion for the kid to lose his legs.  It was always going to happen, even if it hadn't happened that day.

In terms of parenting, I agree with @Lady S. in that Ned does force Catelyn into the Bad Cop role.  It's sweet that he's a big ol' softie, but seriously, dude, your kid is climbing on the rooftops of your castle.  This isn't some small thing that it's silly for a parent to worry about.  It's also much bigger than allowing Arya

to keep Needle (although Ned's wishy-washiness on that was setting Arya up for a world of hurt if he was just going to try and force her back into the gender box later).

  I love Ned as much as the next ASOIAF fan, but he definitely had his weak points.

 

Coming back to Jaime’s Big Sin, I’ve always found the amount of hatred directed at him interesting, especially since

Martin explicitly has both of Bran’s parents consider and accept the reasons why the twins would try to kill Bran.  Both Ned and Catelyn felt glad that they weren’t put in such a situation.

  It’s definitely a horrible thing that he did, but I wouldn’t say that he is irredeemable because of it.  Many and more characters do far worse.

 

I also don’t think that Jaime didn’t feel anything about what he did.  It’s easy to forget due to the shock of his action and the way that the show does the scene, but he’s described as saying “The things I do for love” with loathing.  I do think that, as a soldier, Jaime is able to compartmentalize, block off emotions, and avoid second-guessing himself.  Not only is navel-gazing not really part of Jamie’s personality, it’s also something that can get you killed on a battlefield. 

It’s not until he loses that right hand—and thus, the solider aspect of his identity—that he begins to self-reflect and allow those feelings to come to the surface.

 

Lastly, regarding the Jaime-Cersei sexual dynamic, I don’t think that they have a specific rape-fantasy kink.  As I read it, both in this instance and

their reunion by Joffrey’s corpse

, Cersei’s protests were about the possibility of getting caught, not about not wanting Jaime. 

We also have multiple glimpses, through both their POV’s, into a wide variety of encounters, initiated by both of them.  There are lots of reasons to find their relationship unhealthy, but I don’t think that a rape fantasy is one of them.

[Lady S.]

I also don’t think that Jaime didn’t feel anything about what he did.  It’s easy to forget due to the shock of his action and the way that the show does the scene, but he’s described as saying “The things I do for love” with loathing.  I do think that, as a soldier, Jaime is able to compartmentalize, block off emotions, and avoid second-guessing himself.  Not only is navel-gazing not really part of Jamie’s personality, it’s also something that can get you killed on a battlefield. 

It’s not until he loses that right hand—and thus, the solider aspect of his identity—that he begins to self-reflect and allow those feelings to come to the surface.

But Jaime

spends most of his one-handed time navel-gazing (and two-handed he's obsessed with his Kingslaying past and youthful fantasies of Cersei, not living entirely moment-to-moment), and the focus is much more on Cersei being a whore than on his sins done for love. He shudders at the memory of chasing after Arya to do gods know what to her at Cersei's bidding, but he's far more upset about Cersei's unfaithfulness.

I'd hope Ned would choose his own children if it was their lives or another innocent's, but he wouldn't accept it as he would a death on a battlefield. I see Jaime's love for Cersei and Tyrion as serious compartmentalization (something Ned is also superb at with Cat/Jon and Lyanna/Jon/Robert), but his ability to get over cruelty lickety-split is just plain being out of touch with his conscience, to a degree not typical of every action-first character. He felt bad but not nearly enough to qualify as a good person. Which is fine by me, I like all three Lannister siblings as characters without there is a "Good Lannister". I don't forgive him for Bran because he doesn't even want absolution, but I also don't really hold it against him either, if that makes any sense.

 

I don't think GRRM knowingly meant for Jaime/Cersei to be rape-fantasy kink, but it does come off that way.

 

Holmbo, for the what-if of Tyrion not going to the Wall, it also means Bran doesn't get his special saddle and probably doesn't meet Osha, which could mean bad news if Theon's takeover at Winterfell does go the same way. But if Cat's helping Bran rule Winterfell, there's a good chance that it wouldn't go the same way, with her family-first war blinders I doubt she'd care as much about an attack on Torrhen's Square, and think she'd would want to keep more guards at Winterfell. Or maybe she'd still leave Winterfell later when Robb did since she does choose joining Robb at Moat Cailin over riding home to Bran and Rickon.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

I hadn't thought much about it before but I have to agree that Catelyn seems to be forced into the bad cop parent role. Certainly more so than Ned anyway. OTOH we do have Ned sort of disapproving of Rickon showing fear at the age of three so I guess it isn't always one sided. 

 

As for what might have happened if Tyrion hadn't gone to the Wall---I can't help but think that Tyrion would have at least cautioned Cersei with regard to the idiocy of dismissing Barristan from the Kingsguard. I don't know that she would have listened but I at least think that Tyrion would have put it to her the way Tywin did when she realized that she'd fucked up when she didn't consider that Selmy might join up with Stannis or Dany. 

 

Jon II is coming up this evening!

[Avaleigh]

JON II

 

It's the night before Jon is due to leave for the Wall and it seems like he doesn't really want go. He wants to think that this won't be the last time he's in Winterfell.

 

It's time for Jon to make his goodbyes so he and Ghost go to Bran's room where he has remained ever since his fall. Catelyn has been by Bran's side every moment for some two weeks not even leaving for meals or sleep. Since Catelyn has been with Bran day and night, Jon has kept himself from visiting Bran because he knows his presence would upset Lady Stark. Now though it's time for Jon to leave so he wants to say goodbye to his brother.

 

He lingers for a moment in the doorway and is almost too nervous to speak. A window in the room is open and a wolf, presumably Bran's, can be heard howling outside below.

 

Catelyn finally notices that Jon is in the room and coldly asks him what he's doing there. Jon tells her that he's come to say goodbye to Bran and Catelyn immediately tells him that he's done so and now he can turn around and leave. Jon thinks Lady Stark looks as though she has aged twenty years in the two weeks since Bran's fall.

 

Jon almost wants to turn around and run but he asks Catelyn to please let him have a moment because he knows that he might never see Bran again. Catelyn again tells Jon to leave and insists that "[they]" don't want Jon there. Jon thinks back to a time when he would have fled at these words or even cried but now he's just pissed and over it. Jon tells Catelyn that Bran is his brother and the implication is that he should be well within his rights to say farewell to a family member that he's known since the day the boy was born.

 

Catelyn asks Jon if she should call the guards to make Jon leave but Jon seems to know that she's bluffing and tells her she can call them but it's not going to stop him from say goodbye. Jon walks over to Bran's other side and sees a boy who looks completely unlike what Bran used to look like. Jon is horrified to see the shape that Bran's broken body is in and seems amazed that he's still breathing.

 

Apologizing for not coming to visit sooner, Jon can't help but cry and asks Bran not to die. He tells him that everyone is waiting for him to wake up especially his siblings. Bran's direwolf is still heard howling below.

 

Jon tells Bran that he has to leave for the Wall now and gets choked up thinking about how excited Bran had been earlier at the prospect of embarking on a journey. Jon wipes away his tears and kisses Bran goodbye.

 

Lady Stark suddenly feels compelled to speak and admits that she'd wanted Bran to stay at Winterfell with her. Jon seems uneasy that Catelyn is even addressing him but it's almost like she's just voicing her thoughts aloud and Jon just happens to be there to hear them. Catelyn admits that she'd prayed to the gods for Bran to stay and seems to believe that her prayers were indeed answered only in the worst way possible.

 

Unsure of how to respond to what Catelyn is saying, after an awkward silence, he tells her that what happened to Bran wasn't her fault. Catelyn totally bristles at this comment and bitingly tells Jon that she doesn't need any absolution from a bastard like him.

 

At this point Jon is ready to go, so he squeezes Bran's hand and tells him goodbye. As he goes to leave Catelyn calls Jon's name and even though Jon is instantly wary and instinctively feels that he should just ignore her and keep on going, he's so surprised that she would call him by name when she's never done so before that he pauses to hear what she's going to say. Catelyn then tells Jon "It should have been you" before turning back around to Bran and completely breaking down in sobs. Jon has never seen Catelyn cry before and almost seems more shocked by that than by Catelyn's parting words.

 

Jon heads down to the courtyard where it's loud and chaotic with everyone trying to get ready to set off for King's Landing. Robb is in the middle of everything, giving commands, and Jon notes that Robb seems to have grown up a lot in the short time since Bran's fall. Grey Wind is at Robb's side.

 

Robb tells Jon that their Uncle Benjen has been looking for him and says that Benjen wanted to leave an hour ago. Jon admits that it's harder to leave Winterfell than he thought it would be. Robb wants to know if Jon was able to see Bran and insists to Jon that he knows that Bran won't die. Jon wryly comments that Starks are hard to kill and Robb can immediately sense that something is wrong with Jon. He wants to know if his mother was okay with him and Jon graciously lies and tells Robb that Catelyn was very kind to him. Robb seems relieved and doesn't question Jon further. He comments that the next time he sees Jon that Jon will be all in black. Jon smiles and replies that black was always his color. Robb pulls Jon in for a hug and they embrace each other "fiercely". Jon tells Robb to take care of Bran.

 

Robb says to Jon that Benjen is waiting for him in the stables but Jon tells him that he has one last farewell to make so Robb basically says that he'll cover for Jon if Benjen comes back to ask where Jon is.

 

Jon goes to pick up a package from the armory and then goes to visit Arya in her room. Arya is busy packing and her direwolf Nymeria is helping her by fetching various items from all over the room. Arya is excited to see Jon and runs to give him a hug saying that she was worried that he'd already gone. Arya tells Jon that she wasn't allowed out to say goodbye and Jon wonders what it is that Arya has done this time. Arya complains that she didn't do anything and basically says that Septa Mordane has been up her ass for not packing her clothes like a proper southron lady.

 

Jon tells Arya that it's actually a good thing that Septa Mordane is forcing her to repack her things because he has something else for her to pack. Arya seems happy at the prospect of a present from Jon and tells Nymeria to guard the door just in case someone tries to barge in while she's getting her secret present. As Arya turns back towards Jon she sees that he's presenting her with her very own sword.

 

Arya's eyes grow wide with excitement and Jon immediately cautions her that it isn't a toy and that the blade is very sharp. Arya comments on how skinny the blade is and Jon tells her it's just like her and that these are the sorts of blades that are used by swordsman in the Free Cities. Jon jokes around with Arya for a bit and tells her that the first lesson is to "stick them with the pointy end". Arya gives Jon a whap on the arm for that comment and they laugh for a moment before Arya begins to worry about what Septa Mordane will say about her having a sword.

 

Jon tells Arya that Septa Mordane doesn't have to know and Arya then wonders who she'll practice with. Jon tells her that King's Landing is huge and that she should be able to find a practice partner eventually. Until then she can watch other men practice to get a general idea. Jon and Arya both agree that she shouldn't tell Sansa and actually say this in unison. It's a sweet moment and afterwards Jon tells Arya that he'll miss her. He again messes up her hair and Arya tells him that she wishes that he were coming with them all.

“Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?” He was feeling better now. He was not going to let himself be sad. “I better go. I’ll spend my first year on the Wall emptying chamber pots if I keep Uncle Ben waiting any longer.”

 

Arya ran to him for a last hug. “Put down the sword first,” Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses.

 

When he turned back at the door, she was holding it again, trying it for balance. “I almost forgot,” he told her. “All the best swords have names.”

 

“Like Ice,” she said. She looked at the blade in her hand. “Does this have a name? Oh, tell me.”

 

“Can’t you guess?” Jon teased. “Your very favorite thing.”

 

Arya seemed puzzled at first. Then it came to her. She was that quick. They said it together:

“Needle!”

 

The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north.

 

Edited April 16, 2015 by Avaleigh

[polyhymnia]

It still makes me completely suck in my breath the way Catelyn hates Jon.  Not just wishing that it was Jon instead of Bran but hating him enough to actually tell it to him.  That coupled with the unbearably sweet parting between both Robb and Jon and of course Arya and Jon makes this one of the most poignant chapters in the series, especially on re-read.  Catelyn is often portrayed as such a good mother (with some poor, poor decision-making skills) that it is easy to forget that she bears this child of her husband's such ill will.  I've thought it interesting that they put Ned in the room in that scene for the series because I feel that book Ned probably doesn't realize the depth of the hatred, being rather blind to nuance.

[Lady S.]

The fact that this is the first time Catelyn's ever addressed Jon by name feels even worse than what she says to him after she does. You don't sit at a family table with someone for almost every meal over almost 15 years and never call him by name without it being deliberate. I don't think there was any chance of her loving him maternally because telling someone "this is my lovechild, he's living here whether you like it or not and you are not allowed to ever question me about him" is not the way to form a functional blended family. It's just not. (I see her refusal to accept Jon's very presence as passive-aggressiveness toward Ned, it reminds me of Sansa's thoughts on her wedding day when refusing to kneel about no one caring about her feelings. Except obviously much worse since Jon is an innocent. There's not one hint of Ned trying to soothe the wound to her pride and get her to come around. She'd never openly defy the husband she was sworn to obey, but I do think there's some subconscious bitterness to always doing her duty. She operates entirely within the confines of being a noble lady but doesn't take comfort in courtesy the way Sansa does. Here's the one situation which society doesn't expect her to handle with grace, so she doesn't. At all.)  But she could and should have tried to hide her resentment from Jon and treat him as she would any other member of the Winterfell household, whose names I'm sure she used when talking to them. I don't think she frequently called him bastard before this, but she didn't have to when calling him nothing is still bad enough. 

 

Jon displays some remarkable maturity and empathy through the whole encounter, though. I think he understands she's out of her mind with grief since he is so shocked and seems to think she's acting like a different person. The fact that Robb seems to believe Jon's lie tells this kind of outburst is not a common occurrence. I think normally she's cold and emotionally abusive instead of lashing out with open verbal/physical abuse, I see that as more Cersei's and Lysa's style. 

 

 

It still makes me completely suck in my breath the way Catelyn hates Jon.  Not just wishing that it was Jon instead of Bran but hating him enough to actually tell it to him.  That coupled with the unbearably sweet parting between both Robb and Jon and of course Arya and Jon makes this one of the most poignant chapters in the series, especially on re-read.  Catelyn is often portrayed as such a good mother (with some poor, poor decision-making skills) that it is easy to forget that she bears this child of her husband's such ill will.  I've thought it interesting that they put Ned in the room in that scene for the series because I feel that book Ned probably doesn't realize the depth of the hatred, being rather blind to nuance.

The scene in the show is also much milder than this, and I expect book Ned witnessed that kind of casual coldness every day. If Robb is aware of it, his grown-ass father should be, if for no other reason than Jon's welfare is his responsibility. I see Ned as more willfully dense than ignorant, which is even more evident with his dealings with Robert and Cersei. He cannot grasp Cersei's ungratefulness for his mercy and wonders why she has not fled even after Robert is on his deathbed, but she could not have made her position more clear in their confrontation. And his thought in Ned I that Robert loved Lyanna more than he did is a weird contrast with his flashbacks of her frightened deathbed pleas. That's some A+ compartmentalization. (And ftr, I only see R+L=J reasons for why he couldn't bring Jon to court with him. There have been bastards in the Kingsguard, in the small council, and on the Iron Throne as Hand of the King. I don't see why Robert's bastards never coming to visit should mean no others are welcome, Cersei may not want him fraternizing too closely with her and the royal brats but she'd have no reason to care beyond that.) 

 

Catelyn displays a similar tendency to see what she wants to see with her foster brother so I guess she and Ned really are a good match. 

 

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle"? Arya and Jon are going to meet up again, I didn't read through dozens of repetitive memories of him messing up her hair for nothing. And don't tell Sansa? Foreshadowing of her later tattling to Cersei?

[Avaleigh]

The fact that this is the first time Catelyn's ever addressed Jon by name feels even worse than what she says to him after she does. You don't sit at a family table with someone for almost every meal over almost 15 years and never call him by name without it being deliberate. I don't think there was any chance of her loving him maternally because telling someone "this is my lovechild, he's living here whether you like it or not and you are not allowed to ever question me about him" is not the way to form a functional blended family. It's just not. (I see her refusal to accept Jon's very presence as passive-aggressiveness toward Ned, it reminds me of Sansa's thoughts on her wedding day when refusing to kneel about no one caring about her feelings. Except obviously much worse since Jon is an innocent. There's not one hint of Ned trying to soothe the wound to her pride and get her to come around. She'd never openly defy the husband she was sworn to obey, but I do think there's some subconscious bitterness to always doing her duty. She operates entirely within the confines of being a noble lady but doesn't take comfort in courtesy the way Sansa does. Here's the one situation which society doesn't expect her to handle with grace, so she doesn't. At all.)  But she could and should have tried to hide her resentment from Jon and treat him as she would any other member of the Winterfell household, whose names I'm sure she used when talking to them. I don't think she frequently called him bastard before this, but she didn't have to when calling him nothing is still bad enough. 

 

Jon displays some remarkable maturity and empathy through the whole encounter, though. I think he understands she's out of her mind with grief since he is so shocked and seems to think she's acting like a different person. The fact that Robb seems to believe Jon's lie tells this kind of outburst is not a common occurrence. I think normally she's cold and emotionally abusive instead of lashing out with open verbal/physical abuse, I see that as more Cersei's and Lysa's style. 

 

 

The scene in the show is also much milder than this, and I expect book Ned witnessed that kind of casual coldness every day. If Robb is aware of it, his grown-ass father should be, if for no other reason than Jon's welfare is his responsibility. I see Ned as more willfully dense than ignorant, which is even more evident with his dealings with Robert and Cersei. He cannot grasp Cersei's ungratefulness for his mercy and wonders why she has not fled even after Robert is on his deathbed, but she could not have made her position more clear in their confrontation. And his thought in Ned I that Robert loved Lyanna more than he did is a weird contrast with his flashbacks of her frightened deathbed pleas. That's some A+ compartmentalization. (And ftr, I only see R+L=J reasons for why he couldn't bring Jon to court with him. There have been bastards in the Kingsguard, in the small council, and on the Iron Throne as Hand of the King. I don't see why Robert's bastards never coming to visit should mean no others are welcome, Cersei may not want him fraternizing too closely with her and the royal brats but she'd have no reason to care beyond that.) 

 

Catelyn displays a similar tendency to see what she wants to see with her foster brother so I guess she and Ned really are a good match. 

 

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle"? Arya and Jon are going to meet up again, I didn't read through dozens of repetitive memories of him messing up her hair for nothing. And don't tell Sansa? Foreshadowing of her later tattling to Cersei?

I disagree that Robb believing Jon's lie was an indication that Catelyn hasn't been awful to Jon in the past. The very fact that Jon seemed worried indicated to me that he expected Catelyn to be the way she always is with Jon but hoped that for Bran sake that his mother was able to put her bitterness aside so that Jon would be able to say goodbye. 

 

I hope that Jon and Arya meet up again but think it's just as likely that they'll only meet again via their direwolves. 

 

I agree that Catelyn's treatment is a dig at Ned and I think it sucks that she's willing to punish Jon rather than Ned since Jon is the innocent one in the situation. I can only give Catelyn so much sympathy when it comes to the 'these were the times' argument since it's supposed to be inspired by medieval attitudes. Saying that she wished that it had been him is just going above and beyond and makes it difficult for me to sympathize with her over this particular situation. (Not Bran's fall but with the Jon as Ned's bastard issue.)

 

I totally agree about it being odd that Ned couldn't have brought Jon to King's Landing just to see how it goes. Either that or have him fostered somewhere to be a squire. You'd think that there would be men willing to take in the bastard son of the Hand of the King. Littlfinger is making sure that Sansa is treated right while she's Alayne Stone. I'm sure it would have been possible.

 

 

It still makes me completely suck in my breath the way Catelyn hates Jon.  Not just wishing that it was Jon instead of Bran but hating him enough to actually tell it to him.  That coupled with the unbearably sweet parting between both Robb and Jon and of course Arya and Jon makes this one of the most poignant chapters in the series, especially on re-read.  Catelyn is often portrayed as such a good mother (with some poor, poor decision-making skills) that it is easy to forget that she bears this child of her husband's such ill will.  I've thought it interesting that they put Ned in the room in that scene for the series because I feel that book Ned probably doesn't realize the depth of the hatred, being rather blind to nuance.

I was shocked to find myself tearing up twice while I was doing the recap. When Jon reflects on how much Bran was looking forward to the journey and then he asks him not to die--it just came over me. The second time was at the very end with Jon reflecting on Arya's laughter warming him during the ride north. Something about that was so sweet to me because you know it's a memory that he's probably gone back to so many times during everything he's been through. Their bond is still as strong as ever even though they haven't seen each other in years and knowing

what his reaction will be later when he thinks he hears news of Arya

only moved me more.

 

I think I've only teared up a couple of times during the series as a whole so it'll be interesting to see how many times I feel moved to tears during this reread because I can already tell it's going to be a lot more.

[Holmbo]

Good sum up of the whole Cat, Ned, Jon relationship Lady S. I think also the whole thing is affected (assuming J=R+L) by Ned lying about Jon's parentage. If Jon actually was Ned's bastard I'd expect everything to work much better. Now Ned doesn't really feel any guilt I think but rather feels like a victim of circumstances. So we have three victims walking around wanting to take out their blame on someone.

 

I agree that the description of Cat's earlier treatment of Jon does her more diservice than what happens in the present. Also because even though she's an ashole here (worse than Clegane's earlier asholery) she also seems kinda crazy. "We don't want you here." Speaking for her comatose son like that. She's quiet unbalanced.

 

 

Favorite thing:

Once that would have sent him running. Once it might even have made him cry. Now it only made him angry. He would be a sworn brother of the Night's Watch soon and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark.

GRRM does a lot of interesting things with identity in his books, for example how roles affect people. Since the society he created is very strict with where people belong the roles are often something that is forced upon the characters. Jon's decision to join the Night's Watch is one of the few examples of a character choosing a role. Sure he didn't have much option but it's still a choice he makes and we see in this chapter how positive it affects him to see himself as a member of this group.

 

Prediction: We see two quotes in this chapter which seems very foreshadowy:

 

Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle.

 

You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.

These two combined seems to suggest Arya comming to the North at some point and dying there.

 

What if: Hmm I'm getting kinda tired of doing this one. Maybe I should just replace it with favorite identity aspect of each chapter.
For this one I had some thoughts about what would happen if Jon didn't give the blade to Arya. I feel the biggest change would be that both Stark girls would still have their wolfs. I'm not sure how that would play out in kingslanding. Probably they'd be forced to lock them up in a kennel. I can't imagine them being allowed to walk around with them in the castle.
 

[Lady S.]

I didn't mean she wasn't awful to him before, the fact that he thinks of her as if she used to terrify him as a child is very troubling. But she must not be this brand of awful on a regular basis, not wanting him in the room with her is what Jon expected but everything she starts confiding about her prayer for Bran is what I think is unique. I wonder if they've ever actually been alone together like this before, since they're only alone together here since Bran is in a coma. I imagine Jon spent his childhood trying to avoid her and that he's been waiting for her to leave Bran's room until he had to accept she wasn't going to. Most of their contact before that probably involved non-comatose witnesses so if she was calling him bastard and saying such nasty things to him in normal circumstances, I don't see how Jon could fool Robb any more than Tyrion could convince Jaime that Tywin was letting up on him.

 

It's interesting that we were just talking about wishing another child dead in place of your own when it came to Jaime. ;) Here it's more personal but I have little doubt she'd sacrifice any other child, if a Mirri Maaz Dur-type offered to do a blood magic ritual to heal Bran. This is a woman whose last living act is holding an innocent hostage for the life of her child, "a son for a son". I consider her state-of-mind at Bran's bedside to be as unstable as she gets before the Red Wedding. But that's more in Cat III. It's the fact that she actually expresses this wish to Jon that I find inexcusable, the thought itself is wrong but not unforgivable. If I hadn't watched the show first, I probably would have less sympathy for Catelyn too, by the time she's arguing with Robb about legitimizing Jon, I can't help but think, jeez, woman, let it go already. 

 

I think of the "these were the times" argument when it comes to explaining Ned's forcing her to live with his bastard with no say in the matter and no information and how she feels compelled to obey. That passage and the fact that Ned actually scared her feels very jarring to my modern child-of-a-blended-family sensibilities. If she feels powerless against Ned on this particular issue, and feels she must try to love the father of her children as family duty, it's no wonder she can't resolve her feelings with the person she actually has the problem with. Ned could have sent Jon to any trusted Northern family even if only till he returned from the South, and Robb could have ridden out to visit whenever he wanted. There was no good reason it had to be Cat or joining the Night's Watch at only 14/15. That's on Ned. (And Cat's knowledge of the Night's Watch doesn't seem much better than Jon's, if she thinks he'd just be Benjen's son instead up there.)

 

And doesn't Ned owe it to Jon to try to talk things over more with Catelyn so they could live together more easily? If a stepparent is mistreating a child, I think the real parent is falling down on the job if they're standing by and not doing anything. She wasn't hiding her feelings from Ned, not completely, she very much wanted him aware that her position had never changed. I understand why he wants to take R+L=J to his grave, fine, he could still tell her Jon's mother died in childbirth just like her own and that's the reason Ned felt responsible (which would be true), that he dislikes delegating his duties to others whether it be beheadings or rearing small children (probably true), that he had no intention of legitimizing Jon as a spare for Robb (no reason to think that's not true), and that Cat is the woman he loves and he's not keeping Jon around because he still carries a torch for Jon's mother (partly true, he's hung up on Lyanna but I think we can assume he loved her only as a sister and not in the Targ/Lannister twins version of sibling love). I'm not saying she'd be completely reasonable, but I think she'd find it a lot harder to rationalize her cruelty if there was an open dialogue, and Ned is the one who closed off any such dialogue. Apparently Ned just prayed his wife would forgive him and left it at that. Why is Ned shocked that Jon wants to join the Night's Watch? Has he never talked with the poor boy about his mother or about his future? Living in Winterfell indefinitely until Cat loosens up or dies, with Ned not actively trying to help the former along is an unsustainable plan. (Actually, for someone who thinks a 4yo should grow up and a 7yo should get used to seeing men killed, Ned doesn't appear to have given much thought to what he wants for his kids when they do grow up. That's fine enough for Robb and the younger boys but Jon needs a place to belong.) Why are Jon/Benjen and Jon/Robb addressing his awkward position but not Jon/Ned? I'm glad the show at least gave us the Jon/Ned goodbye and unfulfilled promise of his mother, their only real book convo that I remember is about the direwolf pups. At least tv Ned encouraged him to think of himself as a Stark in that scene on the kingsroad.

 

Sorry, some of this is really more the previous Cat chapter from earlier in thread, meant in no way to defend this ugly incident.

ETA:

Good sum up of the whole Cat, Ned, Jon relationship Lady S. I think also the whole thing is affected (assuming J=R+L) by Ned lying about Jon's parentage. If Jon actually was Ned's bastard I'd expect everything to work much better. Now Ned doesn't really feel any guilt I think but rather feels like a victim of circumstances. So we have three victims walking around wanting to take out their blame on someone.

 

 

What if: Hmm I'm getting kinda tired of doing this one. Maybe I should just replace it with favorite identity aspect of each chapter.

For this one I had some thoughts about what would happen if Jon didn't give the blade to Arya. I feel the biggest change would be that both Stark girls would still have their wolfs. I'm not sure how that would play out in kingslanding. Probably they'd be forced to lock them up in a kennel. I can't imagine them being allowed to walk around with them in the castle.

That's an interesting point about Ned feeling like a victim of circumstance too, and probably handling it better if Jon actually was his bastard. One of the reasons I believe in R+L=J is because I really do think Ned wasn't as good of a father to Jon as he could have been otherwise. Regardless of the Catelyn mess, Jon's been wondering about his mother his whole life and feeling Ned must be ashamed of her because of his absolute refusal to talk about her. Certainly his stepmother's coldness only worsens his insecurities, but even kids in loving adoptive families want to know where they come from and can feel abandoned by their birth parents. 

 

If Arya didn't have Needle, she'd be stuck in King's Landing after Ned's arrest with no Syrio to defend her or cat-catching practice that led her to the secret passage through the dragon skull room and out of the castle. I can't see the direwolves having freedom of the castle either, do they even have that much at Winterfell yet? So Nymeria probably can't help her there. When talking about the girls' survival, people always leave out that Sansa did nearly kill herself by trying to take Joffrey with her on that parapet, before Sandor stopped her.  If Arya was in that scene, she could have lunged at Joff when Sandor was distracted and they'd both go splat.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

That's a good point about Ned. I also can't think of any other conversation between him and Jon than about the wolves. Not even one of them remembering one. If we go in for it I bet we could really do a bashing of Ned in our reread.

[Avaleigh]

DAENERYS II

 

In the tradition of the Dothraki Khal Drogo and Daenerys Targaryen are married beneath the open sky. Khal Drogo's entire khalasar has come to Pentos for the occasion making the Pentoshi people feel rather anxious as there are some 40,000 warriors in addition to their women and children.

 

Viserys wants to know how quickly Khal Drogo will deliver him his crown and Magister Illyrio tells Viserys that Drogo plans to first travel to Vaes Dothrak in order to present Daenerys to the doshkhaleen. If the omens are in favor of war then afterwards Drogo will see if he is going to invade Westeros as Viserys would have him do. Viserys doesn't want to hear anything about Dothraki omens and bluntly asks how long he's going to have to wait. Illyrio seems like he doesn't really care one way or the other and tells Viserys that he's waited his entire life to be King so what's a few more months or years?

 

Ser Jorah Mormont has officially pledged his sword to the service of Viserys and counsels Viserys that it's probably not a good idea to rush Drogo saying that not only are the Dothraki true to their word but that the Khal might take offense in being rushed or berated. Viserys doesn't seem to care that Jorah is trying to help him and tells him that he'll have his tongue out, making it plain that he's not going to beg Khal Drogo for shit even though he's in the position of being a beggar.

 

Dany dreams of dragons the night before her wedding. In the dream Viserys is physically abusing her and repeatedly telling her "you woke the dragon!" Her thighs are covered in blood, she's surrounded by fire, and Viserys vanishes to be replaced with a dragon who gives her a stare that frightens her more than she thinks she's ever been frightened in life--until she wakes on the morning of her wedding and realizes how afraid she is for what's to come.

 

The ceremony goes from dawn until dusk with a seemingly endless round of people fighting and feasting. It all seems strange and alien to both Dany and Viserys. Viserys is particularly annoyed that Dany now appears to outrank him and seems to be furious when this is demonstrated by where they're seated during the feast and when Dany is served before Viserys is. Dany feels very alone and afraid and passes up most of the food that is offered to her anyway.

 

It is soon clear that Dany and Drogo don't have a language in common so that adds to the awkwardness and Dany's feelings of isolation. Viserys and Illyrio are too far away to engage in conversation so she spends her time drinking honeyed wine and thinking about her ancestry.

 

Women are dancing for the entertainment of the Khal and there's apparently a lot of mounting/raping going on which in turn leads to lethal fighting. Dany is embarrassed by the displays but she'd been informed in advance that stuff like this would happen and that the Dothraki have a very different view of sex (and rape) than the people of Westeros especially when it comes to having sex in public. Illyrio also tells her that a Dothraki wedding without at least three deaths is considered to be boring and Dany thinks to herself that her wedding must be blessed by their standards as there are twelve men dead by the time the day is done.

 

As the day goes by Dany becomes more and more anxious for the moment when she'll be handed off to Khal Drogo who still seems to terrify her. She thinks that the Dothraki seem like savages, she's afraid of what will happen if she fails Viserys, and she's most concerned and afraid of having to consummate her marriage with the Khal. She tries to give herself strength with the thought that she is the blood of the dragon.

 

It's gift time for the bride but this only makes Dany think that she's one step closer to having to consummate her marriage with Drogo.

 

Viserys gives Dany three handmaids as a gift and each have an area where they are to specialize with Dany. Irri is going to instruct Dany with riding, Jhiqui is going to help her learn the Dothraki language, and Doreah is to teach Dany in the "womanly arts of love". Then of course because it's Viserys he mentions as an aside that both he and Illyrio have fucked Doreah and can swear to the fact that Doreah knows what she's doing.

 

Ser Jorah apologizes that he isn't able to give Dany something more grand and gives her some books in the Common Tongue that are histories and songs about the Seven Kingdoms. Dany seems genuinely grateful and touched and thanks Jorah sincerely.

 

Dany is next presented with Illyrio's gift and she's shocked when he gives her three wildly expensive dragon eggs from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai.

 

From the bloodriders Dany receives the three traditional weapons of the Dothraki: a bow of dragonbone, an arakh covered in gold, and a whip with a silver handle. Dany has been informed that tradition dictates that she should hand the weapons over to her warrior husband, so Dany gives them the expected line so that the gifts can be presented to Drogo instead, since he is a warrior who is great enough to have the honor of using them.

 

The other Dothraki present Dany with other gifts like jewels and clothes and bottles of scent, and she ultimately gets so much stuff that she doubts whether she'll be able to use it all.

 

When the time comes for Khal Drogo to present her with his gift a hush envelopes the crowd as everyone marvels at the beautiful grey-silver horse that is being given to Dany. Illyrio tells Dany that Drogo has told him he chose the animal for the silver in Dany's hair.

 

Drogo lifts Dany onto her horse and Dany suddenly realizes with a jolt that it's time and that she's going to have to ride with Drogo somewhere so that they can consummate their marriage. Dany is nervous and thinks to herself that she is only a fair rider and worries momentarily that she might fall and disgrace herself. Dany's fears are unfounded however and she immediately takes to riding her silver horse feeling exhilarated from the speed and the way the horse so easily responds to her touch. She asks Illyrio to tell Drogo that he has "given her the wind." When Illyrio tells Drogo what Dany has said it's the first time that Dany sees him smile.

 

Drogo has his own horse brought around and it's time for the pair to set off. Before they leave Viserys digs his fingers into Dany's arm and reminds her that she has to please the Khal if she doesn't want to wake the dragon in Viserys.

 

The fear came back to her then, with her brother’s words. She felt like a child once more, only thirteen and all alone, not ready for what was about to happen to her.

 

Dany and Drogo ride off together so that they can be alone and during the ride Dany keeps telling herself that she's the blood of the dragon.

 

When they get to a grassy place that Drogo thinks is suitable they stop, Drogo dismounts, and then helps Dany down from her horse. Dany begins to cry now that the time for the consummation has come and Drogo dries her tears with his calloused hands. He says the word "no" so Dany thinks that he might know a bit of the Common Tongue but then he says "no" again so it seems that this is the only word in the Common Tongue he knows. Dany seems to feel better though that he knows even one word and is surprised at the unexpected tenderness that is coming from a man that she'd found to be so fearsome.

 

They undress each other and Dany undoes Drogo's crazy long braid. When Dany tries to cover up her naked body with her hands Drogo prevents her from doing it and tells her "no" twice more. She repeats the word "no" back at him and is afraid of what is going to happen next.

 

Drogo takes his time and arouses Dany and when he says the word "no" again only this time in the form of a question, Dany tells him "yes" and moves his hand so that he can put his fingers inside of her.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

This is a tough chapter and I really hate the way rape is such a huge part of the Dothraki culture. It's basically impossible for me to like Drogo or for me to root for he and Dany to be together. (Furthermore, it makes me not want to see them make it to the Seven Kingdoms just so they can wreak more havoc over there.) This chapter also cemented my hatred for Viserys. The level of fear Dany feels throughout the chapter is so intense and if any of the characters could have predicted the dragon factor and how powerful she'll end up becoming I feel like things would have ended up very different. Imagine if Viserys knew that she'd hatch the eggs? No way would he have given her up IMO. 

 

A couple of other what if scenarios into my head. 

 

What if the Martells had reached out to Viserys or Dany earlier?

 

 

What if Illyrio brought FAegon into the picture at this point?

 

What if Viserys had chosen to remain with Illyrio in his manse? 

[Holmbo]

Favorite thing: The way Dany's chapter mirrors Jon a bit because she too is using her identity to gain courage. I'm the blood of the dragon. Though rather than being something she choose it's an identity which has been ascribed to her by others. When we look at her ambition as the series goes on it makes me wonder how much of her personality was shaped by her growing up as "a dragon".

 

Prediction: This is not exactly a prediction but more a theory about Illyrios intentions in this chapter. I don't think he thought the eggs were anything other than fossils. He is very rich and can afford to give her an expensive gift just to show of and a dragon themed gift is suitable for a Targ.

 

What if: I'm putting that under spoiler just cause you did Avaleigh though I don't really think it's needed.

What if the Martells had reached out to Viserys or Dany earlier?
It doesn't really make sense to me that they didn't. It doesn't seem like they had anyone looking after them the way Viserys had to sell their crown jewels and everything. I don't remember exactly what the Martells plan was though so maybe it makes sense to keep the deal a secret I just don't recall why. I'm thinking if they had reached out to them Viserys would have been more than happy to accept their help. They are his mother in laws family and I'm sure he'd much rather expect help from them than Illyrio

 

Some other random reflections:
It doesn't really make sense to with a culture which worships and eats the same animal. You don't do both. Either it's a holy animal which you don't eat, expect maybe in sort of ritual circumstances, or it's your everyday food.

 

Illyrio and Viserys are wiener cousins. Eugh to that whole thing.

 

When reading this chapter I had the changes to the show adaption very much in mind. I was trying to decide which version I feel works best. Of course they are both problematic and it's really hard to imagine exactly how people in such a misogynistic culture would reason. The way I'm thinking is that the book version it's kinda strange that Khal Drogo has such a good understanding of female sexual pleasure when as you said Avaleigh rape seems such a big part of their culture, like how it doesn't even seem to enter their mind that women has any say in it. From all other descriptions of sex in Dothraki culture it seems it's mostly just seen as a way for men to relieve their needs. And indeed that's how it is described for Dany and Drogo in all their other sexual encounters until she tries to take control of the situation. Also I'm not sure I buy that Dany would go from a terrified child into wanting to have sex in such an extremely short time. In the show I think their initial interaction feels more realistic in both their attitudes but on the other hand it seems totally unthinkable that she would ever be able to enjoy sex with him after such a horrible experience.

[Avaleigh]

This is not exactly a prediction but more a theory about Illyrios intentions in this chapter. I don't think he thought the eggs were anything other than fossils. He is very rich and can afford to give her an expensive gift just to show of and a dragon themed gift is suitable for a Targ.

I agree that Illyrio doesn't think that anything is going to come out of giving Dany the dragon eggs. That being said, why wouldn't he

give them/any to FAegon? Even if they were only meant to be decorative that still seems odd to me. Not only that but since Dany hit the jackpot three times you'd think he'd be all about sending Aegon another one or more to see if lightning strikes again. (Oooh, or could this be proof that he knows for sure and certain that Aegon isn't the real deal and knows he shouldn't bother?)

 

"It doesn't really make sense to me that they didn't. It doesn't seem like they had anyone looking after them the way Viserys had to sell their crown jewels and everything. I don't remember exactly what the Martells plan was though so maybe it makes sense to keep the deal a secret I just don't recall why. I'm thinking if they had reached out to them Viserys would have been more than happy to accept their help. They are his mother in laws family and I'm sure he'd much rather expect help from them than Illyrio"

 

Adding to this I would think that

Cautious!Doran would want to test the waters and get a sense of whether or not the Targaryens are even worth putting back into power. Why not send Quentyn way earlier with the proposal to Dany? Arianne would still be free and if Viserys ends up being less than they were hoping for then Doran hasn't put all of his eggs in one basket.

 

Re: my favorite part in the chapter--for me, hands down, it's when Jorah gives Dany some books from the Seven Kingdoms that are written in the Common Tongue. I don't know if Dany is more comfortable speaking the Common Tongue or High Valyrian but my guess is the Common Tongue and I can only imagine how amazing and awesome it would be in a world without the internet, in a world where she doesn't really have access to a library--to have books in your native language and that tell stories about where you come from when you've never even been there (not since babyhood)--I imagine that would feel all kinds of extraordinary and wonderful.

 

It doesn't really make sense to with a culture which worships and eats the same animal. You don't do both. Either it's a holy animal which you don't eat, expect maybe in sort of ritual circumstances, or it's your everyday food.

I almost commented on this in the recap but I'm trying to be as objective as possible (I'm not always successful, I'm sure, and it was super tough to do in this latest chapter!*) so I didn't mention it but yeah, it make little sense IMO. I can see eating them for ceremonial purposes or something like that but as everyday fare I'm not really seeing where that makes a lot of sense unless there are some horses that they just don't ride and even then you'd think that with all of the tributes that they receive that they'd be into all kinds of other food. 

 

From all other descriptions of sex in Dothraki culture it seems it's mostly just seen as a way for men to relieve their needs.

I honestly felt uneasy even typing that the Dothraki have "a different view when it comes to sex" because I wasn't sure if people would be ready to jump all over this sort of comment and point out the examples of rape that are in the chapter and that these aren't examples of "sex". I understand that and I get it, but from the way the chapter is presented it seems that the people who are observing the Dothraki aren't necessarily thinking rape so I wasn't sure what made sense to put and wasn't sure what sort of criticism I was going to be in for from whatever side, I only know that I was anxious as fuck when I was posting because it seems like there are a lot of potentially sensitive issues for people in this chapter. (I totally understand why by the way I'm just saying why I personally felt uneasy.**) 

 

As for Dany suddenly going from cold and fearful to hot and ready--for me personally it doesn't make sense. Having read the little summary that GRRM first sent out where Jon/Arya/Tyrion was supposed to be a thing--I prefer the way GRRM seemed like he was initially intending with Dany basically seeing Drogo as an enemy and *never*, ever forgetting.

I also would have preferred getting a nicer version of a Viserys who died rather than the Joffrey-lite version that we ended up with. I feel like there would have been a lot more emotion and complexity if Vieserys hadn't been so horrible in every way. I was ready for him to go when he went (although admittedly a bit surprised to see him go so soon) so I think his death would have been more powerful had be been written as a less horrible person. I feel like this is something that the show understood a bit better so that even though Viserys was still horrible he was also given bits of humor and sympathy so that while people were fine with his death happening, there was still that factor of uneasiness with Dany's choice, whereas in the books I didn't really give a shit that Viserys died apart from being somewhat shocked that his story was done after less than one book.

 

Regarding the spoiler tags--I'm totally fine with doing away with them altogether for the reread project but my understanding right now is that we've so far agreed to maintain the tags for books beyond AGoT. That's why I put tags for the stuff with regard to the Martells. 

 

*Maybe this is a good time to point out that I've never done this before, I've never recapped anything before so I'm basically trying to summarize the main points in a way that feels natural for me while still basically attempting to be objective in the presentation. I do apologize if I use too much profanity--I do try to contain it to a point but it's so natural for me (as anybody who is familiar with my posts would probably guess) that I feel like it's weird if I dial back too much. When I wrote the first summary I realized there was probably too much of my own opinion, so I'm trying to keep from doing that as I expect it would get to be distracting not to mention annoying.  

 

**Lol, oh wow, now I'm thinking about Jaime and Cersei in the Sept, Tyrion with prostitutes, Ramsay with anyone... Fasten your seat belts, guys!

 

Eddard II will be up tomorrow. Let me know if I'm going too fast. :-) 

[Holmbo]

I think you're doing an excelent job with the recap.

 

 

I honestly felt uneasy even typing that the Dothraki have "a different view when it comes to sex" because I wasn't sure if people would be ready to jump all over this sort of comment and point out the examples of rape that are in the chapter and that these aren't examples of "sex". I understand that and I get it, but from the way the chapter is presented it seems that the people who are observing the Dothraki aren't necessarily thinking rape so I wasn't sure what made sense to put and wasn't sure what sort of criticism I was going to be in for from whatever side, I only know that I was anxious as fuck when I was posting because it seems like there are a lot of potentially sensitive issues for people in this chapter.

 

I was too a bit nervous writing about this stuff not wanting people to feel like I was talking about it too lightly. But I think it's important to analyse the view of the culture in order to be able to draw conclusions about the individuals.

[WearyTraveler]

I second the kudos on the recapping.

 

As for this chapter, I think the only thing I'd add is that it's interesting that Dany dreams of the dragons before she even sees the eggs, and that it's Viserys who attacks her in the dream.  Perhaps in a future book, when she heads back to Mereen with Drogon, it will be Viseryon who attacks her.

 

In any case, is this the first prophetic dream/omen that comes true in the books? Or is that Ned dying by stag (as the direwolf who birthed the Stark puppies)?

[Avaleigh]

EDDARD II

 

It's an hour before dawn when Ned is suddenly woken up so that he can join the King for an impromptu ride where they can discuss some matters of state. Robert is concerned about who might overhear their conversation so he wants to go well away from the camp. They end up riding out miles south from everyone and even the members of the Kingsguard keep their distance so that Ned and Robert can speak privately.

 

Robert bitches for a moment about the absurdly large wheelhouse and comments on how he wishes he could just keep riding and leave everyone behind. Ned says that he believes that Robert actually means it and Robert seems to wish that they could go back to the days when they were young and single. Ned reminds Robert that they aren't the boys they were and they have responsibilities and stuff now and he's basically implying that it's time for Robert to finally grow up.

 

Noticing that Ned is as serious as ever Robert says that Ned has basically always been like this and can't really think of a time where Ned has enjoyed himself with women the way Robert has and continues to do so. Robert then asks Ned about the identity of Jon Snow's mother and Ned grows noticeably cool, responding curtly that her name was Wylla.

 

Robert thinks that this Wylla person must have been quite a woman to get the honorable Ned to cheat on Catelyn and at this moment in the conversation Ned seems like he's starting to get angry. He tells Robert that if he loves him he'll drop it now and talks about how he has dishonored the gods, himself, and Catelyn. Robert tries to get Ned to cut himself some slack pointing out that Ned barely knew Catelyn when the encounter with Wylla would have happened but Ned counters that Catelyn was his wife and carrying his child at that point.

 

Robert says that Ned is too hard on himself and jokes with him about how his sigil should be a hedgehog because Ned is so damned prickly. Ned points out some of the barrows of the First Men and Robert seems a little scared concerned about the idea that they've ridden on to a graveyard. He also takes a moment to grumble about how cold it is in the North.

 

Lord Varys has sent Robert word from his spy Ser Jorah Mormont who is anxious to get a royal pardon for his crime of selling people into slavery. Ned is grossed out that Jorah has become a spy but Robert is more concerned with what the spy has to report.

 

The marriage of Dany and Drogo is Jorah's latest news to the King's court and Robert wants to know what Ned thinks. Ned doesn't see what the big deal is but Robert feels like this is a legitimate concern and thinks he needs to send in an assassin to deal with the problem of the existence of the remaining Targaryens once and for all.

 

Ned isn't surprised and thinks back to how they'd argued with each other when Tywin Lannister had the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon Targaryen as well as their mother's presented to Robert as a gesture of fealty. Ned thinks that this was straight up murder, the murder of a mother and her children, but Robert disagrees and thinks that all is fair in war. The friendship of the two men might not even have been repaired were it not for death of Lyanna Stark bringing them close to each other once again.

 

Trying to remain calm, Ned tells Robert that Daenerys Targaryen is little more than a child and that Robert isn't the sort of man who is on the level of Tywin Lannister. Robert can't bring himself to feel comfortable with the idea of Daenerys having children who could be a threat to his own dynasty one day but Ned continues to give his opinion that killing Daenerys wouldn't be right.

 

Robert is starting to get loud and upset and rants for awhile about the unspeakable things the Targaryens did back when they were in power. He makes it clear that he wants to exterminate House Targaryen and only wishes he could have done it sooner but it seems that the late Jon Arryn also counseled Robert against killing the remaining two Targaryens. Ned reminds Robert that Jon was a good and wise man and that he was probably giving him good advice.

 

Robert wants to know if Jon Arryn's response would be the same if he had the knowledge that Khal Drogo's khalasar is some one hundred thousand strong. Ned says that it's immaterial whether the Khal's khalasar is a hundred thousand people or a million as long as the Dothraki remain on the other side of the Narrow Sea. He then reminds Robert that the Dothraki fear the open sea and have no ships anyway so he thinks Robert is worrying over nothing.

 

Thinking about the Rebellion, Robert remembers how many houses fought for House Targaryen and thinks that these houses would turn on him if Viserys Targaryen invaded Westeros with a Dothraki army. He thinks that the Dothraki could get ships in the Free Cities if they really had a mind to do so. Ned says that they'll throw them back into the sea if they do try to invade and this ends up bringing them back to their disagreement over who should be named the current Warden of the East.

 

The King says that he won't name little Robert Arryn as Warden of the East so Ned suggests Stannis Baratheon thinking that the King couldn't possibly have a problem with giving one of his own brothers the honor of the position. Robert seems uncomfortable now and Ned correctly deduces that this is because he has already promised the position to Jaime Lannister. Ned agrees that Jaime is a strong and capable man but feels unsettled with the idea of the Lannisters holding both the East and the West.

 

Ned flat out asks Robert if he thinks that he can trust Jaime the Kingslayer and Robert basically says that except for that One Thing he doesn't have any reason to not trust Jaime. He then adds that *somebody* needed to kill the Mad King and that if Jaime hadn't done it then Ned or Robert would have had to have done it. Ned seems like he would have been fine with it being one of them since they weren't sworn members of the Kingsguard. He goes on to talk about how the Lannisters took the city of King's Landing by treachery but Robert still doesn't really see what the problem is. Ned says that there was no honor in the conquest and it's clear that he's still troubled by all of this even though it's been some fourteen years.

 

Robert starts talking about Lyanna again and Ned is trying to remain calm and basically through gritted teeth tells Robert that he won and he avenged Lyanna at the Trident. Ned's mind again flashes back to Lyanna whispering "Promise me, Ned."

 

Robert feels like winning was a hollow victory and asks what good a crown is when the gods treat men and royals alike anyway.

 

“I cannot answer for the gods, Your Grace . . . only for what I found when I rode into the throne room that day,” Ned said. “Aerys was dead on the floor, drowned in his own blood. His dragon skulls stared down from the walls. Lannister’s men were everywhere. Jaime wore the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor. I can see him still. Even his sword was gilded. He was seated on the Iron Throne, high above his knights, wearing a helm fashioned in the shape of a lion’s head. How he glittered!”

 

The King complains that he knows about this already but Ned keeps going on about the day he found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne with a bloody sword in his lap. When Ned comes into the throne room on his horse Jaime doesn't get up at first but stares at Ned from upon the throne instead. A moment between them lingers in the air and Jaime finally laughs and rises saying that he was only keeping the throne warm for Robert. He also adds that Jaime mentioned that it wasn't very comfortable anyway. Robert laughs at this and agrees with Jaime about how uncomfortable the Iron Throne is.

 

If the story about seventeen year old Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne fourteen years ago is the best that Ned can do then Robert basically feels like things could be a lot worse. Ned is adamant that Jaime's ass shouldn't have been seated on that throne for a single second but this is just one more area where it's clear that Ned and Robert won't see eye to eye.

 

Tired of all of the serious talk, Robert wants to ride again and takes off before Ned can say anything else. Ned doesn't follow at first and is starting to feel a sense of helplessness. He sees that the job as Hand is going to be even more difficult than he'd anticipated and thinks again that his true place is at Winterfell with Catelyn at his side so that they can be there together for Bran.

Knowing that there's little he can do that won't cause serious problems, Ned chooses to ride after the King.

[Lady S.]

I think the show made the right choice this first time they removed consent from a sex scene, I agree the book's Dany/Drogo made less sense. It doesn't seem like the Dothraki have any concept of female consent or sexual pleasure. It's nice of Drogo to find a horse to match her hair, I guess, he's probably pretty sensitive as far as Dothraki go, but that's not far enough since he's still a Dothraki and they're pretty shitty. I think GRRM just wanted to avoid opening this story with a 13yo raped by a huge warlord over twice her age, but he does sneak in rape in Dany's next chapter. Better just to be upfront and not romanticize any of it imo. 

 

The Martells might rush to Viserys if he crossed, but the Tyrells wouldn't, and I think a lot of the smaller former-royalist Houses have probably truly changed sides too. Aren't the others who are still-Targ loyal likely to be put off by an army of Dothraki? And Stannis as royal admiral could stop them at sea before they ever landed, couldn't he? And then there's the fact that they're not at the point of braving the open water yet, anyway. I have to agree with Ned here, but he's going about it the wrong way by arguing about the honor of killing Dany, when Robert's feelings on "dragonspawn" are crystal clear. Maybe Ned wants to believe Lyanna was wrong about the danger Robert posed to Jon. This is what I mean about Ned wanting to believe people will do what he needs them to, even when deep down he knows better. 

 

Did anyone believe the first time through that Jaime did want the throne? I wonder if it would have been possible to give Jaime a dishonorable discharge from the Kingsguard and just send him back to the Rock instead of the Wall. Knowing what we do about Robert/Cersei/Jaime, he really should not have been allowed to stay. Someone should have at least asked for an explanation of the kingslaying, otherwise it looks like he only turned on Aerys because Tywin just had. I suspect Ned would not have been as judgmental and might have asked if he weren't Tywin's son. I can at least understand that part of Ned's assumption, but sitting on the throne feels like a much less shocking offense to me.

 

ETA: Does Dany being styled Princess of Dragonstone mean she is Viserys's heiress presumptive? 

Edited April 20, 2015 by Lady S.

[clady]

I'm ahead of the reread so the Dany chapter is not fresh in my mind but where does it say the Dothraki women don't consent? I probably just skimmed it but all I got out of it was that their ways were different. As I write this I'm remembering a discription of one guy grabbing a woman and then the other guy wanted her so they fought and then then winner went to the woman and finished. That must be what everyone is referring to right? Dany's age is what bothered me greatly. And I thought it was ridiculous how she suddenly wanted him after some foreplay (I hesitate to call it that) and was like yes. That made me roll my eyes.

[Avaleigh]

I'm ahead of the reread so the Dany chapter is not fresh in my mind but where does it say the Dothraki women don't consent? I probably just skimmed it but all I got out of it was that their ways were different. As I write this I'm remembering a discription of one guy grabbing a woman and then the other guy wanted her so they fought and then then winner went to the woman and finished. That must be what everyone is referring to right? Dany's age is what bothered me greatly. And I thought it was ridiculous how she suddenly wanted him after some foreplay (I hesitate to call it that) and was like yes. That made me roll my eyes.

To me it doesn't sound like these women have much choice but that's just how it comes across to me.

The warriors were watching too. One of them finally stepped into the circle, grabbed a dancer by the arm, pushed her down to the ground, and mounted her right there, as a stallion mounts a mare. Illyrio had told her that might happen. “The Dothraki mate like the animals in their herds. There is no privacy in a khalasar, and they do not understand sin or shame as we do.”

 

Dany looked away from the coupling, frightened when she realized what was happening, but a second warrior stepped forward, and a third, and soon there was no way to avert her eyes. Then two men seized the same woman. She heard a shout, saw a shove, and in the blink of an eye the arakhs were out, long razor-sharp blades, half sword and half scythe. A dance of death began as the warriors circled and slashed, leaping toward each other, whirling the blades around their heads, shrieking insults at each clash. No one made a move to interfere.

 

It ended as quickly as it began. The arakhs shivered together faster than Dany could follow, one man missed a step, the other swung his blade in a flat arc. Steel bit into flesh just above the Dothraki’s waist, and opened him from backbone to belly button, spilling his entrails into the dust. As the loser died, the winner took hold of the nearest woman—not even the one they had been quarreling over—and had her there and then. Slaves carried off the body, and the dancing resumed.

 

It seems like the strong men just grab and take what they want and consent isn't necessarily factoring into the equation for these people.  

[clady]

Totally it can be seen that way. Just for some reason I didn't come to that conclusion. I was just wondering if I missed it stated outright. Of course it doesn't have to be and I'm fine with everyone else's interpretation. I'm horrible at finding deeper meaning and reading between the lines. And that's why I'm enjoying this reread and having other people's opinions to reflect on.

[Lady S.]

I'm not sure if Dany was meant to really be aroused by Drogo or just not as terrified of him. Viserys had made it very clear he was selling her body to the Dothraki and she needed to make Drogo happy or else. I don't think not consummating the marriage would have occurred to her either, and her earlier "no"s were more fear than intentional defiance, especially since she couldn't even expect Drogo to understand her, so I see it kinda like Sansa trembling on her wedding night with Tyrion. Trying to participate in what she knew was going to happen anyway after she wasn't so frightened may have given Dany some feeling of control, even if it wasn't really consent since she didn't really have the choice not to consummate the marriage. Maybe Evil Santa really did mean for the scene to be sexy, but that's pretty gross to me if he did.

[Holmbo]

I based my impression of Dothraki consent partly on the description of the wedding feast and partly on how Drogo treats Dany in following chapters. We'll get to that i guess.

So Ned.

I find it interesting that both Robert and Ned consider Jaime Tywin's heir at this point. How could he even be warden of the east if he is a kingsguard?

I don't remember my first time impression of Jaime. I don't think I would have thought he wanted the throne. He seems more chaotic evil than anything.

Favorite thing: Promise me Ned. That never gets old.

Prediction: I've got nothing.

What if Viserys did cross the sea with a Dothraki army? Sure he probably wouldn't be able to lead them but some lords would surely join up with him and be his generals. Maybe they would just rave around like some gigantic mountain clan like groups until Aegon showed up?

[Maximum Taco]

ETA: Does Dany being styled Princess of Dragonstone mean she is Viserys's heiress presumptive? 

 

Typically Dragonstone is awarded to the heir apparent during Targaryen rule. So it probably does imply that Dany is next in line for the throne. Just like the heir apparent in the British Monarchy is styled as the Prince of Wales.

 

If Viserys was to have a male child, the child would probably be given the title over Daenerys, so it seems odd that Viserys would shoose to confer the title on Dany. He probably did it just to puff her and by extension himself up a little more.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

TYRION II

 

While the King's party depart from Winterfell to head south back to King's Landing, Tyrion sets off for the Wall up north with his personal Lannister guard of two men, Benjen Stark, Jon Snow, and a couple of others.

 

The North is HUGE and while Tyrion has seen maps he's still unprepared for just how big it really is. They've been on the road for two weeks and it seems to go on and on.

 

They eventually reach an area called the "wolfswood" and they can hear packs of wolves howling at night. Tyrion notes that Ghost doesn't howl in reply to the other wolves and seems unsettled by the presence of the direwolf in general.

 

The party are eventually joined by a member of the Night's Watch named Yoren who is bringing a couple of rapists from the Fingers with him to serve out their days on the Wall. It's starting to dawn on Jon that the men of the Night's Watch aren't going to mostly be made up of honorable men like his uncle Benjen, but mostly criminals and unsavory types who are otherwise facing death if they refuse to serve. Tyrion notices that Jon is starting to get what he's in for in terms of a hard life at the Wall and he feels sorry for him.

 

Tyrion doesn't get off to a great start with Benjen who seems as though he might have issues with the Lannister family. Benjen makes sure that Tyrion knows he isn't going to be pampered at the Wall and that it'll be a tough journey. Tyrion also manages to score a riding fur off of Benjen so Benjen is colder than he was expecting to be and this probably adds to his frustration at having Tyrion be an unexpected part of the trip.

 

They've been traveling for eighteen days and there are no more inns or places for them to stay this far north. Tyrion can't help with the camp set up because of his size so he's gone off to drink and read about dragons.

 

It seems that Tyrion is completely fascinated with dragons and he begins thinking about the dragon skulls that are in King's Landing.

 

From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar. Tyrion had stood between their gaping jaws, wordless and awed. You could have ridden a horse down Vhaghar’s gullet, although you would not have ridden it out again. Meraxes was even bigger. And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben.

Tyrion continues to give more history and he thinks about his ancestor King Loren of the Rock who would ultimately bend the knee to Aegon Targaryen after he, Loren, managed to survive the Field of Fire where Aegon and his sisters unleashed all three of their dragons at once. Thousands of men were burned including the last Gardener King of the Reach.

 

As Tyrion is reading and thinking about all of this Jon Snow suddenly decides to ask Tyrion why Tyrion reads so much. Tyrion takes a long time to get to the point but he pretty much tells Jon that his mind is his weapon and books are the best way to sharpen that weapon.

 

Tyrion finds out that Jon is fourteen and Jon wonders why Tyrion wants to read about dragons since the dragons are gone from the world. Tyrion tells Jon that he used to dream about having a dragon of his own so that he could roast his father or his sister Cersei. He thinks that Jon being a bastard has probably had similar dreams, but Jon denies this.

 

Skeptical of Jon's claims that he doesn't have those sorts of dreams, Tyrion begins to break it down for Jon as far as why he thinks he should be resentful. Jon starts to get angry and tells Tyrion that the Night's Watch is a noble calling. Tyrion tells Jon that he's too smart to believe that and implies that the work at the Wall isn't all that difficult since the creatures that they're supposedly protecting the realm from don't exist anyway. He also says that Jon's going to be spending his time with a bunch of murderers, rapists, and thieves and at this point Jon is close to tears (again) and asks Tyrion to stop it.

 

Tyrion actually feels kind of guilty for making Jon feel bad but just as he's going to pat Jon on the shoulder and maybe even apologize, he's tackled by Ghost and ends up being thrown into the ground. His mouth is full of dirt, he's bleeding a little, and Ghost is showing his teeth at Tyrion in a menacing way.

 

Tyrion needs help getting up and Jon tells him that he'll need to ask nicely if he wants assistance. Tyrion is annoyed but he obliges Jon and then asks him why Ghost attacked him. Jon gives no answer other than to jokingly suggest that Ghost took Tyrion to be a grumpkin which ultimately makes Tyrion burst into laughter.

 

The two end up sharing some wine together while Jon begins to accept what it is that he's signing up for. Tyrion thinks it's good for Jon to face up to the hard truths now and Jon seems to think that Tyrion doesn't have difficulty in facing the hard truth when it comes to his own life.

 

The two walk back to the camp where they're apparently going to be dining on squirrel stew--another hint as to the sort of life that Jon is going to be permanently in for and certainly different fare from the feasts at Winterfell.

 

Benjen was a little worried when Jon and Tyrion were gone for so long and tells Jon that he thought he'd been attacked by the Others. It's a little unclear if Benjen is indicating whether or not he thinks that the Others are a legitimate hazard with this comment. Tyrion tells Benjen that they were held up by grumpkins rather than the Others so Jon and Tyrion have a moment to enjoy a private joke that puzzles Benjen and Yoren.

 

The party all eat in addition to drinking the wine Tyrion has brought until one by one they head off to sleep. Jon is the only one who remains awake because he's drawn the night's first watch. Tyrion can tell that Jon is still thinking about the disappointment he's feeling that the Night's Watch is mostly going to be made up of scumbag criminals and he watches Jon sadly for a moment before heading off to bed.

[Holmbo]

Favorite thing: "He had the stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been she had left little of herself in her son."
Or had she? Dododo.

I'm running out of predictions and what ifs.

I like Tyrion's brutal honesty here though it's the devil on your shoulder type. I wonder if him being obsessed with dragons as a child will be mentioned in the show. It feels like it could become relevant.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Holmbo

[Lady S.]

So Ned.

I find it interesting that both Robert and Ned consider Jaime Tywin's heir at this point. How could he even be warden of the east if he is a kingsguard?

Well, it sounds like a purely military title and if kingsguard can lead armies and be King's Hands, I guess this could be the same kind of appointment. The weird thing is the idea that he could not just be appointed, but also inherit an equivalent title. There's some other early installment weirdness in some of these chapters, isn't there?

 

Here we have Tyrion casually talking about wishing for Tywin and Cersei's deaths, which he also does in his Eyrie "confession" later. Of course Jon is shocked by this, he has a loving father and four loving half-siblings with another half-sister who is, at worst, more distant. And he takes his loyalty to Ned and the Starklings very seriously, kinslaying-by-dragonfire would never occur to him. Tyrion saying in their first meeting that "all dwarfs are bastards in their fathers' eyes" and that his mother died birthing him don't really get across how truly awful Tywin and Cersei are. Maybe Tyrion has internalized his family's abuse so much that he thinks all dwarfs would be treated with the same open contempt in other families, and that outsiders must know he's the lowest of the Lannisters. It's good that someone is being honest with Jon about his life since Ned prefers to avoid the topic, but he does relish the role of brutal truth-teller a bit too much, and we already know he's wrong about the Night's Watch being useless, yet Ned doesn't believe in the Others either so it's still part of the standard Westerosi truth. The Night's Watch basically has to have the option of upward mobility to work because most of its members are peasants forced to be there and otherwise it's more a penal colony than a military force.

 

I like Jon's joke about Ghost mistaking Tyrion for a grumkin, it's not particularly funny, but I feel a sense of humor was lacking in tv Jon for the first couple years. The word grumkin makes me think of gremlins, but no idea what snarks could be. 

 

I think this is my favorite line in this chapter:

By now Stark was no doubt regretting his chivalrous impulse. Perhaps he had learned a lesson. The Lannisters never declined, graciously or otherwise. The Lannisters took what was offered.

 

[Holmbo]

There's some other early installment weirdness in some of these chapters, isn't there?

It certainly would seem so. Perhaps GRRM originally didn't intend for the kingsguard to be a brotherhood but rather just a position not unlike a master at the small council.

[Avaleigh]

As far as the latest chapter, as a reader who believes that Tyrion will turn out to be Jon's uncle, I really like that Tyrion is so uncle-like with Jon in this scene. He gives him advice, he talks to Jon about dragons (part of their shared heritage if certain things turn out to be true), they sort of commiserate over being bastards, they laugh, they share a drink--to me the scene feels even more special if it turns out that there's a family bond. 

 

Tyrion's comment about how his father has never been sure of Tyrion's paternity suggests to me that GRRM was planning this from the beginning. 

 

I like the whole thing with Tyrion accepting Benjen's fur because Benjen is being a jerk to Tyrion before he's even gotten to know him. The Starks have the reputation of being the "good" family in this story (while the Lannisters, Freys, and Boltons are lumped into the "bad" category) and I feel like there are actually all kinds of examples both small and large throughout the books that show them to be prejudiced, narrow minded, arrogant, foolish, etc. I think the Starks are just like any other family in that they have a mixed bag when it comes to people and their personalities, and I appreciate seeing a small moment like this because touches like this add to the balance of the story for me. Benjen has a "good" personality as a character overall but obviously even good characters have flaws (or they should anyway) and I felt like they were on full display in his early treatment of Tyrion. 

[Holmbo]

I never thought about Tyrion being Jon's uncle in regards to the J+A = T. If that turns out to be the case this chapter could almost count as foreshadowing, showing them bonding so quickly and taking about dragons.

Isn't it too neat though with Jon, Dany and Tyrion as the three targs? Maybe there'll be some good twists to it with them having conflicting goals.

[Maximum Taco]

Well, it sounds like a purely military title and if kingsguard can lead armies and be King's Hands, I guess this could be the same kind of appointment. The weird thing is the idea that he could not just be appointed, but also inherit an equivalent title. There's some other early installment weirdness in some of these chapters, isn't there?

 

There's a lot of early installment weirdness in the first book.

 

Not only for facts established about Wardens and Kingsguard but also for things that he planned to happen and then decided wouldn't.

 

We need to remember that George's plans changed somewhere during the writing of ACOK. This was really only supposed to be a trilogy with timeskips betwen books. So a lot of the plans he had needed to be changed.

 

Maybe at some point in that other story Jaime does inherit the Warden of the West title giving him control of half the armies in the realm.

 

Much of the foreshadowing George wrote in AGOT is foreshadowing stuff that may never happen.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[WearyTraveler]

I didn't see this a weird.  I don't remember reading anywhere in the books that members of the Kingsguard couldn't hold public office.  I'd assumed that the Warden titles are, in fact, public office, since they are not necessarily accompanied by land.  My understanding here wasn't that Ned thought Jamie would inherit Casterly Rock, but that if Jamie were to be appointed Warden of the East, while Tywin still held the title of Warden of the West, the King would have put both positions (and a lot of power) in the hands of the Lannister family, as a unit, not in a single Lannister individual.

[Avaleigh]

CATELYN III

 

It's been eight days since Ned and the girls departed from Winterfell and Catelyn has continued to be at Bran's side day and night.

 

Maester Luwin tells Catelyn that it's time to get back to the business of running Winterfell. He thinks she'll want to know how expensive the royal visit was but Catelyn pointedly remarks that she already knows how costly the visit was. She asks him to take away the books that he's brought so they can go over the various figures but Luwin decides that he isn't going to be easily brushed off.

 

Catelyn doesn't see why their steward can't handle replenishing their stores and Maester Luwin reminds her that they don't have a steward since Poole has gone with Ned down to King's Landing to establish the Hand's household down there. Catelyn hardly seems to hear what he is telling her and continues to think about Bran and what she can do to make him even the slightest bit better. She's annoyed that Luwin is bothering her with any of this and when he starts going down the list of positions that need to be filled, Catelyn snaps at him and more or less says that she doesn't give a damn right now about anything that doesn't have to do with getting Bran to open his eyes.

 

Maester Luwin bows his head and seems a little taken aback by Catelyn's grief, but he stays and holds his ground insisting that the appointments need to be made. Suddenly Robb appears from behind them and says that he can be the one to appoint the new steward, captain of the guards, master of horse, etc.

 

When Catelyn realizes that Robb is in the room she only now seems to understand that she'd been shouting and that she was probably a bit out of line with Maester Luwin. She seems embarrassed and she wonders what is happening to her and notes that her head hurts all of the time. She's clearly exhausted from her nonstop tending to and fretting over Bran.

 

Maester Luwin hands Robb a list of names of men who are suitable candidates for the various positions and Robb thinks that the list looks like it has good men on it so they'll go over it all tomorrow. Robb then asks for he and his mother to be left alone so Luwin bows and takes his leave.

 

It appears that all of Ned and Catelyn's children, with the exception of Arya, favor Catelyn and the Tullys with their blue eyes and auburn hair. Catelyn is thinking about this as she's looking at Robb and for the first time she feels like she's seeing a bit of Ned in him too.

 

Robb asks his mother what she's doing and Catelyn wants to know what the hell he thinks she's doing and tells him that she's obviously taking care of his brother Bran.

 

Robb breaks it down for her and tells her that there's only so much she can do to help Bran and that there are other things that need her attention too like her three year old son Rickon. Robb tells Catelyn that Rickon feels abandoned by everyone and spends a lot of time crying and following him around. He also chastises Catelyn for not taking the time to see Ned and the girls off at the gate.

 

Catelyn tries to defend herself and says that she'd already said goodbye to everyone inside of the castle and then watched them depart from the window. She confesses that she doesn't want to part from Bran for a moment because she fears not being there if he does end up dying. She also thinks about how she begged Ned not to go but that he told her that he has no choice.

 

Robb tells Catelyn that not only does Rickon need her but that he, Robb, needs her too. Robb says that he's trying his best but he's still only fourteen and he can't do everything by himself. Catelyn thinks to herself that she wants to go to Robb but feels that she can't move with Bran holding her hand.

 

Bran's direwolf begins to howl and it makes Catelyn tremble momentarily. Robb knows instantly that it's Bran's wolf who is howling and opens the window so that the howling can be better heard. Catelyn doesn't want Bran to get cold but Robb seems to think that it's important for Bran to hear the direwolves "sing". Grey Wind and Shaggydog add their howls to the mix and soon the howling becomes more than Catelyn can stand. She freaks out and tells Robb to make the howling stop even if it means killing the wolves. She then faints or just falls to the floor and Robb ends up lifting her up and carrying her to the bed that she has in Bran's room.

 

He tells Catelyn to rest and reminds her that the wolves would never hurt Bran. She begs him to close the window because the howling is still upsetting her and Robb promises to oblige her but only if she promises him that she'll try to sleep for awhile. As Robb goes to close the window he notices that all of the dogs are barking and thinks this is odd. He then gasps in shock and whispers the word "Fire."

 

After the initial shock, Catelyn's first thought is of Bran and she asks Robb to help her with moving him. Robb seems like he's in a trance and tells her that it's the library tower that's on fire. Catelyn is relieved at least that this means that Bran is safe, at least for the moment, but Robb looks at Catelyn like she's nuts because a fire is still obviously a big problem, so he runs from the room so that he can go and be of assistance.

 

Soon there is lots of shouting about the fire and Catelyn prays to the seven and thinks about all of the books that the Starks have spent centuries collecting.

 

As she turns around after closing the shutters to the windows, Catelyn sees that there is suddenly a man in the room with her.

 

The man clearly wasn't expecting Catelyn's presence and tells her that he didn't think that she or anyone would be in there. The man is small, filthy, and he smells like horse shit. He's holding a dagger in his hand and Catelyn already understands that the man is here for Bran. The man confirms her fears and tells Catelyn that Bran is essentially dead already and that killing him would be a mercy.

 

Catelyn repeatedly tells the guy no and goes to scream for help so he quickly covers her mouth and tries to cut her throat.

 

The two of them are fighting now and Cat again thinks about how the guy smells unbelievably terrible. She's forced to grab the blade of the dagger with her bare hands so blood is all over her fingers but she succeeds in getting the blade away from her throat and manages to then bite down on one of the guy's hands as hard as she can. She tears at his flesh until he lets go and the second she's free she screams so he throws her by her hair down on the ground and tells her again that she wasn't supposed to be there.

 

Suddenly there is a snarl in the background and the next thing Catelyn knows Bran's wolf is attacking the intruder and rips out the man's throat before he has time to even fully utter a scream.

 

The guy's blood sprays all over Catelyn's face but she hardly seems phased. She's looking at Bran's wolf and she thanks it out loud. The wolf licks the blood from her hands and then jumps up to lay down with Bran on his bed. Catelyn breaks into hysterical laughter at the sight of this and it's this scene that Robb, Maester Luwin, and Ser Rodrik walk in on when they burst into Bran's room with a bunch of guards to see what all the screams are about.

 

Catelyn's wounds are attended to by Luwin and after that she's finally put to her bed where she falls asleep almost instantly. When she wakes up she finds out that she's been asleep for four full days. Catelyn resolves to get it together and seems embarrassed by her behavior. She wants to show the northern people how strong a Tully (and a southerner) can be.

 

When Robb comes in to see her she asks about the identity of the intruder. The man doesn't appear to have been a northerner and was only recently seen around the castle during the weeks of the King's stay. Catelyn wants to know how this man was able to hide out for so long in the stables Hallis Mollen basically says that they don't have the manpower that they once had and that it isn't too hard for a person to keep themselves hidden somewhere like the stables if they have a mind to.

 

When Catelyn tells them all that the intruder came to kill Bran everyone seems puzzled and they wonder if Catelyn is sure. Robb wonders why anyone would want to kill Bran and Catelyn tells him that if Robb is going to rule the North one day then he's going to have to start figuring shit out for himself. She asks Robb why anyone would want to kill a sleeping child and after thinking about it for a moment Robb suggests that whoever hired the man was afraid of what Bran would say or do or is somehow afraid of something that Bran knows.

 

Pleased that Robb is learning, Catelyn tells him that they have to do everything in their power to keep Bran safe so this means more guards and no visitors without the consent of Robb or Catelyn. His direwolf will also stay in the room with him for additional protection.

 

Ser Rodrik asks Catelyn if she happened to notice the type of dagger that the wannabe killer used and he tells her that it's an expensive dagger made of Valyrian steel with a dragonbone hilt. It's super expensive and there's no way that some person with money didn't give it to this seemingly lowborn asshole.

 

Seeing that now is the time to bring these chosen few up to speed on her suspicions with regard to Bran's fall and this recent attempted murder, Catelyn asks them to swear their oaths not to speak of what is about to be discussed in her room.

 

Theon, Rodrik, Luwin, and even Robb all swear an oath to Catelyn so she tells them what Lysa said in the letter about thinking that the Lannisters are responsible for Jon Arryn's death. She also says that she thinks Bran was thrown from the tower and points out that Jaime Lannister didn't participate in the hunt that day.

 

Rodrik Cassel doesn't believe it but Theon seems to have Jaime's number and totally thinks he's capable of killing a child. Luwin for his part acknowledges that Bran didn't have any problems with climbing prior to the royal visit.

 

Robb is starting to get pissed and takes out his sword to wave it around saying that he'll kill Jaime Lannister if this turns out to be true. Ser Rodrik totally side eyes Robb here and tells him that he's told him a bunch of times before that it's stupid for a man to take out his sword unless he plans on using it. Feeling slightly chastened, Robb puts his sword away and seems more like a child than he did moments before. Catelyn notes though that Robb is wearing steel and Rodrik admits that he thinks it probably is time.

 

Catelyn thinks the time may come when Winterfell will need all of the swords it can get and Theon takes the opportunity to say here that if that time comes then his House will owe House Stark a great debt.

 

Maester Luwin cautions them all that they can't go accusing the Queen's brother without proof and Rodrik says that the proof is in the dagger since a dagger that fine and expensive won't go unnoticed for long. Catelyn realizes that someone is going to have to go to King's Landing in order to find out the truth about the dagger and what happened and determines that she'll have to go herself.

 

Luwin wonders if it's smart for Catelyn to go and thinks that the Lannisters will look on her arrival with suspicion, while Robb is concerned about Bran being left by his other parent. Catelyn tells Robb that he was right, that there isn't anything that she can do for Bran now, and that she has to think about her other children too. She says that Bran's life is in the hands of the gods and Maester Luwin.

 

As to Maester Luwin's points about her arrival being suspicious to the Lannisters, Catelyn thinks that it will be best and safest to travel with a small party so that she can show up without having the Lannisters know that she's coming. She also accepts Ser Rodrik's offer to travel with her for her protection. Finally, she says that they won't travel on the Kingsroad and will instead follow the White Knife to the coast and White Harbor where they'll be able to hire a ship from there to sail them into King's Landing. If they travel this way then they'll even be able to arrive at the capital before Ned and the rest of the King's party do.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

I love this chapter.

"My son lies here broken and dying, Luwin, and you wish to discuss a new master of horse? Do you think I care what happens in the stables? Do you think it matters to me one whit? I would gladly butcher every horse in Winterfell with my own hands if it would open Bran's eyes, do you understand that? Do you?"

 

Catelyn was shaking. It was the grief, the cold, the howling of the direwolves. Night after night, the howling and the cold wind and the grey empty castle, on and on they went, never changing, and her boy lying there broken, the sweetest of her children, the gentlest, Bran who loved to laugh and climb and dreamt of knighthood, all gone now, she would never hear him laugh again. Sobbing, she pulled her hand free of his and covered her ears against those terrible howls. "Make them stop!" she cried. "I can't stand it, make them stop, make them stop, kill them all if you must, just make them stop!"

She didn't remember falling to the floor, but there she was, and Robb was lifting her, holding her in strong arms. "Don't be afraid, Mother. They would never hurt him." He helped her to her narrow bed in the corner of the sickroom. "Close your eyes," he said gently. "Rest. Maester Luwin tells me you've hardly slept since Bran's fall."

"I can't," she wept. "Gods forgive me, Robb, I can't, what if he dies while I'm asleep, what if he dies, what if he dies . . . " The wolves were still howling. She screamed and held her ears again. "Oh, gods, close the window!"

Catelyn could see the flickering reddish light through the open window now. She sagged with relief. Bran was safe. The library was across the bailey, there was no way the fire would reach them here. "Thank the gods," she whispered.

Robb looked at her as if she'd gone mad.

If it wasn't clear before in Jon II, Cat is really losing her shit here.

 

This is my favorite line in the chapter:

His blood felt like warm rain as it sprayed across her face.

It's one of those lines in her PoV that remind me of Arya.

Is Theon just trying to be a kiss-ass here or does he actually believe everything he's saying? The "my House owes yours a great debt" part is weird to me. I've seen Theon apologists say he's not really a sexist because he's always respectful to Catelyn, but that just shows he does have some good sense and respect for his hosts/captors, since she has power over him that lowborn women don't.

Robb comes off as pretty ridiculous to me with his sword-waving, and I have trouble believing this guy will be a military prodigy in only a few months. Even if he's not used to wearing a real sword, I'd think he'd still know not to treat it like a toy when he's going on 15. Sometimes it feels in these chapters like Robb veers between maturity and immaturity just to have Cat's thoughts reacting to her growing boy.

Anyway, there's a big decision made at the end of this chapter, and there's really no reason why Ser Rodrik can't just go alone and wait for Ned since Cat and Luwin somehow think he's a qualified mystery detective. But I think Catelyn really just needs to be a part of this response after being part of the attack, and feeling ashamed of her state in the days preceding it. It's not really a bad plan unless you know what's coming with Littlefinger and Tyrion, or at least it's not any worse than sending Ned to King's Landing in the first place.

[Maximum Taco]

I didn't see this a weird.  I don't remember reading anywhere in the books that members of the Kingsguard couldn't hold public office.  I'd assumed that the Warden titles are, in fact, public office, since they are not necessarily accompanied by land.  My understanding here wasn't that Ned thought Jamie would inherit Casterly Rock, but that if Jamie were to be appointed Warden of the East, while Tywin still held the title of Warden of the West, the King would have put both positions (and a lot of power) in the hands of the Lannister family, as a unit, not in a single Lannister individual.

 

The Warden titles are traditionally held by the head of the house. This is the argument Ned makes for naming Robert Arryn as Warden of the East. That stands to reason that those inheriting the Lordship would traditionally inherit the Warden title as well.

 

Since Jaime will never succeed to the title of Lord of Casterly Rock, he also logically should never become Warden of the West unless also appointed to it. He would never succeed to it, because he can't succeed to anything. But Ned specifically talks about him succeeding Tywin as Warden of the West which would make him the Warden of the West and the East after Tywin's death. He even specifically says "No man should hold both the East and West"

 

The bigger problem Ned has is of course the one you mentioned, that this would put half the realms armies in the hands of the Lannisters, but he leaves this concern unsaid, instead just voicing the concern about Jaime himself one day being the Warden of both directions.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

I love this chapter.

If it wasn't clear before in Jon II, Cat is really losing her shit here.

 

This is my favorite line in the chapter:

It's one of those lines in her PoV that remind me of Arya.

Is Theon just trying to be a kiss-ass here or does he actually believe everything he's saying? The "my House owes yours a great debt" part is weird to me. I've seen Theon apologists say he's not really a sexist because he's always respectful to Catelyn, but that just shows he does have some good sense and respect for his hosts/captors, since she has power over him that lowborn women don't.

Robb comes off as pretty ridiculous to me with his sword-waving, and I have trouble believing this guy will be a military prodigy in only a few months. Even if he's not used to wearing a real sword, I'd think he'd still know not to treat it like a toy when he's going on 15. Sometimes it feels in these chapters like Robb veers between maturity and immaturity just to have Cat's thoughts reacting to her growing boy.

Anyway, there's a big decision made at the end of this chapter, and there's really no reason why Ser Rodrik can't just go alone and wait for Ned since Cat and Luwin somehow think he's a qualified mystery detective. But I think Catelyn really just needs to be a part of this response after being part of the attack, and feeling ashamed of her state in the days preceding it. It's not really a bad plan unless you know what's coming with Littlefinger and Tyrion, or at least it's not any worse than sending Ned to King's Landing in the first place.

I was surprised to see Robb waving his sword around like that. It reminded me of something that show!Joffrey would do and made me laugh. 

 

I had no idea I was such a fan of Ser Rodrik but between him reminding Robb that a sword isn't a toy and being firm that Joffrey and Robb would only be able to hack at each other with blunted tourney blades and not cowing even when the Hound put pressure on him because of Joffrey's royal status, he's scored a lot of points with me. Makes me feel bad knowing what's to come for him and his family. 

 

I love how much fight there is in Catelyn and I have to admire her for it. That situation could have easily gone a different way but she kept fighting. Screaming, fighting, grabbing the blade with her bare hands, biting the dude--she was totally fierce here and the way she continues to gain strength once she rests and begins to put together a plan. 

 

The big what if for me here is what if Ser Rodrik had gone to King's Landing without Catelyn?

 

I too thought it was odd that Theon makes it seem like he thinks the Greyjoys are indebted to the Starks. I wonder what Balon would have made of that little declaration? 

[Holmbo]

I agree Catelyn is totally crazy in the first part of this chapter. It's fun reading everyone's reactions to her from her pov.

Theon is indeed acting weird. I wonder if he means his family ows them because they let them keep their throne even as they rebelled.

My favorite thing with this chapter is the irony of Cat cursing the wolfs right before summer kills the attacker.

[Avaleigh]

I know it's only fiction but the idea of a library as old as the one in Winterfell catching fire really, really sucks. 

[Maximum Taco]

I too thought it was odd that Theon makes it seem like he thinks the Greyjoys are indebted to the Starks. I wonder what Balon would have made of that little declaration? 

 

Well we need to remember that Theon was brought to Winterfell as a very young boy, and they never treated him badly, in fact they treated him pretty much like an honoured ward, most likely Ned treats Theon the same way Jon Arryn treated Ned himself. Robb treats him the same way he treats his brothers. 

 

Ned even has Theon squire for him, which is typically a great honour, to squire for a great lord. I'm sure many Northern houses would love to have their own sons occupy a place like that in the Stark household. And here Theon is, as a hostage, and he knows he's a hostage, enjoying all these perks. They could just have easily kept him confined to quarters, never let him have weapons, and treated him like an enemy, which his family is by the strictest sense of the word.

 

Theon also grew up according to Northern customs too, so at this point he'd see these things as honours. It's not difficult to see why he'd think he owes the Starks a great debt before he meets his dad again and remembers how the Iron Islanders look at things that aren't earned through the iron price.

 

Balon on the other hand would see them as the Starks "taming" and "keeping" Theon. That he never earned anything, and the mainlanders made him soft.

I know it's only fiction but the idea of a library as old as the one in Winterfell catching fire really, really sucks. 

 

I'm sure George thought the same way when he wrote it.

[Lady S.]

Yeah, but when we get Theon's pov he doesn't see any part of his captivity as an honor even before he turns his cloak.

He has some weird mixed loyalty, but I don't think he and Ned ever had the close surrogate father-son relationship that Ned and Jon Arryn did. Ned has four sons of his own and Jon Arryn had none, there's no sign in Ned's own pov that he has any special regard for Theon. I think his honorable treatment was just basic decency and probably wasn't even unique to House Stark, since taking innocent children hostage per peace agreements was a standard Westerosi practice, and I'd think the idea would be to treat them decently so they'd no longer be enemies. I think the Jon Arryn/Robert/Ned situation was probably the special case, since we don't see any other squires/wards speak of their host the way Ned and Robert do. Treating a noble "guest" badly would be counter-productive to easing the grudge for lasting peace. Which was never possible here because the ironborn are crazy and Euron would have made sure Theon never inherited, but Ned and Robert probably thought having the next Lord of the Iron Islands be mainland-raised would solve things for a while, and with the war over and Balon's knees bent they weren't technically enemies. 

 

 

Theon is indeed acting weird. I wonder if he means his family ows them because they let them keep their throne even as they rebelled.

Wouldn't that have been Robert's decision, though? It'd be in-character for Ned to argue mercy and maybe he offered to take Theon himself, but GRRM forgets to ever tell us those details.  

 

Idk, maybe this is just Theon basing his thoughts/feelings about himself on who he's trying to impress in that moment, he's a pretty changeable guy. He could be exaggerating his gratitude with the debt comment but it's still weird to me without knowing what the debt refers to.  

Edited June 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

I was thinking if no one wanted to take responsibility for keeping Theon, Robert would have had to kill Balon. So by Ned agreeing to this responsibility he did the greyjoys a favor. That's all I can come up with.

[Lady S.]

Ah, yeah, that's about what I was thinking with Ned volunteering to take Theon, but I think that's something that could stand to be made clear. Whatever debt Theon is thinking of, I can't see him really meaning it that much, since the rest of the time he's an arrogant dick unconcerned with owing anybody anything. I'm sure he does see Ned as a father-figure in some ways and he's desperate for recognition by either family, but that's a natural response independent of duty and obligation. 

[SeanC]

The Warden titles are traditionally held by the head of the house. This is the argument Ned makes for naming Robert Arryn as Warden of the East. That stands to reason that those inheriting the Lordship would traditionally inherit the Warden title as well.

 

Since Jaime will never succeed to the title of Lord of Casterly Rock, he also logically should never become Warden of the West unless also appointed to it. He would never succeed to it, because he can't succeed to anything. But Ned specifically talks about him succeeding Tywin as Warden of the West which would make him the Warden of the West and the East after Tywin's death. He even specifically says "No man should hold both the East and West"

 

The bigger problem Ned has is of course the one you mentioned, that this would put half the realms armies in the hands of the Lannisters, but he leaves this concern unsaid, instead just voicing the concern about Jaime himself one day being the Warden of both directions.

There's a lot of fuss made about the warden positions in the early chapters of the book which the rest of the series really doesn't justify, as they really don't see to be that important.

[Maximum Taco]

There's a lot of fuss made about the warden positions in the early chapters of the book which the rest of the series really doesn't justify, as they really don't see to be that important.

 

Well they'd only be important if a United Seven Kingdoms was at war with an outside force.

 

For instance when the Dornish were hostile to Targaryen rule it was very important for the Wardens of the South (the Tyrells) to protect the Kingdoms against Dornish incursion. If Dany were to set sail against a united Westeros it would fall to the Warden of the East to repel such an attack (which is why Robert is so adamant against letting the young Robert Arryn serve in that capacity)

 

But that isn't the case in most of the books, since Dany hasn't entered the battle yet all the wars in the Kingdoms have been civil wars.

[Avaleigh]

SANSA I

 

Sansa and Septa Mordane are having breakfast together and it seems that Ned and the King have gone on another hunt. Septa Mordane tells Sansa that there are still wild aurochs to be found in these lands and Sansa listens to her while she feeds Lady bacon from her hand.

 

Septa Mordane disapproves of the way Sansa feeds her direwolf at the table and says that when it comes to their direwolves that Sansa can be just as stubborn and willful as her sister Arya.

 

Speaking of Arya makes Septa Mordane wonder where she is this morning and Sansa replies that Arya wasn't hungry knowing that Arya has probably eaten breakfast hours ago. Septa Mordane tells Sansa to remind Arya that she has to wear something nice today since they've all been invited to dine with the Queen and Princess Myrcella in the royal wheelhouse.

 

Sansa is already dressed up and hopes that Prince Joffrey will be there in the wheelhouse as well. Sansa already thinks that she's in love with Joffrey and believes that he's everything a prince should be because he's tall, strong, and handsome. She's excited at the prospect of possibly spending some time with her betrothed and is generally feeling happy.

 

The only thing Sansa is concerned about at the moment is the behavior of Arya. She thinks Arya has a knack for ruining things and hopes that she'll be on her best behavior today. She tells Septa Mordane that Arya will probably dress the way she usually does and then asks if she may be excused.

 

The party journeying to King's Landing consists of some four hundred people at this point and Sansa notes that only a third of the party are able to fit in the three story inn that they've currently taken over.

 

Sansa finds Arya with Nymeria on the banks of the Trident and tells her that she'd better wear something pretty if she doesn't want to deal with the wrath of Septa Mordane. Arya has no interest in traveling with the Queen and Princess Myrcella and responds that she's going to wear her riding leathers because she and her new friend Mycah are going to look for Rhaegar's rubies since they're near the spot where Robert killed him.

 

Trying to explain that the princess is expecting them, Sansa reminds Arya that the Queen invited them both but Arya doesn't care and seems to think that traveling with the queen will be boring complaining that the wheelhouse doesn't even have windows.*

 

Clearly feeling annoyed and frustrated with Arya now, Sansa wonders what it is that Arya wants to see out of the windows anyway thinking that they just go past one farm and holdfast after another. Arya tells her there's a lot more to see than that and she'd know if she would ever come with them. Sansa complains that she hates riding because it gets her all dirty and sore.

 

Arya is struggling a bit with her direwolf and tells Nymeria to hold still as she tries to brush the mud from her fur. She tells Sansa that she's so far spotted thirty six flowers that she's never seen before and that Mycah even showed her a lizard lion.

 

Sansa isn't impressed by any of this and thinks back to how unpleasant she found the experience of traveling through the Neck and the muddy swamps. Arya seems to have found the experience fun and even braved wading through the mud and making a mess of herself in order to pick their father some beautiful purple and green flowers. Sansa had hoped that Ned would scold Arya for getting so filthy and for supposedly not acting like a highborn lady but Ned only seems to accept Arya for who she is and with happy laughter takes the gift of flowers from his mud covered daughter. Turns out the purple flowers are called poisonous kisses so Arya ends up with a rash on her arms and ends up rubbing mud all over her skin to dull the itching. Sansa was hoping at least this experience would teach Arya a lesson but Arya just laughs it off and Sansa seems irritated that Arya has no problem going around looking like a common, muddy bog woman. Sansa also notices that Arya's body is covered in bruises but doesn't pay much thought as to how those bruises might have come about.** 

 

Arya is still happily chattering away about all of the things that she's seen on their journey so far and doesn't seem to notice that Sansa is starting to feel a bit annoyed with her. Sansa reminds Arya that their father has told her not leave the column. Arya continues with brushing Nymeria and insists that she hasn't gone far from the column. She says sometimes it's fun to just talk to people and Sansa seemingly rolls her eyes at this because she knows that the type of people Arya likes to talk to are the smallfolk and people of "uncertain" birth. She briefly thinks about Arya's friend Mycah and thinks he's exactly the sort of lowborn type who makes her feel queasy. She even thinks that he smells bad but acknowledges that Arya seems to prefer Mycah's company to hers.

 

Pretty much out of patience with her sister, Sansa tells Arya that she has to come with her today and that the Queen is expecting them both not to mention Septa Mordane. She tries to tempt Arya with talk of lemon cakes and tea, and asks Arya what's so wrong with having a day where they can recline on feather pillows with royalty while they enjoy some sweet treats?

 

Arya responds that she doesn't like the Queen and complains that she wouldn't be allowed to bring Nymeria. Sansa says that the wheelhouse is no place for a wolf anyway and adds that they frighten Myrcella. Arya thinks Myrcella is wimp and is struggling with brushing muddy tangles out of Nymeria's hair. The wolf seems to be done with being brushed however and leaves making Arya throw down her brush in frustration.

 

Sansa smiles and laughs to herself when she thinks back to their kennel master saying that animals take after their owners. Sansa's laughter makes Arya turn around and she says that she's going riding and that's that. Sansa says fine and that it'll be better without her there anyway. Arya reminds her that they won't allow her to bring Lady either and it seems that Sansa has forgotten this. She makes no reply and watches Arya chase after Nymeria down the river.

 

Feeling alone and upset, Sansa wonders why things can't be pretty and nice the way they are in the songs. She also wishes that she had a sister who was sweet and kind like Princess Myrcella.

 

Sansa thinks about how she and Arya couldn't be more different even though they are only two years apart in age. Like Arya, because of Arya's similarity in looks to their half brother Jon, Sansa wondered when she was younger if Arya was a bastard or maybe some mistake had been made and that her real sister was out there somewhere. She even asks their mother Catelyn about it at some point but Catelyn assures Sansa that Arya is her full sister and Sansa admits that there isn't any reason for her mother to lie about it so knows it must be true.

 

At the center of the camp now, Sansa is near the Queen's wheelhouse and sees a crowd gathered there. An honor guard has been sent to escort the King the rest of the way to King's Landing. Sansa sees Barristan Selmy, Renly Baratheon, and Ilyn Payne for the first time. Sansa locks eyes with Ilyn Payne and she's suddenly overcome with fear and even Lady starts to growl. Sansa backs away and bumps right into Sandor Clegane with his burned face. He notices that she's shaking and he asks her if she's frightened by him. Sansa *is* frightened by Clegane but thinks that compared to dead-eyed, pockmarked Ilyn Payne, that Clegane doesn't seem as scary. Still, he's scary enough so Sansa wrenches herself away from him and drops to her knees so that she can hug Lady who is growling and being protective of her.

 

People are staring now and Sansa seems to feel as though she's embarrassing herself and creating a scene. She starts to cry and continues to hold on to Lady. At this point the Queen tells Joffrey to go over to Sansa and when Sansa looks up with the full on fluttering, damsel-in-distress lashes and thinks that "her prince" has arrived.

 

Handsome and courteous, Joffrey gives Sansa his hands and helps her to her feet asking her why she's afraid and telling her that no one will hurt her. He tells the men to put their swords away and tells them that the direwolf is Sansa's pet. He orders Clegane to go away because he seems to be scaring Sansa and Clegane immediately obeys.

 

Sansa is beginning to feel silly for the way she's acted and tells herself that she's a Stark of Winterfell. She tells Joffrey that it wasn't Clegane who scared her but another man; the man she doesn't yet know, Ser Ilyn Payne.

 

Renly and Barristan exchange a look when they realize that it's Ilyn Payne who has caused Sansa such a fright, and Barristan seems to want to try to make Sansa feel better so he tells her that Payne has frightened him at times as well. The Queen comes into the conversation now and tells Barristan that men probably should be afraid of the King's Justice unless they've somehow put the wrong man in the office. Sansa feels she's able to speak again and confirms that she thinks they definitely have the right man for the job. Laughter rings out as Sansa says this Ser Barristan declares that Sansa's comment was well said and appropriate coming from the daughter of Eddard Stark. He tells her that he's happy to know her, he introduces himself, and then he bows.

 

When Sansa hears the name, she immediately knows who he is, and tells him that she's honored to meet the good knight Barristan the Bold who was a councillor to King Aerys II as well as being a current councillor to King Robert Baratheon I. Renly takes the opportunity to mock Barristan calling him Barristan the Old and smilingly tells Sansa that she shouldn't flatter Selmy too much since he's arrogant enough as it is.

 

Renly asks Sansa if she knows who he is as well and Sansa gets it right (Lord of Storm's End, brother to the King, etc.) so Barristan serves Renly with a joke of his own and everyone kind of laughs. Whatever tension there had previously been with Lady growling and Sansa crying seems to have been forgotten until Ilyn Payne decides to go out of his way to stand before Sansa. Lady again begins to growl but this time Sansa silences her and tells Payne that she's sorry if she offended him somehow.

 

Sansa is met with silence from Payne and he looks at her then turns around and walks away. Sansa wonders if she's done something wrong and asks Joffrey what the problem is. Renly laughs that Ilyn Payne hasn't been very talkative the past fourteen years and Joffrey gently tells Sansa that the Mad King Aerys had Ilyn Payne's tongue pulled out with hot pincers.

 

Cersei says that Payne can speak eloquently enough with his sword and speaks of his devotion to the realm. She then turns to Sansa and tells her that she has to meet with Robert's councillors so they'll have to postpone the little tea party that she was about to have with Myrcella. Cersei then tells Sansa to give Arya her apologies and suggests that Joffrey entertain Sansa for the day instead.

 

Sansa is in seventh heaven at the thought of spending an entire day with her prince and immediately thinks of songs that she thinks are romantic. She asks Joffrey what he'd like to do and he suggests they go riding. Despite her earlier declarations as to the drawbacks of riding, Sansa apparently just loves Joffrey's suggestion even when he tells her that it'll be better if they leave Lady in behind. (Apparently in exchange for leaving the Hound behind.) When Joffrey refers to Clegane as his dog, Sansa doesn't know what he's talking about at first. Then when she does figure it out she gets all frustrated with herself and thinks that her prince will never love her if he thinks she's stupid.

 

Sansa briefly wonders aloud if they'll be safe going off on their own but Joffrey seems annoyed that she would have any concerns and reminds her that he's almost "a man grown".*** He shows off his sword to her and tells her that it's called Lion's Tooth.

 

The two set off east along the north bank of the Trident and it seems as though they're going to have a good time.

 

It was a glorious day, a magical day. The air was warm and heavy with the scent of flowers, and the woods here had a gentle beauty that Sansa had never seen in the north. Prince Joffrey’s mount was a blood bay courser, swift as the wind, and he rode it with reckless abandon, so fast that Sansa was hard-pressed to keep up on her mare. It was a day for adventures. They explored the caves by the riverbank, and tracked a shadowcat to its lair, and when they grew hungry, Joffrey found a holdfast by its smoke and told them to fetch food and wine for their prince and his lady. They dined on trout fresh from the river, and Sansa drank more wine than she had ever drunk before.

They decide to head back and Sansa is feeling a little tipsy from all of the wine she's had. Joffrey is talking about how his father Robert defeated Rhaegar Targaryen and mentions how his uncle killed Aerys. He suddenly hears a noise and wonders what the sound is. Sansa is immediately nervous and thinks they should go back but Joffrey wants to see what the noise is and decides to ride towards it. Sansa is still anxious and tells Joffrey that there's obviously someone there but he tells Sansa that she shouldn't worry and that she's safe with him.

 

They come upon Arya and Mycah playing swords with wooden sticks and ride up just in time to see Mycah hit Arya on her knuckles so that she drops her stick and cries out in pain. Joffrey laughs and when Mycah realizes he's there he instantly drops his stick, bows his head, and is uncomfortable. Arya for her part, glares at Joffrey and wants to know what he and Sansa are doing there.

 

Sansa is surprised to see her sister and when Joffrey realizes that Arya is Sansa's sister he decides to go all crown prince tough guy on Mycah and mocks the kid for being the son of a butcher and implies that Mycah likes to pick on little girls. Mycah tries to tell Joffrey that Arya asked him to practice fighting with her but Joffrey doesn't want to hear it and tells Mycah to pick up his stick and face him while Joffrey already has out his sword.

 

Joffrey ends up cutting Mycah on the cheek with Lion's Tooth and tells Mycah that he shouldn't have been hitting his lady's sister. Arya yells at Joffrey to stop it and Sansa tells Arya to stay out of it. Sansa is afraid of what will happen next.

 

Joffrey says that he won't hurt Mycah--much, and at this Arya loses it and attacks Joffrey with her stick whacking him in the back of the head. Once Arya does this Mycah decides that he's out of there and runs for his life. Arya goes in to hit Joffrey again but this time Joffrey is ready for her and he ends up breaking her stick with Lion's Tooth and sending it flying in pieces. The back of Joffrey's head is bloody and he seems to be furious.

 

Sansa screams at both of them to stop it and tells them that they're spoiling everything but neither of them are listening to her. Arya next throws a rock at Joffrey but it hits his horse instead and the horse ends up running off in the direction that Mycah went.

 

Joffrey continues to yell at Arya and go after her with his sword in spite of Sansa's protests and tears. Arya understandably seems genuinely scared that Joffrey might hurt her now and before anybody realizes what's happening Nymeria ends up jumping into the situation so that she can chomp down on Joffrey's sword arm. Lion's Tooth immediately falls from Joffrey's grip and he screams in pain shouting at them to get Nymeria off of him.

 

Arya calls Nymeria off of Joffrey and tries to tell Joffrey that Nymeria didn't hurt him all that much even though Joffrey's shirt is soaked with blood. She then decides to pick up Lion's Tooth and holds it as she stands over Joffrey. Joffrey whimpers and cowers in fear, and just manages to say to Arya that he'll tell his mother on her.

 

Sansa now screams at Arya to leave Joffrey alone so Arya decides to throw Lion's Tooth into the Trident. Arya then goes over to her horse with Nymeria following her.

 

Once they leave Sansa rushes to Joffrey to see if there's anything she can do to help. She's all sympathetic and tells him that she's going to run for help for him. She then reaches to brush back his hair and Joffrey completely changes with her. The courteous prince is gone and has been replaced with a guy who couldn't hold Sansa in greater contempt. He snaps at her to go get help but not to touch him.

[Constantinople]

There's a lot of fuss made about the warden positions in the early chapters of the book which the rest of the series really doesn't justify, as they really don't see to be that important.

It's a resume enhancer.

[Avaleigh]

*Okay, really? I'm sorry but I continue to think that this wheelhouse sounds completely ridiculous. What sort of person, fantasy story or not, buys and builds a massive two story wheelhouse that needs to be pulled by forty something horses and then doesn't bother to include any windows? A vehicle built for traveling without any windows? Lots of windows would make it lighter in all ways. So are we to think that they have covered candles and shit going all the time even though they're bouncing along over rough roads and everything? I feel like this shit wasn't necessarily thought through.

 

**Sansa sees that Arya is covered in mystery bruises and she isn't even a little concerned? I know this isn't an after school special but you'd think Sansa would at least be concerned enough to ask Arya about it or maybe even tell Ned that Arya seems to be getting injured and to maybe find out why.

 

***Talk about an expression that's used as often as much and more/little and less.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Avaleigh

[SilverShadow]

 

**Sansa sees that Arya is covered in mystery bruises and she isn't even a little concerned? I know this isn't an after school special but you'd think Sansa would at least be concerned enough to ask Arya about it or maybe even tell Ned that Arya seems to be getting injured and to maybe find out why.

 

Arya's a rough and tumble kid though. I can imagine her coming home all the time with bruised elbows and skinned knees. And Sansa would know that.

[Avaleigh]

The only reason it stood out to me was because Sansa took special note of them so I took it to mean more bruising than the usual rough and tumble stuff. 

[Lady S.]

I don't think Sansa shows any sisterly concern for Arya in this whole book, it's part of her characterization as the least good Stark. Have you seen the Evil Santa quote where he says he invented Sansa because the Stark siblings got along too well? In my experience sibling conflict is more common than not, so I don't know why he needed Sansa to keep them from being the Brady Bunch, realistic writing should have done that. Right from the start, she's set apart because her first chapter doesn't come until they've left Winterfell. Tyrion gets his intro pov in Winterfell, but all of Sansa's take place in the South.
 
And the chapter starts out with more favoritism from Septa Mordane,

The septa was not appeased. "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya." She scowled.

not only telling Arya to be more like Sansa, but scolding Sansa by comparing her to her sister. Great babysitting technique, Septa.

I do want to note that this is the one issue where Sansa and Arya are marked as the same. Too many people act like Sansa had no Stark traits or wolf loyalty, which just isn't the case.
 

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

This part kind of cracks me up, tbh, with the fact that she only believes her mother because she can't think of a reason Cat would lie. I wonder where she heard Jon's mother was common, since Cat thinks the #1 contender is Ashara, must have been just Winterfell gossip from servants or Northern bannermen. I can see the Karstarks or others wanting to believe noble Ned sired his bastard on a common wench and isn't really any better than them. It seems her distance with her half-brother is just classicism as part of being a proper lady, she doesn't note that he has any traits which make him more undesirable as a brother than Robb, the way Arya displays unacceptable courtesy in addition to looking different. So there's nothing personal between Jon/Sansa, and she has no idea how unfair she is to him because these distinctions are part of being a proper lady, which she's always praised for. I wonder if she's even aware that her mother's coldness to Jon has a personal element, probably not, if her naivete is so blinding in most other ways.

Here, again, we have Arya trying to be friends, suggesting Sansa go riding with her, but they're just not interested in the same things. At this point, I definitely relate more to Arya since I'd much rather go horseback riding than have tea with strangers, stuck all day in a stuffy windowless carriage. As for the wheelhouse itself, this story also has the NW wearing black uniforms in a landscape of snow and ice, the worst possible camouflage, while the KG wear white scale armor, which they couldn't use on the show because the reflection from sunlight would make it blindingly bright, so, yeah, a lot of the overdone fantasy touches have little practical utility, I'd think.

ETA: Other observations:

• I don't think the show has ever mentioned Rhaegar's rubies, but it makes for some nice imagery to me
• dig the ominous foreshadowing with Lady and Ilyn Payne
• Joff being into wine at 12 and trying to get Sansa drunk, his one Robert-like quality? (since Cersei's alcoholism develops more after Robert's death, and Robert is big on getting Ned to drink with him)
• speaking of tv Joff and his sword, I can't watch this scene now without wondering if he was trying to give Mycah "a red smile" the way he wanted to with Stannis in s2
• here starts Arya's trend of repeating evildoers' words back to them when she has a sword on them, with the pause in "she [Nymeria] didn't hurt you...much" mirroring what Joffrey said about hurting Mycah

Edited April 25, 2015 by Lady S.