The Official Re-Read of Book 1: A Game Of Thrones

[nodorothyparker]

Without looking it up, isn't that after Drogo's fallen from his horse and it's become apparent that he's past saving?  He knows what comes next with the lesser khals fighting for power and he knows his life is forfeit because Dany pushed having Mirri tend the wound and Drogo went along with it.

 

I don't know what to make of that line about Cohollo binding his life to Drogo as a baby, given what Jorah tells us about no one being willing to follow or serve a baby.  I can't figure it out either.

[Holmbo]

Couldn't it be that Cohollo was a baby?

[Avaleigh]

He's described as being the oldest of the bloodriders and he is said to have saved Drogo from sellswords when Drogo was still a kid so I get the impression that he's definitely older than Drogo. 

[WearyTraveler]

Maybe Cohollo feels that Danny and Rhaego have been tainted by the Maegi and that Rhaego is no longer Drogo's son?  Maybe he thinks Rhaego is beyond saving?

 

They do seem to despise and fear Maegis a lot.

Edited September 12, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Avaleigh]

Qotho (I think) even equates Dany with being a maegi so I guess that could be it. Dany was never really one of them so maybe that's part of it too. She was always an outsider that they never would have put up with had Drogo not taken an interest. 

 

It's strange that Drogo didn't already have a wife and kids considering that he's in his thirties. I would imagine that the Dothraki marry young like most of the cultures in asoiaf especially a khal. There should have been a throwaway line about how his first wife died or something. 

[Lady S.]

I wondered about what Jorah would do if Rhaego had lived but Dany had died. I can see him thinking that Rhaego could be valuable i

I wonder if the bloodriders would have felt at all bound to Drogo's child? That one guy certainly didn't when he tried to cut Dany's throat but I wonder how that works exactly if they're supposed to be blood of their blood. The guy who tried to cut Dany's throat--wasn't he sworn to Drogo when Drogo was born?

They wouldn't have felt bound to any prospective khal because their lives were supposed to end when their khal's did. Three bloodriders and a baby would be a dereliction of their duty to join Drogo in death. As soon as Drogo fell off his horse, they knew their days were numbered. I don't think Mirri could have saved him at this point even if she had wanted to, her blood magic basically just made him into a meat puppet, not too unlike the wights in the North. I think it likely he actually had died already (and that she'd poisoned him with her previous healing to get him in that position), and she just used a spell to restore movement to his corpse.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

I think it likely he actually had died already (and that she'd poisoned him with her previous healing to get him in that position), and she just used a spell to restore movement to his corpse.

That's an interesting thought. I too find this quite likely. The sense I've gotten is that the abilities in the different religions seems to mostly be based the same magic. There seems to be a lot of blood involved in most of them and raising people from the dead.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion IX

 

A messenger confirms for Tywin and his men that Jaime has been captured by the Starks. Tyrion objects internally to Tywin's choice of words when Tywin speaks as though Jaime is his only son.

 

Tyrion is drinking wine and his thoughts are of Jaime. He thinks that he loves his brother but admits to himself that he wouldn't trade places with Jaime right now for all of the gold in Casterly Rock.

 

Tywin's lords and bannermen initially seem too nervous to say anything as they're listening to the courier bring this news.

 

The Lannister army marched back to the Trident at a furious pace in an effort to make it to Riverrun before the Starks but their efforts are in vain because Robb arrives days before they do, and they lose a bunch of men on the way. Some men are even deserting and Tyrion sort of wishes that he could go with them.

 

Ser Harys Swyft wants to know how this could have happened and wonders what made Jaime make the decision to split his army into three separate camps. Tyrion bristles at Swyft's criticism of Jaime and thinks that Swyft would be nothing if it weren't for the fact that he lucked out by having his daughter married to Ser Kevan thereby securing a spot within the Lannister fold.

 

Kevan sticks up for Jaime after Swyft says this and says that he would have done the same. He goes on to point out that Swyft has never even seen Riverrun and explains that the Tullys have basically turned the castle into a kind of island. He says that in order to keep away anyone trying to aid the Tullys, Jaime would have had to have had men in three different places and that there's no way around this if they want Riverrun besieged.

 

The messenger confirms what Kevan is saying and says that their outriders gave no warning because they were either killed or didn't see anything. Gregor Clegane gives his opinion that the outriders who didn't see anything should have their eyes taken out and Tywin takes a moment to stare at the Mountain after he says this. Tyrion is unable to tell whether or not his father is disgusted.

 

Tywin has been quiet for a long time and he isn't drinking any wine. Tyrion thinks about how he tries to emulate his father by being silent for awhile before finally speaking and notes that Tywin's silence is stretching longer than is typical.

 

Ser Flement Brax asks for news of his father and everyone learns that Lord Brax died because he made the decision to wear all of his armor while he was trying to cross a river on a raft. He led the men to aid one of the Lannister camps but the current of the river took them into the line of the Tullys catapults, so rafts were overturned or smashed and a bunch of men drowned. Those who did manage to make it across on the rafts found Stark men waiting for them.

 

Tyrion spends some time thinking about what an idiot Lord Brax was and wonders if his lordship was feeling so gallant as he felt the weight of his steel dragging him to his death.

 

The camp that was in between the rivers was attacked by men being led by Robb and they're initially able to hold Robb off until Tytos Blackwood assists by assaulting the Lannister troops from behind after the Tullys open the gates to Riverrun. Blackwood was also of assistance by rescuing prisoners including Edmure Tully.

 

Once Ser Forley Prester sees that the other camps are lost he leads the remaining four thousand Lannister men into retreat back to the safety of the Golden Tooth. It's mentioned that the Tyroshi sellsword who is leading a band of freeriders decided to have his men stay and change sides.

 

Kevan is pissed when he hears about the Tyroshi sellsword betraying their side and says that he warned Jaime not to trust him. Tywin still isn't speaking but Tyrion can see that his father is beginning to perspire.

 

Harys Swyft starts crying again about what a catastrophe this is and Addam Marbrand thanks Swyft for pointing out the obvious and then asks what they're all going to do about the situation. Swyft actually suggests that they're already beaten and thinks that they should try to sue for peace.

 

"Peace?" Tyrion swirled his wine thoughtfully, took a deep draft, and hurled his empty cup to the floor, where it shattered into a thousand pieces. "There's your peace, Ser Harys. My sweet nephew broke it for good and all when he decided to ornament the Red Keep with Lord Eddard's head. You'll have an easier time drinking wine from that cup than you will convincing Robb Stark to make peace now. He's winning . . . or hadn't you noticed?"

 

Ser Addam thinks that they're a long way from losing the war and says that he'd welcome the chance to face Robb personally. Lord Lefford wonders if the Starks would be open to a truce and prisoner exchange and Tyrion again basically points out that Joffrey blew that chance for them. Lord Lefford thinks that Robb might be open to the idea of trading Jaime for his sisters, but Ser Addam throws cold water over this idea immediately and says that Robb would have to be a fool to hand Jaime over for two girls.

 

Lord Lefford then suggests paying a huge ransom but Tyrion rolls his eyes and says this isn't about money for the Starks. Ser Addam thinks that a truce will make their side look weak and suggests marching on the Starks immediately. Ser Harys thinks they can get fresh troops from King's Landing in addition to having somebody raise a new host from Casterly Rock.

 

Tywin is on his feet after Swyft speaks and tells everyone to get out. Tyrion begins to leave with the others but Tywin asks him to stay. Kevan is asked to remain as well and once they're alone, Tywin admits to Tyrion that he was right when he said that peace is impossible now that Joffrey has had Ned killed. He says that if Ned had been kept alive they could have first dealt with the Baratheons but now, they're dealing with this mess with the Starks that could have been avoided if he didn't have a completely mad grandson.

 

Tyrion says that Joffrey is only a boy and mentions that he committed a few follies of his own in his youth. Tywin glares at Tyrion and says he supposes they should all be grateful that Joffrey hasn't shamed them all by marrying a whore. Tyrion briefly fantasizes about throwing his wine in Lord Tywin's face.

 

Tywin says that their position is even worse than everyone else knows and informs them that they have a new king to deal with. Kevan briefly thinks this means that something has happened to Joffrey but Tywin says that Joffrey is fine...for now.

 

Tywin says the latest news is that Renly Baratheon has married Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden a couple of weeks ago and this means that Renly now has all of the strength of Highgarden in addition to Storm's End. Tywin says that Cersei commands for them to come defend King's Landing against 'King Renly and the Knight of Flowers'. Tywin is clearly displeased that Cersei is commanding him via the King and small council.

 

Tyrion totally wants to know Joffrey's reaction to the news about Renly but finds out that Cersei hasn't yet informed her son about what's happening because she's afraid he'll try to march on Renly himself. Tyrion wants to know where Joffrey would be getting his army and hopes aloud that Tywin isn't planning on giving one to him. Tywin says that Joffrey has apparently talked about leading the City Watch.

 

Kevan says that Joffrey would be leaving King's Landing undefended and knows that would be a mistake with Stannis and his men over on Dragonstone.

 

Tywin looks at Tyrion and says that he always thought he was a fool but thinks now perhaps he was wrong. Tyrion calls Tywin out for almost giving him a compliment and then asks his father where Stannis is in all of this. Tywin says that he's long felt that Stannis is the bigger danger between the two Baratheons but admits that Stannis hasn't really done anything yet. He does hear things though via Varys. Like about Stannis getting a shadowbinder from Asshai and how he's having ships built and is hiring sellswords. He asks for Kevan to bring him the map so he can break down their situation.

 

Ser Kevan did as he was bid. Lord Tywin unrolled the leather, smoothing it flat. "Jaime has left us in a bad way. Roose Bolton and the remnants of his host are north of us. Our enemies hold the Twins and Moat Cailin. Robb Stark sits to the west, so we cannot retreat to Lannisport and the Rock unless we choose to give battle. Jaime is taken, and his army for all purposes has ceased to exist. Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties. To our east we have the Arryns, Stannis Baratheon sits on Dragonstone, and in the south Highgarden and Storm's End are calling their banners."

 

Tyrion jokingly tells Tywin that at least he can take comfort in the fact that Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead, but Tywin is unamused and tells Tyrion that he thought he'd be able to offer more than jokes.

 

Kevan says that if they linger they might very well be caught between three armies including the men led by Roose Bolton but Tywin doesn't seem worried about Roose, and says that he's a cautious man who has probably grown more cautious since meeting with the Lannisters on the Green Fork. He doesn't think Roose is going to be going after them any time soon.

 

Tywin says that the plan is to head for Harrenhal and they're going to have Ser Addam have outriders to screen their movements. They're going to travel in groups of four so that they don't start disappearing as Jaime's outriders did. Kevan wants to know why Tywin is choosing Harrenhal since it's an unlucky place and said to be cursed but Tywin doesn't care about any of that. He adds the order that Gregor Clegane is to be unleashed on the people of the Riverlands. He wants everything from the God's Eye to the Red Fork put to the torch. Kevan says it will all be done and leaves Tyrion and Tywin alone together.

 

Tywin thinks that Tyrion's mountain men might be in the mood for raping and stealing and suggests they ride with Vargo Hoat to do just that. Tyrion says that he wants his men to stay with him and thinks to himself that he trusts the clansmen more than he trusts his father's men. Tywin says that if Tyrion is keeping his men then he's going to need to learn to control them while they're all in King's Landing.

Tyrion wants to know what he'll be doing in King's Landing and Tywin tells him that he wants him to rule. Tyrion laughs and says that Cersei will have an objection or two about that.

 

"Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council - our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man's father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice." His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false . . . "

 

Tyrion already knows what's coming and assures his father that he knows the drill about heads and spikes on a wall. Tywin comments that he sees Tyrion has taken a few lessons from him. Tyrion asks why he's being given this opportunity and not somebody like Addam Marbrand and Tywin replies it's because Tyrion is his son.

 

Once Tywin says this Tyrion realizes that Tywin has given Jaime up for dead. Tyrion wants to rage at Tywin and hit him but he just stares at his father in silence. As Tywin goes to leave he adds that Tyrion isn't allowed to bring his latest whore to court.

 

Tyrion sits for awhile on his own before returning to his room. He gets into bed with Shae, wakes her up, and whispers to her that he thinks he's going to take her to King's Landing.

[Avaleigh]

If a Westerosi person is lowborn they definitely want to live anywhere but the Riverlands. 

 

There were a couple of times when Swyft took my breath away with his comments. I'm surprised Tywin hasn't done one of his scary stare downs on this guy. Over the course of a few minutes he criticized Jaime, suggested that the Lannisters have lost the war, and basically thinks that they should try to dance to whatever tune the Starks propose in order to get peace. Even if Swyft hasn't been to Riverrun before, surely he's seen it on a map at some point. 

 

I love Tywin's irritation over his daughter having the nerve to officially command him. It's like he's thinking 'who the hell does this arrogant woman think she is?' and it's like, gee, Tywin, I wonder where she could have picked up her arrogance from? 

 

Knowing what we know is going to happen it's interesting to see how the war of the five kings could have gone very differently if the Baratheons hadn't been so stubborn and/or foolish. 

 

I didn't realize that Renly and Margaery were married at Highgarden. That would have been a nice little intro to Highgarden if we'd been allowed to have a Tyrell POV. 

 

I thought the 'Well, at you don't have to deal with Rhaegar' line was pretty funny. Another line that made me laugh was Tywin referring to Varys the cockless wonder. He makes Varys sound like some sort of circus performer or something.  

 

I don't know what to make about that chilling moment where Tywin says that Joffrey is still alive...for now. The main vibe that I got is that Tywin is really, really, really pissed at his grandson for putting Jaime's life in danger because of the Ned thing. 

 

Only three chapters left. Jon's up next. 

[benteen]

That cockless wonder...whoever said Tywin was humorless must have said the same thing about Stannis, who is a fountain of unintentional comedy.

 

Interesting to note that even Tywin greatly respect Ser Barristan and doesn't mock him.

 

Scary that Tywin wanted to unleash to pair the Mountain clans up with Vargo hope to do more raping and pillaging.  Yes, D&D, Tywin isn't really THAT evil...*rolls eyes*

 

It gives you an idea who important LF place is viewed if Tyrion use his father's justification to get rid of LF as soon as he got to King's Landing.

Edited September 14, 2015 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

The Riverlands really is the Belgium or Poland of Westeros.  It's on the way to everything else so it's always being torched and invaded.  It's a wonder its peasantry bother to ever rebuild at all.

 

I'm always a little amazed too that something very bad hasn't happened to Harys Swyft after the way he runs his mouth in this chapter, let alone that he's still around so far down the line.  He's got something to say about absolutely everything and you can very well imagine him babbling away completely oblivious to the icy death glare he has to be getting from Tywin.  But I'm also struck by how weak most of the Lannister bannermen come off as here.  Not one of them save maybe Addam Marbrand shows any real competence or hint of leadership capability.  It's not hard to fill in the blanks from there and think that Tywin being such a ruthless hardass of a liege lord has probably long discouraged anything but cringing and unquestioning subservience.

 

I do kind of love how in this one chapter Tywin makes no bones about what a useless disappointment each member of his family is.  

[glowbug]

Tywin's comment that Joffrey is safe for now seems to indicated that he isn't above kinslaying if he believes it's necessary. I thought it was interesting that he talks about how Joffrey is insane but also seems to place blame on the counsel. It seems to me that he knows that there's something really off about Joffrey but doesn't want to believe it completely or believe that he's a lost cause. He's clearly in denial about the counsel's ability to reign him in, that's for sure. If Joffrey had lived longer there probably would have been a point when even Tywin couldn't have controlled him.

 

Also, with regards to the theory that Tyrion is the son of Joanna Lannister and the Mad King, if true I doubt Tywin knows about it as some people have speculated. I really don't think he would call Tyrion his son if he didn't think he was. He has enough reason to hate Tyrion (unfairly) without suspecting that he's really Aerys' son. I think that if he knew or suspected he would have disposed of him much earlier. 

[nodorothyparker]

I hate any and all theories that make one or more of the Lannister kids a secret Targaryen because they always end up feeling like they're looking for a way to let Tywin off the hook for being such a terrible father.  And all three kids are messed up enough without throwing the Targaryen incest/insanity into the mix.

 

Tywin's comment that Joffrey is safe for now seems to indicated that he isn't above kinslaying if he believes it's necessary. I thought it was interesting that he talks about how Joffrey is insane but also seems to place blame on the counsel. It seems to me that he knows that there's something really off about Joffrey but doesn't want to believe it completely or believe that he's a lost cause. He's clearly in denial about the counsel's ability to reign him in, that's for sure. If Joffrey had lived longer there probably would have been a point when even Tywin couldn't have controlled him.

 

This goes back to the conversation we had somewhere upthread.  I have no trouble believing based on what he's saying here that Tywin may have thought Joffrey had some issues that needed ironing out before but didn't really have a handle on just a what a complete sociopathic disaster he really was until Joffers beheaded Ned and made a public spectacle of it.  And since he seems to be under the impression that it's a matter of getting bad counsel and that Cersei and company should be doing a better job of getting him in line, he still doesn't.  I'm left wondering if this was intentional or a misdirect that we could be left thinking that Tywin could have had his own grandson murdered in favor of a more pliable candidate before he could reach adulthood and become completely uncontrollable.

[Avaleigh]

Tywin's comment that Joffrey is safe for now seems to indicated that he isn't above kinslaying if he believes it's necessary. I thought it was interesting that he talks about how Joffrey is insane but also seems to place blame on the counsel. It seems to me that he knows that there's something really off about Joffrey but doesn't want to believe it completely or believe that he's a lost cause. He's clearly in denial about the counsel's ability to reign him in, that's for sure. If Joffrey had lived longer there probably would have been a point when even Tywin couldn't have controlled him.

 

Also, with regards to the theory that Tyrion is the son of Joanna Lannister and the Mad King, if true I doubt Tywin knows about it as some people have speculated. I really don't think he would call Tyrion his son if he didn't think he was. He has enough reason to hate Tyrion (unfairly) without suspecting that he's really Aerys' son. I think that if he knew or suspected he would have disposed of him much earlier. 

I've long admitted to thinking that Tyrion is the product of Aerys and Joanna but I agree with your comments on how Tywin feels about Joffrey. I don't think he'd kill him directly but I can see it being a situation where he doesn't discourage Joffrey from doing something that would lead to his demise or something like a hunting accident where he can talk himself into believing that he wasn't ultimately responsible. 

 

I actually thought Tywin's opening comment was an indication that Jaime is the only son that he knows is his for sure. I'm not going to list all of the reasons why I think that AJT is true (it really is a very long list) but I will say that I disagree with the idea that Tywin would have had Tyrion killed if he'd so much as suspected. I feel like it's not taking everything into account like his love for Joanna and any doubts that he might have had that Tyrion could indeed be his. That's in addition to him not wanting to confirm for the world that Aerys raped or had sex with his wife. (I'm 98% sure it was rape for several reasons.)

 

I don't think that Tywin's treatment of Tyrion is justified no matter who Tyrion's biological father turns out to be. It seems like one of the many objections to the theory that Tyrion isn't Tywin's biological child is that it somehow gives Tywin a pass or an out for treating Tyrion like shit and I disagree. Tywin is wrong for treating Tyrion the way that he does but I think the AJT reveal would be a better explanation for Tywin being so adamant that Tyrion isn't getting the ancestral seat of House Lannister. I thought that point seemed even more explicit on the show. From the very beginning we've had these doubts creep in about Tyrion's paternity and I'm guessing there's a reason for it. 

[Lady S.]

Tywin's comment that Joffrey is safe for now seems to indicated that he isn't above kinslaying if he believes it's necessary. I thought it was interesting that he talks about how Joffrey is insane but also seems to place blame on the counsel. It seems to me that he knows that there's something really off about Joffrey but doesn't want to believe it completely or believe that he's a lost cause. He's clearly in denial about the counsel's ability to reign him in, that's for sure. If Joffrey had lived longer there probably would have been a point when even Tywin couldn't have controlled him.

 

Also, with regards to the theory that Tyrion is the son of Joanna Lannister and the Mad King, if true I doubt Tywin knows about it as some people have speculated. I really don't think he would call Tyrion his son if he didn't think he was. He has enough reason to hate Tyrion (unfairly) without suspecting that he's really Aerys' son. I think that if he knew or suspected he would have disposed of him much earlier. 

I thought that line was just about Joff being safe from their enemies temporarily. Kevan asks what "they" have done to Joffrey for there to be a new king, and Tywin says "nothing yet". Tywin made no indication of a change in subject, so, grammatically, I'd have to assume he was referring to Kevan's "they". I don't think Tywin is capable of direct kinslaying, both because Tyrion would have been dead years ago if he was, and because Tywin isn't willing to face reality about his own family and be that cold and logical. (His hatred for Tyrion's very existence being entirely irrational.) He managed the Mad King for years, and the only time he put Aerys's life in danger was indirectly, at the siege of Duskendale. I don't think he would write off his own grandson as a lost cause they couldn't afford to keep alive after taking so much shit from an even madder king who was not related to him. I think his muttering about "Madness. Rank Madness." was just a description of their whole shitty situation, including all of Cersei's stupid choices, and possibly the crazyness of their sudden change of fortune with Jaime's capture and the victories of a 15yo green boy, not a specific diagnosis of Joffrey. I also think a bad guy like Tywin could very well be a gods-fearing man. Fear of hellfire isn't limited to good and pious men, and tv Cersei had a line in Blackwater about Tywin believing in the gods, but still disliking them. I'd expect what we think of as atheism to be less common in a medieval-type society. 

 

 

I love Tywin's irritation over his daughter having the nerve to officially command him. It's like he's thinking 'who the hell does this arrogant woman think she is?' and it's like, gee, Tywin, I wonder where she could have picked up her arrogance from? 

 

Both of their arrogance is in play here, isn't it? The Hand of the King should be following the King's commands, shouldn't he? Instead Tywin decides he'll return to King's Landing on his own time and then names his proxy without consulting the king. Imagine if Ned had left KL as planned, without Bob's permission, and left someone else behind, expecting him to carry on the Hand's work with the Hand's full authority. I can't imagine there's precedent for this kind of unilateral decision of substitution with any previous King's Hand. The King's Hand also shouldn't be so wantonly destroying the king's lands, the riverlords haven't even tried to secede with Robb yet. Tywin should be trying to claim the lands around Harrenhal in Joffrey's name, not burning them just to unleash his own frustrations.

 

One of the reasons I hate A+J=T is because it gives Tywin a logical excuse for denying Tyrion's inheritance and diminishes all his irrational reasons given involving Tyrion's dwarfism and Joanna's death in childbirth. I think Tywin doesn't need a better explanation than all the irrational hatred he spews in that scene to deny his own son. He probably wishes Tyrion wasn't his or Joanna's because it's that unacceptable that she died for the sake of an ugly dwarf. But that scene is two books later and I don't wanna go off on a tangent so I'll stop there.  

[Holmbo]

It's fun to try to interpret Tywin because we mostly just see him trough Tyrion's POV which puts a lot of his own assumptions to it. What do you think was the reasoning for giving Tyrion his position? I don't think it was because he thinks Jaime is dead. But I also don't buy the reason he seems to give, that he always thought Tyrion was a fool but now after this conversation he suddenly changed his mind. I wonder if he's hoping Tyrion will meet the same faith as the two previous hands.

When it comes theories about secret Targaryen Lannisters I think a lot of people put too much proof into what Tywin is saying. He's claimed both Jaime and Tyrion as "his sons" and "not his sons". He's covered himself fully for any kind of revelation.

 

I think J + A = T seems likely and I'm not very happy about that. Because I think a lot of people will interpret that Tywin knew about this and that's the entire reason for him treating Tyrion badly. And the current reasons are much more interesting and make Tywin look more stupid which I'm all for.
ETA: I see your end comment was similar to mine Lady S. It got posted while I was writing.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Holmbo

[Lady S.]

It's fun to try to interpret Tywin because we mostly just see him trough Tyrion's POV which puts a lot of his own assumptions to it. What do you think was the reasoning for giving Tyrion his position? I don't think it was because he thinks Jaime is dead. But I also don't buy the reason he seems to give, that he always thought Tyrion was a fool but now after this conversation he suddenly changed his mind. I wonder if he's hoping Tyrion will meet the same faith as the two previous hands.

This is also from a show scene, but I've always thought Tywin choosing Tyrion was partially as a way to punish Cersei. Their scene in 2.01 includes Tyrion telling her she's the disappointing child at the moment. What better way for Tywin to show his displeasure with Cersei and Joffrey's idiocy prolonging war with the Starks than by sending Tyrion to take charge of Cersei and Joffrey? And even if Tywin isn't aware of just how out of control Joffrey can be, he knows that having to babysit a bad king can be a thankless job and that being a general makes for easier management, so he stays with his army and sends someone not needed on the battlefield. Tyrion first asks why Kevan is not getting the job, but Cersei would see that as the closest thing to Tywin himself, wouldn't she? Kevan going in Tywin's place says Tywin's busy so he's sending the next best person to best help Cersei, Tyrion coming in Tywin's place says Tywin doesn't care what she wants and trusts his least favorite kid more than he trusts her. And Tyrion gets all the responsibility of defending the capital but he can't hold the city without Tywin's army coming to the rescue, so of course the credit goes to Tywin. If Tyrion died before battle though, that would give Cersei free reign again, so I don't think Tywin would want that.

It occurs to me that if Littlefinger did convince Joffrey to execute Ned, than that was a problem of bad counsel and a traitor in their midst whose head need to be on a spike.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Lady S.

[John Potts]

I hate all the "secret heir" stuff - I want Jon to be Ned's bastard son and Tyrion to be Tywin's (I'm resigned to probably being disappointed on the first, I don't think I will be on the second). But only time (and the great bearded glacier!) will tell

 

I think Tywin is more disappointed in the Small Council because Joffrey is still a minor (I don't know if Westeros - or at least the Seven Kingdoms actually have the concept of coming of age, but officially Cersei is Joffrey's Regent). After all, Tywin managed to restrain the Mad King for years and nobody denied he was an adult (crazy, but an adult) during that time so controlling a boy should be easy (at least from his viewpoint).

[glowbug]

I've long admitted to thinking that Tyrion is the product of Aerys and Joanna but I agree with your comments on how Tywin feels about Joffrey. I don't think he'd kill him directly but I can see it being a situation where he doesn't discourage Joffrey from doing something that would lead to his demise or something like a hunting accident where he can talk himself into believing that he wasn't ultimately responsible. 

 

 

I agree. I don't think Tywin would use his own weapon, but, to use an example from this chapter, he might not have stopped him from going out with the City Watch to take on Renley if he wanted him out of the way. There are plenty of stupid ways Joffrey would have gotten himself killed if he hadn't been stopped.

 

I'm in the camp that doesn't want Tyrion to be a secret Targaryen for some of the reasons mentioned above. I think it simplifies the complexity of the relationship between him and Tywin. I like that Tyrion, the son Tywin despises, is the most like him, and it just wouldn't be the same if he wasn't truly his son even if in some ways he's more like Tywin than either Cersei or Jamie. I started off thinking the theory was completely nuts but after reading more arguments in favor of it I think there's a 50/50 chance that it's true. I hope not but I think it's one of the more likely theories, though no where near as likely as Jon being a secret Targaryen. In any case, I stand by my opinion that if it is true, Tywin doesn't know it or suspect it because he would have gotten rid of Tyrion. I don't necessarily think he would publicize Tyrion's parentage to protect the memory of Joanna and/or his own pride, but he could easily arrange for Tyrion to have a fatal accident.

 

I don't think it's so much that Tyrion is kin that protects him from having an "accident" so much as that he is Tywin's son, which is why I think Joffrey is fair game if he ever proved to be unmanageable. At this point Tywin clearly thinks that part of the reason for Joffrey's foolish actions regarding Ned is bad counsel but he would have learned the truth sooner or later. Even if Littlefinger had a hand in Ned's execution, Joffrey is still an unreasonable psychopath and would be almost impossible to control as he aged. Tywin isn't above putting hated kin in dangerous situations. Presumably, he believes Tyrion is his son and he sent him off into battle (a dwarf without proper equipment and little to no experience) where there was a good possibility that he would die. He's careless with Tyrion's life and he probably would be more so had Jamie not joined the King's Guard.

 

I like the idea that Tyrion is sent to King's Landing as a punishment for Cersei, however, I don't think it's the only reason. If Tywin hadn't had confidence in Tyrion's ability to rule in his stead, he wouldn't have sent him. He wouldn't jeopardize his family's power just to send Cersei a message. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by glowbug

[Avaleigh]

Jon IX

 

Jon is saddling up a horse so that he can leave the Night's Watch and join the fighting with Robb. Sam is watching Jon and does his best to keep him from leaving. Jon tells Sam to move out of the way or he'll ride him down, so Sam attempts to stand his ground for a moment before jumping out of the way.

 

Jon is racing down the Kingsroad and Ghost is keeping pace by his side. He wants to get as far as he can from the Wall before Mormont wakes up and sends some men after him. He knows that everyone at the Wall will know where he's headed.

 

Jon has left Longclaw behind as he thinks it would be dishonorable to take it. He thinks about how the Old Bear's son Jorah hadn't even done that. He also thinks that no matter what he chooses to do he feels as though he's betraying someone.

 

Even now, he did not know if he was doing the honorable thing. The southron had it easier. They had their septons to talk to, someone to tell them the gods' will and help sort out right from wrong. But the Starks worshiped the old gods, the nameless gods, and if the heart trees heard, they did not speak.

 

Going to Winterfell is out of the question and Jon thinks that even if Bran were to let him in that Maester Luwin would send him away. Jon can still picture Winterfell as though he only left yesterday and thinks about how he'd like nothing more than to visit with Bran and listen to one of Old Nan's stories. He knows that he didn't leave the Wall to head for Winterfell. He's left because he wants to fight with Robb so that they can avenge their father together.

 

He thinks about how he's making a choice that is different than the choice Aemon Targaryen made and then thinks about how Tyrion Lannister once said that most men would rather deny unpleasant truths than face them. Jon feels that he needs to face the unpleasant truth that he'll always be an outsider.

 

He feels that nothing matters more than avenging Ned and fighting at Robb's side. At the same time, when Jon tries to picture Robb's reaction when he finally reaches him, he can't imagine that Robb will be smiling. His thoughts drift to the deserter from the Night's Watch that Ned beheaded. Jon wonders if Ned would have beheaded Benjen if Benjen had turned deserter and tries to tell himself that family ties will make a difference, but it's clear that he has doubts about this.

 

Jon thinks that he doesn't fear death but he does fear going out like some common prisoner. He hopes that he'll die with a sword in his hand on a battlefield. He thinks that he might not be a trueborn Stark but hopes that he might be able to die like one. He also hopes it'll be said that Ned had four sons rather than three.

 

Ghost starts falling back but Jon knows that he'll continue to follow at his own pace.

 

He's reached Mole's Town now and Jon wonders if any of the men from the Night's Watch will be there visiting the brothel. He notes that nobody seems to care about oathbreaking when it comes to men visiting women at Mole's Town.

 

As Jon is going through the town, he wonders why he feels so bad if he's actually doing the right thing. Some distance away Jon hears the scream of an animal and this makes him call out for Ghost. He calls for the direwolf several times but Ghost doesn't appear, so Jon decides that he's going to eat and wait for him to catch up. He's just finishing his meal when he hears horses approaching.

 

Jon soon hears the voices of his friends from the Night's Watch. Grenn, Pyp, Halder, Matthar, and Toad have all decided to go after Jon and Jon listens to them argue for a moment while worrying that they might end up getting in trouble for being deserters too.

 

Ghost ends up giving Jon's location away, and Jon draws his sword on the others saying that he doesn't want to hurt them but will if he has to. Halder tells Jon that he's outnumbered and the guys begin to spread out. Jon asks them what they want of him and Pyp replies that they want to bring him back to the Wall. Jon says he belongs with his brother Robb, and Grenn tells Jon that the men of the Night's Watch are his brothers now.

 

Toad points out that Jon's going to have his head cut off if he deserts.

 

Jon thinks that his friends don't understand what he's going through and explains about how his father was murdered and that there's a war going on in the south. Pyp says that they know all about it because Sam told them everything. Pyp reminds Jon that he said the words of the Night's Watch just as they did and that his place is with them. Jon curses his friends and tells them to stay back.

 

The guys start reciting their vows to Jon and when they're finished Pyp says that Jon can either kill him or head back to the Wall with him. Jon damns them all but agrees to head back. He tells himself that he can try to leave after he convinces them that he's content to stay. He thinks that next time he won't take the Kingsroad.

 

Sam is waiting for them when they return and tells Jon that he's glad they found him. Jon replies that he isn't happy they caught up with him and heads over to the kitchens so that he can get Mormont's breakfast.

 

He brings Mormont his food and Mormont starts talking to him about Ned. He says that he knows Jon loved Ned but tells him that he warned him that it's the things people do for love that end up destroying them. He informs Jon that he knows all about his late night ride and asks if it was tiring. Jon feels foolish once he realizes that Mormont and Aemon both suspected that he'd try to go so guards were keeping a watch on Jon and would have gone to get him if his friends hadn't gone after him first.

 

Jon seems to think that this means he's going to die and tells Mormont that he isn't afraid. Mormont says that he also hopes that Jon isn't afraid to live and admits that they basically wouldn't have any men at the Wall if they executed every man who made a late night trip into Mole's Town.

 

Mormont wonders if Jon thinks that he can bring his father back from the dead and comments that he personally isn't interested in seeing anymore resurrected corpses. Mormont then asks Jon if he thinks Robb really needs him when he has thousands of guys fighting by his side. He wonders what sort of might warrior Jon takes himself to be.

 

Mormont points out to Jon that he's not the only one who's been touched by the war and mentions that his sister and nieces are out there fighting with Robb. He isn't even super fond of Maege, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love her and worry about her. He says this information doesn't change the fact that his place is now at the Wall just as Jon's is. Jon says that he doesn't know where his place is and thinks to himself that he has no true place because he's a bastard. The Old Bear says he does know where Jon's place is.

 

"The cold winds are rising, Snow. Beyond the Wall, the shadows lengthen. Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch. Rangers from the Shadow Tower have found whole villages abandoned, and at night Ser Denys says they see fires in the mountains, huge blazes that burn from dusk till dawn. Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he's found, to what end the gods only know. Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we've lost this past year?"

 

Jon admits that he knows other rangers have been lost in the past year.

 

Mormont then asks Jon if he thinks that Robb's war is more important than the war the men at the Wall are fighting. Jon says he doesn't think that and admits to himself that he hadn't thought about it this way before.

 

Mormont brings up the fact that Starks have the blood of the First Men and says that the First Men are the ones who built the Wall. It's said that the First Men remember things that others have forgotten. He thinks about how Jon's direwolf led them to the wights and says that he thinks Jon was meant to be a part of the Night's Watch for some reason. He says that he wants Jon and Ghost to go with him when he goes Beyond the Wall. Jon is both nervous and excited when Mormont says this.

 

"You heard me. I mean to find Ben Stark, alive or dead." He chewed and swallowed. "I will not sit here meekly and wait for the snows and the ice winds. We must know what is happening. This time the Night's Watch will ride in force, against the King-beyond-the-Wall, the Others, and anything else that may be out there. I mean to command them myself." He pointed his dagger at Jon's chest. "By custom, the Lord Commander's steward is his squire as well . . . but I do not care to wake every dawn wondering if you've run off again. So I will have an answer from you, Lord Snow, and I will have it now. Are you a brother of the Night's Watch . . . or only a bastard boy who wants to play at war?"

 

Jon privately asks for forgiveness from his father and siblings and thinks to himself that he can't help them now. He understands that his place is with the Night's Watch and swears his loyalty to Mormont. He says that he won't try to run again.

 

The Old Bear is pleased and tells Jon to go and put on his sword.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Avaleigh

[glowbug]

Mormont then asks Jon if he thinks that Robb's war is more important than the war the men at the Wall are fighting. 

 

The answer is no. 

 

And I really hope GRRM answers the question of what happened to Benjen Stark. I'm worried he's not going to tell us and use the "in the real world some mysteries are never solved" excuse even though his story is fiction and he's not even writing about the real world. 

[Avaleigh]

I don't have much for this chapter. It's nice that Jon has already earned a lot of loyalty from people. I also like that Jeor knows that Jon needs a taste of adventure. I also liked the line about how he feels about Maege. It was also good for Jon to hear that he isn't the only one with family fighting in the war. There are probably other men on the Wall who have relatives involved in the fighting, men from both sides. 

 

I also noticed Jon thinking of Aemon and Tyrion back to back. Tyrion made quite an impression on Jon. This is another meet up that I'm really looking forward to.

 

For so long I'd accepted the Coldhands/Benjen theory and now that this one has been put to bed I don't know what to think. I do know that I'll be annoyed if it's just left unexplained. 

 

Catelyn is up next and then only one more left. I'm looking forward to getting the description of Riverrun. 

[benteen]

I wonder if we'll ever get an explanation about Benjen.

 

Interesting bit where Jon thinks that even Jorah left Longclaw behind out of respect.  I know Jeor left Sam with a dying message for Jorah but I don't think Jorah's ever going to hear it.  I'd love some interaction between him, Sam and Jon though.

[Avaleigh]

I definitely like the idea of Sam talking to Jorah. I also want him to tell Dany about Maester Aemon. 

 

There really are a lot of non-Stark reunions and/or meetings that I'm looking forward to seeing.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

Seeing Mormont vow to find Benjen alive or dead makes me a little sad knowing how all that turned out.  Four books later ...

 

I like Mormont though and like him admitting that he's not wild about his family but still worries about them going off to fight.  He's an inherently practical man.  I do wish we'd gotten some backstory on him though on how he came to be at the Wall.  Wouldn't he be the lord of Bear Island if he wasn't there?  Is he there voluntarily?  He mentions Jorah's crimes but never any of his own, so it doesn't seem like he's there as punishment.  I've always sort of had the impression that northerners see serving at the Wall as a kind of honor, if not a particularly popular one, as opposed to southerners who generally end up sentenced to it.

 

Jon's cohorts chasing after him to convince him to return by reciting their vows strikes me as kind of precious, but it works.  I suppose it appeals to teenage boys who can still be swayed by the idea that there's something honorable in a sworn lifetime of service.

Edited September 15, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

I got the impression that he joined the Night's Watch because he was concerned about its decline, prior to Robert's Rebellion.  It allowed for his son Jorah, who he apparently had a lot of confidence in, to become Lord of Bear Island.

I've always wanted to know how Jorah's slavetrading was discovered.

[Avaleigh]

I have to assume that one or more of the people who were sold into slavery had family who ended up talking and possibly even tried to go to Ned to seek justice. As to how Ned got proof that Jorah did it I'm less clear about that but presumably there were witnesses who talked.

[benteen]

I keep wondering too if Jorah was given up by a (literate) servant of House Mormont.  The maester or master-at-arms perhaps.

 

My guess too was that the slaver ship was found and some kind of proof was found, perhaps something with Jorah's signature.  I can definitely buy that the poachers families went to Ned and if we follow the Tywin example, Ned would have given Jorah notice that he would have to answer these charges.  Based on what's written in the book, Ned went to Bear Island in order to meet out justice for Jorah's crimes so he likely had definitive proof of his guilt.

 

I've joked before, knowing how dumb Ned is he probably told Jorah in a letter he was coming.

[Lady S.]

The thing I find interesting in this chapter is how Jon never thinks about what an awkward position he'd be putting Robb in if he had made it to the northern army. It's not just a matter of Robb overlooking his oathbreaking to let him join but Robb having to explain that to everyone else. And at the end he mentally asks Ned, Robb, Arya, and Bran to forgive him, as if they would expect his help and see this as a betrayal. I feel certain Ned and Robb would understand his duty to the Night's Watch, since Ned was pretty big on duty and oathkeeping. His desperation to avenge Ned is perfectly understandable, but the certainty that it's the right choice for his family and the feeling that his place is with Robb, I think, is due partly to his ever-present bastard angst. He always felt like he had something to prove about being a true Stark, always felt left out. He chose to leave home for the NW, but did so sooner than he may have if Ned hadn't left home too. Some part of him felt driven out, not just moving on like Benjen. Then trauma after trauma after trauma happened to his family after he left, leading to Robb leaving home to fight for the family. He would have felt even more left out and forgotten and not a true Stark, and if he chose to stay at Castle Black, it would mean accepting a real break from his family, and would feel like accepting that the cold stepmother was right and he never belonged with them, while playing a key role in avenging and defending the family would prove the opposite. It's choice he seems to come to terms with after refusing Stannis's offer,

but the issues are still unresolved enough to come to the surface in a different and very big way at the end of Dance.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[benteen]

I can only imagine the shitfit Catelyn would have thrown if Jon had turned up at Riverrun.

[Lady S.]

They'd both be in for a surprise since Jon had no idea she was with Robb. I wonder if/how it would affect his decision if he had known.

[Avaleigh]

I hadn't considered that Jon wouldn't have reason to know that Catelyn was with Robb. Heh, if he'd known I'm pretty that alone would have been enough to at least maybe make him reconsider. At the same time, he seems to know that Catelyn isn't at Winterfell because when he thinks about how it would be to visit Bran he thinks that Maester Luwin would be the one to turn him away not Catelyn. I wonder where he thinks she is? 

[Lady S.]

I hadn't considered that Jon wouldn't have reason to know that Catelyn was with Robb. Heh, if he'd known I'm pretty that alone would have been enough to at least maybe make him reconsider. At the same time, he seems to know that Catelyn isn't at Winterfell because when he thinks about how it would be to visit Bran he thinks that Maester Luwin would be the one to turn him away not Catelyn. I wonder where he thinks she is? 

He's probably just trying not to think of her at all, since she's the one person from home he definitely does not want to see again, and he's so focused on his fantasy of he and Robb fighting side by side. If he hasn't heard anything about her, it could make it easier to forget about her.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

Perhaps Jon feels guilty for swearing his vows therefore not being there for his family when they need him. That's what he's asking for forgiveness for.

[Lady S.]

Interesting interpretation, though either way he still has nothing to apologize for. I read it as being about his final decision to be Mormont's man instead of a boy playing at war because his vows hadn't reallly been a deciding point, he was still planning to run off again before Mormont talked him out of it.

[WearyTraveler]

True, but I think the vows did play a part.  I think the guys from the NW would have had a harder task had they not decided to remind Jon of his vows in such a dramatic way.  I think Jon was torn between two honor duties, like so many other characters in the series, before and after him.

 

Do I honor my father or do I honor the NW? It's a tough choice.

[Holmbo]

I was thinking a bit about this event and it struck me how seldom the characters of this story are allowed to change their mind and get a redo. So many times where someone regrets an important decision they've made but it's too late for them to go back. Jon decides to desert the NW but is not doomed by this decision but instead gets a redo. Or perhaps the big difference is that Jon (unlike basically every other pov character) have a bunch of people who has his best interest in mind and helps him when he gets it wrong. I guess Bran has something similar but every other pov character is quite alone in comparison.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Holmbo

[benteen]

Without his vows, I think Jon would have gone back to Robb and perhaps he would have returned to the Night's Watch at a later date.

[nksarmi]

I wonder if Robb would have accepted Jon or if he would have called him a deserter and killed him.  If he accepted him and allowed him to fight beside him, he would have lost a certain amount of face with his men.  On the other hand, Jon and Ghost fighting beside Robb and Greywind?  I wonder if Jon could have been enough to save Robb's life.

[Lady S.]

Idt Robb could have accepted or executed him, he would've had to send Jon back, probably with some note of pardon to keep Mormont from executing him. I also think Jeor was right about one more soldier not making a difference in a 20,000 men army and the NW needing Jon more than Robb did. The big difference to Robb's story I see if Jon had never joined the NW in the first place, is that if he and Robb were together at the Crag they could have grieved Bran and Rickon's "deaths" together, instead of Robb finding comfort in other quarters there.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Lady S.

[nksarmi]

Idt Robb could have accepted or executed him, he would've had to send Jon back, probably with some note of pardon to keep Mormont from executing him. I also think Jeor was right about one more soldier not making a difference in a 20,000 men army and the NW needing Jon more than Robb did.

Generally speaking, I think he was right as well.  I do think there are two things Jon could have done though that none of those 20,000 men could....1) I think there is a decent chance Robb could have sent Jon to retake Winterfell once Theon messed up and Jon would have succeeded.  Then Jon could have held WF and prevented Ramsey from taking over there.  I've often said that I think Catelyn being in WF would have prevented this mess as well.  It really isn't about fighting prowess in that instance, it's about having a strong Stark leader in WF and Jon might be been able to accomplish that for Robb.

 

2) I think there is a chance that if Jon and Ghost had been fighting side by side with Robb, he might have prevented Robb from being injured or he himself would have been the one to give him news of Bran and Rickon and they would have mourned together instead of what happens.  That might have made a difference in the overall story arc as well.

 

But both of those things would be dependent on Jon being allowed to stay.  If he wasn't because he already took the NW vows - it hardly matters.

Edited September 16, 2015 by nksarmi

[benteen]

At the very least, Jon wouldn't have been at the Red Wedding (he likely would have stayed behind with Blackfish) and would have been in a better place to become King in the North and lead what was left of the Northern forces.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn XI

 

Robb was just a baby the last time Catelyn was at Riverrun and now that she's back, it seems like a thousand years have passed since she last saw the castle.

 

They're crossing the river in a small boat and Catelyn thinks about how Robb was in swaddling clothes the first time he crossed this river. Now, her son is in plate and mail and he has his direwolf by his side. Theon is also at Robb's side and coming behind in a second boat are Brynden, the Greatjon, and Lord Karstark.

 

The sounds of Riverrrun remind Catelyn of her childhood and this brings a sad smile to her face. Her thoughts briefly go to Ned.

 

As they're passing through the Water Gate, Catelyn wonders if the portcullis ought to be replaced. Once they pass underneath the arch and wall they're met by Tully guards who assist them in getting out of the boats. Theon decides to be extra gallant with Catelyn and lifts her out of the boat to place her on dry steps. He gets his boots completely soaked while he does all of this.

 

Edmure greets his sister warmly and Catelyn gives him a tight hug in return. She thinks her brother looks tired and notices that he's taken a wound to his neck. He tells her that they are all grieving for Ned just as she is and assures her that the Lannisters are going to pay for what they've done.

 

Catelyn doesn't want to allow her thoughts to go to Ned and says that vengeance won't bring her husband back to her. She wants to see her father and the steward informs her that her father is bedridden and has instructed him to have Catelyn brought to him at once.

 

Edmure escorts his sister to the solar and Catelyn immediately wants to know how bad their father's condition is. Edmure admits that their father won't live long and says that the maesters have confirmed this.

 

Catelyn feels angry at the gods and the world. She's angry with her brother for not telling her about their father's failing heath sooner and Edmure says that their father asked him not to because he didn't want their enemies to know of his weakened condition.

 

A voice in Catelyn's head tells her that everything is her fault and that things might have been very different if she hadn't seized Tyrion.

 

They enter the solar of Hoster Tully and join him on his balcony. Hoster is pleased to see his daughter and calls her 'little cat' as he clutches her hand. He tells her that he's been watching for her arrival. Edmure kisses Hoster on the brow and then leaves so that Catelyn can be alone with their father.

 

Catelyn kneels and tells her father that he ought to have sent word that he was ill. She tells him that Robb is there too and will want to see him. Hoster says that he remembers how Robb had his eyes and Catelyn tells him that Robb still does.

 

She mentions that they've brought him Jaime Lannister and this makes Hoster smile. He tells his daughter that he saw and heard the fighting for himself from the battlements. He asks her if it was her son who led the fighting and Catelyn is proud to tell him that it was indeed Robb who led this victory. She says that Brynden fought too and Hoster seems surprised to hear this. He then asks after Lysa thinking that if Brynden has come all the way from the Vale then perhaps Lysa has too.

 

Catelyn tells her father that Lysa is with her son in the Vale. Hoster is greatly sad to hear this and it's clear that he wants to see Lysa one last time before he dies.

 

Hoster repeats what he said about Robb having his eyes and then suddenly wants to know if the Blackfish ever got married. Catelyn notes that Hoster won't let the matter drop even on his death bed. She tells him that Bryden has not married and says that he never will.

 

Hoster is still bent out of shape that Bryden refused his repeated command to get married. The first girl the Blackfish was supposed to marry was Bethany Redwyne. Bethany went on to marry Lord Rowan and have three children with him. Hoster says that he had all kinds of offers that the Blackfish could have accepted if he'd been willing. He asks again if the Blackfish has married anyone and Catelyn changes the subject and says that she wouldn't be sitting there talking with him were it not for Brynden's help.

 

Hoster admits that Brynden was always a great warrior and says that he'll see him later but for now he wants to sleep. He says he's too ill to fight.

 

Catelyn kisses her father on the head and leaves him to sleep. She then goes to see Brynden who is in conversation with some of the guards. She confirms for Brynden that her father is dying and the Blackfish is clearly pained to hear this. He asks if Hoster will see him and Catelyn assures her uncle that he will. She adds that her father says he is too sick to fight anymore and Bryden replies that he's too old to fall for that and says he's sure that he's going to be lectured about how he refused to marry Bethany Redwyne.

 

Catelyn seems to appreciate how well Brynden knows his brother and wonders where Robb has gone. Brynden answers that Robb went with Theon to the Great Hall, so Catelyn goes to find Theon seated and talking to men from Riverrun about what happened at the Whispering Wood. She interrupts to ask Theon where Robb is and is informed that her son is in the godswood. She thinks to herself that this is where Ned would have gone and thinks about how Robb is just as much Ned's son as her own.

 

Catelyn finds Robb in the godswood along with other lords who keep to the old gods. Maege Mormont is there as well and they are all kneeling and quiet. Catelyn decides that she doesn't want to disturb them and wonders which gods she herself follows these days. She feels that the gods are cruel.

 

Memories come flooding back to Catelyn and she thinks about her father teaching her to ride and how she and Lysa would play at kissing with Petyr Baelish. Catelyn remembers Lysa telling her that she liked it when Petyr would put his tongue in her mouth.

 

She finds herself wondering if Robb has ever kissed a girl in the godswood and thinks about how Jeyne Poole always had a bit of a crush on her son. Serving girls were also crushing on Robb so Catelyn thinks that surely he's kissed at least one girl by now. She realizes that she has tears in her eyes as she's thinking about all of this.

 

Robb notices his mother's presence and she tells him that his grandfather wants to see him. Robb tells her that they'll have to call a council since Renly Baratheon has just declared himself to be King. They're all shocked and it seems that most were under the impression that Stannis would be the one to claim Robert's crown.

 

The war council includes Edmure, Robb, the bannermen of the North, and various bannermen to the Tullys. Catelyn listens to the men argue late into the night.

 

Most of the bannermen want to march on Harrenhal and crush Tywin's army once and for all. Others like Lord Bracken think it would be a good idea to acknowledge Renly as King and join their strength to his.

 

Robb doesn't feel that Renly has the right to call himself King and says that Tommen will be the new King after he kills Joffrey. He says even if Tommen isn't the rightful King that Stannis still comes before Renly. Maege Mormont speaks up to agree with Robb that Stannis has the stronger claim.

 

Marq Piper argues that if they join up with Renly then they'll have the power of at least five of Great Houses against the Lannisters. He asks what Stannis has to offer that can top what they would get if they were to join up with Renly, and Robb responds that Stannis has the right. Catelyn is unnerved by how much Robb reminds her of Ned after Robb says this.

 

Robb is unsure of what to do because he doesn't want to be a traitor but he also doesn't want the Lannisters to get away with killing Ned.

 

Catelyn asks why they all can't consider peace and Robb looks at her and feels like he has to remind her it's because the Lannisters are responsible for her husband's death. He unsheathes his sword and lays it on the table saying that this is the only peace he has to offer the Lannisters.

 

The Greatjon bellowed his approval, and other men added their voices, shouting and drawing swords and pounding their fists on the table. Catelyn waited until they had quieted. "My lords," she said then, "Lord Eddard was your liege, but I shared his bed and bore his children. Do you think I love him any less than you?" Her voice almost broke with her grief, but Catelyn took a long breath and steadied herself. "Robb, if that sword could bring him back, I should never let you sheathe it until Ned stood at my side once more . . . but he is gone, and hundred Whispering Woods will not change that. Ned is gone, and Daryn Hornwood, and Lord Karstark's valiant sons, and many other good men besides, and none of them will return to us. Must we have more deaths still?"

 

The Great Jon says that Catelyn is a woman so she doesn't understand and Lord Karstark adds that Catelyn doesn't really know what it's like to want vengeance. When Karstark says that women are the 'gentle' sex, Catelyn cites Cersei Lannister as an example to show that it's nonsense to say all women are sweet and gentle.

 

Catelyn indicates that she thinks it would be worth it to trade Jaime for her daughters but the men, save Stevron Frey, don't seem interested in making peace with the Lannisters. They mention their grievances and it soon becomes clear that they're at the point where they can't accept pledging fealty to a Lannister king at all.

 

Catelyn is upset and thinks that she was close to convincing them all that peace was a preferable option. As she's wondering if she'll ever see Arya and Sansa again, the Greatjon suddenly gets to his feet.

 

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. " Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"

 

The Greatjon kneels and places his sword at Robb's feet and Lord Karstark soon goes over to kneel and join him. Maege Mormont lays her spiked mace by the swords of Karstark and Umber and declares Robb to be the 'King of Winter'.

 

The lords of the Riverlands join the party too and bend their knees to Robb. Catelyn thinks about how they're shouting words that haven't been said in three hundred years since the arrival of Aegon the Conqueror.

 

The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros now has a third king.

[Lady S.]

Two details stick out as this is a re-read.

 

The last time Catelyn had seen him, his hair and beard had been brown, well streaked with grey.

 

Does the online version I'm using to c&p have this right? Brown, not the auburn or red-brown the Tullys are known for? Hoster's hair was just plain brown. I'm surprised no one's made a crack theory about the Blackfish having an affair with his brother's wife, since Brynden did have the Tully red hair that Catelyn and her siblings all have. (Not that I really think that, it's just interesting to notice.)

 

 

And then this:

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce.

 

And going back to check Cat I just to make sure I'm not imagining things

In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch.

 

She thought there were no weirwoods left in the South despite there being one at the castle where she grew up. I know there's other instances of early installment weirdness in this book but I'd think there could at least be some consistency within the same PoV in the same book. Even if Hoster only recently had a weirwood planted in the godswood (which would be pointless since the Starks never came to visit), she still know about it and not think the whole South was weirwoodless, outside the Isle of Faces.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Lady S.

[benteen]

King in the North!

 

Really enjoyed this chapter.

 

I like that we do get one scene with Hoster where he's relatively lucid.  Poor bastard still won't die until the third book.  But I liked Catelyn's scene with him and wish we could have read about Robb meeting with him too.  Of course he still obsessed with marriages for his family, despite all the pain that caused him.  After Tywin, Hoster was probably the most ambitious lord when it came to marriage alliances.  It's funny that in the Animated Historical segments on the Game of Throne DVDs, the actor who plays Blackfish narrates one on House Tully and talks about not wanting to get married.  He admits afterwards though if he had married the Redwyne girl, they probably could have ended Robert's Rebellion a lot sooner.

 

I do tend to think if Robb had known about the incest sooner, he might have hooked up with Stannis.  A Robb/Stannis alliance could have been great but if Stannis tried to push the Red God on the North, the North would have pushed back something fierce.

Edited September 16, 2015 by benteen

[nksarmi]

I was just thinking about Robb/Stannis today.  Since I've always thought that Stannis was more pragmatist than zealot, I don't think he would have pushed the Red God on the North that much.  The North kept the old gods even when the seven became the accepted gods of the realm, so I think it would have stayed largely the same.  If a war of gods occurred, it would have been between the seven (and what became the Faith Militant) and Stannis.

 

Anyway, back to the Robb/Stannis - since Robb did not start out to become King of the North, I think they could have made an alliance if Stannis promised the safety of the Stark girls (which really was only Sansa, but no one knew that at the time).

[Lady S.]

In the book at least, I kinda think it's Stan's own fault that Robb didn't know about the incest since Stannis knew the whole time. Yeah, he obviously believed Cersei murdered Jon Arryn and that's why he took the same step Renly took after Robert's death of skipping town to save himself, but that's no excuse to sit out on the truth when the truth and legal rights were supposedly so precious to him, and moreover it's not a big leap to think Robert's life was in danger from Cersei if she wasn't exposed. As I recall, Ned tried to reach out to him more than once. Even if he didn't feel safe to return to King's Landing in person, his only friend was a smuggler who used to live in King's Landing so he could have had Davos secretly deliver the message. Or after Ned was arrested, Stannis must have figured out what happened there and he could have reached out to Winterfell then, explained their common cause. Instead, they had to find out about what Ned uncovered and why he was arrested with everyone else, well after his death. There's never any hint of why Stannis didn't even try to reach out to Ned or Robb, beyond petty jealousy of Ned and general tendency toward being an unsociable hermit. 

 

But since Robb doesn't have all the facts that Ned did and cared about picking the rightful king as Ned would have, I actually think the best approach would have been the wait and see idea offered by Stevron Frey. If they'd waited for the incest reveal and joined with Stannis, chances are he would have not relied on Mel and Red Rahloo so much, since Selyse was the true zealot and Stannis just wanted to win. And if he had the combined power of Winterfell and Riverrun, a number of the Stormlords would probably re-think their choice of Baratheon. However, since no one was willing to wait, the Greatjon's proposal was not a bad option for the limited information they had, if the argument of Renly vs. Stannis just wasn't going to end and Robb couldn't make a final decision without all the facts.

 

Memories come flooding back to Catelyn and she thinks about her father teaching her to ride and how she and Lysa would play at kissing with Petyr Baelish. Catelyn remembers Lysa telling her that she liked it when Petyr would put his tongue in her mouth.

 

Aw, the third hint of Lysafinger, the couple whose forbidden love truly caused the Wo5K. (Eat your hearts out, Lannister twins.)

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by Lady S.

[benteen]

Stannis was also quick to dismiss Robb as a usurper.  He just expected everyone to get in line with him instantly, which was a mistake.

[Lady S.]

Yep, so can't really fault Robb for not bending the knee to Stannis. Especially since Renly was set to take Stannis out of commission and become the last Baratheon heir, before a literal deus ex machina let Stannis kill him instead.

ETA:

The Great Jon says that Catelyn is a woman so she doesn't understand and Lord Karstark adds that Catelyn doesn't really know what it's like to want vengeance. When Karstark says that women are the 'gentle' sex, Catelyn cites Cersei Lannister as an example to show that it's nonsense to say all women are sweet and gentle.

This seems to be the common reading of that line, but I always saw it as Catelyn saying she would like vengeance if she could get her hands on Cersei. The last thing Karstark says is about a man's need for vengeance, so I think that was what she was responding to, he's saying Catelyn can't understand his need for vengeance because hers is the gentle sex. The "give me Cersei" is weird to me if Cersei was supposed to just be an example of a non-gentle lady. Why give her to Catelyn? What does Catelyn need to show him about Cersei that couldn't be otherwise obvious. Anyone trying to take Cersei would hear "I am the Queen, I'll have you killed!" right away. If the point is just to look at Cersei, there's a simpler way to say that without any bring her to me stuff. There's a similar exchange with Brienne, where she says she understands Bri's need for vengeance because she dreams of choking Cersei whenever she thinks of Ned's death. There, she was convincing Brienne that going after Stannis would be futile, and I think the same thing is going on in this scene, she'd like vengeance but doesn't believe it's likely and what's more important is keeping her remaining family safe.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

The only thing that really stuck out for me here was Catelyn briefly wondering if Robb had ever kissed Jeyne Poole. Jeyne Poole really is more of a character than I realized during my first read. I know that Catelyn doesn't think that the steward's daughter would be right for Robb but I still think it's interesting that Jeyne's name was the one to come to mind when she considered whether or not Robb had ever kissed (or had sex with) anyone. 

 

Jeyne's life could have been so different if she'd been forced to stay behind at Winterfell for some reason. I imagine too that she was probably happy to return and might have initially hoped that things would get better once she returned home only for everything to become even more hellish upon meeting Ramsay.

 

I'm looking forward to Sansa and Arya meeting again but I'm also curious to see Sansa and Jeyne meet up again. I can see Jeyne being so damaged that she ends up growing to hate her old friend. Meanwhile I can see Arya being angry with Jeyne for taking over her identity without realizing or understanding everything that Jeyne has gone through and that if she'd had it her way she never would have had to pretend to be Arya.

 

Re: Weirwoods being in the south--

 

I agree that it's odd Catelyn wouldn't realize that there are several castles and places in the south that have them (and probably more that haven't been mentioned.) Brienne even randomly finds a young one in the Crownlands, so they're definitely around just not common. Not sure if there are any in Dorne though.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Avaleigh