S02.E16: Tasting Revenge

[PinkRibbons]

NOTE: Reign airs on Wednesdays in Canada, meaning that the episodes are very often viewed a day before they have aired in the US. Therefore please be aware that this thread will almost definitely have spoilers for those who wish to wait until Thursday night to view the new episode.

 

Promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFCFSUBiWVY

[PinkRibbons]

Mislabeled Canadian Promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjjlBKuxDAg

[Artsda]

I think that was a new opening credits.

 

That was a lot to happen in an hour, and a lot of adultery/cheating. 

 

I loved Greer going strong madam in front of the entire town to prevent them man to hurt one of her girls. Plus Greer got Leith in the end! (adultery)

 

Francis is sleeping with someone. (adultery)

 

Mary's kissing and able to be close to Conde, yet Francis she can't bear to touch.  (almost adultery) Francis giving her permission to be with Conde in the castle was just stupid, so many people and ears in the castle. It's like Francis wants them to get caught, and I think Conde is right to question Francis's motives.

 

Kenna was believing and willing to dump Bash just to be Queen to Conde's brother. Now she knows it was all a plot to hurt Bash and she would just be a mistress again. I'm happy Bash walked out on her. Kenna deserves to just be a mistress to anyone, she's such a social climber only after the title.

 

Hope Bash marries someone else and then gets a title from Francis while Kenna is stuck being mistress to Conde's brother, a different King. 

 

Didn't Conde and his brother have a discussion about his wife being sick and dying? Conde doesn't seem to know she wasn't dying, but pregnant. So Conde was being lied to also by his brother. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Artsda

[brisbydog]

I know it's a CW show and that triangles are their thing. I know that as somebody closer to 50 than 15 AND with a degree in history that I should never have watched this show...but dear GOD, why can't they just settle characters with each other and tell some of the real stories of the era that are so much better than this crap they shovel at us every week? I got whiplash this week. You can't in any way trust any characters to stay true to whoever they are paired with because the next week the wheel spins and they are paired with somebody else. If Craig Parker and Megan Follows were not on this dreck I would be long gone.

 

As long as the show is sending Mary to Scotland, why don't they just kill of Francis and then cast Regbo as Darnley? It would be cool. :)

[PinkRibbons]

I feel like Francis's scene with Amelie was put in to make the audience dislike him enough to feel some sympathy for Mary. And for me it didn't work, I just felt sorrier for him by episode's end then I ever did. But I don't hate Mary, at this point, I've just come to this place of feeling she is so so stupid and naive. It's like she can't fathom anyone else's pain besides her own, including her peoples'.

 

Conde's characterization is amazingly consistent -- he's a lying snake. He should have told Mary about Elizabeth the second he had to break things off with her -- why didn't he? She'd have found out soon enough. Now he's trying to have his cake and eat it too by courting Elizabeth and trying it out with Mary, and I'm supposed to feel sympathetic for him because he's worried he's a disposable pawn? I hope Mary finds out and castrates him herself.

 

Kenna's storyline has so many holes...I feel like they rushed the whole Navarre thing and the part about her marriage troubles with Bash. I was left not believing at all that she'd ever really considered Antoine, no matter what she says. And frankly, to save her marriage she should lied to Bash or twisted the truth. She never slept with Antoine or agreed to marry him. I know Kenna is all about honesty, but she needs to learn about the mercy of white lies. She should have said that Antoine was being relentless, even going so far as to offer marriage after his impending widowhood, and that she'd heard a rumor about Jeanne's illness being anything but. Then she should have said that she invited Jeanne to embarrass Antoine and show him exactly what she thinks of him and what she's capable of in looking out for herself.

 

Lola's a sweetheart. Man I want Francis to divorce Mary and marry her, legitimizing John Philip in the process.

 

At least Greer got some. She does make an excellent Madame, although would someone please find her hairbrush for her. I wonder if Leith would have enough money and pull to get a divorce granted for Greer? She could probably get one by claiming that she didn't know she was marrying a Protestant. Castleroy dragged Greer into this, he should at least give her the mercy of letting her go. Leith is new money, he can pretty much marry who he wants right now. It probably won't hurt him to be known as having a commoner lover either, but I'd like to see Greer get a happy ending, finally. She's my favorite of Mary's ladies and has always struck me as the smartest and most morally sound (even as a Madame!).

[missbonnie]

Kenna was believing and willing to dump Bash just to be Queen to Conde's brother. Now she knows it was all a plot to hurt Bash and she would just be a mistress again. I'm happy Bash walked out on her. Kenna deserves to just be a mistress to anyone, she's such a social climber only after the title.

I think that's too good for her conniving ass, I would love to see her end up as one of Greer's girls.

Conde has been dirty from the word go.

I don't think Mary is going anywhere, I read somewhere that next season will focus on Mary, Elizabeth and Catherine primarily.

Lola's a sweetheart. Man I want Francis to divorce Mary and marry her, legitimizing John Philip in the process.

I would totally be on board with this!

Edited March 13, 2015 by missbonnie

[dirtypop90]

I agree they slid francis and Narc's niece in there to make mary's adultery look not as bad. NOPE Doesn't work for me. Mary has been having an emotional affair for months.

 

I do think the writers are attempting to show Mary as going through PTSD. We were kind of hit over the head with it in the dialogue...Conde makes mary feel "safe", Mary desires a new beginning, she's suffocating, and Lola's conversation to francis where she tells him he needs to be available for when she's ready to love again. But the execution is horrible. She just comes off as being horrible to francis and conde. Ditching francis on his b-day to cheat with his cousin, and trying to slide out of her plans to go to scotland with said cousin, even though she promised Conde and knows his head is on the line if they stay in France. And Adelaide is playing Mary in a very un-likable manner. It's very hard for me to connect with her.

 

I know people will take issue with Conde courting Elizabeth behind mary's back but it's the smartest thing he's done since being on the show. Mary is fickle. She will change her mind. They are not going to Scotland. (He needs to have a chat with Bash) I'm glad he was able to see through her b/s.

 

I don't get why they're also messing with Kenna and Bash. I was very blah about greer and leith, but I love Greer as a pimp. Glad Antoine is gone.

 

All these couples just come off so sleazy, just making out and screwing. Am I supposed to be rooting for any of them? I have no clue why any of them should be together.

Edited March 13, 2015 by dirtypop90

[HunterHunted]

This Francis Mary Conde triangle is intolerable. I DO NOT CARE! And frankly, it's making me hate Conde was slightly positive/neutral towards him when this story started.

I don't know why they are messing with Kenna and Bash. It feels pointless and unnecessary.

I am loving Greer the pimp. Hopefully, she can move out of the inn and but a hairbrush.

[redsox7819]

Can Francis just kill Conde already? Via losing his head.

 

They have been trying to make us feel sorry for Mary since a few episodes in and it is not working.  I feel bad for Francis and only Francis.

Edited March 13, 2015 by redsox7819

[blaksheba]

I liked season one Mary, but Mary has devolved into a silly, fickle idiot; one whom I can't wait to see get her comeuppance. Like others, I agree the scene with Narcisse's plain niece was to make us feel that Mary's cheating on Francis was fine, and like others, I thought that was BS.

 

I like Francis a lot. Sometimes he comes off as a bit petulant, but I think  he has many more facets to his personality. I hope he can be happy with someone else, most preferably, Lola. I liked that Francis listened to Lola and was supportive of Mary's "feelings" for Conde (whom I strongly dislike). Mary is such a dumb-dumb. Conde tells her what she wants to hear. He never fully lies, but certainly never tells her the full story. I am not sure if the writers are trying to make him an outright opportunist without the sleaze factor, like Narcisse, or a romantic hero - either way, I will never like him.

 

Greer is my girl! I like that she is learning to navigate her new life with a sense of humor and intelligence. She was not  my favorite lady while she was at he castle; I actually thought she was tres bland, but I like how the story is fleshing her out more. As for Kenna and Sebastian, I'm sorry to see that they can't just make her sensible enough to love the man to whom she is wed and not try harder to social climb. I do like that she was smart enough to do some investigation on her own with regards to King Antoine's soon-to-be widower status, but  the fact that now she and her husband may be headed towards the "separate lives" story like Mary and Francis is a bit repetitive.

 

I would love to have seen more Catherine. I like that she is in support of a union between Lola and Francis.

 

One thing that struck me with regards to infidelity was the gender bias. So, Francis can have sex with some random chick and still not be seen in a bad light, but Mary can only have a bosom-heaving make out session that has to stop prior to full on sex. I feel that the show tends to try to enforce 21st century values on certain areas, while still having traditional values while it relates to sexual freedom.

 

It could be argued that it would be out-of-character for Mary to have full-on sex with Conde whom she has had romantic feelings for almost a year (?) in show time, but its like the writers feel that despite the fact that the Mary they depict is about being heard and valued as a person; having decision-making rights despite being a woman; brazenly declaring her love for another to her husband; baring her arms in anachronistic fashions,  said woman must be seen as somewhat chaste. So despite that she made sure in about 4 or 5 episodes, including this one that they are free to do whatever and whomever they please, she is still relegated to passionate kisses, but not actual sex.

[dirtypop90]

It could be argued that it would be out-of-character for Mary to have full-on sex with Conde whom she has had romantic feelings for almost a year (?) in show time, but its like the writers feel that despite the fact that the Mary they depict is about being heard and valued as a person; having decision-making rights despite being a woman; brazenly declaring her love for another to her husband; baring her arms in anachronistic fashions,  said woman must be seen as somewhat chaste. So despite that she made sure in about 4 or 5 episodes, including this one that they are free to do whatever and whomever they please, she is still relegated to passionate kisses, but not actual sex.

 

I don't think that much time has passed, since francis and lola's baby is still under a year old. The rape happened at most a couple months ago and she had no  feelings for Conde prior to. The writers are trying to show her "feelings" for conde are really a symptom of her PTSD. And I think it didn't go any further because that's all she's comfortable with at the moment because she was just raped. During their makeout session, when Conde started to kiss her neck, they showed Mary's face with a dead pan expression. So mary still has problems with intimacy, which is also why this whole affair doesn't make a lot of sense. I believe they're trying to show that she thinks Conde can help her get over what happened to her in time, but she's wrong.

 

However, as I said above, I think their execution of this s/l is poor.

Edited March 13, 2015 by dirtypop90

[treeofdreams]

 

One thing that struck me with regards to infidelity was the gender bias. So, Francis can have sex with some random chick and still not be seen in a bad light, but Mary can only have a bosom-heaving make out session that has to stop prior to full on sex. I feel that the show tends to try to enforce 21st century values on certain areas, while still having traditional values while it relates to sexual freedom.

 

This isn't about gender bias.  Mary is a Queen, and her sex life is about succession to the throne.  If she has sex with someone other than her husband the King, and gets pregnant, the question of the paternity of the heir will always be there.

[dirtypop90]

This isn't about gender bias.  Mary is a Queen, and her sex life is about succession to the throne.  If she has sex with someone other than her husband the King, and gets pregnant, the question of the paternity of the heir will always be there.

 

honestly, even if mary and conde don't have sex, if anyone gets a whiff of their affair, and she goes back to francis and gets pregnant soon after, the question of the paternity of the heir will be there. Based on the promo, Catherine finds out about the affair, and that's something she can use to destroy Mary and this alliance with, now or in the future. Regardless of how far it goes, she's fooling around with a protestant leader, catholic nobles will call for her head if this news "leaks"

Edited March 13, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Petunia846]

I feel like I don't even know who any of these people are any more. My eyes feel sore from rolling them so hard. They're certainly trying to make it less clear cut who the bad "guy" is in Mary and Francis' relationship by having him sleep with that girl, but it didn't work. I was rooting for him to go for it and then wanted to hug him when he felt bad about it afterwards (and yet was also so polite to her).

[Eolivet]

I do think the writers are attempting to show Mary as going through PTSD. We were kind of hit over the head with it in the dialogue...Conde makes mary feel "safe", Mary desires a new beginning, she's suffocating, and Lola's conversation to francis where she tells him he needs to be available for when she's ready to love again. But the execution is horrible.

 

[snip]

 

I know people will take issue with Conde courting Elizabeth behind mary's back but it's the smartest thing he's done since being on the show. Mary is fickle. She will change her mind. They are not going to Scotland. (He needs to have a chat with Bash) I'm glad he was able to see through her b/s.

 

I actually really liked this episode because for the first time, I understood what they were trying to do with these storylines. I completely agree that the execution has been poor, and if they had emphasized this "Conde = safe, Francis = unsafe" theme, it would've been so much easier to understand. Maybe the difference was the Lola scenes, or even the Antoine scene providing context. They needed a voice of reason, because the three players involved were far too emotionally invested to make them reliable narrators about anything that happened.

 

For the first time, I understood from textual evidence, without me having to fanwank it or pretend like I thought this is what the writers wanted to do, that Mary's solution to getting past her trauma is to burn down her life and start over. It was just so clumsily done before -- especially in light of last episode and Mary's "I want to go be my own person!" speech. What she really means is "I want a new life." This story becomes infinitely less about bad judgment and infinitely more a sad situation for all involved.

 

But I feel like, for once, this was the show listening to some of what fans have been saying: that this makes no sense and needs an explanation. I found Mary's lack of willingness to leave France now that Francis has given her and Conde permission very telling. She's not as sure as she's been letting on, as Lola pointed out. If she was really all about a "new life," she'd have peaced out to Scotland already. Antoine and Lola were right: Mary still loves Francis, and would always have left Conde once she felt "healed" again. And finally, Conde knows this.

 

If I had to hazard a guess at the direction of the writing, I would guess they were taken aback by the strong reaction to the rape, and so their response was "let's not mention it that much" and they tried to distract the audience with the Mary/Conde story instead (like "All that gloom is over! Focus on the pretty!"). Since the story made some viewers hate a rape victim (oops), they're now going back to addressing the rape or at least Mary's resulting trauma (via the "safe"/"unsafe" dichotomy) to make her more sympathetic again.

 

Crazy way to write a show, but I guess it works for them. And it worked for me: finally, I understood what the heck I was watching and the show tried to explain reasons for the characters' behavior other than "because!" Gotta love that Greek chorus named Lola and Antoine.

 

And I really liked the Bash/Kenna story, too. It was awful to watch, but I was glad they addressed that some people need a certain lifestyle to be happy. It kind of reminded me of Mary and Matthew's first season story on Downton Abbey. I liked that Kenna was honest. I have a feeling she'll change her mind and decide love is enough -- but it's nice to see the show remember she was Lady Kenna, and as such, she was used to the finer things in life. And when confronted with that lifestyle again, it would've been a very tempting offer, regardless of love.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Eolivet

[Andromeda]

I know it's a CW show and that triangles are their thing. I know that as somebody closer to 50 than 15 AND with a degree in history that I should never have watched this show...but dear GOD, why can't they just settle characters with each other and tell some of the real stories of the era that are so much better than this crap they shovel at us every week? I got whiplash this week. You can't in any way trust any characters to stay true to whoever they are paired with because the next week the wheel spins and they are paired with somebody else. If Craig Parker and Megan Follows were not on this dreck I would be long gone.

 

As long as the show is sending Mary to Scotland, why don't they just kill of Francis and then cast Regbo as Darnley? It would be cool. :)

I know! I'm also closer to 50 than 15, and a fan of Elizabethan-era history, and all I see in this show are a bunch of teenagers acting like they're in high school, not rulers of countries. They treat their marriages like "going steady" -- happy for a few months, until they grow bored, then try to find someone else.

 

Mary, especially, is utterly ridiculous. No queen would be expecting she could "live separate lives" (as in have lovers) and expect her king (who still has no heir) to say "Sure!" and not expect she could lose her head. She's risking the life of any man she's with. Did she not hear what happened to Anne Boleyn? She's so self-centered and such a ninny. Oh, yeah,the rape. I know it was an awful thing that happened to her, but that doesn't excuse her odd 21st-century need for "me time" and "self actualization" or whatever silly reasoning is they're giving us for her behavior. She never puts her country or her people first. (In the first season she at least gave that idea lip service. Where'd that Mary go?)

 

I wish Elizabeth -- who never succumbed to pressure to marry, and held her own with other world leaders (more than held her own!) -- would invade Scotland just when Mary arrives. Then she could imprison her....  ; )

 

I need more Katherine. She rocks. 

 

Lola's a sweetheart. Man I want Francis to divorce Mary and marry her, legitimizing John Philip in the process.

You and me, both. She's like the only adult in the room. Mary definitely doesn't deserve as good a friend as she's been. Edited March 15, 2015 by Andromeda