rubyred February 12, 2015 Share February 12, 2015 Paige isn't at this point intended for any honeypots. The point with her (and Jared etc.) was for her to just live her regular American life and get a job in a good place. Jared was going to be an engineer, so might have gotten a job with access to top secret technology, for instance. Paige could work at some government agency. They can do this because they can pass a background check and would get the education the KGB thought it was best for them to get once they're adults. Then they just sit in their job and pass info to the KGB. I get that but they're talking about her as if they plan to start indoctrinate her now, so that she's ready and willing when she gets this hypothetical government job. How do they plan to lure her to their side? Link to comment
sistermagpie February 12, 2015 Share February 12, 2015 I get that but they're talking about her as if they plan to start indoctrinate her now, so that she's ready and willing when she gets this hypothetical government job. How do they plan to lure her to their side? Answering in the Paige thread... Link to comment
sistermagpie February 12, 2015 Share February 12, 2015 (edited) Presumably Hans is going to get some of that old time religion or something, to be the person to approach Paige, because otherwise there is no way that Elizabeth and Phillip are anything other than burned to the ground if Paige tries to opt out. No, it's Philip and Elizabeth who have to approach Paige. That's the KGB's idea of solving the Jared thing. They soften her to the idea of the Soviet cause and then they reveal to her that they're really Russian agents. And then--after that, like maybe years after that--they tell her she ought to join too. That's how Claudia explained it. Whether or not they follow that exact plan step one is Philip and Elizabeth revealing their true selves. Nobody's recruiting Paige. It's about Philip and Elizabeth telling her "who she really is." If Hans isn't being used to recruit Paige, there has to be some reason he's being featured so much. Maybe he'll be used as the babysitter lure? Pretty sure Philip will be the babysitter lure. Hans is just another agent that Elizabeth's mentoring. He can be used for all sorts of things and doesn't have to be Paige related at all (at least not plotwise--he can always be a parallel for Elizabeth). Elizabeth's trying to get Paige in by indoctrinating her with correct beliefs from her parents, not competing with the church's "cute boys singing about Jesus." She wants a real believer. Edited February 12, 2015 by sistermagpie Link to comment
chocolatine February 12, 2015 Share February 12, 2015 If Hans isn't being used to recruit Paige, there has to be some reason he's being featured so much. Maybe he'll be used as the babysitter lure? Hans is just another agent that Elizabeth's mentoring. He can be used for all sorts of things and doesn't have to be Paige related at all (at least not plotwise--he can always be a parallel for Elizabeth). He mentioned having to TA a class, so he might be doing some "campus recruiting". 1 Link to comment
gwhh February 12, 2015 Share February 12, 2015 (edited) Does anyone else think Elizabeth is starting to see that Philip is right about Paige and her not becoming a spy? Lets be honest, what if she goes along with the program, just to make mom and dad happy and with the idea to convert them into Jesus lovers! And than realizes she cannot convert them into God fearing people and than runs off to the FBI or even worst Christina Science Monitor magazine HQ! Unlike the CIA, you never leave the KGB just ask Putin!! Edited February 13, 2015 by gwhh 1 Link to comment
rue721 February 13, 2015 Share February 13, 2015 I do think it's funny, though, that even Philip, like Elizabeth, refers to Paige 'growing up here' as her not being able to handle the kind of stuff they do as opposed to loving her country. With regard to the "patriotism problem": Are we sure they'd tell her that she'd be spying for the KGB? Wouldn't it be easier to tell her she's spying for the Americans or just helping the Americans somehow? I mean, she already is anti-war. She would maybe be willing to do something to help "end" the war in Afghanistan if only she knew what to do. They could make her think that she's helping them do that, while using her information for the Soviets' cause. When that CIA woman in the season opener said that her daughter wanted to follow in her footsteps, it got me thinking that maybe the better way to use Paige would be for Elizabeth and Philip to "reveal" that they're American spies, and see if she'd be willing to help them in their work then. Or honestly, they could tell her they're working for whatever cause they think she's most likely to support, if she's not actually that patriotic about the US, either. (Which is why I bring up the anti-war thing). Martha thinks it's a good idea to foster a child in her one-bedroom apartment, with her working full-time and her husband there only once a week? If only she knew that every time she says stupid shit like that to "Clark" she hastens her own demise. I thought that Philip looked genuinely touched when she said that it only seemed right for them to share their plenty with someone who didn't have any. That's also a fundamentally communist sentiment, and while I agree with the people who have said that Philip is a Russian rather than a Soviet, it still isn't ~nothing~ to hear that coming out of an American woman's mouth, imo. I think he *is* going to have to kill Martha soon, but I do think that her saying things like that make him think it's a shame. Martha's silly and irritating, but she's also actually a pretty good person. I wonder if Martha/Clark is somehow going to parallel Annalise/Yousaf -- even more than it already does. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie February 13, 2015 Share February 13, 2015 (edited) I mean, she already is anti-war. She would maybe be willing to do something to help "end" the war in Afghanistan if only she knew what to do. They could make her think that she's helping them do that, while using her information for the Soviets' cause. I think they've made it clear, though, that they're talking about telling them the truth. That's what Elizabeth wants. Plus if they were doing this they'd be using Paige and playing her for a fool years from now when she was an adult. She's probably too smart to keep falling for it and she's not useful until she's in some job with security clearance. If she'd be upset to learn she's been lied to at 14, imagine finding out you've been lied to and your parents have you unwittingly committing treason. I thought that Philip looked genuinely touched when she said that it only seemed right for them to share their plenty with someone who didn't have any. That's also a fundamentally communist sentiment, and while I agree with the people who have said that Philip is a Russian rather than a Soviet, it still isn't ~nothing~ to hear that coming out of an American woman's mouth, imo. I had that same thought about that line of Martha's. It was a nice contrast to some of the other things said about parents. Elizabeth had complained about Americans having too much stuff, and her presumably rolling her eyes at the open house when the woman says 'we" buy our parents whatever they want--plus Elizabeth worrying that a necklace and a ten speed would be too much. Then there's Martha who talks about it in terms of "we have so much, we should share it with a child in need" which is a much nicer way of thinking of it. The sharing made me think of Communism too--and made me wonder if Philip might identify with the child in that case. If so, he might actually feel that Martha put something he'd thought into words for the first time as a parent. Edited February 13, 2015 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
Umbelina February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 https://www.facebook.com/TheAmericans There are a few good links on this page, in this one, the comments kind of made me put something together. Will Paige have a choice? Basically the commenters are saying that no way in hell would the KGB have Elizabeth or Philip recruit page, or out themselves. A 4th party would do the recruiting, and only after Paige was "all in" would Liz or Phil be permitted to say "Us too! Cool!" I never thought of that, but it does make perfect sense, and duh, that's why the hot hunk Elizabeth is training is on the show. No doubt he will be the one to "recruit/seduce Paige." I bet that would seriously piss of her parents too, for similar and different reasons. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) Whatever the commenters think, the show's said flat out that they tell Paige who they are and THEY get her ready. Which seems more in line with the little we know about the reality anyway. More importantly Elizabeth would be disgusted at the idea that her daughter is doing it for the cute boy and Philip on the warpath for that manipulation. Just waiting to see if she can be recruited by a random person is safer I'm but also makes her parents irrelevant. The Centre thinks her parents have an edge here. If it's about the cute boy Paige can be anybody.Re: the dentists, it's not that hard for the FBI to put out a call for all dentists to help. Like Stan said, people love to cooperate. Edited February 14, 2015 by sistermagpie Link to comment
Umbelina February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 I think Elizabeth expects to be the one to tell Paige, but realistically, there is no way the KGB would let her or Philip do that. The want them to "groom her" to be ready for the pitch. That way, Paige says no? Mom and Dad's covers are still intact, no need to kill Paige. So, yeah, it does make sense. I don't think it's dawned on Elizabeth yet though, not sure of Philip. 1 Link to comment
PinkRibbons February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) But the Centre already tried that with Jared? His parents refused to tell him about themselves and they sent in a third party to recruit him. He found out about his folks from Kate and that made him feel even more betrayed. The Centre is going with letting Paige's parents talk to her because they can be around to manage the fallout that comes with her having to reorient her entire look on her life until now. Even if she takes it badly, they can probably still convince her to not blow their cover (she doesn't strike me as the type to willingly have her parents killed or incarcerated -- her relationship with Elizabeth is strained but functioning, and despite the rough parts she clearly adores Philip). Plus, unlike Jared she won't know how to kill anyone yet. The producers have mentioned before that they're interested in the fallout that comes from someone being lied to consistently for a long time. Paige will have her world turned upside down, but she might surprise even her parents. She could completely freak out about how they've lied to her her whole life, but then she could also express relief that her suspicions aren't baseless and take any attitude from apathetic to completely on-board. Edited February 14, 2015 by PinkRibbons 1 Link to comment
rue721 February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 I never thought of that, but it does make perfect sense, and duh, that's why the hot hunk Elizabeth is training is on the show. No doubt he will be the one to "recruit/seduce Paige." I bet that would seriously piss of her parents too, for similar and different reasons. I don't think they're going to go the honeytrap route with Paige. Gabriel asked Elizabeth if Paige had any boyfriends yet, and Elizabeth said no. I think that Gabriel asked that question because he was testing the waters to see if Paige was susceptible to boys, and apparently, she's not. She's an idealist rather than a romantic. So I think they're going to go the ideology route with her -- win her over by making their ideology very seductive, rather than by having her seduced by a man. So I actually think that Elizabeth is probably the right woman for the job. It's interesting to me how Philip seems to care a lot more about the physical -- physical dangers, physical comforts. The way to win over Philip is probably to convince him that Paige's life will be (physically) more comfortable and safer if she's "with" the Soviets than if she's not. I don't know how they could possibly do that, but...I guess that's Gabriel's problem to solve. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) Jared's parents said "No way!" so the KGB went behind their backs. Then they compounded that error by having Sexy Spy seduce him, and turn him, partly by discrediting his lying parents. They won't make that mistake again. Think about it, it makes sense for them to groom her for the spy that approaches her, then later, once she's proven herself, for that spy to tell suggest she tells her parents. Frankly, I think the KGB might prefer it be compartmentalized and for Paige to never know about her parents involvement. That would be a real trip. Neither Elizabeth, nor Philip would get what they want. Elizabeth has all of the dreams of sharing their Russian patriotism and courage together, but we don't know if Gabriel is just stringing her along. It's too big a risk for a hormonal teenager to know her parents are enemies of the USA. What if she is suddenly crushing on a red white and blue patriot football team captain in a year or two? To protect Philip and Elizabeth, I think the KGB will cut them right out of the actual approach to join, at the very least, perhaps then prohibit them from telling Paige at all, "until she's older." Really, "until we truly trust her." Elizabeth was recruited young, but she wasn't sent into enemy territory for a long time. Paige is already there. Edited February 14, 2015 by Umbelina 2 Link to comment
gwhh February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 I could see Hans or some else doing the recurring for pagie( good tradecraft there). But if the KGB did that without the parents OK. Phillip, would go kill the recruiter and a (few other guys just for good measure) without asking his wife or even thinking about! Phillips the more impulsiev of the two. And elizabeth would be right there backing him up! Than he call the KGB and tell them where to find the bodies and tell them something like. Look what you made me do! Don't make me do it again! Link to comment
Umbelina February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) I think they would tell Elizabeth and Philip that Paige was about to be recruited, so get ready to be extra supportive IN CASE she told them something, and of course, to report back whatever Paige might tell them. I don't think the KGB will blindside P & E, they might get the heads up that it's about to happen. It just makes absolutely no sense that the KGB would let Philip or Elizabeth expose themselves, and that explains why hunky trainee is on the show this season. It all fits. I agree, Philip will be furious, he already is though. Elizabeth is about to join him in that I think, because I really believe she thinks they want her to do it, and she's looking forward to her first "real" talks with her daughter. DENIED. Edited February 14, 2015 by Umbelina 2 Link to comment
albaniantv February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 Agree HunkyTrainee and Paige are destined to do something together--whether it is romance or spycraft or both, it will be explosive. I also suspect Paige will follow Philip to Martha's at some point since she believes he is having an affair. I know it's impossible that he wouldn't know she was following him, so maybe somehow Paige is in Martha's part of town and sees Disguised Dad going in or out a door. If Henry can figure out how to get a swimsuit photo of Sexy Neighbor, Paige surely has enough sleuthing skills to surprise Dad. Not sure how Hunky fits into this scenario but I bet he does. 2 Link to comment
shura February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 I also suspect Paige will follow Philip to Martha's at some point since she believes he is having an affair. I know it's impossible that he wouldn't know she was following him, so maybe somehow Paige is in Martha's part of town and sees Disguised Dad going in or out a door. And then, when Paige confronts Philip and Martha catches them together, Philip will be like "Honey, look, I've found us that foster kid you were asking about!" 7 Link to comment
sistermagpie February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) Frankly, I think the KGB might prefer it be compartmentalized and for Paige to never know about her parents involvement. That would be a real trip. Neither Elizabeth, nor Philip would get what they want. The KGB has zero interest in Paige as a recruit without her parents--really, why would they? There is nothing whatsoever about this girl that makes her stand out to the KGB as herself, if they've even looked at her personally. Paige Jennings, churchgoer against nuclear arms, is of no more interest to the KGB than the frizzy haired boy she smiles at at church or Kelly from the bus. The point of the program is that the KGB is trying to see if they can leverage the relationship they've created between their agents and these young American citizens by having them convince them to pass info to the KGB from a high security job when they're adults. Otherwise Paige is just a random middle class teenager who's no more or less likely to be recruited and no more or less likely to make a good spy. Agree HunkyTrainee and Paige are destined to do something together--whether it is romance or spycraft or both, it will be explosive. I think Hans/Paige is like Philip/Kate. People are conditioned on TV to assume an attractive young lead must be a love interest for somebody. Elizabeth meets with Hans in a wig to disguise her identity and seems to be training him to be an agent the way she would have trained Gregory and Philip would have trained Charles and Emmett would have trained Fred. I'd be surprised if she'd be sending him against her daughter. The first thing P&E made clear about this was that they didn't want anybody from the Centre interfering with Paige since this was up to them. The two of them might talk to Gabriel about it but encouraging other agents to get involved with their daughter--particularly romantically--is them using the Jared fiasco as a guide. They both value their relationship with her as parents. Even Hans himself--a grown man who's obviously had a lot of experience under his belt already--is told by Elizabeth that it takes a long time to be ready. Paige shouldn't be ready for spycraft anything for years. Elizabeth also reminded us last week of the kind of work Paige is needed for, which is not even the type of thing grad student Hans seems to be doing. She's supposed to be like Fred, only a Fred who was already planning to spy when he got his job. Of course, Fred still ended up dead, which is what Philip was talking about when he reminded Elizabeth that things always change. Paige is supposed to just sit in her job and pass files like Martha's unwittingly doing for Clark, but of course the KGB might start asking her to take more risks and she might wind up having to do something terrible to protect herself or get shot. Remember one of the thing main things the producers thought about when creating the show was "the talk" that CIA agents have with their kids at a certain age when they reveal what they really do for a living. That's the central interest they have in this scenario. Not American teenagers being tapped by the KGB for secret spywork. I would've preferred that they had tried to contact "their dentist" or any shadowy dentist but couldn't get a hold of him and Philip was "forced" to do it himself. Given we saw Elizabeth have surgery performed by "their surgeon", it was odd that they had no dentist at all. While I do see ways they could have found somebody to pull the tooth in secret, it makes sense to me they wouldn't have a dentist on retainer the way they would a surgeon. The latter deals with emergency injuries that could be fatal. Tooth issues give you time to deal with it yourself--and usually that's what they'd do by just going to a regular dentist. The KGB might seem to be "everywhere" from our pov because we see them rushing into action when needed, but what we're usually seeing them do is deal with life or death situations an agent would be in danger in that they could predict. It's possible they have an amazingly clever network for stuff they deal with all the time but are at a loss for things that stray even a little from the beaten path. Elizabeth no doubt could have gone to Gabriel and asked him to find a dentist for her, but it's also IC for Elizabeth to not want to ask about that. Edited February 14, 2015 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
stillshimpy February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) I agree, Philip will be furious, he already is though. Elizabeth is about to join him in that I think, because I really believe she thinks they want her to do it, and she's looking forward to her first "real" talks with her daughter.DENIED. That's what I keep thinking. Elizabeth envisions herself bringing Paige into the fold and finally -- excuse the silly phrasing, please -- sharing her truth. I do know what Claudia told Elizabeth, by the way, it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever that Elizabeth and Phillip would believe they could tell Paige who they are....and she still "gets a choice"....because at that point if she says "no, are you insane?" ....their incredibly intricate and long running cover is blown. When they say they've "learned from the mistakes" with Jared, I really don't think that means that Elizabeth or Phillip gets to open the arms of Mother Russia for her. Rather that they will try to subtly introduce concepts to her....someone else will approach her with Elizabeth and Phillip's full knowledge, they'll encourage the friendship (I do not think that Paige will be sexually seduced, just ideologically and it still makes sense to have an attractive person do that) ...the question will be posed and THEN if Paige says "yes" her parents are revealed to her. It seems clear that Elizabeth believes she will get to be the person who approaches Paige, but that just doesn't make any kind of sane sense as a plan. Although Elizabeth's more than vaguely triumphant look to Phillip as Paige read the newspaper was at least a little funny in how subtle it wasn't. "SEE! She's INTERESTED IN POLITICS!" I think Elizabeth is so blinded by her politics that she can't envision Paige observing the news and thinking "The Soviets are dangerous and deluded, yikes" ....she just thinks Paige will see the same things she has. Elizabeth has a huge blind spot about her kids. She talks about getting a ten speed or a necklace like that in some way means that Paige won't be lured in by material things. There's just no "lure" to it really though. That's just been Paige's world and it's not like they are living in a one bathroom home and sharing the field's bounty with all their neighbors. How the hell do you convince someone that "one for all and all for one!" is the political way to go when her family has formed NO attachments to anything or anyone outside of their home for her entire life? The KGB has zero interest in Paige as a recruit without her parents--really, why would they? I absolutely agree, but it doesn't then follow that it makes sense for Elizabeth and Phillip to approach her first, but rather to work with her AFTER she's said yes to someone that presumably won't blow Phillip and Elizabeth's cover sky high if Paige tries to opt out. Besides, there is something beyond all of that which should give all of the participants in that plan pause: The Center actively discourages emotional attachments between their agents, because it puts them at risk. Elizabeth and Phillip have a hard enough time not blowing their operations for one another and their handlers actually seem aware of that. It sort of baffles me that they would think "So risk their child, because that's so likely to improve their detachment!" Edited February 14, 2015 by stillshimpy 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) When they say they've "learned from the mistakes" with Jared, I really don't think that means that Elizabeth or Phillip gets to open the arms of Mother Russia for her. Rather that they will try to subtly introduce concepts to her....someone else will approach her with Elizabeth and Phillip's full knowledge, they'll encourage the friendship (I do not think that Paige will be sexually seduced, just ideologically and it still makes sense to have an attractive person do that) ...the question will be posed and THEN if Paige says "yes" her parents are revealed to her. I don't see how you can interpret Claudia's words any other way. Elizabeth doesn't just *think* she gets to tell Paige the truth, she's been ordered in no uncertain terms to tell her the truth. That's the thing she's supposed to do. Elizabeth softening her up to the idea ideologically is Elizabeth taking the first steps to do that, but the "getting her ready" to be brought into the KGB is supposed to come after that. Claudia said to tell her who they were--soon. Philip's focused more on the reasons the KGB want them to tell--getting her to work for them. But he, too, knows that what he's putting off is telling her the truth of their identity. The parent/child relationship is presumably also supposed to be guarding them against Paige telling. Edited February 14, 2015 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
stillshimpy February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) I don't see how you can interpret Claudia's words any other way. I'm not interpreting it differently than you are, sistermagpie I just don't believe that's the way they will actually enact the plan because it's so fully daft for Elizabeth to believe that there is then a way for Paige to say "No". There isn't one. It's requiring a lot of suspension of disbelief for me to buy that either Phillip or Elizabeth could think for a moment that there is, but I'm willing to bet Phillip already gets that part. Elizabeth is blinded by her Zeal. Also, Claudia has a history of lying, so that's part of it too. Gabriel hasn't outlined the "take her aside, tell her who you really are" ....and since that makes no sense at all as a workable plan, I think there has to be a step before Elizabeth and Phillip get to tell her who they are. If there isn't, what in the world do they do if Paige turns them down? Blow her head off? Abandon her and go on the run or return to Russia? There is no space for No in Claudia's alleged plan. The parent/child relationship is presumably also supposed to be guarding them against Paige telling. That's such a huge risk that I just don't see The Center taking it. These are the same people who had Elizabeth reporting on Phillip for years. They don't seem to trust emotional connection and that makes sense. It isn't even that Paige would not keep their secret, it's that not everyone is capable of keeping giant secrets about espionage. So the risk that she'd reveal who they are even without a giant whistle blowing is pretty huge. Edited February 14, 2015 by stillshimpy 2 Link to comment
stillshimpy February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) But if she tells Elizabeth to tell Paige the truth why wouldn't Elizabeth tell the truth? They can hardly blame it on Elizabeth if she didn't know she was lying and did what she said. But they are also working with Gabriel about what they are doing and Elizabeth and (to a lesser extent, I believe) Phillip still think that there is some choice or time still in the offing to do this, this isn't something that is supposed to happen imminently or even in any concrete manner. Right now Elizabeth is reporting everything to Gabriel and I don't think she's supposed to be the person who makes the call as to when Paige gets told. Gabriel has pretty specifically led Phillip to believe they will not act without Phillip's approval. So the "you will tell her!" plan is already not in play right now. Also, again even if it still remains "Elizabeth, sit Paige down for the Come to Not!Jesus talk. Tuesday. The 7th." that doesn't mean there isn't a plan to prepare her on Monday the 6th. Sunday the 5th. Etc. It doesn't make it the first step even if it is an intended one. But mostly I just don't believe that it will happen that way because it so ....dumb. It's a dumb plan. So whereas that might be the plan, I'm rejecting it as the full plan due to my perception of its stupidity. ETA: Another part is that Claudia's "I do declare this to be so...." announcement occurred before Phillip's "Do this and we're out..." message, so that's another reason I don't take Claudia's outline as gospel. If that was the plan, then they still have a few Phillip shaped hurdles to clear....so hopefully they changed that rather shortsighted plan. Edited February 14, 2015 by stillshimpy 1 Link to comment
Umbelina February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) The Centre already took this risk once with Jared. They didn't just recruit him into the KGB, they told him his parents' secret to recruit him--and he didn't tell. So the don't seem to see that as an unriskable thing. Yeah, Jared didn't tell, he just killed them, and the KGB lost two deeply embedded agents. The Jared story is very different, and also a cautionary tale for the KGB. They will be more careful with Paige because they learned from their Jared mistakes. 1. They ordered his parents to tell him and recruit him. 2. They vehemently said NO! 3. The KGB went behind the parents back with Sexy Spy who recruited/seduced him, and, to secure his allegiance to HER and away from loving his parents, drove home how they didn't respect him, obviously thought he was immature, and oh by the way, have lied to you every day of your life, and don't think you are capable of being a spy. With Paige, it makes absolutely no sense that they would expose Philip and Elizabeth's real job to a hormonal teenager. What if she goes to a kegger and drunkenly spills information? What about all that "first love, tell each other everything, because obviously our love will last forever" stuff? The KGB may underestimate the differences in child discipline when the child doesn't live in a totalitarian state, but they aren't completely blind to how emotional teenagers can be. They tried to use that emotion to recruit Jared. It just makes no sense that the KGB would take that kind of gamble. Not until they evaluate Paige, which will mean her parents spying on her and reporting back about her. Someone else has to approach her to maintain their safety. This time they won't try to turn the child against the parents, because that was a disaster. They will let the parents know, lead Elizabeth on to the glories of "getting real" with her daughter, and then delay delay delay that talk Elizabeth's dreaming of, until the KGB is damn sure Paige is in so deep she won't rat out her parents in horror, or decide to kill them, as Jared did. Elizabeth's trainee is just a bit too convenient to not be the one the KGB will use for Paige. Storytelling 101 there, not so much KGB. As for Claudia? She's a senior spy, she lies. All spies lie, and do it well, it's part of the gig. It may have just been the KGB's way of softening up Elizabeth and Philip for the more elaborate plan they were forming. All Gabe is talking about is preparing Paige, and asking about progress reports. In truth, he may be grooming Philip and Elizabeth to accept that their daughter WILL spy for mother Russia, simply by pretending they will be more involved with that then they think, or sooner than they think. Of course I could be wrong, but if I am, this show will lose all credibility to me, because it would be beyond boneheaded for the KGB to do that, especially after the Jared fiasco. ETA True, Paige isn't valuable to the KGB without her parents. Eventually I'm sure the KGB plans to reveal all to Paige. AFTER they trust her, and she's grown a bit, or in too deep to get out. Edited February 14, 2015 by Umbelina Link to comment
PinkRibbons February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 I don't remember it being explicitly told that Kate gave Jared such a damaging portrait of his parents. Frankly, why would she? Jared would work best with his parents, not as a lone spy disconnected from them. I suspect it was just that Kate told him the simple truth and he then processed it in a way no one anticipated. I don't think Kate ever knew that Jared killed his parents, for all he was so in love with her. She seemed just as frightened as everyone else over Larrick and anyone else who could have been the possible culprit. She was a trained field agent; if she had spent so much time pounding into his head how his parents betrayed him, she still might have realized how toxic his feelings for them had gotten and tried to do some damage control. And if she couldn't do anything before the murders, she should have suspected Jared very quickly and put the KGB on alert, because that is the kind of crazy you do not want in your employ. Link to comment
Umbelina February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 Watch Jared's death scene. It's all there. With very minor "reading between the lines." I don't think anyone in the KGB thought, or even considered, that Jared would react that way. Including Sexy Spy. They were undoubtedly shocked as hell. That's why I see them being more cautious with Paige. They don't want any more shockers. It's also why Jared's story then is very tied to Paige's story NOW, and in upcoming episodes. It's pretty hard to discuss one, when the specter of the only other "child of spies being recruited" ended so badly. Link to comment
sistermagpie February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) Jareds's death scene tells us what he thought, not necessarily what Kate told him. Presumably the idea was that they would present him to them as wanting to join the cause with them. We know at the very least that they didn't tell him they were wrong to lie to him since he too was told to lie and did so. She could have just said they didn't think he was old enough yet and they did. Their response to what happened seems to have been to not let the parents say no. If they're just telLing the Jennings they have to soften her up to the cause and be ready to smile when Paige joins up why wouldn't they just say that? There's a lot of stuff going on in the spy story for Hans without him having to be with Paige. Anything is possible, but we've had plenty of relationships with agents that didn't come into the domestic stuff. It just seems to undercut the whole angst about them telling Paige if Elizabeth sends inappropriately aged SA pretty boy to so it in his stone wash jeans. Also now that agent knows her prime identist and daughter, anot honor previously only explicitly given to Gregory. As for Claudia lying, obviously Claudia can and might lie about lots of things, but an order is an order. You can't lie to agents by telling them to do something to hide that they're not allowed to do that thing. They do what they're told. They could come to Gabriel tomorrow and tell him they told Paige everything because they were told to do it. What's he going to say to that? Whether or not the KGB seems stupid to us for telling Paige, the two agents don't think it's impossible, and this is what was done in real life. Edited February 14, 2015 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
Umbelina February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) Whether or not the KGB seems stupid to us for telling Paige, the two agents don't think it's impossible, and this is what was done in real life. Where did you hear this was done in real life? That would be a fascinating story, and I want to read it! Anyway, we shall see. Gabriel doesn't seem to be pushing them to tell Paige. That may have just been their first gambit. I think the two agents are lying about the plan, not that they believe the plan, as stated so far, is what they really want. I think it's a just lure for Elizabeth. ETA, I do think they will tell her though, just not before she's recruited, perhaps against orders, the scenes would be too good to pass up. First the angst of Elizabeth's thwarted dreams, and the whole pretending not to know stuff. Also, even though Jared's death scenes were packed with exposition, no, he didn't spell out how he was being fooled. That's what I saw and felt while watching it, and how OTT his anger was, and how proud he was that he was a spy, and a man, and loved by Sexy Spy, and how much he hated his parents. Edited February 14, 2015 by Umbelina Link to comment
Umbelina February 15, 2015 Share February 15, 2015 I'd settle for one link. I've read a ton of spy stuff, kind of a favorite of mine, and I've never heard about embedded spies bringing their children into it, let alone it being a thing with the KBG or any intelligence service. Sounds fascinating. Link to comment
Umbelina February 15, 2015 Share February 15, 2015 Cool, he was twenty though, so we don't know when they recruited him. 14 is just too young to be safe I think. Taking the rest to the "real life spies" thread. Link to comment
maraleia February 15, 2015 Share February 15, 2015 Talk about the possible recruitment of Paige into the KGB, Jared and other Center directives here. Link to comment
sistermagpie February 15, 2015 Share February 15, 2015 Also, even though Jared's death scenes were packed with exposition, no, he didn't spell out how he was being fooled. That's what I saw and felt while watching it, and how OTT his anger was, and how proud he was that he was a spy, and a man, and loved by Sexy Spy, and how much he hated his parents. That's what I got too--I just figured it was just an unintended side effect of them encouraging him to be a good agent and impress his parents with his commitment. Which is what he did--he decided he was a better KGB agent than they were, then crapped all over the operation by murdering two valuable operatives all as part of his fantasy that he was the best superspy. He showed them! I do think they had to be subtly getting him to switch his allegiance to them rather than his parents--not in every way, but in a way that impressed on his parents--or reminded them--that he was part of the cause more than their son. But I don't know if that came out of Kate encouraging him to *personally* resent his parents for lying or thinking of him as a child. I think agents on the ground--like Kate--might see that as counterproductive. So I could believe that she just presented it as something his parents didn't think he was yet ready for but Jared should show them he was ready, without being aware of the way that read to Jared. Not that we can ever know for sure, of course. Either way it seems central to the whole thing that Jared's parents weren't the ones to tell him the truth, and I would guess that once he learned the truth he hated them more every day that he knew the truth and saw how they continued to live the lie. It's a little parallel to Elizabeth/Paige/Philip in a way. If Jared looked at his parents being normal to him and now saw it as all spy manipulation, that makes me think of Philip's disgust at suddenly seeing Elizabeth's mother/daughter bonding with Paige as Elizabeth simply assessing a potential asset. Anyway, we shall see. Gabriel doesn't seem to be pushing them to tell Paige. That may have just been their first gambit. I think the two agents are lying about the plan, not that they believe the plan, as stated so far, is what they really want. I think it's a just lure for Elizabeth. I thought Gabriel was pushing them to complete the orders they were given--what else could he be referring to when he says things like "About Paige...?" Elizabeth is the one who talks about getting her into the socialist mindset in order to prepare her to learn who she really is. And she played that off to Philip as telling him what he wanted to hear--i.e., that she told him they were working on it but it wasn't yet possible to tell Paige. Gabriel seems to have quickly figured out Elizabeth's on board. He's reminding her how proud her own mother would be at her doing such important work. If he means her to think about her mother and imagine how great it will be to personally tell Paige about her for the first time he's smart enough not to say it--Elizabeth really doesn't respond well, imo, to people telling her she'll get what she personally wants. She needs to believe she's doing it for the cause. If she thinks she's getting what she wants she's liable to look for a way to deny herself to prove her loyalty. At least she has to figure out a way that it's the same thing. The issue of who, exactly, told Jared the truth comes up a lot in S2 and I took it as the theme of 3. There was the letter from Leanne, Elizabeth burning it to protect Jared, Elizabeth regretting that and fearing Jared learning the truth from the Americans instead of Leanne and Emmett themselves, albeit posthumously, Jared, imo, seeming to fixate on their lying as proof that they didn't love him (not knowing that they had tried to tell him in their own way simply as parents who loved him and wanted him to understand them rather than as a way to recruit him), the Centre telling Jared themselves and then Kate giving Philip and Elizabeth the order to tell Paige. Claudia seemed to state that the mistake they were correcting was not just ordering the parents to do it. Of course, the KGB might switch it up again unexpectedly, the way they sent out an assassin and then tried to get him back and couldn't. But when and how are they going to stop them from telling Paige? Just wait for updates that they're about to do it and then swoop in? What if the Jennings don't tell them they're about to do it? I get the impression Gabriel has been sent in because they haven't done it yet. To me it seems like the angle that Gabriel is playing is much closer to the dynamic of S1 (which makes sense because these are still the same characters). He's playing up Elizabeth as the good soldier, and that's already got her separating herself from Philip. (Saying she and Philip *were* in a different place in their relationship, telling Gabriel about Paige's doubts about Philip and him comparing those doubts to the trust she had in Elizabeth.) I'd have to watch the scenes again, but I feel like with Elizabeth he refers to *her and Philip* being different while with Philip he says that *Elizabeth* looks at *him* differently--iow, subtly noting that Elizabeth finally loves him (shame if something were to happen to that love...). To me it seems like Gabriel might be more likely to encourage Elizabeth to tell Paige herself if he doesn't come around. Which I think would show her affirming her loyalty to the Centre over both her children and her husband. 1 Link to comment
albaniantv February 15, 2015 Share February 15, 2015 I agree with Sister Magpie that Elizabeth would not utilize Hans to help them convert Paige; to me that would be tantamount to procurement. But I think the sweet faced Hans is here to intersect with Paige, and can imagine that the Center might use him in this way or there may be some way they meet up independently, maybe a rally or church activities? The last is far fetched -- the Center is probably more likely to be pulling the strings, so maybe Gabriel will be the connective tissue. It appears Jared was only brought on board through his sexual and emotional attachment to Kate. Even if that did blow up in everyone's faces, it would probably still be considered the most likely lure to pull in our Paige. Though they have to see how volatile the emotional and sexual connection can be, the Center seems to see it as central to everything Philip, Elizabeth and other agents do. So, I think that's what is to be offered to Paige. Or maybe a cherub faced boy and a grandmother... Link to comment
sistermagpie February 15, 2015 Share February 15, 2015 (edited) Henry would be easier to turn then Paige at this point. Paige is more self assured and actually has a sense of who she is at this point in her life. Henry is in the early stages of puberty and if a woman (like say Mrs. Beeman) touches his winky and whispers sweet nothings in his ear (which I think was how The Centre got Jared to murder his family) said woman could get him to do almost anything. Hell this has been true in real life by the way. Doesn't mean he would do it well. Which is probably why the Jared thing ended badly. Paige would be sooooo easy to turn!All they would have to do is place the right good-looking, idealistic-seeming male agent in her class, youth group, church, etc. Girls are very susceptible. Paige was willing to lay down her life for that minister. The right agent could push those same buttons and get Paige to do absolutely anything for him. Philip knows this. He's been trained in manipulating women. Someone could easily do to Paige what he's doing to Martha. They'd need a different look and a different script, but it's the same basic routine. I think this all depends on the boy or girl. If it was as easy as sex spies would have an easier time with it. Philip and Elizabeth are both trained in manipulating people through sex, but part of that manipulation is picking the right target. Martha, for instance, was probably picked because she was lonely and unappreciated, and yet Philip not only hasn't turned her, he hasn't tried to turn her. Stan wasn't turned by Nina. Jared was first completely destabilized by learning his parents lied to him--someone in that state is I think more likely to latch on to something else offered to them. Not just sex, but a purpose and a destiny. Kate replaced his parents as personal support. Paige thinks she's ready to lay down her life for the pastor, but that's a teenage fantasy that even she knows isn't realistic. There was no real danger at the protest. Would Paige go further with that and become the kind of person who really did want to lay down her life and wanted a man who would make her do that? Maybe. Or maybe not. One of the things we see so often on the show is that what people decide to be loyal to is often very personal, unique to each person, often surprising and unshakable and not always apparent until they're actually facing the choice. I agree that Philip knows how those motivations can be manipulated and fears them being manipulated in Paige to get her to do something she wouldn't really want for herself, but it still seems like the relationship he's mostly terrified of being exploited that way is the parental one. I think when it comes to romance that Paige might be more like her mother in that she'd prefer being devoted to a cause than a person. She admires the pastor because she sees him being heroic like Jesus, not because she has a crush on him, imo. I'm equally unsure that Henry would be easily turned into a traitor through sex. There's a difference between getting a teenage boy to do something reckless and stupid in the throes of an affair and creating a lifelong committed spy. This kind of thing requires a much deeper hold that's not made in the throes of teenage hormones, imo. Sex is not central to everything they do--in fact it's often the basis of the more superficial relationships rather than the strong ones. Gregory, Fred and Charles all seemed motivated by their politics rather than sex. The only one of them that had a sexual relationship with his handler always put the sex and romance as secondary to the cause. Edited February 15, 2015 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
stillshimpy February 15, 2015 Share February 15, 2015 I'm on record (lengthy, wordy record) that I think the way the plan to recruit Paige -- as outlined -- is just plain-old stupid. Phillip's decree to Arkady seems to have put it on hold in its original incarnation, but I don't necessarily think that attempting to recruit Paige via other means is stupid. It just seems so unlikely to work. I can understand being on one side of a divide and looking at people on the other side and thinking, "If we just explain it properly, they'll get it. They'll see reason" because from that person's view, what they are trying to sell is the right answer. Like there would be no other reaction when it is all laid out other than, "Wow, I do see your point. Clearly I must work for your side, because mine sucks." But that's the problem. Whoever is doing the asking already is a true believer and frankly, whereas like most people I can complain about the workings of the government, but if it is "back to the wall, what do you believe?" people have an attachment, usually a deep and abiding attachment to the land they think of as Home. So I actually do think it would be interesting to see Paige approached by someone else to see what she would say. Fun end to the season (pure speculation on my part and I doubt I will get it) is Paige being approached, seemingly being interested and then going to freaking Stan. "Mr. Beeman, you work for the FBI, don't you? I need to tell you something...." and then the True Believer Elizabeth would be confronted by actually loving the enemy. It would be interesting. Half of what makes the Paige question interesting isn't "Wow, second generation spying! Let's go on lengthy adventures with Paige, and solve crimes and shit...." because....no. At least to me, that is the least interesting direction it could go is for Paige to be actually interested in being a Russian spy. Imperiling the crap out of her parents without even directly meaning to? More intriguing to me. I think it also makes sense that Elizabeth has such giant blinders on about Paige. Elizabeth has next to no emotionally authentic relationships in her life. Her mother, one of the few authentic relationships (since her mother knows what she does) is dying. Although Phillip loves Elizabeth and she knows it, they didn't even really establish that until more than a decade and a half together. So it makes perfect sense to me that Elizabeth desperately wants to believe that "she's my daughter" will be like her. Want what she wants, believe what she, Elizabeth, believes. She's ignoring HUGE flashing signs about how unlikely that really is, including Paige having faith in God, despite Elizabeth practically forbidding it. Paige doesn't seem to decide to believe what she's told which sort of means recruitment could go either way. Except for the fact that in the early eighties the Soviets were still seen as a threat to the nation (if an ever-diminishing one) and we heard all about lines for toilet paper instead of the land of plenty for all. Or that anti-nuke Paige is actually reading news about the godless Soviets invading Afghanistan and trying to impose their will on people in need of our help. It's just the societal narrative we absorb as part of a society does count for something. It would be interesting to see what Phillip and Elizabeth would do if they had a patriot on their hands. 2 Link to comment
stillshimpy February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) Answering sistermagpie for the Open House thread: The plan that they originally gave to Philip--which he didn't contradict by what he said to Arkady--was that Philip and Elizabeth were to tell Paige who they really were, then get her ready, then try to recruit her. So Gabriel's can be trying to get Philip to do what he was told to do. He told them to stay away from Paige and if they didn't he and Elizabeth were through. Gabriel has repeatedly told him that they heard him and are listening to him. It seems a pretty direct contradiction of that plan to say "I will fucking quit" or to be more accurate "I am out" (and all that implies for what Phillip does from that point forward). Or if not a contradiction, then it certainly seems his plans negates theirs. "We've recruited your daughter." "I quit. So you either get to kill me and think how that will impact your recruitment of Paige. Or you don't kill me and I am running around loose and pissed with all this information in my brain. Or you could deport me and see how Paige deals with that as an employee motivator." You're right it's not a contradiction, but it is an ultimatum and Gabriel has repeatedly said that they are taking his words to heart and whatever that might mean if he still hasn't given assent, which he has not. So it isn't a contradiction as much as it is a "sure, do that and there will repercussions you don't like, by a lot and you can't force me to actually do this job well" ...it's the same thing as saying it will cost the USSR Phillip's long held loyalty. Now when we very first met him, he was wavering in his support, but in terms of the results he's produced...he's arguably better at this than Elizabeth, so it seems it should carry some weight. It's the choice they took with Jared, and the choice they've explicitly told Philip and Elizabeth to take with Paige. I see all the same problems with it that you, but they've done it once and announced they're doing it again. The relationship between the parents and the children seems to be hugely central to the show, so I expect them to steer into that skid rather than take the safer route around it. Yes, Claudia explicitly told Elizabeth to take that course of action. Phillip then went to Arkady and told him, "Do this and you lose me (and at that time Elizabeth). Your choice." Gabriel has repeatedly followed up on those comments saying that they take that seriously. Now what exactly he means by that, I'm not sure, but Phillip is angry with Elizabeth for "assessing" and "grooming" Paige, and Elizabeth has reporting where Paige's head might be, but there has been a decided lack of what they are doing with that now. The huge sticking point is Gabriel claiming that Paige has a choice. We've discussed why that's a problem elsewhere, and I get that you don't disagree with why that's a problem. It's just...it really is an actual narrative problem in the story as to "Okay...so....? How does that work? There must be a different plan....?" Also, Phillip heatedly saying, "You're assessing her, you're grooming her." and Elizabeth replying, "I don't know what you're talking about. She's my daughter." also indicates that to Phillip's mind this plan is off, leading him to be pissed off that Elizabeth is seemingly acting like it is on. Phillip has never retracted his "Do this, and I am out" and Elizabeth's "I don't know what you're talking about" also seems to be pointing towards Phillip believing Plan.O is off. It's not quite what they did with Jared-the-Super-Soaking-Psycho either. Jared's parents said "No". The Center sent someone to seduce Jared and recruit him AND they told him that his parents worked for the Center already. So I think that's why it seems like if they were to use Hans -- or anyone else in the initial approach -- as an alternate plan to having Phillip quit in a bloody rage or whatever might happen if Paige has no choice left open to her -- leaving out the information about her parents if she says 'No' would be a workable option. Then waiting for Elizabeth and Phillip to tell her who they are and what they do if she says "Yes". Meanwhile behind the scenes, Elizabeth continues to try and guide her without doing anything overt. That's just one option for "what the Center might be doing to placate Phillip and not making the same "oops, now everyone is dead" mistakes that they did with Jared. You're right, Gabriel hasn't detailed any of that as an option, but he's also said that "we heard you, we listened, we give a fig and few other fruits too about you" so that's why it seems like "Okay....if she has a choice, how do they manage that?" Essentially Phillip denying consent and threatening action if the plan is enacted....actions that he's never retracted as his personal option....are a pretty significant reason that I personally believe they have to have some kind of plan. Or maybe not, but it's going to be a tad freaky if they are just trusting Paige not tell anyone because they are her parents....when Jared felt betrayed enough by learning who they all were ....and his parents saying, "no, you must not do this" into killing the lot of them in a move that ended up costing them not just Jared's parents, but a bunch of other people too. They've already incurred some serious losses because of parental disapproval, so I think Phillip's "do this and it is both on and over" declaration might carry some weight. Edited February 16, 2015 by stillshimpy 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 It's so fascinating to me that, despite the cynicism and paranoia and tradecraft, Elizabeth still has this streak of naivete about recruiting Paige. It's not a bell that can be un-rung, as Phillip is well aware. And yet she has this optimism that "knowing who she is" will transform Paige's attitudes and make her amenable to the Soviet cause. All Phillip can think about is all the dirty stuff they have to do, including the sex because we've seen it's started to bother him about E's honeypot roles. He doesn't believe that Centre won't ask for an inch and demand a mile, which to me is a more realistic assessment. Absolutely--and I think this has also been established as central to her personality. When Elizabeth is faced with a time where the Centre shows it cares about her not at all, her reaction is often to think she needs to be loyal to them anyway, like with Timoshev. Philip is pretty much the only person in her life that seems to give her the ability to question them in a more realistic way. (Note that the other important people in her life all constantly tell her that her loyalty to the Cause if the thing that makes her a good person--Zhukov, Gabriel, Gregory, her mother). But right now she's doubling down on that old attitude for probably several reasons: she loves the idea of being in this with Paige, of Paige knowing who she really is (a hero) and being a good Soviet, another father figure is back being affectionate and proud of her, her mother's dying and reminding her of what she felt about it. She's got a lot of things working on her now to make her go back to the way she felt before. On the greater subject of the "choice" Gabriel claims Paige will have and what the Centre is doing by following the Jennings' wishes on this...I think here, too, we've got a lot of people with their own denial and limited understanding. I mean, I think Paige absolutely will be given a choice in terms of whether or not she works for them. She's not allowed to tell the FBI, but you can't get a loyal agent through blackmail or threats. They can maybe get her keep silent over that, but not make her an agent they would ever trust. That said, the KGB isn't above having completely wrong ideas about things they and their agents can do. I can believe there's some guy in Moscow with no experience of American life thinking they can just make their kid into an agent too. They're out of touch and greedy and ambitious. Philip, I think, is in his own form of denial since he seems to think he can just ignore the order. I think he's completely wrong if he thinks he can both refuse to turn Paige and also expect the Centre to stay away from her, but I gather what's going on right now is that the Centre gave them several months, and now they've sent in Gabriel to put more pressure on him. Philip has, I think, far less of a choice than Paige here. Paige is a US citizen and as such yeah, she could be kidnapped and sent to Russia but that's a different evil plot with even more problems. The show itself, I think, is far less interested in the logistics of turning American kids into Soviet agents than it is with these exact emotional reactions of the Jennings as parents vs. the KGB as an organization. It's the same conflict set up in the pilot. Elizabeth sees her family as a possible threat to her commitment to the Centre and as such is always looking for ways to bring them into line, either by shutting off her emotions about her family or by making them all creatures of the Centre. Philip's conflict is that he cares about "all of it," as he says in the pilot. He wants to protect everybody he cares about--Elizabeth, the kids, himself, random innocent Americans, the Russians--and those sometimes come into conflict with each other. Link to comment
rue721 February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 That said, the KGB isn't above having completely wrong ideas about things they and their agents can do. I can believe there's some guy in Moscow with no experience of American life thinking they can just make their kid into an agent too. They're out of touch and greedy and ambitious. I don't think the KGB is especially naive. Remember when they lied to that dead agent's wife in order to get their hands on her, then murdered her and took her baby to Russia to live with the dead agent's grandparents? I think that the way that they're grasping for Paige right now might be a way of testing Elizabeth and Philip's loyalty, rather than Paige's, and I think that they're not above destroying Paige if they think that'll keep Elizabeth and Philip in line. They're capable of winning over Elizabeth with honey, but if Philip refuses to play along with that, I think that they're willing to use vinegar with him. I think it's possible they'll offer to have Elizabeth go see her mother in Russia (which Elizabeth will be eager to do because her mother is dying), and for Elizabeth to take Paige with her. Once they're in Russia, who knows what they might do to either of them. The Belgian girl in prison with Nina is probably not on the up-and-up imo, since like Nina said, that prison isn't a place for innocent people. I wonder who she is and how they recruited her? Might she be a second gen illegal herself? Not all the sleeper agents were sent to the US, probably. I wonder if Paige might be the foreign girl to show up at that prison. They've also said quite often that Americans in general, and Paige in particular, are delicate. I don't know much about Philip pre-recruitment, but the recruitment process was certainly rough on Elizabeth. As far as I remember, she was separated from her family, beaten, and raped. I wonder if the KGB is going to figure out a way to likewise toughen Paige up before sending her into the field proper -- regardless of what Paige "chooses." Link to comment
stillshimpy February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) .I think here, too, we've got a lot of people with their own denial and limited understanding. Or people who disagree with you on this, like me, simply hold a different opinion that is not based in denial, or "limited understanding." Time will tell on the story as it unfolds, but has not definitively answered these questions for any of us. It's possible you're right, but it's also possible there's more to come in this story. Edited February 16, 2015 by stillshimpy 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) I don't think the KGB is especially naive. Remember when they lied to that dead agent's wife in order to get their hands on her, then murdered her and took her baby to Russia to live with the dead agent's grandparents? They also told them to get ready to fight guerrilla warfare when Reagan got shot and told them to get a bug into Casper Weinberger's house in two days. They can be brutal and clever in some ways and have blind spots in ever. I think it's possible they'll offer to have Elizabeth go see her mother in Russia (which Elizabeth will be eager to do because her mother is dying), and for Elizabeth to take Paige with her. Once they're in Russia, who knows what they might do to either of them. If Elizabeth takes Paige with her to Russia than presumably Paige is already aware of who her parents are. Once in Russia sure they could threaten Paige's life to keep Philip in line, just as they could threaten relatives he had in Russia to keep him in line. Right now he's in line out of loyalty. Unless you mean that Elizabeth would take Paige to Russia pretending they're just taking a trip to Europe or something but really she's kidnapping her to have her held hostage. I think that would blow up the family, though. I wonder if Paige might be the foreign girl to show up at that prison. As of now she's supposed to continue to be Paige Jennings from Fall Church who grows up and gets a good job at some government place. Or people who disagree with you on this, like me, simply hold a different opinion that is not based in denial, or "limited understanding." Ack! I meant *the characters on the show* were sometimes in denial and had limited understanding as shown in specific things in canon (i.e., Elizabeth is in denial of Paige being American, Philip in denial of how much he can deny the KGB, the Russians in Moscow having limited understanding of the situation on the ground in the USA). I wasn't making a personal judgment of people in the discussion on the board--especially one as obnoxious as that! That would be incredibly insulting to read--I am genuinely sorry it came across that way. Edited February 16, 2015 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
stillshimpy February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) Ack! I meant *the characters on the show* were sometimes in denial and had limited understanding as shown in specific things in canon (i.e., Elizabeth is in denial of Paige being American, Philip in denial of how much he can deny the KGB, the Russians in Moscow having limited understanding of the situation on the ground in the USA). I wasn't making a personal judgment of people in the discussion on the board--especially one as obnoxious as that! That would be incredibly insulting to read--I am genuinely sorry it came across that way. It's cool, sistermagpie, I was assuming that it was a case of tangled meaning. It happens to me a lot, so trust me, I can relate :-) I see you point on that and I think that's an interesting one , particularly as it pertains to Elizabeth. Phillip less so, but perhaps that is why he hasn't pressed the "What do you mean by that?" on the choice issue, because he's a little afraid of what that might mean? Edited February 16, 2015 by stillshimpy 1 Link to comment
Umbelina February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 Thinking of all of this, I really like looking at that interview (media thread) with the actress who plays Paige. She's actually Paige's age, and a typical American KID. She says things like "cool!" about being a spy, but of course, she's saying that as an actress, in real life, it's easy to see what it would do to a child that age when you see her innocence in that interview. Imagine if her real life parents told her they were traitors, and had lied to her, and now she would be expected to spy for Russia. Yeah, not so cool. Link to comment
sistermagpie February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 Phillip less so, but perhaps that is why he hasn't pressed the "What do you mean by that?" on the choice issue, because he's a little afraid of what that might mean? Yeah, I think that's why I focus on the whole thing as being just a web of conflicting desires of people. Because the show just doesn't seem to be that interested in the central practical questions. Neither of her parents have asked the first question that anybody watching the show asks. Like neither of them talks about how Paige is American the way they are Russian. And more importantly, nobody questions the wisdom of giving an American teenager power over your valuable agents. That's what we see as the most obvious question, but everyone else is more worried about the stress of Paige being an agent or her knowing who she really is. Maybe they'll ask these questions as they get closer to pulling the trigger but so far they're not thinking about it. I was reading a book recently that dealt with Illegals--it was fiction and not that good--but one thing made me think of it in this ep. There's a point where the Americans are in a house with some Russians and wondering if they'll report them and the guy thinks about the situation if it were reversed. And he just says how the people are afraid of the KGB where as Americans are more likely to see the FBI as on their side on this issue. Like Stan said in Open House--"People love to cooperate." Or like when Stan was grilling Gregory's associate. The guy was keeping quiet about their drug ring, but even a drug dealer who might be generally hostile to the police, seems to have willingly flipped on Gregory when he found out he was a spy. If Paige learned her parents were Russian agents I can't believe she wouldn't consider going to Stan about it. She might never do it for many reasons, but she'd think of it as a possibility, I think. I know I would even if I didn't do it. Philip and Elizabeth both often refer to their kids as having "grown up here" as if she's like a British colonial growing up in India in the 19th century. Link to comment
PinkRibbons February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 I've got to say the idea of Paige turning her parents in would be deeply ironic, considering the Soviets had a quite a bit of propaganda (most notably Pavlik Morozov) aimed at children encouraging them to inform on their parents. By my parents' time (which is essentially the time-frame of the show), this was pretty much completely rejected by the Soviet people, though lip service was paid. Inform on strangers? Maybe. Inform on your own family? My father just called it a "mortal sin". As an American kid, whose parents refer to my "growing up here" with a tone of relief, I have to say I'd never turn my folks in. But then again I think it's probably more about my family dynamic. My folks could secretly be terrorist nazi spies and I wouldn't turn them in. I wouldn't help, but I wouldn't turn them in. With Paige on the other hand, there is that tangible gap between herself and her parents. She already has this feeling that she doesn't know them, so she may not be as devoted to them as they are to her. Meanwhile when the subject of Paige being kidnapped to Russia came up I had a sudden vision of Philip sneaking back into the country and killing everyone in the Lubyanka on his way to get her out. I don't think the KGB would be above blackmailing the parents with the childrens' lives. As for the competency of the KGB, according to my folks it had its moments of complete absurdity. Apparently a big issue was that they would get intelligence but take forever to act on it. Plans Elizabeth and Philip are stealing would most likely end up on someone's desk, unread for ages. Link to comment
sistermagpie February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 I've got to say the idea of Paige turning her parents in would be deeply ironic, considering the Soviets had a quite a bit of propaganda (most notably Pavlik Morozov) aimed at children encouraging them to inform on their parents. By my parents' time (which is essentially the time-frame of the show), this was pretty much completely rejected by the Soviet people, though lip service was paid. Inform on strangers? Maybe. Inform on your own family? My father just called it a "mortal sin". This is actually where I always feel like Philip is coming from. Even though Elizabeth totally seems like a big tattletale, he's still shocked and appalled at the idea of her reporting on him to the Centre when he finds out what she said about him. On the one hand I thought--has he met the woman? Why would he be surprised? But otoh he seems to take it as a given that you don't do that, which I can easily imagine plenty of ordinary people doing even during his lifetime. Meanwhile when the subject of Paige being kidnapped to Russia came up I had a sudden vision of Philip sneaking back into the country and killing everyone in the Lubyanka on his way to get her out. I don't think the KGB would be above blackmailing the parents with the childrens' lives. Seriously. Liam Neeson has nothing on this guy, it's true. As for the competency of the KGB, according to my folks it had its moments of complete absurdity. Apparently a big issue was that they would get intelligence but take forever to act on it. Plans Elizabeth and Philip are stealing would most likely end up on someone's desk, unread for ages. Not surprising. And probably not unique to them either! With Paige on the other hand, there is that tangible gap between herself and her parents. She already has this feeling that she doesn't know them, so she may not be as devoted to them as they are to her. Talking about Elizabeth's earlier reports on Philip makes me think that maybe this is another reason Paige seems like she might consider it more than other kids might (including Henry). Maybe I feel like she's got some similar attitudes as Elizabeth there, that she could see herself as doing the right thing by putting something else above her personal love for her parents in ways I can't see Henry doing. Which is not to say that I think Paige would necessarily do that, but I can see things in her character that lean toward it more than, say, Henry. Link to comment
stillshimpy February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 (edited) Elizabeth has done something recently that I think would make Paige exceptionally, and understandably angry: she's pretended to be interested in Paige's faith and to at least explore sharing it. So if at any point they are having a heart-to-heart about the righteousness of Elizabeth's cause, that's sort of a big one to try and explain away. "So was that all a lie? Were you just pretending to be interested so that you could keep tabs on me? If you think the Soviet Union is so great, what do you think about religion?" A big problem with Paige knowing the truth about her parents, at any point, is that they then have to deal with how angry Paige will be about the years of lying that went into it all. Paige is very likely to be angry and in particular when it comes to Elizabeth going to her church, she's very likely to feel duped and lied to. There's a Catch 22 involved in all of this that Elizabeth doesn't seem to be confronting. If part of revealing the truth to Paige -- whatever that might or might not entail -- also involves admitting "Yes, we have lied and lied and lied and lied....and lied...but it was for a good reason!" then the most obvious problem is the "how do I know you're tell me the truth now?" They've lied and pretended so much that they almost negate the possibility that Paige will be able to believe them just in admitting how much they really have lied. That in and of itself runs the risk of turning Paige completely away from supporting their cause in anyway, because they're actually kind of living out the cliche about Soviets (lying, dangerous, etc). The duplicitous nature of their entire existence is problematic beyond the telling of it in trying to convert someone who has been on the receiving end of those lies. I can't even imagine how rightly furious she would be. That's another part of the "wouldn't there be a huge risk that she'd just turn them in?" I think Elizabeth is supposed to believe on some level that Paige will understand, forgive and absolve that entirely because of (in Elizabeth's perception) the rightness of their cause....and it just doesn't really seem that likely to me. Like their only real prayer would be that Paige wouldn't want Henry to have to grow up in foster care, or for them to be deported. That she might be willing to protect them, but not for the "you're my family, I love you" reasons as much as "you're clearly lying psychopaths, but I don't want to have to live in Russia or for Henry to be put in foster care". Edited February 17, 2015 by stillshimpy 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 Elizabeth has done something recently that I think would make Paige exceptionally, and understandably angry: she's pretended to be interested in Paige's faith and to at least explore sharing it. So if at any point they are having a heart-to-heart about the righteousness of Elizabeth's cause, that's sort of a big one to try and explain away. "So was that all a lie? Were you just pretending to be interested so that you could keep tabs on me? If you think the Soviet Union is so great, what do you think about religion?" I feel like this is a huge thing too. That seems to be a big part of Philip's position. Obviously he, too, has been lying to the kids all these years. But I think the way his personality rolls is that in his mind he's not totally lying. Like, Elizabeth feels like she's not really connecting to the kids as Elizabeth Jennings, but Philip seems much more fragmented in the way he understands himself. He just buries parts of himself and would prefer if the kids only know Philip Jennings forever. (Paige no doubt would not see it this way, of course.) But his first accusation to Elizabeth after talking to Gabriel was "So it was all bullshit?" about her going to church with Paige. So the way it's set up now--and this was lampshaded with Gabriel--there's the irony that Paige is leaning towards the parent who's pretending to respect her as an individual in order to manipulate her and pulling away from the parent who doesn't want to manipulate her because he respects her as an individual. Philip also this week snapped at Elizabeth for being flirtatious when Philip was angry about her plans with Paige, which I took to be about Philip again feeling like she was using manipulation on their family. It's possible that Elizabeth could play it in such a way that it would still work--if she got Paige completely on board with the socialist cause and anti-religion and then let her into the secret. But that seems like wishful thinking on her part. It seems much more dramatic for Paige to be all the more angry when she figures out that Elizabeth lied about all this. It is possible, I guess it somewhat depends on how Paige really values being her own person vs. having a guide. I always thought, for instance, that there was some irony in Paige asserting her individuality by becoming more like her new friends--which is a typical teenage thing. So there maybe is really something in Elizabeth's description of Paige as looking for something--a higher purpose, a cause. Link to comment
gwhh February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 I don't thing they would send Paige to the USSR, even it was just for training for the summer. Even as a elite and privilege member of the KGB, the soviet union would still suck for an American teenager. The dark side of the moon would be of more interest to an American teenager. Even if they just give her the summer tour! 2 Link to comment
scrb April 4, 2015 Share April 4, 2015 With all the demanding hours from spying and then spending time at the travel agency, the kids should be fairly neglected, the definition of latchkey kids. Of course the Center requiring the recruitment causes the agent to make their kids another project? Some interpretations of Mad Men suggest that the relative indifference of Don and Betty to their kids was typical for the times. Could a similar rationale apply for this period? On the kids side, Henry is preoccupied with his interests to care about what his folks are doing. Neither he nor Paige are seen interacting with peers though. Paige finds it odd that they don't have relatives. How would she know unless she compared notes with school mates? Yet she seems more preoccupied with the church and the comings and goings of the parents, which makes her an odd bird as well. 1 Link to comment
FormerMod-a1 June 3, 2016 Share June 3, 2016 18 minutes ago, Umbelina said: My big question before I even respond to a few other quotes is this: How SHOULD Paige be written? Given everything that is show cannon so far, the most important of which are that they are a family with two teeens, and the KGB said for them to train Paige or THEY, the KGB would, and that Paige was already asking questions and wanting to know the truth on her own. (yes Bannon, I know yours, defect, or Paige should rat them out, but I want other ideas here) Just what kind of reaction from Paige would make a better show? A more realistic show? I hear "whiny" and I hear "naive" and "bossy" and "demanding" and hell, I've even said a few of those things myself here. What reactions would make this something you'd like watching? What would make it good? What I see so far is Paige has reacted in terror and confusion after the creepy trip to Germany, and reached out to an adult she trusted. After that her parents came down hard telling her she must deal with that mess, and she's been a drudge trudging to "work" for them ever since, spending most of her free time both sucking up to, and reporting on the Pastors. The past couple of episodes she's apparently decided that hell, if she has to be spy anyway, why not enjoy it a bit and have some say in her life, and possibly be valuable and more adult by reporting on Stan and Mathew. She's not rewarded or respected for that, instead her parents react quite differently that she expected, no pat on the head, no "thanks honey." Still, she wants to know what they are doing, not the bullshit "Working for my country" crap Elizabeth shovels, but after watching her mother easily kill a man, "WHAT DO YOU DO?" Specifics, not platitudes. She is involved now, she wants to know what she's involved in, so she asks for details, but most of all for no more lies. I just get all of that. I do agree that since it's one shock after another, and still no real answers in sight for her, her acting is almost always required to be "shock" or "dismay" or "pain/confusion" which leads us to way too many eyebrow scenes. Anyway, aside from ratting out her parents, which she still may do, just what could Paige do here that wouldn't annoy people and yet still seem realistic? Exactly. She's in a position where there really is no handbook. If she's a loving daughter she's automatically a fake at the rest of her life. She doesn't even know what she's being loyal TO, which is why she's demanding to know that. Oh, and I meant to say, her parents telling her what she's being loyal to IS part of the training the KGB has demanded of them for Paige. Her parents are caught because they don't want to lie to their daughter, but the truth is too ugly to tell. In a way, Paige's reactions and questions are a mirror for them. Because of Paige, they now must really look at what they do as well, specifically, and probably examine not only if that is a life they want for Paige, but if it's really a life they want for THEMSELVES. The KGB are trusting Philip and Elizabeth to train their daughter in any way that will work. They are too far away to micromanage this, the same way they didn't micromanage the handling of the Pastors. Of course they know Paige is in accomplice territory, they are training her to work for the KGB! I do think that will, as I said above, end up with them both taking a long look at what they do, and what they began when they were Paige's age. I think that's the whole point. I may be the wrong person to answer this since I don't hate Paige, but to answer the question... 1) I am more fed up with how Philip and Elizabeth are handling her/answering her questions. Yes, they want to tell her the truth and she wants to hear it (or so she thinks), but that doesn't mean they have to cave to her stomping her feet and being all "my feelings" at that moment. For example, in last night's episode, why didn't Philip just leave when she got pouty and demanding? A simple "We'll talk later, but I have to go now" and leave. Is she going to stop him? I don't think so. And if they had to show them sputtering and taken off guard, why not "We can tell you generally what we do, the types of things we do, the "operations", but we are not going to give you specific details about specific ops especially if they are going on right now. That is just dangerous and stupid..." If they're worried about her getting angry and calling Stan or the police of something, Elizabeth wasn't leaving them. She could have kept an eye on her. Heck, she could have told her while Philip was out. 2) Paige has known for 8 months now, they've been living this for 8 months now, shouldn't they be past some of this by now? It seems to be stagnating. Paige "TELL ME X NOW. I DEMAND TO KNOW!" Phillip and Elizabeth sputtering then caving. Lather rinse repeat. I don't expect Paige to have come to grips with this yet, but nothing has changed in 8 months. It really should have. 3) There's too much focus on it for me. WAY too much screen time. No, they can't ignore it since they did go there and have Paige be told, but it doesn't have to eat up SO much time. Granted, some of that feeling is related to my 2nd point above - they really should be past some of this stuff by now and moving forward more. If you're just going to show me the same damned thing, I'd rather they cut that scene and devote the time to something else. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina June 3, 2016 Share June 3, 2016 All true. I'm going to respond by points. 1. I think it may have been to delay Philip's meet with William, and thus saved him from capture. (ha) Anyway, to take it further, I think because Paige just watched a man efficiently killed, Philip didn't want to dump the whole thing on Elizabeth, and did try to diffuse it himself. He actually cares just as much that his daughter is at a breaking point after the dead guy, as he does about his assignment. Actually, I think that will play into the series resolve. Which is more important, the cause or the kids? 2. Yes, I think I've fan wanked that into she's known for 8 months, but the only ops the Jennings had during that time were easily handled. Rare meets with William, and Elizabeth meeting with Young Hee, often during the day when Paige was at school. Now they are getting back into their rather busy routine. ?? 3. I know what you mean, but I do see the choice between country and family is key to the Jennings. They were willing to sacrifice their own lives for their country, but will they honestly be able to sacrifice Paige's? She is their mirror now. They HAVE to look, specifically at what they do, in not lying to Paige, they must stop lying to themselves. William, the jaded spy, is over ideology and governments, he knows it's all bullshit on all sides. Will the Jennings, in great part because of Paige, be coming to that conclusion as well? 5 Link to comment
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