Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[ParadoxLost]

5 hours ago, Curio said:

It makes me think that an original draft of the scene didn't include Emma physically taking off the ring, but A&E wanted it to be more melodramatic and shocking, so they had Emma take the ring off. Or the writers were thinking backwards and they always knew there would be a second proposal later in the season where Hook isn't so guilt-ridden, but they thought it would be weird for him to propose without a ring, so they forced Emma to take it off to set up Round 2. Unfortunately, that kind of backwards thinking only focuses on the plot and destroys the characterizations in the current timeline.

I don't think the way this scene ended up was about getting Hook the ring back for a second proposal.  It was plot driven, but it was to get Hook onto the Nautilus.  Once accepting that Hook was going to end up on the Nautilus and it was driven by a Captain Swan fight and that the writers took that as the non-negotiable plot point, I don't really see how the argument could have gone differently that would have been better.

I think the draft were likely to soften the fight and give more hope.

Emma clearly said she would have stood by Hook in the face of Charming's anger over the manner of his father's death.  There were likely drafts where that wasn't particularly clear.

Emma left Hook an opening that basically said when he learned that they should handle these things together he should come back to her.  That probably didn't make all the drafts.

A draft where Emma had to ask "what's that" about the dream catcher.  Obviously discarded because it made too much sense but was "boring".

If someone told me the original draft had Hook leaving without Gideon's interference I wouldn't be surprised.

What is going on with Hook is their typical MO.  He does bad things retroactively for plot or Emma suddenly gets amnesia about what she knows about their relationship, Hook, or her own past deeds that bring perspective to create conflict but they soften some of it and ignore the rest because they don't actually want any long term consequences or change.

[Curio]

I'm still trying to figure out why the writers went with the rushed proposal at all. It didn't need to happen this early. Emma and Killian could have gotten into the dreamcatcher fight without Emma ever knowing he was going to propose to her. Why rush a crappy proposal where half of the action had to happen off screen with an out of character Emma digging through Killian's personal belongings? Literally the only reason the proposal happened is because of an off screen event. That's terrible writing. And the only meta reason a proposal happened is because the writers wanted more drama. Otherwise, they could have easily had Hook stuck on the Nautilus without ever having had the chance to propose to Emma, and then while Hook was trapped in another realm, Emma could have found the ring in his sock drawer and she could have realized that building a family is more important than kicking a boyfriend out of the house for something he did decades ago. (Or, here's a shocker, she could have actually had an on screen conversation with David who could have filled her in on Killian's plan.) Emma finding the ring when she thinks Killian "abandoned" her could have been the impetus for realizing he didn't actually abandon her, and then when they reunited, she could have forgiven him and pulled the "I found something" card.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

37 minutes ago, Curio said:

And the only meta reason a proposal happened is because the writers wanted more drama.

That's exactly it. The moment of handing the ring back is mega drama, one of those giffable moments. Never mind that it doesn't really fit in the story and makes the characters look bad. That one isolated moment is super dramatic. In order to hand back the ring, there has to be a ring to begin with. Hook and Emma having the fight without handing the ring back doesn't give us that one big dramatic image, nor does them having this fight without being engaged. They don't even write for plot on this show. They write for those high-impact moments that don't really fit the story of characters.

As I said on the episode thread, giving back an engagement ring is basically the nuclear option of a relationship. It's a sign that it's over -- not just the engagement, but the relationship. It doesn't say "we can work this out." If you think you can work it out, you don't give back the ring. It's a terrible way to say "we need to work on this together." If you give back the ring, you don't expect the guy to come home, and you don't get to be upset when he leaves town.

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

As I said on the episode thread, giving back an engagement ring is basically the nuclear option of a relationship. It's a sign that it's over -- not just the engagement, but the relationship. It doesn't say "we can work this out." If you think you can work it out, you don't give back the ring. It's a terrible way to say "we need to work on this together." If you give back the ring, you don't expect the guy to come home, and you don't get to be upset when he leaves town.

This is the first time Emma has gone through such a long stable relationship with an engagement, so she doesn't know the rules.  And we can't judge until we see the flashback in Season 8 when we find out this is what happened to Cleo too.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This is the first time Emma has gone through such a long stable relationship with an engagement, so she doesn't know the rules.

I've never gone through such a long, stable relationship with an engagement, and it's pretty obvious to me. If you know what an engagement ring is and what it means, then you'd know how significant it would be to hand it back. But yeah, we might get a flashback in season 8 in which she met someone for five minutes who had a huge impact on her life, and it parallels this.

[KAOS Agent]

No, no. You guys, we totally missed the part where Walsh gave Emma the ring again in NYC and then she gave it back right before we picked up on that conversation on her apartment roof. Emma is all about rejecting and accepting and then rejecting engagement rings. Hell, Neal probably proposed to her back in the day and then Emma waffled and that's the real reason Neal set her up and ditched her. Neal was the good guy. It was all Emma's fault. 

[Rumsy4]

30 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Hell, Neal probably proposed to her back in the day and then Emma waffled and that's the real reason Neal set her up and ditched her. Neal was the good guy. It was all Emma's fault. 

I mean, the Show already painted Neal as the good guy and established that Emma is as bad as Regina. So, I wouldn't be surprised at a flashback of Neal proposing and Emma rejecting it.

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

That's exactly it. The moment of handing the ring back is mega drama, one of those giffable moments. Never mind that it doesn't really fit in the story and makes the characters look bad. That one isolated moment is super dramatic. In order to hand back the ring, there has to be a ring to begin with. Hook and Emma having the fight without handing the ring back doesn't give us that one big dramatic image, nor does them having this fight without being engaged. They don't even write for plot on this show. They write for those high-impact moments that don't really fit the story of characters.

I think there is also an element of the writers feeling that they needed the engagement to justify the story line.

I think the felt they needed a broken engagement to drive Hook to the point of thinking of leaving Storybrooke.  I think they also needed a broken engagement to create whatever story happens next week and the level of angst and Regina/Snow support that seems to be going on in the previews. 

[Shanna Marie]

I can't really blame Emma because it's all so obviously contrived. I can definitely see Emma getting upset about Hook not talking to her, and I can see them having the fight where they're both talking about different things. I find it very hard to believe that the woman who went to the Underworld to bring him back and who was willing to share her heart with him would give up on him so quickly and easily. She still would have been mad, but when she talked about them working it out together, she'd have held onto the ring and handcuffed him to the sofa if she had to in order to make him talk it out with her.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Emma left Hook an opening that basically said when he learned that they should handle these things together he should come back to her.  That probably didn't make all the drafts.

I agree with @Shanna Marie that handing the ring back and then Emma walking away from Killian isn't the way for him to learn that they should work things out together.  That's telling him to go away and figure it out on his own.  How is that working together again?

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

she'd have held onto the ring and handcuffed him to the sofa if she had to in order to make him talk it out with her.

Thing is, Killian's not usually been the one in the relationship not to want to talk things out.  That's Emma. 

[jhlipton]

On 3/27/2017 at 7:49 PM, Curio said:

I'm guessing David will find out about Robert off screen, and then Emma will tell Hook on screen that she already told David and it's all resolved. And then David will maybe have one line where he gets to talk to Hook a few episodes later when no one cares about the plot anymore, but by the end of it, they're chummy pals again.

And then five minutes later, David tells Hook that he's nothing but a worthless pirate.

[Kktjones]

So while I'm not loving the drama for drama's sake they've inserted into Emma & Hook's relationship, I do find it interesting that they've perfectly set up a chance for both characters to face their biggest relationship fears (abandonment for Emma and not being worthy for Hook) in the next episode. Unfortunately I just don't have any faith that the writers will resolve it in a way that has any depth or that really allows for any character growth. All the resolutions on this show are so shallow... 

[Camera One]

I wonder if that's the only two fears they *know* how to set up for Emma and Hook, respectively.  Emma's typical response is WALLS and Hook's is running away, apparently.

[KingOfHearts]

30 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I wonder if that's the only two fears they *know* how to set up for Emma and Hook, respectively.  Emma's typical response is WALLS and Hook's is running away, apparently.

I guess the writers thought Hook hasn't done enough brooding lately. SMH.

[KAOS Agent]

New plan. Hook splits himself with one getting all the self loathing, so he's the broody, angsty one and the other one is the snarky, slightly inappropriate semi-reformed pirate. Emma splits herself into Walls!Emma and No!Walls!Emma. Then the annoying two of the pairing are sent to Wish Realm. Fun Captain Swan remains on my TV. And we all live happily ever after. Relationship problems solved.

Edited March 29, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

So say we all.

[KingOfHearts]

Is Beauty and the Beast About Stockholm Syndrome?

This is a video analyzing why the animated version of Beauty and the Beast does not portray Stockholm Syndrome. I thought this symptom of the syndrome was interesting: 

Quote

The smallest act of kindness or lack of violence from the captor elicits feelings of sympathy from the captive. 

This applies to both Regina/Snow and Rumple/Belle. Whenever R&R decide not to kill someone or do something that's just the decent human thing to do, their enablers reward them with sympathy. Very little is required to make this happen, and eventually R&R took advantage of it. Regina started doing good even though she hated it so that the heroes would approve of her. Rumple pretended to be a hero in 5A to buy Belle's trust back. 

Quote

Belle never sets out to fix the Beast. Ever. ... Her goal is never at any point, either stated or unstated, to make the Beast into another person. If he's a jerk, she responds in kind. If he's nice, she treats him in kind. She treats him fairly. He decides to improve himself of his own volition out of respect and fondness for her.

OUAT Belle has wanted to "fix" Rumple since Skin Deep. She has never loved him for who he is, but rather she loves the ideal in her head. She holds him up to that, and that is why she is always disappointed/betrayed. He is effectively "her handsome hero". 

In the movie, the Beast let Belle go she could tend to her father. He sacrificed his chance at saving himself for her sake. On OUAT, Rumple let Belle go out of cowardice because he believed she couldn't love him. Also in the film, Belle realized the Beast wasn't so bad after he saved her from a pack of wolves. In the show, she came to the same realization after Rumple saved her from the Queens of Darkness. However, Rumple did not put himself in harm's way like the Beast did. He didn't give up the Gauntlet for her, either. There are many other comparisons between the movie and OUAT that show you how little writers really know. When they inserted Belle, all they took into account were her love for books, wanting "something more", and her affection for the Beast.

Edited March 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

On OUAT, Rumple let Belle go out of cowardice because he believed she couldn't love him. 

He wasn't afraid that love might mess with his plans?  Because during that time, he apparently wanted to see if Dr. Jekyll's potion worked.

[Shanna Marie]

23 hours ago, Kktjones said:

So while I'm not loving the drama for drama's sake they've inserted into Emma & Hook's relationship, I do find it interesting that they've perfectly set up a chance for both characters to face their biggest relationship fears (abandonment for Emma and not being worthy for Hook) in the next episode. Unfortunately I just don't have any faith that the writers will resolve it in a way that has any depth or that really allows for any character growth. All the resolutions on this show are so shallow... 

I've been thinking about this, and would there really have been that much less drama if they'd let these characters act like real people?

Say ... We see Emma putting away some of Hook's stuff and finding the ring in his chest. She freaks out a little, tries it on, and then puts it back -- like a normal person would. When Hook comes home, she's giddy and a little awkward with him because she knows about the ring but he doesn't know that she knows, but she doesn't assume when he mentions needing to work up courage that he's talking about proposing since she knows he doesn't have the ring on him at the moment, and he wouldn't be working up the courage to propose without having things in place, like having the ring with him, duh. It maybe takes her a second or two to notice how upset he seems to be, since she's distracted by feeling awkward about knowing about the ring, but she does notice because she's not a freaking idiot and her superpower does work with him. Then because he'd indulged in generous amounts of liquid courage and because Captain Hook doesn't get cold feet, he makes himself come clean with her. She's shocked, and it really brings her mood down, but she's also understanding and believes David will be, too. There's some argument, since for him it's not just about David forgiving but about him being able to face him. She's driven to want to fix this because she knows about the ring, but she doesn't want to say anything to him to put extra pressure on him, and she can see that this is killing him. She decides that the next evening, when it's David's turn to be awake, they'll go together to talk to him, but she doesn't notice that he doesn't exactly agree to this. She just assumes they're on the same page. The next day, he goes to Nemo for advice on what to say to David, how to address it, whether he even can do it. That's when Gideon does his thing and sends them away. That means Hook doesn't show up at the appointed time to meet with David, and Emma is left stewing -- did he freak out and run off? She's left staring at that ring, wondering what Hook's deal is. That still gives us drama, with Emma having reason to have doubts, that ring becoming a symbol of what she might not be able to have, and with Hook still having good motivation for wanting to get back, since he doesn't want Emma to think he's a coward. And nobody looks like a raging idiot.

[Rumsy4]

Or oblivious and insensitive.

[Shanna Marie]

On 3/28/2017 at 11:18 PM, Camera One said:

I wonder if that's the only two fears they *know* how to set up for Emma and Hook, respectively.  Emma's typical response is WALLS and Hook's is running away, apparently.

Thinking about this, and it seems more like Emma is both WALLS and running away. Hook's response is shame. We've criticized his tendency to keep things from Emma and pointed out that it's inconsistent with the time in Neverland when he immediately told about Neal, but that time was an outlier because it didn't have anything to do with his own bad actions. Pan set him up with a dilemma: if he is the good man he's trying to be, then he tells about Neal but risks losing Emma to Neal. Or he can be a bad person and keep Emma to himself. Telling did bring the risk that he'd lose Emma, but it didn't reveal anything bad about Hook. Taking that route allowed Hook to be at peace with himself and allowed him to show that he was capable of being good and making the right decision.* But the kiss curse secret was about revealing something bad he'd done that he was ashamed of. Aside from Zelena's threats about hurting Emma's family if he told, he also didn't tell because it would mean revealing that he'd chosen his ship over helping Ariel (never mind that she was able to find Eric perfectly well on her own). He didn't tell about the hat stuff (before he had his heart ripped out and Rumple was physically restraining him) because he was ashamed about blackmailing Rumple over the hand and about going along with hatting the Apprentice -- until he had to choose between Emma's good opinion of him and Emma's well-being, and he chose to tell, regardless of the consequences (and I'm still irked that this never amounted to anything). I actually think those acts were worse, in a way, than the current dilemma because they were bad things he did in the present, after he started wanting to change. The current one is a bigger wrong and a more personal one, but it was something he did during the time they knew he was doing bad things. But still, it's in his pattern to want to hide things he's ashamed of, and then he feels ashamed of the hiding, and it's a downward spiral of self-loathing that makes him feel like he has no way out until his hand is forced.

* I'm still annoyed that they killed Neal off the way they did rather than letting this play out at all. Not that I'd have wanted a true triangle, with Emma being torn between them and going back and forth, but it somewhat diminishes Hook's dilemma here if it never really became a factor because Neal was gone before his presence had an impact. I would have liked to see what would have happened if Hook had stuck to his idea of backing off and giving Neal a chance so that Henry would have an intact family, and then Emma really getting to choose whether Neal was right for her, and then decide whether Hook might be the right guy. But that would have involved actually writing relationships and domestic scenes, and it might have kept them from retconning Neal as a great hero, if they were writing him at all in character or even just dealing with what he'd done to Emma in the past.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

it's a downward spiral of self-loathing that makes him feel like he has no way out until his hand is forced.

The past two episodes have shown a man on the edge of a complete breakdown. He needs lots of therapy and support. He was drunk as a skunk when Emma forced him to propose, and was literally trying to burn part of himself away over guilt and shame. That makes Emma walking away from him look even more extraordinarily callous. Is Emma really that oblivious to human emotions? Why did she want a drunk proposal in the first place, and then take her consent back when she found out that her relationship wasn't this ideal she had imagined it to be? Does Killian's drinking problem only matter to Emma when she's afraid he'll grow a pot-belly?

The answer, of course, is manufactured cheap drama. The gulf between Hook's behavior and Emma's reaction is unbridgeable because they're writing them at completely different planes. The writers are showing a man who is about to lose it completely, but are having Emma/us view it as a merely trust issue between Hook and Emma over his lack of self-worth. He can't walk off and fix himself with no support other than one session with Archie and a random meeting with Nemo. The writers simply won't write for normal human beings because they prefer dealing in cheap thrills and cliches. They simply don't care about writing in-depth relationships.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The past two episodes have shown a man on the edge of a complete breakdown. He needs lots of therapy and support. He was drunk as a skunk when Emma forced him to propose, and was literally trying to burn part of himself away over guilt and shame.

When you put it that way, this story is not romantic at all.  Yet the Writers think they're writing the best love story ever.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The past two episodes have shown a man on the edge of a complete breakdown. He needs lots of therapy and support.

Heck, he needed therapy even before the murder plot. According to Liam 1.0, he's always struggled with darkness. He has serious Daddy issues from being abandoned, always saw himself as far inferior to his brother, has lost everyone he's loved, leaving him fairly isolated until he met Emma, and even after meeting Emma he still hasn't really been brought into the broader circle of community. He may or may not be a true alcoholic with a physical addiction, but he does have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, using it as a coping mechanism when stressed, depressed, upset, or in need of courage. He's been uprooted to a totally new environment and is trying to completely change his life. And all that is before he got killed, had the woman he loved turned into the thing he hated most, got killed again and was turned by the woman he loved into the thing he hated most, learned about the betrayal, went amok, pulled himself back together before he did anything permanent to harm the people he cared about, got killed again, was tortured, learned that everything he believed about his brother and himself was a lie, gave up on life, and was brought back to life. He should have started therapy back in season 4, possibly in the aftermath of all the 4A stuff.

And that would have created another potentially interesting non-romantic relationship if he'd gone to Archie for help with something deeper than an engagement (seriously, these people see the shrink for odd things -- even with all her baggage, Emma goes to him to talk about prophetic visions, and even with all his issues, Hook goes to him to talk about getting David's blessing for an engagement). That would have given him a relationship that wasn't about Emma and could have been part of his rehabilitation, since he does owe Archie some atonement. In the scenes in the past couple of weeks, the two characters/actors have played well off each other. There's an interesting dynamic between Archie's mellow calm and Hook's intensity. But they also have things in common. Both are far older than their physical appearance (since Archie was an adult when Gepetto was a child, and Gepetto is now an old man) and both have some dark stuff in their pasts that they've gone to fairly extreme measures to make up for (Archie got himself turned into a cricket, so he knows self loathing).

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

When you put it that way, this story is not romantic at all.  

Nope. It's disturbing as hell, and it makes Emma look really bad. OTOH, I still am having a hard time taking all the character-destroying carnage this season seriously. Hook's predicament seems all too realistic compared to Emma's plastic responses and behavior. I think it's a combination of the lopsided writing I mentioned, and Colin having the brooding self-loathing part down to a T. 

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

And that would have created another potentially interesting non-romantic relationship if he'd gone to Archie for help with something deeper than an engagement ...There's an interesting dynamic between Archie's mellow calm and Hook's intensity. But they also have things in common. Both are far older than their physical appearance (since Archie was an adult when Gepetto was a child, and Gepetto is now an old man) and both have some dark stuff in their pasts that they've gone to fairly extreme measures to make up for (Archie got himself turned into a cricket, so he knows self loathing).

Ah, man! This really would have been a good dynamic to explore. I doubt the writers even remembered the connection between the two charatcers, or realize the potential to mine the parallels. This Show is deeper than the writers ever intended or actualized.

Hook has zero support system, unlike all the other main charatcers. His role has been to support Emma, but she really doesn't have the time or the focus to return the favor. The Captain Charming bromance runs hot and cold, as does Hook's relationship with Henry. Snow had a one-on-one conversation with him for the first time ever in the last episode, and she too couldn't tell how emotionally distressed he was. I wish there had been some tiny reference to him meeting up with his half-brother and Nemo until they were ready to leave Storybrooke. But there's been nothing. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Maybe it's because I'm not that invested, but I don't feel angry at Emma.  I feel sorry for Hook, but not overly.  I just don't really care that much.  It's obvious they will reconcile eventually.  I'm not excited about Hook's "adventure" on the Nautilus, nor am I intrigued how Emma will respond in the next episode.  It's all so contrived.  

Speaking of which, where the heck is the little brother.  This show is soooooooo interested in exploring family relationships.  Maybe since he forgave Hook for killing his father, Hook will be assured that David will feel the same?   That would be simplistic, but what else is new.

[jhlipton]

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The current one is a bigger wrong and a more personal one

I have a hard time seeing this as a "personal" wrong.  Hook killed a guy who happened to be David's father.  But on a show where everyone is everyone else's second cousin thrice removed, I fail to see that as a "personal" crime.  David wouldn't forgive him not because Hook knowingly did him grievous harm, but because Davis is a jerk.

Edited March 31, 2017 by jhlipton

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I have a hard time seeing this as a "personal" wrong.  Hook killed a guy who happened to be David's father.  But on a show where everyone is everyone else's second cousin thrice removed, I fail to see that as a "personal" crime.  David wouldn't forgive him not because Hook knowingly did him grievous harm, but because Davis is a jerk.

Yes, logically it shouldn't be any different from them knowing he killed lots of people in his history, but emotionally, there would be a difference in knowing that it was his father rather than a random peasant, even if Hook didn't know it was his father until now.

But I was mostly comparing it to Hook's other secrets that he's kept. With the kiss curse, in addition to keeping quiet because Zelena threatened Henry if he told, he hesitated to come clean because it would have required admitting what he did to Ariel, which really wasn't that bad or much that the others would have reason to care about (did anyone other than Belle, Snow, and Regina even know Ariel then?). The extent of his confession would be "Zelena was able to curse me because I felt guilty for refusing to give Blackbeard my ship in exchange for information about where Eric was." The obvious follow-up was "but apparently Ariel found Eric just fine anyway, and then I ended up trading my ship to Blackbeard to get the magic bean that allowed me to find Emma and bring her here." So, really, not exactly something they'd hold against him, though he obviously felt bad about the way he behaved during the Missing Year, in general. With the hand blackmail stuff, it would have meant confessing that he blackmailed Rumple to get his hand back rather than cluing Belle into what he'd figured out (not that Belle would have listened at that time), and that Rumple was then able to force him to help hat the Apprentice, and used that to blackmail him into silence -- which Hook then broke when Emma's well-being was at stake (not that she ever found out or got his message). Again, not really anything that bad that they would care about because it didn't personally affect them, but it happened during the time he was supposedly trying to be a better person. This secret was more serious because it involved murder, and personal because it affected Emma's family, but it happened in the distant past before he was trying to change.

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Maybe it's because I'm not that invested, but I don't feel angry at Emma.

I don't feel angry at Emma because it's just so ridiculously contrived. It's not only somewhat out of character for her, but out of character for your basic human being. I mean, if you have the ring, you know he's probably not planning to propose right that minute, since he would need the ring to propose, so why would you assume he's talking about proposing rather than something else? They're so wildly inconsistent between when she has a superpower that allows her to detect lies and when she's utterly oblivious to him being in abject misery that you can't really blame the character.

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Speaking of which, where the heck is the little brother.

We didn't even know he was still in town. I can see not wanting to hire the additional actor just for a cameo, but maybe we should have had some reference to Hook meeting up with his brother, or were they trying to talk, or does his brother still want nothing to do with him even if he no longer wants to kill him. I think we also needed more of Nemo before we got Hook going to him for advice. At the very least, maybe he should have been the one Hook was talking to about whether or not David would accept him as Emma's husband, to set up Hook talking to him some more (though I still think Hook should have been seeing Archie going back to maybe 3B and him wrestling with no longer liking being a pirate but not really knowing what he was now). And, again, there could be a reference to him just having visited Nemo in other episodes without Nemo having to be present.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

But at least in the Dark Hook situation, Emma forced Killian to become something he didn't want to become. She gave him no choice and she knew the situation was partially her fault. This time, Emma gave him a choice by...ummm...taking off the engagement ring, giving it back to him, hinting he should leave, and giving him a vague ultimatum, but then immediately assuming he abandoned her? Yeah, this is a mess.

That's why Captain Swan is getting harder for me to root for. Emma consistently takes away Hook's agency. If they get married, it's going to be another Snow and Charming relationship, with the member of the White family making all the decisions. Both couples like to lie instead of deal with their issues. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma consistently takes away Hook's agency. 

Not just agency - Emma is continually the one being propped up.  Hook's doing and has done pretty much all the heavy lifting in this relationship.  (Except when Emma went to the Underworld for him, but I guess since the show has forgotten about that, we are supposed to also?)  It's exhausting always being the supportive one in a relationship - even just a friendship and not a romantic relationship.  There needs to be more give and take.  At least in that respect Snowing seems to be pretty fair.  

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Emma has every right to be pissed at him for proposing while keeping the secret

Well, he probably would have waited on the proposal if she hadn't spoiled it. Again, she took away his power of choice, by forcing it to happen. She didn't give him the opportunity to get his shit together before committing. Not that she knew he had anything to figure out, but this whole commitment issue wouldn't be there if she hadn't brought him the ring. He would have probably made the same conclusion she did, that they shouldn't get married until they can start trusting each other.

Edited March 31, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't feel angry at Emma because it's just so ridiculously contrived. It's not only somewhat out of character for her, but out of character for your basic human being. I mean, if you have the ring, you know he's probably not planning to propose right that minute, since he would need the ring to propose, so why would you assume he's talking about proposing rather than something else? They're so wildly inconsistent between when she has a superpower that allows her to detect lies and when she's utterly oblivious to him being in abject misery that you can't really blame the character.

Exactly! All the issues are because of terrible, inconsistent, shallow writing, so that's what I get angry at, not the characters. It can certainly affect how each fan thinks about the characters, but the fact is, it will have absolutely no bearing on the show itself or the relationships thereof. Because on the show, nothing that anybody does matters. Everything is ignored or forgotten. Nothing has repercussions. Relationships go on as before.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Souris

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not just agency - Emma is continually the one being propped up.  Hook's doing and has done pretty much all the heavy lifting in this relationship.  (Except when Emma went to the Underworld for him, but I guess since the show has forgotten about that, we are supposed to also?)  It's exhausting always being the supportive one in a relationship - even just a friendship and not a romantic relationship.  There needs to be more give and take.  At least in that respect Snowing seems to be pretty fair.  

Exactly this.  The show forgetting that Season 5, where Emma actually fought for Hook, ever happened has assassinated their relationship.

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Because on the show, nothing that anybody does matters. Everything is ignored or forgotten. Nothing has repercussions. Relationships go on as before.

Seasons 4, 5, and 6 have all been filler.  All real momentum and consistent development for the story and characters ended in Season 3.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

I don't understand how Emma forced Hook into proposing to her. Sure, she found the ring and basically told him to ask her, but he could have just as easily taken the ring and told her he wanted to make it special and romantic, so she'd just need to wait until he's ready. That's her punishment for digging through his stuff and ruining the surprise. The whole going through his stuff just seemed weird to me anyway, so I just go with Emma was doing laundry and putting it away for him. Still, Hook had complete agency to not ask and he's charming enough to do it in such a way that it doesn't hurt/disappoint Emma too much and still allows him to make his own choices and let Emma know that as well. But plot contrivances are needed, so Hook can't act for himself, bad things happen and drama ensues.

[AshhyOut]

Hook's a grown ass man. Forced into proposing and took away his agency? What? How? She magic'ed him or compelled him to proposing? No she put him in a difficult situation and he himself, CHOSE to propose under those circumstances. Even JM and Colin said this. There was no force of any sort involved.

I now see where the Regina fans are coming from. She was forced to become "evil" too right? I mean Cora forced her to get marry to Leopold, she had no choice to do something differently. Rumple forced her to learn dark magic and to cast the Dark Curse and she had no choice to walk away at any point. Because Cora and Rumple put her in extremely difficult situations, she was forced. No agency whatsoever.

And oh yeah for sure damn those evil Whites. It's all Snow's fault. If only she hadn't told that secret, and got the whole ball rolling. Just like if only Emma hadn't been nosy digging through his stuff and got that whole ball rolling.

Note, I'm not saying Emma isn't wrong. She is but it doesn't negate Hook's wrong. By saying that she forced him to do something is putting all the responsibility and blame on her.  Also her being nosy, while wrong, seems to have eclipsed Hook killing her granddad and lying to her. Which is exactly the moves A&E pull with Regina. They make the other party wrong too, have Regina cry prettily and all of a sudden the other party's crime eclipses her crimes. Seems to be pretty effective. Hmm does this mean we have to stop bashing A&E?

Edited March 31, 2017 by AshhyOut

[KingOfHearts]

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Hook's a grown ass man. Forced into proposing and took away his agency? What? How? She magic'ed him or compelled him to proposing? No she put him in a difficult situation and he himself, CHOSE to propose under those circumstances. Even JM and Colin said this. There was no force of any sort involved.

He was also drunk at the time. She said yes before he could even ask the question. Yes, he could have told her to wait, but she still backed him into a corner. She tried to take the wheel when it wasn't her place.

They're both to blame, imo. The show is just blowing it out of proportion.

Edited April 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Emma put him in a situation where Hook felt pressured into proposing. That's another sign of their unequal status in their relationship. He's been letting her set the pace in everything for far too long. I'm not absolving him of responsibility--he's as much at fault for not asserting himself more as Emma for not noticing how much Hook's needs have been neglected. That drunk proposal was on both of them. 

As for Robert's murder--of course it's a terrible thing. But that doesn't mean Hook deserves to be wrung out to dry. I can't overlook the fact that he was damn near a breakdown from guilt and shame, and Emma wasn't perceptive enough to see it.

The Charming clan have always treated him like an annoying addition to their circle whom they tolerate only for the sake of Emma. And now, that seems magnified 100-fold. Are we supposed to agree with their attitude now that it turns out Hook killed a family member? Does none of his past loyalty and support to them matther? Why would Hook assume that Emma's parents would forgive him when he's barely treated with basic courtesy when they're in a bad mood (Henry's the same)? What about the guilt he's dealing with?  

I simply can't look at Hook's actions in isolation from everything else. This whole situation is messed up, and it's not just Hook's fault. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Rumsy4

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yes, logically it shouldn't be any different from them knowing he killed lots of people in his history, but emotionally, there would be a difference in knowing that it was his father rather than a random peasant, even if Hook didn't know it was his father until now.

I get that.

[Shanna Marie]

I think part of the problem is that it's written so that Hook's reactions are pretty realistic and believable -- for values of "believable" involving all the crazy stuff in this show -- while Emma's reactions fall into the "who does that?" category, so it's easier to relate to Hook in this situation. He's eaten up with guilt and shame, and it's not just about whether or not they forgive him, but also whether or not he can deal with facing them, being constantly reminded of something horrible he did. Even if they're okay with it, he isn't. He was holding off on proposing because he didn't want to do it with this hanging over him, and the only way he could think of to salvage the situation was to erase his memories. I think that's something people can relate to -- though on a more extreme level. There are all kinds of memories I wouldn't mind erasing because I know I hurt someone and even though they're okay with it, it keeps popping into my head.

On the other hand, Emma was turned into a plot puppet to contrive angst. There was the going through his stuff, which seems unlike her, and since it happened offscreen, we didn't get to see the context of how that happened. There was her noticing him being very drunk, but not seeing that as a matter for concern when he was obviously in agony -- and this coming the episode after she used her superpower on him and noticed that something was up when it was less obvious. There was her assuming he was talking about proposing, even though she knew he didn't have the ring on him, which anyone would think would be part of a proposal. Most people who found a ring would have put it back and waited for the proposal, maybe dropped some hints if days went by without the proposal happening, not blurted it out while ignoring his obvious distress. And then when the fight happened, she wasn't listening to what he was saying about the problem. She apparently didn't want to break up, but she gave the ring back and walked out. She was mad at him for not coming to her and working through it together, but she walked away and left it to him to work it out alone, which is contradictory. She gave him an ultimatum without a real finish line, more like "do something, or else," but no clear thing he needed to do to make things right. And then she acted like she was giving up on him when he didn't come home after she gave back the ring and walked off. I can't imagine acting or reacting in quite that way, whether the way the proposal was handled in the first place or the weird non-ultimatum and then distress about him being gone.

So we've got contrivance bouncing off against realistic and relatable.

[Camera One]

It's neither of their faults.  Sometimes, a relationship gets to the point where both people realize they've hit the same emotional roadblock for the umpteenth time, and it's time to move on.

This entire situation is framed from Hook's POV.  He was the one seen worried about getting approval, the one seen dealing with the unstable David, the one seen gutted that the pictures from the storybook show a man he recognized, the one seen agonizing over the newfound knowledge, the one seen grimacing when the ring was found, and the one seen asking an old mentor for advice.  Meanwhile, Emma was MIA for most of it.  As one of the above posters said, it is reminiscent of how we see things from Regina's perspective, so the other characters appear insensitive or callous.  The Writers love writing their ex-villains trying their darnedest but the past always comes back to "punish" them.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

22 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think part of the problem is that it's written so that Hook's reactions are pretty realistic and believable -- for values of "believable" involving all the crazy stuff in this show -- while Emma's reactions fall into the "who does that?" category, so it's easier to relate to Hook in this situation.

This s huge part of it. Emma's barely on-screen for three episodes (she already part-time), and when she is on-screen, she's acting unnaturally. It's hard to relate to her in this situation.

[KingOfHearts]

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The Charming clan have always treated him like an annoying addition to their circle whom they tolerate only for the sake of Emma

It reeks of a social class issue. The majority of the Charmings and Mills family members are nobility. (Whether by birth or marriage.) Hook is a pirate, and pirates are usually enemies to royals. But then again, other than Regina in the Missing Year, they didn't mind Robin.

Edited April 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't see the Charmings as just "tolerating" Hook.  He has become a part of their team.  Yeah, they don't have constant heart-to-hearts with him but that's reserved for Regina.  So Snow squeeing over their first date wasn't enough to show she supported their relationship?  Only David (who people point out hugged Hook when he saw he came back from the dead) calls him a pirate once in a while, and whatever residual distrust he might have could very well be due to the fact that he was Cora's lackey for much of Season 2.  

David was born a shepherd, so for him, it's not really a class thing but more a moral superiority thing.  As a farmer, he clearly had little toleration for thievery and to him, a pirate was a thief and the Enchanted Forest folk may have considered them scum who don't earn an "honest" living. 

I think A&E relies on people sympatheizing with the likes of Regina or the other villains, because they hate the "perfect" good guys who to them are sanctimonious and holier-than-thou.   So to them, Regina, or Rumple, or Hook, or Zelena, are more "human" and relatable, while the paragons of society like Emma, Snow, Charming, the Fairies, etc. aren't.  And that fits with the majority of television audiences who root for the bad boy.  

Frankly, the only reason why I don't feel the same way about Hook as Regina is the Writers don't go all over-the-top with the Charmings fawning over him.  They have a working relationship and now a developing familial one.  Otherwise, he would be another Regina-like presence on the show.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Now that Hook and Emma are in a relationship, and after the times Hook has proved himself, and the things they've all been through together, it's just unbelievable that they fall back on "he's a pirate, and therefore not trustworthy" schtick for the sake of ~drama. There's also the fact that the Charmigns are actually not morally pure, and the way they fawn over Regina is in contrast with the way Hook has to walk on eggshells or risk being thrown out of the inner circle at moment's notice. If Hook has to remain on watch for the rest of his life becasue he's a former pirate in relationship with the savior, then maybe they're not really meant to be together. 

[Mathius]

45 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Frankly, the only reason why I don't feel the same way about Hook as Regina is the Writers don't go all over-the-top with the Charmings fawning over him.  They have a working relationship and now a developing familial one.  Otherwise, he would be another Regina-like presence on the show.

I would be much more OK with that if it weren't for the REC in play.  That just makes it frustrating - I don't want them to fawn over Hook, but to treat him they way they do when he has done so much more good for them than Regina - and not half as much bad - while worshiping at Regina's alter...

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Now that Hook and Emma are in a relationship, and after the times Hook has proved himself, and the things they've all been through together, it's just unbelievable that they fall back on "he's a pirate, and therefore not trustworthy" schtick for the sake of ~drama.

Exactly.  I'm sick of the inconsistency of it all, too.  Snow, Charming and Henry need to choose how they feel about him and stick with it.  They just keep going up and down, when at least Regina, Rumple, Zelena, Belle and (until recently) Emma have held pretty consistent views of Hook.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

This entire situation is framed from Hook's POV.  He was the one seen worried about getting approval, the one seen dealing with the unstable David, the one seen gutted that the pictures from the storybook show a man he recognized, the one seen agonizing over the newfound knowledge, the one seen grimacing when the ring was found, and the one seen asking an old mentor for advice.  Meanwhile, Emma was MIA for most of it.

That really doesn't help matters. For us to sympathize much with Emma, we needed to see how she came to be going through his chest. It makes a difference whether she was just putting away his laundry or whether she was prying. We needed to see her reaction to the ring. Was she happy? Scared? Did she spend the day psyching herself up and talking herself into the idea of making that kind of commitment, or was she just plain happy about it? Or was this what was going on right before he came home, so she was still reeling from finding it and didn't think to put it back before rushing downstairs? Then we needed to follow her more in the aftermath of the fight. The camera stayed on him and showed what actions he took, but we might have felt different if we'd followed her upstairs, maybe shown her lying on the bed and crying, then hearing the door shut and jumping up to run after him. Or if we'd known what she was doing the rest of that day. Did she go looking for him? Did she try to call him? Did she get out her phone and start to call him but stop herself? Did she talk to anyone?

Though it really didn't help that, based on the fight scene and the way they wrote it, neither we nor Hook really knew what she wanted of him. She was talking about working through it together but said they'd talk when he was ready for that, but then walked away before he could say he was willing to. He can't exactly go off on his own to figure out how to work together. If it's about working together, you don't run off. You drag him over to the sofa, sit down, and talk.

17 minutes ago, Mathius said:

I'm sick of the inconsistency of it all, too.  Snow, Charming and Henry need to choose how they feel about him and stick with it.

That's the other problem. They're inconsistent enough that Hook's fears of how they'll react are perfectly valid. He can never know where he stands with them. David went from hugging him on his return from the dead to calling him "pirate" like it was an insult and saying he needed a dishonest person when Hook had done nothing at all since coming back from the dead to earn that ire. And that was apparently a day or so ago. He's been all buddy-buddy with Hook before, only to turn on him again. There is absolutely no guarantee that David would forgive him. Hook could easily have put Emma in the difficult position of choosing between him and her father.

[andromeda331]

I really wish we had gotten to see Emma finding the ring and her reaction to it. She was grew up wondering why no one ever picked her and in season four worried about dating Hook because every man she was ever involved with was dead. Not to mention Henry's father sent her to jail for his crimes. What did it feel like to see the ring? That Hook loved her and wanted to marry her? Was she happy? Was she scared? Did it remind her of Wash proposing and ended up being a flying monkey (why don't they ever capitalize on the jokes? Or the crazy Snow had a one night stand with Frankenstein and her daughter dated a flying monkey). Did she want to tell her mom?

[AshhyOut]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

she still backed him into a corner.

 

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Emma put him in a situation where Hook felt pressured into proposing.

Nope sorry. That doesn't fly for me when mostly everything on this show is "backed into a corner" or "pressured" into doing. Mostly everything Regina, Rumple, Cora, etc has been framed as "backed into a corner" or "pressured." But I don't see the majority of this board giving Regina or Rumple any breaks for that. That's just double standards. If Emma is to share in the blame because she backed Hook into a corner then I guess there can't be anymore complaints about Regina because 10 year old Snow and Cora backed her into a corner and they should share the blame for the path Regina subsequently took. Oh and let's not forget Neal. He was pressured by August to leave Emma too and since Emma backed him into a corner to let her go retrieve those watches, then Emma and Neal are equally at fault, with a side of August.

 

On 3/30/2017 at 11:13 PM, Rumsy4 said:

Colin having the brooding self-loathing part down to a T. 

Even this. This is exactly what A&E and Regina stans say about Lana. That Lana is such a fantastic actress that she makes you feel her pain and misery when she cries.

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

while Emma's reactions fall into the "who does that?"

Not really. Her actions are real and grounded enough. People who live together go through each other's stuff all the time. It's a bad thing for sure but it happens. I don't think he was obviously drunk. He was drinking but no way believe that a couple of shots would put him under considering all the drinking he does. And she thought he was in agony over the proposal. Yeah that's in character too. This is the guy who confessed that his "darkest" secret was kissing her and realizing that he could fall for her. I'm pretty sure the dude looked like he was in agony then too. That's why she said let me make it easy for you. Combine with her excitement over finding the ring? Yeah she was oblivious and probably a bit selfish due to her excitement but that's real too.

 

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

She was mad at him for not coming to her and working through it together, but she walked away and left it to him to work it out alone, which is contradictory.

Yes it is. But then again so is Hook. He always asks her to trust him but he himself has never trusted her. He wants her to share her feelings and problems with him but he then he doesn't do that either. And before anyone says she never asks, she has asked him plenty of times, "what's wrong" and not once has he given her the truth until forced to. If the response to this is, well just asking "what's wrong" isn't good enough, she should push harder, that's not really Emma. She's not a let me get in your space and force you to tell me what's wrong pushy type. (Unless it's Regina but we know everyone is out of character when it comes to her.) That contradiction is completely the nature of their relationship since Day 1 and has never changed. Because they have the exact same issues, they have the same specific needs but their own personal issues keep them from fulfilling it for the other.

 

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

salvage the situation was to erase his memories.

I don't know if this is relatable either but it certainly is out of character for Hook. The guy who kept mementos of people he killed? Now he wants to erase his memories and right in their home by the front door where anyone can walk in at anytime? Ok yeah yeah, he was in agony and desperate so that was his response but that excuse could be used for anyone and anywhere too but the focus seems to be on Emma's OOC.

By the way I don't find Emma sympathetic but neither is Hook. They're both flawed and it doesn't help that their flaws are practically identical. I do appreciate that A&E let them both be flawed but it's not something I care to watch especially with mediocre writers. This is why I said their story is "realistic" but makes for crappy tv entertainment. They only work as the "adventure" couple who does things and once in a while throw in some fluffly romantic moment. Anytime this show wants to get "deep" and focus on their relationship, they and their story sucks. So maybe A&E had it right with the let them just fight monsters.

[Curio]

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Nope sorry. That doesn't fly for me when mostly everything on this show is "backed into a corner" or "pressured" into doing. Mostly everything Regina, Rumple, Cora, etc has been framed as "backed into a corner" or "pressured." But I don't see the majority of this board giving Regina or Rumple any breaks for that. That's just double standards. If Emma is to share in the blame because she backed Hook into a corner then I guess there can't be anymore complaints about Regina because 10 year old Snow and Cora backed her into a corner and they should share the blame for the path Regina subsequently took. Oh and let's not forget Neal. He was pressured by August to leave Emma too and since Emma backed him into a corner to let her go retrieve those watches, then Emma and Neal are equally at fault, with a side of August.

 

It's entirely possible to view different situations with different standards because of the varying circumstances and people involved. In Emma's situation with Neal, any reasonable person would recognize that Emma was a teenager and was much more vulnerable and naive than she is now. There's a reason we have distinctions between the juvenile court system and the criminal court system—the law recognizes that younger people are not as mature as adults and are less blameworthy for their actions. Saying that Emma is equally at fault for something Neal did to her when she was a teenager is not a valid comparison to an event that happened when she was 30-years-old.

You're also comparing drastically different situations. We can judge Regina, Rumple, and Neal for their situations harsher than we do Killian's situation because of what they were trying to accomplish. Regina may have felt pressured into marrying a much older man, but her ultimate goal was to get revenge on a 10-year-old girl for something extremely petty. Had Regina married Leopold but never committed any murders, we would have much more sympathy for her. Neal may have felt pressure from August to allow Emma to fulfill her destiny, but his action required sending a teenage girl to jail for a crime he committed. Rumple has always been given some sympathy for his initial turn to the dark side because he wanted to protect Bae, but everything he has done after Neal's death has been extremely selfish.

Killian's situation is different because his ultimate goal wasn't about hurting Emma, it was about making her happy. The lie inevitably hurt Emma anyways, but the action of proposing to Emma wasn't malicious. Trying to kill Snow White and sending Emma to jail are both inherently bad acts; asking Emma for her hand in marriage is inherently a good act. This is why it doesn't become a double standard. If Emma were to adopt a kitten because she felt "pressured" to by Henry but had to keep it a secret from Killian, are we really going to put that in the same category as Neal sending Emma to jail? The logic doesn't track. The intent is key here, and Killian's intent was to give Emma her heart's desire and make her happy, which is why he ultimately chose to get down on one knee. We can analyze Killian's actions and acknowledge that he did the wrong thing by not coming clean to Emma right away, but to put him in the same category as wanting to murder Snow, sending Emma to jail, or killing random villagers is untenable. A better comparison might be to compare Rumple giving the fake dagger to Belle as an engagement offering and Killian proposing to Emma knowing he had a huge secret on his mind.

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People who live together go through each other's stuff all the time.

No. Couples who don't respect each other go through each other's stuff all the time. If you respect your partner and trust them, there is absolutely no reason to go through their private belongings. (Unless you're searching for something and ask their permission first.) There have been many times I could have snooped through some emails or letters, but because I respected my partner and consider myself a halfway decent person, I didn't do it. When couples live together they will share common spaces like dresser drawers and food cabinets, but there's a difference between putting away laundry and opening a sock drawer versus opening up a sea chest that has a latch on it, noticing that the chest has a wedding ring box inside it, and then opening up the wedding ring box and trying on the ring. It's just a stark contrast between Killian asking to see Emma's box of childhood items and Emma going through Killian's sea chest of items. (Not that the writers made this connection.) Now it's entirely possible that Killian kept his clothes in his sea chest and Emma was putting away laundry, but she still had to open that black box, take the ring out, and keep it on her person. If the ring wasn't inside the black box, what if it wasn't meant for her? What if it was a ring that belonged to Milah and Killian had a different ring planned for Emma? It's a shame we'll never know what went down because the writers don't care about Emma's point of view in any of this and we'll forever guess what happened offscreen.

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I don't think he was obviously drunk. He was drinking but no way believe that a couple of shots would put him under considering all the drinking he does.

 

Unless you ignore canon (and the science of alcohol), Killian was clearly drunk. He may not have been stumbling and slurring his words, but the man had, at the bare minimum, an entire bottle of rum during the course of one day. And it looked like he didn't eat much of anything on top of it. Even someone with the highest alcohol tolerance would feel something. Let's look at the canon:

• Killian was already drinking at Granny's by 10:20 am.
• By this time, he already drank half a bottle of rum.
• We don't know what Killian was up to the rest of the day, but based on his behavior, we can assume he probably didn't leave Granny's. We can also assume he was probably drinking that entire time because, later that day, we can see that he has four shots in front of him.
• Earlier in the morning, Killian had an entire bottle of rum in front of him and one shot glass. Later that evening, he doesn't have a bottle and has to order each shot individually. What most likely happened is that Granny cut him off and didn't allow him to keep a bottle at the table, but she allowed him to order individual shots throughout the day. A bartender doesn't do that unless they can visibly see the person is getting too drunk for their own good.
• And here we can see that Killian hasn't even touched any of his food. That's just going to make him more susceptible to becoming drunk.

Hook may be a pirate, but he's not a robot. He's going to feel that alcohol. If he wasn't drunk, the writers wouldn't have put in Emma's line about tasting Captain Morgan. When someone imbibes so much rum that their breath reeks of alcohol, I wouldn't count on that person being sober. A cop certainly wouldn't give the benefit of the doubt to a driver who reeked of alcohol. 

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By the way I don't find Emma sympathetic but neither is Hook. They're both flawed and it doesn't help that their flaws are practically identical.

I guess we're arguing the same point after all. No one is throwing Emma's character under the bus, but we're allowed to call her out when we feel like she's acting out of character, just like when we called Hook killing Robert out of character. This primarily comes down to the writers not caring about their characters. It's not like people are "picking sides" in this Emma/Killian situation—we can say that Emma broke some boundaries by snooping through Killian's sea chest and question why she put him on the spot and not allow him to give her a grand, romantic gesture, but also say that Hook was a coward for not coming clean before the proposal and for attempting to burn his memories. Just because people are critical of characters' actions doesn't mean they're placing 100% of the blame on them. This reminds me of some of the debates that happened back when Emma turned Killian into a Dark One because people wanted to "pick sides," but the truth is more complicated than ignoring one side of the story. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Great post @Curio. You explained everything so well!