Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Curio]

I haven't watched the finale yet, but I did catch the final 5 minutes where Emma told Hook "I love you." While it's nice that Emma finally said those three words out loud without any crisis going on and without one of them on the brink of death or possessed by a Dark One curse, it's still an incredibly underwhelming way to finish out their relationship arc this season. At this point, it's obvious that Emma and Hook love each other, they've said it numerous times to each other this season, and more importantly, their actions show their love for each other so much more than words ever could. So to have all their angst this season get wrapped up with a simple "I love you" felt like...well no shit, Sherlock. We've known this for a while.

It would be one thing if I was confident in this show lasting for a few more seasons, but there's never any guarantees in terms of renewals and cancellations, so next season could very well be the last. If Season 6 is the final season, it pisses me off that the only progress Emma made from Season 4's finale to Season 5's finale is that instead of saying "I love you" in a moment of danger, she can now say it in a moment of calm. You don't need 23 episodes to make that progress, even for someone as guarded as Emma Swan. This is the curse of the slow burn—it's great if the show lasts until Season 10, but if it ends next season, I'll feel cheated we didn't get a much bigger moment to finish out Season 5.

It would have been so simple to have Emma mention something about looking forward to their future together, even though there will be plenty of monsters and curses to battle along the way, but as long as they're together it'll be worth it. There didn't have to be any talks of moving in together or engagement questions, just a simple conversation that lasts longer than 30 seconds.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Curio

[Serena]

On 14/5/2016 at 4:09 AM, Camera One said:

They are consistently not willing to devote any time to the Emma/parents relationship.  It was clear they created the whole character-assassinating babynapping retcon solely for the suspense/conflict/surprise! factor, because Emma didn't even get more screentime with Snowing for it.  5A was perfect for Emma/parents, but Snow got more screentime with Lancelot and Charming got more screentime with Arthur, than they got with their own daughter.  Emma and Snow hasn't gotten a "Breaking Glass" type full-out episode adventure with just the two of them since 2A.  

If I didn't know for sure it wasn't true, I would think that JMo and Gosh have some kind of Marguiles/Panjabi or Fillon/Katic feud going on! But no, Adam and Eddy have great actors who are perfectly friendly with each other off screen, which other shows would KILL to have, and they're wasting them.

[Curio]

18 hours ago, Serena said:

If I didn't know for sure it wasn't true, I would think that JMo and Gosh have some kind of Marguiles/Panjabi or Fillon/Katic feud going on! But no, Adam and Eddy have great actors who are perfectly friendly with each other off screen, which other shows would KILL to have, and they're wasting them.

If anything, I'd think there's more of a Marguiles/Panjabi thing going on with Lana and Jen because they're rarely seen hanging out together outside of the show, have a somewhat forced on-screen chemistry, never do joint interviews, and even tend to contradict each other in interviews, yet they still get plenty of screen time together.

[Serena]

Yes, but the problem with Marguiles/Panjabi was that they refused to share scenes together. Jen and Lana don't seem to be friends off set, but they don't need to be, and they don't refuse to share screentime.

And I think their scenes are awkward, but apparently the fans of the relationship think they have OMG SO MUCH CHEMISTRY, so that's all that matters.

I mean, I don't think Jen and Lana elevate the writing of SQ scenes (while, for example, Jen and Colin surely do elevate the writing of CS; case in point, a lot of favourite CS moments seem to be their improv), but the writing is so bad, not even Meryl Streep could. And it's not "simply" bad (like the writing for Henry), it is also actively demeaning to Emma. If I were Jen - who really loves Emma - I also would find it hard to muster much enthusiasm for scenes that amount to "And now Emma sits here, silent, thinking about how much she sucks. She can only talk when apologizing to Regina." Like, who wants to play that?

[Curio]

37 minutes ago, Serena said:

I mean, I don't think Jen and Lana elevate the writing of SQ scenes (while, for example, Jen and Colin surely do elevate the writing of CS; case in point, a lot of favourite CS moments seem to be their improv), but the writing is so bad, not even Meryl Streep could. And it's not "simply" bad (like the writing for Henry), it is also actively demeaning to Emma. If I were Jen - who really loves Emma - I also would find it hard to muster much enthusiasm for scenes that amount to "And now Emma sits here, silent, thinking about how much she sucks. She can only talk when apologizing to Regina." Like, who wants to play that?

I almost have to wonder if Adam & Eddy weren't expecting Jen and Colin to click on screen as much as they have. I know they always hoped that Captain Hook would eventually work out as a romantic parter for Emma when they introduced him in Season 2, but I don't know if it was ever planned for their relationship to evolve into the most important relationship in Emma's life. I know that chemistry is a subjective thing, but like you said, I've seen numerous times where Jen and Colin have taken what could have been ordinary dialogue on page and made it something extra special and memorable on screen. Meanwhile, I've never really gotten that vibe from the Regina and Emma scenes, even though that's the main relationship Adam & Eddy have focused most of their efforts on in their scripts.

[tri4335]

2 hours ago, Serena said:

Yes, but the problem with Marguiles/Panjabi was that they refused to share scenes together. Jen and Lana don't seem to be friends off set, but they don't need to be, and they don't refuse to share screentime.

And I think their scenes are awkward, but apparently the fans of the relationship think they have OMG SO MUCH CHEMISTRY, so that's all that matters.

I mean, I don't think Jen and Lana elevate the writing of SQ scenes (while, for example, Jen and Colin surely do elevate the writing of CS; case in point, a lot of favourite CS moments seem to be their improv), but the writing is so bad, not even Meryl Streep could. And it's not "simply" bad (like the writing for Henry), it is also actively demeaning to Emma. If I were Jen - who really loves Emma - I also would find it hard to muster much enthusiasm for scenes that amount to "And now Emma sits here, silent, thinking about how much she sucks. She can only talk when apologizing to Regina." Like, who wants to play that?

JMO and LP have always reminded me of Sarah Jessica Parker and Kim Cattrall. Two actresses who don't really connect outside of work but are able to put those feelings aside and work well together on screen.  SJP was the star of SITC but KC was the break out star. The same can be said of OUAT. JMO is one of the top billed stars but LP is getting a great deal of screen time because the writers want to write for LP and the audience responded to her.  But the main bosses (ABC exes) consider JMO the star and she is more recognized outside of the OUAT fandom, look at the promos (JMO out in front), JMO gets alot of national media attention.  So it is not only that Emma has to put up with Regina but JMO in a way has to put up with LP in those scenes and why I believe that JMO said she is okay with the series ending after 6 seasons.  If the series reaches the point where contracts need to be renewed, I expect to see LP get some designation of "with" next to her name to distinguish her as one of the stars but I also wouldn't be surprised to see JMO and GG not renew at this point.  If that happens, I don't think LP can carry the show but I fully expect that JMO and GG would have a jobs very quickly. Other than RC, I don't think that is necessarily true for any of the other cast members.

Speaking of GG, she is still considered the top billing but I think she recognized that she was sidelined and responded by starting her family, which in the end works well for her career. She is getting paid well, has top billing on her resume and will have the children she wants without missing out on other opportunities.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Curio said:

Lana and Jen ...have a somewhat forced on-screen chemistry

 

2 hours ago, Serena said:

And I think their scenes are awkward, but apparently the fans of the relationship think they have OMG SO MUCH CHEMISTRY, so that's all that matters.

I mean, I don't think Jen and Lana elevate the writing of SQ scenes (while, for example, Jen and Colin surely do elevate the writing of CS; case in point, a lot of favourite CS moments seem to be their improv), but the writing is so bad, not even Meryl Streep could. And it's not "simply" bad (like the writing for Henry), it is also actively demeaning to Emma. If I were Jen - who really loves Emma - I also would find it hard to muster much enthusiasm for scenes that amount to "And now Emma sits here, silent, thinking about how much she sucks. She can only talk when apologizing to Regina." Like, who wants to play that?

The one-on-one scenes between Jen and Lana that focus on their "friendship" are always awkward. And tbh, the awkwardness seems to be on Jen's side. She acts like Emma is walking on eggshells around Regina. Regina lets loose lovely bon mots like telling Emma she eats like a child, and calling her car a pig sty. Emma just takes them becasue she's like the unpopular girl suddenly befriended by the most popular girl in high school, and she doesn't want to mess it up. 

JMo plays the Swan Fire dynamic in a slightly different but related manner. That dynamic is also tinged with Jmo playing Emma off as just a little deferential. Emma seems to regress into the 17 year old who looked up to Neal. In her most recent SF scene at the beginning of S5B, she practically gave off a "17 year old girl" vibe. The power imbalance is obvious.

With Captain Swan, the power imbalance has been on the other end of the spectrum. Killian is the one who has been the most insecure. However, there has also been an equality in that both of them challenge the other in a positive way. It also comes across as a mature, adult relationship. Also, with 5B, it seems like they are both finally on equal footing when it comes to relationship security and trust. That's why it broke my heart a little when Killian asked Emma if she was still feeling guilty over his return. That shows the unhealthy nature of Emma's friendship with Regina, and how it can negatively affect her other relationships as well. In all of S4B, Emma definitely seemed more interested in Regina's Happy Ending than anything else. And after one whole season, we got the same thing in the 5B finale. That was the most disappointing thing of all. 

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's why it broke my heart a little when Killian asked Emma if she was still feeling guilty over his return. That shows the unhealthy nature of Emma's friendship with Regina, and how it can negatively affect her other relationships as well. In all of S4B, Emma definitely seemed more interested in Regina's Happy Ending than anything else. And after one whole season, we got the same thing in the 5B finale. That was the most disappointing thing of all. 

That bothered me to no end because Emma fought like hell this season for Hook, and her future, and she had to bury that. She doesn't get to be as happy as she wants to be, or should be because of Regina. I'm not saying don't care about her pain, but life is so effin' short, especially in a place like Storybrooke, that I'd think someone would wanna take full advantage of the moments they have.

But when it comes to Emma, there's always a double standard at play. Forget about everyone else living in stasis for 28 years. They were condemned to living their lives on a loop without even realizing it. Emma though, she remembers what her life was like. I don't know, maybe Regina is getting paid back because of what her curse inflicted on Emma for 28 years.

[Curio]

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

That bothered me to no end because Emma fought like hell this season for Hook, and her future, and she had to bury that. She doesn't get to be as happy as she wants to be, or should be because of Regina.

Emma's life would be so much happier and carefree if she just cut Regina out of her life for good. Just because they're both Henry's moms doesn't mean they have to be friends or live in the same city. Henry can go back and forth between their households for a few years until he goes off to college, and then it really doesn't matter whether or not Emma and Regina live in the same city for the kid's sake. Let's just convince Adam & Eddy to jump to that part of the story instead.

[Rumsy4]

No college will accept Henry. He doesn't go to school. heeeeh

[MaiLuna]

I'm rewatching season 4 with my mom and the Snow/Emma relationship is frustrating me again. Emma is supposed to babysit Neal. It's cute that Emma is trying to bond with his brother, but I think bonding with her long lost mother should be the priority. Snow couldn't take one hour hike away from Neal (that name is still weird) but when Emma was going to move back to New York at the end of season 3 the Charmings were like "oh...bummer". Why didn't they try to convince her to stay? Ugh. I know she must feel very disconnected from Emma because she met her when she was already an adult, but at least TRY. Try to get to know her, talk and make up for lost time. /rant over. 

[mjgchick]

I really hope in S6 Adam and Eddy does work on Emmas relationship with her parents. Her and Killian are good. Her and Henry is ok when he's not being a little shit and well she and Regina is whatever. I was so spoiled in S1 with Emma and MM but I want to see Emma and her mother Snow not the friend who took her in. I admit Snow did make it up in 5B when she was always encouraging Emma to have hop about Killian but damn the writers had a missed opportunity during Dark Swan when it came to Emma and her parents.

[Faemonic]

There's some  discussion on the Writers thread about Parilla's influence on character relationships writing: She asked for Regal Believer, she got it. But she also suggested Hooked Queen. I would actually have been on board with Hooked Queen for as long as they're challenged, but the narrative imperative of this Universe seems to really hate that. How well would that have gone over with Cora and Rumple in the mix, on the level of character relationships?

[Dianthus]

As I've said before, I shipped Hooked Queen for, like, a hot second, but considering what we got, I'm so glad it didn't happen! It would've been terrible to see Hook become just a(nother) cheerleader for dumb ol' Reggie, who can't appreciate what she has anyway.

[kitticup]

I can see Hook and Regina having an antagonistic friends with benefits type relationship.  I don't see them going the distance, and Hook ultimately committing to Emma.  I would worry about Hook being gutted to prop up Regina.  

[profdanglais]

Hook and Regina are too similar to be catalysts for change for each other. They'd be OK as a villain couple, being hot and plotting evil together but I can't see there being any genuine love between them and no possibility for character growth. What could be great is if they'd had a physical relationship pre-curse, how they dealt with that in the present-day, and the emotional fallout with Emma and Robin could be really interesting. Or I should say could have been interesting, I do not want to see that retconned into S6. 

[Curio]

2 hours ago, profdanglais said:

Hook and Regina are too similar to be catalysts for change for each other. They'd be OK as a villain couple, being hot and plotting evil together but I can't see there being any genuine love between them and no possibility for character growth.

On the surface Hook and Regina appear to be very similar, but if you dig down into their core beliefs and their true personality types, they're total opposites. So sure, they could at first be like, "Hey, you're a misunderstood villain? Me too! You love wearing black and showing too much cleavage? Me too! You hate Rumplestiltskin? Me too! You like sex, I like sex, let's do this." But after a few weeks, there'd be some serious issues that would absolutely destroy any possibility of any future together. Hook probably could never fully understand why Regina blamed a 10-year-old for telling a secret instead of blaming the villain who crushed Daniel's heart. He would roll his eyes any time Regina had a pity party. Regina would hate that Hook isn't afraid to call her out when she's being unreasonable. The writers never explored this with Robin and Regina for some reason, but Regina mentioning Emma's "pigsty" car means she doesn't like dirty places. (How was this never brought up when Regina visited Robin's tents?) Hook on the other hand doesn't seem to care much about that kind of stuff and could live just about anywhere. Hook blames himself too much for his issues, Regina blames other people too much for her issues. It just wouldn't work.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Curio

[Faemonic]

58 minutes ago, Curio said:

"Hey, you're a misunderstood villain? Me too! You love wearing black and showing too much cleavage? Me too! You hate Rumplestiltskin? Me too! You like sex, I like sex, let's do this." 

Bwah! This. This is Hooked Queen in a Dianthus minute.

 

But yeah, my headcanon Regina would be too loyal to Rumple to want to get between Captain Hook and his Crocodile (but too loyal to Cora to not have a go at the Gold.) Besides, without magic Hook will always be minor league evil, but his attitude is less pliant than Daniel or Robin, so would that be worth it to Regina? I think she'd think about it and come out with an unconflicted "Nope!" Besides, Cora would turn our Captain inside-out and then make him explode if Regina liked him as more than a boytoy, because he doesn't even have a Lordship. 

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Hook probably could never fully understand why Regina blamed a 10-year-old for telling a secret instead of blaming the villain who crushed Daniel's heart. He would roll his eyes any time Regina had a pity party. Regina would hate that Hook isn't afraid to call her out when she's being unreasonable. The writers never explored this with Robin and Regina for some reason, but Regina mentioning Emma's "pigsty" car means she doesn't like dirty places. (How was this never brought up when Regina visited Robin's tents?) Hook on the other hand doesn't seem to care much about that kind of stuff and could live just about anywhere. Hook blames himself too much for his issues, Regina blames other people too much for her issues. It just wouldn't work.

He did bring up the curse because a 10 year old told a secret back in 5x11 when Regina went to "reason" with him. 

I like that he reminds her of her past, which he is about the only to do anymore, and the things she did. One of my favorite things in 3x12 was when sarcastically congratulated her for laying waste to the land with the dark curse. I still laugh at the line delivery, and Regina's annoyed reaction. 

I think when it comes to Robin, I find it really stupid that the important conversations like Regina's usage of fireballs happened off screen. Why would they not want this conversation to happen for all to hear? Or the one about the way to handle Zelena's visitations with the baby? It went from you'll never be able to see her, to supervised visits, and then not talking about it at all when Regina decided she trusted Zelena while Robin absolutely did not.

[KingOfHearts]

After Hook sacrificed his life for Emma, she literally went through hell to get him back, and they got confirmed as True Love, the payoff is Emma is comfortable with saying "I love you" now? Really? That just boggles my mind. I wonder how much more it's going to take to get them to move in together or even for a proposal to happen. I'm not sure what they're waiting on. There's no way they can't be open to getting married after everything in S5. Wouldn't they want to have a wedding before another deadly threat strikes?

[Camera One]

Getting engaged is a huge step and a couple needs to go through way more obstacles before they can make such a commitment including walking through fire, drowning, drinking poison, falling on several swords and sacrificing their first, second, third, fourth and fifth borns.  The next logical step for Hook and Emma is naturally the "In a relationship" status on Facebook but that shouldn't happen until Season 10 at the earliest.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Camera One

[Mari]

Well, naturally you'd need to have your much-longer, far more suffering, pseudo-bestie to have become completely happy with her life, so that you can look at her bliss (achieved through taking emotional risks despite the many, many times her total happiness has been thwarted) and realize that seeing her that happy means that it's possible to be that happy, if only you are able to take that risk.

[Shanna Marie]

Speaking of pseudo-besties, I was thinking about this after some discussion in the writers thread about the attempts to parallel Regina and Emma, but why would Regina and Emma want to be friends, even if you remove that pesky trying to kill her and her parents issue? What common ground or interests do they have? What would they do together or talk about?

There's Henry, but they seem to have very different approaches to parenting and very different kinds of relationships with him. They team up together to fight bad guys, but while Emma seems to see that as her life's purpose, we now know that Regina hates every minute of it and would be happier being the bad guy. Otherwise, they like totally different kinds of foods, with Regina showing contempt for what Emma likes. Regina's choice of home is an austerely decorated mansion, while Emma's dream home is a cozy Victorian with a white picket fence. Emma appears to have some interest in modern popular culture and plays video games with Henry, while Regina only seems to bring up comic books with Henry when she needs to apologize to him. Just about all their conversations have centered on how sad Regina's life is. They even have very different attitudes toward life, with Emma perhaps taking on more personal responsibility than is healthy for her, assuming the burden of looking after everyone else, while Regina has a hard time taking responsibility for the things she actually did. Emma's content with the status quo almost to a fault, with fears about letting herself want more, while Regina is never quite happy with the status quo and always wants more. I have a hard time imagining how a girls' night out or in with them would go. What would they do and what would they talk about? At best, they might be like "work friends," where they may hang out together in the office and talk about work-related things (replace "work" with "fighting bad guys") but not interact in their leisure time.

That makes it even harder to imagine the romantic relationship that certain fans see as inevitable. You can manage a friendship with someone whose food and housing tastes don't overlap at all with yours and when you only have certain interests in common. It's hard to live with someone when your ideas of home are vastly different, when you'd practically have to cook separate meals, and when you don't have much of anything you can do together. And such vastly different outlooks on life are sure to lead to huge clashes. A person who takes too much responsibility and a person who can't take responsibility is pretty much a recipe for a toxic relationship.

I suppose the "sisters" thing they keep throwing out there may actually be rather accurate, though not in the way they probably mean. Like sisters, they're stuck in a kind of bond that they might not have chosen, thanks to their circumstances. If it weren't for Henry, they could probably go their separate ways without a second thought, but because of that family bond they have a relationship that requires them to be pretty close. Sisters have that bond because of family ties, regardless of how much or how little they have in common.

[Rumsy4]

57 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

You can manage a friendship with someone whose food and housing tastes don't overlap at all with yours and when you only have certain interests in common. It's hard to live with someone when your ideas of home are vastly different, when you'd practically have to cook separate meals, and when you don't have much of anything you can do together. And such vastly different outlooks on life are sure to lead to huge clashes.

Yeah. Well. Regina and Robin were supposed to be soulmates, and they literally had only crypt sex in common. He even said he only feels home in the forest. While Regina turns her nose up at anything she considers not luxuriant enough for her high-class tastes. 

Quote

What would they do and what would they talk about? 

But what would any of the couples in the Show talk about if they were not battling crisis after crisis? We can't imagine such a conversation even for Snowing, who are the longest-standing relationship in the show. Captain Swan fares better than any of the romantic couples, but we haven't seen too much that indicates normal conversations for them either. This is a pervasive problem with the romantic relationships in the Show, and not just a compatibility issue with SQ.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Regina and Robin were supposed to be soulmates, and they literally had only crypt sex in common. He even said he only feels home in the forest. While Regina turns her nose up at anything she considers not luxuriant enough for her high-class tastes.

True. But they never really defined soulmates. Maybe all it meant was great sex? Anyway, that doesn't really have any impact on whether this wonderful female friendship they keep talking about in interviews has any foundation to it. I get the impression that the writers haven't really thought about it. They just say it's a great friendship, and at least one of the actors involved has referred to them being like sisters because the friendship is so great. And yet if they had to just show them being friends, I'm not sure how they could write it.

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

We can't imagine such a conversation even for Snowing, who are the longest-standing relationship in the show.

At least with them, they seem to have shared values and priorities. They believe in the same things, want the same things out of life, are comfortable in the same place. We may not have a sense of what they do for fun when they're not fighting the crisis of the day or what a normal conversation at the breakfast table might be about, but we at least have a sense that they're compatible. We've even seen them have conflict and work it out, finding a solution together rather than there being a winner and a loser. They function like a healthy couple. In contrast, it seems like any relationship anyone has with Regina results in her always winning in any conflict while the other person has to cave.

[Rumsy4]

15 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

True. But they never really defined soulmates. Maybe all it meant was great sex?

Or it means they can both dance on the eye of a needle. Let's assume whatever we want to prove our points. ;-) 

Quote

At least with them, they seem to have shared values and priorities. They believe in the same things, want the same things out of life, are comfortable in the same place. We may not have a sense of what they do for fun when they're not fighting the crisis of the day or what a normal conversation at the breakfast table might be about, but we at least have a sense that they're compatible. We've even seen them have conflict and work it out, finding a solution together rather than there being a winner and a loser. They function like a healthy couple. In contrast, it seems like any relationship anyone has with Regina results in her always winning in any conflict while the other person has to cave.

The more Charming/Snowing flashbacks we get, the more it seems like David just adopts the views of those who help him. Especially when it comes to Snow, he goes along with everything she says, even if he thinks it's idiotic. However, they are committed to each other and it's obvious that they will always put the other first. All I was saying in my previous post is that almost every other romantic relationship in the Show is painted with a shallow brush. If we went by the points you made on why SQ wouldn't work, any relationship that Regina has in the show ends up being one-sided becasue of the REC. It's not just her so-called friendship with Emma. In that sense, Regina could be romantically paired with anyone, and it would all be the same--bland, boring, and one-sided. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 6/14/2016 at 3:09 PM, Rumsy4 said:

If we went by the points you made on why SQ wouldn't work, any relationship that Regina has in the show ends up being one-sided becasue of the REC. It's not just her so-called friendship with Emma. In that sense, Regina could be romantically paired with anyone, and it would all be the same--bland, boring, and one-sided. 

That's one of the many downsides of Mary Sue writing -- in giving your character everything, you take away the potential to be interesting. She can't have deep, complex, mutual relationships when everything skews in her direction.

I guess some of the problem with knowing how relationships or friendships would go with any of the characters is that we don't know much about any of them. They never have time for fun, so we don't know what they do for fun. We know that Henry has the music and film taste of a 40-something man and likes comic books. Regina used to like horseback riding, but we haven't seen her on a horse in the present, and she only visited the Storybrooke stables when FrankenDaniel was there. Hook likes boats and the sea and indulges in gambling. That's about all the leisure activities that have been mentioned. They can't really have "normal" conversations because they don't have normal lives. We might talk about how our boss is driving us crazy, our neighbor is trying to seize power on the HOA board, and our kid is in trouble at school again. They'd talk about how Hades is driving them crazy, Rumple's trying to seize power, and Henry's trying to destroy magic again. We get to see some of that, and I suppose that's where we can measure the relationships.

We've seen a fair amount of Hook and Emma talking about what's going on and how they feel about it, with bonus points for him using his interest in the sea as a calming coping mechanism. We've seen Snow and David reassuring each other about what's going on when one of them can't sleep. We did see Robin and Regina talking about the "wait, I wasn't the special one?" letter, back when they first got together. I think we see more substantial friend conversations between Regina and Snow than Regina and Emma, which is why it's odd that the writers keep talking about the Regina and Emma "friendship." It's still mostly one-sided and consisting of Snow validating whatever Regina is up to, but at least they do talk about what's going on in their lives, while I don't feel like we've had anything like that between Regina and Emma. Mostly we get Regina monologuing at Emma or berating her. Aside from Snow having to grovel about Cora without a word from Regina about Leopold and that awful "adultery's not so bad" speech, I find the friendship between Regina and Snow rather interesting. Their scenes tend to be pretty nice -- not as good as they should be if it were more two-sided, but still better than most of Regina's scenes with anyone else, maybe because Ginny Goodwin radiates such warmth that it softens Regina, too.

[Camera One]

Unfortunately, I dislike Regina and Snow's scenes as much as Regina and Emma's.  Emma at least seems to hold her own (maybe because her personality is stronger, even when the dialogue suggests otherwise), while Snow almost always feels like a prop.  One egregious example is in "Witch Hunt".  Snow goes over to talk to Regina, and it's all about how Regina is missing Henry.  She even snaps at Snow, "I'm ALWAYS thinking about Henry".  Well, who cares about what Snow feels about losing Emma and Henry, eh?  A&E certainly don't.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Emma at least seems to hold her own (maybe because her personality is stronger, even when the dialogue suggests otherwise),

I've really only seen Emma hold her own with Regina post-S3 when she was a Dark One.

Edited June 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Both Emma and Snow are walkovers when it comes to Regina. Frankly, it makes me think less of all of them. The REC drags everyone around Regina down to the mud with her. 

[KingOfHearts]

34 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Both Emma and Snow are walkovers when it comes to Regina. Frankly, it makes me think less of all of them. The REC drags everyone around Regina down to the mud with her. 

It's still pretty hilarious that Robin dared to question Regina only to be quickly killed off. Either become a prop-up or you die. I guess Snow and Emma wanted to live.

Zelena better join the cheerleading squad. I don't want her to die. She's the only character I gave a crap about in S5.

Edited June 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Both Emma and Snow are walkovers when it comes to Regina.

And disturbingly, the latest episode had the worst transgression yet.  Making Snow and Emma the ones to tell Regina it was a good idea to drink the Jekyll juice and "kill" The Evil Queen?  It suggests sacrificing them on the altar of Regina will not be ending anytime soon.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

She even snaps at Snow, "I'm ALWAYS thinking about Henry".  Well, who cares about what Snow feels about losing Emma and Henry, eh?

That was pretty much when they lost me entirely with the character. Up to that point, I wasn't crazy about her, and her sad face about not being invited on the first family dinner of the people she's just kept separated almost made me quit the show, but she seemed to be kind of on a decent trajectory. But when she was able to do all her whining about Henry without once having a moment of empathy with Snow, not once realizing that what she was going through now was what she'd done to Snow, and now Snow was going through it again, I couldn't buy her redemption at all. She stopped doing evil, but she hadn't changed or become a better person.

Thinking now of that conversation between Regina and Robin I cited, I realize how one-sided it was. It was all about him supporting her. I guess he did get to talk about how he felt about losing Marian to her, but again we have the lack of empathy, where it never seems to dawn on her once she does her little mirror thing that she's the one who caused him that pain. She's angry at Emma for ruining her life, and she feels bad about not getting her happy ending, but she never feels bad that she caused pain to someone she supposedly loves. About the only time Robin got to talk about his feelings and got any kind of sympathetic ear from someone who listened without barging in about their own problems was when he talked to Hook about being excited for the baby but worried about letting Regina know. Hmm, maybe that's why Robin was willing to go to the Underworld for Hook. He was the only person who treated him like his feelings actually mattered.

[YaddaYadda]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

 

And disturbingly, the latest episode had the worst transgression yet.  Making Snow and Emma the ones to tell Regina it was a good idea to drink the Jekyll juice and "kill" The Evil Queen?  It suggests sacrificing them on the altar of Regina will not be ending anytime soon.

On the one hand, I understand why Emma was on board with the idea. She was the Dark One, she wanted the thing out of her. And let's face it, making that sacrifice and taking on the darkness wound up costing her a lot. So Regina talking about how she has to keep the EQ in check all the time or she will lose Henry and her friends sort of resonates with Emma.

On the other hand, nothing is ever that easy, and these people who are always fighting villains should know that better than anyone.

On my end of things, I'm a lot more disappointed with Snow than I am with Emma. Instead of having a fucking 5 minute monologue of Regina going on and on about how much her life sucks, maybe a conversation, and a debate about splitting Regina from the EQ (which I'm still not over) should have have happened. Whatever happened to making a list of pros and cons? 

Has Snow learned anything at all from the eggnapping, and taking someone's darkness out of them? Answer points to no.

I guess it's different than putting Regina's darkness into some poor unsuspecting vessel.

This is what bothers me, how willing Snow was to do this, and how this time, she's really the one who created the Evil Queen.

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

On my end of things, I'm a lot more disappointed with Snow than I am with Emma.

I'm actually on the opposite end of that. At least Snow has been shown to be naive about these kinds of things many times throughout the show's history, and the fact that she sees the world in a more black-and-white lens means she would be more accepting of the idea that we can split our personalities, unlike Emma who grew up in the real world and used to (before the REC destroyed Emma's rational thinking skills in Season 4) see the world through a more complicated grey lens. When Snow first met Regina, the person she was introduced to was a caring, brave, and kind horseback rider who risked her life to save a 10-year-old kid. First impressions can truly impact the way you view someone, so I could see that incident always being in the back of Snow's mind, and the fact that the Evil Queen seems like a completely opposite character compared to the person she first met would motivate Snow to believe that whatever darkness Regina succumbed to literally made her a different person who needs to be cut apart from the nicer version who rode horses. Unfortunately, unlike Rumple who actually had a personality-changing substance turn him into a darker entity, Regina did that all on her own because—somewhere deep inside her or maybe biologically—she has always been a slightly sociopathic person.

But with Emma, it's insane to me that she would agree to the Jekyll-split because she's supposed to be the real-world, well-adjusted person who understands that people can have many personality traits. And unlike Snow, her first impression of Regina was not pretty. In fact, the Evil Queen wasn't even in the picture when Regina attempted to kill Emma at the end of Season 1, so why would Emma agree that it was always the Evil Queen's fault when she knows first hand that Mayor Regina was the one who made everyone's lives miserable, nearly killed Henry with the intent to kill Emma, and teamed up with Cora to try and destroy the entire town? That's all on Regina, not the Evil Queen. Emma doesn't go around and say, "Hook, you did a bad thing today. I know that Killian Jones is there inside you, so let's split the Hook part of your personality away from your body so I can have Killian 24/7." Emma has accepted both sides of her boyfriend, so why is she willing to put Regina on a different standard? She did the exact same thing with Operation Dumbass, too. Damn REC.

[YaddaYadda]

@Curio, this is why it would have been good to flesh out what everyone's motivation (Emma's and Snow's) was for going forward with this. As usual, we are left guessing, and trying to make sense of it.

[Curio]

Exactly. What's worse is that the characters who would probably be opposed to the Jekyll-split weren't even consulted. Why didn't Emma talk to Hook about it? Why didn't Snow talk to David? Was Henry even informed? Why were Snow and Regina the only ones supporting it? It makes them look like idiots.

On a slightly more relationship-themed topic, I just caught up with the show UnREAL which features two strong female protagonist characters who are "frenemies." They blackmail each other, lie to each other, treat each other like shit sometimes, and yet the writers do a good enough job developing their work relationship to the point where I can understand why they still like each other at the end of the day and want to be in each others' lives. It's sad that I view Rachel and Quinn's totally toxic friendship as more realistic and meaningful than Regina's "friendships" with Snow and Emma.

[Camera One]

I don't think less of Emma nor Snow for it, because it took me completely out of the scene, and right away, I thought about the Writers and how they were destroying both Emma and Snow's integrity as per usual.  Snow has always blathered on about hope and self-assertion PLUS she saw the disturbing transformation and how wonky it was, so in what universe would she suggest that Regina drink that.  I'm still going to fanwank that Emma and Snow had an off-screen talk and they were both mortified that Robin Hood's death would surely send Regina over the edge (especially after Emma filled Snow in on how Regina hates doing good and wanted to strangle Hook), so they felt they had to do this or they would be working with a ticking time bomb for the rest of their lives and "What's the worst that can happen?  Regina drinks it and she dies?"  Rewatch the scene and assume Snow and Emma were crossing their fingers and hoping for something completely unexpected. To hell with unconvincing friendships.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, Curio said:

Exactly. What's worse is that the characters who would probably be opposed to the Jekyll-split weren't even consulted. Why didn't Emma talk to Hook about it? Why didn't Snow talk to David? Was Henry even informed? Why were Snow and Regina the only ones supporting it? It makes them look like idiots.

They're idiots mainly because like every other plan they come up with, this one failed too. 

You mentioned Henry, David, and Hook. What about Zelena. Zelena has become an important part of Regina's life. What does she think of her sister splitting herself like that after she just witnessed Jekyll and Hyde split. Why wasn't she there when it happened? Shouldn't Zelena have also been present? She is Regina's sister, an actual blood relation, and they made such a big deal out of fixing that relationship at Robin's and at OQ's expense, that I'd think Zelena should have been part of this.

Also, they never talk to Hook about anything because he tends to not be for these things, especially when it involves magic like that. Going to him about things like that is like walking into a wall.

[Curio]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

You mentioned Henry, David, and Hook. What about Zelena. Zelena has become an important part of Regina's life. What does she think of her sister splitting herself like that after she just witnessed Jekyll and Hyde split. Why wasn't she there when it happened? Shouldn't Zelena have also been present? She is Regina's sister, an actual blood relation, and they made such a big deal out of fixing that relationship at Robin's and at OQ's expense, that I'd think Zelena should have been part of this.

This is a really good point, and like you said, it's surprising Zelena wasn't involved because the majority of 5B was spent on developing the sisterly friendship between Regina and Zelena. They're the characters who got most of the meaty scenes in the Underworld, so why would we end the arc on a completely different relationship dynamic? It's like 4B all over again.

Zelena's input would have been really interesting because she, kind of like Hook, doesn't shy away from the fact that she's a terrible person. Those two characters don't split each other into two different entities in their minds, Zelena is Zelena and Killian is Killian. Zelena doesn't go around and say, "When The Wicked Witch...I mean when I did such terrible things in the past..." and Hook doesn't go around and say, "When Hook...I mean when I did such terrible things in the past..." Zelena and Hook should be slightly insulted that Regina tried to take an easy way out yet again when they had to work to change the hard way. That could potentially be a fun dynamic for Season 6, where Zelena and Hook are Team Anti-Jekyll Juice while Snow and Emma and Team Pro-Jekyll Juice. Hook and Zelena had some entertaining scenes together in 5A, so I'd be on board seeing the writers develop that relationship more.

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Also, they never talk to Hook about anything because he tends to not be for these things, especially when it involves magic like that. Going to him about things like that is like walking into a wall.

It's like talking to a brick wall that says logical and common sense things back at you, so you put your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la la la" even though you know the brick wall is correct.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

 it's surprising Zelena wasn't involved because the majority of 5B was spent on developing the sisterly friendship between Regina and Zelena. They're the characters who got most of the meaty scenes in the Underworld, so why would we end the arc on a completely different relationship dynamic?

They wanted Emma and Snow to validate Regina deciding to split The Evil Queen out.  They also wanted Emma and Snow to be complicit in the act that generates a brand new threat to Storybrooke.  Now Zelena can be all "Why did you listen to them!  Sistas forever".

[Dianthus]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 5:37 AM, Faemonic said:

Bwah! This. This is Hooked Queen in a Dianthus minute.

 

But yeah, my headcanon Regina would be too loyal to Rumple to want to get between Captain Hook and his Crocodile (but too loyal to Cora to not have a go at the Gold.) Besides, without magic Hook will always be minor league evil, but his attitude is less pliant than Daniel or Robin, so would that be worth it to Regina? I think she'd think about it and come out with an unconflicted "Nope!" Besides, Cora would turn our Captain inside-out and then make him explode if Regina liked him as more than a boytoy, because he doesn't even have a Lordship. 

Yay! Thanks for the shout out.

[KingOfHearts]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

 

They wanted Emma and Snow to validate Regina deciding to split The Evil Queen out.  They also wanted Emma and Snow to be complicit in the act that generates a brand new threat to Storybrooke.  Now Zelena can be all "Why did you listen to them!  Sistas forever".

Another questionable act gets the Snow White Seal of Approval. Thank you, REC!

[Shanna Marie]

I think one reason that the relationships are so one-sided is that they have very clear-cut distinctions between main characters and supporting characters, so that the story is always about the main characters. Only the main characters are really allowed to have goals, feelings, and issues, except maybe sometimes in a one-off when it's absolutely required for the plot, and even then it usually ends up being to serve the main character. So Snow gets to have emotions, conflicts, and goals, and David is there to support her without really having anything going on. Rumple gets goals and conflict and emotions, and Belle mostly serves to either give him motivation or to hold him back without having anything in her life that isn't about him. Robin was basically a blow-up doll with one of those pull strings that made him say, "Regina is bold and audacious!" while Regina gets all the story. Hook is the exception, as he seems to be somewhere between main and supporting, either a secondary main character or a main supporting character. The story is still more about Emma, and she's more likely to have goals, conflict, and emotions while he supports her, but he does occasionally have a story line of his own.

But then the Regina Exception Clause kicks in, and Regina becomes the dominant player in all relationships, even with other main characters. Snow and Emma exist to serve Regina's needs, console her about her feelings, and reassure her. Regina may even take priority over their other relationships (like Emma having to run off to do shots with Regina right after Hook almost died, or Emma having to take a road trip with Regina right after Hook returned from the dead -- yeah, the road trip was about stopping Henry from destroying magic, but the writers chose to throw Emma and Regina together at that point in the story). Rumple does seem to be an exception to the REC, as he barely acknowledges her existence unless he absolutely has to deal with her.

[Camera One]

Quote

So Snow gets to have emotions, conflicts, and goals, and David is there to support her without really having anything going on.

I don't think either of them have emotions, conflicts or goals, at least not since Season 2.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Rumple does seem to be an exception to the REC, as he barely acknowledges her existence unless he absolutely has to deal with her.

That's one thing I've loved about Rumple and Regina's relationship. They have this twisted father/daughter, mentor/student dynamic that never gets too weird. He's one of the few characters who is wise enough to see through her nonsensical perspective on life. 

Quote

I don't think either of them have emotions, conflicts or goals, at least not since Season 2.

Unless you consider the eggnapping conflict.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm curious to see how different Regina will be without that EQ part of her. Are her relationships going to improve? Is she going to be kinder to people? Not make fun of Hook's handicap? 

Or is she going to be her usual charming self? Because I'm guessing all the sass, and eye rolls, and whatever else is all the EQ, and we should be getting a Regina that's closer to pre-Daniel's death.

The Regina that confronted Hyde in the finale was very much the same Regina that I've had on my screen for 5 seasons. I saw zero difference between this "new" version, and the old version.

Snow is the only person who knew Regina before she changes, so I'm guessing she'll know. Rumple is the other person, but I'm guessing he'll be more interested in the EQ once he's back in town.

Edited June 18, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

The Regina that confronted Hyde in the finale was very much the same Regina that I've had on my screen for 5 seasons. I saw zero difference between this "new" version, and the old version.

That's what makes me wonder how much actual thought they put into this.

We'll probably see annoying scenes between EQ and Rumple, and EQ and Hyde chewing scenery.  Zzzzzz.

[YaddaYadda]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 

That's what makes me wonder how much actual thought they put into this.

We'll probably see annoying scenes between EQ and Rumple, and EQ and Hyde chewing scenery.  Zzzzzz.

I think there should be a very marked difference between Regina and EQ just like there is one between Jekyll and Hyde. Jekyll took his darkness out, he is meek, scared, I guess it's his Hyde part that balanced him out. Should be the same with the Regina/EQ relationship, because at the end of the day, it is a relationship. 

[Rumsy4]

56 minutes ago, Camera One said:

We'll probably see annoying scenes between EQ and Rumple, and EQ and Hyde chewing scenery.  Zzzzzz.

I'd ship Hyde Queen, but I think even Hyde deserves better than being with someone so whiny! But otherwise I agree. We'll see evil team-ups ala the QoD in S4B. 

Quote

That's what makes me wonder how much actual thought they put into this.

Quote

I think there should be a very marked difference between Regina and EQ just like there is one between Jekyll and Hyde.

Agree. But somehow I feel like Regina is going to be the same snarky insensitive person she ever was. And the EQ is going to be the scenery-chewing version we've been seeing in recent flashbacks.