Ask A BookWalker: Questions From The Unspoiled

[DrSpaceman]

One thing I have been wondering, how much time has passed between the beginning of season one and end of season 4? A few months? Several months, a few years? Its not easy to keep track of the timeframe based on the show.

[Maximum Taco]

One thing I have been wondering, how much time has passed between the beginning of season one and end of season 4? A few months? Several months, a few years? Its not easy to keep track of the timeframe based on the show.

 

Because there are so many child actors, the writers/creators decided that each season corresponds roughly to one Westerosi year. That way it's impossible for the actors to outage their character.

 

So 4 years have passed from the beginning of Season 1 to the end of Season 4.

[SeanC]

Because there are so many child actors, the writers/creators decided that each season corresponds roughly to one Westerosi year. That way it's impossible for the actors to outage their character.

 

So 4 years have passed from the beginning of Season 1 to the end of Season 4.

 

They aren't consistent with that. Sansa was 13 when the series started, but was only 14 at the end of season 3, for instance. 

[DrSpaceman]

Because there are so many child actors, the writers/creators decided that each season corresponds roughly to one Westerosi year. That way it's impossible for the actors to outage their character.

 

So 4 years have passed from the beginning of Season 1 to the end of Season 4.

 

Hmmm......thanks for the answer, though I agree while that may be their intent I am not sure that fits well with the timeline.

 

I just finished the season two rewatch in particular, that season was certainly not a year, they keep mentioning how close

Stannis is to attacking King's Landing

and it certainly didn't seem to be a year.  But then maybe you could say they jump ahead in Season 3 from the end of Season 2.  Certainly there could not be much of a time jump Season 1 to 2, but I could see Season one being a year long. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by SilverStormm
Spoiler tagged

[Maximum Taco]

They aren't consistent with that. Sansa was 13 when the series started, but was only 14 at the end of season 3, for instance. 

 

It's not exact. That's why I said roughly. There are some arguments to explain that too.

 

In season 1, Sansa was all about being grown up (old enough to marry Joff) and if she had just turned 13 (or was actually 12 and was close to turning 13) she'd be all about reminding everyone of that fact.

 

On the other hand in season 3 she had just been married off to Tyrion, so even if she had just turned 15 (or was close to turning 15) she'd be more inclined to say she was younger to squick him out a bit in regards to consummation.

 

[SeanC]

In season 1, Sansa was all about being grown up (old enough to marry Joff) and if she had just turned 13 (or was actually 12 and was close to turning 13) she'd be all about reminding everyone of that fact.

 

It's not a matter of what she said. The producers, etc. explicitly confirmed that she was 13.

[Meredith Quill]

This topic is for any unspoiled/TV only watchers to ask any specific question of Bookwalkers. Please ensure ALL responses are behind Spoiler Tags as the unspoiled will not want to know the answer to every question. Untagged replies will be deleted. Finally, for clarity please be sure to quote the question you are answering.

 

Essentially, other than the questions; this topic will look like many spoiler tags in a row!

[Lady S.]

One thing I have been wondering, how much time has passed between the beginning of season one and end of season 4? A few months? Several months, a few years? Its not easy to keep track of the timeframe based on the show.

In S1 it's repeatedly said that it's been about 17 years since Robert became king. In s4 during Cersei's stroll with Oberyn, they say Elia and her kids were killed 19 years ago, and Tywin's sack/Jaime's simultaneous kingslaying settled the question of Robert's claim. So the Baratheon dynasty is now 19 instead of 17 years old, meaning at least 2 but not yet three years passed from s1-s4. Ages and an exact timeline of events are indeed very fuzzy. The child actors have definitely all outaged their characters, though.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Lady S.

[Maximum Taco]

In S1 it's repeatedly said that it's been about 17 years since Robert became king. In s4 during Cersei's stroll with Oberyn, they say Elia and her kids were killed 19 years ago, and Tywin's sack/Jaime's simultaneous kingslaying settled the question of Robert's claim. So the Baratheon dynasty is now 19 instead of 17 years old, meaning at least 2 but not yet three years passed from s1-s4. Ages and an exact timeline of events are indeed very fuzzy. The child actors have definitely all outaged their characters, though.

 

 

Are you talking about the conversation in "The First of His Name?"

 

They don't say it's been 19 years since Elia's death, Cersei says she has been Queen for 19 years. This doesn't actually shed any light on the timeline, because I don't think it's ever stated when Cersei and Robert got married. It still matches up to the "1 Season = 1 Year" if Cersei married Robert 1 year into his reign.

 

Also I believe in season 4, episode 8 Littlefinger says that it has been 20 years since Robert became king.

 

So this paints a timeline such as

 

20 Years Ago (281 AL) - Robert's Rebellion

19 Years Ago (282 AL) - Cersei weds Robert

3 Years Ago (298 AL) - Season 1

2 Years Ago (299 AL) - Season 2

1 Year Ago (300 AL) - Season 3

Present (301 AL) - Season 4

Edited January 30, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Lady S.]

OK, I had it a bit confused but actually, Cersei does say she and Robert have been married for 17 years back in 1.05. (How long can hate hold a thing together?) And in 4.08 what Littlefinger says is that 20 years ago the Vale was fighting behind Jon Arryn in Robert's Rebellion, which fits the war lasting about a year (which we know it did because Stannis says that's how long he was starving in Storm's End and Stannis is not one for half-truths), before the Targs were all but wiped out and Robert became king. 

 

So,

280 AL Robert's Rebellion kicks into action

281 AL (298-17=281) Robert is officially king and Jon Arryn pushes him right into marrying Cersei 

298 AL mid-to-late s1 (Jorah's pardon is dated 298 AL)

early 299 AL mid-s2 (Cersei also tells Oberyn it's been over a year since Myrcella left, as opposed to 2 years.)

300 AL (281+19=300) mid-s4

 

Everything else is undefined, but as Sean C. said, Sansa's age is given twice, 13 in the pilot when Cersei asks and 14 on her wedding night when Tyrion asks her, so that's a pretty big failure if tptb were trying to avoid child actors "outaging" their characters. I've only ever seen them laugh about Isaac's and Sophie's growth spurts and say they're shooting the story as fast as they can but the child actors growing faster than their characters is an inevitable aspect.

[Conan Troutman]

I keep wondering how big the population is in this world. I originally assumed it might be one or two million in Westeros plus maybe a bit less in Essos. But then there's the fact that the Wildlings alone are about a 100 000 strong, in a probably not very densely populated area. Also we got that "beloved by millions" line in the trailer, which indicates that we're presumably talking more about at least 5-10 million overall, if not more. Are there any indications in the books? What's your take on it?

[SeanC]

I keep wondering how big the population is in this world. I originally assumed it might be one or two million in Westeros plus maybe a bit less in Essos. But then there's the fact that the Wildlings alone are about a 100 000 strong, in a probably not very densely populated area. Also we got that "beloved by millions" line in the trailer, which indicates that we're presumably talking more about at least 5-10 million overall, if not more. Are there any indications in the books? What's your take on it?

We have no idea about the population of Essos.  There no firm indicators as to the population of all of Westeros, but around 35 million is a common figure.

Edited February 3, 2015 by SilverStormm
All answers, whether considered spoilery or not MUST be tagged.

[Maximum Taco]

I keep wondering how big the population is in this world. I originally assumed it might be one or two million in Westeros plus maybe a bit less in Essos. But then there's the fact that the Wildlings alone are about a 100 000 strong, in a probably not very densely populated area. Also we got that "beloved by millions" line in the trailer, which indicates that we're presumably talking more about at least 5-10 million overall, if not more. Are there any indications in the books? What's your take on it?

 

The population of the entire continent has never been actually stated. But George RR Martin has given general analogies to the size of King's Landing and it having a population around 500,000. Oldtown is said to be similar, Lannisport is smaller than those 2 cities, Gulltown smaller still and White Harbor even smaller, but even White Harbor is said to have a year round population of atleast 100,000.

 

So just in those 5 cities alone there's atleast 1.5 - 2 million people.

 

Various estimates of Westerosi population are as low as 15 million, and as high as 75 million. However the 75 million estimate is said to be based solely on size of the continent and the population density of Europe in the medieval era. Which may not be accurate as the North, beyond the Wall, the Vale, and Dorne are obviously more sparsely populated than the Westerlands, Reach, Riverlands, Crownlands and Stormlands

Edited February 3, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[wayne67]

For those who have read the books is there ANY consensual sex scenes in the books?

 

I know the show has Rob and Talisa but I can't think of any others that wasn't steeped in arranged marriages with men twice their age, part of espionage, blood magic, prostitution and or coercion.

[AshleyN]

For those who have read the books is there ANY consensual sex scenes in the books?

 

I know the show has Rob and Talisa but I can't think of any others that wasn't steeped in arranged marriages with men twice their age, part of espionage, blood magic, prostitution and or coercion.

Well,

the Jaime/Cersei sept scene, while still twisted and disturbing, was consensual in the books, hense the huge outcry after that episode aired. Apparently it was supposed to be consensual on the show too, it was just a massive directing fail.

There's also Jon and Ygritte on both the show and the books(which I suppose technically falls under your espionage qualifier, but I'd still count it), as well as Dany/Daario (although I can't remember if we've ever had an actual sex scene from them in either, or just the pre/post-coital stuff) and Sam/Gilly. The only non-show examples I can think of off the top of my head are one in Dorne with two characters who were cut from the show and maybe one with Theon's sister? I'm probably forgetting something though. Or I've blocked something, because while GRRM has his strengths as a writer, perhaps the only place where all book fans meet in agreement is on the subject of his sex scenes, which are uniformly agreed to be terrible.

Edited June 22, 2015 by AshleyN

[Maximum Taco]

For those who have read the books is there ANY consensual sex scenes in the books?

 

I know the show has Rob and Talisa but I can't think of any others that wasn't steeped in arranged marriages with men twice their age, part of espionage, blood magic, prostitution and or coercion.

 

 

The only ones (that I can recall) that are definitely wholly consensual and based solely off their love for one another are

Cersei/Jaime, and Sam/Gilly. In Sam/Gilly's case there is a good deal of vulnerability too, but it's still based off their love.

 

I think all of the other sex scenes atleast partially fall into your categories of arranged marriage, espionage, blood magic, prostitution or coercion.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[MadMouse]

For those who have read the books is there ANY consensual sex scenes in the books?

 

I know the show has Rob and Talisa but I can't think of any others that wasn't steeped in arranged marriages with men twice their age, part of espionage, blood magic, prostitution and or coercion.

 

Asha Greyjoy and Qarl the Maid, Sam and Gilly, Jaime and Cersei

 

Edited June 22, 2015 by MadMouse

[morgankobi]

In the books, is The Hound dead, alive, or unknown?

[Maximum Taco]

In the books, is The Hound dead, alive, or unknown?

 

Unconfirmed. In the books Brienne finds a septon on the Quiet Isle who says the Hound is dead. But there are several hints that suggest that a novice gravedigger on the same isle is Sandor Clegane. Many readers speculate that this gravedigger is Sandor and "the Hound" that the septon speaks of is an aspect of Sandor's personality which metaphorically "died"

[wayne67]

Thanks for all the responses people

 

Ok so...

 

I'm going to discount Dany and Drogo because she's 13 and she never particularly wanted to marry or have sex with Drogo as far as I know but kind of just got used to it then convinced some servant to tell her how to seduce Drogo into less violent sex acts. Then she convinced herself she was in love with him because of coping strategies and she didn't have any other relationship to draw on but I'm still going to count it as rapey if not rape due to the description of....

 

"Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night . ."

 

That does not sound like good consensual sex because otherwise she would have told him that she was sore and he would have cared enough not to ride her 'relentlessly' while she cried.  I failed to see the romance in this relationship when the guy wakes you up to use you for sex when he feels like it but YMMV.

 

Jon and Ygritte let's see he kidnapped her, then her people kidnapped him and he decided that it was better to play along and have sex with her to convince the others that he had abandoned the black otherwise he would have his pretty throat slit. Then again he was supposed to be 14 ? at the time so underage sex, potential for death if he didn't so I'm going with non consensual with that too.

 

Jamie and Cersei... Well it's unclear if Cersei loves him or is merely using him hence his 'redemption' plus they're having incest babies and undermining the royal succession with treasonable acts against the King so I'm going to call that a wash.

 

Sam and Gilly ? hmmm doesn't she just have sex with him because she feels she owes him something for saving her life and her baby? Or is that the show giving me that impression.

 

Doesn't Yara or Asha fail to disclose to Theon who she is so she can essentially grope/sexually assault her brother knowing that if he knew who she was he wouldn't be keen which sounds fairly grotty to me. Also she has really weird sex with her supposed bf that comes across as yet another rape so who knows what that is about.

 

I don't know who Qarl the maid is.

 

Does GRRM include any peasants that have fun consensual sex ? or even royals or nobles ? I think the closest might be Loras and Renly but apparently GRRM didn't go into any detail about that because I guess describing heterosexual rape is more fun ?

[Delta1212]

Well, almost all the characters of any consequence are some level of nobility, and the few peasants that show up all interact with said nobility. There's pretty much no way that any relationship in those circumstances isn't going to have some political ramifications, so if you're defining consensual sex as involving no outside concerns playing into the situation at all, it's pretty much physically impossible for any of these characters to have consensual sex under any circumstances. There are just too few characters that are truly peers in terms of balance of power in any given circumstance.

Although as far as I can recall, that Sam/Gilly thing seems more like an impression from the show, as in the books it happened under quite different circumstances.

[MadMouse]

Thanks for all the responses people

 

Ok so...

 

I'm going to discount Dany and Drogo because she's 13 and she never particularly wanted to marry or have sex with Drogo as far as I know but kind of just got used to it then convinced some servant to tell her how to seduce Drogo into less violent sex acts. Then she convinced herself she was in love with him because of coping strategies and she didn't have any other relationship to draw on but I'm still going to count it as rapey if not rape due to the description of....

 

"Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night . ."

 

That does not sound like good consensual sex because otherwise she would have told him that she was sore and he would have cared enough not to ride her 'relentlessly' while she cried.  I failed to see the romance in this relationship when the guy wakes you up to use you for sex when he feels like it but YMMV.

 

Jon and Ygritte let's see he kidnapped her, then her people kidnapped him and he decided that it was better to play along and have sex with her to convince the others that he had abandoned the black otherwise he would have his pretty throat slit. Then again he was supposed to be 14 ? at the time so underage sex, potential for death if he didn't so I'm going with non consensual with that too.

 

Jamie and Cersei... Well it's unclear if Cersei loves him or is merely using him hence his 'redemption' plus they're having incest babies and undermining the royal succession with treasonable acts against the King so I'm going to call that a wash.

 

Sam and Gilly ? hmmm doesn't she just have sex with him because she feels she owes him something for saving her life and her baby? Or is that the show giving me that impression.

 

Doesn't Yara or Asha fail to disclose to Theon who she is so she can essentially grope/sexually assault her brother knowing that if he knew who she was he wouldn't be keen which sounds fairly grotty to me. Also she has really weird sex with her supposed bf that comes across as yet another rape so who knows what that is about.

 

I don't know who Qarl the maid is.

 

Does GRRM include any peasants that have fun consensual sex ? or even royals or nobles ? I think the closest might be Loras and Renly but apparently GRRM didn't go into any detail about that because I guess describing heterosexual rape is more fun ?

Qarl the Maid is one of Asha's reavers. He's the son or grandson of a thrall. She even thinks of marrying him but he's lowborn and knows their child wouldn't be accepted.

[Avaleigh]

Consensual sex--

 

How about Ned and Catelyn? Yes it was an arranged marriage but they clearly enjoy having sex with each other. Ned misses having her in his arms and Catelyn thinks about the "good ache" that she feels after sex with him.

 

I don't think Cersei's love for Jaime is unclear. If they hadn't loved each other IMO the situation wouldn't have been so long term and disastrous. I'd go so far as to say that this is one of the main consensual pairings of the series.

 

We don't get any sex scenes from Loras and Renly but we do hear about how they'd find time for a lot of "praying".

[wayne67]

Qarl the Maid is one of Asha's reavers. He's the son or grandson of a thrall. She even thinks of marrying him but he's lowborn and knows their child wouldn't be accepted.

 

Is a reaver GOT's version of a raider/viking etc? It makes me think of the Firefly versions which were scary... 

On a semi related notes how does the show measure up against the book . I hear the books are full of purple prose about clothes, settings and food.

Consensual sex--

 

How about Ned and Catelyn? Yes it was an arranged marriage but they clearly enjoy having sex with each other. Ned misses having her in his arms and Catelyn thinks about the "good ache" that she feels after sex with him.

 

I don't think Cersei's love for Jaime is unclear. If they hadn't loved each other IMO the situation wouldn't have been so long term and disastrous. I'd go so far as to say that this is one of the main consensual pairings of the series.

 

We don't get any sex scenes from Loras and Renly but we do hear about how they'd find time for a lot of "praying".

 

Do we get any scenes of them actually having sex though ? or is it merely referenced that she misses him ?

 

Perhaps it's really hard to dump your brother lover when he may tell on you to your King Maker father... lol

 

Coy references don't do much for me.

 

Now that I think about it what about Oberyn ? Does he get a sexy scene with anyone ? or is it merely referenced that he's a polyamorous sort of dude?

[Avaleigh]

The scene takes place just as they've finished and Catelyn thinks to herself that she hopes that she'll have a son from the encounter. Maester Luwin comes in shortly after and gets a glimpse of naked Cat after she decides that there's no point in being extra modest around him since he's the man who delivered all of her children.

 

ETA:

 

Just references with Oberyn AFAIR.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Avaleigh

[MadMouse]

Is a reaver GOT's version of a raider/viking etc? It makes me think of the Firefly versions which were scary... 

On a semi related notes how does the show measure up against the book . I hear the books are full of purple prose about clothes, settings and food.

Reaver is just an Ironborn raider. Qarl serves on Asha's ship.

  

 

When it comes to descriptions and world building the show doesn't come close to the books. But that's to be expected. A running joke in the fandom is Martin's love of describing food and nipples.

[Maximum Taco]

Now that I think about it what about Oberyn ? Does he get a sexy scene with anyone ? or is it merely referenced that he's a polyamorous sort of dude?

 

Each chapter in the book is written from the point of view of a character, so only these "POV" characters will get things like sex scenes since usually they'd happen in a private setting. So unless the character is a POV character, or is having sex with a POV character, or is watching, there's not gonna be a sex scene depicting him/her in the books.

 

Oberyn

is not a POV character, and in the books, like the show, he's reasonably dedicated to Ellaria, who is also not a POV character, so no sex scenes for them. He does talk about the possibility of Cersei in a threesome. Oberyn tells Tyrion that Cersei has offered herself (both sexually and possibly in a marriage) in exchange for a guilty verdict in Tyrion's trial, and Oberyn remarks that Ellaria wants him to accept because she has the hots for Cersei, but Oberyn says that he would rather be buried alive by scorpions.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

Maximum Taco, your post reminds me of the speculation from that season that

Cersei would give in and have a threesome with Oberyn and Ellaria to ensure the guilty verdict only to be unpleasantly surprised by having Oberyn turn on her and announce that he's going to represent Tyrion in the TBC.

[AshleyN]

On a semi related notes how does the show measure up against the book . I hear the books are full of purple prose about clothes, settings and food. 

I'd say they each have their strengths and weaknesses. D&D are much more focused and better at cutting to the heart of the story, whereas the biggest criticism of GRRM is that he goes off on tangents and that the books (in particular the last two) contain a lot of fat that really didn't need to be there. On the other hand, I feel like by cutting so much, the show loses some of the depth and complexity of the books, and some of the big moments don't have quite the same impact for me because it's lacking the same careful setup it might have gotten in the books. One big example from this season would be Theon's storyline,

which is pretty widely considered to be the highlight of the fifth book. The plot details are somewhat different, but more importantly his journey from "Reek" back to Theon happens much more slowly than on the show and involves a lot of introspection about his life up to that point and his relationship with the Starks and his betrayal of them. The result is that the moment where he finally breaks through Ramsay's spell and defies him ends up being a really powerful moment. I think that by streamlining so much of that story they lost some of the impact.

There's also the fact that you get a lot more history and details, simply because it's so much easier to include that kind of exposition in a book than a TV.

 

Also, regarding the sex scenes 

one thing to remember is that the books are told through a limited third-person POV, which switches between characters depending on the chapter. So the only sex scenes that will appear in them have to include one of a limited number POV characters.

Edited June 23, 2015 by AshleyN

[morgankobi]

Thank you to everyone taking the time to answer these questions!

 

I'm now currently roaming most threads (whee!) and have picked-up info that comes from before the events that began in Season 1. Do the books use flashbacks often, is it written in a non-linear fashion, do characters do a lot of exposition/narrative/info dumps, or is it some other thing?

[AshleyN]

Thank you to everyone taking the time to answer these questions!

 

I'm now currently roaming most threads (whee!) and have picked-up info that comes from before the events that began in Season 1. Do the books use flashbacks often, is it written in a non-linear fashion, do characters do a lot of exposition/narrative/info dumps, or is it some other thing?

Mostly the latter -- the reader has access to each POV character's internal monologue, so you get a bit of a history lesson whenever they think about the past. I don't recall a lot of flashbacks, but there are a few.

[Conan Troutman]

What the hell is up with  Margaery? And the rest of her family? I kinda like the Tyrells, at least I don't want them to go down like that.

[Conan Troutman]

In the books, is The Hound dead, alive, or unknown?

 

Not the books, but in my CK2 playthrough he's married to Cersei and they even have a boy who inherits whatever the Cleganes have. Awww. Mrs Cersei Clegane.

[Avaleigh]

Regarding dreams and flashbacks--

 

I feel like a lot of time is spent on dreams and that this sometimes goes into flashback territory because it reminds a character of x situation, that sort of thing. Specifics could end up being spoilery so I'll just say that when I think about a bunch of the main characters in the series I can instantly recall certain dreams that they've had. Off the top of my head I can think of ten characters who have had significant dreams so I'm sure that there are many more.

[Maximum Taco]

What the hell is up with  Margaery? And the rest of her family? I kinda like the Tyrells, at least I don't want them to go down like that.

 

You need to be more specific with your question. The answer to "What's up with Margaery?" could be a very long response, and may not answer exactly what you are asking.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[MadMouse]

What the hell is up with  Margaery? And the rest of her family? I kinda like the Tyrells, at least I don't want them to go down like that.

Margaery isn't a thirty year old woman in the books she's around seventeen and not as brazen in her schemes or disdain for Cersei. Loras isn't a gay sterotype he's one the best warriors in the seven kingdoms and a member of the KG. They also have two older brothers named Garlan and Willas. Garlan is even better with a sword than Loras and he has an awesome nickname " The Gallant" so he'll probably get an Ironborn axe in the back next book. Willas hasn't been seen but from all accounts he's a good man. He was crippled by accident in a tourney by the Viper but they became friends. Mace isn't a total buffoon since he's raised three children that aren't monsters but still understand the way this world works unlike the Starks. The QOT is awesome but full of it. She was turned down for marriage by a gay Targ. Dany's great uncle Daeron.

[nksarmi]

Regarding consensual sex:

 

I really think we should count couples who clearly came to enjoy their sexual relationships even if they started out under dire circumstances. For example, it is clear to me that Jon and Yigrette very clearly came to enjoy their encounters and I believe Dany also did with Drogo. I would also count Dany with her current lover as consensual (I also think it should be noted that in the books, the Meereen she marries pursued her, not the other way around).

I also think we should count Oberyn and Ellaria despite the fact that they are non POV characters since they were a lovely couple and very much consensual. I think at one point Cersei and Jamie count as does Ned and Catelyn.

Robb and his wife were consensual but I am not totally convinced she wasn't playing him from the start. I always went back and forth regarding how innocent she seemed in that whole ordeal.

I'm sure I can think of others if I gave it some time.

 

MadMouse - great summary - you reminded me why I like the Tyrells so much in the books even though I disliked their backing of Renly to begin with.

[Avaleigh]

Regarding consensual sex:

 

I'm sure I can think of others if I gave it some time.

Nksarmi, I was sure that I could come up with more too but there really aren't that many. I can think of a few couples who seem happy though. Garlan Tyrell and his wife, Davos and Marya, Alys and Sigorn, Mance and Dalla.

 

[Mya Stone]

Consensual sex...

LF and Lysa! Heh. Jon and Ygritte, too.

And as for the Hound...

Sandor totally lives.

[nksarmi]

Well honestly, I can't even remember all the books lol!

But I want to count couples like Mance and Val and probably other wildling pairings since women seem to get some say in who they pair with beyond the Wall.

Obviously this is a past one, but Tyrion and Tisha were clearly just young and in love in the books.

Do we know enough about Randall Tarly to make a judgment on him and his second wife?

We obviously don't know if we can count Lyanna and Rhaegar or not. I won't personally rule it out just because of her age.

There have to be some examples in Dorne besides Oberyn and Ellaria, don't there?

I do want to make one statement though - I think we need to stop using age as a precursor to rather or not something was consensual in GoT. For whatever reason, GRRM has created a world where one is basically an adult at the onset of puberty. I don't know if there is an age where one is considered a legal adult in his world, but it is clear that people are considered old enough to marry and bed in their early teens. So, yea, age alone doesn't make it count as non-consensual to me in his world.

Edited June 23, 2015 by nksarmi

[Maximum Taco]

Regarding consensual sex:

 

I really think we should count couples who clearly came to enjoy their sexual relationships even if they started out under dire circumstances. For example, it is clear to me that Jon and Yigrette very clearly came to enjoy their encounters and I believe Dany also did with Drogo. I would also count Dany with her current lover as consensual (I also think it should be noted that in the books, the Meereen she marries pursued her, not the other way around).

I also think we should count Oberyn and Ellaria despite the fact that they are non POV characters since they were a lovely couple and very much consensual. I think at one point Cersei and Jamie count as does Ned and Catelyn.

Robb and his wife were consensual but I am not totally convinced she wasn't playing him from the start. I always went back and forth regarding how innocent she seemed in that whole ordeal.

I'm sure I can think of others if I gave it some time.

 

MadMouse - great summary - you reminded me why I like the Tyrells so much in the books even though I disliked their backing of Renly to begin with.

 

The particular question was in regard to sex scenes though.

 

There are plenty of happy couples in the books who are obviously having sex with each other, but most don't have sex scenes because they aren't POV characters. For this reason couples like

Oberyn and Ellaria or Loras and Renly or Garlan Tyrell and Leonette Fossaway or Mace Tyrell and Alerie Hightower

don't count when answering the question. And for some who are POV characters, they aren't around their partner like

Davos Seaworth and his wife Marya

Edited June 23, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Elkins]

ETA: Never mind. I just realized that I reversed the order of two events in my memory. Carry on!

Edited June 24, 2015 by Elkins

[proserpina65]

The particular question was in regard to sex scenes though

 

Given how badly written the few consensual sex scenes are, the fewer of them, the better.  GRRM does not write sex well at all.  In fact, he stinks at it and I hope to the old gods and the new that I never have to read another one.

[blixie]

 

The particular question was in regard to sex scenes though.

 

Arys and Arianne is a consensual sex *scene*. Also the one that reminded me why I'm glad he doesn't write very many.

 

To give George some credit I think he's much better at selling romance, there are many "couples" I root for even knowing he can't deliver any kind of sexy time payoff.

Edited June 25, 2015 by blixie

[Maximum Taco]

Arys and Arianne is a consensual sex *scene*. Also the one that reminded me why I'm glad he doesn't write very many.

 

To give George some credit I think he's much better at selling romance, there are many "couples" I root for even knowing he can't deliver any kind of sexy time payoff.

 

You could argue that falls under coercion though.

Atleast partly, Arianne is seducing Arys to help her in her plot to crown Myrcella.

[blixie]

You could argue it, but I don't see it as coercive. At all. 

[wayne67]

I do want to make one statement though - I think we need to stop using age as a precursor to rather or not something was consensual in GoT. For whatever reason, GRRM has created a world where one is basically an adult at the onset of puberty. I don't know if there is an age where one is considered a legal adult in his world, but it is clear that people are considered old enough to marry and bed in their early teens. So, yea, age alone doesn't make it count as non-consensual to me in his world.

 

My issue is not that I'm trying to apply current age of consent laws to fictional characters in a medieval society in an alternate universe but that a 30 year old man marrying someone half his age makes it dubious as to whether it's a true meeting of the minds. I really don't see how it's romantic for a 30 year old whose main past times is to rape and murder people to buy a wife, use her for sex and then after a month or so to be seduced by her when she actually becomes a bit more dominant during sexy times.

 

I don't buy that as a romance no matter how it's spun.

 

It becomes more about power dynamics than character ages for me. YMMV

[nksarmi]

My issue is not that I'm trying to apply current age of consent laws to fictional characters in a medieval society in an alternate universe but that a 30 year old man marrying someone half his age makes it dubious as to whether it's a true meeting of the minds. I really don't see how it's romantic for a 30 year old whose main past times is to rape and murder people to buy a wife, use her for sex and then after a month or so to be seduced by her when she actually becomes a bit more dominant during sexy times.

 

I don't buy that as a romance no matter how it's spun.

 

It becomes more about power dynamics than character ages for me. YMMV

You know I really had to read that a second time because at first I thought you were talking about R&L and then I realized it was Drogo and Dany.  It's hard to be clear on those two because

GRRM clearly writes their first encounter as consensual and later implication is that she isn't enjoying it but its less about rape and more about that is just how he knows to have sex - except he did it different the first time so WTF? But, I do believe that by the end of it Dany loved him, enjoyed the sex, and it was definitely consensual between them. So I don't count them as a rapey couple.

 

However, the Dothraki are definitely ok with raping "sheep" on the show and I believe in the books. So, that is a hard pill to swallow, but I wouldn't call that his main pastime. Fighting was probably his main pastime. :)

[MadMouse]

That's one of reasons why I was hesitant to include Jon and Ygritte. There's a clear power imbalance there and age difference. She clearly is pushing him into it and had he not had sex with her he'd be killed. If the genders of the characters had been switched there'd be no question

[wayne67]

You know I really had to read that a second time because at first I thought you were talking about R&L and then I realized it was Drogo and Dany.  It's hard to be clear on those two because

GRRM clearly writes their first encounter as consensual and later implication is that she isn't enjoying it but its less about rape and more about that is just how he knows to have sex - except he did it different the first time so WTF? But, I do believe that by the end of it Dany loved him, enjoyed the sex, and it was definitely consensual between them. So I don't count them as a rapey couple.

 

However, the Dothraki are definitely ok with raping "sheep" on the show and I believe in the books. So, that is a hard pill to swallow, but I wouldn't call that his main pastime. Fighting was probably his main pastime. :)

 

Lol I don't even know who R& L are supposed to be so that was completely unintentional of me.

 

I'm not saying Drogo and Dany's whole relationship was non consensual, she consented the first time because it was her wedding night and it seemed like she felt obligated to because she was still under her brother's thumb. So I'd put the first as unenthusiastic consent as it wasn't really her desire to get married to a Dothraki warlord in the first place because as far as I know she'd never done anything with a guy before. So it's a bit of a radical jump to go from never had a bf to married within the span of a year of achieving the basic requirement for puberty.

 

Then after their wedding night it seemed like Drogo considered the necessity of asking null and void after her first consent and it became dubious consent simply because he never asked and she never outright said no but her general dispositions of being saddle sore and suicidal doesn't lend much weight to her being happy with the sexual relationship. Then when she had her 14th nameday she decided that now she was married she was going to take charge of her sex life. From then on I would say she was an active participant in her own sex life and then their relationship grew from there on a more mutual basis before that though the foundation was super dodgy.

 

It's not that she was an underage participant based on today's laws but that she wasn't really a participant that had much in the way of sexual agency that bothers me about the relationship. Kind of how in Beauty and the Beast "romance" started with a kidnapping and unlawful imprisonment (though since he was royalty, laws may have not meant much to him either) . Maybe it's because I'm a guy I'm not sure where the romance applies.

 

As to raping... Did the Dothraki rape the women in the Sheep Village in the books ? I'm just kind of assuming that Drogo's pre Dany life featured raids on other villages which would include killing the men and raping the women. Hence why the purchase of the Unsullied as the only non raping army in the world came up...

 

On an unrelated note could someone list the POV characters for me ? So if I ever read the books (I probably will when the series finished but not before) I know which chapters are boring and can be skipped without losing much of story.

Edited June 26, 2015 by wayne67